"Murder Rap" The Greg Kading Episode

wherever you may be listening from. This is another episode of the Gangster Chronicles and you're listening to Alex Alonso and I'm here with my co host James McDonald and James, let's just get right into it, man, We've got it. We got a guest here that probably one of the premier experts on the murders of Tupac and Biggie Smalls. He is also uh he led an investigation task force investigation into these into these homicides back and I think

two thousand six. Uh. He's a detective retired from the l a p D. And he wrote a book entitled The Murder Rapped, The Untold Story of Biggie Smalls and two pox of core murder Investigations. And I believe this book also inspired the TV show called Unsolved. And we have none other than Greg Hating retired l ap D. Thanks for coming down, man, Hey, thanks for having me. Man took a while. James, Hey, hey, you're a busy man.

Well you gether. That hard for him to know. He doing a lot of work and he's always on the airplane, much more than I would love to be. But yeah, Greg took me to Australia. Just the first guy that ever took me out to stay out anywhere as far as that matter. Very good friend of mine. Man, I really appreciated me. Helped me out a lot with a lot of stuff. Um, I don't think it can get no better. Fathers, meeting somebody and then just just having a friendship. You know what I'm saying that you know

in Australia, I've seen and I was. I learned a lot, not only with Greg but with his son, with his wife Donna. Donald was the family to Australia. Yeah, we all went out there. They fell in love with James Man so he's kind of now they're adopted. They're adopted uncle. Okay, Well, before we talking to the what everybody wants to hear about, and which I'm sure you spoke about many many times, Uh, talk about how this Australia tour thing came about. And

this is kind of an unusual talk about that. Greg. Well, originally I had gone over to England and Ireland do a little presentation over there, and then some folks in Australia decided that they thought it might be worthwhile to go down there. A guy named Nick Noonon was the promoter of the show who we had on. He was a guest on The Gangster Chronicles, wasn't he he came, he said, yeah, he said, okay, so you know Nick, Yeah, So he put in a lot of hard working effort

to get this thing going down in Australia. And I had always thought that there has got to be a different voice to this story. And you know, I can talk about it from the law enforcement perspective, but this story also needs to be told from the from the street perspective and the environment in which all this stuff took place. And so that's why, you know, the natural collaboration with James was just a you know, that was

an easy transition. I had first met James actually in two thousand and seven, while I was still investigating the case. I went out to Las Vegas and we had a chance to sit down and you know, I was just comparing some notes and trying to get some information to further our case. So it hasn't been short while. It's been thirteen years. And that was the beginning stages of the task force investigation that you led right when you

met James. Yeah, we were just a year into it, because we started in two thousand and six, and then it was the following year that we got around to trying to, you know, help reach out and get get some help from people that we had been struggling with to get that door open. And you know, I thought, hey, well I got this guy, James McDonald's what we can tell, you know, is everything there is to know about death Row, and um, perhaps he can contribute. And it took more

than a decade before you guys came together. He was the first I ever did a a a black like a black interview. I did an interview with he was the first one. That's the first one I saw. Actually, yeah, that that's the first one period. That was the best. Nice I think you put together a thirty minute clip of James. I'm sure the interview was a little longer, but that's the one where I was like James put it down in this interview. It was it was pretty.

It was easier to sit down because I did it at his home and then, uh, I mean I was more comfortable than I was just sitting in the little in the little room, YadA YadA. And then it was easier because the questions that they had for me written down all I had to do it. I don't want to. I don't you know what I'm saying. So I knew what I was gonna be talking about the questions they was gonna ask. And I had my nephew there and

he learned something from it. So I didn't know that it was gonna be what it was after I did the interview with him, because after that interview, so many people started calling and and wanted to do an interview. Well, that interviews almost had a million views now, right, nine hundred some thousand plus, Yeah, and he never called me back to do another one. So that was cool. Now, Like you know, I got so many people want to do an interview. I mean from from everywhere. The farthest

is BBC. So I mean that interview just made me. It made me feel a whole lot better because I got a lot of ship off my chest, talking to them and and and helping and a lot of people seeing, uh, the pain that I was going through and all that. So it was easy. Were there any questions that Greg wanted to ask you that you didn't want to answer and that you would answer? Oh, no, no, no, no, what I what I didn't want to answer? Then I wouldn't answer. Now, no, there's something that would be told,

not sold and not told and not gold and not that. No, y'all can cut that part up. And did you understand his issues with probably some of the questions that he didn't want to address with you on camera. Oh yeah, well, back the well, back in two thousand and seven, it was, you know, basically the same thing that we've been encountering throughout the case. It was just, you know, there's there's things to be taken into consideration when you're talking to

the police. And so for James, obviously that was something that he had to um uh years later. Let's just say this, when when we ultimately sit down and have an on camera interview, a lot have evolved, a lot had changed then it was back in two thousand and seven, and so for us, you know, it's like finally kind of the armors being cracked a little bit you and then once you can build u the foundation of trust

and respect which we didn't previously have. I was just the cop and he was just the guy from death Row, and you know, we weren't in a position at that time to get real. And so as time went by and we ultimately got to know each other, and I think he felt that I was somebody that can sit down and talk to then the doors opened. Was that your first interview ever? Ever? Ever? And that interview changed me? Period.

It changed a lot of things about me. Uh, it helped me unleash a lot of in your head, especially with my brother. Uh, I was dealing with a sure knight was. I hated him so much at that time, you know what I'm saying, And it just it just helped me. You know, I said a lot of things that I didn't want to say to other people, and I wasn't gonna never say. But when my mom's teld me it was time to maybe you need to talk

and get it out off your chest. And I did that and it worked and should look at me now, I mean I'm sitting there really talking and expressing my feelings and everything out to not just only my family,

but people all over the world. I don't know if Greg knows us, but that interview you did with James catapulted him to be right here, right now doing this podcast, because that's really what got the ball rolling, because that led to other interviews, led to other interviews, which led to the producer seeing him and him and blad Man. I shout out to Blad They both they it worked for me. It worked for me. Now I'm not gonna actually talking just like man, just tell everybody everything now

before we get into some of these other questions. Um, was the Australia tour success in terms of financial and when you guys continue and go to other cities? To me, it was yeah. To me, it was I mean, you know, we talked about the only instant and I had which the people in Australia fixed that I didn't have to say anything, and the love I was getting from Greg and his family, and then you know, with with Nick and everybody out there. Man, I've seen different people talk

to different people different places. How many places we went to? Hey, we had six cities and and all of them was brand new to me. So I was loving it. Yeah, I mean, you know, you gotta brother out here. Just everything's uh squeaky clean and everybody was nice and I loved it. So what's what's next? Where to go next? Well, we gotta call yesterday, um, potentially to go to Scotland,

so that would be cool. I've been over to the UK before, but I've never been to Scotland, so I'm looking forward to getting an email later on today and you know, trying to figure out the logistics of it all. But I'd like to take take James out there and do the same thing. It's interest in the Park and Biggie Hamasa. It's stronger abroad than it is here in the US because maybe too many Americans are just tired of hearing about it over and over where a tour, a multi city tour in the US might not be

as successful as going to Europe Australia. Yeah, well you know these guys, both Park and Big or just their international superstars, you know, and so it's really interesting, you know, like in Germany, Um, Biggie's more popular. It's it's a it's a it's a strange thing that there's these just different little dynamics that take place at different places around

the world. In Japan and all of these, you know, places that don't even speak a common language, are still these guys are iconic, and their superstars and so and then of course the mystery surrounding their deaths is another whole area of interest to people. So I don't know if it's more popular over there than it is here. I just do know that this story never seems to

fade out. It doesn't seem to die, and there's always a insatiable appetite to know more about it and to learn more about these guys, both as human beings and as artists, but also about hopefully finding some closure and what happened in there in the end. I don't think the story will ever fade because these guys were in

their prime when they were murdered. You could actually say they were the number two and number number one and number two rappers on Earth, which is kind of crazy that you're number one and number two rappers get murdered within six months of each other. That's a story to tell for the next hundred years. So I don't think he'll ever die down. I don't, I don't. I mean, you got new documentaries being made right now on to day about two parking Biggie. What more is it to

till about two parking Biggie. They've been going twenty three years, you know what I'm saying, but it's still coming. And like in Australia, the people were way different. They aspect was way different than what we have now. They was like so stoked about it. They you know, wanted to hear and wanted to understand the story of why. So I think that's what was was was good for us

out there in Australia. We brung let's stay closer to some people or some people had a better understanding after the show was over or what really happened, because why Greg was was talking and he said and showed on on this on this uh just uh yeah, now they see from his aspect of it, then from me coming in and then they listened to where I was coming from and why these guys was getting killed and why

things was happening in his neighborhood. They was pretty much kind of like blowed away, you know what I'm saying. And I thought, man, it was it was the people out there wanted more than what you got out of here. Well, I want to talk about the the live slow Burn

