Casey Stoney: On embracing mistakes & the desire to keep learning

Casey Stoney: On embracing mistakes & the desire to keep learning

I was keen to know where Casey’s passion for football began… 

I grew up in a cul-de-sac, full of boys, only two girls and I always had a love for football. I was never really into dolls and things like that I was always out playing, active, climbing trees, going to places I shouldn’t have been going probably at my age, but yeah we use to just put jumpers down for goals and play, I always has a natural ability at it. My mum said even when I was kind of three in the garden, she had people round and they were like oh she is actually really good with the football. 

So, I think football found me, more than I found it, and I’ve always loved it. 

And, I have heard you talk in the past about growing up, and perhaps not having money for new boots and kit and so on, did that ever put you off or think that wasn’t for you? 

No, I don’t think my parents would let me, because they are very much about what you can do, rather than what you have got to do it. 

So, yeah it was a struggle at time because you had to pay to play, and even £3 on a training night, £5 on a match day, and paying for your kit was a real push for us. We didn’t have a lot of money, even when we moved from Essex to Morden, we had to stop swimming because my mum couldn’t afford for both of us to swim, me and my brother, so it was one could go, but both can’t go, so neither of us went. 

I was lucky that football was a little bit cheaper, a lot of managers were a little bit more understanding and sometimes let you off with not paying ever now and again, so I think we found ways round it, and also my mum worked awfully hard to make sure we had the opportunities, so that we could do things. 

Who were your sporting hero’s, your football hero’s, growing up? I have heard you mention Ian Wright in the past? 

I have yeah. There weren’t any female ones if I’m really honest, because they weren’t on the TV, or in the paper, or weren’t visible at all, I didn’t really know women’s football existed at that level. So, I loved Arsenal when I was really young, and I loved Ian Wright because he has just always played with a smile, and with an enthusiasm and energy that just made me want to play the game. 

And, you have said that people, like your mum knew when you were three that you were a great player, but when do you think people really saw your talent at that higher level?

Erm, it is difficult because I never really believed in myself to be honest throughout my career, it took me to actually win international player of the year for me to realise I was actually good enough to play for England. 

Obviously when I was playing at the little league, and I got spotted for Chelsea and the manger there knew that I had a talent, and put me in the first team within the first couple of games of the season, and that was it. I’m still in contact with him now actually, he was a great man, and then obviously when I started playing at England, and breaking in, that was when people realised. Was I ever the most talented? I wasn’t, I definitely wasn’t, but I was certainly one of the most hard working, and that is what got me by. 

And, that is such a fantastic message isn’t it for girls, and boys not playing sport, that it isn’t necessarily all about innate skill?

No, it isn’t, I obviously had natural talent, and a bit of it because I could play and I could play quite well, but for me to be able to play at the top, top level, I had to work very hard, very, very hard, because I wasn’t as good as everybody else. I was still a talented player, but the reason I was a centre half, not a midfielder or a forward, but I honed my skills, in terms of being the most physically fit I could be, watching as many games as I can, learning the game, reading the game. 

I was never blessed with pace, so I had to make sure that I had the ability to read the game, and pre-empt things quicker than every other player on the pitch, and just make myself a player that mangers could rely on. 

We hear a lot of teenage girls dropping out, that kind of key age, was that ever an option for you, or were you always committed to playing? 

No, I considered quitting a few times if I’m honest. When I was about 11, first time I got banned from all football, because it was the mixed sport rules, and I thought about walking away then, but I think I’m too stubborn. 

Then throughout my teenage years when I was actually bullied for playing football, because it was not really the thing to do for a girl. Especially if you’re good against the boys. 

Was that boys and girls bullying, or calling it out, or mainly the boys? 

Mainly the boys to be honest, but then they picked me in their team, so it was a bit confusing really. I always say, I always tell a story when I go round to schools, and I’m like these are the same bullies that now what to come up and ask for my autograph, so it has gone full circle. 

I would go home and cry a lot of the time, and speak to my mum, mum was very much like don’t let them win, don’t let them win, because if you quit, if you walk away, they win. 

So, yeah I think it is so hard as a girl to play sport, because there are so many barriers, I played in a boys team, I had to go ready because there were not changing room facilities, leave muddy because there were no changing facilities, you get teased by parents.

There are so many reasons to quit, rather than to keep the game up, and I think obviously PE in schools isn’t good enough, so it doesn’t give the girls the physical literacy and confidence, so when you start becoming self-aware at 12, 13, 14, you get body image issues, and self-image issues, and you don’t feel confident, of course it is easier to step away.

Do you feel that has changed now, from when you were growing up? You are going into schools, and seeing and talking to young people... 

No. If anything, it is probably getting worse because of the pressures of social media, and the pressures that media put on young girls to look a certain way, and be a certain way, and also the government doesn’t invest in sport, especially in schools. 

