Kilda.
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Just over seventy years after Sir Edmund Hillary first ascended Mount Everest, the world's highest peak is grappling with new ethical dilemmas, from crowded summit attempts and ecological strain to debates about climate preparedness and the treatment of sherper's. Everest's story today is just as complex as ever. The Himalayan Trust, founded by Sir ed and his wife, continues to support local
communities at the heart of these challenges. His grandson, Alexander Hillary now runs the organization and joins us now on the Front Page to discuss what respecting Everest means and whether we still do so. Alexander has climbing Mount Everest become, I suppose, more of a commercial venture nowadays rather than a personal or spiritual challenge.
Do you think, well, I think it's changed a lot over the years. So when my grandfather first climbed it, there was all sorts of things going on then as well.
There was the Commonwealth, but then there was also this sort of curiosity for achieving the impossible, I think today, you know, whilst in nineteen ninety sort of commercial mountaineering started, so it's a really really new industry and I think that's what people talk about when they talk about sort of climbing Everest is really what's been happening since nineteen ninety to today, and it is becoming quite a very
important commercial venture. There's been a lot of sort of negative talk around that, and I think it is important to remember that this has you know, enormous value both to the Sherpa people, but also you know, to mountaineering as a whole, because it's this incredibly iconic thing, climbing Everest. It's the epitome of accomplishment for a lot of people.
What has the booming climbing industry. What kind of effect has it had on local Sherber communities, I guess economically, socially or culturally even unbelievable.
So when my grandfather first arrived, you know, in the Solukumbu region, which is the Everest region of Nepal, it was the poorest region of one of the poorest countries in the world. So they were a subsistence farmers living in a pretty inhospitable place at high altitude and it was very very tough living that they were living having.
So when the everest industry started, a lot of Nepalis would start working in the industry because you could make a lot of money through it, and they were very talented, you know where looking at high altitude, they were strong, well acclimatized. But they would go up onto the mountain for a couple of months every year and they would make you know, in many cases, and this is the case today, they will to make more in a couple
of months than the average national salary of Nepal. So from that perspective, it's well worth the time of getting up onto the mountain and spending a couple of months of hard work there. And it's just meant huge changes.
The climbers that are now working on Everest, they own businesses, They have trecking businesses, guiding businesses on mount everests, they have lodges, shops, helicopter companies even, and it's just meant that the change in lives and livelihoods in the region is pretty unbelievable.
And you mentioned kind of the commercial ability. That's not even a word, but let's pretend it is. From the nineteen nineties onwards. How I guess, how does social media culture, how does that even change? I suppose from the mid two thousands up until now that that need or want or desire or you know, that bucket list kind of thing of making it up Everest.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting because you know, Everest is looked at as the you know, it's the tallest mountain, and it's one of these things that we think of as sort
of the epitome of accomplishment. But social media is really blowing it open and showed us the bit by bit sort of steps to achieve a mountain like Everest, and I think, you know, that's that's opened up a lot of controversy, rubbish cues other people, and I think the New Zealanders it can be quite abrupt to see, you know, we go to the mountains to sort of be at one with nature, to have this experience of solitude and admiration, and that's you know, often what we see on Everest.
You know, at the moment, it's it's not what.
We see through social media, but there is I think there's there's a lot of sort of misguide that nests through the stuff that we're seeing on social media.
For instance, one of the.
Famous things in recent years has been the cues on Interest. But you know, only a few days after that famous photo was taken, the mountain was almost empty and climbers standing on the salmon of Everest just you know, a couple of their teammates. So there is something quite misleading about that, But it also has you know, exposed a lot of the sort of more complicated truths of the risk industry as well.
Hundreds of people now go up every year, and commercial expeditions haven't just significantly increased access to the mountain, they've also increased comfort. There are now luxury expeditions that can cost up to one hundred and thirty thousand dollars, offering things like heated tents with diving tables, and at this point we should probably talk about how all those amenities and indeed most climbers get up the mountain, and that's
with shirpers well. The whelming majority of expeditions rely on shelpers to do everything from carrying supplies to putting up tents to setting the ropes and ladders. They are absolutely integral to commercial expeditions, as the sherper will readily tell.
You how many of the clients that you see coming to Everest could do it without you?
I would say zero zero, yeah, none of them. None of them.
And do you think that social media gives the impression that like anyone can go up there? I mean, you do have to put in the hard yards and train for months before heading to Everest.
