Hilda, I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Us Mere Mortals often idolize celebrities. Their glitzy and glamorous lifestyles have had audiences captivated for decades, but at what point does the line blur from adoration to a sense of ownership. The tragic death of One Direction star Liam Payne has sparked conversations about how far is too far when it comes to the public's entitlement over these stars, and how
intrusive media can get to serve that need. It comes off the back of a number of celebrities speaking out about the intrusion from fans and the stresses of being in the public eye. So can society change how it interacts with celebrities or is there no rewiring of this relationship?
Today on the Front Page, University of Otago lecturer in Media, Film and Communication, doctor Sabrina morro joins us to discuss this latest dark mark in the celebrity ecosystem Sabrina, of course, this conversation has been sparked by the tragic death of One Direction sty Li and Pain. There are fans mourning all over the globe. And some may say it's silly to mourns someone they've never met, But it's quite common, isn't it.
Yes, it is quite common. I think with every celebrity that dies, there is a moment of the fans coming together and reckoning because there's all of those parasocial relationships that are built around the fans. Celebrity, you know, symbolize something for a lot of people, and they are really at the or of the coming together of fans. And there are ways of coming together that might be mediated through social media, that might be lived, experiencing, attending a concert.
All of those moments of heightened the motion means that, you know, that possibility of no longer coming together around that celebrity can be quite difficult for fans to wrapple with.
Why do people feel so intimately familiar with celebrities, particularly those that they've never met.
I think it's what they represent, you know, it's a kind of way of imagining yourself in a world that is completely foreign, that world of fame, and so they capture forms of inspiration or aspiration, the kind of stories that the celebrity make accessible, whether it is through the medium of their song or the films or that kind of everyday content that they produce as social media celebrity, they capture something more than themselves, and that's what speaks
to audiences. That's what allows you to project yourself, to imagine what would life be like if I were them, And especially thinking about celebrities who rose to fame coming from very ordinary background, which is the case of Limpain and his fellow band members of Wine Direction is kind of those people have talent and then they became, you know, such a big, transnational celebrities. And there is also something about the boy band and all of that generation that
grew up with them. You know a lot of people around my age kind of late twenties, early thirties grew up with them, and so it represents a lot, right, It's those moments that we lived and that their songs help us articulate. It's the teenage angst that we might have experience throughout our teenagers, and then those songs giving voice to them.
That fan celebrity relationship isn't for everyone, though, Rising star Chapel Rowan sparked a debate after she spoke about the creepy behavior from some fans. I don't care that abuse and harassment stocking is a normal thing to do to people who.
Are famous or a little famous whatever.
I don't care that it's normal.
I don't care that this crazy type of behavior comes along with the job the career field I've chosen.
That does not make it okay.
I'm allowed to say no to creepy behavior.
Other female pop stars came out in support of her comments, but it also prompted criticism as the negative sides of attention came with the fame and fortune. Where's the balance here, because you can't really become a superstar without fans, can you?
No? But the key thing I think is thinking about different identity as they're immediated in that relationship of fan and celebrity. So those examples that you give are women's celebrities, and the experience of fame plays out in different ways, the demands that are made on those celebrities, and then that kind of legitimized certain behavior of fans towards them.
Another way of saying this is that celebrities represent more than themselves, and so we need to think about how gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation mediate those images of the celebrity and how we engage with them. So just thinking about who we consider a genius, right and thinking about how the idea
of a genius is very gendered. You may have celebrities struggling with drug and alcohol use that is considered just part of the game, you know, for male celebrities, and then in the case of female celebrities, would be oh, you know what a train wreck. The celebrities then become symbols of what we as a society consider legitimate behavior and not legitimate behavior.
I guess in this case, at least the fan interaction has been more wholesome than other cases. I suppose with one direction, many have been gathering to remember and honor Liam Pain. Are there some benefits or positives to that intense fan relationship.
Definitely, I think nostalgia playing in it, and also the fact that he died quite young, so it's perceived as a tragedy. No one should die that young, No one should die in such a tragic accident. And so I think that the wholesomeness of the fans coming together and honoring Limpain and the other members as well of one direction issuing statement is an attempt to focus on that aspect of tragedy, and that whatever might happen between the
band members, whatever might have happened in Limpain's career. After one direction, it doesn't matter, right. What matters is that no, why should they that young and in such tragic circumstances. And I think that's a big factor of making that perhaps more wholesome in the kind of interactions.
The mood here in Hyde Parking is quite somber.
One direction is Liam Payne supporters. It doesn't matter who we are, where you come from. It's like not knowing the person's personally. But it was when like YouTube blew up, and so it was the first time that you were ever able to follow someone's life.
So intimately, I've been crying at work all day every day.
Yesterday was the only day I didn't cry because I felt I couldn't cry anymore.
Paines, I suppose also a good example of how that fandom can turn on you. There was criticism circulating on some corners of the Internet the weeks before his death, particularly after his ex fiance talked about their relationship on a podcast.
I guess as a.
Celebrity, there's so much more content out there now and we are all so online that the discourse is basically unavoidable. I guess, isn't it. Those ups and downs of being a celebrity.
Yes, and especially in the case of One Direction, who became famous through reality TV in an age of social media as well, as you point out, that just really exacerbate the level of scrutiny that they've been subjected to and the amount of pressure as well that they've been subjected to. It's still unfolding, and it's unclear for the moment the cause of death. I think there's still an
investigation going on. But I'm finding it really interesting how there is commentary being issued around what might be the cause of death and why it's important. And it feels to me like it's almost a negotiation of right. This is tragic, and we know that there's a certain level of complicity that we may have in explaining, you know, Liam's struggles during and after One Direction, and so is there a way that we can make ourselves feel better about this tragedy.
