I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a bright egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Friday bride egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. All right. Back, by popular demand, we have a couple of our most popular guests, PGA tour player Zach Blair and lawyer by day, phenomenal golf photographer by hobby John Cavalier, you may know him as links Gems. Gentlemen, Welcome back.
Hey guys doing thanks, thanks so much. And I feel like I should be getting strokes just just by talking to you guys here.
I need some some strokes. If we ever played from Zach for sure, you know, especially coming out of winter.
Well, we got to get out somewhere this year.
Yeah, well, you know, there's so many options. We'll get into all the options here and shortly, I'm sure. So tonight we're gonna do things a little different. You know, We're just gonna ask questions and let these two guys talk. Considering they've you know, they're playing all over the place and uh, you know they've they've played everywhere. I'm just a novice in this threesome here. So both of you, Well, Zach you're right out there in the Monterey Peninsula right now,
and John you went out there recently. So you know, let's just cut to the chase and talk about Cyprus. You know, Zach, you played there on Monday. Why don't you give us a lowdown about how it was.
Yeah, I mean, you know it is. You hear it all the time about how great it is, and you know how spectacular that place is, and you know, it kind of lives up to its reputation every time you get out there. It's, you know, pretty breathtaking. It's a really fun golf course. That's the best way I can describe it. It's extremely fun, and it's sporty and you got, you know, got a bunch of wedges in there, and you can get to a couple of the par five and a bunch of really good part of threes, and
you know, it's just really enjoyable. It gets more fun each time you go out there. I've been lucky enough to play it a few times, so it's a it's always a treat.
John, you were out there last month, it looked like, you know from from the photos, you had an awesome day out there. Yeah.
I'm not sure if I played the same course or not that Zach played, because I don't remember reaching any of the par fives in two or having a bunch of wedges in. But I did play a course called Cypress Point while I was out there, and I will echo what Zach said. It's an amazing golf course. It's an amazing place, and it's one of those courses that
it's just packed full of amazing moments. You know, like golf, we chase these courses and there are certain courses in certain places where you have these these moments like seeing the alps hole at National Golf Links for the first time, or seeing the clubhouse and then the ninth and eighteenth greens at Shinnecock or the ninth at Yale, where you just you get this indelible memory. And it's Cyprus. The thing that struck me the most was that it's just
end to end, wall to wall amazing moments. It's just an incredible place to have a golf course. It lived up to every bit of hype and expectation that I had. And then from just an amazing place.
So you know, everybody's seeing the pictures. I've looked at them for countless hours. I'm curious, since both of you've been out of there multiple times, what's the best part of the Cypress experience that nobody knows about.
I mean, I just you know, you always hear about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen and how amazing those holes are. And you know, those holes are amazing, they're unbelievable, but every other hole on that golf course is pretty unbelievable as well. So it kind of you know, those holes one through fourteen and they get overshadowed a little bit by by those
ocean holes. But I mean, every hole on that course is so fun and entertaining, and you know, you got so many different shots and they you have to play and different looks, kind of going through the dunes and into the trees and then out of the trees into the dunes, and then you finally do get to those ocean holls. It's just like it's amazing, but no one ever talks about any of those other holes, and they're pretty awesome.
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. I was absolutely blown away with how good the quote other holes on the golf course are I Just like Zach said, you hear about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. Occasionally you hear some negative comments about eighteen, but you don't hear much about anything else. And somebody told me, who I talked to before I went out there, that when they had played it, the rest of the course is so good that they
actually sort of forgot about the other holes. And when I was there, I found myself in the exact same boat. It's just so overwhelmingly stunning, and the quality of golf is just so good from the very first shot of the day that it's really hard to look ahead to anything beyond what's right in front of you. I mean, bottom line, you get holes like eight nine to two short par fours, the thirteenth hole with the green backstop
by the bunkers, right next to the ocean. These are holes that are top fifty in the world, and no one ever talks about them. And it's understandable, because fifteen through seventeen really are other worldly. I mean, they are as good as it can possibly get in the world of golf. But I was just stunned by how good the rest of the course was it's incredible.
It's interesting.
Yeah, I mean, oh no, go ahead.
So I'm curious with you guys both being McDonald and Rainer fans, And obviously the Rainer head routed the course and then he passed away and mackenzie kind of took over the project. How do you guys think the course would be? Head Ray been there and used template hole golf into the course.
Yeah, I mean I've actually been. You know, I've talked about that before and it's hard to say that it would have been better than it is, but I you know, I argue that I don't think it would have been any worse because I mean, that piece of property, with how spectacular it is, you see what you know Rainer was able to do over at Fisher's Island. I mean,
I think it would have been really good. But obviously, you know McKenzie with how magical he was with doing his bunkers and everything like that, it fit awesome out there. But I mean, I think it would have been really special if Rainer was able to do it. But you know, there's no knocking the way it is now.
Yeah, you'll never get me to admit that that Rainer would not have been able to do as good of a job as any other architect who had given a piece of property. As you guys both know, I.
Think I'm just a Rainer fan to the extreme, so to speak.
It's very interesting to think about the piece of property that Cyprus sits on and where certain templates would go. When I was standing on the eighth t at Cyprus, I found myself thinking that this would be a neat spot to build, sort of an outs punch bowl type of a whole if you extended it.
There are a lot of neat possibilities in that regard.
I've also played a lot more mc Rainer courses than mackenzie courses, and from sort of just now getting into the bigger parts of Mackenzie's body of work, but I will say that Mackenzie's style suits that location about as
good as any style could suit the location. I mean the way he does his bunkering, the way he routed the golf or I guess Rayner routed most of the golf course, but the way he took advantage of that routing, the way he sort of ignored the usual way of spacing the the part three's and the part five's out I thought he did an incredible job. I do think though, that Rayner would have done a as incredible of a job as as mckimsee did. I'll never admit that Rayner
would be outdone by somebody else. I'm just too big a fan.
