Zac Blair on Northern California Golf

I miss the green.

For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a bright egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, fridagg egg egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.

To Northwood is so sick?

Yeah? What? So we went on that trip Lake mercaid S F Golf, Cal Club, Olympic Club, Northwood Meadow Club, Pasa Tempo and PCC Dunes and pack Grove. What overall thoughts.

I would just say, I think I didn't give San Francisco area enough credit for how amazing the golf is. Like it's kind of a power player.

Yeah, I would agree, especially because like we didn't hit up a few, like we played the nine hole course at Olympic Club, but then we also didn't hit up Claremont Club or you know some of the other you know, Prestidio, I kind of wanted to see after I heard the history of it, Glenn Eagle, Glen Eagle, you know, we walked around Sharp Park. What'd you think of that?

I think it's another one that I was kind of blown away when you're driving over the hill to go.

Check that place out.

You're just like kind of blown away with that could be like a public golf course, you know what I mean, with the setting that it's in right by the beach and everything like that, Like it could be so good.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a shame that it is in the current shape it is, and it's it's I mean, there's like a cool little like public tour you could do in San Francisco for people that wanted to like get kind of deep on mackenzie because you could go do Northwood in Sharp Park, which are kind of you know, abused Mackenzie's, but then you could go play Pasa Tiempo, which is unreal, and then you could you could tie it in and play Pack Grove And I think the

Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but if you wanted to see like what having good bones is, I think like Northwood is like the place you would want to see of any course that I've ever been to, with kind of the hollowed out bunkers that are grassed over and you can see like where the greens extended to. I mean it's very easy to see how good that place was without being like super into golf course architecture.

Yeah, I think, like I think one of the things people ask me all the time, like how can you figure out like good bones is like looking at like greens and seeing you know, there's always like a pad that you can see with a green, you know where it used to extend to. So start to look at the corners of the greens you're playing and look to see like is there a distinct pad that this green

Yeah, it's pretty wild.

Yeah, it's in talking to a couple of architects. They you know, people say it it wouldn't take much to get those those bunkers dug out and it then playable. But it was interesting talking to the guy the pro shop afterwards and how he wasn't sure if people would like that. I kind of was miffed.

Yeah, that was pretty weird hearing that guy say that, because I think golf is just I always go back.

To this, but golf is just one of those things where there's always going to be people that aren't great at golf, so it's hard to always cater to someone like that, saying like, well, if I dig this bunker out here like now, guys are going to be hitting into it and you know they're not going to enjoy their round as much. But then there's the flip side of that that there's people kind of like us out there that would love to see it.

So it's kind of a I was kind of blown away when he said that too.

There's people that suck at everything, like every sport, it's okay that people suck.

Yeah, for sure.

I think part of what makes golf so special is that people suck, you know, and you're never really conquering it no matter what level you play it.

Yeah, like everyone sucks at you know at times.

There's obviously people that are worse more often, but it's like, I mean I've had times where I suck.

Yeah, I suck more often than I'm good. So let's kind of dive into their favorite stretches of holes. So I had you and I did the same thing. Pick out the best three hole stretches, so the best are not the best, Our favorite one through three, our favorite four through six, Favorite seven through nine, ten through twelve, thirteen through fifteen, and sixteen through eighteen. And with that we're going to count Northwood and the back nine at

Yeah, So I kicked the round off with SF club.

One through three megawith.

Super super whipped. Nice way to start out the round. It's like you're probably not going to miss that fair way too often, and if you hit a good drive, you kind of have the opportunity to get the round started off with a with a birdie.

So the rules out there are with the no cell phone, no yardage finder. It's kind of crazy, you're going back in time a little bit. But like that's a perfect example of like not really knowing where the green was. We both missed way right there. It was the worst place you could be.

Yeah, exactly. That that's uh, I mean, that's something that.

I wish like the Cabby would have just said, like, hey, you're you're okay to miss in that left bunker, Like that left bunker would have been and like a really easy up and down to the pin we were playing, and then the right the right side fell off so hard and we were all just so.

Dead over there.

Yeah, it was just short sided down like in a gully. So I went one through three Medal Club. You know, there's something about that second hole going down with like the layered bunkers behind it, and you can see all those greens that I just loved. And then I love the third hole that I hit that sick approach shot to and birdied, and but that green, that green's awesome. I think that Metal Club is, like, it's such a cool little place there.

Yeah.

I was lucky enough to play it in a bunch of college you know, every year in college basically we had an event up there, and it's really really cool.

Yeah, So what about four through six?

Four through six, I went with Northwood, Oh sweet little stretch. Like the sixth hole was maybe my favorite hole on the entire trip.

So I had to get that the hole in this routing somehow.

Yeah that if they brought those bunkers back, we'll put we'll put the uh, your little rendering of of what it is and what you if you just filled in the bunkers that are hollowed out to show people like what we mean by good bones in there.

Yeah, that was that was pretty sick. And even the four and five were really cool holes too. That fourth hole that kind of dogleg right, I mean we were playing it with the Hickory's so we got to really see, you know, what it was.

And then I thought five was a really cool part.

Five.

