Ebru Koksal: Finding the confidence to be an authentic female leader
Obviously in the 70’s and 80’s Turkey was not necessarily the most developed and advanced country, it was almost as semi-socialist country, so we were not allowed to travel outside, the country, unless there was a health emergency, or another major reason.
I come from a lower, middle income family, and I didn’t really see much of the world, until I got to go to college, in the US. But, we obviously were pretty well brought up in the sense that education, sports, opportunity’s, I think everything was quite abundant, with the exception of girls football.
Where girls playing other sports, did you play other sports?
Yes, I did. I started out swimming, partially due to health reasons, I have had scoliosis since I was eight years old, and it was recommended by the doctors. I swam for about six or seven years, I played basketball in high school and then I realised that I really liked tam sport, and swimming, yes, it is part of team sports, but at the end of the day you’re competing individually.
In 1985, I started playing water polo, that is one of the hardest sports as well. I continued playing till after I graduated from college, I played in the US as well. It is one of the hardest sports in the world, so funny enough girls could play water polo, but they couldn’t play football.
How did your scoliosis diagnosis, at eight, impact your life as a young woman?
I mean, circling back after about 45 years and questioning, why I was so driven all the time, wanting to be successful, and really having this high achievement personality, it boiled down to those ages of seven/eight, when I thought everything was perfect. I was the perfect girl of my parents, and all of a sudden, the doctors tell me that I am not perfect, and probably going forward, I couldn’t do sports, I couldn’t have children in the future.
All of that was very heart breaking, and I felt that my parents didn’t love me anymore. That was obviously not the case, but that is in your little seven/eight-year-old mind, you make up these stories. I thought that maybe, if I was simply successful in what I did, whether it was sports, or school, or work afterwards, that people would love me.
For a very long time I mixed up love and acceptance, with success, and I only realised probably as I turned 50 that, I had this pressure always in the back of my mind. Unfortunately, scoliosis, I don’t even want to call it a sickness or illness, it is a physical disorder, that limits many people’s lives, but I always thought against it. I have been extremely active, and I think I’m one of the few cases who has such an advanced level of scoliosis. Mine is past 90 degrees by now, can’t imagine how bad it is actually, but I still ski, play football every now and then.
I decided back then, when I was eight, that I would fight against it, all my life.
Who inspired you, when you were growing up as a young woman?
I never thought of going into sports as a career. It was just turn off events in the tenth year of career, but growing up I guess my mother, even though she was a lawyer, she never practiced because she had me as soon as she passed her bar exams, she had her ambitions which she couldn’t fulfil, and kind of passed them onto me, maybe.
She would always ask me, so I would come in and say, oh I got 93 on the maths exam, and she would be like what did Iesha get, and what did Ahmed get, it was never good enough if someone else had a higher score than me. She was always behind the scene pushing in a way.
Them women to look up to, obviously there were some politicians, business leaders, that I admired growing up. For me success was more associated with titles and power, and being part of an impactful organisation, rather than money. Some people have more extrinsic motivation, some people have intrinsic motivations, I obviously had a mixture of them.
Career wise, I wanted to be an investment banker, I became an investment banker, working at one of the top wall street firms, after graduating from Brown University.
You went to the US as a relatively young person, did you travel on your own to set up over there?
First of all, it wasn’t like today. We picked schools without seeing them, I had never been too the US in my life before, and my parents couldn’t afford to take me to school. So, I went on my own, two suitcases, landed and went together with a friend who was going to same school, and my American room mate met us at the airport in Boston.
They were kind enough to put us up for the night, so I was really happy, and then we had dinner, and they said you’re going to sleep in the caravan in the garden. We had never been to states, we know nothing about it, but we are so tiered, but in the middle of the night, I woke up and woke my friend up, and I just said imagine if somebody stole this caravan tonight, and we wake up in the morning, not knowing where the hell we are. We just had a laughing fit.
It is so much against the Turkish hospitality, can you imagine somebody is coming to stay in your house, and you’re making them sleep in the garden. It was just out of the question for us. My father use to work for the British Leyland company, and at the time in the 70’s and 80’s, it was the only car service repair shop for foreign cars, and any tourists coming through Turkey with the cars, if they broke down they would come to this repair shop. Every month he would turn up and say, well this is John and Jane, their car broke down, we are expecting pieces from the UK, so they’re going to stay with us for a week. We would have these people that we don’t know, they simply showed up at my fathers’ shop, and they would come and stay with us. My parents would give their room, and their beds to them, feed them, take them around, so this is what we grew up with, the kind of hospitality, and then having to sleep in the garden, oh my god, this is going to be a nightmare in the US.