Interesting. So, you guys have both played a ton in the northern California area, and I'm curious to hear you know there's a dearth of great golf out there. How you'd rank the courses, say, if you had to go one through five on the Peninsula and including San Francisco.
Well, I've never played San Francisco Golf Club, unfortunately, but you know I've I've heard it's great. But of the you know, of the courses, and so are we talking like Cyprus, Pebble, Monterey Peninsula, Spyglass and San Francisco Golf Club.
Yeah, you could go San Francisco Golf Club, Cal Club, Olympic Club, Pasa Tiempo. All those are in play. Man.
I haven't played enough in San Francisco to really dive into that, you know, and I haven't even been out to Pasa Tampo. But I mean, as far you know, I've played, I've played a lot out as far as the ones on the Peninsula go. I mean, I give Cyprus, you know, the head over heels favorite for me, and then two would probably be Pebble Beach. I wish it had a little bit more of a rugged look to it like Cypress has. I think it's a little too
cleaned up and everything like that. But then the next for me would be the Shor's Course at Monterey Peninsula. I think that's one of the most unbelievable golf courses that no one ever talks about. You never hear anybody mention that place, and it's like one of the most visually most amazing places that I've ever played. You get so many of those holes right on the water that would be right up there with Pebble for me, and then Spyglasses.
So we're in large agreements, Zacha. For me, Cyprus is by far and away the clear number one, and Pebble is by far and away the clear number two, despite a few flaws that I think you and I would both agree could be cleaned up, although acknowledging that Pebble as a public resort course has some limitations that it has to sort of adhere to given its business model.
Three for me would be San Francisco Golf Club, which is an incredible pilling half the golf course, which you really have to see to believe, Zach, You've got to get out there. You will absolutely adore it. For this is where it gets a little tough for me. For if I can sort of group them together, he'd be talking Monterey Peninsula. For me, I believe I would have a hard time deciding between Dunes and Sure. I love Strands.
The short course is unbelievable. The Dunes course really pleasantly surprised me, and we can talk about that in detail if you want to, Andy, But for the five spot, for me, it would be a really difficult call to make between Cal Club and Postimpo. I really like both of them. If you put a gun to my head, I'd go with Cal Club, but it's really close. I really liked both of those golf closes that happily play at any time. There's just a lot of good golf
between San Francisco and Monterey. And Metal Club is another one that I'd consider to be just as just as worthy as those two. So I guess I gave you seven instead.
Of five, But that would be my Listy Metal Club Sawston.
So yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about MPCC, which Alan ship Nutt called this week the best thirty six holes of golf in America, best thirty six hole golf club in America. So love to hear what you guys think and of that statement and kind of how it would stack up with wing Foot, Baltus Rawl, you know another ones that you've played.
Yeah, I'll go ahead, go ahead. I'm sorry, Zach. I don't mean to step on your toes there. I will say this, I liked it better than Wingfoot and Baltus Raw. The scenery probably has a lot to do with that, and again, given that I am the the rank hack of the group we have tonight, it also probably has a little bit to do with difficulty. I mean, I found dunes in Shore to be much more playable to some extent in Wingfoot, but to a far extent Baltus Raw,
which just crushes me. And I do know that it is sort of the goal of the club to be recognized in that group being of the best thirty six hole courses in the world, and I certainly think they're on the right path. I mean, the Dunes Course, and after Zach gives us the impression, I'll tell you what I thought of the Dunes.
But.
The two courses just they're incredibly beautiful. They mesh so well together. It doesn't feel crowded or cramped at all. The property is spectacular and just the ambiance of playing so many holes with the Pacific Ocean in view is an experience that you're just not going to be able to duplicate that other clubs around the country. It's just it's really a one of a kind experience for a thirty six hole club.
Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I haven't been able to play the Dunes course yet, but I've played with the Jackson con guys that you know, we're a major part in doing that out there. I was able to to play with them at Scottsdale National last week and talked to them a lot about it, you know, went and walked around, uh yesterday and today saw the place, and I mean visually, it's unbelievable, and
I mean just just from the views. I mean, I don't know how you could beat that with any other thirty six hole course that that that I know about. In America. But uh, I mean, like I'm a huge fan of the Shores course. So if it's anything like the Shores course as far as playability and fun, I mean, that kind of takes the cake for me, because you know, Wingfoot is great and Balta Straw they're great, but they're you know, they're championship major type tracks and venues. You know,
they're ballbusters. They're gonna you're gonna go out there and they're gonna be tough from from the first hole to the last. And uh, you know each course, bal To Straw and wings you know, they got their course that doesn't host the majors, which I've heard both of them are really good. But I mean i'd probably give it to I probably give the nod to Monterey just because of how fun they are and how playable they are for probably the everyday person.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's the shift in really architecture and people are starting to realize that that'sa championship golf and difficulty aren't the you know, really true definition of a great golf course. I think they have a part in you know, determining certain courses greatness, but definitely not the shouldn't be the defining factor. So you know, Zach, You're kind of parlayed perfectly into talking about you know, Scott Steel National and Jackson and Conn.
I'm curious what you thought about the bad little nine the little part three course that Bob Parsons built out there to be, you know, the hardest part three course in America.
I mean, I don't know if I can say enough good things about, you know, my experience out Snow National just I mean, from the moment we got there till the moment we left, I mean, I don't I seriously don't know if I've ever been to a club in my entire life that was as enjoyable and fun and inviting. And I mean they just did everything that I could ever want at a club. From the moment that I got out of my car till the moment I left, it was unbelievable. And then you know, the golf was
just kind of it was awesome. I mean, that place is so cool that that little nine hole part three course is unbelievable. I mean, it's definitely accomplished its goal of being the hardest part three course in the world.
I bet.