Yeah, that was another one with the bunkers along that right side that were gone and you could see like, oh this is this could be really cool.

Sweet Green too.

Oh unreal. I think it was missing like a really deep bunker on the right side. I've watched the drone fly over a couple of times.

Northwood is like I like still have dreams about that place.

I know, it's insane.

It's funny because you know, we texted all, you know, we go on this like crazy, long, unbelievable golf trip that people would dream of, like you know, and we play Cal Club and SF and and Meadow and Pasa Tiempo NPCC, all these like you know, really well thought of golf courses that bucket listers and like the course I think we talked about the most before the trip was Northwood and then it's probably the course we talk

It's insane. It's like a very eye opening experience. It was so cool.

I wish I could spend a couple of days out there, just keep going around and see it when it's a little when it's not winter and it's not so wet.

Yeah, I think we should scoop back out to San Francisco in the fall and see these places is a little with a little more fire in them. Maybe check out the Bohemian Grove.

To see if they let usin. Yeah, that's what I was on the Golf Guide podcast and they the kid is from Northern California, and he said that the Bohemian Grove has the original drawing of Northwood, like the original plant, but they they're holding them hostage in there. You got to talk to Gary Record.

Get those get those plants.

Just bring him out.

Yeah. I got four through six at SFGC. I like that that long par three, and then I like how you've got the those part fours. Really you got to hit good golf shots on those part fours, especially the six that I love the fairway how it goes down to the left, and then that green is nasty.

Yeah, dude's six is very very cool.

It's you know, run runner up there. I'd say fourth through six at col club's pretty cool too.

Yeah.

I had that written down and then then I put s F and then I just remembered Northwood number six and was like absolutely that's what I'm That's what I'm rolling with.

So what do you got for seven through nine?

Seventh through nine? I uh threw in the metal club.

Some cool uh, some cool holes that are that are definitely pretty unique.

I thought they were awesome.

Yeah, that little natural like creek they used for that seventh hole, it's pretty sweet. And then uh eight cool par three nine cool, par part four.

Nine nine is sweet.

And I think if they had the T in the right position there, I think the t, you know, they had to find yardage for that hole to get it, to get it a little longer where guys couldn't carry that those left bunkers. But if you played from like the correct angle, I think it's such a sick t shot. How those left fairway bunkers kind of just blend into the green side bunkering and it just looks like one big diagonal hazard.

Yeah, you got to hit a good drive there and then you still like if it I played there with a Hickory and I still had like a I feel like I had like a four or five iron into that green, which was Yeah, it was a beast. I went seventh through nine at Northwood. I really like that seventh hole that kind of dog likes, right, and that green you can tell is pretty cool. The par three eighth is unreal, that green. And then nine going back up I really liked.

Yeah, with that huge bunker that was like one hundred and fifty yards off the tee that just swallows up any golf ball that heads to it.

That's not there anymore.

Yeah, I mean that thing was like a true three shot par five back in the day too, Like I think I went Hickory Hickory Wedge.

Yeah, that hole was cool, full place.

Man.

I know I keep talking about it, but I want to go back up there, like tomorrow.

I almost went out to Northern California this week for something, and I was like, oh man, that'd be sweet to be because I was going to have to go up to Napa and I was like, I'll be close to Northwood. I could go over there again.

Abs ten through twelve.

I threw in SF club again because ten was another one of my favorite holes on the trip. I thought eleven was a sweet part three, and then that twelve hole was again like I mean, I keep repeating myself, but twelve is such a sick hole.

I think with just twelve it would you could put nothing holes before that and SF would still get it. So I have ten through twelve too, Like twelve might be one of the best part fours I've ever seen.

Yeah, in the entire world.

Yeah, it was so funny how we both ended up in that bunker and the Caddy was was pissed at us.

I the caty was, but the Caddy was so wrong on that yard age.

She was like, it's two fifty five, but it plays uphill, you know, and it played a little into the wind. Or I don't even know what he said. He said, it's two forty five, but it's the longest two forty five in the world. And I'm like, well, I can carry it to forty five, and I smoked one didn't even come close to carrying it.

Then I go back home and look on Google Earth and.

It was like two seventy eight, and I was like, I don't even hit it too seventy eight anywhere, let alone foggy San Francisco.

So just that bad information.

Yeah, you didn't carry it, and I was like, ah, yeah, probably I could probably carry it, and I hit it right into it.

Yeah, that whole is cool, and it's so funny because there's so much room left that it's just like you should never in a million years hit it in that bunker.

But I mean that's like a perfect exam pull of a hole with like the technology thing is like if like Dustin Johnson can just carry that with like a three wood and just like the modern distance thing is like, so that hole loses like all the strategy. But if that bunker is uncarriable, they you have to make a decision. Are you playing short and giving up yardage or and having the perfect angle, or are you playing left and and taking more yardage and and have just a like kind of a blind shot.

In Yeah, yeah, I really like that whole.

What'd you Got? What do you Have? For thirteen through fifteen?