I would think, well, months or years really, And I think that's where things have gotten a bit wrong, because before nineteen nineteen, for two thousand, you know, this was the pinnacle of achievement of a mountaineous career. That might be you know, they may have started climbing in their twenties and then in their late forties they finally go right to I'm going to go for Everest and they climb it. And difference between Like in those days when my dad climbed it, they were climbing in a team,
but they were each responsible for decisions themselves. They decided well, they cooked for themselves, They made decisions about snow conditions, about weather, about when to turn back, about how to climb the mountain. Today that's not happening so much.
A lot of that.
Responsibility is being put to guides and I think that's that is a bit of an issue, is you've got people showing up to the mountain that haven't put in the work required to turn themselves into a really skilled mountaineer. You know, you need to be a really skilled mountaineer to take on Mount Everest. It's not good enough just to have a very basic understanding, you know, of snowcraft.
And I think you know, social media and this whole sort of attitude around the youngest or stuff like that of being the first person does sort of stray us away from what mountaineering is really about.
And what is mountaineering really about?
Well, I think that's.
Different question for each person, but I think mountaineering on its whole is like what's so you know, rewarding about mountaineering is it's about the challenge, and it's about proficiency of skills. You know, you have to make decisions around whether your own personal ability, you know, the snow conditions, and it's it's about sort of gaining those skills and then putting your those skills to practice in the mountain
environment and coming out successful and alive. And you know, it's it's an amazing sport to be involved in, but you need to be careful because the consequences are incredibly serious, not just for yourself but for others as well. And I yeah, I think we need to go back to sort of those roots of mountaineering and remember, you know, what's at stake, And how do we do that?
Do you think do we restrict people? Do they need a special certificate like I've mountaineered to Certificate five so I can tackle Everest or something like that. How do we stop people who are so unprepared from giving it a go.
Well, I think, you know, there's a certain amount of sort of rules and regulations that you can solve with this. But ultimately, and Nepal is doing some of that stuff. They're saying you now need to climb a six thousand meter peak in Nepal before you tackle.
An eight thousand meter peak. But rarely this needs to.
Come from a cultural shift, a shift where we acknowledge that, you know, before you climb Everest, you need to be able to climb Mount Rupe who and you know be able to do you know, just take small steps up towards big goals and remember that you know you can't. While it may be extraordinary to go from zero to one hundred from nothing to climbing Everest. It's better to build those skills, build that experience.
Up to an incredible accomplishment.
And I think there's something way more rewarding about that journey to than just being able to say I ticked the box.
I still on the summit of Everest.
Because you see online, don't you that people like, well, should we ban it all together? Is it the end of you know, traveling up Everest? Should we leave it alone or something? But in reality, if a full ban was to take place, the Nepalese community would suffer immensely, right, Like a lot of them require this tourism industry to stay alive, absolutely.
So, Like the Hamlan Trust was set up with my grandfather and he recognized that there was this great need for sort of education and healthcare and different infrastructure to projects. And we've been working on that for over sixty years. But you know the other part of that is the economy and industry, and Everest is the center of that
for the people that we're working with. It's what draws people in, It's what provides tourism jobs, it's what funds and fuels agriculture and all different trading so it is really really critical. But you know, again I sort of think about it. You know, Everest is is like you know the Milford Sound, you know, for Nepal, we can't just shut it off and say no one's going to
go there. It's this where we're both countries that are really lucky to have these really special tongue are these special places of you know, international global significance, and we need to learn how to to you know, look after them sustainably, to cherish them, and to develop a really good culture around interacting with these places, these spaces, not sort of having a reactionary sort of we're going to shut this off or we're going to just totally totally
blow it open, and that's not you know, I think it's something that comes from rules and regulation. That's something you know, a cultural shift that we need to create.
Yeah, do you think that we've lost respect for Mount Everest?
I think maybe a little bit. But I think there are so many people that you know, love that mountain and have so much respect for the mountain. You know, the shirt people, it's of enormous significance. It's chom Longma, It's the mother god of the world. And I think, you know, it is a beautiful mountain despite everything that
gets said about it. It's got so many different aspects, beautiful routes that haven't been climbed some of them, and people doing amazing things and sort of you know, just recently, Jim Morrison did an incredible first ski descent off down off Mountain Everest on the north side, which is just this sort of wonderful, hopeful, exciting story of mountaineering and accomplishment, really pushing the envelope of what can be achieved, and it was something that sort of, I guess honored the mountain,
and I think we need to sort of, you know, really connect with that, and each person that wants to sort of go and climb Everest and embark on that adventure, I think needs to do it from a place of respect, not for themselves, not for a LinkedIn post or you know, sort of a self promotion thing.