How was university?
It was the best time in my life, and for many, many reasons obviously. We are brought up here quite secluded, and protected by our parents, and to be on own was really different of course. I wasn’t always full financial aid; I didn’t have pocket money.
My mother use to knit sweaters, and send them to me, one a week, or one every other week, in the mail, and she would put in a ten-dollar bill in between. I would go out and take that sweater, and try and sell it to somebody, so I could make some money, I washed dishes, I babysat, I mean these things were unheard of in Turkey. It made me, even at the age of 18, realise that unless you worked hard, nothing was going to happen.
The interesting thing is, there is such a mixture of cultures, and backgrounds in university. Someone like me, with some of the richest families children, from Europe or the US, some very intellectual ones, some very sporty ones, and probably more than half of the college experience and education was who you met, what you learnt from them, and how you kept up.
What did you study?
Economics and international relations. I was happy with what I studied; it was what I wanted. The only thing is I probably would’ve studied phycology along with it, because for the next 30 years, it took a lot of my time, to figure out why I was doing certain things, a certain way and why everybody was thinking, doing acting, in that way.
I think phycology is such an important building block of everything that is happening in our private lives, our work live, in what drives us, in what motivates us, what inspires us, what inhibits us, so definitely if I were to go back, I would add phycology.
You mentioned there you went on to work in investment banking in New York, how long were you there for?
Two years, and again an amazing learning experience. In the 90’s investment banking was quite strict in the way you dressed, the way your worked, in the hours you had to spend at work, it was at least 130, 140, hours a week. We would work till three in the morning, go home take shower, come back at six or seven.
It was extremely competitive, but also a great learning environment and I got to work in some of the biggest deals in the US, at the time, a $2 billion public offering for general motors, and many of the fortune 500 companies were clients of the group I worked in, so it was an amazing learning experience.
What brought you back to Turkey?
Love. I fell in love with a guy, who was living in Turkey, we had a long-distance relationship for about a year, and then when he proposed, I dropped everything, came back, and luckily, we are still married after 26 years, so not a made decision after all.
How did your relationship with Galatasaray begin?
Well, after moving back to Turkey, I continued in investment banking, and in 99, I joined a private equity fund in Turkey, an American fund, who had invested in Varsco de Gama in Brazil, and they were looking at some football assets in Turkey as well.
The first day on the job, they sent me to a meeting with Galatasaray, because the president of the club at the time, he was my former mergers and acquisitions client from city bank. I had sold his company to allied signal, a couple of years before.
What I didn’t realise, was just as I started this new job, I was actually pregnant, but I didn’t know at the time. I had just delivered my first child 6 months before, so my kids are one and a half years apart. With the first one, I had to go through treatment for two years, it was a nightmare. Every month having to have these shots, and the disappointments, and everything. So, when I realised that I was pregnant, in the first month of starting that new job, I was really scared at first.
I couldn’t tell my boss for a while, then I went up to him and explained look you know, I’m sorry, I didn’t do this on purpose, and I hope you will understand. Really weird enough, the partnership agreement with Galletas and I was signed the day my daughter was born, and three weeks later my boss called me to his office, I thought it was one of those catching up days, and he was this Italian guy, and to my surprise he said well you have two very young children, and you can’t keep up with the pace of the private equity fund, we work very long hours, the job is very demanding, and we are going to terminate your contract.
I said wow, okay, great. I’m going to walk out of here, higher a lawyer and sue you. So, that is what I was planning to do, and then the president of the club, he called me, and he said I heard what happened, I know you’re very angry, and I know that you’re a great investment banker, but would you consider working with us as an interim here for six months. I thought about it, my father use to play basketball for Galatasaray, I use to go with my father to the basketball games, even after he retired, he even took me too football matches, once or twice, because the stadium environments were not good for little girls, you know.
