TGI 664 - Hades II Deep Dive With Hat

Welcome to the Gamers Inn. Come on in, pull up a chair next to the fire. It looks like you've had a long journey. I'm your host, Jocelyn, and joining me as always is my co-host, Ryan. Hello, Ryan. Moda B, you're back. What's up? So Moda B, sorry. Still sick, but you know, getting there. So, so close to being good. And we had Canadian Thanksgiving yesterday, which was awesome. And I am super thankful for the return of my podcasting experience.

with one of my favorite co-hosts of all time. Hat has returned. We get to talk to each other and I'm so excited. Thank you for filling in last week and also being here this week. I can't wait. Hi, Joss. Hi, Ryan. Hi, GamersN. So hyped to be back here this week. We're also talking about... Obviously an amazing, wonderful game. Also, for those of you questioning last week, I posit at the beginning of the show that I am not Jocelyn. And as of right now, we have proof, or at least...

There are two people in the same place at the same time. One of them claims to be Jocelyn. I'm not claiming to be. I think that's proof enough. Super glad to be back here. It's not like we had like a hundred episodes where people can very easily go and see that we are not the same people. 2025 is a post-truth society. I don't know. But anyway, Andre will be back. So I have to talk about it. And last week, we...

We dipped our toes into Hades 2, and Ryan, I just want to say I'm proud of us that we limited Hades 2 Talk last week to five minutes. Not going to happen this week. No. If you're not interested in Hades 2, first of all, yes, you probably are. Stay listening. Don't turn off the show. You don't even know yet. Don't tell people that you know. What are you doing? Hades 2 is, if Jocelyn's playing it and has put double the amount of time that both of us have put in.

Like it's a great game, right? Yeah. I'm up to 80 hours now. Yeah. I've only done 30. Okay. What are we doing? get good ryan come on hurry up get free time ryan i need to do that that also is fair that's fair uh but yeah so we are going to be talking all about hades 2 that's basically all we're talking about this week but um we're going to try to keep it to mechanics first and story later that being said we are going to talk all

So we are going to give a big spoiler warning when we get into the narrative things, but we're going to talk all about basically everything happening. That being said, I'm the only... that knows the ending of the game so uh if you don't want to be spoiled on the ending of the game don't worry we're not talking about that this week because these guys are so slow it's true

And not great at the game. I just literally defeated the downstairs boss twice in the last couple days. Okay, so speak for yourself on that one. I'm pretty great. No, I'm fine. I played early access. So like I had, I knew how some of the Boston, by the way, for those of you that are unaware, there are two paths in the game. We're going to use the technical terms. There's downies and there's uppies. Oh, sorry. So technical. I did not. Read the technical manual ahead of time.

uh yeah so uh small spoilers happening through this part of the conversation we're going to talk all about the mechanics of the game and we will give you a big spoiler warning for the narrative but we won't be talking about the ending at all hat has said that he will come back again for a little shorty little mini so to talk about the ending of hades 2 once we're once we're all ready to have that conversation because there is a big conversation to be had there i think and i am

just busting at the seams as had said before the, before the show to talk about this and we don't get to talk about it today. So we will come back. We will talk about it again, but it won't be tonight. So. uh let's jump in because we've got a lot of stuff to get through i think um into the actual mechanics of hades 2 so this is a roguelike which i know you're like how does joss have 80 hours in this game and honestly i think um

The number one reason why I enjoy this over a lot of other roguelikes that I've tried. Well, I guess there's probably two reasons. One, the IP is based on Greek mythology, and that is just something I'm already very familiar with. I read The Odyssey in high school many, many times. content that I already identify with and understand. But also, it has this really cool mechanic where you can pick the same weapon every single run and have the same moveset if you want.

your blessings and your like altercations to your moveset are going to change every time but like you can go in being like i really like the staff or i really like the knives or i really like the big scythe like you You aren't locked out of anything right from the get-go at the start of your run, which I love. Like, I am a Sister Blades gamer, and I can go in with them every single time. And I'm like...

Stab, stab, stab, stab, stab. And throwing knife. And stab, stab, stab, stab. And throwing knife. And it's so satisfying. And it never takes that away from me. I am never forced to do a run without them. which is also really helpful if I'm like just going to do an achievement. Like there's very something specific I want to do in uppies or downies. I have a specific boss I want to get to to get the thing. I don't have to worry about.

not completing it because I don't have my comfort weapon. Yeah, and... This is something that the game design team has talked about in the original Hades 1. They discovered, and there are a bunch of systems for this. The Dark Thirst system, which is one of the six weapons is glowing. And if you use that, you get extra...

uh, meta currency money to use back to camp. Um, and also there's, as you get a little later in the game, there's a, there's a, uh, optional difficulty configuration where you can choose how to make the game harder. As you do later and later runs, you get more rewards for it and the rewards.

kind of gravitate towards specific weapons and bosses, and you can earn more of them by playing with more variety. The game rewards you for playing with variety, but never requires it, and that's a pretty important difference. Sorry, Ryan, I cut you off there. No, it's fine. I know when Hades 2 first launched, we spoke to the fact that the ability to have a little bonus every once in a while...

if you are limiting yourself, not limiting yourself, but choosing to only play as weapons you prefer. And I... i prefer the double daggers as well it's where i've i've done my note my most damage uh and i and you know sometimes there's fun like you know what

I will go with the explodey skull thing this time around. Oh God, I hate that. Oh, I hate that weapon so much. I just, today, after 80 hours... got the because there's like uh there's like a basically a quest i think to uh prevail on mount olympus with each weapon which i think you get after your first win on uppies

You get that quest because it like auto completes the first one with whatever it was that you were successful with, obviously. And so, yeah, I only just after 80 hours finally got my Explodey Skull win. And I was like, never again am I picking up.

this weapon yeah it's not it's not my favorite uh i think i tried i tried mixing it up a little bit by doing an alt weapon of that one and it still it still didn't it's yeah was not my was not my fave there is one daedalus hammer enchantment that makes it so the skulls come back to you and i found when i got that that run was enjoyable i was like okay now i can see but like having to like run over and get my skulls all the time

I was like, oh, this is taking me out of my, like, flow. I think your Omega special brings them back to you. Yeah, I don't Omega very much. I see that we have some stuff to talk about. I very much favor, depending on what weapon I'm using, but I very much favor an attack buff. Like, I just want to hit X and hit as hard as I possibly can. I also really like the giant axe for basically that same reason. It's just swing and kill everything. Swing and kill everything.

So to give a little bit of context for those of you that either haven't played much or you played the first game, there's a new, there are a bunch of new systems in Hades 2. Like a bunch of them. Like a lot.

more than we'll cover in the show, even though we'll get to a bunch of them. But the biggest one for the combat and the actual runs, there's a new mana system, just a blue bar above your health bar. And there's a new thing called Omega Attacks, where when you hold down either your attack, your special...

or your cast uh then it uses it charges up it uses up some of your mana uh and then it does the thing that's more or different something else like you know for the giant axe if you hold it down on the on the base form you spin in circles and you hit things with it um you know the the

The cast is the one that I think is mostly the same with all of them. In this game, your cast is not a little red projectile. It's an ensnaring circle on the floor. And when you hold it down, it deals damage when it expires. Your magic refills each room, but not in each room unless you get an ability to do so. And I have personally seen a lot of different ways that people engage with this. I use my omegas all the time. But people that were more familiar with the first game.

from what I've seen, tend to lean away from them, at least at first. And also it's just additional button presses and mechanics and numbers to keep track of. So there are certainly builds in the game where you don't need them, and I think that you can probably get through the game without a period. But it is definitely a...

a different layer to the game that didn't exist in the first one. Uh, that's really meant to contrast the main character of this game, Malinaway, who is a, she's trained by witches. She's, she leans into. witches and magic and all that stuff. Enchantments. In the first game, Zagreus does not have any of that skill set. He wasn't trained to do that. He just hits things. And so the characters play pretty differently.

There's a lot of structure from the first game that is similar in the second game, but there's definitely enough diversity here that it feels like an authentic and familiar experience, but not just a rehash of the first one. It's meaningfully different in how the games play. Which maybe that's why I enjoyed it so much is because I hadn't already played the first game. So I wasn't kind of like burnt out on that moveset or those mechanics or anything like that.

So just to jump into it and get comfortable in a roguelike setting that I don't normally play, that's why I don't engage with the Omega system quite as much is because like the basic attacks and specials is plenty for me. um like i really didn't need any any extra layers because i found like if i just kind of like picked a thing right off the get-go and was like okay i'm gonna do my best to empower you know my specials or my casts or my basic attack or whatever like if it says

omega or if it has the like star magic mana symbol i just ignored that completely and chose the other thing and that made it actually quite easy for me to then make a build that worked is i was just like if i ignore this system then i'm gonna be a lot better off it's like um I don't know, like the minion types in Hearthstone. It's like, oh, if I just get all the beasts, then things are going to be easier. Yep. And you can play that way. It's the game.

As always, just like Hades 1, there are a bunch of ways to play that doesn't really feel like an incorrect way. Until you start getting into the really high-level, high-difficulty optional runs that are way past the ending, you can kind of do whatever you want once you learn the game. Ryan, I am curious, how did you find yourself playing? Yeah, well, it's funny because it had been so long since I played Hades that I didn't understand the controversy around the mana bar because I was like...

I could have sworn there was some sort of second bar in the 80s one. I must not have played it enough or remembered enough of it. There kind of was. There kind of was? Yeah, okay. The call bar. That was kind of there in the first one. It's still kind of here now. It's just hidden under a moon. Oh, that's right. Yeah. I do like that too. But no, as I played more and more.

I was following through on unlocking the weapons one by one and slowly upgrading everything over time. And I think at first I was choosing the weapon that offered the bonus. And then I started to realize I was only successful and or having the most fun when I was playing weapons that I that I really enjoyed. I think I think I think I really did just.

