Days 27 - 29: Email highlights Hanna's work stress as witnesses weigh in on her mental health

Kiota, I'm Chelsea Daniels and from the team behind the front page. The New Zealand Herald's daily news podcast, This is Accused The Polkinghorn trial over a series of weeks, in conjunction with our usual daily episodes, will be bringing you regular coverage as one of the most high profile trials of the year makes its way through the High Court at Auckland. A warning, this podcast contains disturbing content. Originally due to run for six weeks, the trial of

So, as you know, doctor Kellix have been reported and has report that death was as a result of neck compression, and so doctor Sage was being asked for it might be vague or could that be criticized as being vague?

I think was the point. What's your response to that?

Well, I agree with the way his.

Summarize it, which is it neither he nor doctor Kelak prepared to say what sort of neck compassion, So they.

Leave either.

Suicidal hanging or homicidal ligature manual strangulation open.

As possibilities.

So as we've already said, I think my view is that it's reasonable, and it's.

My view to go a bit further.

And what would you what would you say.

The cause of dempos the finding support hanging and there's no findings just support homicidal ligature or manual strangulation. And that's the way we approach all the hangings that we deal with.

So that's what I think a reasonable to part here is.

Mansfield then asked Cordner about several parts of the case that are considered suspicious. Cordner said, there isn't anything suspicious about the ligature not circling the entire neck, nor is there anything unusual about the scene being tampered with.

One for the question I have for you, and it might be about a leab apparent already if you were responsible for this case by way of the attending pathologist, how would you have reported the cause of death?

I think.

If I had been responsible for this case, would have concluded that because of death was hanging, because the findings fit with hanging and there are no findings to support the alternative of homicidal ligature or manual strangulation.

And yeah, what do you think about the absence of those injuries, meaning it needs to be left open?

Well, if we added into that where you've you know that somehow you've you know, we've had the discussion abat the absence of findings and whether that might be compatible

It was then Auckland Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock's turn to begin her cross examination of Professor Stephen Cordner. Cordner said that his answers are grounded in forensic pathology, and he can't answer on factors such as if Hannah was suicidal the night before her death. Cordner confirms he knows doctor Sage. McClintock asked if Sage is the leading forensic pathologist together with doctor Simon Stables.

Oh.

Look, I said in my report that you know, I think everybody involved is providing their professional evidence and advice and contribution, so you know, perfectly for people to have different point of view and other people will work out which point of view.

Is preferred, of course, And I think doctor Sage told us that he's seen eleven I think hangings this year in.

Something like eight hundred overall.

So he's seeing this in his daily practice, including at current point and time. And that's your understanding of his his He's.

A very experienced fantic pathologist.

Yes, and so really it reduces to a narrowish I guess, although important issue is the extent to which the pathology can truly help on the distinction between whether this case involves homicidal net compression or suicidal net compression.

Again, that's the number of the thing.

Isn't it that.

Yes, I've said that.

Before mcclentock and Corner went back and forth a two centimeter bruise on Hannah's temple. Cordner said earlier it was a non specific injury that could have occurred anytime in the twenty four hours before death, McClintock said. Cordner said earlier the bruise could be the result of a fall into something, but a punch or other manual blow can't be excluded. But McClintock said there's nothing to positively suggest a full versus a punch, hence the conclusion non specific injury,

He used the term trivial, I think in relation to other injuries. So can we take from that that this one the level of force to cause it, and you'll use more than what the trivial A snitch agreat with that you told us in evidence, and again this is at two five, three three of your honor's notes. It's actually quite difficult to bruise the scalp with a punch because it's such, you know, it's pretty thick sort of skin, and a punch usually a broader sort of area, a broader area of contact.

But I cannot distinguish what sort of impact do you remember saying that?

Yes, so can we agree, professor that if it is a punch, appreciating the qualifications about that.

Then it's been a decent one.

I think it's probably reasonable.

And I think, you know, probably is a bit easier to get such a burse, you know, knocking into a wall or door or something like that.

