Kyota.
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Former Prime Minister Jim Bolger has died, aged ninety. He became the thirty fifth prime minister after leading National to a landslide victory in nineteen nineteen. Bulger was then ousted though by his party caucus in nineteen ninety seven and replaced with
Jenny Shipley. Today on the Front Page News Talks that'd be Senior political correspondent Barry Soper is with us to take us behind the scenes of Bulger's government and what his legacy will be. Tell me, Barry, how did you first meet Jim Bolger?
Well, it goes back a long time. I met him in the seventies and I was the industrial roundsman for the television in those days, for TV and Z and he was the labor Minister for Rob Muldoon. And after a short time of me being in my job, I was invited up to Bolger's office for a drink. I thought this was rather strange, a much older man, a young lad, and well it brought home to me the power of television that politicians always loved television and Jim
Bolder was no exception to that. So we had a relationship, a good relationship then, although Jim Bolder used to take off the then President of the Federation of Labor, Jim Knox, was a whole hard liner, and he'd take him off at a conference and Knox had a unusual way of speaking, and Bold used to mimic him and then expect to sit down the next week to talk with this man seriously. And of course Jim Knox got very annoyed with him
about it. But that's by the bye. I mean when he became leader, after Jim McLay took over from Muldoon, him becoming leader, it was obvious that that was going to happen, and I used to rib him about it that he really wants the top job when Jim McClay got it. And you know, he had a long apprenticeship before he became Prime Minister. I think it was about eighteen years he had in Parliament, which is much longer than any current incumbent or probably anyone in the history
in this country has had. So he was well equipped to take on the job and he took it on. He took it on with an interesting beginning because there was a super certax on superuritance then and those the more wealthy he had to pay at tax on the superinnuation and that was a Roger Douglas. He implemented that policy and Jim Bolger during the election campaign said no, if no, but snow maybe's I'm going to get rid
of this. Came into office and changed his mind because they had other more pressing financial issues to deal with, and so that was held against him for a long time. I think his legacy, though in politics, will be his settlement of maldy Land claims, because up until that point there's been a lot of talk about it. But Jim Bulger and I think it had a lot to do
with his Irish background. He was a Roman Catholic born of Irish immigrants to this country, left school at fifteen, which is rather remarkable, and went on to become Prime minister. But he always felt, as I guess a Catholic, that they were sort of in the minority. And somebody once said to me, a Catholic will never become prime minister of this country. Yes, and Jim Bolgier he cut the mold, and I think because he could understand people that were
considered a bit second class citizens. I think he understood Moldy much more and really set about with urgency to settle mary Land claims. And he did that with Doug Graham, who was an excellent negotiative for the treaty settlements.
So Bolger led the country through some significant economic reforms and austerity measures, especially in the early nineties. Tell me about that time wasn't quite tense.
Well, it was tough, and you know it was always held against his government that they effectively and they didn't do it directly, but they effectively cut welfare benefits, which was an odo in this country. And that was Ruth Richison. Now Richardson was the Finance minister just after Bulger took over. He and Ruth Richardson were never the closest allies, and she followed in a way her own agenda, and in the end Bulger ended up sacking her because they really
never saw eye to eye. Although I've heard since his death that Ruth Richardson has said I had finished my business and you know it was okay that he moved me along. Well, that wasn't actually the case at the time. Well, that's politics. Isn't that she was none too happy about being moved along.
You've got to both lead and mold. There's no use leading, there's no use to general. Been way out in front if you've not got the troops along with you. So you've got to give the lead. You've got to show the correct direction as you can see it, or your senior colleagues suggesting perhaps after some discussion in cabinet or whatever. But then you've got to mold in the people who have doubts, who have other propositions that they want to
put forward. I mean a caucus of any number, but certainly of the size that I will have will have different viewpoints. You don't pick clones to represent an electric in fact, have a House of representatives, and the caucuses of the two major parties do represent a fairly wide spectrum, abuse one from the center to the left and the other from the center right.
In general, Jason, during his time in office, New Zealand transitioned from the first past the post electoral system to of course, the mixed member proportional MMP as we know today. Why was this shift important and how did his government manage this change? In kind of articulating that to the New Zealand people.
Well, there's been a lot of background before we actually changed. It was the referendum and it was almost a fifty to fifty MMP or the first past of the post system.
