Kiyota.
I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a daily podcast.
Presented by The New Zealand Herald.
The days of simply ticking a box to confirm your age online are over. The UK has become one of the first countries to make it harder for Internet users to consume pornography by requiring age of verification measures in an effort to prevent under eighteens from viewing explicit content. The move has sparked concern though, about users giving even more data and personal information to tech companies, and has raised questions.
About whether the process actually works.
So, with these new laws gaining popularity overseas, could it happen here in New Zealand and how do we do it properly?
Today?
On the Front Technology Users Association of New Zealand CEO Craig Young is with us to discuss how to balance safety with privacy online. First off, Craig, we're talking about this after the UK announced new laws around accessing porn last month. Now, for those who may not have seen this, can you explain what they actually are?
So the number of jurisdictions around the world are concerned about you know how children getting access to parts of the Internet that perhaps their parents and guardians aren't that happy about. And so in the UK they pass the Online Safety Act, and in this Act it is all around access to content on the web, and so the rules came into place on the twenty fifth of July, particular on pornography, although that's not actually defined in the Act.
What's happened is that they have put in place or anybody that's pining information that could harm could be harmful, or could be content that parents don't want their children to see, they're put in place age verification. So basically, when you log into a website, it's going to ask you to verify your age. And no longer will it be enough just to tick a box to say I'm over eighteen, because as we know, it's one of the easiest things to get around. It will have to be
some formal way of certifying your age. So that's what they've put in place.
So what kind of technology is being used by these sites to try and at least get some age verification.
Well, there's a variety of ways that you can do this. I mean, let's start off by just saying age is a very blunt tool, particularly if you have sites that might have information on it that you want young people to get to, but might be a little bit out
there that some parents aren't overly happy with. But perhaps there are some parents who want their kids to see and we're not talking pornography here, we're talking about you know, sex, sex education, sexualize, you know, learning about sexuality, etc. They would be caught by this if by a blunt tool, which is age and there are a number of ways of doing this. Perhaps the scariest one is facial recognition.
So that is.
Where you have to allow the site or the or the age verification tool to see your face. There are people that you know can full that sort of technology because you might look young. But also, you know, do you really want some device or some site on the internet actually getting a look at your child's face or your own face for someone like me and for yourself. You know, we are semi public figures. We are on
the internet, you know, we have LinkedIn pages. But there will be adults that really do not want to share their their face. There are parents who do not want to have their kids on the internet or to be captured by these sorts of things. So look, that's probably one extreme and then there are a range of others, and certainly in the UK they've sort of identified six or seven different ways in which you can do this. Some of those are things like, you know, using the
mobile number that you're using on the device. So the device you go onto website, the site asks your mobile carrier says, this phone number is trying to get onto my site? Are they eighteen or under? And so that puts the onus on the mobile company, for example. That's one way of doing it.
But another kids have phones under their parents' plans though these days.
Right, that is right?
And so do you have to find a way around that? And so does that mean that the mobile company has to ask you when you're putting it in you know, what is the age of the person using this phone? What is the birth that Look, i haven't signed up for a mobile service for a long time, so I'm really not sure whether whether I've said that, but they've probably got my birth date somewhere.
We're not sadenesstoring anyone. We've got some measures which are there to protect children's I don't see that as a free speech issue.
I see that as a child protection.
We actually passed the bill in Congress head it up by my wife actually, which was to pull bad stuff out having to do with children because it is a problem. But I cannot imagine how's answering truth social this war of a very political and you know, it's been a very big success.