I guess presentation that it was crazy. But before we get into that, I just want to let all the listeners and viewers know that this is episode forty five of The Gangster Chronicles and for those who are listening to us on iTunes, please give us a rating and review. We're also available on Google Play for Samsung and Android users, Spotify as well, and you could also listen to this show. My mom is actually using Alexa, so if you have an Alexa, just just say it. Just say Alexa play

the Gangster Chronicles and it will come up. And you could also listen and follow the show on the Himalaya app. Just go to your app store and download the free app. Himalaya has a red icon with the letters Hi in it and you can follow us there and you can

watch video portions of this show. Um the Digital Soapbox Network which you're produced by Smooth Cut Productions, and on that platform we also have merchandise for The Gangster Chronicles T shirts, hoodies and at cetera and um so last night was extremely interesting conversation between you, Greg Hatting, the author of Murder Rap, and also with Randall Sullivan, the

author of Labyrinth. Um Russell's book came out first and then yours came out actually within the last five years, I think, and James, these two were going at it last night. It was so it was so damn funny. But if people this was what people need to see, just that little bit last night, what you need to see. Not not taking up for you, but I got all these documents right here. Yeah, this is what you have.

You know what I'm saying. So you can't you you there was no way for him to investigate all this ship that that was being you're talking about Sullivan Sullivan, So how did you come up? And I thought we was gonna be able to, you know, do a little que and they were a mother get up and say something because I wanted to say something bad. Where'd you getting your information from? And that's what people fail to realize.

Like I told the guy I did the show was over, the one that was up there, I didn't know his name that did the show, where do y'all get your information from? Everybody keep talking about how they're doing the information, how to how to gather information, and they're talking to these people and talking to these people when the hell y'all talking to y'all. The only way y'all could talk and get something is like, how Greg did talk to the people that were involved. You can't talk to people

that weren't there. How can you come to California and say you got information on on what happened on the third of nineteen seven. You you don't have no clue. You wouldn't there, you was at home. You just flew out. Well to Randall Sullivan's defense, and I'm not defending him or the book, he did have an l a p D detective, just like grag Hating was. That was his main source. And we're talking about Russell Pool. So he feels very confident. I got an l APD source, a

detective Russell Pool. Greg Cating's a lap D. He wrote his book. So it's kind of like a battle of ideas they should be. But I'm sure right now Greg is gonna explain to us why they weren't on the same page. And I just want to shout out Joel Anderson, who was moderating between you and Randall. Um, So go ahead, tell tell James and I why you guys, Russell Pool and Randall Sullivan are not on the same page. And Russell Pool is no longer alive. For those who don't know,

he died of natural causes several years ago. Right, So Russell Pool back at the time that Biggie was murdered, shortly thereafter him and his partner inherited their responsibility of investigating the case. And then russ is only on it for a short period of time relatives less than a year, less than a year. And you know, he had some leads that he needed to fall up, follow up on, and as a result of some of the information that

he was attaining, he began to draw these conclusions. And through that process, because of things that were happening in his own personal life and his professional life, he was removed from the task force. And so he only had this nine or ten months to work with and not to you know, not to h criticize anything that he did. He was just going through the motions. But I, in contrast, I was ten years down the road, and so I

had the advantage that he never had. I had ten years of investigative effort to evaluate, assess, and then look back. I could see everything from hindsight. He was limited to this this perspective that he saw for nine months. I had ten years, and in that period of time. Over that ten years, there was multiple ever their investigations going on.

There was a huge racketeering investigation of death oh by the FBI and the a t F. They were interviewing all kinds of people, and a lot of the information that was contained in that investigation affected or had influence on the murder investigations. And then of course the Rampart scandal came out, and then all these allegations about cops being involved in Biggie's murders, and so that whole investigation

I had access to. So I had things that Randall soul I'm sorry that both Randall Sulivan and Russell Pool couldn't have dreamed of, you know, having at their disposal in order to get a better picture of what took place. They were limited, and from that limited perspective they drew conclusions, and these conclusions were demonstrably wrong, and they then began to advocate allegations against people that were factually innocent. And

that's where I take issue. I don't have a problem with somebody having an opinion about it, going out and doing your own research, you know, whatever, but before you start false the accusing innocent people of these heinous crimes, you got you better have your fucking facts straight. Can you give us some specific examples of that. Who were some of the people that he was thrown under the bus, whether that be Russell Pool or Randall Sullivan, well both

of them collectively. Um, you know Shrita Knite for one, you know, being accused of being involved in in in uh In Sugar's attempted murder. Uh, it's just it's it's ludicrous. Reggie Right, you know, obviously Reggie Right, it's no saint. He's a person that it should be accountable for things that he's done in his life. But I've also got to vindicate Reggie Right, because I know for a fact

he had nothing to do with these crimes. And in fact, Reggie was very helpful in the process of this investigation. Reggie had been interviewed a dozen times by different people from different agencies. And one thing that I can say about Reggie is that we never found him to lie. He wasn't always entirely truthful, he wouldn't tell us everything he knew, but he never lied. He never sent us

down the wrong path, the wrong direction. I respected that, I understood that he couldn't tell us some things because he's got his own life and issues to deal with.

But he never he never lied and uh And then of course the most um affected by all this was an individual name Amir Mohammed who was was a close friend of David Max who was this disgraced l a p D. Detective Harry billips Man in the cloud of suspicion that he had to live under as a result of the claims that were in Labyrinth and as a result of the claims that Russell Pool and uh Um

Randall Sullivan continued to publish. It was just irresponsible, reckless and you know, in my opinion criminal a question, now, would it be safe to say that all the things that was going on with the police department are in the police department? Did that throw the police department off the investigation off of of trying to catch the Tupac and Biggie uh killers, because it seemed like more the police were more at it then they you know, they wasn't like they were more at it with each other.

Like this guy, he was such a dick last night. I keep forgetting his name. I don't even want to remember. Yes, he was such a big I mean he was very irritating. I don't know if he irritated you, but just not to let no one talk. But I mean, do you think just back to where I was at that what was going on in the police department, did that have anything to do with your investigations? And but yeah, I mean there were distractions that place. The rampart thing, there

was a distraction. There's a lot of unnecessary um time spent um going down dead ends. So do you think that's why people was looking at saying that the police one of the theories that the police killed uh Biggie Tupac. Well, you have to follow up on those leads, you know, when information comes in and if it's circumstantial or compelling, like for instance, just this is what happened with David Mac.

David Mac commits a bank robbery right shortly thereafter. He's posing in a picture and he's got this red fedora hat on, he's got this red suit on and his prison letters that he's sending home. He's Westside riders and people in prison that he's selled up with. He's he's gang straight up and so okay, what's going on with this guy? And then you have other jailhouse informants coming forward and going, yeah, David Mac told me that he

is involved in Biggie's murder. You know Sugar. He attends parties with Sugar, and so we don't know if that's true or not. That we have to go through the motions of determining where it is and invalidating that information. So you have to go through those motions, and but you can't draw conclusions just off what a jail house

informant tells you. And in time, um, at least with this case, all of these guys turned out to be lying because they were motivated by like, well, I'm trying to move out of this prison in order to get closer to home, so and go to this prison. They all had their own motives and uh, you know, this was a high profile case and they thought if they threw their name in the half that law enforcement would

help them with their situations. That was the game that was played on more than one occasion and with more than one informant, and that really muddied the waters. That made it very difficult to stay on track with the investigation because you're constantly going in these different directions based on these these claims. I have a follow up, woman, We've got to follow him up, you know. So you know, David mac was somebody that needed to be looked into.