You can make that place as hard as you would ever want it to be. I guess on Fridays they kind of set it up, you know, as hard as they can and give you a chance. If you break par or shoot even they give you like a thousand dollars bar tab or something like that. So it's a pretty cool little, uh little game they get on Fridays. And I don't think anybody's even touched that, you know,
going out there for the first time that day. But I mean it's so cool and at the same time, they can set it up as easy as they want it too. There's a lot that the greens are massive for the most part, and there's a lot of undulation and slope and they can put pins in really easy spots and they get really fun for anybody of any skill level, I guess. But I mean it's so cool. Visually,
it's awesome. They did a really good job out there, and I was able to see, you know, some of the other work they did out on the other course, which is you know, looks like it's pretty tough and pretty good as well. So I really enjoyed it, you know.
I got a lot of craft. I wrote my newsletter that Phoenix and Scottsdale was an over like a below average golf town, and I just I got by people, and I'd love to hear your guys's two takes on on the subject matter.
Yeah, take it away, John.
Well, look, I haven't played a lot of golf in the Phoenix and Scottsdale area, and so my response to you would be, I think it's reasonable to assume that there is a reason that I haven't played a whole lot of golf in the Phoenix and Scottsdale area. I am not normally a big fan of desert golf usually as far as playability goes, it just isn't a style of golf that appeals to me. By definition, desert golf isn't really can't really be minimalists, which I tend to
gravitate towards that that kind of a style. Everything is manufactured, and it's very difficult, I've found for architects, and especially since a lot of those courses were built during the same time period when a lot of architects weren't.
Even paying attention to that kind of thing.
What you end up with is a lot of courses that don't really fit into my typical preferred style. Of play, so to speak. But I've been that once. I played half a dozen seven eight courses out that way. I liked a couple of them, didn't like a couple others. Again, I don't like to criticize an area or a specific golf course too harshly, but it's just not an area
that is my cup of teaths, so to speak. You know, there are in the list of places in the United States that I would rather take a golf trip to. There are probably thirty or forty locales that would be on that list ahead of the Scott's the area. They got great weather in the winter, though, so they shouldn't be too upset.
Yeah, I mean, I think the easiest way to put that is, like John just said, I think there's so many areas that are head over heels better, that have such a bigger group of great golf courses that it's hard to head to Phoenix just for the weather or just for you know, the handful of good golf courses when you could, you know, pick thirty other places in America that have way more courses that are really really good and the weather's probably just as good.
Yeah. Well, that's my whole point was quantity does an equal quality. So so you know, speaking of we were just talking about nine whole courses, I'd love to hear some of your guys' favorite nine whole courses that you've played.
Yeah, I mean that that bad little nine was as cool as you get from a little part three perspective. But one of my favorite courses I think in the entire world is Cohukuo Golf Club or golf course whatever
out on the north Shore in Hawaii. It's it's not always in the best shape, but i mean, man, it's on the coolest piece of property, and it's got some really cool holes with some great little green complexes, And you know, I think if that if that place ever got any money put into it, I think it would be the best nine hole course in the world.
Probably I gotta get out to Hawaii. In my book, it would be Dunes Club number one by a pretty wide margin. Mike Kaiser's Playground in southwestern Michigan is uh just a terrific place. Again. It's it's got the architecture, it's got the vibe. It's got so many holes that can be played but from different angles, from different keys that really changes the composition. Of the golf course, which
I think is terrific. A close second would be Whitonsville south of Boston, which is an old Donald Ross nine hole course that is both beautiful and just terrific to play, absolute blast.
Anybody who lives in the Northeast needs to see that place.
And then beyond that it gets a little bit tough. There are a couple that I know I will love that I need to see, like Culver and Sweden's Cove, but I think Dunes Club in Whitonsville would be the clear top of the list for me for nine hole courses.
YEA.
Another another cool little nine hole course in Saint George's, Utah is the San Hollow Links nine at Yeah San Holla. That's I think that's probably the best course in Utah. So that's another cool one to check out if you ever in the area.
That place looks about as visually stunning as any course I've ever seen. At Sanjallo.
Yeah, it's pretty unbelievable.
Yeah, I played a I played a cool little nine hole down in Orlando, Uh Winter Park. It's like a It was twenty four hundred yards. And then they brought in Keith Rebb and Riley John's and then also Blake Conant, the two of the guys you know that have done a ton of work for Coren Crenshaw and they turned this little place like it's you know, nine holes twenty four hundred yards and it's like really it's kind of
like strategic tough. The greens are amazing, the complexes, the bunkering is phenomenal, Like if you short sided yourself out there, you are just toast. I think I made four birdies and four bogies and nine I think nine hole golf has got to get more popular. I think it's awesome. You know, it's it's you know, eighteen is a long time stuff for you know, some people. I think nine you know, these nine whole courses I think are so cool.
So speaking I agree, speaking of I love non traditional courses.
Yeah, that plays right into the next question I had, what what kind of unique golf designs would you like to see more of in the future, Whether it's like that cheap ranch model where it's t the ball anywhere, play to any hole. More so, like you know, they have like nine greens and you can play it any way you want, like five whole courses or short courses putting courses. What do you guys kind of would you like to see more of in the future.
I think like nine whole courses and part three, like little nine hole Part three courses. The other ones are really cool concepts, I think to me, you know, like the whole courses or the you know, the sheep Branch type deal where you can play to any green you want. They're really cool on paper, but if you ever get any demand then people actually want to go play that
type of place. It gets really hard, you know, when there's multiple groups out there and they're like, you know, a couple of people are trying to go to the same green and people are hitting over people's heads. Like they sound really cool, but I just don't think they work. So, I mean what we were just saying, I think nine whole courses are very undervalued and very you know, no one seems to want to build them for whatever reason,
but you know, I think they're really fun. Like that Cuhuckoo course is as cool as it gets, and you know it takes you know, an hour and a half or two hours and you're out of there at max.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Zach is right about the Sheep ranch course, and we talked about this recently, but there's another model where we were speaking about where you could play as a nine whole part three course, a three whole full length course and what have you, but it's just not workable if there's more than a group or
two out there, because otherwise it's just a crossfire. So it's I do agree though it for me, Friar's Head does this perfectly if you're talking about little extras for the members that make the course a really fun place or the club a really fun place to be. Friar's Head has its big eighteen hull core crunch all course, which is fantastic, but beyond that, they also have a nine to hole par three course that you can go play around on if you just want to get a
a quick loop in. They have an incredible practice facility with two short game greens and a full driving range, and then they have a Himalayas style full putting course that you can play on for as long as you want to. And I just think that those are incredible amenities for either a membership with for a resort to have as an alternative to going out on the big course and maybe losing four hours that you might not otherwise have. If it were up to me, every club
that could afford one would have a putty course. I just think they're incredibly fun. I think it's a relatively inexpensive way to add a very desirable feature and alternative future to a course, and I think you'll see a lot of that in the near future at at high end clubs we have the room to put one down.