Sure, but if it's a punch on the level of force you have described, it's a decent one.

I think a decent punch would be a fair description.

Yes.

McClintock next went onto the wound to Hannah's nose bridge, described by Mansfield as a small graze. The autopsy pathologist, doctor Kesher, had said there was a hemorrhage associated with the injury. Having seen it both at the scene and at the autopsy, Cordner said he accepts there was a hemorrhage. He earlier said he believed the injury could have been caused after death, similar to the injury to Hannah's ear.

The pathologist says, it's not bruised.

Can you please explain the bruised appearance, they asked. Cordner said that while the nose looks slightly swollen, that's not bruising and may have been the shape of Hannah's nose. He said, the purple color is post mortem development resulting from congestion. That's when you block the veins, but the blood is still being pumped into the head via the arteries, which require more pressure to obstruct. They then moved on

If it did happen in life, there's more to discuss. You see.

It's yes, yep, And.

Presumably that's because a grip to the arm and life.

What you mean is, well, look, that possibly is an assault, but it's possibly something else. Yes, and we know that it's not yellow, so that at least gives us that time frame. So if it did, and this is a matter for the jury again, isn't it But if it did happen prior to death, we would now have three injury is within a similar time frame, either prior to or about the time of death. It's also possible that this one, based on your analysis, could have occurred another way.

Set fifth.

Cordner and Kesha both agree that an abrasion to Hannah's back likely occurred after death. They also agreed that blood from Hannah's ear likely wasn't an injury either. The blood from the ear seems apparent on the pillow on which she was lying on after her body had been moved. Cordner said, he said, that's the best conclusion. McClintock then showed Cordner photographs of Hannah's hands adorned with rings. She said, there's no obvious sign of blood on the underside of her hands.

Yeah, I think you want to resist the temptation of time to come to too many specific conclusion in a circumstance where you know the predictability of where bits and pieces are moving turn farm and around in between, as the dynamism of moving a dead body from one place turnout may be.

Happened.

So the possibility, the way I have thought about this is just possibly at some point while a body's being moved, the hand has somehow got close to the air. That's the way I've been thinking about it.

And if that's happened though, somehow the blood's ended up in between her fingers, yes, but nowhere else that we can sit.

Yeah, well, well, I really, I really don't think you should be skeptical about that.

But that's what's happened based on this is the only place we have blood is in between her fingers and not otherwise on her hand, And.

As a pathologist not interpreting the rest of the evidence.

As a pathologist, you can't discount that their hand's been cleaned and that blood's been missed.

Oh, as a pathologist, but you know, I imagine they looked for that sort of possibility where they're fibers or anything on it that might have suggested that.

As a pathologist, you can't discount it, though.

Can you.

No.

No, Well, I don't.

Nothing to specifically suggest it to me as a pathologist.

But if you're saying to me, could that hand have been.

You know, as a sort of factual thing cleaned, I can't say no.

Onto the horizontal impression on her neck, Cordner said, impartial suspension, you don't get the clear upward ligature mark.

Instead, it's broadly horizontal.

So the mark scene on Hannah's neck is perfectly compatible with a partial suspension hanging, he said. Cordner agreed when McClintock asked whether a homicide victim's ability to resist an assault may be affected by the body's position they're in at the time, Cordner agreed, someone who could do a corroded or choker hold would be able to do it to someone on their front, and that hold can cause unconsciousness within ten to twelve seconds, but the hold would need to be sustained.

Perhaps another qualifier of your question might be you mentioned, you know, provided the person you had to do it, if they weren't intending to kill the person, they're obviously less likely to get injured. But you know, you might think that someone who's trying to kill someone might apply more force to that arm around the neck, and they've more more likely to leave injuries. And that accord with my own sort of view that in death associated with that it would be more likely to see injuries.

You know, it just very much depends on what's happening at the time, doesn't.

It depends on what's happening at the time. Yes.