But at the end of the day, uh, you know what I found with guys like Russell Pool and guys like Randall Sullivan, once they develop a theory, they dig their fucking heels in no matter what information refutes their theory. Typical policing, I find that in a lot of cases

that I work. One when we investigate a particular defendant and we find out, maybe you should look at this other defendant, they're stuck on who they think did it, and they're going to trial with it no matter whatever evidence we present to them the show hey, this guy might be innocent, but this other guy might be worth looking at. They don't want to look. Yeah, it is unfortunately,

don't know if that's a human condition or what. But once you've invested in something, you don't want to accept the idea that ship I was wrong, and I put a bunch of time and energy and effort into something that is ultimately wrong. And so I think that that is often the case, And and this is what I've always said about Russell Pool. You know, I'm not here to shoot on the guy. I'm just saying that he

lost his objectivity. And it's very clear through what happened in this investigation that he formed a conclusion built on selective information, and he dug his heels and said this is what and and that led to people being falsely accused. And actually I actually believe that Amer Muhammed was the triggered person of Biggie for a couple of years and it felt, it felt real. They linked them to an ss apollo somehow, some kind of way. Um. They said

he dressed like the Nation of Islam. They had a compositive sketch that looked like Amir Mohammed, and I was like, okay. And then years later I find out about um pooch and that the pooch theory sounds way more plausible than the Amir Mohammed. But yeah, I believe that Harry billips Mohammed was the killer in the beginning. Yeah, and a lot of people did. Because you were only you were only given the information that supported that narrative. And that's

what the book does. It just gives you the information that supports that narrative. What the book doesn't, what Around the Sun's book doesn't tell you, is that that information came from a clinically diagnosed schizophrenic, you know, and who was in prison and had a bunch of his own um psychological issues to deal with, and right off the bat he was discredited by the l a p d. As a reliable source. In that case, he lost his pension, He lost everything, and just for his case, he dedicated

hisself for that, I mean he did. He quit the police war. Yeah, he walked away prematurely. He was just less than a year short of his pension, which goes to show you where he was at Manor. You know, he lost his objectivity, He was frustrated with the department. He saw everything as a big cover up, and in fact it was just these are the natural processes of these investigations. You know, in law enforcement, there's um all kinds of different um protocols that have to be followed.

You know, there's checks and balances, and he just didn't fully understand that evidently and walked away from the job. I say this, if they investigated every murder of a black man or a teenager, that that we have every

day then we it wouldn't be no more crime. Now, Gregg, did you ever track down Amhammed and interview him and talk to him, because I don't think we've ever seen him give an interview where I don't think you've ever publicly spoke to just clear his name, to say you don't have to clear his name and his name is not saying well, well to both your points. I have spoken to him at length, and I've asked him. I was like, hey, and uh, this is what I did with Reggie back in the day. I was like, Gregg,

you need to get out there and defend yourself. You know, you've got to let people out here questioning whether you are actually involved in these things, and the best to advocate for your defense is you, So get out there and start defending yourself. And he did, and I think he made some headwight. I think that he was able to sway people's opinions. But to him getting indicted, I didn't marijuana have kind of made it. It didn't might have been a step backwards from here to defend the show.

But you know the truth of the matter is just because you do something wrong doesn't necessarily mean you did you know? And that's always been my point is that we all make mistakes and that but because we make mistakes, that doesn't necessarily mean that, uh you know that we that we're cold blooded murders. And that's the equation that people dry will look at Reggie right Jr. He's a

drug trafficker. Well it makes sense to you then, I believe it don't matter whether you're police, are firement whatever occupation you hold, don't mean you don't have that that gainst mentality in you, you know what I'm saying. And Reggie got a little I'd say, Reggie and everybody else do the David Max of of today. You got cash that that firemans will shoot you. You know what I'm saying. It don't take nothing to have against mentality, you know,

it just all depends on the individual. Well, I never believe Reggie Wright had anything to do with any of these shoes, just it just never the dots never connected from me. Yeah, and there was never a time within law enforcement that he was a suspect either. So how did this other than Randall's book and and um, it's all through jail house informants. They were throwing Reggie under the bus. So those guys all had an incentive, I guess,

to try to get out of jail early. But when you throw out a foul theory does not help the the inimating custody, does it, um, It really depends. Most of these guys are you know, known snitches, so they you know, they're in protective housing. A lot of times we gotta take this call. I'm sorry to cut you. Let me just I got Reggie right, this call liquid and the subject to monitory hang up to decline the call.

What do you accept? Nile five? Now? All right, so ladies and gentlemen, we got a call from Reggie Wright Jr. From a federal correctional facility. What's going on, Reggie? You tell me? Hey, the first thing I wanted. The first thing I want to say is that that video that you and John on bomb First were talking about had nothing to do with me. You already know, Oh, he already knows. Okay, apologize to you. Yeah, yeah, John sent me. He sent me a text message apologizing, but I don't

think we addressed it on the Gangster chronicles. Well, I just wanted to say, never said any of those things had nothing to do with me. I don't know if it's because the other guy's name is Alex, I don't know, but yeah, we got hey, we got Griggs sitting here with us. All right, man, I'm gonna talk Jane, come on, because you called me. Tell him how how he thinks

only Gang Vegas is Jesus stuff. I heard he's been on land and the landa and you know how Ship was a whim herself growing up and didn't have no street creds him and Nick Cannon then they comes and depending over on land stuff, and um, we say, I said she didn't have no street cred. Yeah, but anyway, we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk to Greg. Katie's great. Well Greg. Greg didn't have a mic right now, so so it's not gonna be uh unless we can.

There you go, Greg out a mic, now, let's call let's yeah, as long as they could hear me, because you know, to be honest and nigga's broke, I only got a twelve two minutes left from my phone. So okay, well before you do that, dude, I got some stuff out. I know, shut up, you know, and to shut up over here. I got something for your twelve minutes. Check this out, gangst the chronicles is your family right, I don't want to you're gonna listen or your twil minutes

gonna be fucked. Let me tell you something, dude. If you don't call me, if you don't write me, and you don't watch calling, we're stopping your motherfucking check. I am a Hollywood upset that you don't call and say nothing to me. Nothing I said Texas to you don't have my wife? Said Texas your wife? Your wife? Yes? She did? You know what's her last week? You know? Dr Greg? If I don't get it, if I don't

get a letter, talk to Greg? You any how many peal when uh uh uh they did quick this thing in front of the everybody, the source of awards and all of that, and you're honestly talking, I'll be having question of industry questions. How does being nice and cool with everybody? I got the questions to keep going to here? Okay, that's and that's why you take that ship to bomb first. You know, Cody Doug, I don't have opinion on Yeah, you got opinion on gains the coronal. That ain't what

I'm saying. Are you being serious now? Are you just talking ship? Hey, reg. One of the things we're gonna talk about with Greg all the ridiculous theories in these uh homicides, and I guess the Reggie Wright theory as being involved, and we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about that, and I'm sure Greg has some things to say about how that's one of the dumbest theories

that anyone put out there. Let me have some let me let me talk for questions and and then and then for the other drifting, then we can go over that the fucking Then I want to make sure you go over with Greg for me. Go ahead, Uhcative producer James mccumb now, go ahead, go ahead, Rex. You only got about nine minutes. Yeah, cool, all right? Uh um, Greg,

how you doing? Then? When I want, I want to tell you your boy James, uh he spoke real highly and how will you and his wife said his son treated him over in Australia and he came back with a lot of praises respect for you guys man from that Australia. True, I appreciate that, young good time, you know. Yeah, but if you could also addressed to the people, probably uh, well, I want to tell y'all talk about Jeane de overre being getting this roles lately about me. If you know

people been here about that. I heard about that, but I know Greggy heard about that. I don't care about that. And then I wanted you to also just may to the people, why uh why you guys? You know that your Jean uh deal the third picture, you know, the other picture for the third time. But that's what his big claim of fame is how everybody grew up because he picked out somebody another picture that was shown to him.