Yeah, I think it's I heard Bally Neil in Colorado is putting in like a Himalaya style course. They've got a lot of stuff. That's a cool place I want to check out this year. So since we've got you know, three of the biggest McDonald's and Rainer fans on the planet on this podcast, I think we have to talk a little bit about, you know, template golf and curious what you got your guys's favorite template holes are and you know why they're your favorite.
I really like the punch bowl Alps combo like at Fisher's Island. I think it's really cool just kind of hitt into that flag pole and then kind of getting up to the top of the hill and seeing where you're you know, you're ball ended up. I think it's, you know, a hole that they don't build as much as I think they should anymore. It's just a fun way to spice things up. But I would say that or a beer at screen probably.
Yeah. I mean the third at National in the fourth of Fisher's Islands are probably two of my ten.
Favorite holes that I've ever played, so I certainly agree.
I don't know why you don't see as many of them as you used to, but it's certainly one that I love. I also love the leaven template that you don't see too often, but whenever I play a Raider course that still has it's leaving hole intact, it always ends up being one of my favorites on the golf course.
And of course the rare Dan is always a.
Wonderful hole play.
Yeah, it's interesting. I was I met a member of a club. I'll keep it nameless, you know, I don't want to bother anybody. But they brought in an architect who looked at their Alps punch bowl template and they you know, they were having drainage problems, which is one of the reasons that modern architecture went away from the punch bowl. Even though they had technology that could help
those drainage problems. And you know this, this unnamed architect who has a track record for you know, dismantling rainer courses. He said, you know, you need to just raise this punch bowl green up, and he turned the green into a plateau green. So, I mean, that's just what happened in the you know, seventies, eighties, and nineties, I think, And hopefully it seems like we're getting back to punch bowls.
I know Gil hands as a new one at stream Song Black that I saw that looks pretty cool, I'd say in terms of my favorite template hall, you know, I'm a sucker for the short. I think that I've made so many bogies on short holes because like the green is just so tough. If you don't hit it in the exact right spot, you know you're gonna walk away with the bogie.
I mean, I think, I mean, the way we talk about these holes, it's pretty unbelievable to hear that. You know, how much we love the punch bowl and how much we love the ri Dan, and how much we love the short and the leaven and the road hall and stuff like that, and to see it not them not built more It's just it like mind boggling every day when I think about it, I'm just like, where did people fall off the wagon and think that it was
you know, okay to stop building these courses. I mean they were used at every one of you know, Rayner and McDonald courses, and people loved all their courses, all of those all their courses are so unbelievably fun to play that it was like they understood if the you know, if it wasn't broke, why try and fix it. They kept using it and kept using it, and they kept working. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Then then someone came along and was like, you know, we shouldn't do those anymore. We should build, you know, a course that is so hard and people, you know, are going to lose all these golf balls and they can't remember any of the holes. Like I mean, we remember all these template holes so well because they're so enjoyable and fun. It's just like all of them are so good. At the end of the day, they're all awesome.
Yeah, it couldn't agree with you more. These are holes with the with the defined and demonstrated and very long track record of success, and like you said, people adore these holes. It makes no sense to me. And when you see some of these rainer courses up and around New York and some of the courses that Charlie Banks built using these templates, a lot of these courses are
on really dull pieces of land. But the fact that they put these templates in and adapted them to that land, they were able to turn an otherwise very mediocre piece of ground into a course. Like ZECH said that you remember every hole on the golf course. If it was just a normal, typical modern day design, you'd walk off the course and you wouldn't be able to remember a thing. It just mind boggling is the perfect phrase for it.
Yeah, Like when I go to a course built by I mean, it's really sad to say, and I harp on it every time I get on a podcast or
talk about it. But any course that's been built in the last like forty years, I could you know, I remember Hall is really good, But I mean I can't differentiate half the part three's that any of these these architects build because they wanted to every part three at two you know, two o five to two twenty five and have a small green that that's hard to hit and you got to carry a bunker, and so you can't even get a shot close to a front pin,
especially if it's downwind. And then half the time they're downhill, and it's just like I can't even remember any of the par threes. And then you go to a you know, a McDonald or a Rainer course and you got these template holes and you literally remember them to a key, exactly the way they played, exactly how the green was and you know why you like it so much was so defined because they kept doing the same stuff over and over. So it's just it's so weird to me.
Yeah, I think everybody got in their own way, you know, and wanting to create their own genius, when really the greatest architects just took the principles from you know, the British Isles and what old Tom Morris was doing and James Braid and uh, you know really just you know, kind of learned from them, as opposed to you know, I think in the fifties sixties they got their technology all of a sudden, they could use CAD and create you know, I always laugh when I look at bunkers,
it's like you can tell when they had the computer software because all of a sudden, these bunkers are perfect little circles and they look completely awful. It's so, you know, I think John touchdown Levin being an underappreciated template holes. Zach, do you have an underappreciated template hole? Man?
I really like kind of the you know, you've talked about it a lot, that kind of like the volcano type green that kind of falls off on all the sides. I don't think that's used as much as it should be on some of those shorter kind of risk reward drivable type part four US. I think that's that's something that is missing out on a lot of places.
I think, yeah, volcano greens are really cool. Like have you played out of Bedford Springs, John, Yes, they've got a good one.
Right, they do.
They do.