H thirteen through fifteen I went with Posse Tiampo SAMs. Yeah really yeah, I really like thirteen that part man, Like, I hope you I help people have watched like the drone video of that hole that you have. It's like that that green complex is just out of control, so beautiful and so cool. And then fourteen very cool hole with the like natural looking chasm, you know, the big dip in the fair way. Yeah, and then fifteen is that sick little part three.

I haven't posted any drone video of that yet, so maybe I'll try and get something done for the spot. But yeah, that I mean that stretch a hole. It's like you got a great risk reward par five, you got an awesome just stout Par four that's got tons of strategy, and then you got a like a little nasty par three. So I'm in the same boat. And then what are you doing to close out the round?

I went with cal club another cool little part three and sixteen a gettable par five and seventeen, But at the same time, you can kind of you could make bogies on both of those holes pretty easy if you hit a bad shot. Eighteen going back to the clubhouses, I thought was a pretty cool finish.

I wrapped it up with pasta tempo sixteen through eighteen. I just couldn't couldn't pass up on having yeah, sixteen, and I have an happy people rag on seventeen. I kind of like really like seventeen.

Yeah, man, when I saw when I saw the original aerials of that place without all the trees on the right, and there was this nasty set of bunkers kind of down there right where you hit your drives on the right in between ten and seventeen. Fairway, like you kind of have a better appreciation for that whole how you got to hug it up the left side so the ball doesn't roll down into that bunker, and then you know, you kind of have a better view of that grain.

That's a dude.

Pasta Tampa, the whole course in the back nine, everything there is ridiculous.

I was looking.

I was looking at the rankings the other day and Pasta Tampa is not in the top one hundred.

Like I was actually offended. It's criminal, absolutely, Like that's like a top fifteen golf course in America.

So I always say it could be a top fifteen if it was an exclusive club.

I still think it is right now.

I don't know, sick, I don't know what is it better than SF Club? No, So that's I mean, that's the I mean the way I look at Passa tempo is I think like architecturally, if you want to play a golf course, like a Golden Age golf course, it's the undisputed number one that a public can play, that the public can play. Yeah, I need to play Pinehurst number two still though.

Too so Pinehurst is solid. It's good.

You would you put Passo over Pinehurst?

I enjoy Passa or I think it. But dude, again, I don't know. These are such hard discussions to have because they're both so good. They're both in that category that you're like, I would go play them, you know what I mean?

How about our how about our experience at Pacific Growth.

Yeah, that was like everything you don't want to have happened inside the golf shop kind of happened. I think, you know, it was kind of our fault for not I just didn't think it would be like crazy busy, but obviously like seventy five Sonny on a Saturday afternoon is.

Kind of like prime time for people to go off.

Yeah. So we we showed up there at like three or so, and we wanted to just play the back nine and we get there and it was like packed, and the guy you know, in the shop, was like, yeah, I can't get you out. So we decided to walk. And we we walk out there and like, sure.

Well you've got to tell them about you got to you gotta inform them about how We were like do you think we could go just walk the back nine?

And the guy was like I don't know, Like that would be tough for me to let have happen.

And we were like, man, we'll be like courteous.

We're not going to get in anybody's way.

And he was like, ah, I guess and he really just like did not want us to be out there.

He was crazy.

So so we walk out and there's like a foursome on ten and which is like a nothing part three, and we like turned the corner at the green and there's like this single guy walking down the eleventh fairway towards like the green that's set into the dune and and Zach looks at me and he's like, dude, go get go get some clubs. And he runs down the fairway and I run back to the car to get the club. So how did how did the discussion go with our single?

Yeah?

I just kind of went up to him and he could tell he could hear me running from like fifty yards out and he looked back and you could tell he was so confused. He was like, am I in trouble? Like somebody like chasing after this kid? What's going on? And I got up to him and was like, hey man, you know my name is Zach Blair. And he's like, Zach Blair, you play on the PJ Tour And I was like, yeah, would you mind if me and a friend joined you for the back nine?

And he was like, you want to join me out here? And I was like yeah, like we came.

Out to roll around pat Grove for the night. And he was like, well, yeah, absolutely, you can join us.

And he was so cool.

He was like a perfect person you want to meet on the golf course to play with that you've never met before, you know, as complete stranger. That ended up being one of the coolest guys we played with it on the entire trip.

You know, he just you could tell he got it. He got architecture, like he had like a hinch headcover. But then he was asking us questions and he found out like he worked in the bay. He's like, yeah, I played Pacific Grove all the time when I and I think he had moved to Austin, but he was in town and played Pacific Grove a bunch and then uh, after the Yeah, after the round, he posted a picture of the exact same picture. He was taking some pictures.

Yeah, he did catch the hickory fever.

I think I think we're kind of like, uh, I've got I've gotten a lot of people sick with the hick fever.

It's insane.

I'm thinking about getting crooked with like Louisville Golf getting. You know, I might start selling hickory out of my trunk when I go places. Hey, kid, come here, let me let me so. Let me tell you about this hickory. You don't want that new Calway driver, You want hickory. But yeah, it's just like a whole different way to play the game. I don't really think like everybody is like, oh, it would make bad golfers so much worse. I don't really think it would.

Yeah, I mean, this sounds so mean and it sounds bad, but like the people that suck, like not a.