If a person has been surprised by an assailant or asleep, for example, and someone manages to get pressure on their neck, that person is you've told us, could lose consciousness really quite quickly, couldn't they.

Yes, People of course can wake up very quickly, even more quickly.

Yes, it's surprised or asleep that.

Might affect their ability to resist.

Data. It's Mike.

Referencing Cordner's earlier reference of a case where an eleven year old was drugged and unable to fight back from an assault McClintock said that Hannah did have twice the recommended level of the sedative sleeping pill zopper clone in his system, so it was self sedated and had drunk alcohol as well. Cordner said it was a pretty low level of alcohol.

The degree of sedation and a victim is certainly a relevant factor to the degree of resistance that they can put up, and to use your terminology, whether that victim is unable to fight back, it's a factor, isn't it.

It is a factor.

But I think you know to complete the discussion, I mean you mentioned the possibility that you know, if you take those sorts of dug large zopper climb for a period of time, you get used to them. And so not clear to me that you know, because it seems she has been taking them for a long time, that she would necessarily be significantly affected by them. And if she's awake, they're not doing their purpose, are they.

McClintock then asked, you don't know whether Pauline Hannah was asleep, and you don't know what body position she was in when she died. Cordner said the expectation would be that such a person would wake rapidly, instantly, and would do anything in their utmost power to resist and escape from the position they're in. And if there is a great

It could be a nail mark. And I think you said as much yourself in your report, didn't you?

Yes, And.

The studies that you have looked at in relation to this, I think you see this about thirteen out of twenty of the cases you looked at did.

Have nail marks or some other nail.

Oh, there is injuries.

There is a reported.

You know, there's a paper in the electric looking at injuries to people alleged to be assailants in manual or ligature strangulation cases. And as you said, thirteen out of twenty had some injuries.

You accept that that injury based on what you saw, putting aside what explanation there may or may not be about it, that that injury could be a nail mark on his forehead.

I couldn't rule it out, non.

May I suggest? Is the case on the pathology with many things in this.

Particularly that there is further discussion to be had about it if you want to. But I mean, as you've asked the question, can I rule that out as being a result of a a nail.

The enter is no.

But the photo of that injury is virtually another one that I've seen virtually useless.

Cordner said he would think more of it if there was a single, ill defined injury on his forehead. The Crown ended their cross examination. Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then addressed McClintock's suggestion that Hannah was sedated due to Zopper clone a sleeping pill. McClintock said she's not suggesting at all Hannah was sedated to the point of unconsciousness, but possibly to the point it had affected her ability to resist.

As a suspicious circumstance.

The next defense witness was doctor Olav Nielsen, who has a Master of Criminology and a PhD from the University of Sydney. He's also a consultant psychiatrist and works with the homeless. Nielsen has a particular professional interest in depression and suicidal risk, he said, is published about forty papers on suicide and it's a big part of his work

A bottle of wine a night for.

Over a decade, as she described around twenty thirteen, was a hazardous level for a woman. Neilson says alcohol is excellent at relieving anxiety until it wears off when anxiety worsens. He notes Hannah was on fluexitine aka prozac for about twenty years, and so how does.

The use of alcohol with that medication?

Are there any factors or are there any complexities? That we need to be aware of in relation to the use of alcohol with those medications.

Well, just rendering them less effective.

For basically, it's just an arm wrestle where the alcohol's winning.

She was prescribed medications to treat alcohol use disorders. There was also a prescription for diazepam to mitigate with dural symptoms. He agreed it might be relevant that Hannah had consumed red wine the night before she was found dead in the morning. The alcohol renders the antidepressant medication ineffective, countering any beneficial effect.

From her long term use. He says.

Hannah was also on weight loss medication, including one which was then removed from the market. It was replaced with fentamine about twenty ten, which Hannah then began taking.

And what's fit to mein what can you help us or tell us.

About that particular drone. Look, it's basically an amphetamine. It's a lowish dose, you know, fifteen milligrams. They come in a thirty milligram tablet as well. But they work exactly this name as every other amphetamine you know dex amphetamine for ADHD, you know amphetamine or methamphetamine.

