Kiota.
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The National Certificate of Educational Achievement or NCEA, has been New Zealand's main secondary school qualification for more than twenty years now, but its future could be on the line as more top schools plan to offer alternatives and a government briefing raised concerns about its credibility.
So is NCEA really as bad as.
It's made out to be? And what would be the benefit of switching your kid over to another option?
Out there?
Today?
On the front Page, Doctor Nina Hood from the Education Hub is with us to discuss the future of high schooling in New Zealand. Nina.
In the last few.
Weeks weeks, we've seen EPSOM Girls' Grammar announce it will offer Cambridge exams next year. Mount Albert Grammar's principle has said it's under pressure to offer it as well, and Auckland Grammar's principle wants it scrapped entirely. Are you surprised to see this push away from n the CEA?
Not really, I think we've seen it happen over a number of years.
Right.
So since NCIA came out in the early two thousands, we've had a number of schools that have started.
To offer alternative qualifications.
So this has been something that's been consistent with NCA throughout the.
Whole time that we've had it.
I think the latest round of schools saying actually, maybe we are going to consider something else is in part a reflection of frustrations about some of the more recent things that have happened with NCA.
But I think what we've also.
Seen is that last month there was a briefing paper given to the government which outlined a whole host of issues with the qualification, and I think that's possibly spurred some schools to really reconsider what they're.
Doing, what are some of the concerns and issues evolving from it.
So I think there are a number of things that have been identified. One is around a lack of consistency. So we know that the way that the qualification works, students can sit individual standards, so they're not necessarily doing a whole body of work within a single subject. They're able, to some degree peck and queues. This has led to some students in some schools just opting into what are
perceived to be easiest standards. In many instances, it is meant that students are getting the qualification just through sitting internal assessments, so doing course work during the year that's marked by school teachers. And what we know about the internals from research that's happened over a number of years is that in many cases they suffer from great inflation, so there's not always a lot of validity about it. And so you've got students who are not necessarily sitting
the external exams either. So there are a whole host of different issues, and I think another thing that's come up is that the qualification is not necessarily easily internationally comparable either.
So the suggestion of picking and choosing is that where the gaming the system chat comes from.
It is the gaming the system part of it. So depending there are different ways that you can achieve your qualification. And so what a lot of students are doing is thinking how can I utilize the flexibility that's built into
NCA to ensure that I get the qualification? And in some instances, but it's really important to stress this is not happening in all schools or in all instances, they say, how can I pick so called easier credits in order to build up my qualification, rather than say, sitting the entirety of your level three maths paper, you say, I'll pick this set of this standard here, this standard here, in order to build it up, rather than saying, actually, I'm just going to sit a full year thirteen Maths
course or a whole year thirteen English course.
And why wouldn't you though, if that option was available to you. Of course these kids are going to go for the easier option.
Yeah, I mean it is a very rational response to the way that the qualification set up, right, so you can't blame them for doing this. And one of the other things that we know is happening is that you need to get a certain number of credits in order to pass each level of NCA. Well, for some students they get the necessary credits just through internal assessments during the year, and as a result, they're not sitting the end of your exams.
Again, incredibly rational behavior.
Why would you sit for an exam if it's actually not going to you don't need it in order to pass the qualification. From a purely learning point of view, of course, you want them to be doing that, and of course you want them to be engaging with the full scope of the work. But the way the qualification set up means that you don't use this Sily have to.
What are some of the stats or research that you've seen around in CEA. Is it getting into a crisis mode?
Should we be worried?
So we know that an increasing number of schools are no longer offering level one, so that's what students normally set in year eleven. So I think it's around twenty five to thirty percent of schools are no longer offering
a level one qualification. In many instances, it's because level one is not seen to be a particularly I mean, it doesn't lead to a lot now right, So what the research would tell us is that students who get level one and only level one are not necessarily better off in terms of their employment opportunities compared to students who don't get level one, and that sort of the low eventchmark really for qualifications is your level two what
you normally do in year twelve. So as a result of a lot of schools are dropping that and that does raise questions if you have a growing number of schools across the country saying actually we're not going to offer one level of the nationalqual Alification system. You do have to start asking questions about what's going on.
Are you going to blow it up?
When are you going to everything's on the table, because genuinely, there's nothing more important than getting our kids well educated. I speak to a lot of parents, teachers, principles. They have really serious concerns about NCAA and the danger as you can go through an exercise where you reassured that you're getting well educated because you're getting different getting through
the NCAA system. But the thing for me and for the parents and teachers that I run into is, are our kids at fifteen sixteen as well educated as their counterparts in Australia or Canada or Ireland or something else we went to. We can't. That's got to be globally comparable. And secondarity, are we actually teaching them the basics and giving them a core educational program that actually sets them up well for working life?