Bedford Springs is a really underrated ross course, a lot of fun to play. Neat elevation change of course, kind of sits in a valley between two mountains, so that the whole play up the sides, which is how you end up with a volcano hole that sits the surroundings very well. But it's a neat place. And yes, that is a really nice example of the Volcano Temple.
Yeah, another great one is a short little part four. Holston Hills has a great one. Lulu Country Club has a great one. I gotta do a post on volcano holes. It will be one of these in the future. So outside, you know, I think we've talked enough.
We have.
We'll still talk probably more Rainer McDonald Banks. So if you were going to go play a golf course in a city and somebody had to say, you know, we've got every architect that's designed a course here and you can't choose McDonald, Rayner or Banks, who are you going with? And why.
I'd go with McKimson.
Yeah, I probably would too. You know, I don't know if I've ever played a Mackenzie course that I don't really really like, so I would probably say him, or I've played a lot of tilling House courses that I really have enjoyed. You know, Somerset Hills is one of my favorite courses in the world, and that's kind of one of the places that I've said that if there was if I could choose one course to play for
the rest of my life, that that might be the one. So, you know, I think I might have to throw his name in the mix too.
Yeah, I think.
He's one of my all time favorites as well. In Somerset Hill's first course I ever did a photo tour of. It is an amazing place. It's my favorite Tilly Aance course by a pretty good margin, and certainly one of my favorite courses in the area, so I can certainly respect.
That pure Yeah, that's it, Tilly. I think William Flynn's really criminally underrated. I haven't played a bad Flynn course, but probably I'd probably go with Mackenzie or or Tilly too. So if you guys could restore or renovate one golf course in America, what would it be and why?
I think I would do Augusta and take it back to kind of how it was originally. I see some pictures of some of those green complexes back in the day, the really wild looking ones that are, and some of those the bunkers, how they were like a little more Cyprus pointy with the kind of jagged lines and they weren't all so perfect. I think that would be a
really cool place. Not that Augusta isn't amazing, but I think that would kind of be a cool little thing to get it back to the way it was when they first built that place.
Oh man, that's amazing. I think, Yeah, you look at it now and obviously it you know, gets a lot of coverage and there's all of courts sorts of synonymous love for it. But what it was originally to what it is now is a shell of itself. And you know, a certain family got their hands on it for a while, which will keep nameless. What about you, John, So, I would.
Love to do a very faithful and caring restoration at Yale. It's one of my favorite courses as it is, it's an iconic McDonald rainer course, but I would love to put the third Green back where it's.
Supposed to be.
And I would love to just touch up the course, widen the greens out to their original to their original sizes, sharpen up the edges again, get the conditioning under control so that the course played firmer and faster and bouncier and the ball started moving on the ground like it's supposed to do there. And I think if you got the right person to do that and spend a little bit of money to get it where it could be, it would be one of the ten or twenty best courses in the world.
Yeah, I remember playing Yale. I went out there last year after the PGA, right before the Hartford event, and you know, obviously i'm a big cebe McDonald's at trainer fan, so I really enjoyed it. But I thought, I mean, I thought the same thing. I just couldn't believe the uh, you know, the condition the place was in, you know, especially with I mean, that place has got to just be They've got to have some deep pockets around that area obviously that I think they could do so much
with that place. And I mean it's a shame that it's not in like mint condition, to be honest.
Yeah, And look, I don't I'm not. I'm not a conditioning freak.
You know.
I don't mind playing courses that are a little scruffy. I don't you know. I'm not one of these guys that needs wall to wall green everywhere. And I know you're not either, Zach. The problem I have with it is the conditions that Yale impact the way the golf course plays, and it keeps the course from playing like
McDonald and Rainer wanted and expected it to play. It's so soft it doesn't the ball doesn't move on the ground like it has to to take advantage of those wonderful architectural features that they have there.
It's just it's really.
In my view of tragedy just knowing what it could be if and I don't even think it would take that much work. I don't know why. I mean, grant it's a very difficult piece of property, and I'm sure if there are drainage issues that I haven't even thought up. I mean, I'm not an architect, but it's just given what they have there and the amazing architectural bones of that place, it's something that I would desperately like to see at some point.
Not to mention the alumni base, you know, It's like I imagine you could get a right a fundraiser together and a couple of million bucks pretty easily, and you could, you know, get a guy like Silva who's done you know, great jobs with Reiner restorations and get him out there, and it would it would be you know, I'd imagine that the course, given what I've seen from photos and you know how bold the design is. I mean, it would be a top fifty golf course in the in the country, no problem.
Hi Yeah.
Yeah, I mean I'm dead serious when I tell you that if you gave Silva a couple million bucks and a year to do his work, you're ending up with a top twenty golf course and as far as the money goes, Look, I mean, I don't throw a couple million dollars around easily, but I will tell you this. The you know you're talking about a fundraiser. Yale has an endowment of twenty five billion. That's a billion with
a B dollars. You think that just for the good of the game, they could carve off a little slice of that and throw it at the golf course, if you know what I mean.
I don't even think that's a slice when you're talking billions. That's like a little crumb. That's a little crumb, right.
Yeah, it would be good for it'd be good for the students, you know, be good for their well being.
Yeah. I'm playing with a Yale alumn this week at the Pebble Beach. Maybe I'll have a little talk with her about it, see if she can get things working over there.
Yeah, get on there, you know, get on there as an.
The three of us will do it for half feet.
I like that that'll be my that'll be my first big gig.
All right. So what's one architect that you haven't seen a lot of that you're looking forward to seeing more of? Like, you know, I always think that when you see a handful of golf courses by an architect, every time you play a new one, you get a greater appreciation for him. So I'm curious who you guys want to see more of.
I'd probably say, you know, you mentioned it earlier, but you know William Flynn. You know you hear of some of the courses that he's done that that are so amazing. And I have a couple of friends that are huge fans of his, and they, you know, tell me that he's their favorite. And I've only seen a couple and they've both been really, really good.