It is very much about maths, English, science, and I wasn’t a very bright person, I got by in school, I wasn’t very academic, and if they would have talked to me and said do an essay about England in the world cup, or lets do maths on percentages of possession, and shots, I would have been way more engaged, I knew sport was a tool for good for me in that, but I think they put such an emphasis on the academic students, and not so much on the practical students. 

I think everyone learns in different ways, but unfortunately in this country we have a bit of a one shoe fits all. So, I don’t see a huge amount of change in that, I wish it would change more, I think we have an awful lot to do in primary schools because it is not the teachers fault, I think they get half a days training, it is not good enough. 

I wouldn’t want to do half a day’s training in maths, and then go and do a maths lesson, because I wouldn’t be good enough. So, I think we have a responsibility really as a government to invest more in sport and young people, because I’m not a politician, I’m certainly not a rocket scientist, but if we have a healthier nation, surely it brings down the NHS costs, our mental health will be better, our physical health will be better, and we will be a healthier nation. So, you know I think there is lots that can be done, that isn’t being done. 

Excellent, and it almost feels as if you went from playing in the street, and playing as the only girl in a boys’ team, to playing in a senior womens’ team at the age of 12. So, how did that feel when everyone else was so much older than you to come into a team in that way?

I think obviously the key thing was when I went from the little league into Chelsea, they didn’t have any junior teams, they had one senior team and a reserves team. So, they were both senior teams. 

You weren’t actually legally allowed to play senior football until you were 14, so luckily I was tall and we use to change my date of birth on the registration forms, but it was daunting, because I think I could always cope, and I could handle myself, and I would try and see the positives, like yes, I am playing with adults, but it means I can get a lift. So, I didn’t have to rely on anybody to get me there, mum was working all the time, and dad wasn’t at home at the point, so for me I always saw the positives, and also I was around more mature people which was a good thing, and a bad thing at times, players that were better, so I was learning, I was challenging, and they were physically better so I had to think quicker again. 

So, I actually think it probably did me a favour, petrified the first time I turned up, not going to lie, but once you get a ball at your feet, you forget everything else. 

And, how old were you when got your first cap? 

My first senior cap, I was 17, so it was quite young. 

Can you remember how your felt? 

I had Under 16, and Under 18 caps, well I only had one Under 16 cap and then they pushed me straight into the Under 18’s, and then Hope moved me into the seniors. It was an incredible experience, because it wasn’t a normal first cap, because we had actually been invited over to France to play an exhibition game before the FIFA All Stars men’s game, so I’m sat on the bench just having a lovely time, just happy to be there, and she turns and she is like warm up, and my stomach nearly fell out I’m not going to lie. 

By the time I had got on, there were 45,000 people in the stand, so obviously wasn’t a norm and whilst I’m playing France had a corner, and I turn round to look behind me, and Zinedine Zidane, and Emmanuel Petit, they are all sat down watching the game behind, and it was a really surreal moment, but it was one I kind of think really lit my fire to make me want to do it more. 

So, they were there to watch you on your first cap! Then in 2005 the Euro’s came round and you didn’t get to play, you were on the bench a bit for that, how did that effect you in terms of your thoughts on the game moving forward? 

Well I think leading into that tournament, Faye White had a few injuries, and I had played pretty much every game leading up to it, because we had quite a lot of friendlies because obviously, we didn’t have to qualify because we were the home nation. 

So, I had played quite a lot, so the open game happened and I wasn’t in the team, obviously bitterly disappointed, didn’t get on, then by the third game we had been knocked out and there were only two of us that hadn’t played a single minute, and I remember that was probably the closest I had ever been to walking away, because I just thought I am doing all of this, and what am I doing it for? 

I’m making all these sacrifices, we are still not getting paid at that time, it is still a hobby, I’m missing all these things, weddings, christenings, friends going out, weeks away, I’m having to take un-paid leave from my job because we didn’t get time off to do it. So, I just thought why am I doing all this? and I had a long hard think after it because it was the summer obviously, so I had a little bit of a break, and I’m not a quitter, and I love trying to prove people wrong, but also more so trying to prove it to myself that I can do it. 

So, I made a real conscious effort to try and change what I was doing, and thought do you know what if I’m not maybe as talented as everyone else, maybe I’m not as skilful as everyone else, I have got to find a different way. So, what I did is I made myself one of the fittest players in the team. I trained every single day, luckily around that time I was working at the David Beckham Academy, got a job there, so I had access to two full size pitches, I use to get up at 5, be in work for 6, I’d train from 6 till 8, then I would do a full day’s work, then I would finish work and I would go and train, we only trained two nights a week at Chelsea then. I would drive round the motorway, train for Chelsea, and I was first on the pitch, last to leave. 