I'm fine with all the weapons except for the skull. I have not unlocked the last one, but the way I've been playing is just kind of... Oh, the last one's pretty fun. Is it? Okay, I haven't gotten there yet. uh i'm i'm close uh actually i haven't even seen the resource yet so i guess i'm not i'm not that close but um the way i've been playing is is kind of using everything at my disposal because uh and and just like

button mashing for for as much as i can as much as i can and i do like i do like the abilities to um to hold down the buttons to do the omega uh moves and but it's it's mostly one type per weapon Like I don't actually, except for maybe the, I think it's the first weapon that you get the, the staff.

I think it's a staff of some kind. Yep. I use both there. I do not use the cast Omega very often. I just found anytime I was trying to use an Omega ability, I took hits. And I was like, hmm, if I just... do stuff that's faster and I don't have to stand there and channel, then I have more health and then I am more successful.

That's fair. I've seen people have that experience, too. I mean, there are some cards that will help you with this. By the way, Arcana cards, again, to support the system to make sure that we give definitions. So I used to have a Hearthstone podcast, and I knew that when new expansions came out... out we would get comments every week like can you explain what these cards do like i don't play the game for a job like you do it's like

all right it's fine so speaking of explaining cards let's explain the cards so uh in the first game this honestly this system is why i thought it was a card game is because you were so into it and i saw a screenshot of like arcana cards and i was like this is a card game it's like slay the spire right no hat i'm not playing this shit like it's yeah it's i i'm glad i'm glad that you tried it anyways um because obviously it's great

Jocelyn just laughed so hard she had to mute because she's definitely having a coughing fit. I'm sorry, Jocelyn. Also, I'm proud of myself. So I hope you can accept both of those. Okay, so in the first game, there is something called the Mirror of Night. which is you earn unlock abilities to level it up. It makes your character more powerful. This is frequently referred to, by the way, as a roguelite, not a roguelike.

I'll note, if anyone wants to debate this definition with you, just don't tell them they're right and stop where you are. But generally speaking, roguelike means you don't get stronger outside of the runs. You only get powerful inside the runs that are resets.

there's meta progression that means your character and your abilities get stronger over time as you do more runs permanently. Hades and Hades 2 were both firmly in that. And the first game was called the Mirror of the Night. You had a bunch of rows of talents, basically.

There were two options per row, a red one and a green one. You picked one, you leveled it up, you unlocked it, you got more powerful. Hades 2 is much more involved. There is a 5x5 grid of cards. They each have point costs. They each do different things. You can also level all of these up. So you really get to customize your loadout in a different kind of way where everyone's Arcana grid will be a little bit different. One thing I do want to point out about the grid itself.

is that it really kind of groups similar abilities together so like your um abilities to like re-roll things are all in the bottom left corner the stuff that's really about your magic stuff is in the top right the stuff

It's about the boons that you get from the other Olympians is in the bottom right. And then there's like the kind of like strength and death defy, which I want to have a conversation about. Are we strength gamers or death defy gamers? Because I am a hardcore strength gamer. I love that card. So anyways, that's all kind of in the middle. I guess.

Yeah, like I will say that I die a lot. So I mostly go death defy as much as possible, including that whole tooth thing whenever possible. The golden tooth. Yeah, I started playing like that. And then I did a couple.

runs uh with strength and it has a 35 damage reduction and it's really significant like if you kind of go looking for hearts to increase your max health it's Usually I can get through an end boss fight with the knuckle bones from Odysseus and strength, and I have about 200 to 250 health, and that's plenty.

So, yeah, strength, strength gaming. What a gamer. What a gamer. I could try more of this. This sounds awesome. And so this is the great thing I love about this system is that everyone will have their own experience. So, like, about Omegas, there are some cards.

Cards that slow everything down around you when you're doing omega casts or reward your omega damage. There are a bunch of different things. Also note, omega casting, while you're channeling, you can move. You can dash while you're doing that. So that's something that I've noticed. Like my, my wife is further ahead in the game than I am. She beat, she beat upstairs before I did. Uh, but she didn't know that you could move or dash while you were channeling your Omega cast. So basically.

my approach for magic most of the time is i just channel the omega cast on cooldown and everything else i just do whatever um unless i have a bunch of omega abilities but you can do that you can do not that you can do all sorts of things the game is really built for players to experiment and i will note

As I said in the difficulty discourse last week, Joss, you weren't here, but I envisioned you like viscerally nodding along at home, is that there's an option in the menu called God Mode. And when you check it... you automatically get, I think, a 20% damage reduction. And the more runs you do without winning, that damage reduction goes up. So you take less damage and less damage and less damage.

If you want to hear more of the story and the more trouble you have, the more it helps you because the point is that games are for everyone and you can check this box at any time, uncheck it at any time. The characters in the game never acknowledge it. It has no impact on the game.

Outside of the damage reduction, there's no in-universe anything. The only thing the game does, it stores god mode and non-god mode records separately. I had no idea that that was an option. That's amazing. That's great. Yep. It was in the first one, too. It was in this one.

And I think it is the gold standard for approachability options. I'm not going to call it difficulty because I'm not here for the discourse. I'm going to say approachability options. I can hand this game to someone that's not as good at stuff like this.

Even if they're not god gamers like Joss, who just discovers this latent roguelike ability, someone can just check the box and you just play the game and you get to experience the story. And there's no controversy. It's just a good game that you can play how you want to play it. I like that. I do kind of I like the idea of damage reduction because then it means like it's not necessarily making it easier. You don't have to take like less time against a boss necessarily.

you're still probably going to have to execute the different abilities and take the time and do the damage and everything else. It's just that you're less likely to get kicked out and have to start over. And I feel like that is a... really good way to approach it as someone who often gets tunnel vision and hit by a lot of kids i did appreciate that with the arcana system that like as someone who's not a

like a min maxer card builder sometimes i'll look at i'll i'm like a guide person like give me the best build i remember exposition 33 is like give me the best build at this part of the game for this character and then like seek that out check the list off and then have a bunch of fun with, with somebody else's work. Uh, I haven't done that with Hades too, but I really do feel like I've been able to just kind of Ryan my way through it and still.

have a lot of fun, engage with the systems that I know I've unlocked in there. And, and I feel like maybe once I max out the, the Arcana, uh, grasp or whatever, cause you have a specific amount of.

grasps you can use which is the points you put into the cards and that's your limiter um and there's not a bunch of cards like there's i think maybe 30 in total which is 20 25 25 which is like such a nice low number for uh in video games i applaud them for not going crazy and being like you get a hundred different cards to choose from and

It's one screen. You see it all in one go. You can upgrade them later on when you unlock that system. And I just really appreciate the fact that there's a small amount of options.

for each little subsystem you can engage with to sort of modify your run depending on how you're feeling. You're not forced into anything. You can engage with... specific systems that like maybe encourage you to experiment a little bit but at the end of the day it sounds like you can very much roll credits without you know going down those paths that are very clearly optional as had had said so i do appreciate that as someone who's like not very good at

like building decks in video games like i feel like i've done okay with hades 2 and its card system yeah and i have to give credit to this design team again uh but hades 2 more so than hades 1 here This is a complex game that feels like a simple one all the time, but...

Like you said, there's one screen of cards. Okay, 25 cards, 30 points, infinite permutations. You have to level them all up three times. Then you move away to the weapon select screen. There are six weapons, each with four aspects, 24 options there. And then you have five different animal familiars that you can level up.

up and then you've got 27 different keepsakes you go back to the incantations you got the ingredient screen you have a bunch of different boons that all have different duo conditions like fractal depth yes unless replayability but You never feel that overwhelmed. Maybe when you're looking at the ingredient list, I do think that's a little bit too much information digested. Once I just play the game and then when something lights up, I press the button.

But otherwise, all of these different systems, there is so much depth that you can explore and understand here, but you don't have to. And it never feels like you're being overwhelmed with the sheer volume of information where you just have too much to do. So it's really just masterful crafting here from a team that did a fantastic job the first time, made one of the best games I've ever played.

you know uh nominated for game of the year and like was a real sensation during the uh the late 2020 when we were all still indoors um really incredible game and had like i played I think somewhere between 300 or 400 hours of the first one, and this game somehow builds and improves upon a lot of aspects of it. I was thinking about this, talking about it with a couple people, but thinking about it. I think the comparison that I want to make, for me personally at least...

is Hades 2 is to Hades 1 as Ragnarok is to God of War 2018. Because I will note, Hades 2 is a great game. I think system-wise and depth-wise, it's probably better than the first one.

I don't know if anything will ever replace the experience of getting lost in Hades 1. during 2020 when we're all desperate for a win and this game came out and like I kept staying up till four or five in the morning playing it over and over again started a Hades podcast like I was in like fully in it was a special moment a special experience I think that

If I were new to both games today, I would say Hades 2 is probably better crafted. But the special moment that Hades 1 had for me, I'm not sure I'm ever going to beat that. And when I look at the story, now, I don't know the ending to this one. And Joss doesn't know the ending to the last one. So we'll have to see. We'll have to talk about it later when all three of us have gotten through it. I don't know if the story sticks the landing the same way. For me, God of War 2018.

That was a big world, but a story that was ultimately pretty small in scope was about a father and son. And their family. And the mom who had passed on. And then God of War 2. Like Ragnarok was the Avengers. It was huge. It was everybody. There's all sorts of stuff going on. Hades 2 definitely feels like it adds characters in a way that.

I don't feel as connected to individuals anymore. And there aren't quite as many endearing characters in this one. And Aeris is a little stinker. But it's still like... a really remarkable step forward in terms of gameplay and structure and systems when those are already pretty good in the first one. Curious to hear from both of you if that resonates with the experience right. I'm going to start with you.

uh yeah i i remember from the first one there were very specific characters that you'd engage with along and it was always one run right like it was it was one run unless i'm i never got that far and there was

Yeah, I'm showing my cards. There was no uppies. Yeah. There was just four biomes in a row. They were always the same ones as opposed to, and that's an important point. We've mentioned uppies and downies, but have to explain what those are. In Hades 2, there are two different... four biome runs so you can either go downstairs or up the stairs and each one of those is four biomes in a row and they're completely separate no shared enemies

No shared biomes. No shared worlds. Completely different mechanically. Completely different bosses. It's double the run variety. Double the game there. In terms of where you go. And these aren't just like. different art style. Some of these are mechanically distinct in a way that the first game didn't really do either. You can see it already in the first area of upstairs.