Yeah, I got up there with a selfie stick or something.
That One of the effects of high altitude is it's a little bit like having a dose of influenza almost. Being a high altitude, a lot of your energy and a lot of your drive tends to be sapped, and people feel fit and able to cope with altitude at different times, even during a single you know, the few
months of an expedition. So obviously you've got to get people who are well acclimatized, who have the drive and the enthusiasm at the right time in order to sort of throw them towards the summit and say go to it. And it is conceivable, though an actual fact, I'm intending an eye worfit throughout the expedition. It would be conceivable that at the start of an expedition there might be a couple of people who would have been more suited to the summer than later on. But there was I
don't think there was much doubt. At the latter stay of the expedition. We were very fit and we were very strong, so we were selected by the expedition leader was John Hunt, as the people to put in the final show.
So you mentioned obviously the Himalayan Trust before Sir Edmund and Louise Hillary founded that in the nineteen sixties. And while everyone obviously connects him to being the first to have reached the summit, to ed his greatest achievement was not climbing Everest, but in fact it was helping the people of Nepal. Tell me a little bit about this trust and the work that it does.
Well.
Yeah, so my grandfather and my grandmother founded it in the nineteen sixties and the Trust essentially over the years has built you know, schools and hospitals, forestry, nurseres, water systems, all sorts of things for the shared people.
I should say, it's not just it.
It was lots of kiwis, you know, from all over New Zealand that would come in, you know, lawyers that would.
Help with different things.
Builders, you know, doctors, teachers, a whole range of different people that would give their time. And over the years it's achieved a lot. You know, we've built many, many schools. We're now supporting over one hundred schools throughout the region and hospitals as well, and so it's this amazing legacy
for New Zealand. You know, New Zealanders have been engaged in the three region a huge amount and I think that's really special and it was actually amazing to sort of celebrate that connection when we had a visit by the Minister for Foreign Affairs Winston Peter's earlier this year. And I think that was an amazing acknowledgment of that connection because there's been a huge amount of Kiwis that have contributed a lot to Himalayan communities and it continues
to this day. We continue to support the schools and hospitals and we're actually partnering at the moment with another amazing sort of New Zealand based organization called Edgitech, which comes out of christ Church Micro and she Autrism, and we're building computer aps together. So we've built fifty computer
ads in the past five years. And I think what's really special about it is it's this sort of quite uniquely Kiwis story of adventure and philanthropy sort of blended together, about going and challenging herself doing a big adventure, but also sort of carrying others with you and supporting people. And I think it's a really heart warming story that a lot of Kiwis can sider get behind.
And I suppose you've been over there for fair few times. What are the people like and what do they think of New Zealand? Do they know who Sir d is.
It's been a huge amount of his life, you know, in Nepal doing all these projects. In fact, he was building a house at one stage before my grandmother died in the region there and yeah, look they know him very very fondly, and they know a lot about New Zealand. I think for a lot of you know, Nepalese people is a great kinship with Kiwis and if you say you come from New Zealand, there'll always be this sort of.
Excitement around it, which is really really wonderful.
I'd love to get over there, but I for one, not that I will be not you know, it won't be in mountaineering, any mountains or anything like that. I'll keep my feet firmly on the ground.
I guess in your view.
Lastly, what would make a more ethical sustainable everest climbing industry? Say if I gave you ten years and an unlimited budget.
Well, I think you know, there's there's the sustainability of you know, getting supplies and equipment up onto the mountain safely. And it's really interesting to see what some of the organizations are doing. Government organizations in Nepal are doing using drone technology to try and get trash off the mountain without having to risk people's lives. So initiatives like that
I think are really exciting. But ultimately I think it's it's really about around building up strength in the industry so that these businesses can essentially make sure that their clients have the skills that they need because that's what's required, and that there is this sort of I guess acceptance of the fact that you have to do your apprenticeship.
You can't just show up without the skills and rely on someone else to look after you and keep you safe, because at the end of the day, those people also need to keep themselves safe for their families. So I think it's about building that sort of that culture and ensuring that the local people have the ability to stand up and actually say say no, you can come back when you've done this and that, and then we'd love to take you up and share this amazing, beautiful mountain with you.
Thanks so much for joining us, Alexander, Thanks so much. That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who all so our editor, I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.