Christmas morning, I’m going out for a run, and everyone else thinks I’m nuts, and I know what it is going to take to get me there. Do you know what I thought to myself, if I give everything and I try, I can’t look back and blame anyone else because I have done everything, I didn’t want to look at myself and think if I only I had done more. 

So, yeah I think I started really angry at Hope, and the staff for not giving me the opportunity, and then I thought do you know what actually there is only one person that can change it, and that is me, and I have lived my life like that ever since. You know, just looking over your shoulder, because when you are a player you think someone else is going to take your shirt, when you’re a manager someone wants your job, so you have to strive to be better every single day, no matter whether you are a 16-year-old starting out, or whether you are 34, and you are towards the end of your career, you are always striving to be better. 

Jumping on from there, you made captain in 2012, and how did that feel to lead your country? 

Do you know what I think it was one of my probably proudest moments ever, not just because I had been made captain, but it was the same manager that in 2005 hadn’t trusted me to play a single minute, so to then give me the captaincy I think she said you have earnt it, and she obviously valued the amount of hard work that I had put in, and she also said to me you have got a thick enough skin, I learnt very quickly what that meant! 

Do you know what captaincy is an amazing job, but it is amazingly difficult as well, because you have got 22 other women you have got to try and lead and help, all have come from  different background, are having different experiences, some are playing, some aren’t playing, frustrations come with that, but the minute you step out on that pitch and you are able to walk your country out I don’t think there is anything prouder than being able to do that. 

What kind of a captain were you?

I leant very quickly what captain I didn’t want to be, because I was made captain very early at Charlton when I was 20, and I just thought I had to ball and shout at everyone, and you quickly learn that is not the way. 

I was a captain that tried to find solutions, tried to get to know people, also I was a captain that had been on both sides. In 2005 I hadn’t played a single minute, so I understood the frustrations, I understood the feelings, I wanted to know how they were, and I wanted to be the captain that could support and help, try and make sure I was the link between the manager and the players, but always make sure the players knew my door was open no matter what.

My roommate hated me for it, because players would come and talk to me, and come and ask advice, and I was never a captain that would flower everything up, if you came to me for advice, I was going to be really honest with you, I’m going to tell you maybe what you don’t want to hear, but what you need to hear, and then I’m going to support you at the other side. 

And as a manager, you coach now, you’re looking for your captains, you have obviously learnt a lot form your own experience but do you know when you’re looking across at teams, is it quite clear who is captain material?

I think it becoming ever more difficult if I’m honest, because I don’t think we generationally we produce leaders. We don’t give young people responsibility, we are in an era where everybody gets a medal for participating, no one wants to loose or win or be told anything, we don’t empower young people, we want fast results for everything because our phones tell us we can get results really quickly, we don’t necessarily have to work really hard for everything anymore. 

So, it is becoming more difficult to find leaders, but I also think leaders lead in different ways, I wouldn’t want anyone to mirror me, because that doesn’t work for them, because then they are not being authentic. I think leadership is to them is always leading by example, I think if you’re a leader you have to set the standards, you have to lead the way on and off the pitch, but I also think as a captain, what I encourage my captains to do is delegate, because otherwise you just get swamped. Everybody comes to you, and then your performances on the pitch, you have still got to play, so I’m like yeah be the best version of you on the pitch and if that means you have got to delegate and you have got to get a team around you, to help you, that’s great. 

I have a leadership team at Man United which has been voted for by the players, not by me, I don’t pick it, it needs to be the people the players trust, and there is five of them, so the captain has support, every players hopefully has someone they feel like they can feed into if they don’t want to feed into me, and we have a two way stream of feedback, because what I don’t know, I don’t know, and I have only got a job because of them, so I need to know what they need, I need to know what things maybe they are struggling with, what they enjoy, what they don’t like, what’s happening in the schedule, is there things they want to implement, because it is their environment. 

Do you think you could have ever considered a career outside football, post football? I think you talked about being a physio at some point?

I went to college when I was 16, I was doing my A levels because I wanted to be a physio at that time, obviously we weren’t professional, there was no money in the game, so I had to have a job. So, I went college, and I have got to be honest like I said, I wasn’t that academic, I really struggled with biology, and I was going away with England all the time, and I just fell behind. 

Physio is really hard! 

It is really hard, yeah so, I quit, and I have never quit anything, and it is one of the things I always say to players, I regret quitting, I do, but as soon as I quit I went straight on my coaching badges.

I knew there was never going to be anything else for me, when I was getting older and retirement was starting to creep up, I was absolutely petrified because I didn’t know what I was going to do. I’m no good at anything other than football, and without football I don’t actually know what I would do, I always worked, I have worked in McDonalds, I have worked in Wimpy when I was younger, I have worked in betting offices, I have coached my entire career, I have coached pretty much fulltime since the age of 21. 

So, I’m not new to it, I have been a head coach at Chelsea Academy, when I was there, I was driving a mini bus, washing the kits, sorting accommodation, sorting the education programme, and that has been great grounding for me. 

If I’m honest, I wouldn’t know what I would do without football, I have been an athlete mentor for the Youth Sport Trust, loved that, loved going round talking to young people, and speaking about aspirations and trying to have an impact, because I don’t think they have enough of that now. I think young people think your trajectory to success just goes like that, it doesn’t, there are so many bumps along the way, and it is actually bumps that make you. 

So, yeah, I don’t know what I would do, maybe there is not enough work in punditry and stuff, but that is something I had done in the past, and loved, but football has been my life, so I would love to stay in it. 

And, when you were coaching at that kind of time, did you see other female coaches that inspired you? Why did your love for coaching develop? 

I think when I did my level two when I was 16, I loved learning about the game, I’m 37, obviously  I’m still new to this job, I don’t pretend that I’m perfect, I’m not, I’m still learning every day, but I love learning. I love soaking as much up as I can, and trying new things, and making sure that I’m better for my players because I want to be the best coach that I could possibly be, and obviously when I started playing for England Hope was manager of the entire programme, she was the Under 16’s, Under 18’s, Senior team, I think she did an awful lot for the women’s game that she probably doesn’t get enough credit for. 

So, you know she was a real strong role model in that, and then she brought through other female coaches and I saw them coaching, and I just though yeah okay, and I had a lot of great male role models too, really, really good male role models in the game that just loved the game, and most of the male role models did it for nothing, just because they loved football. 

And do you feel that you coach female player differently to the male players that you have coached in the past? 

No, I don’t, my players will definitely tell you that I don’t. I don’t adapt the way I coach; I maybe adapt the conversations I have off the pitch, and the way I deal with them away from the grass. 

They are footballers on the grass, they are footballers, and I will be direct, and I will give them information, but I might have a more sensitive conversation away from the grass, I might need to get to know them a little bit more as people, but then I think men are the same. Just because they don’t talk as much they still have the same needs, I just think maybe women are slightly more emotional, and I completely except that and I allow them time for their emotions, I allow them time for their frustrations, but ultimately it always comes back to the team. 

So, I have loved working with men, I have loved working with women, and football is football to me. 

You retired in 2018, and then went immediately to join Phil Neville’s England coaching team, so what was the experience like moving from being a Lioness’ to sort of the other side, being their coach?

Do you know what, it was a bit strange if I’m honest, but I felt like I had already gone through the transition, I mean this in the most honest way I can, because when Mark Sampson came in and dropped me and took the captaincy off me, and I barely played, I was still in every squad, I was still in every  leadership group, I still had a lot of conversations with him around team selection, I sat in and analysed gamed with staff. 

So, I felt like I had already maybe started that journey in my head, because I think when he came in I knew from the way things went that my England playing career was pretty much over, but what I decided was that I would make myself so valuable off the pitch, that no matter what you would always select me, because I prided myself on being a good person, I prided myself on always putting the team first, always trying to help, and I was the person that if there were any red flags, or anything going on, then I would try and put those fires out, as a senior player so that the manager didn’t have to deal with it. 

So, I felt like I’d kind of gone through that transition a little bit, and then obviously Mo came in and she wanted to change things, and then I knew Phil was coming in and I just felt it was the perfect time for me to transition into terms of playing. 

The thought of losing your entire income over night when your entire family relies on solely your income is absolutely terrifying, so when someone says to you here is an opportunity, you take it. You know, whether I was ready for it or not, I don’t know. 

It was on your terms as well wasn’t it? 

It was completely on my terms, Phil said to me you can carry on playing, you can maybe be a dual role and I was like absolutely not, if I’m doing this I am doing it whole heartedly and I am doing it 100%, because I don’t do anything by halves and I can’t do anything by halves, so I would have killed myself trying to do both jobs. 

So, it was the right time, my body had told me it was the right time too, I kept breaking down, I missed the entire Euro 2017 tournament through injury, though being there, so it was the right time for me to call it a day, and I knew it was right because I didn’t have any regrets. 
 
 

What do you think has been the biggest challenge moving from being a professional athlete, a Lioness, to being a coach? Does it feel different in the way you are living your life?

Way more hours, way more hours. I thought I was dedicated as an athlete, and it doesn’t even compare, don’t get me wrong I could do as many hours as I wanted, but if I’m going to do it properly, you know there are days when I get into work at six and I’m home for seven at night, most days, and that’s a choice. 

I get in early because I want to exercise, I leave late because I want be doing things and I want to make sure that I’m really, really productive with the time that I have got, I’m on the grass every day. The hours are one of the biggest challenges, one of the biggest challenges was laying the boundaries down, because I was  teammate to some of these players, some of them were my friends, you know and you still got to be able to be objective, you have got to have honest conversations, you have potentially got to put these people out of a contract, and they are your friends, so laying the boundaries was really important for me, and do you know what, being honest enough with myself to know that I have got so much more to learn, and I am going to make mistakes, but holding my hands up when I do, and I haven’t got everything right, I have made loads of mistakes, but that is why I have good staff around me and that is why I communicate with my players constantly. 

I think what I have tried to do is think about all the things I wanted as a player, you are not always going to get what you want, but all the things I wanted as a player and tried to implement them as a coach, because I think giving the players their schedule three months in advance is an easy win. I use to have two kids, and get mine the day before, so, how do you plan? How do I let my players from overseas go and get cheap flights? Because they can plan it. How do I let my players who want to go and get their nails, their hair done, go and see family, loved one, we don’t play these players enough money to let them not have a life outside of football, and that balance is so important. 

Not long after you took the job with the Lionesses’, with Phil Neville, you learnt about the opportunity at Man United, to be the first manager at Man United Women. I feel like it must have been a dream job for you, was there any hesitation in hearing about it that you didn’t throw your hat into the ring as it were?

Yeah there was, I have got to be honest there was a real hesitation not to throw my hat into the ring because I didn’t think I would get it if I’m honest. I knew there was a certain calibre of manager going for the job, I’d heard some names of real, real top managers that had been in the game going for the job, so I thought well why on earth are they going to give it to me? So, there was a reservation there, I was in a job, so it was a risk, but it was a very open and honest dialogue with Phil. 

He fully supported it, and he knew even after three months I was getting really frustrated in the international set up, because you are not coaching enough and I wanted to learn, and four days every month it wasn’t enough for me. I wanted to be in it day to day, so we had a conversation, I went to Old Trafford , I put a presentation together on what I would do, how I would recruit and what my philosophy would be, and how I’d build the club, and had an interview, which was probably the first time I’d had an interview in 6,7 years, so that was daunting in itself, but It was just being myself, speak about my passion for the game, I know there is nobody that knows the game in this country better than me, and obviously I knew which players I could recruit as well, and I’ll be honest I walked out the door and it was my agent that took me and said how did it go, and I said I actually don’t know, I was really uncertain, I had no clue, and then obviously I got the call to say I go the job. 

How did you feel then?

I was like oh my god, we start pre-season in July. 

When was it you were appointed? 

End of May, and obviously we could actually do anything until we had the licence announced, and when I got announced I think it was something like June 8th, so form June 8th to the 8th July I had to recruit an entire fulltime team, 21 players, all my backroom staff, and I was going on holiday for two weeks in that time, and I couldn’t cancel my holiday because I hadn’t had a holiday in a long time with my kids, so I was like I have got to go away. 

I am lucky that I can call a lot of people in the game, I knew a lot of people, I got recommended some fantastic staff, I met with them, it was a hell of a lot of stress, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of worrying whether we would get the contracts over the line, whether we would get that player, and I knew the type of players I wanted, I knew the type of squad I wanted, I wanted a young squad to start with, and I knew that going into the Championship, being fulltime with a young squad we could grow and develop together. A lot of train journeys, a lot of meeting with agents, that’s not my favourite part of the game, but we got there, and 8th July we walked into pre-season and we were ready to go. 

That is extortionary isn’t it really! And, did you feel the massive pressure because it was such a high-profile club, the appointment, etc, in that first season did you feel immense pressure? 

Do you know what, I don’t think I did because I think I was so well supported by the club, I had so many people helping me, making things happen, and making me feel like, the club took the pressure off me, they said there was absolutely no pressure to get promoted, we are going to make mistakes, as a club we were saying we are going to see how this goes, we might make mistakes, we are going to try and do it the best we can, but they are new to the women’s game I had to educate them on quite a lot of things, and they had to educate me because I had never worked with contracts before etc, it was a working together progress. 

So, I think they took the pressure off me, when I walked out at Tranmere for the first game, I think there was an element of this is it now I’m in it, and everyone is looking at me, and I know there is an element of people probably wanting me to fail, probably people thinking I shouldn’t have got the job, I hadn’t earnt my stripes, and I do remind people that whilst I was playing I had coached for 15, 16 years, so it wasn’t a first thing for me to do, I had also been a player manager at Chelsea, if you have ever been a player manager it is the most challenging thing you can ever do, but I trusted my players, I knew how hard working they were, I knew the work we were doing on the grass, I knew the fantastic support I had at the club, and we won our opening game 12-0 so that kind of took the pressure off. 

That is fantastic to hear in terms of the support from the club, and you have recently resigned to 2022, which is amazing, so in terms of what Man United are doing to drive forward the women’s game, what do you think they are doing that perhaps other clubs aren’t doing? Are you proud of the way they are leading?

Well I think for a start, we have the biggest global fan base as a club which really helps, the brand is huge. Could we do more? Yeah, of course we could, we know that, we know we could be doing more, we had the highest average attendances last year even though being in Championship, but that is something this year we have looked, like right okay now we are at a level, we need to up our marketing, we need to up that, we need to make sure we are out in communities, we need to make sure we are getting more in the ground. 

I think with Man United people just associate with the badge, and wherever we go there is excitement, when we play Chelsea it is a sell-out crowd, but do we need to do more? Yeah, of course we do, but at the same time I think Man United try to take care of the whole player, so we have a well being coach that is not employed by the club, that looks after the players and the staff, that is really important because my staff are under pressure too. I have one to one’s with my staff and players every six weeks, we have an education department, a player care department, we have obviously a lot of support from the team that the team that are wrapped around, the internal team, and you know I just think they just try to look after the person, and I think whoever comes to Man United is put in the spot light straight away, straight away their followers probably go up thousands, and there is an expectation, and the fans don’t care that you have been in it 20 months, they don’t care, if you lose they don’t care, they are going to come after you. So, we try and educate them on what to leave alone, what to read, because if I have asked you to do a job and you have done it, that is all that matters. 

If we fail, we all fail, and if they walk out on the pitch and they lose, it is my responsibility because it means I haven’t set them up right, and I will always say that to them. We are working progress, so I think Man United do a really good job, I think they market the team brilliantly,  I think if you look at our girls and something we really try to do, and something I am really, really close with, with the campaigns that go out, because I don’t want the girls to look approachable, I want them to look like strong, athletic women, that are playing football, that are working hard, that are grafting. 

So, we try and stay away from, yeah fun is fun, and we have fun, we have a lot of fun at the football club, we try and do different things in terms of taking them away from the pitch every now and again, one a month we do a task called Team United, where it is nothing to do with football, and it is stretching ourselves, comfort zones, having a laugh together, communication, working as a team, so we bring our barriers down, different people come out and lead in different ways, and we get to know each other as people so I think in terms of the club, I feel more supported than I have ever done at any other club, I think they market the girls really, really well, but at the same time they keep the pressure off the players which is really important. 

That is fantastic, sounds like a dream doesn’t it! And you have talked in the past about stadiums, about whether you would want to be playing in Old Trafford on a weekly basis, or whether it is not quite the time yet. So, what are your thoughts there on that for the women’s game now? 

Yeah, I think I have been quite clear this season, obviously we opened at the Etihad and it was a great experience, great crowd but kind of set the objective for the club to say until we are getting 5,6,7,8 thousand and we selling out Leigh, why would we go to Old Trafford? Because I have looked at all the games this season where they have played in big stadiums, there is no pay off the next week at the stadiums, so it is a great occasion, fantastic for the players, but it needs to be the right game, with the right leading, because if you have 20 thousand, 20 thousand in Old Trafford it is soleless, so if we are going to do it, lets do it, and lets make sure we break all the records. 

Let’s do it for the right game, on the right occasion, at the right window so everybody wants to come, but then lets makes sure we make the most of that occasion in terms of data collection, make sure we get the fans to come back to Leigh. So, I think they are great occasions, I just don’t think it would have been necessary now, first season in the WSL, to do it, it might be something we look at next year. 

Moving on to other slightly contentious subjects, the referring of the game, and it isn’t just you that has called this out, that quality of referees for the female game. Where do you feel that might change in the future?

Listen, I cant hide away from the fact I have been outwardly outspoken about it, but it is important, but do you know what it is not the referee’s fault and it is not fair, and maybe I have been unfair on them by criticising them because actually we have gone professional, they are not, there in lines your problem.

So, we are asking someone who has gone and done a fulltime job, worked 9 till 5, probably gone home sorted the kids out, to then come and run the line and get abuse of me for 90 minutes. So, I think there has to be more investment, and that is FA responsibility, potentially club responsibility to make sure that there is more funds going into refereeing to make them better, to make sure they have more opportunities to train, because we have a professional game, but we have amateur people controlling it, and I think that is where the problems have been. 

I think, I can’t hide it, the game does deserve better, and the players deserve better, and they work so hard and that is where I think you’ll find frustrations in head coaches and players is we are in it every day, we know how hard it is, we know the work that goes on, and also people’s job are on the line now. 

There is going to be more emotion based around it, but I think we all have a duty to makes sure we try and help referee’s in terms of investment. 

You seem incredibly passionate about creating a legacy for girls, and obviously two of your children are girls, and I have got three daughters, so I knew where you’re coming from, but has having daughters really amplified that for you do you think? 