It's like you enter into the cityscape where you see multiple different options and you can kind of choose your own path. It's really cool. The third area downstairs. uh called the morning fields it's like it's a wide open area it's really cool and different and they feel distinct uh gameplay wise not just design wise

Yeah, I think the city is actually one of my, if not my favorite zone, just because you can see every single reward that you're going to get in a biome at the same time. So you get the overview of the city. It's, I think, a craftable, unlockable bonus. And you can see every or you can just at any time run around the whole city and try to remember everything that's there. But like it's a whole bunch of basically doors. You're like going into the houses or going down the streets and.

Every single one of those doors has like what the reward is for that area. So there's no guesswork. It's just this is what you're going to get. And you can be like, OK, if I really love like Zeus, Aphrodite, Hephaestus. You can go for that and ignore all the other stuff. And I found that that made it a lot easier to kind of make a consistent build going.

the upstairs route is because like you you know right in that very first biome exactly what's coming which yeah i i think that might be my favorite spot in the game because of that mechanical choice yeah

I really did appreciate the change of the zones and opening them up a bit more. It really did feel like that moment where you have this like very... specific game made by a small team and then they like well how do we how do we see how do we build a sequel well it's got to be bigger and they went down that path they made it bigger they expanded areas and they experimented with it

And made these like more open, well, they're not open world. You still have to complete like specific things to get to the next stage. But they are like a little more spread out. And I did appreciate sort of that mechanic. Um, like to jump back to, I think we were talking about like characters and stuff in terms of are there, are the characters as endearing as, as the first one. I think what they do is they treat this as a sequel and that they take.

a lot of the characters that you engage with in the first one, either remove them from the playing field or delay them and kind of, you know, front load. like half new and half, you know, favorites from the first game. And, you know, I did appreciate that. I... But yeah, maybe you're right, though. There's only a few characters that I absolutely beeline for.

uh, in each run and, and have to have a conversation with them. And they're mostly story related. And one's pretty late in the game that I don't, I don't want to spoil, uh, at this stage, but, um, yeah, there, I, I don't think there's really anybody I dislike. chatting with uh in in this game and i know you've mentioned eris but like maybe maybe with enough uh nectar of the gods she will come around just just like you waste your nectar on her

Everybody's got to be maxed out. You want that achievement? You got to be nice to Strife. You have to be. Joss is going to be a conscientious objector. I've been waiting for when you said, I don't think there's anyone I dislike. I was like, I could hear Joss cracking her knuckles. Yeah, 100%. I literally gave her enough nectar to get her keepsake. And then I was like, every time I go by, I'm just flipping her off. Yeah, 100%. Do you clean up after her when she throws her? No. What are those?

dirty little i think they're like candy wrappers okay because i was like is that like tissues or what is she throwing on the ground but yeah candy wrappers yeah i think they look like candy wrappers anyways yeah no i just flip her off and keep going and they do something so great i'm pretty much uh I think I've maxed out. And maybe this is probably more narrative conversation. Is there anything else that we want to talk about that is mechanical before we jump into kind of narrative?

Romance options. Yeah. Romance. I see. I didn't even know there were romance options until just last week when we were, it was, it was going around in the discord. Uh, there were options. Um, I think from a gameplay perspective, we did touch on, you know, the different routes you can take. And I like that ability because I feel like any time I get sick of a run.

uh or sick of a a path i could just like you know what i'm going screw this i'm going upstairs this time yeah i'm going upstairs and i think that and they're so varied like as had said they're very different and That can be both good and bad. Good in the sense that if you get sick of one, you can go to the other. Bad in the sense that like you lose a little bit of that muscle memory. Like I had completed the down route twice in a row.

And then I was like, oh, I should just keep doing it because I'm on a roll. And then I'm basically, well, then I'm like farming it. Maybe I should, you know, now that I'm more powerful, you know, go up the stairs and make some progress there. So I. it's, it's been, it's not been bad, but it's just been like, Oh, it's good. But like, maybe it's maybe now I'm going to, I'm going to have to struggle a little bit going, going down next time. So I don't know, like, uh, that's been tough.

It is kind of interesting because you have to like, because there are different resources available to you up and down. You do have that's kind of one more decision, like how it was talking about the potential complexity and just like even trying to remember what you need, what you're trying to do, which way you should go, because you're always going to need stuff from up and down.

But it's like, okay, what is my priority right now? Am I trying to upgrade one specific weapon? Am I trying to do a specific incantation? Am I trying to finish one of the faded list items, like do one of the quests? What's my goal? And I swear I had to like make little sticky notes and be like, next time you log in, you need to go upstairs to beat this boss because you need another this thing.

It's very easy to lose track of which way you should go. The forget-me-nots stuff. There's that insane system of the forget-me-nots, like you're saying. They work really well until you just add it to everything and then... And you're like, oh, I need everything. There's a remember me not at that point. Yeah. And it's like, I will say it's a little bit overwhelming trying to keep track of that stuff. And it's generally better to, I think, just.

go with your heart and, and kind of split the difference evenly. But I do think there are a couple of notes here that this had a little bit more friction than I was expecting. And maybe that's intentional. Maybe it isn't. I don't really know. Like they're smart game designers. I'm sure there's some reason behind it. I do think that it's interesting that there are.

Some things that are gated behind interactions in each of the biomes were, like I mentioned earlier, so again, as a mild spoiler, you unlock animal familiars. To do that, you have to... go downstairs a certain number of times and so i got hard locked in i'm like i'm gonna push through upstairs i have to clear downstairs i haven't pushed upstairs i did like five in a row and my wife's planning is like where's your frog

She had a frog and I didn't have a frog and I wanted the frog. And so it turns out that's based on doing a certain number of downstairs runs. I tunnel vision. I didn't get it. So on the one hand, there are different experiences, different players. That's cool. On the other hand.

I just didn't even know it was missing it. And I just, I think that's, that's an interesting byproduct of this design choice. I don't think it's necessarily bad, but I do think that this team clearly is focused on the idea of variety is.

what they want to inject into the gameplay and they've made decisions about that everywhere not just the dark thirst system but the oath the unseen there's also there are the chaos trial runs which i think are really really cool uh there's a the pitch black stone in the camp that you unlock after i think one win i got locked out of stuff because i wasn't um interacting with the stone very much because i like i looked at it and i i guess this is kind of a hades 2 tip i thought it was like

once you're super good at the game once you've played it a whole ton go do the chaos stone right because these are challenges Whereas that's more what the Oath of the Unseen is. So that's, Ryan, I'm not sure if you're quite this far yet, but you can, there's basically a fountain you can interact with that sits between the gates to up and down.

and you can add modifiers to your run to get more rewards it's like the super end game system so you can make your enemies more powerful you can give them wards which is basically like blocks all damage uh thing you can um add oh the one that i usually often do is um like shielded enemies get an extra ability because i can melt shield enough that i don't even care anymore so

Like, there's a whole bunch of different things that you add to get more rewards. That's the endgame thing, but I thought the Chaos Stone was the endgame thing. But that's almost a, hey, these are what your new weapon unlocks are. And it's almost like a...

They're like custom. Yeah, like it's almost a tutorial, but there is some level of difficulty. So I don't want to call it a tutorial. But there's like their custom levels that kind of introduce you to aspects of the weapons you may not have engaged with. yet so it's kind of like a hey this is how powerful this thing can be

why don't you go try it? And I thought it was like really, really hard and challenging. So I didn't engage with it. So I didn't have very much of, I think the stardust is what you get out of that. So yeah, I got locked out of a lot of stuff because I didn't have that currency. And I was like, how do I get that currency? Oh, do a billion chaos runs. Okay. And some of them are really easy. They're single biome. They're actually super short.

yeah like the first one the the trial of origin is like you have a thousand health like you can just you can play with your face and it's fine um yeah so it's so there are a bunch of those like and they're all distinct they have unique mechanical things like they're cool it's interesting it's designed to give you currency it shows off the weapons and it adds variety if you if and if you have a dark thirst that you don't like the chaos trial the chaos runs

They actually move it. It counts as a run. It counts as a night. Oh. Yeah, so it's really cool. So if you are faced with some rough edge that you don't want to deal with, you can just do a one-by-one run in four minutes, and then you have a different Dark Thirst option and another resource. So it's really cool. There's variety everywhere.

But the other thing that's a bit of a, I'm not going to call it a pain point. I'm going to call it a friction point. Because it changes the decision making and it has a feeling. Upstairs is way harder. Way harder.

Like, I don't think it's unreasonably so, but I thought downstairs was tough and I thought the downstairs final boss was tough. And I was like, all right, I'm getting pretty good. This night went upstairs and they got my ass kicked like multiple times. And so like, it's different. It's unique. i love the vibe of it all like the energy is there the the final upstairs area is like it's super oppressive and it's meant to feel that way uh but it does feel meaningfully harder

And so I'm at the point now where a downstairs run will feel relaxing and upstairs will feel really challenging. And I'm just, you know, I have to psych myself up for the upstairs runs. And then going downstairs, it feels like I'm on a little vacation. For a really, really, really long time, I had to use keepsakes to guarantee a certain build to get by the third boss of Upstairs.

And, like, he is still really challenging, but I've now upgraded my weapons and upgraded all my Arcana to the point that I am, like, not just walking over him. Like, I still need to be very careful, but he is... so hard that i literally i had to like make sure i had my dash block from athena i had to make sure i had weak from aphrodite for again damage reduction i went in with my strength builds i was dodging

like crazy because like you get hit with this stuff and it's like bam 60 health bam 60 health how yeah i faced him once and uh i was i was First starstruck and then second defeated quite quickly. Well, and he was so hard and you thought he was the last boss. I did. Yes, I did. Also, don't you mean Ben Starstruck? Yes. Yeah, he's pretty great. I knew he was in it because I saw there was a big announcement for the early access patch that we added Ben Star and I'm like, oh my gosh. And I...

That's all I saw. I was like, I'm waiting for 1.0, even if this is the Ben Star patch. And sure enough, I'm like, oh, do I Google it? When's he going to show up? And he's fairly late in the game. But yeah, I... Imagine having 30 hours and thinking you're late into the game. I'm hopeful I'm late in the game because, you know, 30 hours is a long time to spend on a video game.