Lot of stuff helps them get that much better.

So it's it's.

Kind of a weird. It's a weird little topic to talk about.

Yeah, it's a it's a touchy one, for sure.

It was so funny I got. I got this one story about the Hickory's. It's like classic. So I was down at the pro member the other day at Seminole and we were at the dinner and I had this discussion with Jack Nicholas about the golf ball and he was kind.

Of telling me his plan and everything.

Like that, and you know, I was just kind of talking to him basically saying how some of the classic courses are kind of being dwarfed a little bit and guys can just hit it so far. And I told him that I had recently started kind of playing with Hickory's when I play casual golf, and he.

Was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know how good that is or you know, anything like that. He's like I thought he would be, like, you know, because sometimes when I tell that to people. They're like, oh, man, that's.

So cool that you would, you know, want to see how the you know, game was intended to be played and how these these you know, Golden Age architects kind of laid out these holes based on where people were hitting it. And he was like, yeah, yeah, I don't know much about that.

I don't want to get involved with that. Let me tell you about let me tell you about my idea with the golf ball good.

You've had a couple of good run ins with Jack, including the memorial hot tug.

You know, yeah, he's a he's kind of and him have some great some great stories. I have three really good ones. I have the hot tub story, that Hickory one.

And then one time I was at the Ryder Cup dinner at his house.

And it was like me and a couple guys and he was asking everybody how they played. And I had just shot eighty that day at UH at Honda. It was like so hard, the wind was blowing. I played like ship and he was like, so, how'd you play? And I was like, I shot eighty and he's like, oh, that's not good.

I was like, thanks, Jack, I'm aware.

The Golden Bear man. You know, he's just trying to do He's that on your level?

No, No, he's it was. Those are three of my favorite stories and they all have to do with Jack Nicholas, So he's the man.

Where's the where's the next Blair Wish project?

I think we uh, I think we're going Boston tea party hunting.

There's some any good ones there?

Yeah, we gotta we got a sick little trip lined up for that one. It's gonna be pretty epic.

I think there's a I mean, the crazy thing about Boston is how you could find like a million scruffy little ross gems out there.

Yeah.

Boston and Long Island are both that way. Like, I feel like you could go to either of those areas and just play golf for a month at courses you've never heard of, and you would find like a ton of places.

That you love.

Are there any good public courses out on Long Island that are like, I know they used to have that gil Hands like tall Grass or whatever it was called, but some solar power plant took it over.

Yeah, maybe Long Island might be in the more of the private sector, but I don't know are they Are they public in Boston.

Yeah, well there's some. I mean, you got like the George Wright place that I guess they got the mass Am this year. But then by Catanta there's that little nine hole Marion that's George Thomas's first course, which and they still have like the Stone Walls.

Sick that's my favorite.

Yeah, but I don't know, there's too much good golf to explore. I think that you could do the same thing for a number of cities. I think San Francisco though, if you were ranking cities, has got to be top four.

Yeah, what are you What are you throwing in there? Are you throwing? Obviously Long Island like New York?

It's true?

Do you where do you delineate? Is it New York City? Is Long Island its own? Is Monterey part of San Francisco?

Yeah, I kind of.

I had this discussion with this guy that writes for like the San Francisco Chronicle the other day kind of talking about that. I don't know, you gotta you gotta do some sort of like a radius, I guess, but I mean Long Island in itself. Yeah, I guess you're not calling that a big city though, So I don't know. But San Francisco, even if you're not even if you're not including Pasa or any of the Pebble Beach Monterey scene, like San Francisco is pretty good.

Yeah, I think I think you got to have New York and Philly one two.

Yeah, so you're counting you're counting Long Island for New York obviously.

Yeah, I'm gonna count Pine Valley for Philly too.

Yeah, it's like twenty minutes away, so.

And then and then I think you could count Pasa but not Monterey. Monterey is like two hours from San Francisco.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

And are we throwing Are we throwing Phoenix Scottsdale in there or no?

I'm just kidding not not. I think Chicago would be. So I always go back and forth with Chicago because I feel like after Chicago Golf and Short Acres, we've got like a massive drop off and like, you know, Old ELM's really good, so like but like then it's kind of like you're kind of like, uh, would it be better than like if you had Pasta Tiempo in with San Francisco, Like if you have cal Club SF Pasa Tiempo Olympic Club, like Olympic club kind of.

I don't know.

I haven't played it yet, so I've passed judgment on it.

I think Olympic is a little better than than we're than you think.

Yeah, I do too.

I think that the bunkering that they did there has kind of like made it probably too hard and the bunkers are just diabolical now.

But I think it's pretty good.

So I would I would say that San Francisco it takes the cake over Chicago. Chicago's great because of the depth. You know, like are from ten to twenty five. We're like really.

Strong, but you have a super deep bench.

Yeah, we're like the team that you know is really good in the NBA. But then they get then the playoffs, the bench gets shorter, you know, and only seven guys play and we get just we get smoked, annihilated. It's like the bulls.

I'm thinking about this right here.

What is a good like what's a good cutoff for number of great courses you have to have to be in this conversation, would you say it's like five or or like seven?