So yeah, So that sort of information that you're now having to hand over to a third party around that sort of data about you. You know, we all know that the way people get access to our data is by knowing certain things about us, So like our name,
maybe a passport number, maybe a birth dated birth. You know, a lot of the time it particularly early on, you know, to date a birth that you use to validate yourself on a site that's been hacked, you know, if you're giving it over, So there has to be new and different ways of doing it. So that's another way. Another way that could be done is through adult filters, where you're doing it through your internet connection, or it could be using an age verification tool, which is a completely
different website or app that you validate your age. So you might have to insert you might have to send them a picture of your passport or a birth certificate, some really critical piece of information which they can then certify so that when you go to a site, the site can then query the third party. And basically what they do is they go is this person eating or over? They're not asking who is this person? What's their birthdate
or any like that. They're just saying is this person And if the age certification goes yes, then you let it. If it says no, you're not. So it's a pretty binary answer, right. The question is that third party holding on to your data? Are they keeping hold of your passport copy? Are they keeping hold your best are they holding your birth date for example? And there is a
variety of these. Some of them we don't know, and some of them they're saying, yes, we're only going to look at that data once set it up in our system and then delete it. I don't know about you. Some people I might really might be happy about having my data, perhaps my airline, but not sure about some of these other organizations that are doing this. So you know,
there's a trust level you have to find. And so what the UKB said is off comm have said, which is the regulator in the UK, here's seven such or seven ways that you can use. And then the user, which is some like US can decide when we go to a site, if they ask us for something, we can go no, I'm not prepared to give you that information, so you won't have access. Or it might be they use a different certain way of certifying your age. You go, yep,
I'm happy with that. I'll get access to it. So yeah, there's a range of ways of doing it.
The UK isn't the only country talking about this though and.
Implementing laws like this. Half of the US.
States now require age verification, and the EU is also rolling out laws across the block.
Why is this suddenly trending?
I think what we're seeing is a recognition that the way our kids, in particular those that have grown up in the in the time of smartphones, the way they're accessing the Internet, and the way the sites, particularly you know, social media sites are controlling using algorithms, you know, the way they hook people in and keep them in. I mean, who of us, even at my advanced age, hasn't got stuck at some point going down rabbit holes or scrolling reels.
You know, as much as we think we're in control, you know, there are things that all this looks interesting, This looks interesting, This looks interesting and it just hooks you in. And so what we're saying is this is not working for our kids. This is not a positive influence on them. And it's that's I think, you know, we are starting to think we've got to do something, and I think that's where it really comes down to politicians, right, So we do we advocate the politicians. Politicians like to
see things in black and white. You know, we want to do something, so we want to be seen to be doing something. What can we do all the easiest thing we can do is put an age limit on it. And obviously in the States, in the US, you know, there is also a geopolitical move to less state control
and more parental control. So you start to see that flow through the European unions different they are allowing each of their countries to implement their own national bands, but they're also working together to come up with an EU age verification app, so their own app, so that has all sorts of implications with it. And then of course a cross in Australia, this is probably the one that's
closest to us. They are probably putting in the world's strictest laws around media, around age restrictions, so from December, social media platforms that they designate the government designates age restricted must take reasonable steps to prevent children under sixteen from creating accounts on their services. So it is a you know, a broad band. They've defined it as Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, x TikTok. They weren't going to do YouTube, but they
are now they've brought that into that. So basically it doesn't prevent children from sixteen under sixteen viewing it, but they won't be able to have their own accounts. So that's the way they're doing it. But that's pretty tough and you can be fined up to fifty million Australian dollars for not complying with the new rule, so you know, they are pretty stiff penalties.
What I mean when I see these debates going on, I mean I don't have children, and my friends don't have children of the age to be able to access these things, right, But I think where is the level of parental responsibility when it comes to kids on social media, kids being able to get access to a computer, kids seeing porn.
It's a really good question because it pulls into a question a couple of things. One is, you know how much control parents can have. There are questions that you have to ask around at, particularly once they get into that teenage stage. You know, as a blanket ban on anything somebody thinks is harmful, and that's the problem. Someone has to definitely define harmful. Is that a good way of helping our young people understand their own selves and their lives and how to live in this current world?
Now?
I think you you know, somewhere in their parental control is really important, and the relationship between parents and their kids is critical. Unfortunately, we know not everybody has a parent who's engaged, who's involved, or even who is present.