But yeah, I lore wise, he didn't seem like the final boss, but he it was hard to tell because I think that's well, I guess that is only the third area in that. Yeah.

Ryan, I'll tell you, when you see the final boss of that upstairs in the fourth era, you'll know it's the final boss. It is extremely final bossy. You will see this dumb idiot's big head and you'll be like... i don't know how i thought ben star was the final boss yeah true also is very cinematic cool i was not sure about who ben star was and so i just googled him and it said he was in date everything and i was like

It's Dorian. No wonder I love him. He plays Verso in Expedition 33. He plays Clive in Final Fantasy 16. And most importantly, in the live action ads for Bellator where there's a Joker, that's him. yeah he also had a light shined on him in the game awards one year so there you go yeah uh yeah so uh so yeah that is the the third boss upstairs definitely is

I think more difficult than the final boss. I beat the final boss quite quickly in comparison to all the trouble that I had with the third boss there. Okay. Yeah. The boss of the fourth area is the fourth area. You will take a ton of damage going through there. There are a couple mini-bosses. The guaranteed mini-boss in that area, because there's one that I think you see every time, is a huge pain in the ass.

You gotta both stay close, not stay too close. I don't think he sees anything every time. Upstairs? Okay, maybe I've just gotten unlucky and seen it twice. It's the thing that looks like the... I'll avoid being specific, but you know, you ever played Super Mario RPG? It's the boss that looks like the sword that hits the castle? I think you're guaranteed to get a part of the final boss. I'll put it that way, but there are more parts than the sword-looking one.

it's it listeners at home it's just a sword it don't yeah no no it's not no it's oh oh no you you said you said the sword looking part that he hits you with like anyway listen this is a family show um But the last thing that I'll say, sorry, Ryan. I don't know. Spoilers? You don't get with the final boss's sword. So anyway, Joss is going to die live on air.

Before we get to the narrative, the last thing that I want to cover here, and the narrative will segue into this because I think it's a big part of it. Why play this game if you don't like Roblox? Well, I've got good news. If you play Hades, you'll be like, hey, I actually like some roguelikes. That has been my experience so far with basically everybody I've introduced this to, with one exception, whirlwind, lovey buddy. Don't worry, you can skip this section.

He might have jumped to the news section. I don't know. He probably is not hearing this right now. Hey, Quirrell. this is your Easter egg. And if you're in the discord and you're not world, tell them the timestamp. So that's just to, just to save everybody some time. Anyways, uh, teaching a discord shout out. Great place. Hades and Hades to both did this thing. Well,

First of all, they don't make death feel like a consequence. They make it feel like a progression. You unlock new narrative when you get back home. There are people and characters that you connect with that you feel invested in, and they have new dialogue. The game has an insane, absurd, ridiculous amount of dialogue.

more than you think there is however much you think there is as more i don't think i've had duplicates yet still still it is it is a disco elysium level of dialogue volume like i had a buddy in the first game he got new dialogue on his 900th run like you are not going to hit the cap whatever you think there is there's always more narrative there's always more dialogue

I was curious because like at the end of every single, like once you're like post credits, post epilogue at the end of every single success, Homer, the narrator. uh he basically does like a little like blurb for you and like it's i'm just like i've gotta hit it i've gotta hit a point where they don't have any more like it's fully voiced it's totally different every time it's like hey this is what has just happened like well done i'm like

This must be generated, right? Like, there's no way someone sat down and recorded 500 of these. And no, I actually think someone sat down and recorded 500 of them. Not just someone. Logan Cunningham. And yes, he did. So for reference, in the first game, they counted the game data. There are 21,020 unique voice lines in the first game. This game is about twice as large.

By the way, in that first game, 120 of those voice lines were for Charon, a character who speaks entirely in unintelligible groans. He literally like Chewbacca. It's the same thing. They all understand him, but you will not ever. And they all like speak to him in normal conversations in the original game. which is about half the size of this one, 120 unique Charon... Wow. Grumble. So...

Crumbles, yeah. The sheer amount of craft and care that went into every aspect of this game. Darren Korb, he's the sound director. He does all the music. He composes it. He plays it. He mixes it. By the way, he's also, in the first game, the voice actor for Zagreus. And in this game, he's the voice actor for Skelly, as he was in the first game. Like, that is their sound and music director that also voiced the main character in the first game. There's a great six-part documentary on Noclip.

called developing hell where they talk about the development of Hades one and they go into every part of it. This is a sensational team, a small independent team, somewhere between 20 and 30 people. They left the AAA games industry. They founded this company together. They're big on talent perpetuity. They all work together. They have for many, many years.

this uh hades one was their fourth game together hades two is their fifth you can feel in every aspect of this game this is crafted with love passion care and time and the the bonus and benefit of talent, of people that know each other well and built something beautiful together and wanted to do it again with Hades 2. So you feel progression when you die.

The game is built that you can throw stuff together and it just works, but also it guides you towards finding more synergistic stuff without you even realizing it. It pulls you through complicated systems in simple ways. The execution is just so sensational. Well, Joss, I mean, you can tell us you are an anti-roguelike person and you are, you have more time in this game than Ryan and I combined.

Yes, correct. I don't need to Hadesplain for you. Tell us. No, I was going to say, this literally is why we brought you on here. A level of knowledge of Hades 1 is insane over here for that. Because I haven't even played Hades 1. like that is how like disengaged i was with not only this franchise but this type of game period and i was like okay you know what it was i think i said this a couple weeks ago it was silksong

I was like, you know what? Silksong looks really cool. I have a friend who really loved the first one, who loved Hollow Knight. I am going to try this. It's getting all these great reviews. Like, I'm going to see how it goes. And obviously, we all know how that ended. But it did kind of open me up to some new genres. made me think that hey maybe i you know i just i will try this everyone's talking about hades 2 i know hat loved hades

I bought Hades and never actually played it. So you know what? I'm going to I'm just I'm going to jump into Hades 2. I had a similar conversation that I had with my friend about Silksong. I had with Hat. I was like, do I need to play Hades 1?

to enjoy Hades 2 no new character perfect so I jumped into Hades 2 and absolutely love it it is oh my god the soundtrack the soundtrack is so good it's so good and there is a there's a mechanic later on incredible yeah yeah like as you kind of like upgrade your bass where you can essentially get a dj and go and tell the DJ like what songs to play and it's just so freaking good oh my god

the whole time like it pulls you through to the point and it's like seamless like you don't even kind of realize that the the song has changed and the mood has changed until you're like wait a minute i feel i feel different like i'm not like Go, go, go. Now I feel like I'm being like, like you say, some of it is oppressive. Like some of it is meant to make you feel some kind of way. And oh, it's so good. It's just so.

Again, I think it comes down to, and we're going to talk about it in a second, the narrative, because it is so well crafted, it makes me want to engage with a game that I wouldn't have.

otherwise because it pulls you like hat just said it pulls you through and gives you kind of like breadcrumbs as to not only what's happening but how to get through it mechanically and i feel like it is a little bit more accessible like i said off the top of the show it's a little bit more accessible in its systems than other roguelikes because i feel like other roguelikes or rogue lights have really like punished you or i felt punished anyways as a player

Because I had less agency, because I had less comfort picks available to me every single time. And so that just that small change. made it more accessible and made me get through it and then engage with other things and kind of branch out as I got more comfortable in the game. So it was like it kind of like eased me into the idea of a rogue. Sorry, I've already forgotten which term I should be using yet.

Just say roguelike. If anyone argues with you about the penantry of it, just be like, we don't have to do this. It's not necessary. It's the one with the progression where it's like, even when you fail.

you've gotten some currency you can go back and you can make your character stronger and i think that's that's the kind of um like where it's giving me more than just knowledge like you're getting knowledge plus that's the kind of reoccurring repetitive game rogue whatever that i like yes rogue light is the term that you're looking for because like is the hard one and light is the

air quotes easier one first of all don't care about difficulty discourse today or really in general but second of all uh meta progression is cool actually because finishing games is cool and also as you've noticed even at 80 hours even though you've gotten through

pretty much all the story content that you still want to do run later. I bet you still want to do one. Oh, 100%. I still have like 10 achievements to go. So there are things to be found, conversations to be had, achievements to be done. So yeah. I do 100% want to go and do more later. But yeah, should we jump into the narrative talk now? Well, Ryan, do you have any thoughts about what Hades does as a roguelike better than anyone else?

uh that makes it appealing and then feel free to take us and we can talk about abs that's the story point yeah the final boss is just abs it's it's with a sword evidently Oh no, Ryan, you're making it worse. You're making the sword reference worse. No, like a real sword in the abs hands. It's fine. Anyways, we'll get there. We'll get to the story in a bit, Jocelyn. Stop trying to get us to talk about the sword and the abs and all that.

Okay, no. I think I like a good roguelike, but where I do kind of fall off the trail is when... um it i i hit a wall and a lot of these games have these walls that you'll hit that you're all you're supposed to push through that's part of the game and hades 2 has walls sometimes that will will pop up but there's always something else you can do like i found as i was hitting a progression wall something else was like

We know we put this here, but also there's these challenges. Also, you can start to unlock the route to go up the stairs, and you can kind of distract yourself and come back and progress. And I think that's where a lot of... roguelikes fail is that they don't offer you enough options to sort of progress elsewhere and kind of have a change of scenery so

Sometimes roguelikes will do that based on like, well, it's the variation that offers the spice of life as you're going through the game. That's what keeps you going. But Hades 2 is like, no, we're going to offer you options.