Alongside the intrusiveness of fans, there's also the celebrity media relationship. Celeb gossip site TMZ broke the news of Liam Payne's death by publishing cropped photographs of his dead body showing his tattoos to prove that it was him on the deck of that hotel. They rightfully got a lot of backlash and took the photos down a couple of hours afterwards. But what's on the internet will stay there forever. Hey, is it a surprise we are still seeing paparazzi and
gossip sites behaving this way. It's been nearly three decades since Princess Diana died, for example, and more recently society had this rethink of how we may have treated Britney spears in the noughties. Why haven't some sections of that media their lessen.
Because that's how celebrity culture operates, you know, It's about turning people into commodities that we consume, and so we might consume them in ways that feel legitimate to us reading a New York Times obituary or you know, reading interview in depth interview on the celebrity or reflection on fame. We might see you know, talk shows as well, and
kind of interviews around certain moments in that celebrity. But on that same continuum of what we perceive more legitimate way of consuming fame, there's also the paparazzi, the cussip columns, the celebrity magazines. It's part of the same ecosystem. It's part of the same capitalist machinery, you know, that turns people into commodities, so that we have something called celebrity news that we can click on and consume.
I find it really interesting that we have this kind of ownership over celebrities in life and also in death. When my nana does for example, I didn't post a photo of her dead body on Facebook to show people and prove that she was dead, right, But I'm thinking we've got this Liam Payne situation. There's also photos of John Belushi, Cobain, Like the list goes on. What gives us that innate sense of ownership and need, I guess to see these photos as prove for or what is that?
I think the easy explanation is the one that TMZGI, which is, you know, way of authenticating and proving that this is indeed not fake news or a scam. But the real answer is that sense, as you said, that sense of ownership over celebrities. We made them famous. What
they sound is their whole image. It's their bodies that is reproduced in you know, advertisement partnerships, in photo shoots, in concerts, and so even after their death or even in moments where they're struggling, there is this sense of feeling, we made you famous. We ought to know how you died, as uncomfortable and as distasteful as that might appear. And so this is where then you see those process of negotiation and renegotiation because on the one hand, there's taboo
around death. We don't really talk about death in our societies, but celebrity death is a way that we can talk about death in a way that feels socially acceptable. And it's also because of that kind of sense of you know, we made them famous, sense of ownership of the celebrity.
And then the third aspect of it is that the celebrity death because of a new moment to talk about social norms and questions of morality, which comes from this idea that we don't talk about death a lot, but when we do, then that becomes a new way to grapple with symbols. You know, celebrities are symbols that allows us to think about question of good and bad, right and wrong, justice and injustice.
The decision to run the photos drew fears the backlash on social media. TMZ and its founder, Hervey Levin did not immediately respond to request for comment, but the site appeared to second guess the decision. This is not the first time TMZ has had backlash over its reporting of
celebrity deaths. While reporting on the twenty twenty helicopter crash that took the life of Kobe Bryant and his thirteen year old daughter, Gianna, law enforcement criticized TMZ for reporting on the accident before the coroner's office could confirm the identities of the victims and inform the families.
Obviously, this example from TMZ is inexcusable, but the media wouldn't be constantly updating stories on Liam Payne, for example, if the public weren't eating every morsel of that information that they could write. I think I know more about the last hours of Liam Payne's life than I do with what my own family did last week. Why is there this kind of morbid fascination? I suppose, and if people collectively stopped clicking, it would go away.
I would like to think so. I would like to think that withdrawing our support and kind of demand for such news would make it go away. But I think, yes, that the drive of consuming celebrity news in those moments of heightened tragedy is that it's about the celebrity themselves and what they represent, but it's also about how as a society we're using this as an exemplary moment of reactualizing perception on behaviors that we deem appropriate or inappropriate.
And so the big question around Liam Paine's last hours of his life or last week of his life then becomes, you know, is this suicide? Is this self harm? Is this drug and juse psychosis? Like what is the cause of death? Because that's also a way to absolve ourselves, right. If it's a drug overdose, then it's a tragic death, but it could have been avoided had he been more
able to manage his mental health and his addiction. So as audiences, we're no longer such as take in the kind of predatory relationship you know that celebrities like him have been subjected for such a young age. If it's suicide, then that was his choice, you know, and it's tragic, but it is his choice, and again it's a form of absolution.
I find it quite interesting the backlash against TMC. Do you think our mentality is slowly changing, because I don't know if that same backlash would have happened, say in the two thousands.
Yeah, I definitely think that there is more awareness in the kind of toxicity that comes with fame. We have more celebrities talking openly about it, we have more celebrities talking about mental health. We have generally in society kind of more concerted effort to talk about mental health as well.
So I think that there's definitely some awareness there. There's also some awareness on how the entertainment industry can foster forms of abuse and exploitation and create harm, sexual harassment, sexual violence, you know, and I think it's important as well to situate that in a post me to moment. So there's definitely some awareness. But where I'm going to be a bit more cynical is that that then becomes the news, and so it's not necessarily completely undoing the
problem from within. Right, It's still a relationship, it's still a form of consumption of celebrity of entertainment, but it's just reframed then around the shaming of TMC. That's going to become the news. It's not fundamentally re examine that unequal relationship that is at the heart of celebrity culture.
Thanks for joining us, Sabraina. That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage. It ended dot co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.