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I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. David Seymour's Treaty Principal's Bill was introduced to Parliament last week, with its first reading debate scheduled for today. The bill has sparked fierce criticism since it was included as part of
National and Acts coalition agreement last year. Protests are expected outside Parliament today, while thousands of March's protesting government policies affecting Moldy crossed the Auckland Harbor Bridge yesterday as part of a hiccoy to Parliament. So, now that we've actually seen the bill, what's in it and what exactly are
the chances of it getting across the line? Today? On the Front Page, NEWSTALKZ that Be Political editor Jason Wolls joins us to discuss one of the most contentious government bills in recent memory. First off, Jason, can you tell me about the Treaty Principle's Bill? What actually is it?
Well, it's an interesting question, and I think that a lot of what is the bill has essentially been a little bit lost in some of the protests around the bill basically it does what it says on the ten or that's what it wants to do, which is clarify the principles of the Treaty of Waypungi in law. Because at the moment the act Party argues, you know, these these principles have never been fully defined in law, and there is so much of New Zealand law that actually
does hinge on what happens around the treaty. So having something that clarifies and really actually gives a bit of a bit more of a firm definition as to what these principles are, they, the act Party argues, is something that would be beneficial to all New Zealanders.
Right, So it seems like the phrase, in particular, in the best interests of everyone is the stickler here, right, Well.
I mean everything is the stickler here, right. I think that the Act Party, they've been on this bill, and we wanted to talk about it for quite some time in me even before it was in the Coalition agreement. And so they will argue that this is not divisive because this is actually certainly that benefits everybody across the country, every New Zealander. Now, of course you've got tea Party Marti,
the Greens, Labor. I mean, look at the way that Luckson talks even maybe National at some stage saying that it is a divisive bill because it does essentially do that create division. But the act Party will, as they have been and continue to do so, have pushed back on that rather strongly.
I think one of my major questions Jason is just as simple, why why is David Seymour pushing for this for so long?
Well, I mean you can be cynical about this, and I will be cynical because it's my job. Is it's all about politics, right? I mean you can say yes, David Seymour definitely believes in this bill, His members believe in this bill, his supporters believe in this bill, and they think that it should become law. But David Seymour knows that it's not going to become law, at least
not in this term of parliament. So you can cynically look at this and say what it's doing is it's almost now a bit of early advertisement for the twenty twenty sixth election. He is looking to make a lot of noise about this bill as to why it's only the act Party are the only ones willing to put a piece of legislation like this before the House. In fact, he's actually throw a National under the bus a little
bit with this in his rhetoric. I mean he said the other day that the National Party aren't prepared to tackle the hard issues. This would be a textbook example
of a hard issue that he's talking about. So he can take this to the next election come twenty twenty six and say it was the ACT Party who the only ones that were actually keen on having a proper debate about this piece of legislation, and that he's hoping that there will be a lot of National Party supporters that will say we'll hang on a second, right, the Nats didn't have the stomach to go after something like this, It was only Acted that did. And there'll be more people,
more voters that that'll flock to the Act Party. Then in turn he can come back and use it as a coalition backstop or a coalition bottom line again and say, well, if whoever I'm in a coalition with has to pass this to the third reading and make it into law. So there is method to what some people have described as David Seymour's madness here.
Yeah, what are the chances of this bill actually gaining legs really none?
Right?
Well, I mean it's not going to pass into it's not going to pass into law. That's almost for certain that this stage. I mean, David Seymour has been quite forthright in his defense of the bill, saying that it's not actually up to the politicians, it's up to the voters. And if voters send the National Party a message saying that we actually do support this bill, then the National Party will be back lickety split and there'll be the one supporting this bill and it'll be progressing into law.
I can't see that happening. Just how full fullheartedly Chris Luxon has nailed his colors to the mask on this one and saying that the Nats have absolutely no business supporting this at the second reading, and the fact that you can listen to how his language has transformed since the bill was first actually brought onto the public debate.