We're going to offer you different progression avenues. And you get to talk to some abs along the way. So I think that's where Hades 2 really... uh really works in for me and why even after 30 hours as i joked you know there can't be much more because how could i spend more than 30 hours i've got you know I've got Final Fantasy VII Rebirth to ignore for the memes here over Discord, but it's not my fault Hades 2 takes 80 hours. So I've got at least another Rebirth to go. So, sorry.

uh whirlwind but uh but yeah let's talk about the story because i i really do think that this story unlike the first one kicks off in a way that is less like uh the stakes are there very present at the beginning i feel like comparing it to the first one like i'm just i'm gonna have no frame of reference whatsoever but i do agree with you in that like

because of the way and we should probably say this is where our big we're in the narratives this is the big spoilers like yeah flashing spoiler warning here but um millennia we okay first and foremost i am gonna say narratively I found out playing this game that I have been pronouncing names wrong in my head for like literally 30 years. I don't know how to say.

any of them out loud because a lot of them i just read and so therefore everyone you're gonna have to bear with me because i'm gonna say them wrong 100 times over. So apologies in advance. Turns out it's not Thanomatose. It's not Polyphemous. Sure. That as well. Yeah. And and. I just kind of go at the end of the word in my head because like, who knows how to say that? I don't know. We've all read Lord of the Rings and we've done it.

Basically, yeah, it's a charybdis. Charbidus is pretty fucking funny, but that's not how you say that. What? Right? I don't even know who that is. Is that Ben? No, that's not Ben Star. Charybdis is the... It's the sea monster miniboss upstairs on Biome 2. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, there's a famous thing.

um in the odyssey is they have to navigate between sylla and charybdis are the two uh the two monsters which is you know it's the that is transformed to the modern saying between rock and hard place um which is also referenced later in the game in a very funny way that I will not go into here because I don't ever have that experience. But yeah, Charybdis is the sea monster miniboss upstairs.

Again, a character I'm very familiar with. I knew immediately and then somebody said their name and I was like, excuse me. Yeah, so many of those things happened to me in this game. So yeah, sorry in advance for my pronunciations. It's going to be terrible. I love that your experience with this story is I read the Odyssey. And here I am sitting here like I watched the Disney cartoon and the sequel straight to VHS. So this is the two levels we're coming at here for the Greek story.

Oh, man. But yeah, I think narratively, having Milenawe train for her entire life for this single purpose. kind of throws you right off the deep, like into the deep end, right from the get-go, right? Kronos has taken over. He's frozen my whole family, which includes, which I thought that this was, even without playing Hades 1, I thought this was really interesting that they kind of tell you right off the get-go, like our protagonist from the first game is not here because he's been frozen.

in time by our antagonist of the second game so get over it like you have to go save the protagonist of the first game have at it and it kind of like instantly put stakes in your face of like this is his sister and she has to go save her family go it's like if you cared about the protagonist in hades one you're gonna instantly care about the story in hades two

At least I would assume. Again, someone who didn't care about, or didn't play, not didn't care about, didn't play Hades 1. Speaking of someone that played Hades 1 on occasion, yes, that is true. Excellent. I'm glad I got the vibes down. But yeah, I thought that was a really smart choice is to like in a sequel to kind of like.

immediately throw you into the drama immediately throw you into the problem like this isn't some sort of like slow burn it's like hey you just came off of this story this one is related a new threat has come at least assume it's a new threat uh yeah chronos is here now and chronos is time which also i thought played so well into just the rogue nature of the game it's like Of course you have to go over and over and over again. He's time. Like, how do you fight time? Oh, it's so well done.

I felt like it's interesting because this is a sequel and it plays into sort of whether you have knowledge or not of the first one. Even if you didn't play the first one, I think, Jocelyn, you... understood that like shit has gone down. Like the underworld itself has been turned inside out. And at least Hades has been, has been imprisoned, which is. Not good. That's been established. Yes.

There is this overarching family of characters that we interacted countless times with in the first one that is, as you said, put on ice. And I really felt like the story discovery as you're going through... Because it's not made apparent that like, is this going to be like a Mario game where you go all the way to the end and then you get the thank you for playing and there's all the characters you saved.

No, you don't get that. You're getting as you go, you're progressing and you're you're learning the fates and engaging with these characters like throughout. the routes and and discovering their fates and interacting with them and i really appreciated that and it made those moments special uh because i i went in blind had no idea

We were going to be, you know, discovering some of this stuff. And I really appreciated that. And it made it... I would be curious to know, like, as someone who did not play Hades 1, did those moments, like... you know, stand out to you, Jocelyn? Or is it just like, oh, this is the guy or this is the person that's been referenced? Do you mean like when you actually like come upon Hades, like in the underworld? Yeah, that's a good one.

yeah i think well i again like being familiar with greek mythology and and gods and stuff like that like i i knew who like hades was and his wife was and that whole story which they very much glossed over a lot of They're a happily married couple in the video games and didn't quite go down like that. They Disney it up a bit. Yeah, Disney it up. There's a whole bunch of that also with Hera had some trials and tribulations. Yeah.

It's... It's... back in the day you know what i won't get into details but yes uh disney-fied pg pg-13 version pg yeah pg versions yeah zeus has a line where he's like i have many sons and daughters and nieces and nephews and i'm like yeah i mean we've read we've read the stories and yes, yes. Yeah. Hercules, Hercules shows up and he's, or Heracles, I guess, as he's supposed to be called. I don't know. Is that the same person? I assume it is. He's got like a weird sort of.

bear coat or something bare skin yeah so yeah same same character um multiple like pronunciations multiple names but yeah same character they did not disney his name they kept the original which you know yeah that's good uh but no i i i think that those those moments as you're discovering new characters that were not in the first one and engaging with them and learning their story. And I also, I don't remember in Hades one, the gift system sort of.

impacting the characters sort of relationship with you. Like I, I kind of felt like it was, it was just a bar to fill in the first one. And I could be misremembering this. I'll refer to the person who had a Hades podcast in a bit here. Yeah.

i really did feel like in hades 2 that uh you as you engage with characters and offered them like gifts and stuff they warmed up to you and then you got more story and they were more willing to kind of like speak to you a lot of folks weren't really happy with you at the beginning specifically nim i interacted with them a lot so like i oh

Okay, but like... She's growing on me. You gotta give her more gifts. You don't want her to like step on you a little bit. Okay, she has big Lady D vibes. I will give you that. She's very tall and doesn't like us. Yes. You know how that goes. Eventually she kind of likes you. But yeah, she still very much does not like you as you progress.

brusque would be the kind word. And there are a couple moments where I really appreciate her dialogue because her character is so well-defined and true to herself. Like when she... It gives you the least clear compliment in the world says about time. Someone kicked Eris's ass. I usually have to do it myself. And then you try like Melanie tries to talk to her about like, well, it was the point of even all that. And she said.

you know she's just like learn to take a compliment next time yeah it's just very it's a very genuine gruff moment that nem is full of and i'm like clearly that thread like we need to pull that a little bit and untangle some of that tension but um She is an interesting character, and I have noticed a lot of polarizing reactions. I will note, Joss and my wife, who I think actually tend to see eye to eye in a lot of characters, really do not like Nemesis at first.

And I think that's kind of key, right, is at first. And I think that that's probably the same with Eris. And this kind of goes into your romance options. There's so few. I didn't really like I was super stuck. And like, so if when you go into your like a diary, whatever you're where all your information about all your characters is.

The ones that you can gift and kind of have stories that evolve over time have a whole bunch of like hearts at the bottom. And it's hearts for friendship. It's hearts for romance options. It's hearts for everybody.

um and so i kind i i assumed uh turns out wrongfully so that a lot of hearts means romance option so i was like hardcore oh my god i'm a romance odysseus this is gonna be amazing he's not an option and two of your options right straight out the get-go hate your face and i'm like this is so stupid i don't want to talk to either one of you more than i have to and that is eris and and nemesis and i'm like i just

like why i still still have not given eris more than just enough to get her keepsake and then yeah as soon basically like i gave her the nectar and then found out she was a boss and was like Well, fuck you then. That one's... I can understand that. I get it. She's littering all the time. She's constantly giving me a hard time. Oh, yeah.

She's the worst, the worst. And yeah, she's one of your only four romance options. And one of your romance options is like required for story purposes, which I was kind of like. oh okay which i am i am happy that the relationship system doesn't like force you to pick one or like have any like jealousy mechanic or anything like that like there's there's nothing like that so it's just basically like stuff like it's yeah you want to be poly all good no one cares so yeah it's very very

it's not punishing. I didn't... necessarily want to romance one of the characters all the way it might be punishing with nemesis it depends i haven't well yeah i mean she is definitely into that stuff This is a family show. What are the options? I mean, she just dropped an F-bomb. Oh, we only get one. I said one earlier. But anyway, spoilers. It'll be fine. So, spoilers. Spoilers, spoilers.

Icarus, Moros with those washboard abs. That's my favorite. Nemesis and Eris. I will say, now that you list them out, where I'm at in the game... You're kind of spot on, Jocelyn, in that Eris and Nem don't come across as romance options just from the way you interact with them. But I've only had a few interactions with Icarus.

And I got that sense that there's history there. Obviously, I also get the sense there's history with Eris, but it's like from an annoying side of history. And then Moros is just like this character that pops in.

milanoe knows of but they they do seem to grow uh close organically throughout throughout the course of the game because he pops in and you're standing right next to your quests yeah i mean he is like talk to him he is he is he is hovering over the task list board which is like occasionally

he'll go away but you know he's he's there most of the time uh and and he's he's fun to talk to as well like he's got a lot of interesting stuff to say in terms of Because he's very connected to the fates and being the harbinger of doom is not quite liked by anyone.

I mean, and I think that that was a really good place to start with his character, because I kind of immediately felt bad for him. I was like, man, your entire life is just... being there in people's worst moments like you are literally doom incarnate like that must suck What likes you? No one likes no one's like, oh, thank God. Doom is here. But he's got that personality where he's like, yep, that's kind of right. He's not. That's my life. Yeah. Yeah. He just seems to be.

cool with it uh but he still plays by all the rules of like well i can't tell you the future even though i kind of know but like it's to be faded check the list you know i just work here you know i don't manage the list i just stand by it it's like all right buddy all right also he he's got abs oh yeah he is the most he is the most ab forward of the romance options and out of the but i don't know compared to non-romance options

I don't know if he holds a candle to our boy Ben Starr up there. Oh! Talk about people that you... Yeah, talk about people that I really disliked off the get-go. but has grown on me like crazy because 80 hours into the game, I have gone through... I don't even know how many runs upstairs. And like we talked about earlier, the amount of voice lines and character growth is crazy. And the fact that it happens with bosses too is so cool.