But really it was a throwaway line by David Longhi in a debate, an election debate with Jim Bolger, and he talked about let's change the electoral system and Bulger sort of said, well, I'd be pleased to see a change, and he was held to that after the election, so he had a little choice but to hold the referendum, which he did and we had a change in the electoral system. Interestingly, the first government in nineteen ninety six
that was the Bolger government. Winston Peters essentially decided the government, as he's done many times since, and he and Bolger used to be great mates until Winston was removed from the National Party and went on to form New Zealand First and then made his name an MMP and Bolger embraced it. I don't think he particularly liked it, and he lost a few senior colleagues as a result of that.
Philip Burden was won the Trade Minister. He left saying he didn't want to work in an MMP system, but Bulger, yeah, he embraced it. Had to take Winston on, and he was even reluctant to take Winston on as a minister three years earlier, but he took him on and those two got on very very well. Indeed, many a time was I up in the ninth floor office with Jim Bolger and Winston Peters knocking back a few good Irish whiskey. Bush Mills was his favorite whiskey, and we even one
stage he loved it so much. We went to the bush Mills hostelery in I think it was Scotland or Ireland, probably Ireland, and we went to the distillery and Jim was right at home there trained visit. But he was very good at He loved to hark back to the Irish. We had to have a few drinks on board and he would affect the Irish accent. And one thing Bulger was very good at was accents, and he sort of
did it almost subconsciously. That you know. When I was at a press conference once with him in Ottawa and I was standing at the back of the press hoarde with a Canadian journalist and Brian mulroney had just spoken, and then Bulger had his turn, and this journalist turned to me and he said, I never knew York Prime Minister was Canadian because he just picked up. And you can imagine the difficulty we had after he met the
Dalai Lama. I mean, the accent was just terrible. That was for a while he would affect it, and then he had sort of snapped back to Jim Bulga.
And you went to South African with it?
Went, yes, I was in Africa with him. We went to the Commonwealth Heads Government meeting in Harare in Zimbabwe, and we were at a cocktail function there and journalists and leaders in those days socialized together at the beginning of the conference and we were in the party, if you like, and Bolge was sort of making his way to the door to sort of exit. He wasn't great
at small talk. He like to engage in people that he knew, so he's sort of getting towards the exit and suddenly the door opens and this man in a jalaba, full African dress comes through and he said to me, are you with the Prime minister? And journalists don't like to be with the prime minister, but I said, well, our Prime minister, is that man there Jim Bolger, And he said I have somebody he should meet, And through the door came Nelson Mandela. So I introduced Bulger to
Nelson Mandela. First thing I was aware of was this hand on my shoulder shoving me aside, and he had cut a sway through the crowd. Bob Hawk, now Bob howk wanted to get in the shot with Mount Nelson Mandela.
Bolgier was shrewd enough to sign up Mandala the next morning to have breakfast with, which was great for us because we went along to the breakfast, we interviewed Nelson Mandela, and you know, and then later the man he once called a terrorist, this is Jim Bolger to Mandala, we went to as anauguration, and I years later went to his funeral as well in Pretoria.
Right, So he stood in the way of Bob Hawk getting a picky with Nelson Man.
No doubt knowing Bob Hawkey most certainly would have got a picky, but I think Bolger moved very debtly and decided that he wanted to do it. There was another story at that at the inauguration that we went to later that we were at a We shouldn't have been there, but they thought that we were part of the official delegation. And we got into the lunch and Hillary Clinton was there and she was filling in for the president he
couldn't make it. And Bulger was there, of course, and I was standing near Bulger's table, and Bulger beckoned me over and he had this rather large bottle. It was a litter and a half of Niteberg Cabinet savignon which was being served at the dinner, and it had the presidential crest on the bottle. And I said, where'd you get that from?
Jim?
And he said, oh, that waiter over there, he said, would you like a souvenir? So he gave gave Jim this bottle. So I thought, Bugger that if he can get it, I can get it as well. So I went over to the waiter and said, look, was there any chance I'm from New Zealand? Can I take a souvenir? He gave me a bottle. I still have mine. I think Jim drunk is a long time ago.
Fortunately, looking at Jim Bulger's legacy, what considered his most enduring contributions to New Zealand because it didn't stop after he stepped back from being a Prime minister and National Party leader.
Hey no, well he became an ambassador after that to Washington. But I think you know that government will be remembered more than anything else for its settlement treaty process, because you know, one would think that Labor would be the party that would settle, but it was really that National Government with Doug Graham that set about settling these grievances.