And you don't understand how this credibility he got shot because he identified two people prior two different people or different people prior to that. And so if you can explain to the people about that, and then the main thing here, you know that guy feel Carson is about to come out with that FBI Russell Pool uh you know, you know that's that's gut feel carsing from the FBI about to come out with a four hour interview they've

been waiting on and talking about. If you can explain to the people how you know his credibility is, how easy Russell food good? FBI? You know what's what's you can explain what I mean by that meeting that they don't have no credibility, just getting go down on one track mind and don't have a different number opinion or whatever. And then if you can explain the situation on how you feel about keeps and confession, you can just talk

about that. That why people won't buy that, know, you know, because people don't understand why you know, he hasn't been prosecuted as either came out. They don't really understand a confessional loans. You know, it's hard. It's hard for d A to pick up it just predictions. Okay, those those talk about those things. But but yeah, but you know, whatever questions you'll had or want to talk about, James

mustn't go over there. For some reason, James is cool about well, Reggie, we're listening to we're listening to you rid okay, but I can't slept you said you right now? Wait an wait, it's more important than anything. I don't know. If Jake Turpey want to take domes about the count, um, I appreciate that. And then the other thing was, um, Mountry, I don't know James mine that bunty. They need to have a reason when they had a picky for a birthday. Yeah,

his birthday was February fair. Yeah, I know sometime ever. Okay, cool, okay, Reggie, We're gonna hit off all four of those points. But I wanted to ask you about We didn't get to talk about this since the last time you called in, but you said you had been walking the track and I think you said you had lost fourteen pounds back then. Are you still on your workout? Two has been thacated in twenty two four. I'm thinking a little bit about that, but probably work out a little bit on and change

my regiment. But I'm looked about pounds and go back and forth and it on one day in the week it is and uter about two miles and the hand with ja. Let me think about here, man, they'd be working out. They like animals. They be doing for beast James trying to tell me to learn the game of chess and kino pinuccio whenever they call it. That's all anything is doing around here. So we got to do around here. Wait, you never learned how to play chess? I okay, man, sit down and play chess. You're turning

to go a lot faster. Yeah, they that's all they do, James, And he was right about that when you told me on that coming here you learn how to play chess. If you don't do that. Now they played a lot of chess. So do you have a new release date, Reggie, I haven't got the official one, so don't think they don't want a halfway house did come, but I'm soldiable

anywhere after September, but shootings are so so crowded. Getting out the probably sometime in October, but I'm hoping for September right now, so the black September the first, but more likely in October. I'm twenty Optober and October I'll be out in a halfway out by that time. Okay, I'm the work your boy Lee Baker's in al Paso, Texas. Baker Lee Baker's and El Paso, Texas. I don't need text. He had a prison camp one, yes, I believe it's

a camp. I think he's in the camp just like yours. Okay. Yeah. The thing about that man about they got a new first step active out and people that's over sixty now they get out, they only do two thursdays the time now that they get sent he won't be an. They let people out like crazy. I'm doing two thursdays, two Thursday time will over the age of sixty already went on. It won't be as much as as so that means

Lee Baker should be out. I think he was sentenced to three so it's two thirds of the eight or two thirds of the three years. That's a good question. I uh, I don't think, le Bob. This is how how often is the number one cop go to prison out of a police department he's from, but he's in our Pasto, Texas? He just turned himself in and do his time, all right? What else is on your mind? Ranch um man? I guess just what I wanted to

get off. Oh my boy, James. I heard people even Land and Not about his interview was like Land up, They're going to Nick Cannon about that. So so Nick Cannon go up there just because I said some well, he's not going to get you, and they were just pretty much said, wasn't well. I mean, I'll say against the chronicle, Shug wasn't born a bread like we were. Sugar was not a streetcat like we were. Sugar was not carry a pistol cat like we were. No that's

that wasn't That wasn't the questions. I mean, at that time I lived and and all of us lived the game banging life. She would never lived the game banging life. And if anybody can tell me he did, then I'm wrong, and I would apologize. She would never carry the red bandanna. She would never got in that car and then to drive by. She would when cut for that. That's what I was saying. So if people want to take that wrong, man, I ain't say she would win fight after the fact

or whatever. But everybody know that Ronald and Donald was was lost. Yep. In fact, his time was up. That's cool, you know. I just hate that when people take something I say and then they just get it all misgans through Sheild was never a carry your pistol type of cat. Shugar Gant never had a gun in his waist, in a red rag in his back pocket, or from who's out there claiming that he was. Well, these people saying

sugar is a game, whoever they are. I mean, if you didn't live the neighborhood or or or live how we live, then you can't you don't know. Yeah, all right.

So the last thing was have you had a chance to meet Amir Muhammad Harry Billips and talked to him and what was that like you I've had a number of conversations with him, Um, the latest I think was just a few days ago actually, and uh, you know, he's living out in Georgia and um, just living his life and taking care of his family and trying to avoid all this, and I think he thought it was all behind him until this most recent book came out

by Randal Sullivan and just resurrecting all of these old claims. And so I did the same thing with him that I've did with Red J. Said, you need to get out there and defend yourself, man, publicly defend yoursel of because when people see you and hear you, they're going to have a completely different impression than what they have by what they've been told in these books. You sit down. He's very intelligent guy, very articulate, very kind and respectful.

He's educated. You know, there's nothing about him at all that resonates like wow, that sounds like you know somebody who would have done this. It's not that impression that you get. And then, of course we know factually, just because of all the evidence that was proposed to stand up against him was all you know, disproven, But I think that for him, his decision is just to stay, stay in the cut and not not come out and do anything about it. So, James, what do you think

about that? Because Reggie Wright decided because Reggie Wright was quiet for many many years, no one had heard from him, and he decided to come out defend himself. But for whatever reason, Harry Billips hasn't publicly said a word. Am I right at that? He's never publicly said a word. No. The only thing he's ever done in his own defense is he went to a deposition. He was summoned to

a deposition as a result of the Wallace lawsuit. He went to the deposition, and almost immediately after that deposition, he was dropped from the lawsuit. What do you think about that, James? Uh, two different approaches. Reggie decided to defend himself, Harry Billups Amber Homma decides it really all depends on the person. He he just don't want to deal with it. Um. Reggie was like that at first two. But then when when you told Reggie need to get

out to and defend itself, Reggie took it. Reggie is smashing everybody that got something to say to him. So Reggie found a way to deal with it. And that's his way, you know, getting that improvement to to everybody that this person is woo you. You ain't good enough to talk about me like that. So I advised people not to talk about Reggie. But this guy, why why go out there and start talking? And then some you take the smallest thing and make it out of something

real big. And then now he's really in the loop. Oh you heard he said this. He's doing the right thing. Live your life, don't worry about what nobody else got to say about you, and just do you stay away from all this Just unfortunate that you have people out here trying to eat off something that would that happened twenty three years ago, and and they don't realize that it's still effective. People that are still alive today. You know, it's hurting him so and they don't take into consideration

that it's not just him. He's got a wife, he's got kids, he's got neighbors, he's got co workers. And people talk and they'll form opinions off of what they've been told. And that's where I again, that's where I take issue with these guys that factually, um, he's completely innocent, he's so exonerated that uh, the fact that these people are still pursuing and advocating for that bullshit story, it's

so responsible and disrespectful. So I haven't had a chance to look at Randall's new book, but um, I'm sure you've read everything. Is he repeating some of the same stuff in the Labyrinth book in the new book as well? Yeah, it's kind of like the sequel. It's just the same narrative, same storyline that the conspiracy has grown massively. Now it's just not a dirty cop and and uh in his high school or his college buddy. Um, now it's a

dirty cop is college buddy? The United States Attorney's Office, the FBI, the l A p D, the district attorneys, all these Now it's there's two hundred people involved in this conspiracy who are all agreen to risk their reputations, their careers, in their lives to cover up for David Mack. And this is not a novel, Okay, it sounds like

a novel the way describe it. It's it's it's ludicrous, you know, the the idea that all of these people who most of who don't even know each other, from all of these different walks of life, all these different agencies are all going to collectively agree that we need to we need to suppress all this information in order to protect David MCINTOMR Muhammed no last Um. At that slow Burn event, it seemed like you guys must have a history. It wasn't just that one night you guys

went at it. Can you explain the history that you and Mr Sullivan have to where it seems like as soon as you guys are on the same stage, you're going at it. Where what's the history light between you guys? There's no personal history. I've never met him before, I've never talked to him before. In fact, that was one of my points last night on the stage. I was like,

you know, you're publishing all of this. You have information, and you should if you're a responsible journalist and you really want to find out the truth, you need to get as many different perspectives on things as you can. If somebody's accused of something, you need to go talk to that person and get their side of the story right. And you know, he makes these wild accusations against me, He never made any attempt whatsoever to come and talk to me to say, hey, Greg, well this is what

I heard. I'm going to write a book. You have an opportunity here to either correct this or provide at least your perspective on it. That's what you do when you're looking for the truth. That's what you do when you want to publish something with a responsible, objective perspective.

It's not what they do. What they want to do is continue with this bullshit narrative that's completely disproven and in the hopes that they can continue to um mislead people into believing this wild ass theory about this huge cover up. What was your first reaction, James, after um, seeing Randall Sullivan and Greg k and go at it for about what was about maybe twenty minutes. I don't even know how long that last it was. It was,

but it was short, and I have a video of it. Um, I'm gonna see if I could have permission from slow Burn to post that on my channel, UM, because I thought it was compelling, and it was. It was crazy. I was just just go back because I'm looking at him, and then right here you see Greg got a hold of wayman, I got that for that, But he just got this book with like he was taking notes on what he wanted to last out about. And when he started off, he tried to what do you what did

he tell? You said? He was like crazy or something? He what, what's so disrespect And that's what so often happens in these type of either debates or you know, these these arguments, is that when they can't disprove your facts, then they just personally attack you. And that seems to be the approach that they take. Well, we can't disprove the facts, so now we have to smear his reputation, like that one part where he was talking about miss Wallace and the the the table was supposed to be

hitting or whatever. Now when she's seen that, she got mad. And a lot of people don't know that, but people think that the purpose of of talking to her and doing with her, are you coming in is to discredit that so they can drop the lawsuit. And once the lawsuit was dropped down, he got shenanigans again. But what when she didn't know that that about the hidden tape?

Explain that how that went last night? Yeah, so during the trial, there was a there was a allegation that the l a p D was suppressing some evidence to the wall the biggest that after Big It was killed and the book Labyrinth was published. Based on the information in the book, it compelled an attorney to contact Mrs Wallace and say, look, if if these claims are true, then the l a p D is culpable in the

murder of your son. We have to assume him. That led to a lawsuit in two thousand and two roughly, and so that lawsuit, as it began to go through the motions of court, UM got to a point where

their attorneys argued that we were suppressing evidence. So they came to the police department on the judge's orders, and they found some material that was in the UM the desk of the investigator that was assigned to the case at the time, a guy named Stephen Katz, And they found a tape from a jailhouse informant named Kenneth Boulogney. So they made this big deal about it. Look it, man,

here's proof they're suppressing evidence. Like this detective interviewed a guy and this guy says that Rafael Perez was involved in this murder. And you're familiar with Rafael Perez, the rampart scandal guy, and so that went you know, to court, and the judge was like, hell, yeah, this is clearly um inappropriate suppression of evidence. So she issued a sanction against the city for like a million dollars and declared

a mistrial. Well, shortly thereafter, the attorneys for the city came in and said, well, hold a minute, here's the evidence that this stuff had been turned over. We weren't hiding anything, and all of this material is readily available, was distributed through different channels in the l a p D. And the judge then said, well, you know, she realized that she been played and uh that the damage was done. The mistrial was declared, and now it was a matter

of putting everything back in motion. So that's what took place. Um. But to my point, like last night, you've got him saying, well, you know this this really rare ammo out there that Biggie was killed with. It's never been seen before, it's so unique, which is all bullshit. There was stores all over the South County that that had that ammunition available to anybody that walked in and wanted to buy it.

And then I pulled out the documents showing it. Look just within a few months of Biggie's murder that ammunition was showing up on other crime scenes. So really, how rare is that it's not? Well, they was making it seem like that that dad Emmore was only used that one time and they haven't seen it in California. That was their claim that it's never been used in the history of the United States and any type of crime.

That was the gun that was used to kill Pac ever recovered because on the A and E documentary The One Who Killed Tupac, hosted by Benjamin Crump, civil rights attorney, they claim to have found the gun in the backyard of a South Side Confident crips house. Yeah, so there was never conclusively proven to be the gun. There was good reason to believe it could have been because there

was issues with Corey Edwards. He was the individual who was out in Las Vegas with the rest of the South Side crips when Pac was shot, and Corey Edwards was really he wasn't down with all that, he wasn't trying to be part of that, and so they thought he was kind of ranking out. And so when the murder went down and Corey had kind of distanced himself from it. They saw they saw that he was just maybe too soft or whatever, and uh, the gun may have been tossed in his backyard just to kind of

funk with him. That was the working theory. I don't know if that's true or not. But a forty caliber clock was found in the backyard of his girlfriend's parents house, actually in Compton, and we recovered the gun, and actually Compton had recovered the gun. We took it to Las Vegas to test it and compared against the ballistics in Tupax case. But the analysts out in Las Vegas said that it wasn't a match. So we had to we

had to accept that. I had to accept it, even though there's been rumors that the Las Vegas just an attorney's office doesn't even want to touch this case. Yeah, you know, I again, I have to just stick with what we're being told. I can't make that. I can't draw that conclusion that they're intentionally um because they have nothing to gain to even charge anyone in this because everyone has to be dragged back to Vegas the trial would take place there, and this is just a city

that doesn't want that type of attention. Yeah, and at this point in time, there's really nobody to drag back, you know, other than kyp D and his own confessions of his involvement. The other guys in the car are all dead. Um a guy who gave the gun to kip D, he's dead. Von Zip. Yeah. So all of these guys that would potentially be their co conspirators or co defendants, they're all gone, and there's no real witnesses who can come and say, yeah, I was there. Kep D was the one who was in the car and

had the gun and was participating in the murder. So you've basically got kif D testifying against kif D. Hard case to to take to court. Did you ever find the car, the white Cadillac I believe it was a rental car. Did you ever track it down through vin number or anything to see if there's any forensics on that car? No, Unfortunately, I think that's an area that

maybe the ball got dropped on Las Vegas. Part by the time we came onto the scene, you know, we're ten years after the fact, So to go back and try to get records on a rental car from ten years those don't exist. They're purged out of the system. So it's impossible then to know because that car might be sitting in someone's backyard or might be in the junkyard, you know, yeah now these days, Yeah, that's that was a long time ago. Did nobody have no license plate number?

Nothing to find that car? The first person that's seen that car was me at the six SI. You saw the white catillet. They was there. Yeah, they was there and being chased and all of that. And would nobody thinking about getting no license plate number? But since it was a rental car, it would be a scene. It would be a car that would be easily name but you gotta know whose name it is. That was? That

was That's pretty much hard though, Alex. There was some information that probably could have been followed up on better. Was that the driver of that car got named Terence Brown. They called him bubble up Um t Brown. His mom.

It could have it was either his mother or his mother in law was the one who actually had rented the car over at the enterprise at l A X. And so if we hadn't known that, or if law enforcement had known that back at the time, potentially they could have run down that lead and found out that there was a connection between T. Brown in the car

that would have been monumental. But even still for y'all records today, can y'all go back and look and see if that was a white CATLLC whatever color was to make the monitor whole note, Yeah, no, because all those records were purged. You know, those rental car companies after a period of time, they just purged their records. They

don't keep them indefinitely for you know, two decades. Yeah, but Enterprise, for example, takes all their cars that are like a two years old and they put them on an Enterprise lot and then they sell them to the public. Right that those records still exist because then you have

to track who would you sell it to. You had to put insurance on the car, there has to be a payment plan, so that means it was financed, so there's got to be records on I guess the point I'm trying to make is that first you'd have to go to the rental or to Enterprise and say here's

a name that's purged. So if you were to go to them and say, hey, twenty years ago, they'd be we don't have those records of Mrs Brown and that's the only way where you're gonna be able to track the car, because through her name is about this you have well you've learned about this in two thousand six, two thousand seven, two thou nine, So thirteen years later, you know that they rented a car from Enterprise, a white Cadillac Cadillac. How many of them could there have been?