And so over time, you learned like more about Prometheus's story. You've learned more about the other characters, gods, titans, mortals that he's interacted with. why he did what he did and then how he feels about things in like the post game and it's so well written i'm just like um I know we have to fight to the death every night, but also want to be my boyfriend? Okay, thanks. Bye.

Yeah, and the writing team, which is the script writer, Greg Kasavin, is the guy that mainly does all of the narrative in all of Supergiant's game. Incredible writer. In the first game... This happened too. The third boss in the first game is a pair. It's a duo. I thought you meant a pair like the fruit. I was like, I don't understand how that works, but maybe it's a Dionysus thing?

So it's Theseus and the Minotaur are the boss in the first game. They're the third boss. They have a multi-fight narrative arc where they're squabbling with each other like an old married couple. Because the Minotaur...

like tried to compliment you after gaining a begrudging respect for you over time. And Theseus is an asshole and took it personally. And so they have a multi fight arc where every time you get to them, they're at a different stage of the fight between each other. And they begrudging.

that to fight you so like this is just how they do it this is how greg does it and it's it's so fun to experience and the way that you interact with the world around you it feels like a living breathing thing that moves forward you're a part of it it's not your world right yes Yeah, that's a really good way to put it because it really felt like there were always things happening around me that I didn't necessarily.

know or understand like i mean i had a little bit of like inside baseball knowledge about some of the characters and some of their relationships like odysseus and cersei is a really good example And I don't know if you guys have noticed the pig Easter egg, which I thought for the longest time was a thing I had to solve.

in order to progress the relationship with Odysseus. But if you have read The Odyssey, you know that Cersei turns his crew into pigs. And there's one pig wandering around Cersei with an anchor tattoo. And an earring. And it's so good. Where's Cersei? Did I? Maybe I haven't got that far. Is that the final zone? She is the friend room in the second upstairs biome.

I don't think I found that yet. You might not have seen the friend room. Yeah, it happens every so often. And the friend rooms are... all like really great in this game um yeah uh the the third one upstairs is hilarious ryan i know you haven't gotten there yet i'm not gonna spoil it for you uh Oh, yeah. Talk about, oh, yeah. Now that's an abs and a sword. Yeah, I mean, it's... I thought we were talking about that earlier.

That character runs logistics, definitely like a delivery of a big package. But there's also this smooth jazz theme. of like the the area soundtrack but through like a smoothie jazz elevator music theme it just it gets me every time it's so so good uh his bonuses are hilarious as well uh yeah yeah i noticed one bonus when i got up there um but but yes i gotta go do a run real quick just uh let me go see if i can find it yeah

No, I really like the, what do you call them? The friend zones that you can go into? Yeah. I really like the spider. Spider's really cool. Arachne is great, yeah. And her story is so sad. Just like the story of her as a mortal turned spider. Yeah, she's not. She wouldn't talk to me for the longest time. yeah uh you you gotta you gotta sweeten her up you gotta same as all like all the characters as you you get their narrative as you bring them gifts right

Yeah. Persistence is key with a lot of these characters because they will, like, I think Arachne literally tells you like, eh, you know, I'll give you the outfit, but I don't want to talk. And it takes like maybe five or six runs for her to. to um to open up to you it's not even a matter of giving gifts that you just have to wait um yeah some of them are based around times like number of times that you talk to them which I did get a little bit frustrated with at first because there are some like

story moments and uh quests and things that are locked behind certain characters and it's like okay yeah i finally made it to the friend room with that person like at this run this is going to be it and then they talk to you and it doesn't advance anything and you're like damn it okay fine i'll come back again and you have to do that sometimes two three four times and then finally they're like okay fine i'll tell you it's like oh okay

Yeah, I did. I really I love discovering those and I take them every time I see them. It's like if there's a there's a friend room, I'm in there. I'm having chats with these folks and it never disappoints. It does feel like I. I've missed a few. I don't think I don't think I've come across any in the boat area. So is that that's the one you were talking about with Cersei, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And then, yeah, so I think that there's one friend in each biome, right? Yeah. I found the Echo Lady. I don't know if there's one in Upstairs 4. I think you might be right. I think that's the only area where there isn't one because that place sucks. It makes sense. Yeah, that place is unfriendly. It's a terrible place. I said what I said.

yeah like i think that you can get visited by someone that'll help you out but i don't think there's a dedicated friend room there's no room yeah yeah that's correct okay interesting yeah i i really enjoyed those like calm peaceful places in the first one so the fact that they have one sort of

sprinkled in into every biome with with this version of the game and uh it offers some of the more some of the more interesting dialogue too like i i really like all the dialogue in the in the in the friend rooms uh and learning more about those characters in the past and stuff past interactions with them but uh from a story perspective like the fact that right from the get-go i think hades one was more of like a You know, I hate my dad, and I'm...

And I'm fighting my way out of here. That's like how it starts. Like I, I, I'm not no longer going to be stuck here. And I'm, you know, it's like angsty teen a little bit, Jocelyn. I don't want to, you know, you should still play it, but you know, it's no life is strange, but. Zagreus is definitely not a fan of his father. And then I didn't play far enough, I admit. I probably do need to go back to Hades, but I got far enough to kind of discover the real story.

And then I stopped. I was like, I probably should have kept going. But Hades 2 is a little different. Right off the get-go, it's like, as you said, Kronos has taken over. All your family that you did not know because you were... You were taken right before that moment from birth and raised to defeat Kronos.

Like right from the get go, you know, like death to Kronos. That is the that is the tagline, you know, was in the trailer of the announcement. And that's what we're doing here. And it right off the bat, it's like, you know, your goal and what you're working towards. Whereas I feel like in Hades 1, it was a little more nebulous until you actually did what you were trying to do, which was, well, defeat Hades. So...

I did appreciate that. And from a story perspective, everybody's on board, at least right off the start with the down. you know, route is everybody's. Yeah. Everybody's like, everybody is death to Kronos. We're all on board. We'll, we'll agree with that. And then it gets a little weirder as you start to go upstairs. And I assume I still haven't discovered all the wrinkles of.

of chronos's plan uh and i did appreciate that you know they kept as you like i've beaten chronos twice and i think i've got the kind of the pattern down to be able to like continue that route But I did appreciate that they used his ability as a time god to be like, yeah, you killed him, but he's going to come back. And then you have to work towards that aspect of it, of trying to defeat him.

completely i assume i i've not got that far i unlocked the recipe but half the recipe is like a giant green unknown blob so yeah literally a blob of green with question marks around it like uh Who knows? Maybe it's maybe it's the ooze from this Nickelodeon slime. I have no idea. So we'll see what comes there. But I think from a story perspective, it is it is really it's a really good hook.

And I'm I'm wondering if there is like a twist. I mean, I I haven't gotten to the final area yet. I have not met the final boss for that upstairs route, but I am working my way towards it. I'm not going to say too much, but I think just based on how much I want to talk about the ending with you two, you should know that like something happens that isn't as simple as just death to Kronos.

I think that's a fairly safe thing to say. Yeah. But I'm actually curious, Hat, as someone who did play the crap out of Hades 1 and knows the story inside and out, were you like... happy sad about uh zagreus not being involved this not being a continuation of his story like was it the fact that they had a new protagonist and her whole thing with being raised to kill kronos like was that

cool for you disappointing for you did you how did you feel about how he actually ends up showing up in hades 2 like was that a cool easter egg thing for you or were you upset that he wasn't involved more um so like obviously the connectivity and the way that it was woven into the larger narrative was cool right like it's it's this felt from the very beginning when you launch hades 2 for the first time you pull it up and like if you played the first game

The character that stays with you is the control scheme. You play it, and it's like, oh, this is a Hades. My dash button's in the same place. My attack button's in the same place. It's still the same thing. And you immediately feel it's not quite the same, but it's in the world that you know. It's familiar how it plays. It's like, oh, yeah, this is a Hades. And like it's all the the the quality, the fit and finish is all it's in the same ballpark. And you can see that they iterated on it. But.

It starts you off. You just blindly start a run, right? You're expected to die very quickly. You don't know how the game works. It gives you a little bit of heads up. And like the main game is the control second four buttons, not a huge deal. But the expectation here is that. You will figure out a few rooms as you go, probably die pretty quickly, go back to camp, get your bearings, and then live your life. I played a lot of Hades 1. I played hundreds of hours.

I assumed that this was going to have some level of connection, but I didn't need it to because I wanted a new game. If I wanted the old game, I can still go play the old game. The old game is still very fun. Like it's a roguelike. It goes forever. I haven't seen all the dialogue in that game. I haven't done everything. I've done a lot of things.

Like 100% whatever achievements you got. I've done a lot of like high heat runs, whatever. But there's always more to do. So I could go play that whenever I want. Like I don't need to play. I don't need them to remake that game and sell it to me again. Like, I already bought the first one a bunch of times. But the way that this was done...

I've enjoyed it. I've had a good time. I've really enjoyed playing it. It hits that just one more run feeling again, the way that I didn't know a game would do again. I'm glad this one did it. Like I talked about with the God of War thing, I am a little bit less invested in this story just by nature of it's a more expansive cast.

you know my like my heart was with the first one i grew with it and and connect with it but this one it does feel like there's a clearer like something is happening and i'm a part of it as opposed to ryan the way you talked about the first game that's a family game

It's a game about your family, right? You're doing something because you want to do it, not because it's forced upon you. You don't have to be a little shit and break out of the house. You don't have to do that. You're doing that because your character wants to do that, and then things happen as a result of that. This is...

a thing is happening you are part of this larger story it's a different feeling i like that there's something to explore here and it also immediately felt pretty different so i'm okay with that i don't need a sequel to be a direct continuation but i like how this game circled back, and there are some connective threads, more so than I think I was originally expecting, actually, which is cool. You know, I mean, we can do the Silksong thing, too, where...

I wasn't sure how connected that game was going to be, and the way it ended up working out worked pretty well for me, but I didn't need it to. I think it's pretty similar overall.