So you know, it's a really tricky one. And how can we you know, particularly if those teenagers in those formative years need information as they try and find their sense in the world and the only place they can go is the internet, or if they're unsafe and they need to make connection somewhere people know they're unsafe. By putting an age ban on, we take away a whole lot of material and information and good stuff that they
might need. So, yeah, it's such a difficult one and obviously we're not I'm not in favor of blanket ban by age even though I understand that it's such a simple thing as parents and as adults to understand just do it, you know.
But it's not simple. It's a simple solution.
Yeah, And I mean I'm thinking back, if you tell sixteen year old Chelsea she's not allowed to do.
Something, that's all she's gonna want to do.
The UK recently rolled out strictly age verification rules, making people snap real time selfies to access adult sites. Understandably, a lot of people aren't thrilled about having to scan their face every time they want to browse something eighteen plus. Now, in classic Internet fashion, some teams have found a work around using Death Stranding's ultra realistic photo mode. Samport of Bridges aka Norman Readers looks real enough in the game
to trick facial recognition software into letting people through. Players have even been switching up his facial expressions to dodge anti spoofing chats.
And I mean, I see that there are already ways around it, right.
So in the UK there's been a huge surgeon what's called VPN app downloads. So that's the thing where you kind of can trick the Internet into thinking you're logging on from somewhere else. Right on day one day last week, half of the top ten free applications in Apple's charts in the UK were for these services VPN services, and one app maker told the BBC it had seen a one thousand, eight hundred percent spike in downloads.
Would this actually work? Is this a workaround?
Yeah?
Well, I mean some of their research has come out of the UK said that, you know, sixty eight percent of UK teens have actually used a VPN to bypass age gates. So VPN or virtual Private network is where you sign up to service and it basically anonymizes you to the Internet. And now look, they have valid uses, so like if you're sitting you're sitting in a cafe in somewhere that's perhaps not overly friendly to Western or where you're from, or you just trying to get on
your bank or something back home. You know, VPN is a great way of keeping yourself secure and safe, but it is also able to be used to bypass these sorts of things. So you're right, and that's just a very simple way around it. There are any number of ways that you know, a clever person will work out
how to get around it. And let's be honest, sixteen year old Chelsea would have been incredibly smart and she would have worked it out or found somebody in her circle of friends that's done it right and going well, how do I do this? And you would have all worked it out. That's an example of I mean, we don't know whether they're using the VPN to access material that they shouldn't or access material that they should have accessed to but can't, so you know, you can't you can't make that.
It could also be adults just not wanting to their face on their I mean kinky interests online if it structs as well.
That's absolutely right, and maybe they want to use their real name on a site somewhere, so yeah, you've got that thing as well. But certainly, you know, it's just a very simple way of you know, working out how to get around it. And I think that is the big problem when you look at these types of things is how easy is it to circumvent? And if you are removing information and making this blanket band, you are almost encouraging people to find ways around it rather than educating them on why.
Is this the case?
Yeah, what should we be doing instead?
And do you do you see New Zealand going down the same path or do you reckon that?
We're we'll come up with something better.
New Zealand, there is I mean, we already have Harmful Communications Regulation and Act. We don't have a digital safety regulator. We don't have We rely heavily on the Privacy Commission and the Privacy Commission. They do amazing stuff, amazing work, but they don't have a lot of teeth when it comes to some of these things. I am often asked by parents, you know, what can I do? And also
what's your perspective on this? And as someone in the tech industry, you know, I understand the difficulty and the complexity of the issue. As an organization, the Tech Users Association, we want people to use digital technology. We want young people to understand this. We need more women Maori Pakiha, you know, Pacifica. We need more people in tech so they've got our stand how to use this stuff and live well with it. So putting a blanket band doesn't
help that either. There are things that you could do, but I think what we want to do is we're going to do a technological way around this. We need to do it here in New Zealand. And bring it as close as possible, rather than relying on these big companies that are trying to drive interaction and engagement through their algorithms.
Thanks for joining us, Craig, no.
Problems, Chelsea.
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enziherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.