I said why not, I’ll park myself there for six months, and then I’ll look for another banking job. Three months later, the president who recruited me, he said he’s resigning and going for early elections, the next one came in, and he said can you stay for another three months. One thing lead to another, I was there for 15 years, I worked with six different presidents, ten different boards, became CEO of the whole club, and then joined the board and became the first women to be elected to European Club Association Board, and I was the only woman until last year. I am now very happy to know that Amra Peternel, she is from Red Star Belgrade, she is actually the second woman to be ever elected, nine years after me. So in between there was nobody else, unfortunately.
Where there many women working at the club within that time, or within football turkey at all?
No, not at all. Obviously, there were women in some of the back office roles, or finance, or legal departments, some in marketing departments, and things like that, but no c-suite women, and certainly no CEO, and there has not been a female CEO in Turkey, let alone much of the rest of the world, if you think about it.
Can you talk me through that journey to becoming the first female CEO representative on the European Club Association?
Well, it was an interesting experience because first of all the big hurdle that I have seen over the years, is women feeling confident enough to run for an office like that. A lot of the time, they see an opportunity, they don’t think they tick all the boxes, and they don’t want the embarrassment or the failure of not winning, so they don’t go for such roles.
When this opportunity came up, I had just finished the new stadium for Galatasaray, and we were just about to open it. It was a very, very successful period for the club, in terms of its operations as well, and I went to the president and I said listen, I want to run for this role.
Normally, I would’ve expected him to probably say well it is a man’s role, or let x, y, z run for it, why are you running. Instead, he looked at me and he said I can’t think of a better person to represent Turkey and Galatasaray, and women, and he said go for it.
That’s the first hurdle. Then obviously, you need to change people’s minds, because the voters look at you, and say oh your so brave, great, we are very proud that you are trying something like this, but you will never win the election. So, I said fine you know if I don’t win, I don’t win.
Who was voting, Ebru?
27 clubs, from the second division.
Basically, all the clubs that are from sort of UEFA coefficient ranking, from sort of nine to 15, nine countries, and three or four clubs, from each country.
I called up everybody, I explained my background, and I explained what I thought I could do for European football, and especially for the middle section, which is suffering. You know, they want to be up in the first division, they are not because their revenues will never get to that level, but they are still very competitive, so they had a lot of expectations as well. To make a long story short, on the day of the elections, to everybody’s surprise I got the highest votes. They all looked at each other, and were like wow she made it.
Obviously, there are several hurdles, but the first one is having the confidence to put your hand up, and say I will try it. If that doesn’t happen, the next steps wont come anyways, and if you don’t get on thar field, you’ll never know whether you will win, or loose, and chance are obviously, yes, you will fail, you will loose as well, but if you are not in the field, you wont know.
What was the reaction like to you?
Well, interestingly enough I think once I made it, everyone was extremely supportive, and open, and immediately I was put on some important committees, and especially because I had this very strong financial background, and that expertise was quite important on the board as well.
I was part of some task forces, that were looking at the distribution of revenues, between the Champions League, and at the time it was UEFA Cup, not the Europa League. Immediately, I found myself accepted in the world structures.
Interestingly, the real acceptance I think came when I started playing football with them, because every year at the general assembly, they usually have a football match, they break into four teams. For two years it was only guys playing, myself and the senior representative from Belgium, Mr Verschueren, he was 80 years old. The two of us were watching most of the time, and then I finally said, I want to play. Everyone looked at me, and said are you out of your mind, Edwin Van der Sar is playing, Emilio Burtagueno, is playing, are you really going to get on the field and play with them? I said why not.
Obviously, I can’t do much other than run back and forth, but so be it, and I have some great picture of that, four teams of sort of 120 people, on the field, altogether and you look for wildo in the picture and there she is right in the middle.
That is really when I felt that, by doing the unexpected, I became more part of the inner circle. What was expected of me, was to stay outside, not join, not play, and unfortunately, usually, men don’t think that we might want to play.
The whole arguments these days about diversity, inclusion, I think if you don’t let the diverse person be included, listen to them, and let them be heard, then there is no point.
Do you have any advice for women, who are needing network, when it is quite a male environment?
I think, one of the most important skills in football is networking, and not only in football but any industry and role, and having targeted approach to it. For me, if I’m going to an event, I always look who’s coming, who could be there, if there are people that I want to meet, or I’m trying to meet, I try to see who else knows them, who can introduce me, how can I catch a moment with them.