I'm happy with the development here, and the quality is really what matters, and the quality is exactly on par with where it was the first time. Doing a different thing with the same quality is cool. I'm going to probably prefer one over the other. I don't know which it is yet. I'm probably going to lean towards the first one because of my relationship.

with that game at that time. But that doesn't mean this story is bad by any means. I'm enjoying going through it. And I want to know more. I want to know more about what happens. And I want to make sure that we can come back and talk to you about it because you were dying.

I am dying so hard. Oh my God. Okay. Well, must be some ending. Uh, I, I, um, I think since we are talking story and we can go downstairs and we can chat about that route, I think once you do eventually make your way to the final area and... we talked about those friend rooms and stumbling upon Hades, your father, and then having, having that conversation of like,

he he's kind of he's downtrodden he's been captive for what 20 he's in prison yeah he's in prison this is what everyone keeps saying like 20 some odd years these are gods and goddesses true like yeah just because she's like grown Doesn't mean it's been 20 years. They don't state it outright, do they?

They never outright say how long it's been. But I think it's important to keep in mind that we're in a world of gods and goddesses and that this has been like at some point they say there's a conversation. I can't I think it might be with a. but it also might be Icarus. I can't remember where they essentially talk about that, that that is mentioned where like, you know, it might be eons to mortals, but it's knights to gods.

But Icarus is mortal, right? Icarus, yeah, he's a shade. Yeah, he's a mortal who has been... No, Icarus is mortal. Okay. So... Yeah, no, I mean, and you're right, like you don't get this strong sense of like exactly how much time has passed, but you get it's it's enough that that people are. pretty down about it so you know when you do come across Hades and you have that initial conversation I thought like oh man this is gonna make worth

you know, doing this route over and over again and finding this room for me, at least like so, so worth it. And I did appreciate like from a story perspective, like being able to engage with that character over and over again. And then when you do eventually beat Kronos that first time and then the reveal of where you go into next.

and and you would get to engage with another character that was uh from the previous game like that was a nice surprise i'm not sure where that's gonna go in terms of like

Oh, what a twist ending. Because there's some timey-wimey stuff going on, as is to be expected. You're fighting time itself. So the fact that you're kind of using time against... time is it's such a neat it's really cool it's really cool i mean we are in spoiler mode so you mean you end up talking to zagrius from the first game but his in the past yeah past self after the events of hades one again not clear

From what I understand, he does mention that his dad doesn't like him much. Sure. So it could kind of be at any point in Hades 1, I'm assuming. Or after, probably. Or after, probably. Yeah, I don't know. It's not super clear. And also, even after you repair the family in Hades, when it's unclear that Hades likes you or anyone that much. I was going to say, yeah. That's a major differentiator.

day after day after day beating the crap out of your dad i can see how he might not like you very much even after that story that's his job it is anyway stupid boss like getting mad at you for doing what your work is like anyway i will he does but also he doesn't know her very well but yeah i mean oh once he gets to know her he'll hate her that's what you're trying to say

I mean, he'll be grumpy like Oscar the Grouch. That is his nature. I will note as a fun little tidbit in early access for this game, and I will say the game grew a lot in early access. I was planning on playing a lot more of it early, and I was like, you know what? I'm going to wait for that 1.0 polish. I'm glad I did. But in the very first version...

of the game you could not pause against chronos the pause menu would come up and then he'd be like no you don't then he would unpause the game for you you had to do the incantation so that you were allowed to pause then he has all the snarky dialogue that he has now but Even though it was funny, it was a little bit over the line, like, what if you need to pee?

sometimes that happens and so you shouldn't have to earn the ability for a basic game right but I experienced that I paused he was like no you don't I'm time I control how this goes he unpaused the game for you that was pretty funny but I'm glad they didn't ship it but I was glad I was there for it Yeah, that is a really awesome little Easter egg thing, like fourth wall breaking moment. Yeah, sounds very Eternal Darkness. The game unpausing on you on purpose. That's.

oh man now that is a gamecube level throwback i know um two people will get that you just you're one of them and then there's like probably another one in discord probably whirlwind if you made it this far so yes so

You know who else might get it this week, Ryan? I think it's the wonderful Patreon members for here at the Gamers Inn, because we've talked Hades 2 for a while, but I do want to get to the news a little bit. Also, thank you very much, both of you, for having me on. For everyone listening to this, if you haven't played Hades 2...

Give it a try. But I'm here to make a clean segue and then muddy it all up with all this conversation around it. Yes, thank you so much for being here. And I had that thought as soon as we started talking about the narrative. I was like, I should have done the Patreon stuff.

But that's okay because we're going to do it now. So thank you so much to our October patron, Brian. Thank you so much for supporting the show over at patreon.com slash thegamersin. I hope you guys have liked this deep dive into Hades 2. I have had so much fun tonight.

Then we also have our host special. It's Ryan. Ryan is October, so I'm off for a month. Thankfully, I don't even know what I'm going to do for the next one. So taking suggestions over in the Discord. Hope you guys have been enjoying all the host specials. We also have our game night, which is coming up this Friday, October 17th. How is it the 17th of October already? That is mind-blowing, but 8.30 p.m. Eastern.

uh friday october 17th this makes a lot more sense why you were messaging me about game night i was like why are you worrying about this we just did peak no it's already been another month so this is friday the 17th at 8 30 p.m eastern come join us in the discord We stream over to Discord. You guys can come in, you can hang out, you can chat, you can join. Spots are open for patrons as priority invites. So make sure that you reserve your spot on the Patreon post.

And then join us at 8.30 this coming Friday. Oh, we've also got Extra Life coming up. So our Extra Life, we've got a couple of streams by community members that are happening in October, and then our game day will be in November. You can go to tiny.cc slash TGI Extra Life. If you want to support us, obviously we get the most donations on the day, but you can donate at any time.

So go and check out twitch.tv slash Pixel Mountain Gaming. That is Travis on Friday, October 24th and Saturday, October 25th. uh travis and ben are going to do the dark pictures anthology devil in me and we need to all go and commiserate there because Oof, that's a rough game, so we'll have to see how that goes for them. I hope they have more luck than we did, Ryan. And then you guys are playing Event Ads the next night on the 25th, right?

Yeah, so we're going to we're going to have a clean slate and we're going to play a peak. The peak event ads is going to be happening on October 25th. We're going to play peak and we're going to see how high we can climb the mountain. uh the mountains i should say with uh speaking of whirlwind whirlwind crofton travis and i we're gonna we're gonna suit up and go up the mountain see how it goes i don't know and it Antics will likely happen. So stay tuned.

That was actually that was such a good game. I had a great time last game night. I tried to play it by myself and it just is not the same without a full team. So yeah, it is not meant to be played as a solo game at all. So yeah, I look forward to watching you guys play that. going to be crazy again that is twitch.tv slash pixel mountain gaming that brings us to the news this week there is a minecraft movie sequel set for july 23rd 2027 uh uh

This just isn't for me and that's okay. I'll put it that way. I know Ryan, your kids are probably super stoked. Look, Jocelyn, I don't know if you know this, but like 2027 is like the year of the video game sequels. Video game movie sequels. I mean, I know the Mario movie sequels coming out next year. We won't count that. But you've got not only a new Sonic film, but now a new Minecraft film. I knew it was going to be fucking Sonic. It's always fucking Sonic.

Look, I just any any chance I get, I'm going to throw it in there. But I mean, video games do big business. IP moving across mediums. It's doing well. It's doing well. So it's no surprise that we're getting a sequel. And I think the news, it's not really video game related, but.

The news I saw paired with the Minecraft movie sequel is it's releasing the same day as they're doing the Simpsons movie sequel and it's releasing on the same day. So like. Oh, really? You can go see that while everyone goes to see Minecraft, I guess. I don't know. I might actually go see the Simpsons movie instead of the Minecraft sequel. That actually sounds a lot better. So, but yeah, I don't know how they're going to follow up. The.

The memes that sort of came out of that first one to the point where, I mean, I know how you used to work in a theater setting. Glad you got out of it before the chicken jockey throwing popcorn all over and bringing live chickens into the theater.

I don't know if that happened in New York city, but I mean, I would hope that it didn't, but I, this stuff that I saw over the 16 years working in theater, like, I don't know if anything would have surprised me anymore. Like I dealt with messy enough theaters and whatever.

But let me tell you how they're going to measure up to the memes from the first movie, Ryan. A giant pile of free money. Because that's what Minecraft Movie 2 is. That's what they're going to do. They're going to make a bunch of free money. Like, or not free, like they're going to pay for the movie, but it's just, it's a guaranteed success right now. It literally doesn't matter. Do you, you both watch pitch meetings, right? You know, the pitch meeting series on YouTube.

nope no i know okay there's a canadian comedian who plays both the the executive and the writer for movies and he pitches like he pans back and forth he's wearing two different outfits and he pitches the movie to

himself to the other version of himself and when they did the one for the mario movie which will send you after this episode just like we're gonna play this real safe and the only thing that matters is that you remembered the thing that you remembered and that is all the minecraft movie is That you just remembered a thing that you played in a video game and now it's on the screen and then that's it. That's the whole and then money. Yeah.

Question mark, question mark, question mark, profit. So then why didn't that work for Warcraft? So, Joss, you know WoW players, right? Yes, correct. Have you known them to complain on occasion? Every once in a while. So Minecraft youths that have fun playing Minecraft.

As opposed to the pickiest audience in the gaming world this side of League of Legends and card gamers. Touche. Probably just not quite the same level of slam dunk here. You want to go for animated, low-hanging fruit, younger audience. Pure nostalgia. And the Warcraft movie's execution was not trying to go for nostalgia, it was trying to go for high fantasy. And, like, you can try that, but I don't know if it's always going to land, as we know. As we saw, yeah, unfortunately.

uh yeah so again july 23rd 2027 uh minecraft movie is coming uh the second minecraft movie is coming i should say we've already we've already had one The other thing that's coming in 2027 is the PS6 and the next Xbox console. Was anyone else surprised that they said they're making another Xbox console? Did you see my note in the show notes? Do you see what I wrote here when I read this? So it says in the show notes, and I quote myself.

