Kiyota.
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast.
Presented by The New Zealand Herald.
Debbie Nauda Packer is known for unapologetically fighting for the rights of Maldi. The co leader of Tepati Maldi never shies away from speaking her mind, especially when it comes to social and climate justice. Since becoming co leader in twenty twenty, she's been suspended from Parliament and criticized the coalition's intent to dismantle indigenous rights. At the last election, Tapati Maori won six electorate seats, its best result yet.
Today on the Front Page, Debbie Nadoua Packa is with us to take us through how the party is gearing up for election twenty twenty six and how they'll appeal to the masses, or if they even.
Want to so.
Debbie, you've obviously been critical of the government's approach to Maldi rights and treaty obligations. What do you see is the most urgent challenges facing Malti under the current government.
Yeah, I think immediately what we have is a real challenge to democracy. Obviously, I've been really open about the iniquities that this government refuses to address such than health and education. But I think there's also a major trust issue that I don't think this government is ever certainly this Prime Minister is ever going to be able to resolve.
And that's the way that this government has just come out and attacked Maori, every other minority and an important person that makes up the fabric of alty at all.
Obviously, election day for the Tamiki Makodo by election is this Saturday, September six. We did an episode the other week about it where vic UNI Associate Professor Lara Greeves told us that it's basically a race to the finish line between Laboring to Batti Mali. You've got Bernie Hannada and Areni Kaipra.
We know it.
It was quite a tight contest in twenty twenty three. How is it looking now this year this time around?
Yeah, I think I'm coming into the bi election as some real concerning issues which I think affect the whole of Old head Or and that is the fact that we have round about nine eight hundred Maori on a dormant list and if that's not resolved by twenty twenty six, we effectively have then removed from being able to participate
in democracy. So we've come into a by election where there are trust issues with the Electoral Commission, where we have not received confidence and assurance that the dormant list that keeps growing for Maori voters has been addressed. So you know that then means the scenario that we're dealing with is really.
Really contentious. For whoever are the candidates.
I think, you know, when we come into the desire, the desire of the people, I'm in Tomachy Macota at the moment, and it is about, you know, do we trust as Maori, you know, a person who's been a career politician eighteen years plus, in fact been an ex minister, or do we trust someone who's well no one has been a part of detraumatizing community and has shown her faciness. And I think that's really what it's coming down to her.
And I know, you know, we've got a person who reputes himself on his history, who you know, tried to legislate out all during during his tenure, who was missing in action during COVID response for Mary, who allowed a Malori vaccine rollout to happen without Mali input, and in fact we had to stand up so I think, you know, again, we've got real trust issues and is you're going to do enough for the sense of urgency that Maori haves. So, you know, I think it will come down to the line.
It will be who decides that actually we need to they even want to participate, given the trust isses we have with governments. But yeah, it's I am getting a real sense of the pain and the hurt and the betrayal from this government requires someone who's going to be different than what we've had from either settler parties or legacy parties, whichever they are called.
What would a win for TO Party Maori and already mean heading into the election next year, do you think.
Oh, I think, you know, for TO Party Mario. You know, it's really critical for us. We had the mandate and yes, yes you said it was. It was really tight, but it was a mandate that was growing despite the fact us having a really unwell you know, unwell MP and what we've seen and had connected with us as record numbers at a lot of the events, we had record numbers at the participation of who the selection process was
going to be. So it's going to mean that we continue to have that voice and that voice, that's that's pushing one hundred percent for Mali to be seen and heard, particularly in an environment where we see our voices have been pushed back and our co propper, whether it be Final Order, Malori health, have all.
Been pushed back.
So I think it's really important for us that we continue to have somebody that's going to protect Tommy and Macota and protect the energy of what it is. But you know what else, it sort of sounds all doom
and gloom. We've also seen a whole lot of positivity and a whole of solutions coming forward, and so we want another voice here that's going to push our wealth text, that's going to push our you know, our housing policy, that's going to push it our people no longer become homeless and can afford to have a house, you know, a roof over the heads and food on the table. So I think that's you know, that's a really important
part of keeping this voice. But I know, you know, in an unapologetic party party, Marian, I think the thing is that you know, what we've seen when we sawt from the heir Cooys is that we're not a party that is for one hundred percent Maori focused, Mali inequities focused, but we're also one hundred and fifty percent altied or everyone focused. I think that's the climate that people want, is transformational change, but someone who peeps us all together and united, and that's what we stand for.
That's what that voice is so important of here.
If we do look forward to the twenty twenty six general election, I mean, I know that historically to Bartimori has focused on Maori seats, of course, but in terms of the Haircuois and that show of support that you saw from wider New Zealand, would would the party be open to perhaps going beyond its traditional vote base or do you even want to do that? Yeah?
Of course, I mean I think, I mean what we want to do is have a nation that respects everyone's that respects everyone's uniqueness, diversity, that comes together and makes
us an amazing nation that it is. That's what represents and what we've seen you without any doubt, have we saught on the treaty principal submissions and we've actually seen the Regultory Standards Bill a record ninety eight percent of opposing the division that we've seen, you know, rolling out of this sort of really hateful government and so absolutely, and I think we will continue to be Obviously we're in an indigenous led and Tongue Ta pheneral party, but
that was never about living alone. We were always united in our fight against c big mining. We're united in our fight against you know, making sure that we can give good jobs, good homes and good lives, good education system for our people.
That's what Tetanditi promises.
So yeah, yeah, we're absolutely, always has been focused and we and we use that terminology alter at our home. And I think you know, what we've had to contend with is a rhetoric of you know, brothers they're extreme, the others, Well, yeah, we are extremely optimistic, we are extremely altered or eccentric, and if we were to look at our values, everything about it is actually bringing the balance back into life and the restorative manner approach for everybody.
So yeah, absolutely, and we've got to continue to be open. Like you know, I'm the second generation of party. Mighty goodness knows what the next generation now ongoing. We're under a twenty year old party. So as a movement, we're still, yes, still growing us and it's a really humbling place and exciting place to be.
In because we fight to be the best time at the Fender weekend that old Eor deserves. Doesn't mean that we're anting anybody as absolutely not. When you wanted to blow up things in Pacific, you know, People's Ministry for Pacific Keepers, all those types of you've never heard that from us once.
What would you say to an undecided a Parkih voter, I suppose do you think there's a misconception that you will only look after Mali?
I think there is, and it's just so, And I think actually it's a narrative that's been deliberately designed. But I always think that actions speak louder than words. And you know, for an example, Rawi and I found a water wipe data a lot of the heart of to party Maori where showed our actions during COVID.
We looked after everyone. We looked after the whole community.
And while we were all doing that together, we took the weight of the public health system and off the hospital so it could focus on those who needed that acute care. We fed everyone, We communicated at all levels to everyone, and I bet you couldn't find a single person in to Taihwa to Electric that said. We didn't tune up for a whole community that we didn't turn up for his whole community. Final order didn't deliver to its whole community. We can't be a nation that's divided
and hateful, that leaves people behind. And what we've seen, sadly is, you know, women have been expendable. We've seen our disabled tiku of the whole community left behind. It's just not a narrative, but I do see continuously and I guess the first half of this year also we've.
Been pushing back and refusing to comply.
With the speaker, with the way that we've seen the House, you know, act disproportionately and unfear to us as an Indigenous League party. So yeah, like I said, I can see where that narrative comes from. But our actions completely say the opposite. The Hequoi shows we're completely the opposite. Our support for other people of Palestine, our support for environmental issues, our support for everyone being well completely shows
the opposite. So I think it's you know, we we want to look after all workers in all New Zealanders and what we want is for everyone to be given a fair chance to live well, not just the two percent to more than fifty percent of the wealth of old ted Le or so like to Party Kakaiki, who we get on really well with. We have a wealth tax, and our wealth tax is not about being rich envy, It's actually about it let's just distribute the wealth and
have a tax system that's fair for all. So yeah, and we don't get to talk about those things a lot because the media normally wants to hear the drama of what we're doing.
So yeah, and I think that's good.
Yeah, I know, And I think I think that's because you know, we just keep getting cornered in some of these politics. But the reality is, you listen to Hannah and the contribution she makes to education and in the progress that she's proposing. I think we're a really progressive movement and we're really really proud to be staunchly side by side with to Party cr cutter Key as well.