They working in the same way.

So that particular medication would how would that work in combination with the medication you've told us she's on in relation to depression and anxiety.

Yeah, well, again it's it's not a very good practice. I'd have to say.

I don't mean to criticize a colleague, but the firstly, if you try and prescribe phetamine or fluoxetine when a person's already on it, you're you're your prescribing program will say there's a contry indication. So there is a potentially dangerous contra indication.

People's there, what's a contra indication?

Perhaps there's an interaction. I should have said, it should have been the word I used, a potentially dangerous interaction in that the phantomine can cause serotonin syndrome, which is a sort of an excess serotonin in people who. I mean, it's a rare and obviously you know there's plenty of people on that combination, but even so it's that's hazardous and.

What does that mean?

By way of that come.

Yeah, well it's a look, it causes a dangerous delirium with a sort of an autonomic and.

Again I don't want to get technical, but.

Where there's too much serotonin and people become confused and have rabbit heartbeat and can even die. This is what, for example, kills young people at music festivals. It's the serotonin syndrome from taking MDMA for example.

Neilson said that the combination of drugs was not ideal and that Hannah clearly developed a tolerance to several of them due to long term use, and it didn't work well with her mental health issues. In particular, the combination of Hannah's chronic depression and the combination of Zoppo clone and alcohol are very dangerous for suicide, he said.

He said that.

It's clear that Hannah was very perfectionist, and we've heard that from others in the trial as well. He said high achievers can take their own lives, even if unsuccessful people are more likely to, and that it's not uncommon for people to mask their true mental state and feelings from those around them, such as colleagues. Nielsen says only thirty to forty percent of people leave suicide notes he didn't see any evidence of Hannah having seen a psychiatrist

I would still say that the most likely cause of death in this case was hanging with partial suspension features.

But we would therefore give the cause of death as hanging.

Thank you, and having reviewed this case, do you have any concerns with their opinion.

I don't have concerns with giving an opinion of hanging.

Milroy has also seen the evidence given by all three previous pathologists who have all given evidence in this trial. He went on to explain why he supported Cordner that Hannah's death was self inflicted.

I really would expect if it was manual strangulation through throttling, to see external injuries and internal injuries, and particularly in a lady of miss Hannah's age, damage to the voice box structures and or hyoid bone, because they are more frag brittle.

As we get older. We lay down their cartilage when we're young.

So it's typical not to see anything in young people, even in homicidal strangulation in terms of damage to the voice box cartilage and the hyoid bone, which is this bone that's just above.

But as you get older.

Income they become more like bone, and they become more brittle. They become more like chalk that can snap. And so if you compress someone manually, I would have expected to have seen fractures.

Milroy added for homicide or ligature strangulations, you would usually see resistance and expect to see external injuries. Mansfield moved on to Hannah's use of the sleeping pill Zoba clone. You'll remember analysis of her blood and hair showed the presence of the drug. Milroy said it can be difficult to know what effect a drug might have based on a post mortem. He explained, even though the trial had heard earlier it was twice the normal dose, it was

The thing about sedating drugs is that they're intended to help you go to sleep, but it doesn't mean that they're an anesthetic. It doesn't mean that you render someone unconscious. They fall asleep, and then people can be woken up from the sleep, and I would still expect the person to fight back with this degree of zopiclone. Inordinarily we would not consider it in any way relevant to the cause of death, but in terms of its effects, it can't be.

It can't.

I mean, the person may have taken help them go to sleep.

They may be a little bit more.

Groggy than they would otherwise be if they weren't on it, but they may be very tolerant because they've been on it for six months and one would expect them to wake up if attacked.

Under cross examination by Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock, Milroy confirmed he provided a report on August twenty first, twenty twenty four, after doctor Stephen Cordener's approach was questioned by doctor Martin Sage during the Crown case. This was well into the trial. During her cross examination, McClintock asked if he's familiar with the term non fatal strangulation. Milroy explained in England he would occasionally see cases of people had been strangled and survived.

Thank you.

In non fatal strangulation, would you agree as a common feature of violence against women? Yes, and is it also well none in the medical profession that non fatal strangulation is a key marker for the escalation of domestic violence.

Yes, are you aware.

Of a British Medical Journal study indicating that it raised the risk of someone becoming a victim of a homicide or serious future harm by around seven and a half at times in victim survivors.

I'm not specifically aware of that study, but I accept and I think it's fair to point out that almost all the cases I dealt with clinically have been female victims with a male perpetrator.

You'll remember, earlier in the trial, Hannah's family friends John and Pheasant Reardon told the court that she told them Pulkinghorn had previously put his hands on her neck as a strangulation. Thread her questioning moved on to the differing opinions of pathologists called by both sides of the case.

You're not suggesting doctor Sage hasn't also been fair and scientific, nor are you suggesting that of doctor Kesha.

Is it right? That's correct.

It's just that they look at the possibilities aspect differently to Professor Coordiner and what you've told us today, don't they?

Well?

And I say that in my report, I said that this is a case where people are looking at possibilities.

Could we put it this way?

The pathology is obviously a very important aspect and we must take care with its conclusions.

But you're not saying, and.

I think you've made this clear, But just so everyone's clear, you're not saying pathology is the one source of truth here.

No, No, absolutely not.

McClintock questioned his comments on Zoppo clone and how Hannah might have developed a tolerance.

One of the concerns about zopper clone is its use. It is a drug used to drug other people. I'm not suggesting that's what's happened here at all, but that's one of its concerns. Is a particularly combined with alcohol, it can be used in that way to cause excess sedation.

Correct, Well, yeah.

It's not one of the ones I'm familiar as familiar with as some other drugs, but and I could see that that could be the case.

Melroy added the assessment of SR toxicologist Helen Paulson was fair that Hannah had taken the drug over a six month period, though the frequency and level of use is hard to say. McClintock then asked, is sooperclone sometimes used to sedate people and how quickly someone sedated on zopperclone would wake up.

What I would say is that the concentrations were not high. In other words, there's no evidence of significant excess.

Of being taken. But I concede that.

In any drug, in any individual, unless we know exactly how they would perform, we are to a certain extent speculating both ways in one of them, both in terms of it's both in terms of its sedation or non sedation.

Neutrality came into question.

Because I think the pathology certainly favors suicidal hanging in the context of suicide versus homicide because of the known fine soft ligature, partial suspension hanging, and the absence of.

Injury on the neck.

And therefore, in my opinion, when you look at it, it much more strongly favors suicide ober homicide. So you couldn't say it was neutral. It's not a fifty to fifty coin toss.

Before finishing, McClintock asked if strangulations staged as a suicide are even a thing. Milroy replied, that's correct. Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield had questions in response around the use of the term possibilities.

I've never seen a report on a.

Hanging, suicidal hanging, or self inflicted hanging where someone has put in the caveat I can't exclude homicidal on net compression.

I've never seen it.

And just to give some context, in the last fourteen years, my unit has done nearly a thousand hangings, of which a proportion will be will be partial suspension.

Milroe said he's only ever seen one case of an attempted concealed homicide where someone had tried to make it look like a suicide. In his career, he's examined six hundred or seven hundred self inflicted hangings. The next witness was Atakhan Shaho. He's a director and senior technician at a company called Our Computer Guy. The company specializes in data security and medical software integration, predominantly in health and law.

You can use Celebrate or Exiom dex is either a mobile phone or a laptop. Or if you know what you're doing, you can gain xcess to a mobile phone or a laptop even if you're not appraised of the relevant passwords exactly.