He started off by saying essentially, oh, we'll support it in the first reading, but we're not sure about what's happening in the second reading, or he was a little bit sort of wholehum about what it will support it to the Select Committee and then we'll see what happens after that. And then more and more pressure that was building on him, his language changed to the point where he stood up in the House and was talking about how the National Party won't support this, we don't like it.
We didn't get everything that we wanted when it came to the coalition agreement. Neither did the act Party. And this is just the nature of MMP.
Our view is that we have not supported this bill from the very beginning. We see no need for it. It's not some of the National Party will be supporting from here. So we're going to vote it down in the second reading. And I suspect if the opposition parties do the same and it won't be a law.
So Chris Luxon can't talk a big game like this and then decide that he's going to turn around and support this in second reading. Again, all bets are off when it comes to a new coalition agreement. If the act Party can canvas enough support to get a big chunk of the NAT's voters, they can use this as a coalition bottom line the next time around. But in terms of looking at this term of government, in terms
of looking at the second reading in the House. It's not going anywhere and it will be voted down.
The bill was introduced to Parliament earlier than expected, which has added to the contention around this. Why was it brought forward?
Oh, we don't know. I mean, that's the thing. David Seymour says, things like this is just parliament. Bills move around every once in a while, and he's been very clear that the Waikangi Tribunal were the ones that demanded a date for this bill to be tabled. But that doesn't actually always happen. I mean, things do move around
in Parliament. I mean we never really cover when things are being tabled in the House because it's just something that we as pressed don't really pay that much attention to. We pay attention to the first reading, a little bit,
the second reading and then definitely the third reading. But when a bill is tabled, it's really not all that exciting because when you're a government and you table a bill, we already know that that bill is essentially as good as past because you are the government, you have the votes in the House, and if you introduce a bill, it means that bill is going to be come out the other side of the third reading and it's going to have the votes to get through. Hence why it's
not usually something that we pay attention to. So David Seymore might be right. These things might move around and we just don't really know enough about them and we don't really concentrate enough on that aspect of it. But on the other hand, you know, it's a very contentious piece of legislation. It's timing of which is very newsworthy.
I mean, you've only got to look at the timings of the hikoya across the country to work that one out, and as well as the fact that the Prime Minister and his Deputy Prime Minister, Winston Peters are both going to be out of the country when this bill has its reading.
The latest Waitangi Tribunal report on the policy warned whether the bill was actually enacted or not, its impacts will not fade for a long time. So I guess is that Seymour's main goal here to keep that conversation going because it's not going to get through and he just wants to keep the buzz alive.
I guess the buzz alive. I mean that makes it's a good way of putting it. I mean the buzz in this sense could be very much seen as the Select committee process once. I mean, if you look at the Coalition agreement, it says the National Party will support the treaty's principles through its first reading into the Select Committee process, meaning that it will be looked at by
a Select committee. Select Committee, of course, is a cross party group of MPs that scrutinize legislation to see how they can be improved on, and they take various different public soundings on it as well. It's very common for bills to be submitted on In fact the Press Gallery I'm also the Press Gallery chair as well as zeb's political editor. We are currently submitting on the Parliament Bill because we think that people should be able to oia
parliamentary services. So as part of that submission we go along to the Select Committee and they ask us questions and we respond in kind, and we ask them questions and they respond in kind. It's part of the submission process and it's a cornerstone of New Zealand's democratic process. So some of the concerns from the likes of the Waikongi Tribunal have been that this will just be a vehicle for people that have racist intents to platform them and what they say and use that as a way
of talking down this bill. David Seymour will say that this is an opportunity for people that want the bill and have serious reasons behind why they think it should pass, to have the ability to speak to MPs and the media can come along and listen as well and get those arguments across. So this bill, whether David Seymour likes it or not, and I do think he probably would like it, is going to be on the political agenda for quite some time after the first reading when that comes up later today.
So you've already mentioned this, But the hikoy taking place at the moment, it's not only about the Treaty Principal's Bill, right, So the Hikoy.