Yeah, definitely it has massively reamplified that. I just think, football has such an opportunity to solve many social issues, and I think equality is definitely one of those, I’m not saying we should get equal pay, not yet, I think the American team is a very different situation, and they should have more money, not equal pay anyway, but I think for me having daughters, and having a little boy, it is about raising him too, to know that no matter what they are equal, they deserve the same opportunities, they deserve the same pay, they should be able to go for the same job, and if they have got the same job they should earn the same money. 

I think it has definitely made me look at the world differently, because I have never felt not equal, I’m not bothered about anything like that, I should be more bothered, because I play football, I have to pay to play, but I am also a realist, we get 2,700 in our ground, they get 80 odd thousands at Old Trafford, Sky pay millions and millions of pounds for broadcast rights, BT Sport don’t, so I’m a realist, so I know the women’s game at the moment runs at a loss, so until we fill the stands, until people want to pay more money to broadcast it, until there is more commercial sponsorship coming into the clubs, then we can talk about equal pay, and what we deserve, but I still think it is massive in terms of the girls being role models. I just want my little girls to never grow up with any barriers, and I had to fight so many, in so many different ways, just to play sport, and I don’t want that for them. 

And, would you want your son to play football? Would you want him in the men’s game?

Yeah, do you know what we take them to football, they go on a Sunday morning, I very rarely get to go because it is our game day, but when I do get to go, I love going and watching them. 

What are you like on the side line as a parent? 

Very quiet, very quiet, I want to be. I’m waiting for them to say can you come and coach, but I have seen those parents who have coached grassroots football, I want to be the parent that sits in the chairs, says nothing, and says thank you very much, because they are out there in the freezing cold for nothing! And I want to sit in the car, with my kid on the way home and say did you have a good time, and that should be all that matters. I don’t want to coach him. 

So, yeah I would love him to get involved, I would love my girls to get involved, but I just want them to be active, so we are trying everything at the moment, they do gymnastics, they do football, they do swimming, they do drama, they have done dance, and I’m like do you know what whatever you want to do, if you like it, go do it, and have a good go at it. 

How are you managing the balance of raising three small kids, being a mum, and working in such a high-pressured job and I guess those long hours that you alluded too earlier?

I manage it terribly! I am trying to work on it, and that is the well being coach, she works with me and we try and set schedules and plans. It is about planning ahead, but unfortunately in football things change so quickly, and you think you can get home at five, and something happens, and you’re stuck there. 

It is when your kids say to you mummy you are never home, and it is like a dagger in the heart. It is the guilt, but I have to remind myself why I am doing it, because I am doing it for them, I am doing it to give them a better life, I am doing it to set them up, I’m doing it to show them mummy works and is hopefully a great role model for them, but am I guilty? Yeah, but I make sure that I set certain times asides, that when I am home phone are away, I hate that, mummy you are on your phone still, and I am like oh no put your phone down, but I just think if you’re going to achieve anything great work life balance doesn’t exist, it doesn’t. 

You made a really definite choice to come out as gay in 2015, when you were England Captain, and I feel it is fantastic to use your platform in that way, and how much that must have positively impacted girls and boys. I remember you saying at the time, you are a gay woman in football, but that doesn’t mean to say that every woman playing football is gay. I understand, but why did you feel it was important to make that point at the time?

I hate stereotypes, and that is one of the reasons I didn’t come out for so long, because it as that whole oh of course she is gay, she plays football, and I am like half of my friends in football are married to men, and I hate pigeon holing and I hate stereotypes, that was why it was so important to me to say right yeah, I am gay, but it is not because I play football, and I didn’t want that stereotype for the rest of my friends in football. 

I just think it is so wrong, it is such a throw away comment that isn’t fair. I felt it was the right time, in terms of being England Captain, using my platform for a positive, was I petrified? Absolutely, did I know what was going to happen? No, probably about 98% was so positive, and the amount of people that reached out to me and said thank you. 

I remember one specific parent has messaged me to say, thanks so much, my daughter came down last night and had a conversation with me, and that was really, really nice, and they are the moment where you go, that is why I did it, because it made that young girl have the coverage to go and speak to her mum, and not live in fear, and in a place where as a parent I don’t want to know half of my little girl, I want to know all of her, and being able to influence someone like that was quite a thing for me. 

Obviously, you get negative’s, you do, you’re going to get that, people have their own mind, their own agenda, their own opinions, but they are opinions they don’t matter to me. 

And, do you feel there is still that sense of homophobia almost towards women’s sport? I think it then put teenage girls off at a time when they are sensitive to what people think too?