If I do, what am I going to say, so that elevator pitch, that few minute elevator pitch. We talk about it a lot on our leadership course, because by chance you get seated at the same table as someone you’ve been dying to talk to, and you are so scared, and so shy and so unprepared that you can’t blurt out what you want to say.
So, it’s all about being prepared, and again two other important things, following up and not putting aside people if they don’t yet have a big title. You never know, what I’m going to become tomorrow, or who you might be tomorrow, which club you might work for, or which business you might start. So, some of my contacts from 15, 20 years ago, I still stay in touch with, and many of them have become either CEO’s or board members, at some of the important clubs, and I have never asked from anything from any of them, celebrated their successes, and also kept in touch. There will be a day, when I can also ask something from them.
Networking is extremely important, and yes it is intimidating sometimes to walk into a room where six men are talking, but we are seeing also interestingly things reversed as well at our Women in Football events, sometime there are 30 women and three men, and you would see those three men in the corner talking to each other, like they wouldn’t walk up to a group of women, to go in and talk and mingle, as well. I think except for a few in the room, everybody is nervous about networking, but being prepared helps.
In 2011 you became the first female general sectary of the Turkish football association, what did that role involve?
It was a difficult period in Turkish football, there were match faxing allegations and investigations for nine clubs in the Super League, and I hesitated a lot when the offer came in. On one hand, it was a great honour to lead all of Turkish football, I think there was obviously that high achieving personality side of my mind, I found it very attractive and interesting, but then on the other hand I was some what worried, because already by then for 11 years I was working for Galatasaray, and it wasn’t a club that was under investigation. So, I knew something could wrong, and some misunderstandings could happen.
I came in initially, only do a major restructuring, there were about 600 people working in the Turkish FA, and probably one third too many. So, we worked with Accenture for a restructuring plan, that would also involve a divesting of the league eventually, in three to four years, into a separate entity like the Premier League. But, the biggest problem in Turkey is one of consistency and long-term use, and planning, so the president, who once again recruited me after four months, resigned.
The new one that came in, we didn’t have the same kind of working principle’s, so months, five days, I was out of my dream job, my job as Galatasaray CEO was taken, I couldn’t go back there as CEO either. So, it was probably one of the most difficult time in my life, and I questioned a lot the decision I had made, what would have happened if I has stayed and not gone, but I think it doesn’t do any good to keep questioning past decisions, because what’s done is done. The best is to not look behind, and try to move on, and find new things to do.
That summer, 2012, I was asked by FIFA to join their consultant roster, and I started working with the development department initially for the men’s football side, but then in 2014 there was a great project starting on the womens football side, with administration courses that would be taught all over the world. For either women, who are working on the men sides or the womens side, or men working on womens football. the idea was to upskill women in football, and also to get better opportunities for womens football.
With that project I went around to close to 30 countries to do workshops, courses, help on strategic plans, and that gave me a good understanding of what was going on in the world, but also to see that your problems are not specific to you or your country. Women in most parts of the world in football were not treated well, discriminated, working in difficult conditions, having to deal with societal prejudices as well, and that is how this leadership course that we run today for Women in Football was also born.
What are the main areas of that course now?
Well the way about was actually, in 2014, I went to an authentic leadership development programme at Harvard University, and it was a lot about self-discovery, self-awareness, understanding your strengths and weaknesses, blinds spots, how to improve yourself, self-improvement and how to improve yourself for bigger leadership positions and leadership challenges.
Until then I hadn’t realised many things, for of all. One, I was always well educated, hard-working, expert in several areas, but I had blind sports, and there was nobody around me that I could trust, who would tell me the truth. Who would look me in the eye, and say look Ebru, these are the areas you need to improve, because unfortunately structures in football, don’t have the governance, or the HR support. You’re just on your own, and trying to survive.
Up till then I hadn’t even realised that what I was doing as a woman was so unique, so rare, so unusual. I was just a good top-level executive; I didn’t think I was special because I was a woman. Then I started thinking, oh my god, I have been subject to so much discrimination, and sexism, and difficulties, and I didn’t complain about it at all, because I was just happy to be there, to be advancing, to be part of this really dynamic environment.
