Kielder. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A New Zealand citizen and her son have been detained by Ice in the US. Sarah Show and her six year old son were detained at the Canadian border after she drove her two eldest children to a Vancouver airport for a flight to New Zealand to visit their grandparents. The pair are currently sitting in a detention facility in Texas. They are two of tens of thousands of people who
are currently being detained by the agency. Most do not have a criminal conviction and are classified as being no threat to society. Today on the Front Page, American immigration lawyer Minda Thorwood, who was representing the Kiwi being detec is with us to discuss Sarah's case and the wider issues around US immigration. Linda tell me about Sarah's case, how did she and her young son end up in a detention center in Texas?
So she made an error like it was kind of an administrative error. She has a pending petition and also along with the petition, an application to adjust her status to permanent residency here, and along with that application, she has the right to work and also travel and return. And so in that situation, a combo card is issued that is used both as a work permit and as
a travel document. And when she renewed her travel document back in March, she didn't choose to renew her work permit because she had no travel plans at that time. But when she got her receipt three months later in June extending the card, mistakenly believe that it also extended her travel document, and so she took her child to her children to Canada so that they could fly direct to New Zealand to see their grandparents, and then on
her way back in you know, she was detained. She was not permitted to enter because she didn't have a valid travel document.
Yeah, I've read that some protocols weren't followed through, like they weren't put into some kind of tracking system for a couple of weeks. Can you explain what that is to me?
I think probably what you're referring to is the ICE detaining locator system, And what's supposed to happen is that when a person is detained by ICE, their information is immediately uploaded to a system based on their alien registration number so that their lawyers and their family can find where they're detained and also you know, contact the facility arranged for local council if needed, that kind of thing, and they were not put into that system. And we've
been seeing that more and more. Actually a lot of folks who are being detained or not put in the system because it is you know, a system of accountability, and I think that's something the administration is not looking to do.
Well.
That sounds terrifying that she hasn't spoken to her family or her children and they have literally no idea where she is.
I mean she called me right away, so you know, I knew, you know, the day after she was detained where she was. And she's also been in touch with another friend so she can call out. But had she not been able to do that, like, had she not you know, money to put on a phone account, we would not have been able to find her. So and yes, it is very stressful and very terrifying.
So what are the next steps now?
So now we're we're waiting for USCIS to adjudicate her petition. I've filed a Van Dama's complaint. There was an interview today and we're just waiting to find out what happens, and then from there it's kind of going to be up to DHS in a lot of ways. So once the petition is approved, she's eligible to adjust her status
to become a permanent resident. She's still eligible. That hasn't changed, and so the question is whether she'd be doing that before a judge an immigration court, or doing that affirmatively before cis if her proceedings are terminated and her son, you know, he has a travel document, so he's he can, he's admissible. There's no reason that he should be in attention.
It's unlawful, and nor should he be in a rule of proceedings because he was authorized to travel and come back and has a valid pending adjustment application as well.
And how long could all those take.
It's I mean, I'm hoping the petition is adjudicated the next couple of weeks. I really can't say. I really don't know, and then beyond that, it's really uncertain she could I mean hopefully. I mean, if all things go exceptionally fast, i'd say it all taken care of within a few months. But I mean people are in rural proceedings for years and years. I don't think that's going to happen here because of so much pressure from elected
representatives and so much media attention. But it is something that does happen well.
And the fact of the matter is not everyone has the luxury, like you said, even to have money to put on a phone card, to be able to call the lawyer or the media. Attention or of her place of work. I think has been really vocal as well.
She's got a groundswell of support here for sure.
And too here in New Zealand, we often hear about these things. We hear about stories of tourists getting detained. For example, we see videos of people being plucked off of the street. Is there a real threat of this happening to Kiwis who may be traveling in the US?
Yeah, I mean I think there's a real threat to anyone, unfortunately, anyone. I think the threat is much greater for people who are not white, unfortunately. I think that's a very sad thing to say in twenty twenty five in the United States,
but that is that is a true statement. But I mean, I think there's going to be a lot more draconian enforcement of just people who are overseeing their be visas, even innocently, you know, just I'm you know, somebody's here on vacation and having a good time, and maybe they're young and they're not paying attention. Like there's just going to be some really you know, just like I said, d'arconian enforcement happening.
Your Secretary of State says everyone who's here, citizens and non citizens, deserve to process. Do you agree, mister, I don't know.
I'm not a lawyer.
I don't know.
Well, the Fifth Amendment, I don't know.
It seems it might say that, But if you're talking about that, then we'd have to have a million or two million, or three million trials. We have thousands of people that are some murderers and some drug dealers and some of the worst people on earth, but some of the worst, most dangerous people on earth. And I was elected to get them the hell out of here, and the courts are holding me from doing it.
But even given those numbers that you're talking about, don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as present?
I don't know.
What advice do you have for people who may get picked up by an ICE officer, for example, what are your rights?
So you do have a right to contact a lawyer. You do have a right to be represented by a lawyer at your own expense. So it's not like a criminal case where you would be provided representation by the government. You have to pay for it yourself. But you do have those rights, and I mean there are other rights as well. You know, I would say if it's possible
to remain silent. People are really bullied into admitting things to law enforcement when they actually should should say, like, you know, I unless there are US citizen and they're just trying to assert that right. You know, I have a US citizen, don't attain me. Everyone else if there are immigration status is uncertain or they don't they're afraid, then just say I want to speak to earlier and that's it.
Do you think ICE has gone too far in its enforcement of immigration laws in the US?
Oh?
Absolutely, it has absolutely gone too far. I mean, nobody wants to live in a police state.
You know.
I mean that is what has been so wonderful about the US. You know, we've been a beacon of democracy for a long time, and that is unfortunately not in danger. We are seeing an assault on democracy and solid the rule of law, on ice officers detaining US citizens and just you know, anyone who has brown skin or an accent. I mean, they really are going too far.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But Trump said that he wanted to deport the worst of the worst, and presumably that meant people with serious criminal convictions. But I read a statistic just from last month showing that seventy two percent of people detained have in fact no criminal convictions.
I mean, I can't verify that statistic, but that sounds right to me. I mean, Trump has been Trump has said a lot of things, and much of it has not been true. And you know, he's not just going after criminals. He's going after everyday people who are just hard working people who just don't happen to not have the right documents. And that's it. That's the only thing they've done is exist in the US without the right papers. And it's really unfortunate and just really, I just I
find I'm horrified by it. Helt to be honest. I mean, I practice immigration law for the first ROMP administration, and this is just ten times worse, or maybe even a thousand times worse.
Yeah, I saw that the White House gave the agency a quota of three thousand arrests a day, and that's up from six hundred and fifty in the first five months of Trump's second term. Arrests obviously have shot up, But is there a fear that with a quota, I guess comes that added pressure on agents therefore problematic enforcement.
I mean, and that's exactly what's happening. People are trying to meet their quotas, and so they're not just attaining criminals like there the worst of the worst. They're detaining anybody just so they can meet their quota. And I think what ends up happening is that when you have a quota based system that's focused on numbers instead of on people, is that you end up dehumanizing the people that are being detained. You don't see that person as a person with a family and a job and a
community here. You see them as just, oh, the thirty seventh percent that I rounded up today, we're a thirty seventh alien, you know, like we don't even don't use the term person. They don't see them as people. They just see them as you know, interlopers. And that's just not true. These people are all part of our communities and they have rights that we should honor.
You can see an agent using a large hammer to break the back passenger window of their car. Mary Lou said the agents were focused on her husband Wan, but kept calling in Antonio. That's the name of another man who lives in their building. Thinking this is a case of mistaken identity, Wan called his attorney, who told them to stay in the car until she got there. But instead of waiting for their lawyer, the agent smashed the car window, broke into the vehicle, and dragged the couple out.
They had no reason to detain him.
We've been following the rules of this country.
We're doing things the right way.
That's why we have a lawyer.
Right, they're trying to do things the right way. We have an assilent process in place. Well, it is not perfect. I don't think a key step in it is dice smashes your car with a hammer while screaming someone else's name at you.
As an immigration lawyer, I'm assuming that you're very, very busy, so thank you for your time, but also, can you tell me about a case that sticks out to you, perhaps of something like this happening to someone.
I mean, I stopped doing detained work around the pandemic for the most part, just simply because I'm a single parent. I just really didn't have the bandwidth for it anymore, although I still do a lot of non deteen rule defense. But you know, and the people that I was representing previously, some of them did have some serious criminal issues, but a lot of them also had just like mental health issues or addiction issues that were kind of tangled up in all of it. So it was a very complicated
area of immigration law. And I did represent somebody this is not really a similar case, but you know, I had somebody that I my very first rid of hebeas
corpus petition that I litergated. The person had been detained for seven years and immigration attention and mostly because they were mentally ill, they had some mental health issues, and they were just found to be dangerous based on that, even though it was you know, they weren't, and so we ended up they're getting that and getting them released. But I do see there is quite a bit of unlawfuled attention that does happen.
Of course, because New Zealand is so far away, we do see some real horror stories on the news about what's happening there in America. But also I was thinking about this this morning, about those stories of communities rallying behind their neighbors, so to speak. So their neighbor might be an immigrant, and you've got communities saying, well, you're not taking them unless you take me. So there's some real stories of community spirit and some really nice glimpses of hope.
I suppose, I mean, I would venture that most of the US. I mean, even the statistics show that most of the US does not support Trump's immigration policies. We do not want our neighbors to be scooped up and detained. We don't want families ripped apart, we don't want kids in cages. Like none of us actually want that. The people that want that are a very small percentage of Americans.
And so it has been really heartening to see so much resistance to these policies, to see these communities rallying around their community members who are being targeted.
In your eyes, what needs to happen tomorrow, if you had a magic wand to a leading in the situation.
So many things. But if we're talking about miss jall I would just you know, want her release from detention and her rule proceedings terminated and for her to continue on the process that she was already you know, undertaking. So that's that's what I would do if I had a magic wand, And I would also just end the enforcement policy of the Trump administration as well. Altogether.
Thank you for joining us, minda.
Welcome, thanks for having me.
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who's also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.