So buy him. Yeah, come on out here, because we are spoiled with William Flynn courses in the Philadelphia area. We have great ones everywhere out this way. For me, it would either be Mackenzie. I'm kind of on a little bit of the Mackenzie hunt lately, given that I just played my first couple of them over the last eighteen months or so, and obviously love his work. So far, I think I played six of his courses in total,
and I'd like to get that number up. Like Zach said earlier, I'd have to see one of his courses that I didn't really like, but beyond that, I'd love to see some more Langford courses.
Yeah, that's uh, you gotta come to the Midwest, John, We can do. I've been talking to this to Blake Conant, who's a construction guy for you know, golf courses, and he wants to do a Langford Moreau tour where we play like five courses in three days.
You guys are pretty lucky. You know. You're sitting here saying I want to you know, I want to see more of this, and you say come here, and you say I want to see more of this and you say, well you come to fill Ing and I'm stuck out there in Utah and there's absolutely no good ones.
So you know, Zach, I think you got the world's smallest violin given your occupation.
Yeah, good point, good point.
You know another I will agree there.
Nobody has hated me to play golf.
Yet. You guys are right, that was that time your fiction.
The Utah problem anyway, right, Zack, So you know that's the that's the plan there.
There's another guy I've been wanted to see is Ab McCann, who does I had a ton of courses up in the Northwest, and you know, these guys that follow Frida Egg have been telling me all about him. But you know, one of the places he originally laid out was cal Club and then he's just got you know, a flood of designs up in Oregon and you and Washington, lots of great country clubs.
You know.
Obviously one of the big problems up there is that they are very, very overgrown, so probably all need big tree removal projects done.
Amy McKenna just point out Lawyer by Day.
See, that's that's why you need to get there.
Any golf course architects like around you know that are building courses right now that you guys would want to go see more of their stuff, good question.
I mean I'll play any Core Crench Shaw course based on name alone. I think their work is are the best of the modern architects along with Tom Doak. I mean, anywhere I go, if there's a course by one of those guys that I will check it out, just assuming that it's going to be very good, given what I've seen of their work already. Gil Hants is another guy I really like. I'm talking to Andy about this the
other day. David David Eshler is a guy who's moving up on that list for me, given what I've a little that I've seen in his work, and what I'm hearing about is the work that he's currently doing. But those are those are really my guys. I mean, there's not many modern architects whose name alone will draw me to the course beyond the ones I just gave you.
You know, I'm really excited to I want to go up to the Pacific Northwest. There's this guy, Dan Hickson who I met at the PGA show and he's designed a he's been working for nine years on this reversible course. Obviously, Doak's opened last year, but this guy's been working on this reversible course for almost a decade and he's got it's like the most incredible story. So he has no social media handles, he has no website, you know, and I'm like, how how do people get a hold of you?
He goes, I figure, they'll, you know, find a way to get a hold of me if they really want to and and it turned you know, he played professionally. He's you know, his father was a golf pro in the area and he was a head pro. And then one day he just decided he wanted to be a golf course architect, quit his job and didn't go work for anybody, worked for himself, started doing like te's and bunker like singular teas and bunkers for courses around the
Pacific Northwest. And now I think this will be his third solo design. But you know, kind of a crazy story. I'm actually writing about it now, so that guy I really want to see. And then Dave Essler, I'm really He's got this project called Pacific Gales, which is on the the Oregon coast, and from what I've heard, it might be a better piece of property than any of the bandoned courses, which is crazy.
That Dan Hickson guy does a lot of good stuff up there too. A lot of people, you know, always are in my ear about that guy, you know, trying to get him to help out and stuff like that. So I think there's a lot of good guys. You know, a lot of people that do it now I think are pretty good. I think my biggest knock on anybody who builds golf courses right now, every single one of them makes the greens way too challenging and way too crazy. I just think you see so many of those old
golf courses that are so fun and enjoyable. The greens are so tame, and you know, there's a handful of greens on a lot of those old courses that are wild, you know, but there they are appropriate places, whether it's you know, a part five or a short part four.
You know, occasionally on a little part three. But you know, for the for the most part, the greens on those really good golf courses from the Golden Age, they're just they're so fun to put you know, they're not crazy and not too wild, at least from my perspective.
Yeah, I would agree with you. I played, I've played a good I'm now getting to be playing a good amount of dope courses. And that's just like my common complaint with them. I thought Stream Song Blue he did the best job I've seen where like he you know, it's like, you know, like you want to challenge a great player, but with these greens, but you know, you got to give somebody a place to land the ball.
Like I hate when you hit a shot ten feet from the flag and it spins down to like eighty feet away, or you know, if you land at one yard further tick off the back of the green like that, that to me is not you know, that's not challenging. That's just kind of stupid, you know, And I think I would agree with you in a certain extent with you know, I think a lot of new architects do a great job with it.
Though.
I think I think Bill Kohorr and Crenshaw do an awesome job rewarding really good golf shots, while you know, like if you hit an average one, you don't have a good look. I think like making it relatively flat around the pin is still you know, people try, and it's like anything, they try and reinvent the wheel. But like you, if I hit it to eight feet on a four hundred and forty part four, I should be given a pretty good look at Bertie.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And not only that, but you'll also end up with with ancillary benefits like better pace of play you give the golf, or the feeling like you can make some punts as opposed to just trying to lag everything through the crazy humps and swales, and you don't have as many three putts, which you know, no he likes the three putts, so you end up with a half eer golfer at the end of the round two. I mean, that's what Zack you said, you'll need to classic courses.
What you see.
You see huge greens that aren't necessarily flat and boring, but that have spots where you can make putts. And yeah, that's that's certainly my preference. You can talk about the ALP's punch bowl green. Just think about that green at Fishers at Island. It's this gigantic green that has a dividing pump running through the middle of it. But if you're on the correct side of the green, you're gonna have a really nice look at a birdie, whether it's
from five feet or twenty feet. Because the greens other than that one feature are relatively tame. To me, that's all you really need, you know, you don't need fifty different swales and mounds and bumps and bounces in every single green on the course. There's a place for it. I think Mayre Vinsula Dunes Club is a great example of the fifth green there. It's a drivable part four and the green is just insane. If you made eighteen
of those, you'd have a problem. But in isolation and moderation, that kind of extreme green I think does have a place. It's just when they go over the top with it and you end up with stressful putting situations time and time again. Like Andy said, no matter how good your approach shots are, I just don't find that to be a whole lot of fun. Yeah, I hate.