I think you have to have you have to have some top end firepower, but you still have to have some depth, Like you can't like your number ten course can't be like a dump. Not a dump.

Talk about this right now, really quick, just because this is a good topic to talk about.

So do you want to talk about this?

This is something good.

You can cut this out or whatever, but I think this is this is good to talk about.

I think this is I think making a you know, this could be the next iteration of logo madness.

Absolutely.

So what we're talking about here is we're gonna go New York, Philly, San Francisco, and I think if this is I think Boston has to be in this discussion.

Yeah.

The more I'm the more I'm thinking about it. So we'll do.

Those four, Chicago's, five.

Boston, and then shy Town.

Then like a perfect example is LA where you have high end, top top tier golf, but then you've got to fall off.

Yeah, so La is like the opposite of Chicago, the complete opposite. It's got like some first round picks, lottery picks, but then it just has no bench at all. Right, we'll talk about l A just for a sec too. So if we're going n y C, we're.

Obviously going like like shinny.

National Maidstone, winged.

Foot Maidstone, winged foot.

Quaker Ridge, Quaker, Sabonic, Friar's Head.

Savanna Friars. I mean, I mean.

Fishers, Fishers right there.

So that's two four eight, that's eight piping rock, best best page, I mean, and it's just silly, Beth, what I mean, you could just like I think you could go forever.

Yeah, we're just they're just a clear number one.

Yeah, they have Philly you're talking. You got like Pev Marion, Marion Ironomic.

Philly Cricket, Philly Cricket, Golf Mills, Manny's Rolling Green, like you've got like this stretch of unreal Flynn Courses. You've got Rolling Green, You've got Philly Country Club, You've got Huntington Valley, you've got Lancaster. If you you know it's it'd be about as far as like the Hampton's would be. And then you've got uh, You've got then you've got like a bunch of moderns too. You've got cool like I really like apple Brook, which is a hand and

So Philly is like a clear number two.

I think it's got it's probably got as much top end firepower.

As New York.

No, I don't think so.

TV Marion Ironomic Philly Cricket. Like that's four solid ones and you've got Shinny National.

New York's got like ten, and and Philly's got four.

New York's like like an all star squad.

Yeah, if you put if you put Chicago, Philly and Boston together, it would be like New York almost.

Yeah, so Phillies New York's like a beast.

Maybe New York versus the all of California would be a good matchup.

New York versus the world, New York versus everybody.

And we're just like playing into New Yorker's ego right now.

And then oh shit, like falseester all.

I don't know if he can it can? Does that count?

Yeah?

It's in New Jersey, but I mean it's like just as close. I think you do, like the New York metro area, right, I mean that's the same thing.

It's in the met right.

Going to add TV to Philly.

Maybe it should be based off of the Golf Association. Oh yes, like the METS, the and the Northern California Golf Association. This is we might have to do more thought into this. This could be a whole article.

Slash discussion is exactly well, we might as well finish this off right now.

SF, you go, SF Club.

Cal Club, Cal Club, Meadow Club.

Pasa Meadow, Pasa Olympic.

Claremont.

I think Claremont.

I think it's sick, but I think we're like kind of starting to reach Maybe.

What if you what if you include Cypress Pebble, Like, where does it? Does that get it up to Philly level.

Pebble?

I think it might pass Philly.

Then NPCC times two, Spyglass if you're gonna.

If you're into that thing kind of stuff, if that's your thing.

I can't believe how many people I talk to are in love with that place. I just I don't get it.

There's some cool holes out there, yeah, like you know, two three four five or sick, But then it's just like repeatedly getting hit in the face like the rest of the day, just like uphill Part four, Uphill.

Part four, Uphill part four, it's crazy.

Three two four.

Nine, Like you're in the ten area. You know, you're in that ten course range as well for SF.

So SF can compete if you include Monterey with with Philly, I think Boston would be an interesting one.

It's like Boston, you're gonna.

Go like Essex Country Club, Myopia, Old Sandwich Club.

Old Sandwich, Boston Golf Club.

What else Eastward? Ho is it? Hans does like Sanctity Count.

I mean, let's leave those out right now and see if we need help. Like I mean, Newport's like an hour further down, but like Wanta Moist, it's like thirty five forty minutes, you know what I mean, miss cut Yeah, oh gosh, that is so sick.

I mean if in each of them kind of have their own unique aspect, like I think like one of the things is you could like I think Boston has more quirky fun courses than New York does.

Yeah, I would say, like New York is very stout championship like golf. Boston, I think you're gonna see more, like you said, kind of little quirky designs that are really fun and have like a lot of uh like very sporty golf courses. And then Philly, I think you're kind of gonna get that mix.

Of both of them.

I agree with that.

And then SF I think is more along the lines of h New York, like more like championship tests, you know what I mean.

I don't know.

I mean it's kind of a mixture too. I think it's more like the the the Philly model.

Yeah, like a little quirk got some championship, you know.

So I talked to Oberholser about this is in like with this whole kind of the games change. Everybody's you know, golf better, like golfers are better now, you know, with technology, with training, with you know, track man. So like when do we stop holding on to par and start like why don't what would what would happen at a tour event at cal Club Furman Fast, Like you know, people would the score, let it, let go of the score? Would it be really fun to watch?

