Pope Leo vs China - podcast episode cover

Pope Leo vs China

May 11, 202512 min
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Episode description

China is cracking down on religious freedom and Pope Leo XIV faces a raging controversy about a deal his predecessor signed with Xi Xinping’s Communist Party. Today - how the China situation helped Leo defeat other contenders, and the dilemma he faces now. 

Find out more about The Front podcast here. You can read about this story and more on The Australian's website or on The Australian’s app.

This episode of The Front is presented and produced by Claire Harvey and edited by Jasper Leak, who also composed our theme. Our team also includes regular producer Kristen Amiet, Lia Tsamoglou, Tiffany Dimmack, Joshua Burton and Stephanie Coombes.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript

Speaker 1

From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. It's Monday May twelve, twenty twenty five. Rome's conclave is done. Now it's Canberra's turn. This morning the National Party votes on its leadership, and on Tuesday the Liberals gather to choose between Susan Lee and a double act featuring Angus Taylor and Jaciner NumPy Price. Anthony Alberanezi will today reveal his reshaped cabinet in the wake of a tirade from

dumped Minister Ed Husick. Husick says his support for Palestine cost him the job and calls Deputy PM Richard Miles a factional assassin. Pope Leo the fourteenth has been in the job for three days and already his biggest early test is looming how to grapple with the Chinese Communist Party's tightening group on the Catholic Church. Chinese Catholics, just like all people of faith, have been persecuted in China, but the late Pope Francis signed a deal with Beijing

that's wildly controversial. Today, Leo versus the Dragon. As Catholics around the world mourned Hope Francis. One point four billion Catholics mourning the passing of Pope.

Speaker 2

Pope Francis has died aged eighty eight.

Speaker 1

And cardinals made their way to Rome to choose a new pope.

Speaker 2

I no desire to create bitterness in this conclave, and I will be happy to stand down as deep.

Speaker 1

The Chinese Communist Party was an opportunity. Without consulting the Vatican, China appointed two new bishops of the Catholic Church. It was a brazen power move.

Speaker 2

It was really quite inappropriate, and the Vatican hadn't been told beforehand. Bishops can only ever be finally appointed in the Church if the reigning pope signs off on and these two were appointed after France has died.

Speaker 1

Jess Livingston is a senior journalist with The Australian. She spent years reporting and writing about the Catholic Church, including two books about the late Cardinal George pell.

Speaker 2

They want the Catholic Church in China for some reason, but they want it on their terms.

Speaker 1

The new bishops weren't China's only move during the interregnum between two popes.

Speaker 2

China has brought in a whole set of new rules from the first of May that unless the church workers and indeed church participants and worshipers toe the line on a whole lot of rules, they can be arrested and faced criminal charges, which is pretty off putting to the whole process. That's not just for Catholics over but other Protestant religions and Buddhists will suffer under that, as will

Fallongong and other groups. They really are cracking down on freedom of religion in China, which is very concerning.

Speaker 1

Since Chairman Maujidong took control in nineteen forty nine, China is officially a communist state, that means it's Apeist two. Religion is theoretically allowed, but only under the tight control of the Chinese Communist Party. In the late fifties, the Catholic Church was to be incorporated into official Communist Party

structures and renamed the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. Many Catholics, just like other religious people, have tried to continue practicing their own way in private homes and what's known as the traditional or underground Catholic Church.

Speaker 2

Christians have had a very rough deal from the Chinese Communist Party. Many, particularly adherents of the traditional Church, have been persecuted. There have been priests in jail there for decades, lay people tortured pretty brutally to Claire.

Speaker 1

Adding to the tension, the Holy See doesn't recognize mainland China, instead enraging the Communists by recognizing Taiwan as the true China. And that's where Pope Francis comes in. When he became pope in twenty thirteen, Francis wanted to establish diplomatic relations with China, something previous Popes John Paul and Benedict had also hoped.

Speaker 2

For the reason they never signed an agreement was when the negotiations got going, they saw straight away China was just going to impose too many limitations and restrictions on them.