Is at its heart a protest against the Treaty Principal's Bill, and that has been evident from the start. However, it is also a vehicle for other people to air their grievances against the government, specifically, I would say to do with Mardi issues. I mean Tipati Marti. One of the things that they've done incredibly well since they've been in Parliament is they've been able to mobilize and activate their base to get out and be very vocal against various
different government policies that they think are anti Mahdi. For example, you know, the changing the names of the various different ministries, not changing the names, just having the English name first and the today or name second rather than the other way around. So there are a bunch of different things that people are protesting about. This will be the main one and the vehicle in which that they will bring
this Hikhoi to Parliament. I would say that if you're looking at all the or the controversial issues that the government has put through or is deciding whether to put through, is this the case with the treaty's principal bill, I would say this is probably the one that has courted the most controversy. So it makes sense that that is the main thrust of the Hikoi when it arrives.
I think you made a really good point there saying that Tapatimordi has done an excellent job of mobilizing their supporters, because they absolutely have. What about on the other end of the spectrum, Is there anybody on the other side of the discussion that is quite vocal about this?
David Seymour is the champion on the other side, and he is alone. He's a long wolf in this fight in terms of the fact that he doesn't have the support of Chris lux and he doesn't have the support of Winston Peters, and there's nobody that's really been standing up to add their support to this bill. But that's okay for David Seymour because that would distract from the fact that is the ACT Party who are the ones
that are pushing this bill through. He wants people to see that it's him and the ACT Party that are ones that are standing up for their rights in terms
of the Treaty's Principals Bill. So he'll be happy with the fact that it's just him because he gets all the attention over this, and he will what he's been doing is he's been talking about the opposition to the bill, but you'll often you'll you'll see as well that he's been almost targeting, well not even almost, he has been targeting the media and talking about the fact that it's
been incredibly biased in its coverage. You can the ACT Party in David Seymour's Facebook and social media pages are littered with what they see as example of media bias. So all he needs to do is just drum up enough anti media supports, drum up enough anti anti party Marti, anti labor support, so all the focus comes back to him, so that his would be supporters would be saying, well, this is our guy for the next election.
So there have been protests, you know across the country.
There's an ecoy that's coming down to Wellington. Is that not a sign that there is division in what the skill is doing.
No, it's a sign that some people oppose it. Actually, they were counted seventeen people outside Parliament and I watched your news look, which was zoomed on one or two people to make it look as though it was bigger than it really was.
You mentioned that this could have a good role on effect, taking some of those National supporters who were on the fence and moving them over to ACT. But what about the opposition parties? Have they benefited from the backlash to the bill at all? Do you reckon that they're going to scoop up some of those act or even labouring Green voters with them not going ahead and not backing David Seymour on this.
They have a different problem on the other side of the political aisle, and that is that if the focus of the Treaty Principal's bill proponents is well and truly David Seymour, the opponents should be the leader of the opposition, which is Chris Hopkins. It's not it's te Pati Marti, it's Debbie Nadi were Packer, and it's an Alki Waitity. And that is because they are so good at the mobilization.
I mean, they're not in the house very often, they neglect that part of the job, but they do get out amongst the country all the time, and that's the way that they communicate to their base. It's a new way of doing things, and I think it's ruffled a few of the sort of the Stormwart's sort of parliamentary figures around here. But the problem with that is that they're the focus here and it means that I think that they're more likely to get votes from this than
the Labor Party will. And you'll remember that at its heart here there is they might look quite close allies, but there is a conflict between Tea Party Marty and the Labor Party. In terms of those seven Marty seats at the moment, six of those are to Tea Party Madi and their vote outside those seats is just about around about three percent. Whereas the Labor Party, yes, they didn't have a very good election result, but they lost all of those Marty seats bar one that was held
by Auti Waitity in the twenty twenty election. So there is a bit of a battle between them going on because without those seven seats, or without any of those seats, Tea Party Marty wouldn't be in Parliament and Labor desperately wants them back, and at this stage Tea Party Marty is probably going to win. They might even get a clean suite, and they know that it's because of issues like this that they are able to do a lot better at than the Labor Party.
Thanks for joining us, Jason, no problem at all. That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzied Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills Richard Martin as sound engineer slash producer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines,