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I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Concerns have been raised on opposite ends of the planet this week on foreign interference from Iran. Donald Trump's election campaign has claimed that Iran has hacked its internal messages, leaking election campaign documents to US media. At the same time, Australia's spyboss has claimed that Iran is one of at least
three or four countries involved in foreign interference. This may seem like an issue happening beyond US shores, but academics and officials have been warning for years that foreign interference is happening here. Today on the front Page, University of Otago Professor of Politics Robert Patman joins us to discuss how worried New Zealand should be. Robert, what do you make of Australia coming out and stating bluntly that multiple countries are involved in foreign interference there?
I can't be too shocked by that, because we have to be honest about this. Many countries spy on each other, including countries which are friendly with each other. That was certainly the case during the Cold war, and it's certainly the case in the post Cold War era. And in a sense, you know, when we talk about spying, we're really talking about a form of foreign interference. So what
is foreign interference? It really refers to a situation where an external state departs from the normal patterns of relations and attempts to impose its will directly or indirectly within a nation which is often seen as being weaker, in order to achieve some diplomatic, political, moral, or strategic objectives. So that, in a nutshell, is what foreign interference is, and I'm afraid it goes on quite regularly in international relations.
Yeah, there's spy agency said that diaspora communities are being threatened and intimidated. First off, what are those communities? What does that mean? And why do you think they're being targeted?
Diaspora communities refers to those communities located, for example, in
New Zealand. They may be Chinese, they may be Iranian, which there are attempts to influence them which go beyond normal diplomatic channels by outside interested And in the two examples I've given authoritarian states which are China and Iran, And certainly there's been some concern expressed by the New Zealand sis that China is one of the countries which is trying to influence communities of Chinese origin in this country.
Director General of Security of Australia Mike Burgess said, and I quote some of them would surprise you, and some of them are also our friends.
Spy Chief Mike Burgess has worn three or four friendly nations have been involved in foreign interference in Australia. The AZO Director General claims they're meddling in diaspora communities, which are ethnic groups who no longer live in their home country. Iran is involved, but the other nations have not been named.
What do you make of that?
I think Mike Burgess is referring to the fact that spying comes from many different quarters, and referring to the fact that in a sense, we shouldn't be surprised that authoritarian states, which may have good relations with liberal democracies, nevertheless result to what we would call spying or foreign interference. The reason being is that for an authoritarian state, if we put ourselves in their shoes, they haven't really got
an attractive political model. That is to say, they can't exert influence through legitimate means, no one's really queuing up to emulate the one party state in New Zealand. Few New Zealand, whatever their qualms about our democracy, see China's one party state or Russia's Putin regime as attractive alternatives, and the same goes for the clerical regime in Iran. So given that reality that many authoritarian states are short of tools to influence opinion legitimately, they often resort to
covert means. And one way of, if you like, trying to influence societies is through despora communities, and that certainly is the case I think. Mike Burgess also referred to the fact that friendly countries or countries which share our
political values, also engage in foreign interference. One of the most I suppose important examples in New Zealand's history was the case when two French intelligence agents in nineteen eighty five were responsible for sinking the Greenpeace ship the Rainbow Warrior, at the port of Auckland, which was going to pot in a protest against a planned French nuclear deal at Morella, and in the process a photographer was killed on the ship.
The second explosion trapped Fernando Perrier. You drown. At first, nobody was sure what had caused the huge blasts, nor if anyone was missing. By dawn, police have proof the explosions were no accident, and New Zealand's first case of terrorism quickly becomes its biggest ever inquiry.
President Mitterrand's government was subsequently obliged to publicly apologize for this act of state sponsored terrorism and paid reparations to New Zealand and the family of the photographer killed, as well as Greenpeace. So you can get if you like, foreign interference, spying, covert activities from friends as well as countries which we may be more suspicious of, which don't share our political values.
Now Australia is obviously our closest neighbor, How likely is it that being targeted as well?
Now that way, I think.
That's tiny lightly given the intensification of superpower rivalry involving China and the United States, which has really significantly increased in the last decade, and both China and the United States are hoping to influence Australia and New Zealand indirections that they see as good outcomes. What is more, one of the reasons New Zealand, as well as Australia have become targets is because of our geographical location in the
Indo Pacific region. The Indo Pacific has emerged as the most dynamic region in the world and a major driver of global politics. Why do we say that, Because the Indo Pacific, our neighborhood, contains more than fifty percent of the world's population and is home to some of the world's fastest growing economies, including China, Vietnam and India. So in a sense, our location has become, if you like,
the center of gravity and glowelobal politics. And of course it's a target for a country like China, which is located within the Indo Pacific, and also the United States, which has a strong Pacific connection. Both of these countries want to present themselves as the political model for the rest of the world to follow, and naturally they're deeply engaged in trying to influence that region. I think there's
another factor which is probably distinctive to New Zealand. It's not just out surrounding location which makes New Zealand a target. I think New Zealand's international profile. Chelsea has significantly increased in the last ten years. The response of the Jasindra Duan government to the twenty nineteen christ Church terrotrocity, and also the way the government effectively handled the COVID nineteen pandemic. I think captured international attention and certainly I think change
international perceptions to some degree of New Zealand increasingly. Although we often see ourselves as a small country or a small state, I think others often see New Zealand as a minor power, a country which is relatively small or modest in size, but nevertheless quite influential internationally and often seen as a good international citizen. That in turn, the fact that New Zine's profile has grown will also be if you're like a source of attraction for ambitious outside power.
So being friends with the New Zealand being friends with us will get you a bit better pr on the world map.
Being friends with US is seen as a potentially positive thing. This country has very close people to people relations with the Pacific Island States, and that's a region which has also been subject to increasing geopolitical rivalry between China, New Zealand's largest trading partner, and the United States and its allies. So in a sense, New Zealand's connections, particularly its close connections with the Pacific Island states also mean that it's
a target. So, just to recap, New Zealand has grown in terms of its international profile and reputation, but in addition, as rivalry intensifies around the Pacific Island States between the United States and China, New Zealand in their eyes, becomes more important.
A report last year pointed the finger at China for foreign interference here.
It's prompted calls for an inquiry from a group of MPs from all sides of Parliament called the inter Parliamentary Alliance on China. In a letter to the Foreign Affairs and Trades Select Committee, the group wrote the Committee will be aware of recent reports where serious allegations of kidnap, assault and harassment were raised. There has been the widely reported hacking of Parliament's own computer systems, and several MPs and an academic also target it.
When we are so alive, mined with China often framed as a detriment to us. Why would they be trying to interfere? Is it because of our position in the Indo Pacific?
Yes, I'm not sure we're aligned with China. China's our biggest trade partner in economic terms, it's the number one destination for our exports. But we're not politically aligned with China, and we are not prepared for economic reasons to dumb down our commitment to democracy or human rights. So in a sense, there are limits to how politically close the two countries can become. We have a very different worldview
from China and a very different political system. So I mean, I think it's an important point to establish, why would China seek to if you influence what has been a close trading partner for it For the reasons we've gone through, China's very interested in the Pacific Island States and would like, I think, to influence the direction of New Zealand's policy.
And also, since twenty twenty one, since the formation of an Enhanced Security partnership called ORCUS, which involves the United States, the UK and Australia, China has become, in its own words, increasingly gravely concerned. These words that were used by the Chinese ambassador to this country about New Zeine's potential for
joining what's called Pillar two of ORCUS. I should explain that this enhanced security arrangement between three English speaking countries, we're not a member of it at the moment, but we're considering becoming an associate member or a partial member. And it consists of two key elements. One is the
transfer of nuclear power submarines to Australia. The second key element, which we're interested in possibly joining, we haven't made a definite decision yet, is the component, which involves sharing state of the art defense technology. China is very keen or is it indicated it does not want New Zealand to join the Aucus arrangement? Why? Because AUCUS is primarily designed to deter China and to contain China, and so China quite naturally would rather that New Zealand doesn't join it.
There are also reports that Iran and Russia are interfering here. Is that perhaps not surprising given the tensions around the world.
It's not surprising given the fact that New Zealand, if you take the case of Russia, New Zealand has been very clear in its support for the Ukrainian government's attempt to reverse the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia in
February twenty twenty two. Now that attempt at annexation has not yet succeeded, Russia controls about twenty percent of the territory of Ukraine, which is completely illegal under international law, and New Zealand quite rightly has a big stake in doing its best to ensure that Ukraine is successful in defeating this attempted invasion of its country. After all, we trade with more than one hundred countries around the world. We depend on what's called a rules based international order.
That is, we like international relations to be done according to established rules, laws and norms rather than being sort of free for all based on power. So we have a big state and that would mean in turn that Russia may have an incentive to engage in interference to try to influence things in this country. With respect to Iran, we are one of the countries that is engaged. I think we sent a deployment of six NZDF personnel there
are all intelligence officers. The decision was made in January of this year to participate in a US led coalition which is seeking to counter the illegal tax on civilian shipping in the Red Sea by Hooti rebels which are aligned to Iran. So from Iran's point of view, that may be a reason that they've become discontented with the direction of New Zealand's foreign policy, it may be seen as contrary or aligned in a way which is seen
as potentially provocative to Iranian decision makers. So sometimes foreign interference happens anyway, even between friendly countries, and sometimes it's motivated by trying to influence or change the direction of a country's foreign policy.
We're sending our defense force personnel following a request.
We were asked by our American partners whether we were consider sending us some support there that who.
They attacks are in response to the ongoing war and Gaza. But our Prime Minister doesn't believe our military action against the Huthies should be LinkedIn anyways the atrocities in Gaza.
I have to say to you, I think you are absolutely wrong to conflate those two issues.
Do you think New Zealand is capable of combating interference?
Oh?
Yes, I mean, you know, we've got to keep this in perspective in the sense you know, New Zealand has many strengths. It's got an open, pretty honest, transparent liberal democracy.
We are consistently ranked in the top three of the world as being the most honest countries in the world according to Transparency International and that of course makes us slightly vulnerable to interference by authoritarian states which don't hesitate, of course, to use the freedoms of this country to project their interest when we cannot do the same in their societies. So it's a sort of one way advantage which they seek to exploit, and they certainly get involved
in our social filia. But there are ways in which New Zealand can, if you like, enhance its situation. I think first of all, New Zealand needs to clearly signal that it's going to end it's under investment in the what I call the defense sector of this country. On average, in the last two decades we spent about one percent of GDP on defense and intelligence. I think that needs to be boosted to about one point seven percent, and
it needs to be done quite quickly. That would be a statement of intent that we're not only a liberal tolerance society, but we're quite prepared to invest to ensure that it remains that way. I think also there are other things we can do through diplomacy that helps to make us, if you're like, less vulnerable to foreign interference.
We've already mentioned one which the government has been doing, which is recognizing the strategic linkage between helping defeat Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine and also deterring Chinese assertiveness in the Indo Pacific. See, there is a strategic connection there which many people miss. Many people look at the Battle of Ukraine and say, ah, it's so far away from us. We really empathize with the Ukrainians, but it's too far
away from us. Actually, two of the key players in the Ukraine War which are tacitly indirectly helping Russia well in our neighborhood Indo Pacific. One is China, which is providing indirect assistance to Russia, and the second is India, another country we want to free trade with. Now, if we want to send a clear message to both China and India for their ambiguity and indeed support for the Putin's regimes invasion of Ukraine, then we need to do
what we can to support Ukraine. That sends a clear message. I mean, make no mistake about it. If Putin fails in Ukraine, and I don't think that can be ruled out, that will register quite significantly in Beijing, and it will
send the message. I think that China will have to be much less assertive on the international stage, particularly in relation to Taiwan, because the country which has tacitly supported has failed through the If you like the assertion of power, and I think it's also important that New Zealand sends a message to allies which are undermining the fabric of
the international rules based order. It's important, for example, that New Zealand speak out when allies like the United States are complicited in the undermining of international law in barbaric conflicts such as in Gaza, where close to forty thousand Palestinians have died, and at least fifteen thousand of those Palestinians have been children, which by definition have nothing to do with the original Hamas attack on the seventh of
October which prompted this massive and disproportionate response from Israel.
Thanks for joining us, Robert. That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzet Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.