So I think two of us know what we're doing.
Why do you think some people are so hell bent on disregarding the basic fact that Maldi and Pacifica face different health outcomes than Parki ha on the podcast when I said that, said just that there are worse outcomes for Maldi and pacifica David Seymour said this, You've also.
Said that your preferred lens for partitioning human beings is race. Actually, there are differences between rich and poor. There are differences based on education. There are differences based on whether people choose to spoke serrits. There are differences based on dietary There are so many different ways that you can categorize people. I just reject choosing one which is quite clumsy, quite nicky, and doesn't actually get us to target the people in greatest need.
Now a lot to unpack there, But what would you say to people who think that everyone should be treated I suppose equally is his argument.
I think the whole debate and the fundamental difference between the likes of us and ACT is that we don't deny our history. We don't deny that we have an equities. We don't deny that we've all arrived to today with different with different parts of who and what makes us up. And that's the biggest debate that we're having is we have a politician like David Seymour who's pretending that we have we wipe out the history, for example of colonization, we wipe out the history of two or three generations
of trauma. We wipe out the history of the weight that it takes to break the cycle of deficit thinking, to break the cycle of poverty, to break the cycle of being able to feel at one with the rest of your community. That is a bigger systemic issue that the refusing to accept, which effectively says, but like the treaty, colonization never happened.
The treaty never happened.
In fact, Maldi pacifica, and not just us, woman and not just women those who are disabled.
Buckle up. We all are treated the same.
And the reality is you and I know an everyday basis that that's not the fact at all. So I also think equity costs, and there has been a real cost equation put to us. And we thought David was really outspoken during a COVID and so was Judith Collins. Oh you know this is this is not as costing us. Marty shouldn't have their own vaccine thing. Marty shouldn't have Well, actually, we live collectively when when a lot of Western cultures don't.
We have a different way of communicating. And I think what we've seen sadly is a politician who really just doesn't respect the fact that there were people here. We have rights as everyone does. Those are indigenous rights which are captured in ten tnty, which is why he's attacking
ten Tarnty. I think the other thing is because equity costs, and nobody wants to invest in that when they prefer to have you know, exploitation, corporate exploitation, atlas agendas coming through, whatever you want to call it, whether you accept that or not. We have a different approach, and we believe in investing in equity and doing a target approach to addressing inequities and let us get on and do it once for all and get us all to a stage
where we can live equally. And I think that's the fundamental difference between us all is we don't deny our history. It made us who we are from Tatanaki advantage by the resilience that my ancestors are sent you gave to me through everything they endured. But that doesn't mean that I'm prepared to wipe out what they went through. So yeah, and I think it's just a moment in time. I do think that you can see it now, young ones Mali non Mali tongue to Titi, tongue to mourner, whatever
you want to label yourself. There is a general acceptance, a social justice acceptance that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and we want to live in peace.
It's just we've got.
Some're a young country with the last of the countries that were colonize, so we've got a little bit of growth to go through and we'll get there.
It's just a bit tough at the moment.
And lastly, if there's one thing that you could change tomorrow, what would it be?
Are really easy?
I would first of all, resource and invest hugely in the program of Martiquiemai as an educational copaper for us as a nation, and invest time in what would transformational change be and look like. And that is a growing up program and conversation. I think it's exciting. It happened
in the past. It's had more than ten thousand people at fifteen thousand people contribute to it at Verrey in phases, and I think that the world could see how we map out our being together, our social cohesion as an indigenous led.
Nation, a proud nation of Mardi and a nation that's you know.
It's because Once we do that in trench collectively with Idle Heart, then that sets the theme for everything we do with each other.
Your rights and my rights both matter.
Your rights and my rights to look after our nation are just as important. But until we accept each other's rights, we're just going to continue to sort of go down this FORR. Sad Lane that I think only a few are saying. And the evidences and he called the evidences and the truly principal skill the evidences in the regulatory standard schill and they get a lot of airtime, but I think these are That's what I would do.
Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime.
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at NZADHERLD, dot co, dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniel. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.