Yeah?

And I think that's like I think that's what people are kind of tricked with right now. They're like a lot of people talk about that the Mexico event.

How they you know, love that that.

Golf course, And I think they're they don't really know what they're talking about as much like they love what that golf course offers, and it offers like a bunch of different approaches get you get a bunch of like shorter holes, and you get all these things that you might not see at a place like.

PGA National.

You know what I mean, You're not just like getting hit in the face. You're getting these like cool webshots, and you're you're seeing a lot of like exciting stuff. You're seeing guys get close to driving greens or you're seeing guys driving greens and chipping in and everything like that. So I totally get what you're saying, Like short, it's not terrible to go to these short courses. Sometimes they're more fun and they offer kind of a different, you know, different style of golf tournament.

It seems like the best way to combat distance and the bombing gouge would actually be to make the golf courses shorter.

Yeah, we've had discussions about that.

Like I feel like when they you know, obviously the ball goes far and you know, guys are hitting it further and everything like that, and there you know a lot of people talk about guys being more athletic and everything. But I think kind of where they screwed up in terms of golf course setup or whatever is when they started like tigerproofing these golf courses and you know, putting all these bunkers at like to ninety and putting all these new te boxes and making courses longer and longer.

That's kind of what I was thinking, is because like, okay, if you're in the rough with a half wedge, like the reward of getting like a half wedge in the fairway, like it's been proven if you get closer in the fairway, you've got a better chance of making birdie. But if you get in that same spot, like a half wedge from the rough is actually kind of harder to hit than a half wedge from a full wedge from the rough because you can't get the trajectory on its easy.

Yeah, it's and it's just shots that you don't have as much, you know what I mean, And shots shots you don't practice as much, and everything like that. Like sometimes I think of it like playing a scramble or playing like up a couple of sets of teas when you're when you're at your home course or whatever, you get tricked into hitting like a lot of drivers, and you start getting these like fifty yard web shots out of the rough that you never have and you never practice.

Like one hundred and twenty yards.

So it would just be like a whole different ballgame. I think it would be pretty cool to see. It would be fun to see a couple of tournaments a year, do it, you.

Know what I mean.

Yeah, we were texting about this the other day. We were coming up with some courses. Like everybody always says like, oh, let's go to you know, the Cypress, or you could have it at you know, National, But like, realistically, some golf courses in cities that you could maybe host a tournament at that would be offer what Mexico had, but with better architecture and less trees.

And I was at Holston Hills is the one that you always kind of talk about.

Yeah, that would be super cool. It's in Knoxville, though, so I don't think you'd see a tour event in Knoxville is the problem, you know, getting But in Chicago you could, for example, you could look at having an event at like Skokie or at Beverly, which would be, like mark remarkably different than you know, the the you know Conway Farms or Medina that are built for this championship golf. You know, modern, modernly built for championship golf.

Yeah, it's kind of a it's a it's a weird subject, right, you're talking about because it's like you'll you'll always have people be like, oh they would never host a tournament, but you never.

Know, you know, some sometimes they would. I think I think it's like.

The key is also doing a RODA. You know, asking somebody to do it for ten straight years is a lot different than asking somebody to do it once every ten years.

Yeah, exactly, like people, especially in those areas, you know, of the United States, where you're not playing golf twelve months a year. It's kind of hard to ask them to give it up at you know, prime peak season for however long, you know, usually at least a week for the golf tournament, probably a week before they would shut it down, and then not to mention all the recovery times after. You know, these guys are losing their golf courses. So it's kind of a weird situation.

Yeah, so logo madness, what that was kind of crazy. I was surprised at how popular it was.

Yeah, man, I.

Knew it was gonna I knew people were gonna get involved, and I I had a hunch that it would be it would get a lot of traction, but it kind of definitely, it definitely was way more than I thought. And it was cool to see everybody get so fired

Four, I know now, like we need to have like play in tournaments if yeah, like I feel like we still missed that. The tough thing is I think people have a hard time removing the course from the logo.

Yeah.

Absolutely, and at the same but at the same time, it's like sometimes that experience or whatever you want to call it, kind of ties into.

The logo a little bit.

You know, once you once you learn about certain things like the delf tiles at National that's kind of a logo that some people would be like what is that or like why that's not cool at all? And then you learn about it and you see it and you're like, wow, that is cool.

After you play it, you're like even you like it even more.

So it's a it's a weird thing, and it kind of goes along those discussions of when people are like would that whole be good if it wasn't on the ocean and stuff like that, but it's like it is on the ocean, and that.

That logo is for that golf course.

So it's a it's a I think a debate that no one will ever win.

I h Yeah, it's And the cool thing about logos is everybody can have their opinion exactly. We as the committee, we we probably didn't do the best job of seating these and setting up matchups here. But who do you do feel like kind of got the toughest shake.

Here, Stonewall, like having to go up against Marion's second round, which just I think they Stonewall could have made a pretty deep run in the tournament if they would have been in basically any other like, I don't know what were they They were like a thirty.