Speaker 1

Francis and his Vatican Secretary Estate, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, pushed ahead and in twenty eighteen signed an agreement with the government of Shijinping. But the agreement is secret. It's never been seen in public.

Speaker 2

The agreement meant, I think that China would be able to ensure that the like minded bishops would be appointed bishops in sympathy with the Chinese Communist Party regime basically, and it caused a huge amount of anger there's an extraordinary character in Hong Kong. Cardinals Zenni's ninety three going on fifty, his bright and alert. He's very funny actually, but he said, look, this is a betrayal. You've thrown the faithful Catholics in China under the bus. He traveled

to the Vatican to see Francis about it. He was barred on one occasion from seeing Francis, and he was quite public about it. So it really has caused a lot of controversy, and I think the Church in Rome probably thought, with reasonable expectations that it might generally lead to a bit more religious freedom in general in China for everybody. That has not proven to be the case.

Speaker 1

This all sounds very familiar to any student of Chinese history. In the fifties, China invaded Tibet, which the CCP considers Chinese territory, and began brutal repression of monks and clerics. Ancient monases were sacked, The young Dalai Lama was whisked out of the country and into India. He's never been back. In nineteen ninety five, the Chinese government kidnapped the second highest spiritual figure in Tibet, a six year old boy who had been proclaimed panchen Lama that is the reincarnation

of a long line of sacred leaders. This boy and his family disappeared into China, and China replaced him with a panchen Lama of its own, choosing coming up. How all this played into the election of Pope Leo. Behind the scenes of the real life conclave. When the cardinals shuffled into the Sistine Chapel to elect a new pope

last week, the China situation loomed large. Two of the men considered front runners to be Pope were Vatican Secretary of State Pietro Paolin and Louis Tugley, the Filipino Cardinal. Tug Lay was an enthusiastic backer of the China deal, and Paolin, one of the men who negotiated it with China, was tarred by association.

Speaker 2

It's become of greater concern over the years as China has become more aggressive, especially in our region. No one's forgotten that Cardinal Pailum came out and criticized Aucus when that agreement was finalized with Australia, the United States and Britain, and he said, oh, you know, it could lead to an arms race in the Pacific, it'll be bad for peace, etc.

Speaker 1

Etc.

Speaker 2

Now, it was a bit of a one sided statement and it rather echoed the Chinese view of aucurs at the time, So I don't think that did his cause a lot of good. With a large group of cardinals.

Speaker 1

Robert Prevost came through the middle and was elected Pope Leo the fourteenth. On Saturday, he called a consistory to ask for cardinals collaboration.

Speaker 2

He got all the cardinals together while they're still in Rome and had a meeting. That again was something Francis never liked to do, and Leo said at that meeting, you're my closest advisors. I want to hear from you. And everyone was delighted about that because it means he'll work with the College of Cardinals. Someone at that meeting, someone who's very experienced, who worked as a Vatican official for many years, he got up and said, look, something

has got to be done about this agreement. It is not working out now, it's not helping the Church, and it's not helping people in China, or is it helping any religion in China.

Speaker 1

There must be a bit of a dilemma for Leo now in regards to this Chinese deal, because presumably if he rips it up, the risk is that he exposes Chinese Catholics to retribution.

Speaker 2

Oh, persecution, absolutely, Claire. Oh, look, I think people arguing it should be ripped up of being extremely naive. I think he will be as sensible, steady as she goes person. I don't think he will rip it up. It would be good, I think in the interests of transparency if it was made public and people actually knew the provisions of it, and then you know, we can see if China is held to account with its part of the bargain.

He'll probably try to keep it, but on better terms and most of all ensure that China stick to their part of it.

Speaker 1

Tess Livingston is a senior US with The Australian and the author of several books. You can read her work and all our deep analysis and reporting on matters of

faith anytime at The Australian dot com dot au. Murdered crook Johnny Shotgun Reagan, the focus of our new true crime podcast, The Gangster's Ghost, was stock whipped as a kid by his brutal mother, Claire, known as the Colonel that abuse set Reagan on the path to being one of Australia's most feared killers, and you can dive into that investigation right now by joining us at Gangster's Ghost dot com dot a you

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