But you do, you do lose the ability to so for example, on an iPhone if it's locked to iCloud, and some people might know this that if you don't know the pin code or you don't know the I Cloud password, you can't get into the data. And that's because Apple has a secure enplay in their iCloud and that protects the contacts, the calendars, and the usually the text messages and other facets of the data on the database. Because Apple have a unique encryption service, that not that

In June this year, Chahou traveled to New Zealand to obtain the information needed for his forensic IT analysis and was physically handed Hannah's phone and her middlemore HP laptop. He said police weren't able to get into the laptop because they didn't know the password. He asked to try

It then takes the abatim copy of all files, logs and databases off the phone and creates essentially a Celebrate database that can be analyzed. So if you can try and imagine breaking into a filing cabinet and taking all the files and the information that are in there, regardless of how they're stored, and they're in a searchable way that someone can actually go in and look for the information that they're looking for.

So as far as information on the phone itself.

Should be able to secure a copy of that information.

Yes, So a phone is made up of lots and lots of databases and log files, and those they're designed by the manufacturer and by the software developers, and that information is structured, and Celebrate takes that information, analyzes it and puts it into a number of different ways and criterias. That allows us to look at the information in human speak.

And then what about information stored in the cloud, Because the phone.

Stores cloud information on itself as well, sometimes you can have.

A copy of that.

If I could give an example.

One of the phones that was interrogated, the four to seven Triple zero, which I believe was the iPhone twalk pro, only had three contacts on it. But when I done deeper, I found over a thousand contacts that were in the cloud that weren't on the phone. And what that tells me is the version of the operating system protected the iCloud from the Celebrate and in such, the Celebrate extraction didn't have those nine hundred and ninety seven odd contacts in its extraction.

Does that mean that some material and the cloud can't be excessed via Celebright correct?

Chaho confirmed one of his tasks was to look for communications shedding light on Hannah's well being and her communications with Polkinghorn via mobile phone and email. He provided at least a year's worth of text messages between the couple. The trial then started to hear about emails that Shahoe analyzed.

We gave one thousand percent support to you both and Mum when the arrangement was being made to take over the property, and incidentally head two on that occasion broken between you and tracing I Dash. We do not regret that decision. I know you have worked on the property. That is what life is about, working to build up your future furp and I have worked extremely hard to where I have got to in life too.

You are not the only ones.

I also arge you to think about what you said about me. That was brutal and hurtful and I have not deserved it, particularly your replication that I am a poor aunt to Rose and in brackets, and I did say Jacob and the brackets.

You know, this whole episode with Mum.

Has been very difficult for me as well as sorry as well, And yet I have had to hold the line between you and Tracy. I don't think if you get that, you seem to think it's only difficult for you and Shelley.

The defense earlier looked at the tensions between the Hannah's siblings over the care of her family home. Bruce, as you'll remember earlier in the trial, testified for the Crown, while Tracy, the youngest sister, testified for the defense. Another email to Polkinghorn's son Ben and his wife Bridget, around the time of the first COVID cases, had Hannah Wright about being asked to run the Northern Region's supply chain and had been working all day and emailing into the night.

She wrote.

There was another email from April twenty twenty during the COVID lockdown, which Mansfield read out to the court.

But I worked fifteen slat six hours times four.

Over easter, and yet I am tired and not myself.

But I've had a horrible day starting with I'm not going to name that person whom I have disappointed.

I'm never good enough despite my effits. Today is the twenty fifth day in a.

Row, but I'm not adding any value. I want desperately to tell someone and cry and ask for help, but everyone seems to think I'm amazing and does not want to know that I have foibles or failings. I've tried to bring it up with Fillip, but he tells me he hasn't got go time to go over negative tonight and brack and that's his equals.

He has enough. I might stand on my own two feet, but I don't know.

Today if I have two feet or what they look like. So I've had three glasses of wine and a beautiful dinner thanks to PJP, but I don't know what to do with myself dot dot dot.

So I will go.

To bed and not sleep, very unusual for me, and it builds up.

Who knows what might follow? Have to tell.

Someone, even if no one but God ever sees this.

In court, Polkinghorn was seen sobbing as the email was read out. More emails saw Hannah talk about her mother no longer recognizing her. In August twenty twenty while one around the twenty twenty election had Hannah fearing how far our taxes are going to be ramped up if Jacinder Aardern wins. Another email read by Mansfield from Hannah to family says my life is insane and her role is

To recap the trial.

Has heard Hannah's phone only looked up two contacts, Polkinghorn and the daughter of their family friend at four am the morning she died. Prosecutors say it was an automatic security process. Says it was Hannah drafting a message to Polkinghorn and the young woman. Lee has said that Hannah's

Lee has since met with Atikhan Shaho.

And did you show mister Shaho at the d if you.

The data that you were looking at and taken through your explanation as to what you think is happening with those log entries?

Yes?

And are there still is you understand it some areas of disagreement between yourself and mister sharho as to what these entries. Okay, So just to recap for the benefit of everybody, you've told us that in your opinion, this is a background activity rather than user activity, and that in your opinion, nobody is using the phone at the time of those entries.

Have I that's fear.

Yes.

When the phone becomes idle at ten forty seven pm the night before the morning of April fifth, there's no trace of anything happening. Li said at ten forty seven pm, there are signs of the phone being locked. To access it again, you'd need to unlock it, for example via password, and someone would need to click into the messaging app.

He says.

He reiterated several times that his view that Hannah did not use her phone after that, and the Identity Lookup service in fact, is an automatic background process which only runs when in use. It can't be used as evidence that Hannah was drafting a message the morning of her death.

He said, with exhaustive.

References to other earlier data on Polkinghorn's phone, suggests Defense it analyst Attikan Shaho was mistaken to suggest anomalies in the data police used to show the phone went into airplane mode. Just as Graham Lang asked a question about the series of ons and offs in the airplane mode data, Lee says phones work off user habits, So if you regularly turn airplane mode on and off, the phone would regularly check that.

So I'm actually speaking between the ten twenty four in the morning. In general, there was no log activity or whatsoever. So no user interaction.

Yeah, none at all in that timeframe.

No, disagree with mister Shaho that this could be Pauline Hanna going into the phone to draft messages even if they weren't sent.

Yes.

Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then began his cross examination of Lee, first asking about his background before digging into the process of how Lee works and how he receives phones as a digital forensic analyst and the process from there.

I take from your background that you're not a registered Apple developer.

No, and Apple doesn't work.

With Celebrate or Axiom by way of license or contract or even informally.

Do they?

I don't believe. So.

It sounds like prior to joining the police as a technician and then as an analyst, your background has been with Samsung.

In relation to answering user inquiries.

Correct, yes, but I don't really understand your question here.

What what what relevancy does they have my background to the knowledge around the log entries?

Well, because there's a disagreement between you and mister in relation to how the Apple operating system works.

It's not really Apple how Apple system works. It's more like the there's a database ext out of the Apple phone would just exhibit that we actually tooking the database around it.

You know where I'm coming from.

Mansfield and Lee went back and forth on how the Apple server connects to a phone. Lee said he disagrees with Shahou that the Apple server doesn't connect randomly, but only at their request of a user. There weren't other background events happening with Hannah's phone, but Lee said he can't be sure the phone isn't going through all the contacts at once when these background events are occurring. He then took leave for the day, but what would turn

What records, if any, were you given of a hospital admission following an attempt at suicide for Paul and Hannah?

No, there was none. There's no admissions.

Just the reference the referral to the to the crisis team was the only records that I had.

Yes, that's that.

Suicidal thoughts though, isn't it not plans and not an attempt?

The crisis tam, Yeah, I guess it's an informed plan. Isn't it to concresh into a lorry? It was that that was in the twenty thirty December nineteen, Yes.

And so my question is the only evidence that you were given about anything to do with an attempt?

The statement of Tracy Hannah.

Correct, right, and.

So it's obviously for the jury whether they accept Tracy Hannah's evidence or not. But there's no medical evidence that you were given underpinning an attempt at suicide for Pauline Hannah.

Was there.

Of medical evidence of an episode of deliberate self harm?