Yeah, I agree I think if you are 13/14 and there is a stereo type, you think I don’t want to be called a lesbian so you don’t do the sport, and it is unfair. There is a lot of gay women in sport, there is statistically there is, and it is because it is more accepting, but it doesn’t mean that there is not a lot of heterosexual women, there is, there’s an awful lot, and I think it could, I think you’re right, I think the stereotype of being butch put people off, I think the the stereotypes of being gay put people off, and I am like it is more so in football and rugby, there is a lot of gay women in tennis that don’t have the same stereotype of being butch because they wear a white dress, and they go out on a court and play tennis, but they are still strong athletic women. 

So, I hate the stereotypes, I’m like just let people do their jobs. 

And it is about changing societal attitudes about what is feminine and strong…

Yeah, I think you can be strong, athletic, and you can still look beautiful in a dress. 

You launched a fabulous book last year, called ‘Changing the Game’, so can you tell us a little bit about that and why you wrote it?

I spoke to some publishers a couple of years ago now, and we spoke about lots of different ideas for a book, one was going to be a kids fiction book and I thought it was going to be the idea we came up with now, and I thought it was a fantastic idea because when I was growing up, if I wanted to think about myself as a footballer, I couldn’t see myself in book form at all, and I think I so grateful for all the pioneers that went before me, that made the game what it is, the pioneers that are in the game now, that it what it is, and I thought they have never been celebrated, and people don’t know enough about the players in the world, don’t know enough about the journey womens football has gone on, and I thought this was a great idea to make women’s  football more visible and give those little girls something to see and believe, and to celebrate the players that have gone and are present now, that are fantastic. 

You could go into any book shop, and pick up a book about a male player, there is very rarely you can go in and pick one up about female players. 

I love that you have got broadcasters, you have got other people working within the womens game as well as athletes to? 

The thing I am keen on as well is, even as a player when you step out of the game people go oh are you going to go into coaching, well not everybody wants to be a coach, but there’s so many more avenues that are open to women now, it sounds terrible to even say that, they should have always been open to women, it is a job, whether it is broadcast, whether it is media, whether it is journalism, whether it is photography, whether it is PR, someone has got to do it, there are so many more, and I think women are brilliant at their jobs, and I always think I love having women in my team, but I love having men in my team too because I think if you have men and women together you have much better decision making process, and I wouldn’t have one or the other as a single identity. So, I think football now fortunately is opening its doors and catching up with society.

And just in closing, a little bit more about coaching because I guess that is where you are and who you are, so I do feel there is a sort of lack of women still at that very highest level, and performance directors across lots of sports, and Olympic and Paralympic sports too, so why do you think that is still now?

I was looking at the Olympic figures the other day, and I found it quite shocking actually in terms of the amount of female coaches, yeah it is not a lot at all. I think first of all it is opportunity, I think who is doing the job interview, who is interviewing the people, probably men, a lot of it, I think a lot of it has come from in terms of there is more women coming into the game now, because womens’ games’ perception has changed, so it is changing perceptions of female coaches.

I think what’s the girl who has just been in the NFL, absolutely incredible and it made me step up and go wow, but it makes you step up because she is the only one, and you go well it’s sport, if you know it, and you’re dedicated, it shouldn’t matter whether you are male or female, but I think it is opportunity, it is probably the fear that a women might want to take 9 months off at some point for maternity which you know happens, that is life, that is why we are all here. I think it is probably, it goes back years, where women haven’t been in it, and also it is probably, if I go from my experiences every coaching course I have ever been on, I am the only women in the room, unless you are a strong person it is daunting, it is absolutely daunting. So, it is putting themselves through it, women have stereotypically a different role to play as well, are they mum at home at the same time as trying to be a coach, and looking after their family.

So, I think there is loads of reasons, but I think it has to change. It has to change in terms of investment into coaching, giving women opportunities. You have the Rooney Rule in America, why can’t there be a similar rule for females?

Finally, for girls coming through and listening to this podcast and thinking about a career in coaching, what advice, what gems of advice, would you give?

Get out and do it. First of all, get yourself on a course to get yourself the opportunities, get out, find a local team, whatever you want to do just immerse yourself in it, because I think once you are in it, and you start coaching the opportunities get better, it is the fear of getting out there. Take the local team, take the grassroots team, see what opportunities there are to do it, watch as much of game as you can, get yourself on as many coaching courses as you can, surround yourself with people that coach, go and learn off others as well you know. 

I am never too proud to say, I would go and watch anybody, because I think you can learn so much off other people in terms of the way they are as a person, their manor, maybe the drills they do, the way they coach their players, you can learn so much so you have got to immerse yourself in what you want to do, and you have got to be prepared to sometimes be uncomfortable doing it because you might be on a course on your own as a female, you might be in an environment where it is all men, you might have to struggle for a little while, and maybe learn as you go and make mistakes, and be okay with making mistakes because we all make mistakes.