Well they were they would have been an eight nine seed if if we go with the NTA tournament set up.

Yeah, I thought, I think I think them.

I thought White Bear Yacht Club also had the same thing because they had to go up against fishers in the second round.

Yeah, agreed.

And then I mean Saint Louis Golf, Saint Louis Country Club kind of got wow.

Yeah, it's you know, I were a lot La La got a kind of a tough one.

They had to face Sleepy in the second round.

They got there, they got blown out too. They just got obliterated. I know.

I remember tweeting something like, what a great matchup we have, this is going to come down to the wire. And then it was like seventy five twenty five. I was like, well, even Vegas is wrong.

Every once in a while, I'm pretty disappointed that Chicago Golf Club lost a deer.

How about s F Club getting bounced in the first round.

I'll tell you it wasn't good for intertwined letters. Yeah, no, it's not good at all.

We missed so many good logos looking back on it that it was just like, did you see they're doing a Canada one right now?

There's so many of them we I don't know. People have been clamoring for a worldwide one with you know, all the world versus the you know logos, but man, it's it's tough. I think public one would be cool too. I don't know if pasta Tiempo would would hang in on the public side, if that counts to semi private count as public, I think maybe a lot.

I think so, I think you got to do like just public.

Just public. Man, there could be some bad, bad uh low seeds in that one.

Absolutely, the one someone brought up. I think a cool one would be uh tea markers mark.

Yeah, what about clubhouses.

Clubhouses would be a good one too.

There's so many good things you could do, and people love this stuff and they love getting involved and talking about it, and these ones are kind of easier to discuss than, you know, instead of talking about like golf holes.

Yeah exactly. I think maybe we should do uh, we should do one in maybe a couple of weeks. We'll see, well, stay tuned, it'll be uh but uh, hey, what's the most underrated seth Rainer course that you've played?

Oh? I don't know. I'm scared to say, because then right maybe say like I don't even know I would what would you say?

I haven't played as many as you, So I haven't.

Played like a ton, you know what I mean.

There's not like there's not like there aren't that many.

Yeah, there's not like that many.

And it feels like a lot of them are are properly rated, you know what I mean, Like a lot of them are just solid golf courses. There's but like maybe maybe a place like Yale, even though it like that is a I think that place is under rated.

Let me see, let me look up.

Some I feel like that's another one where if it was an exclusive country club like Pasa Tiempo. It would be like thought of completely different. But because it's the way it's maintained, like it has to be, that it gets a bad rap. I guess if we include McDonald into it, Saint Louis Country Club was pretty rad.

Yeah.

But there's the thing that I always talk about. I feel like every McDonald course or every Rainer course, it seems like I don't know which way.

I explain this. I always get confused.

But it's like every Rainer or every McDonald was a Rainer. You know, he had some help in it, but not every Rainer was a McDonald, you know what I mean? Yeah, at least that's that's that's how I think of it. But like I'm running through some of these right now, like Sleepy Hollow. Sleepy hollows like pretty underrated.

That place is sick. How about the Midland Hills finding that that.

Drawing insane?

It's so that's really cool, dude.

Literally, do you think remember our podcast with Tully and how he kept talking about all he wanted to do was find the Metal Club original drawing, And like, I wonder if Tully was kind of like sad or re energized him and he started looking in some obscure places.

Yeah, he said that on Twitter the other day. He was like, he was just basically talking about how it just kind of like he's been looking NonStop for X amount of years and hasn't found anything yet, looked through every single piece of the clubhouse up there at Metal Club and he still hasn't got anything.

So he's like, but I'm still gonna keep looking.

What what do you think, Mackenzie Rainer? Now, is it changed at all now that you've played all these McKenzie courses in Australia and California.

You know what what I'll say is.

Mackenzie definitely had like a different flare about him that like his golf courses are one hundred percent like they're more beautiful, you know what I mean, And they probably like tie in together, get all the little little intricacies and details better than like a Rainer.

But even like when I went to Mountain Lake the other day and put it on like green compile enjoyable to a put on for me and.

To hit shots into because you have you have these just simple looking greens that you can make as hard as you want with what kind of pin positions you put and they're still not crazy, you know what I mean?

I feel like I feel like McKenzie.

There's so many greens, Like if you look at back at like Pasa Timpo, there's so many greens out there that realistically only have like one or two hole locations, And the same thing goes with like a place like Cyprus.

Does that make sense?

Yeah?

I think like if you could, I guess it wouldn't look I don't think it would look right, But like some of the ways that Mackenzie bunkered places with with rainer green complexes would be ideal.

I think you could do that.

I think you could do that because if you look at like a like a rain a rainer course that's bunkered, you know, they're.

All like deep grass faced bunkers.

So you could do the very beautiful you know bunkers with the tongues and everything like that, and I think it would look good.

I think you could do it, for sure. I think that's what we do at the Buck Club is just get.

That perfect combination of the Mackenzie style bunkering with the rainer complexes.

Yeah, it's uh. I think uh. I would say, I think that's possible. I mean, that's the way I would think about putting those guys together. You know, That's what I think each of them did. I keep thinking about super like architects, like if you put everybody together, how it would be? But that be impossible.