No, No, no medical records.

Neilson said that Hannah's behavior and the lead up to her death is not necessarily the most important. These decisions are often very impulsive, he said, and follow weeks or months of stress or depression. McClintock said. Neilson talked about her unusual behavior over the weekend before her death, referencing her going to the tip.

Are you suggesting that a trip to the tip is indicative of.

Some sort of mental health deterioration.

Not not any of itself, but for example, people who give away possessions because they've made a decision to kill themselves, that would be a sign. For example, people clearing out, you know, personal items because that has been a thought on their mind might be a sign.

Again, you know, I don't know that, but.

That's it's just one factor that may have been relevant, I think is.

She's taking her all of her wildly goods to the tap might we might have an alarm, But in that instance, what we know is she's taking some old curtains to the tap.

There was also the taking of a meal to some old friends, Nielsen said, which he understood to be out of character and later confirmed that came from Polkinghorn's statement to police, and he is reliant on what he said about her suicide risk factors. On the various drugs Hannah was on at the time of her death, Nielsen said, we don't know about her tolerance. He earlier testified that the combination of Zoppa clone and alcohol would have caused a disinhibiting effect.

When you say there was a loss of them in that particular night. For that, you again, you're having to rely on the idea that she has indeed committed suicide necessarily in order to say that, aren't you, because there's no evidence of her being disinhibited in the lead.

Up to that art.

No, No, it's a predictable effect of you know, a bottle of peano and no New Zealand pen four and several tablets probably of zopper clone, not just one tablet, given the blood alcohol, the zopper clone content, and.

Where do you get the evidence from that she drank the bottle of wine.

No, No, there was a that was well, I'm assuming that's what it was, because.

That was a Dr. Polkinhorn's son, So we're back to.

The we have to rely on him for that.

On Johannah's appearance and Neilson's comments that she might have been hiding issues via her good presentation, you remember telling.

Us that, yes, how many times did you meet her?

That's a I have never met her.

Obviously, he can't.

I mean it's possible people could mask things, right, but you can't possibly say that that's what's happening with her presenting herself well, can you? Because looking God gives some people confidence in themselves, doesn't it.

Yes.

Nilsen also acknowledges Hannah had responded positively after talking about suicidal thoughts to a crisis team in twenty nineteen, and that the opening of a new vaccination clinic in the week after Hannah died would have been a source of pride for her despite the stress of her job. McClintock later asked about building offender's risk profiles for violent offending.

One of the key things that you would look at, I assume, is whether there is evidence of prior violence, yes, and in a male offender, and any evidence that was put in front of you of a non fatal strangulation incident of a female that would be a red flag for a violence profile for an offender.

Look.

Yes, the circumstances of previous violence in addition to a history of the previous violence would be would be relevant obviously.

And drug use would also be something that would have to be factored into an offender risk profile, wouldn't it.

Yeah, Yes, of course that's probably the largest, the strongest risk factor, the previous.

Behavior and substance utse you know, both because of the antisocial nature of substance abuse and the disinhibiting effect of substances to recap.

The couple's family, friends the Readans both said Hannah had described Pulkinghorn having previously placed his hands on her neck as part of what they understood to be a strangulation threat. Nielsen reiterated presenting well doesn't mean you can't suffer from depression or commit suicide, and Hannah not disclosing her thoughts to colleagues or family doesn't mean she wasn't considering things. He also said the mix of drugs and alcohol could have taken away Hannah's fear of death.

You've obviously had an opportunity to consider my lender of friends questioning by way of cross examination. Does that move you from the opinion you experienced chief regarding miss Hannah presenting with a number of risk factors for suicide?

That's right now.

I stand by that original opinion, which is based on.

My experience and research.

After the day's testimony, just as Graham Lang then addressed the jury saying that due to the trial extending into a seventh week and with closing statements not due until the eighth week, now one juror's prior commitments means she's been stood down so as to not put pressure on the jury to deliver a verdict. The jury of eleven now eight women and three men, are due to start