Is there some old fashioned thinking here as well? I mean, I feel like a certain generation is just fixated on that idea of end of year exams being the be all and then all right, And I remember, I'm not giving away my age, but it was certainly that way when I finished high school as well. But it is true that that kind of one size fits all approach doesn't work for every kid, right.
Yeah, absolutely right.
And I think one of the things, one of the reasons why NCA was brought in and the way that it was brought in was to create a degree.
Of flexibility within our schooling system.
So it enabled students to receive a qualification by putting together different series of standards, different sets of credits.
To form a pathway that was going to work for them.
And I think whenever we're thinking about our qualification system, we want to be ensuring that we have pathways for different types of students.
I think what's.
Happened on the flip side, though, is that that's potentially gone a little bit too far and we need to actually look at some of what's going on in there. So there are definitely things that we need to strengthen, and you know, there are steps that we could take
that would strengthen it. And I mean, personally, I think that probably is a role for indo viewer exams, but I'm not sure that that's the only method that we want to be using and we know that in a number of subjects, actually having internals is also really important because there are things that you just can't assess through an ind of viewer exam.
So since we're talking about alternatives, let's look at the big two that are offered. Hey, so Cambridge and the International Backer Laureates, which I've heard referred to as IB for FS reasons. So what are they and how do they differ from in CEA?
Sure, so Cambridge is out of the UK, IB is out of Switzerland, and you're right, the other two big international qualifications that are used around the world, but also a number of New Zealand schools are utilizing. So in Cambridge, that's probably your most traditional So if you're thinking back to sort of what it used to be like, it's quite similar to what Cambridge is. You would normally in
your final two years of school. So the program runs across the final two years of school, so you're year twelve and year thirteen. Students are usually taking four maybe five subjects in that and they are primarily assessed through an end of year exam, although some subjects do have some internal assessment component built into that, but you do
have far more of an exam focus. You know, you pick the subjects that you're going to do and you do the entirety of that subject, so you don't have a subject made up of individual standards that you can pick and choose on. You just sit that subject. International Facalaureat I'd be in some way similar, but it's a
more holistic system. So again it runs over the final two years of school, So it's a two year course and it comprises a max of both external exams at the end of your course as well as a number of internal assessments. I think one of the key differences between IV and Cambridge is that in ID you do do more subjects, and you also are required to take
a range of different subjects. So for instance, you take a science, you take maths, you take English, you learn a language, you do a humanity or social science.
But you also have.
Learning that you do in activities that you do outside of your sort of academic program.
So they have.
Something called the theory of Knowledge, which is really around philosophy that all students take. All students are required to do what they call CASS, which stands for Creativity Activity in service, So you have to do something creative so that might be music, it might be drama, it might be dance. You have to do activity, which is some sort of sport or physical activity, and some sort of service activity. So you're getting quite a holistic, sort of
well rounded aspect to your education. And you also do what they call the extended essay. You pick one of the subjects that you're doing and you do an in depth research project in it. So it is a very holistic, broad qualification, right.
And when I asked, because I'm not from this land, so I asked a few people around the office which ones that they did are, ninety nine percent said that they did n CAEA. And when I asked about the Cambridge and IB a couple of comments were like, well, they're just like kind of for rich schools or people who want to do UNI.
At like Oxford or something. I mean, is that a fair assessment? I mean, I think yes and no.
I mean, one thing I would say is that you can get into universities around the world sitting in CEA. So I wouldn't want anyone to think, oh my goodness, I'm not going to be a up to go to somewhere else to do my university. Because I did NCA. That's absolutely not true, you can. I think you're right in saying that in many cases it's your larger secondary schools from you know, wealthier areas that are opting to
do these alternative qualifications. In the case of IB, that's because it's actually really expensive to do IB for a school to set up IB, and part of the reason for that is that all teachers who are teaching IB have to go through quite a rigorous training program in order to be able to teach IB, and in most instances, those training programs happen off shore, so schools are having to fund teachers to go off shore to participate in
their training. But you're definitely right in that it is largely our larger secondary schools from higher socioeconomic areas that are opting to do these alternative pathways.