I love football, I love working in football. it was just a magical time, and period and I always thought every time I had a difficult period, it was my fault, and not necessarily the systemic shortcomings, let’s say.
That course in 2014 made me realise, oh my god, if I had worked for an organisation, that would’ve helped me to improve my leadership skills, and send me to a course or some training back in 2008/9, when I was approaching 19/29 years in my career. That is a very important turning point usually, because you start managing bigger, and bigger groups, and budgets, I mean the budgets were like $200 million, I had about 500 people reporting to me, and worse is obviously boards of 15 men coming from all walks of life, and you had weekly board meetings, and you standing up and trying to be heard, and explaining we can’t spend money, we are over budget, you are being over ruled.
It is a very difficult environment, but that’s when I realised, I need to help other women, because if there was someone there to help me through this process, pointing out my blind spots, and teaching me how to fail better. It is not realistic to think that nobody fails, they just don’t talk about it.
If you don’t normalise failing, then it’s such a disappoint for yourself. You’re embarrassed, ashamed, you become even more aggressive, even more ambitious.
In 2014, I said, oh I need to go out and tell my story, but also teach other women to be resilient, to better understand their strengths and weaknesses, to work on their soft skills. So, that is how the course was born.
Initially, it was more about the self-discovery part, as well as some skills such as decision making, negotiating, networking, project management and time management. Then over time, especially when we started teaching it with Women in Football, we also added modules for confidence and public speaking, so now it has turned into a four-day programme. We are also teaching them financial literacy, managing budgets, understanding a bit about a clubs’ finances, and really whatever their role is, preparing them for their next step in their career.
A lot of the time leadership is over glorified, people think oh I have to be a CEO, in order to be a leader. No, you could be a head of department of three people, you are a leader of that department. It is just feeling comfortable with yourself, with your skills, and enjoying what you’re doing. That will help you to make a difference.
You have had huge success, at Galatasaray, and throughout your career as a female leader, do you feel you were different as a female leader, to the men that were around you at the time?
First of all, I think that motherly instinct always kicks in. It wasn’t for me about just going to work, and getting payed, and doing a good job. I was truly passionate about what I was doing for the club, to make it bigger, and better, and have better governance, and better use development, better recognition outside of the country.
What I see from many of my female colleagues, and counterparts, is the women really look for that purpose in what they do, and that really makes them align their strongest capabilities with their strongest motivations. If they are able to tie that with a purpose, then my god you can’t hold them back, they will go wherever they want to go.
This course also is helping people realise, if you’re lacking certain capabilities, don’t think that your capabilities are limited. Many of the skills can be learnt. If you’re not motivated with what you’re doing, think about what motivates you.
Don’t wait for a tap on the shoulder, because it might never come. Certain people, your bosses, might not think that you would be interested in an overseas job, or a new position, so have the courage to volunteer yourself for that next step. Prepare for it as well.
Going back to that inclusion, and connection part at the beginning of our talk, the course also provides people with the understanding that they’re not alone. I mean a lot of the time, you can’t say out loud what your problems are, either because the environment at work is not right, or you don’t have anyone to share with at home, or whatever, but when you start talking and realising that whether you are working for a governing body, or a small club, or a community club, or in the media sector, all of us are having very similar problems. Finding solutions together is always much easier, than trying to cope with it yourself.
Women in Football has been very good at providing that connection, and being the connector.
Are you happy with the rate of change that we are seeing in womens football now?
Especially if you look at the last decade, the growth in womens football has been tremendous. People are very impatient, and already they are saying why should we invest more into womens football, there isn’t enough spectators, there isn’t enough viewership, there isn’t enough sponsors, the infrastructure isn’t there, but go back to 1992 when the Premier League was set up.
It took 18 years for the Premier League to have international viewership, international investment. It is a long period to turn things around, and make it as glamorous as the Premier league. It just takes time.
Today, if an investor has a million dollars let’s say, and if he or she is thinking of going into a textile mill, or buying real estate, whichever investment it is, it never produces a return on investment in year one. You have to be patient, invest, lose money for a few years in necessary, and the eco system needs to grow up as a whole all together. So, as fans, better broadcasting opportunities, to players on professional contracts, not having to work, two or three jobs in order to make their living, better facilities for training, and stadiums, it is a big eco system. Now is the best time to go back to the drawing board during this crisis, and to think about who has football left behind over the years?
The growth has been tremendous. Look at UEFA’s report, it talks about men’s football, 21 billion of revenues generated in Europe in the 2017/18 season, Women’s football we don’t even know, probably not even 1% of revenues, but if you look at the world cup viewership of men’s world cup, vs the womens world cup, only one fifth of men’s viewership, with womens viewership, so the gap is not that big.
The prize money, is seven times left, sponsorship is probably 0.001%. it is a matter of time, before investors and brands and sponsors realise that youth football, womens football, grass roots football. This is what the essence of football was before it became so commercial and such a big global business.
I sincerely hope that a portion of the vast revenue generated globally from football, is invested and re-invested into football for a good side. There is not only the social side of it, there is also commercial good coming out of all the other parts of football.
I think a female leader, would probably understand and embrace this much better. I think that now is a great time when unfortunately, most people would probably lose their jobs, but there is an amazing group of very talented, over looked women, who are in the football industry, I would love to hear the governing bodies or the clubs to say next year that the only hiring they will do, will be of diverse candidates.
Can you see a time when we will have that parity in terms of pay, proportional wages, and prize money?
Going back to my investment pieces, I think there is a big role for the sponsors to play. Prize money, the salary’s, who are they paid by? Broadcasters and sponsors. Their only concern up till now, has been whether their receiving awareness, exposure, and whatever their KPI was.
But, I am certain that none of their KPI’s were related to governance, diversity, equality, or other measures. I think hopefully, like they did in the US equal pay case, some of the sponsors spoke out, and asked the US Soccer Federation to withdraw their previously put out arguments that were degrading for women. Going forward, I sincerely hope that sponsors, as well as fans, really hold clubs, governing bodies and leagues accountable for their distribution of revenues, salaries, and prize money.
Yes, for the moment the womens football side might not be generating as much revenue, but that is partly because it was never put out there as a separate valuable product. It was always put in a package, bundled, as an unwanted right. So, you’re buying the men’s cup? well you just get the womens rights along with it.
For those big brands sometimes, their main concern was to implement and activate the rights they had on the men’s tournament side, but maybe there are other buyers for the womens side. Other brands who really value these different valuable positions of the womens game, the family aspect, the health aspect, more of a grass roots approach, and it gives them a blank white page, to start and put their brand out there with the right kind of messaging. It allows some smaller brands to come in as well, who couldn’t afford the men’s sponsorship for example.
In terms of womens football, what would generate more growth and funds in the future, is it about linking the womens team to the men’s commercial side, or to un-couple?
I think un-coupling for sure, but I also think there are some regulatory and licencing steps that can be taken. Again, that same UEFA report says that only 36% of the top flight clubs in Europe have a womens team. Only 36%. Imagine that you make it a club licencing requirement to have a womens team, or link up with a womens team. Like, Real Madrid did, they were one of the late comes into the game, and they ended up buying a stand alone womens time, and this is the case in CONMEBOL.
CONMEBOL makes it a prerequisite that if you don’t have a womens team, or if you don’t have an alliance with a womens team, you can’t participate In the Copa Libertadores, or Coper America, so that is a very, very important hook. Again, the budgets are very, very small, it wouldn’t be a big burden on European clubs who are participating in the Europa League or the Champions League, and that would be a big jump start.
In the same way, even though, I am not a big believer in quotas, because that could end up in tokenism as well, but quotas always help jump start the process, the same thing could be for mandatory womens seats for member associations, clubs, and that can really speed up the whole process of transformation.
What advice would you give to women in sport who are progressing in their careers now?
First of all, definitely continue investing in yourself, and learning. It is a never-ending process, and the more you discover about what you don’t know, the stronger you will get, because that will give you the confidence to be able to try new things.
A lot of the time it is very difficult to recognised, to be heard, or to speak up, but if you had that one angle of expertise, whether it is finance or legal, or marketing, or something else, then there will always be room for you at that decision making table.
Whatever inhibits you, whatever crushes your confidence, try to work on it, especially if you express out loud your inner voices, you start realising how silly and stupid they are. Having mentors and sponsors to talk to, coaches to talk to, is extremely helpful. No one can go up that ladder on their own, and having the support system is extremely important.