Next Xbox console? Sure, Jan. That's a dated reference. I'll believe it when I see it. Okay, Jennifer Lawrence giving the thumbs up to the camera and that gif that you know. uh you can like oh yeah sure uh i i will wait for uncle phil to drop that off at walmart uh if they even carry xboxes anymore but the only news i've seen you run xboxes and again blah blah disclaimer

Used to work for Blizzard, which was a subsidiary of Microsoft when I left. They didn't renew my contract. Also, yeah, disclaimer, Joss dislikes Microsoft for obvious reasons that are justified. Anyway, whatever. all the retailers are pulling this thing and Xbox keeps talking about how they don't have a commitment to console exclusivity. Why would they dump a bunch of money into a hardware platform when they keep closing down the studios that make their first party games?

I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. But allegedly, according to whatever website this is, videogamechronicle.com, separate reports claim that there is an Xbox console aiming for 2027 release. Now, I will note... Microsoft owns Minecraft. Maybe this is a day and day drop with the Minecraft movie. Maybe Minecraft movie. Maybe you can watch the Minecraft movie only on your Xbox.

Whatever the hell they're going to call it. Minecraft movie the game. Oh my god. Oh no. Another Minecraft movie the game. 100% what's going to happen. Minecraft movie, the game. Oh, get fucked. Get fucked so hard, Microsoft. If you pre-order, you get a golden chicken jockey. I don't know. I'm just trying to think of the most out of touch possible idea. And that's what they'll do. Yep.

Outside of Xbox, did you guys, I can't remember when the news actually came out, but you did mention Walmart, how Walmart is pulling the Xbox sections of their stores. So did you guys cover that last week? Was that last week or did that happen in the in-betweens? It's kind of been, it's kind of been happening here and there as like rumors. Like I think Costco did it first. And, but I think this week was like the confirmation that it was actually happening.

And and the fact that it is just Xbox being pulled in a sense. Yeah, it's not like they're revamping their video game. and it's they're pulling xbox like they're not pulling video games they're pulling xbox which is so bizarre that then there's rumors of a new console because i mean we already knew place to err i guess we were um positing that the playstation 6 would be in 2027 like that doesn't seem like it's crazy big news those have been our

kind of guesses and rumors for six or eight months now but the just the idea of a new xbox console seems to go against everything that we've seen lately so the only thing that i can think of here that might make sense and make this report theoretically true in a misleading way is that if this is official xbox steam deck equivalent right like if this is if their next console is a handheld

I could see that. Well, the next console is a handheld that's coming in, what, December? The Xbox Ally. Is that real? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So but that's like that's an that's a thing with Asus, right? Yes, it's third party sort of partnership like branded. Yeah. i guess that's fair they're they're not making microsoft isn't making it so the question is if they see do they see the future of this space

where they will try to do the handheld form factor Steam Deck competitor instead of trying to take on Sony. And instead, go for... the nintendo-esque or steam deck-esque form factor but with full desktop games without compromise and a without compromise i'm air quoting you can't hear it but you can hear it um

But it's that is the only thing where I can see it making sense for Xbox to continue hardware development is an in-house first party handheld something. Yeah, it's it's hard to to look at this and understand like what. And we did touch on this last episode where it's hard to understand where they could go from here. And I think they do need to you do think on one hand they do need to find a way to to carve out a section of the market.

But I think Microsoft, the upper echelons of Microsoft is more interested in how can we just... capitalize on what we already do which is windows shoving ai into everything and i think that's where i worry about like and where this article that we've linked kind of goes into the rabbit holes of what the next xbox could possibly be and saying it's closer to what a PC offering would be and that it is a higher end system, you know, geared towards.

the folks that want like the windows xbox experience similar to what the rogue ally is sort of targeting that is a handheld windows xbox experience um so like maybe What 2027 brings for Xbox is what we've all been envisioning is more of a PC flexible approach of like a high end PC box and then a high end. handheld option uh and sort of targeting both kind of weirdly like two niche spots like PC gaming, while very popular, is still not as mainstream. You can't buy...

You don't buy a gaming PC in Walmart. You might get one at Best Buy for sure. You might have to order it online, but you can definitely get one at Best Buy. And I think that's going to be the difference here is they might try to go after that.

market kind of like an in-between so they're gonna be like above sony below a pc so maybe yeah not directly competing with the playstation 6 necessarily competing with the steam deck like competing with the steam deck is it like almost one-to-one with that but also valve you're not talking about a handheld though right ryan like you were talking about like another console

I think they'll do both. Like I think what what had said, I'm kind of thinking like along both lines of like they will they will split the difference. And there has been rumors that PlayStation is doing something similar with their their next. I honestly think what Sony is going to do is the rumors is that they will do a handheld PS6.

And that will probably take the place of their experiments with VR, where we got the PSVR 2 as sort of a very expensive peripheral. I think they are going to probably focus in on... capturing that handheld market like that was something that i was i was you know reading an article or listening to a podcast talking about how nintendo the reason they stuck with the switch 2 and didn't like sort of

or the theory I should say is they stuck with the switch to, instead of going with something, what they normally do, which is branch out and experiment and find a whole new area to dominate is the reason they didn't move away from it is because no one cracked that.

you know that idea for themselves like you know steam deck is again a very small percentage and one of the only successful versions of those handheld pcs no one's been able to like unseat what Nintendo is doing with this hybrid approach and I think I think the Switch 2 will probably you know be the last

Switch, whatever Nintendo does next will be different because PlayStation and Xbox are going to be like, all right, we got to we're going to try to get in on this as well and see if we can maybe find more. The more casual audience that wants the ability to play handheld. I mean, Xbox will find a way to screw it up. I mean, we didn't even mention it, but today is like. you know, Windows 10 death day, unless you have a thousand Bing points to spare. So I don't know if any of you.

I just clicked decline a bunch of times and then my computer was allowed to function like it. So it'll just be more annoying and will still mostly work the same. So it's a full Microsoft experience. But you did mention. Ryan did mention something important that Microsoft's all-in-one AI. The next one, Xbox Skynet. Blow us up. That's what's going to happen. That's the next one.

Who's going to get the blue screen first? Is it going to be the AI or is it going to be us? Who knows? I'm going to get the Xbox T9000. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah. Oh, this is so bleak. Just don't buy an Xbox. It'll be fine. I think for me, it was all for me when it comes to which boxes do I buy to put in the living room, it comes down to the exclusives and the content and the.

while microsoft has said like a lot of their stuff is is coming to other platforms um there's two things that need to happen they need to release another halo game and then depending on where they put that. And if Halo arrives on PlayStation, like a brand new Halo game is on PlayStation, that'll be like, okay. I guess we're done here. Ryan only has to buy one very expensive box in 2027. And I'm fine with that because I love saving money. Look, coupons are great.

how i feel about fable but even like my rage at microsoft is so much right now that like i wouldn't even be like i would never buy a console for fable i still don't even know if fable like fable we've seen so little of it i'm a little i'm i'm worried i'm starting to get worried yeah same yeah but i'm definitely buying a ps6 because they will have the next horizon game on the ps6 so oh yeah like i already know that that purchase is happening but Yeah, no. Microsoft just...

I literally can't imagine buying an Xbox console, and I literally can't imagine not getting a Sony console when it drops. That's just what's going to happen. I wasn't a Sony person for a while. My first PlayStation was the PS4 and got a PS5 as soon as it was medically possible because for a while it just wasn't a thing you could do.

And it's just, it's my most used gaming platform in the house by far. Like I have my Switch, I have my PlayStation, but the PlayStation is what I go to when I can. It's just, they got games and it's easy to use. And the only concern I have is how dramatic it is when I lose power. Like, calm down, PlayStation. You're fine. Yes. You'll live. But otherwise, it's just that's where the games are.

That is where the games are. If they're, they're Nintendo games and there are other games and the PlayStation has all the other games and they're cool and fun and that just belongs. But I haven't, I think I own an Xbox like a long time ago that I use just for like. party games or whatever but the exclusivity thing has just not been a thing for a long time and it doesn't strike me as reliable or necessary or worth the expense uh and i don't envision that turning around anytime soon

We'll see. Maybe they make the best in-house gaming handheld ever. That is somehow a seamless user experience. I'm doing a bit. I'm doing a bit. It's a Steam Deck 2, really, is what we're waiting for. But also, it's a Microsoft gaming console built on Windows, so you're going to have to fiddle. And the whole point of a handheld console is to play the games without fiddling.

is to not have to do all the pc stuff because like i have a pc i've done the gaming pc there's a bunch of pc stuff that you got to do you got to worry about 200 gig downloads and then you gotta you gotta log in and do the thing and make the account do the other thing and do the blah blah and do the blah blah and like I want to pick up the thing and play the game on it. And I just can't envision Microsoft getting out of their own way. I cannot imagine them doing it. That's fair. That's very fair.

All right. All right. I think I think that's it, guys. I think we're done. Hat, thank you again for being here. Thank you so much for bringing your Hades expertise. And just oh, man, you you know that the game, the team, everything inside out. So thank you so much for being here. And I look forward to talking about the ending when we can finally talk about the ending. Do you have anything you want to anywhere you want to point people to anything you want to plug?

First of all, if you're listening to this and you're not in the TGI Discord, you should probably be in there, but also I'm speaking to a captive audience. So otherwise, I mean... I'm on all social media platforms, including that one at RidiculousHot. If you want to talk about games, ping me and we'll talk about games. And I just want to say a big thanks to Ryan and Joss. Ryan's been a fun couple weeks hanging out with you.

And we'll be back for the minisode about the Hayes 2 ending. And also whenever y'all want to talk to me about games, like you just give me a ring. And Joss, I am glad that you are feeling a little better after your month-long illness. Uh, and shout outs to justice mute button for making this episode listenable to those of you at home.

Yeah, I think I only missed it one time. So that was pretty good. But yeah, thank you so much for being here. If you guys want to continue the conversation, as had mentioned in the discord, go to tiny.cc slash TGI discord. You can also visit us on the web at gamers.

in podcast.com or follow us over on blue sky you can find me jocelyn at jossplays.com and ryan is at ryan murphy.ca also be sure to check out our tgi community starter pack at tiny.cc slash tgi starter pack thanks for staying at the gamers and remember tune in next week bye everybody bye everyone bye I find it funny that you guys think that the Hades 2 ending is going to be a mini episode.