I just my biggest thing that I hate is when I get onto a green, you know, of one of those newer courses, and I've you know, hit a couple of decent shots, I guess, and maybe I haven't played that course enough to know where all the right places to miss are and I'm stuck all of a sudden with a with a putt where I literally have no chance to get this ball close. You know, the best you're gonna do is is twelve feet. If you hit like the miracle, best putt of your life, you're gonna
have like a twelve footer. And I've just I don't see that all that often on on some of those older courses. You know, I don't think you're in spots where you can't get it close as much on those older courses as you are on the newer courses that are you know, being built today.
Hey, did you watch the end of that golf last week? The playoffs?
I didn't, Which what are you talking about?
The waste manage? The one with Simpsons?
I did?
I saw.
I saw the playoffs.
He ended up so on sevent Team Zach. He ended up with that back pin. He ended up, Yeah, on the back right corner. I kind of nobody said anything. I almost said something, but I was like, that's kind of a stupid pin, you know, I did.
It's like, that's an interesting hole. I don't know where he was, but you can on that hole, like if you're on the green, if you're on the back right of that green and the pins all the way in that low back little finger, you can like boomerang it around. There is a way. But if you don't hit it really good.
You know, you could like hit it in the bunker or in the water.
So I mean, that's a that's a really interesting hole. But again, that's that's one of those areas where it is on like a three hundred and twenty yard drivable hole, you know, that makes you think, do I want to hit a driver up there? And if I don't hit it good, I'm totally botched over on the right where I don't have any sort of angle. Like That's why Hideki was hitting his three wood on that hole to the front of the green, because even if he blocked it,
he knew that he would have a shot. So that's one that I don't mind as much, you know, because it makes you think off the tee. You know, if Web was going to hit one out there to the right with the driver or whatever he hit and got it too far up, then he was really kind of jimmied there and wouldn't have a good angle. So that's kind of like more of a strategic thing there, because that green's not too out of control by any means.
It's just if you've missed that shot in the wrong spot, like with a drive going for the green, you can be in a really really bad spot. Wise, coff Is actually I played the so he redid that course, you know, I don't know if he built that course and redid it. They redid that a couple of years ago and he redid the the new he did the redo at the North course at Tory Pines and I thought he did a really good job. I've actually really enjoyed both of those, both of those redos. I thought he did a really
good job with them. You know.
He did TPC Deer Run too.
That's another course that I think is really really fun. They got a little driveable hole there too that I think it's like the fifteenth hole or something like that or fourteen, and it's kind of the same thing. They can get a back pin that if you do decide to go for it with a with a driver and you hit it right of the green, you can literally have no angle and you can be in a really bad spot where you just have to like ship it
out and take like a twenty footer. But again, that's that's on a rare circumstance where it is a drivable hole. And that's the same thing with seventeen. It's kind of like that at TPC Sawgrass. I mean a TPC that one last week, TPC Phoenix, Scottsdale. Whatever.
Yeah, it's that the I liked your run. I think it's uh. I think it's pretty solid little track. It's it's cool. There's a couple of little quirks and goofy things about it, but I feel like, you know, that's where me and you met. Yeah, yeah, that's that was That was first interview. So the yeah I played, I've probably played tournament golf out there like fifteen twenty times.
It's a cool little course, great great value too. I think you can play two rounds out there with the replay rate for like one hundred and thirty bucks peak season, which you.
Know the last two years it is poured. I haven't got to play that place firm and fast like you see it, you know, I mean, dang. When Stricker and Zach Johnson were winning out there like eight out of nine years, that place was so firm. It had like the longest drives on tour. You know, people were hitting at like three seventy and like three sixty on some
of those holes. It was just rolling forever. And I was just like keeping my fingers crossed that this year that I can actually get a drive over three hundred yards maybe once.
S So, what what's it like playing with like a guy like Gary Woodland, where like, I mean, like, what are you thinking about when when when you're out there and he was hitting at like wedge and you're hitting you know, a mid iron in.
I think the crazy theist example maybe ever was I played with Bubba at the Players one year last year in a practice round and I remember getting up on what hole. It's like maybe whole six and it's a short hole. But I liked to hit driver up there because if I hit a good drive, I got a wedge. And you know, some of the guys were maybe laying back with irons or whatever, and I thought it was a good hole for me to you know, if I hit it good, it was kind of an advantage for
me to get it up there. And so I was hitting driver one day in this practice round and I just like smoked a couple of them, and Bubba's like hand me the two iron, and he was hitting this like thirty yard like low fade, like getting the foot off the ground. You know, this thing is like going twenty yards past my driver. And I got out there and was like, are you kidding me? I was like, this guy's hitting iron past my driver. I was like,
this is the most crazy thing ever. And I mean but I I mean, I see it all the time. Guy is just bombing at way past me. It's uh, but you know, I figure if I can make some putts and hit some good that long irons kind of makes up for it.
Yeah, this is a I mean lots of ways to skin a cat, you know.
Yeah, the three hundred yard drive helps skin it faster though, so I would think.
So it is Bubba. Do you think he's the uh most like who's like the guy that you are most in kind of of like the way they play is he? Is he the number one guy that's like just kind of like from a just watching play like kind of shocking.
Yeah, yeah, I think he plays it. You know, he just plays solely off feel.
You know.
He hits all these wild shots and can do so much with the golf ball. It's pretty amazing to see. I mean, golly, hits it so far and he can hit it so high, and it's it's just pretty wild. It's it's pretty cool to see.
All right. So let's get back on subjects here with golf courses. John and Zach love to hear both of you know some trips you got lined up that you're excited about for the summer.