That's what they did it. That's what they did. Man, That's what they did at PV. And that's why that place is the best golf course in the world.

You know, who could have had Mackenzie.

Did, Yeah, Monterey Peninsula. Who else?

That's it?

I think, But I think that's I need it. I need to say that better right now. Is what I think. What Mackenzie did so well was his bunkering and and the way he.

Tied everything together and all the little details and intricacies of his golf course, and the way he let you

Have you played a lot of Bill Flynn courses, William a little bit?

Yeah, Yeah, wild Bill. Wild Bill was solid. He's kind of like the perfect marriage of the two. He gets, you know, a little more movement on the green. Wild Bill does a good job of having a little more short grass around the putting surfaces, you know, around the green complexes. That's one thing I will say that Rainer lacked. He it was a lot of bunkering and a lot of rough I don't.

Know though, is that just I think that's a lot of just shrinkage, bad mowing, over the years.

Just don't they just don't mow it properly, because like even like a place like Mountain Lake the other day when I played, it's like all sides are guarded by bunkers.

You know, except for the front.

Rgo golf like that too.

Short acres is too there's a little more short grass around that place. But still if you look, if you like look at aerials and everything like that, Rainer definitely liked to use bunkering around the greens more like if you think about Fisher's Island, like, yeah, every single hole it's bunkers left, right and back, you know what I mean. So, but that's why I was saying, I feel like William Flynn did a good job of kind of marrying the two.

You know.

He he got a little more movement on the greens, but still a lot of it was pinnable. And then he did a good job of kind of letting you have short grass.

You know, what we should try and do. We should try and do around the longest day of the year in June, depending on you might be playing in the US Open, so this would be move but we play either we play Southampton West Hampton National Golf links. It would be the rainer day.

Yeah, I did that basically it was sick.

Just rainer overload.

I uh do that Long Island trip I went on. It was the same thing me and.

You did in SF, but it was on Long Island and it was like, it was one of the coolest experiences ever just to see all those places. Southampton and West Hampton are Dude, they fly super under the radar.

It's cool.

Like West Hampton's so quirky and kind of on a small ballpark, but you never you never feel like you're cramped in there. And then Southampton is really cool. But it just I mean, shit, it's right next to National and Shinnecock, so it's like, of course, no one's ever going to really talk about it.

That's I mean, National, Shinnacock, Sabonic Southampton being within essentially you could just walk to each of them from the other one. Yeah, and then you've got wingfoot both courses in quaker Ridge where you could like they're right, I mean, you could walk to them. That's like the craziest thing about New York.

Yeah, they are. I mean it's so good.

But I think that would be a cool one that you just said both of those would be sick on the longest day of the year. Try and play either you know, both courses at Wingfoot and Quaker, and then try and play National Shinny, Southampton and Sabonic on one day. That would be get seventy two in. Can you get seventy two in in a day? People do it at bandon On like the summer Sults, Summer Solstice.

Yeah. I mean people, there's like that hundred hole hike that that Jim Colton founded that you do one hundred holes in a day for two I.

Think you could. You could do it, definitely, you could definitely do it six.

Think about it. So like if you tee off at six am, you're done with with eighteen by nine thirty or now by nine you tee off the next one, you're done by noon, take a thirty minute break for lunch. Then you're oh, you could do seventy two no problem.

Yeah, I think that's the that's the next one we do right there, National Shiny, Sabonic and Southampton.

They're all touching each other.

You could literally if you got permission somehow, the coolest thing I think you could ever do, now that I'm thinking about it, would be to start at Sabonic and figure out a routing where you know, you don't necessarily have to start from one, but like you could start from the one tip of the property and play until you until you get you know, handed off at National and play and then you hand it off kind of on like ten, yeah, and go over to Shinny and

Play that out and finish it off at Sabonic. Like that would be I think that's our new goal in life, right there, is to somehow pull.

That we create a seventy two whole routing using those four courses.

I'm going to get on that tonight.

Yeah, when you figure it out, we'll put the pot up just number We'll just number the one through seventy two.

I think the way you got to do it is, uh, you you start. I think you got to finish a National somehow.

You gotta you gotta make a way to finish National eighteen because that's like there's not many more amazing pull.

The sun would be going down over the over the fucking day, dude, it would be legendary. We gotta we gotta get on that. Man.

I'm gonna I'm gonna get this. Uh, I'm gonna get this dialed in. And that's going to be our goal for the year is to somehow.

Pull that off.

Hey, overrated, underrated? I only think I think I only have like one of them. Okay, Shadow Creek.

I would say, I would say underrated.

I feel like people talk about it, but it really is kind of like a masterpiece.

To see that place.

How they virtually took a flat piece of property and you go on this wild ride kind of up and down and it's it's pretty cool.

Push carts.

Underrated.

I just don't understand, like how they're not more popular over here. It's all people use in both like Scotland and Ireland and Australia. It's kind of like you never see people with caddies in those places, and you never see people with golf carts or carrying.

It's always push carts. So underrated.

All right, All right, later man, we'll talk soon.

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