In CEA is still a good qualification. It's just not consistent and it can be massively improved. And that's the key. I don't want to stand here today and say, Lo, the MCA is terrible. It's still a very good qualification. Many students still end up in high quality universities all over the world. Many people are still choosing it over other qualifications, but there is a lot that we can do to strengthen it, to make it more consistent, to
make parents understand it. I mean, why on earth can we not go back to a markout of one hundred for goodness sake. ABC, I've got my children coming home saying I only had to answer two of the questions to get excellent. But what do you mean you didn't have to answer all of the questions? Oh, I don't know, just the excellence one.
What are the results like?
Is there any better?
That's a really hard question to answer, right, because what we know is that in many of these schools actually they retain INCA as well, So you have some students doing nca you do have some students doing Cambridge or International Baccalaureate, So it's really hard to make a direct comparison.
It's also really hard to compare results with the NCAA with results actually in either of the other qualifications because the way that their assessed is slightly different, So you can't make a direct comparison.
I guess in terms of those three qualifications, would you recommend one over the other or does it just depend on the kid.
So I'm always a big advocate and just about anything in education and saying you match it to the child. And you know, I think IB could definitely suit some people. But if you've got someone who has a particular interest in certain subjects, he's actually really not going to suit them because you're having to do a wide range of subjects, you know, and that's where INCA can be really valuable,
because you can start to specialize in particular subjects. I think the other thing that we haven't touched on that's really critically important when we're thinking about any qualification system, and particularly if we're thinking about well, what where do we go next to New Zealand, is that alongside any sort of more academically oriented qualification system, we also need to make sure that we've got a really strong vocational education and a training system running alongside that, because we
know that there are a number of children in our school for whom that is the right pathway for them.
At the end of the day.
And this is something that I found interesting when talking to a couple of the younger ones in the office as well. Does it still seem like if you don't do well in year thirteen that that is the end of your life? You know that feeling of just say, I'm like, is it the same? Because I remember where it was year twelve back where I'm from, and I remember getting my results back and there being a discrepancy or something, and I, honestly, god, I thought, this is it.
This is the end. I'm never going to amount to anything in my entire life.
Is that still drilled into kids these days. Yeah, that's a really interesting question.
I mean, I think the qualifications that you get at the end of school are always going to be important because you know, it's at that age that's sort of the barrier or frontier between that and the next thing that you're going to go on to do. And you know, particularly for students who are wanting to go on to university,
then yeah, that is really important. But it's a really interesting question to explore and to ask because we also know that there are changing dynamics, and you know, there are people around the world who are questioning more and more the value of university and whether it's the right pathway for different people to be pursuing. But I think by and large, there is still a perception, definitely among broader society that qualifications in school do matter, that they do still stand for something.
And just lastly, Nina, if you could change anything about the system tomorrow. So you've got Erica Stamford on the phone. She's like, yes, Nina, I will do whatever you tell me. I'll do it today. What's the first thing that you would tackle?
I mean, I think what you've got to do is you've got to make sure that our qualification system is being based off our curriculum. Right, in an ideal world, what you do is you write a really great curriculum and then you design an assessment system that actually enables you to assess how well the students have progressed through
that particular curriculum. NCA hasn't actually worked like that. It has operated distinct from the curriculum, in part because there are a whole host of issues with the current curriculum, although those are being addressed by the work that's currently underway and redeveloping the curriculum. But essentially, what you have is a qualification system and a set of standards that are defining the curriculum as it is at the moment.
So we need to flip that.
We need to say, what's our curriculum, make sure it's really rigorous and robust, and then design a qualification system that enables us to reliably and validly test that.
Right, so what you've been learning during the year actually shows up in the end of your exam.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And I think you know, one of the things we could also do because we know we have an issue with internal assessments at the moment with NCAA, and we don't want to get rid of them completely.
We want to have certain.
Aspects, of course in a program that are internally assessed, but we need to find a way to make that internal assessment more robust, and there are a number of ways that.
We could do that.
One is that you could say, actually, it's not the classroom teachers that are going to be marking those internals. They're all going to be centrally marked. And that's what some of the other international qualification systems do. They don't enable individual schools to mark their own students' work. They
send them out centrally and they're marked centrally. I think the other thing we could do with our current system, if we were to keep it the way it is, is to actually not tell students their internal assessment grades until the end of the year. Because that would then force them to actually continue to engage in the learning that they have to do right, And what we have is students that basically say, oh, I've got all my credits, I'm going to stop learning part.
Way through the year.
Well that's ridiculous. They're just losing out on all that potentially valuable learning. So we could find a way to try and stop that from happening as well.
Thanks for joining us, Nina, my pleasure.
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzedherld dot co dot nz.
The Front Page is produced by.
Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.