And they have records of all the vent numbers. They probably don't have a record of who rented it, but the identity of the car should still be recorded somewhere, right with the VN number and the license plate. Yeah, theoretically, you're right that even if they got the card, I mean, thirteen years later, you ain't gonna get none offer of it. Well apparently they got shot back at. I'm just I'm just looking at it as a piece of evidence that

was never looked at. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, okay, So let's say that you were able to do that. From a practical standpoint. Let's say you identify the car and it still exists and you could go recover it. That connects you to Terence Brown, right, who's dead. Connects you to keyfe D by way of you know, his own confession of saying he's in that car. So what does that actually do as far as a potential prosecution? What's the value of that knowledge or that evidence today?

It's too late. Yeah, well in two thousand and six, what youre to Terence Brown get killed? He died in Uh it was just a few years ago. Really, Yeah, he was still alive. He was still alive. That's correct. Yes, that's correct, And I'll just concede to the fact that that effort wasn't made. Yeah, let's get to some of Reggie's points that he wanted you would cover. I guess

this first one. M Gene Deal been doing a lot of talking on this case lately, and I'm you don't want to want to even coming on that care because I don't know him, he uh said, some said, I don't. I ain't ever seen this, dude, I don't care nothing about this. You live in New York. When the fun? What is you talking about? Uh? Fun? Reggie and James. She said that he said this a couple of months ago. But I'm not gonna even reply to that because you

don't know me to say that. If that's how you feel, I mean, Jene Deal can come against Chronicles to sit out and we could talk. He could bring his people, but after the fact, we can move this table. And Jene Deal had in his business. That's the only way you can talk to me and talk. Ship. I don't want to hear that ship. Ain't gonna be no studio gangster. I ain't gonna be talking from Gangster Chronicles to Yo Little ragged As podcast or whatever you're doing on your

couch and and and just go back and forth. I'm not gonna do none of that ship. But yeah, he's been talking. So I went and looked up Jane Deal and Mace and the video. Why that Mace got on this video and was telling him y'all had guns too. Why y'all didn't shoot at the cat that shot Biggie? They actually sit there and watch Biggie get shot. Nobody don't know that, but mag put it out there. Y'all had guns, y'all the security. Why y'all didn't shoot this dude? Well,

I don't know. But for anyone who's forty five and under, they don't know who Mace is. But Mace was one of the top rappers on bad Boy Records in early nineties. I think he was actually on before Biggie was on, but um, I guess um Gene Deal was present when Biggie got killed. Gene Deal was the bodyguard for bad Boy for Puff. So even though I know you don't want to hear nothing he got to say, Um, do you think he has any value greg of being present

and what his story is? Of course, you know, whatever his observations were that night need to be um taken into consideration. You know, he did have this encounter or you know, kind of a soft encounter with a guy that he perceived um as a nation of Islam. In his original statement with his he said, yeah, he was dressed like a guy from a nation of Islam, but I don't think he was because he wasn't acting like one. I don't know what that means. I don't know what

a Nation of Islam guy acts like. That's any different than the next guy who might be standing there with a bow tie. So I'm not sure exactly what that means, but that was his statement. I don't think he was a real n o I because of the way that

he was acting. But he says, a guy in a bow tie came walking up, looked suspicious and you have to keep in mind that the previous night there was a confrontation with some guys from the Nation of Islam and bad Boy at the Shrine auditorium, So that's already in his mind as a bodyguard, as a security guy looking for threats, they've already had an encounter he sees a guy makes him uncomfortable, and that that individual kind of looks over at him and then turns around and

walks up the eat in the direction of where they shooting would ultimately take place. So, yeah, that's great information, that's important information to know. But what ends up happening is over time that story continues to just evolve and change, and that's where it becomes problematic. You know, we have his original interview and we retained everything he said. It's all recorded, and the things that he's saying now and has been saying are not consistent with what he originally said.

And so you've got to ask yourself, well, then, what's the motivation? Why are things changing? Is it just to stay relevant? Is it to be sensational? Is it to get clicks? You know, because your story shouldn't be changing that much, wouldn't Little sees Little Caesar, who was part of the Biggie camp, didn't he say something similar about

a guy from the Nation of Islam? And I think this kind of promotes the Harry Billups theory Mohammed theory because to this day, Jeane Deal believes a meyor Muhammed was the shoot her. Am I right about that. Uh, well, I'm not exactly sure if he truly believes at he's kind of committed to it now because of the fact that he identified him and said it's the shooter. So he's never going to change that, regardless of the evidence

that you know works against that. That thought, um, But there may be some legitimacy to the idea that a Nation of Islam guy real or not real, um, was somehow involved in what took place. I don't think that Pucci would have been in a position if he's sitting in his car to know exactly where Biggie was sitting. So maybe Pucci had to look out, maybe somebody was spotting,

and so I can't discount that. All I can tell you with absolute confidence is that that guy that he saw from the Nation of Islam was not a mere Mohammed. But last night you did say that both shootings. The pock and Biggie have conspirators, the theory that Pooch was alone in that car when you shot Biggie, but you believe they are conspirators in the Pucci shooting, It makes the most sense to think there's at least one other um co conspirator, that somebody else may have been out

on foot and said, okay, listen, we're watching. Because you gotta keep in mind that it took a while for them to get in their cars and to get out onto the street and to pull away. Somebody would have had to be in a position to say, hey, it's the second suburban bigs in the right front seat, so you know, because Pucci is not going to be in a position to go into the parking lot, see where they're at, then run get his car, get back out on the street, and be in a position to do

what he did. So it would make the most sense that there is probably some communication between the car and somebody out there watching much and directly where big is at. Although there's a little bit of video tape from somebody that was standing across the street from the Peterson Museum, I don't know, it's like fifteen seconds twenty seconds. Was that video useful at all? I mean, you could hear the number of shots, but other than that, was it useful?

What it was because it it showed, for one, the kind of mayhem that was going on around there. He saw the amount of people going on and all of the activity. You see Puffy pull out of the parking lot and they're just kind of posted up for a minute out in the middle of the street waiting for

Biggis suburban to pull up behind him. So you capture all of this, and so you can see clearly where Puffy's at in the in the car, you can see where his driver is at, and then you see where the shooting takes place, which is right there at the corner, because they keep the video rolling as everybody's jumping out of their cars running over to Big and trying to attend to him. So, yeah, there's value in it, for sure.

Every piece of information is potentially valuable. Okay, Gene Deal saying that he saw I mean Mohammed shooting Puffy, I mean Biggie. No, Jean's not saying that. Jean's saying that the guy that he saw that walked up and caused him to um you know, caused him to take note is a mere Mohammed? So why they put him out there like he's a killer? Mere Mohammed? Why do they

put him out there like a killer? If nobody said he was the driver demanded pulled up and pop nine times because I know ain't nobody in that car looked ahead up and say, oh that was him? I oh, yeah, I know him from a tea? Why the shots was going? So how has they they paint him to be the killer? So circumstantially what ends up happening is Little Sis, who's in the best position to actually see the shooter. He's right behind Biggie in the rear passenger seats, so that

in Paula would have pulled right up alongside. So the shooting takes place, and Little s says, ship, I ducked like anybody would. But there was that moment when I looked over and I glimpsed at the shooter and he was wearing Nation of Islam type of attire. To reenactment of that, because you're a cold cat that should have been and look at somebody that's dumping on you. I've been in that situation many times, and I'm not finished,

keep my head up to see who's shooting it me. Yeah, so it might have been if if you know, if we just take this, if if we do reenact this in our minds and imagine that you're sitting in the backseat of that suburban and you happen to look over in the shooting hasn't taken place yet, but you just happened to notice the car pulling up alongside of you, and you see a guy in a suit, and then the gun comes out and then you dock. So there's there's a plausible um reality that maybe maybe c saw

what he said he saw. Yeah, I mean that would be two seconds, maybe just two seconds. Is that enough to get a glimpse of somebody and send the prison for the rest of their life? No, but how often does a few seconds of eyewitness testimony help land a conviction? And it does people get convicted? Yeah? Well that in that in consideration with other information, you know, because you've got hopefully yeah, hopefully. Um. So you have him go in little cease in g money, Gregory Young who was

the driver of Big East car. Um. They go and sit down with a forensic um artist and they draft up a couple of composites. Well, you look at these composites, and you know, you can see what you want to see. You know that they could be There's a lot of people could look like these guys, because the two composites don't necessarily even look alike. So that's problematic in itself. But one of them does look like Harry Billips exactly. And whoever did that composite didn't know anything about Harry

Billips Mohammed. So is it just a coincidence that Little sees Gene Deal, whoever gave the information to the artist that's the shape of his head, There's there's a resemblance. Well, so this becomes even more difficult because the way that this individual is described by Eugene Deal does not match the individual that Little Ce saw. So their descriptions aren't consistent.