And interestingly he pulled the rug from beneath the unions in the time that he was in office, introducing the Employment Contracts Act, and that's sort of sideline unions to a large extent, and it was very controversial. But then lo and behold. A number of years later he fell out with a lot of his National Party colleagues because he chaired the committee that saw the free the Countment at Fair Pay, the Fair Pay agreements which brought the unions back full force into play and welcome by the
ardun government. And he also became chair of Kiwi Rail under I think it was Helen Clark that he was offered that job. So there were plenty of jobs that came Jim Bolger's way post politics.
Tell me what happened behind the scenes when Bolger resigned as Prime minister. That was in ninety seven. Hey, I read his press release from the time announcing it, and he said, having now completed over seven years as Prime Minister, nearly twelve years as leader of the National Party and fourteen years as minister, changing circumstances make it appropriate for me to step down as Prime minister. What were those changing circumstances?
It was a knife in his back, a changing circumstance held by Jenny Shipley and White Creechure, who was became her deputy. He was a cabinet minister. But I was in Europe with Jim Bulger when they did the numbers back home here, and we all knew that time was running out for Bulger in terms of his popularity within his own caucus, and as a result they did the numbers when he was overseas. The hapless Doug Graham was sent to the airport to give Jim Bulger the news
when he arrived back in the country. Now, I stayed on in Europe because I had some friends in Germany, thinking that he won't be rolled this year. It was late in the year, he'll be rolled the following year. Well, I was called in the middle of the night in Germany to say Jim Bulger's gone. It was unbelievable that even he he resisted right up until the last moment. And that press statement is a typical political press statement.
I know the man who wrote it very well and yet colored over what was really a backstabbing exercise in the National Party. And as a result, Jumie Shipley and Jim Volgon never really saw right Why after that.
Time, Missus Speaker, I didn't have the privilege of knowing Jim well personally, but since becoming Prime Minister, I received a few quiet phone calls from him. They were short, sincere and thoughtful. He offered encouragement, perspective and advice, advice that I took seriously. And I also remember campaigning with him in a bar. And why can I and him still holding court in a room full of people, sharp as ever, fully engage, loving politics and very much enjoying himself.
He just turned eighty seven.
What have other politicians said about him?
Well, I've been listening to them, Dan Even and Ruth Richardson, you know, put the nice gloss on her sacking. As I said earlier that she said she had finished the business. Well, she really wanted to continue the business, but Bolger decided otherwise after being pressured by his own cabinet colleagues. So yeah, he was. The other politicians that I've heard is John Key. Well John k never really was in politics when Jim
Bolger was there, but he had dealings with me. He said that Jim used to call him from time to time and not read the Riot Act, but point out where he could maybe have gone better or perform better. And I'm sure he's never been backward and forward and giving his views, including to me when I stepped out of line. He was pretty pretty trench into his criticism. But generally, I think those who remember Jim Bolger remember him as a really good bloke. I mean, he was a.
Nice man, farming kind right.
Yeah, Well, the I think and I really feel today for his lovely wife, Joan. Joan was I used to say long suffering, but she loved him implicitly and vice versa. And Joan. You know, I remember on election campaigns that Jim would be out on the hustings and he'd be giving the same speech essentially night after night, and Joan would be sitting in the front row laughing at the jokes that she had heard last night. So I thought,
you are long suffering. But she's a remarkable woman. And of course he had nine children, and I'm really pleased to hear that the nine children were with him, along with the wonderful Joan and a number of his eighteen grandchildren.
Wow. How so we mentioned Winston Peters before, obviously, and it was a funny that you say that he's always been the king Maker, right. I remember I was looking up old newspapers for another story that I was doing back in the day. I think it was about missing people of New Zealand, and I was flicking through the papers any information about these missing people, and there was Winston on the front page, with a lot more hair,
a lot darker, and across at Kingmaker. I saw that Winston Peters said in a statement, everyone with a knowledge of New Zealand political history from the late eighties to early nineties will know that the two of us sometimes had our policy differences. Exclamation mark.
Well, no doubt about it. You know that Winston's not the easiest of characters, and you know he's pretty Trenchant in his views, and Bolger knew that Bolger was reluctant to even have Winston in his cabinet before when Winston was part of the National Party, but Winston was out polling Bulger at the time, and I remember saying to Jim when he became Prime minister, you've got to have Winston in your cabinet, and he gave him a portfolio
that Winston was never really comfortable with MOLDI affears, so it was probably a bit of a slap in the face for Winston. But lot, Winston and Bolger got on really well. And indeed, you know Winston with most like with Helen Clark got on very well as well. So like or dislike his politics, he's a consummate politician, There's no doubt about that.
Thanks for joining us, Barry, my pleasure. That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at ensidherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts and tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.