So now you're like, okay, well, Eugene Deal believes that this guy that walked up was potentially the shooter and identify as a mere Mohammed, right, Well, in their descriptions they're not consistent. So you have to take all these things into consideration and try to work through, you know, how how do people's impressions affected, How is the lighting how quick this took place. And the best thing to actually do um as an investigator is to sit and

listen to these guys talk, not just take um. They're written statements like hey, he said he looked twenty four to five of a grayish too maybe light suit. When you listen to their actual interview tapes and you hear their voices, you get a very clear impression that they didn't see anything exactly. Number one, Gene Deal is given a description of the man that he's so standing by, not at the shooter. What differences do that make? And then once again his his uh sketch is totally different

from the picture that the other guy did. You know? His description? So what is his purpose? You feel me? Yeah, so, Eugene Deal, I'm sorry to catch off, but since we were here talking about Eugene Deal, after you know, the investigators had interviewed him several times, they took a six pack a photo lineup to him and displayed that and he picked out a guy in one of the positions that investigators knew had absolutely just some random guy had

nothing to do at all with this murder. But Eugene Deal says, yeah, that's that's what the guy looked like and so now you've got at least what Eugene Deal's impression of that individual was. That guy looks nothing like Kamir Mohammed. So then down the road years later, Eugene Deal sees a picture of him, your Mohammed and says, that's the guy. Well, if that's the guy, why does he look so much different than the original guy that

you said looked like him? And then you find out that Eugene Deal saw a picture of Mir Mohammed in XL magazine prior to seeing him in this photographic lineup, so he's seen the same picture twice, and then saying, well, XL magazine is identifying this guy potentially as the killer. Well, here he is in the sixth back. Yep, that's the guy. So what percent are you confident that the shooter was wardel fus Puci Like, if you were going to put

a number on it, I'm really confident. I'm not as confident um as I am with Orlando Anderson in Tupac, you know, I mean, there's just absolutely no doubt whatsoever

confident on that. But you can't say that Ford fos So, wardel fust I'm probably closer to only because nobody can positively identify him as the shooter as we do with Orlando, right, Um, but because of the you know, the information that was provided by the intermediary by Sug's female accomplice, her description of everything, and her um statement that it was Wardell Fauss, that it was Pucci that she paid to do the hit, and then Pucci's own individual background as a hitter for

Sugar and being suspected of doing a whole bunch of other murders. Well, he's definitely capable of doing it if it's the profile of somebody that would carry out something like that. So those things collectively make the best case for who the shooter is because aside from him, we don't have anybody else. Yeah, it's certainly not a Mohammed. That's conclusively been disproven that that is a dent. It's not even chance he's the one. There's not even a

point five percent chance that he's the one. There's a second point here that Reggie wanted us to address. James, I don't I'm not familiar with this. Phil Carson, former FBI agent UH has a theory on this that I guess alignes with Randall Sullivan's Yeah, you know, Um, again, I don't know this individual, never met him, so I

can only criticize him professionally. And I think that he, like Russell Poole, has formed an opinion based on very loose, circumstantial information and then refuses to accept the information that refutes that, and so he just sees one big, massive conspiracy that that's that on its face is completely unbelievable. Now you can you can understand some people might find it difficult that you're criticizing professionally a trained FBI agent,

someone that should see everything you're saying. But you're saying, even though this guy's an FBI agent, trained by the most powerful government on Earth, he still got it wrong. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I'll tell you why. First, when he came on, you know, he he wasn't on the job or any when you know, he was a young agent when he was assigned this case, and he came out of white collar crimes. Now all of a sudden,

he's dealing with this whole other element. And uh, and of course, um, he's given he's given this informant and he puts all of his puts all of his credibility on this informant. Well, this informant is absolutely disproven, and you know we can unwrap that and I can demonstrate to you how we can conclusively, um say that Michael Robinson was the name of this informant was lying in regard to this case. Is it is it normal for the police to find the case I try to solve

a case after twenty three years? Why they don't just let it go? Well, for Phil Carson, he came onto this case back in um, you know, around the time that the lawsuit was being waged, because he read into these claims against police corruption and read into Russell Pool's allegations that David Mack was So he opened up his own FBI investigation into the l a p D to probe into corruption and he began to uncover things that

in his mind was substantiating these claims. But he was relying on people who were lying and instead of just accept and realized at some point in time that you know what I've been, Um, I've lost my objectivity. And that's exactly what happened to Russell Pool. And so now all we have is an FBI version of Russell Pool out there who refuses to accept the known facts instead of the speculation that is driving his narrative. Well, the last thing out the Reggie Wright wanted you to touch on.

And I guess we we've talked about this on the show before, Keep you DS confession. Um we get we get U. Yeah, And I'm sure you've talked about it many, many many times. And by the way, let me let everybody know that I have keep you D ready to do. Keep you D sit down me and Keep you D gonna shit down at the round table where we're gonna discuss the Is that right I'm saying? Is that right? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah,

he'd be here tonight. Okay, Well, one question I do have about keep D confession is why did it get leaked? Did you leak it? And did I mean that information being out there put to keep D in a very dangerous situation, something that he didn't even know he was being recorded at all the entire time. So how did

it become public? This confession? So when we sat down with keip e D, myself, the FBI, kep DS lawyer, we sat down under what's known as a proper agreement and he um divulged all of the details about what took place in Las Vegas the night Tupac was shot. At that point in time, it's we're just going through the investigative Um, we're just going through the kind of

investigative process. Until I retired and I came to the realization that these these crimes, the public is never going to know what we did in this investigation, in the information that we attained, and so I took it upon myself, said you listen. And I went and met with KPD before I did it. By the way, he knew that I was releasing the information. I went to his house. Um, we sat in my truck and I said, here's the deal. Um, you're never going to probably get prosecuted on this, but

I'm going to expose what you did. And uh, I said, I'm just letting you know ahead of time. I'm writing a book and I'm going to tell the story. And listen, you got a huge break on the on the dope case that we built against you, which was to life. You're walking away on a murder. So if if the punishment for you is that the public knows the truth about what you did, well then that's just the way it's gonna be. But he should have made him even it shouldn't have hurt him. And that's not the part

that's hurting kepd situation. It's just the fact that people know that he said that when the police and discussed his nephew. That's that's what's hurting him. Yeah. Well, I think it's two things that's gonna hurt Kepd for the rest of his life. One that he got exposed as an informant in some in some way. Not everyone. Come on, man, when you're telling the police this person killed, that person said, you gotta look at it like this, my nephew is dead.

And he took the advantage of that because he was fighting life. Right, he got caught with some drugs. So if I can speak on this, my nephew and him all these catches gone, so if I could speak on that, he used that ship as a street ticket to get out of this situation, completely understand. But he didn't. What fucked him up is he didn't think that Greg was gonna put it out there that you told on your nephew.

And that's that's my point. You got a man that that that made it be The twenty part of life two times. I thought it was a smart move on his part because he knew that no one's gonna go to jail, no one's going to prison, no one's getting indicted, and I get to go home. But still the pub I'm talking about the way the public will perceive him. One you told and two now we know for sure you killed my favorite rapper in the world. He hate

me for that. But when I when when you and I speak one little negative thing about Pock, they go in on us. They do. Now imagine how they're feeling about KVD. You know. So you kind of put him out there on those two things, which I did, which could actually get him killed if he's not careful. Yeah, and um, I'm not sorry I did it. You know. Um, he's who he is. I told him what I was gonna do. His response was, little funk it. Then I'm

a gang straw handle that ship. That's exactly what he told me, and said, Okay, Well, that's your that's your decision, that's your life, that's you go do you. I'm telling the world what the funk happened because this story is more important than you. In fact, I think this story is more important than your life. So what was your your process of getting that out to the public. Who did you turn to and how did it eventually? How

did we all learn about this confession? So I ended up getting a guy that was a professional writer and we sat down and I said, you know, would you like to collaborate on this? And he said yeah. And you know, I got a publishing contract with Random Random House, and we wrote the rough draft and then Random House got it and they read what was in the book and there we ain't publishing this man. We ain't doing some pointing, some fingers that Puffy combs his office right

across the street from ours. We're not having that. He's very lititious and he's just gonna not, you know, appreciate what you're saying about him in this book. It's like, all right, well, I've got this, I've got this material, and I know that I can defend it, and I think that when Puffy reads it, he's going to know it's true anyways, and that uh, I wasn't in fear of being sued, and so I published it and it

ran its course. Well, um, I could sit here and talk to you all day, all night, all morning long, but we're gonna have to wrap this up in a minute. James, you got any last final thoughts? No, I just think it all I should be over. Uh, let these guys rest. We know, ain't nobody going to jail for what everybody everybody lost, everybody lost. Something is somebody you know in this game, this death row thing. Nobody came out on top period shill night. You know, five million dollars years

in prison, everybody lost. So I think it should be buried up under rugs somewhere, and people just need to accept what's really out there, the truth. The killers are dead, so you ain't gonna get a conviction. Let it go. But people still see money and and other things in this But it's over. Well, Greg, can you tell everybody where they can get your book and let us know what's going on with you? Yeah, so Murder Rapp being fighting you know, Amazon dot com anywhere where books are sold,

you can you can download it. There's a digital version and then uh um, of course that led to a documentary that that's uh likely titled also Murder Wrap. And then there's a series it's kind of loosely based on the book called Unsolved. It was excuse me on Netflix last year. I've been watched that a few months ago. It was pretty good, pretty good. Yeah, I mean you go one episode into the next episode and oh yeah it was well done. Good thanks. Yeah, I thought so too.

That was USA, right, originally as USA, and then Netflix picked it up. Yeah. So where can people find you? Are you on social media? On the internet website? Man, I'm so easy to find, you know. I'm I've got a Facebook page, and you know, I'm always people ask me questions on Twitter. I just throw my email out there, so I'm always I'm always around an available to answer questions because you know, I I put myself out there, and so now I have to deal with the responsibility

of that. And if people have questions, and you know, nothing's off the table um because I I feel that, um. You know, information is you know, his power, Sure it is. And when people want to have closure, they want to find out what took place with these two gentlemen, I'm gonna do everything I can to get those facts straight. Well, I appreciate you spending a little time with us. I see James has uh this bottle of wax. Tell us about that. Yeah, I just wanted to let everybody know

that I'm supporting my cousin. You know, he's a black entrepreneur and himself. He he's into a little bit of everything, and and you know, uh, he was detailing my sister car and he got this merchandise which was in He made it all the way to the to wal Mart, had his ship on the shelf, and you know, he just didn't have the exposure that he needed. So I felt that it was only right that I help him out.

You know, I'm helping family. I got a lot of things going on that's in the community, trying to help you know, our people, you know, the best way I can and to use my platform to help him. Uh, I got him here. I want him to come and say where his product is. We're coming with a little infomercials or whatever it is to explain how is his product work? And uh, you know, just trying to launch something and get it going. Let him come on the micro real quick for a second and explain it briefly

before we wrap out the show. No, Greg, okay, real quick, tell us about this wax. It's uh spray wax that you spill on your car keeps the car shigning for weeks. Um It's really easy to use. Even after the rain, it still has the car shining. I want to thank the Gangster Chronicles and James for um let me uh just get the the all the all of the Uh you're a little nervous, y'all, so all of the people that you guys have watching the show, thanks for having me come on. And uh, it's just a good product.

I've watched a lot of Stars Cars and uh recently kind of retired from detailing cars, and I can with this product right here, Magnificent Wax. How do people find the Magnificent Wax? If they want to get a bottle of it, you can go to Magnificent Wax dot com and uh, yeah, we we shipped the product out and h can give it to you. We're gonna have all of that. We're hooking it up. We're gonna everybody gonna

see what to do. Uh at a letter date uh Friday, he will be uh with this little demonstration and then to come on and on a little little bit of Gange Chronicles. People can see it and we're gonna try to target some some some good names to put it out there and we're gonna see what to do. Alright, that's magnificent wax dot com. Go get you a bottle and uh thanks for coming on. And before we wrap up the show, I need Greg to come back and sit real quick. I just have this one final question.

We didn't get to talk about it. I had to hear in my notes, but I'm sure in your investigation, um, the Frankliga and Kevin Gaines shooting came up. Was there anything about these two cops that had a road rage incident important in the investigation of the big killing? Now, the only real connection between that incident and uh In in the murder investigation was just the lead that Kevin

Gaines was involved in a relationship with Sugar Knight. I'm sorry, And it was Sugar Knight's wife, with Sharitha, and the car that he was driving the day that that encounter took place was registered to her. And so for Russell Pool, you know, what came to mind is like, Okay, why is this l APD officer involved in a relationship with this with this rap rappers? You know, this CEO's wife from this record label. So that was kind of for him, like what's going on? Why are our officers mixing with

this with these people. And then as that question began to get asked, we found out that there were quite a few cops from different agencies that we're working for for death row records under right WY security. Well, that's problematic for law enforcement because you it's it's from their perspective,

a conflict of interest. You know, you've got an organization that is perceived as criminal to a certain degree, a bunch of gang members hanging out and drugs being dealt around the studios, and a bunch of you know, people with guns, and then cops they're providing security. So that was from the law enforcement perspective, there's just that's unacceptable. You're not going to mix those worlds once again. The

gangs is too. Kevin Gaines was never found he had been a corrupt cop, right, No, there was a couple of road rage road rage incidents at No, there's no indication that he is a crep cop. No, but he had a temper and there was some reports about him having prior road rage. Accidents are incidents, and so when it came down to you, really just only two people

were there, one lived, one didn't. So now you're only left with the story of the guy who survived, and he says that guy pulled up and was creating problems with me and I was defending myself. Well, it's kind of substantiated by the fact that, well, there was a pattern for Kevin Gaines to have done, you know, doing that type of thing. He just never encountered another armed cop before. Well, we're about to wrap up on that note. Frank Lager claims Kevin Gaines pulled his gun out for first,

and then he shot in defense. But if Kevin Gaines pulled his gun out first, wouldn't at least one bullet been fired something some some sort of shooting from his sidecom It's just pure speculation, you know. If if Gaines pulls his gun out really with no intent to shoot, he's just like, I'm scared this motherfucker. And then Leig has already got his gun out because he's a cop who's expecting problems, so boom, he just shoots back real quick.

That's probably the likely scenario. Alrighty, well, thanks for listening to another episode of The Gangster Chronicles. Everybody, thanks Greg Katie for coming down. Thanks for having me man. I really appreciate it. It was good to hear from Reggie two.

I was I was wondering how he was doing. And um, if you're looking for James McDonald, you can find him on Facebook with the Red Harley and then um on Instagram at B I G G J thirty six thirty six and he still has no shirts, but at a different number, nine on nine three for there you go, and you can find me at alex Alonso one oh one on all social media platforms. I'm also on street Gangs dot Com and Great Kitting. Do you want to put out any locations where they can find you or

they just like my home address? No, no online anywhere. If someone wanted to send you a message right now, it's the easiest way to send you a message. Yeah, actually, it's just my Gmail or my email GM G A, I can't even remember my own email. Just find me on Facebook. Okay, So that's it. You can find him on Facebook. I'm sure if you just type grad Kating pretty unique names. Not I'm sure there's a few other great Kattings out there on Facebook. But you can find

him on on Facebook as well. And don't forget to download the Himalaya app if you want to listen to this show and subscribe to it. It's the Red Eye kind of with the Hi in it, and we are out and don't forget. Magnificent wax dot com piece by