Yeah.
Sure, I'm going back to Northern California.
In at the end of April.
I'm awfully excited to get back out there see what we can find to play in that area.
I'm sure there's there's a few courses left.
I'm finally going to to hit Ohio for a long overdue golf trip. We talked a little about this last time, but there are just so many courses out there that I'm dying to see you, So that'll be a good one.
And then I have my my wife's big trip to Idaho this summer for her big race that I'm going to tag along for and play the curdling courses, play Rock Creek Cattle Company, which I really am looking for to see, and uh maybe go open to Canada and play vamp uh and then maybe do a little bit of a Western trip from there to play uh gods a Ranch and gamble stands in h in Washington. So that's one I'm really looking forward to this summer.
Well, I'm excited. Uh. Next week I'm hopefully gonna go play the Valley Club, which is McKenzie jim down on the way to Los Angeles, and then I usually try and get over to l A CEC during the during the week sometimes, so those are anticipated. I love l A. I've played there a bunch, but it's always one that I like to go back to. And then, uh, I'm gonna go play at Everglades Club during the week of the Honda, So I'm excited to play that little seth
Rainer track. I've heard it's a cool, little quirky little place, so I'm excited to see that. Uh. But some of the ones, you know, I've had a couple of people help out and try and get me out at Yaman's Hall, which I've wanted to see for a while. And then you know, I always talk about Essex and Myopia Hunt, so those are kind of the ones that I really
want to see, I guess. And then jeez, well, I mean I haven't played obviously enough golf in San Francisco, so you know Cal Club and SF Club or two that I really want to go check out.
Awesome, have you played Valley Club yet?
I know I haven't. Now every year after, you know, I always drive the whole West coast, so we drive from Pebble down to LA and I mean we drive right past it, and I'm always like, next year we'll play, and then the next year passes and I'm like, we'll go next year.
But that never happened so good. You're gonna love it.
Yeah, a lot of fictions to play.
It's just beautiful, you'll love it.
Yeah.
That So where do you guys stand, uh, L a CEC versus riv.
I'm I'm a huge LA fan, so I mean, it's not even an argument for me. But that's that's just how I fail.
I guess. I think Riviera is a terrisfic golf course that would happily play anytime at the mill in l A. I think it's one of the I think it's rightfully considered one of the top top fifty golf courses in the United States. I think it's easily worthy of that designation. But to me, L a c C is another is in another universe. H L a c C is one of the ten best courses that I've ever played. I
think it is phenomenal in every respect. I am desperate to get back out there and see the newly renovated South course, but the North course at L a cc is is top ten in the country for me as far as I'm concerned, I just think it's amazing.
Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I mean, riv is awesome. It's really really good. But like like John said, La is just it's on a It's in a different league.
I think.
And I actually got to go out and check out the renovated South Course when they were building it last year with Jeff Shappelford, and he took me around the place and showed me all the plans and stuff like that, and we went kind of hole by hole. And that place is going to be really really cool. I think that will be, you know, on that list of best thirty six whole clubs because I think it'll be such a perfect secondary course. It'll be it's a shorter track and it's going to be really fun and a lot
of you know, different looks. So I'm really excited to check that out.
That's awesome. So let's get to some Twitter question here before I let you guys go. So Chester wants to know what's the best golf course under sixty eight hundred yards from the tips.
Easy Cipher's point, yeahs, I don't know how.
I don't know how long Fisher's Island is, but Fishers has got to be kind of yeah, Fishers has got to be in that in that argument as well.
Akers.
Yeah, Fisher really good and there's no way Fishers is over sixty eight hundred yards.
Yeah, Shore Akers is under sixty eight. That's another great course. Lots of great golf courses under sixty eight hundred yards. I think got out in Philly.
To be honest with you, I bet your most of the Mcreiner courses that we know and love are under sixty eight hundred yards. I mean, I bet you mid eighty percent of them are under sixty eight. And by the way, as I'm looking at my little iPad right now, Somerset Hills, which we all love, is sixty seven fifty six from the tips, so that should be on that list as well.
Yep, for sure.
I think you know, I think yardage is so overrated when it comes to difficulty, and I think we're seeing it more and more, like to a certain extent, like it's all based off of conditioning. If it's firm and fast, and you probably can attest to this more as Zach, But that's the ultimate defense I imagine for a golf course. When it's soft, these guys will tear it up, you know, and you'll tear it up for godsss.
Yeah.
Like a perfect example of that is like the Utah Championship. You know, they had it at Thanksgiving Point, which is like this really long golf course, like around eight thousand yards, but it was like it was so firm and it's in the summer, and I kept trying to tell the guys like that set up the tournament, and that run the thing that I said, listen, guys, it does matter how firm this place is. I mean how long this
place is. If it's this firm, guys are going to be hitting it four hundred yards and you got it. You know, the ball's rolling forever. So yardage I think, honestly you can kind of throw it out the window because Buck you said, if you get it on a firm day, you can get the ball rolling so far that you know, yardages don't really mean all that much. And then the second point he said, if it gets soft,
it doesn't matter how long the golf course is. Guys are going to play good when you can aim at the stick and hit it on a number and it's going to stop on that number. These guys out here are so good that it doesn't matter. You could have six hundred yard par fours and guys are going to make pars because they can hit their third shot to ten feet and make the piot, So its yardage I don't think really matters at the end of the day.
Yeah, And you know, it's interesting you say that, Zach, because from my perspective as somebody who is not nearly
the caliber of golfer that that's who you are. When it's firm and fast, it actually allows me, no matter how long the course has been playing, and I'm not a long hitter by any means, it sort of neutralizes that that advantage that raw length gives and allows me to play with guys who hit it much much further than I do, because it brings all the other elements of my game into play and I can get some back with you know, creativity, a good player on the
greens or making putts, whereas if it's just a long, stretched out soft course, I'm at a natural disadvantage if I'm just hitting hybrids into every green where my opponent's hitting seven irons or eight irons or wedges, and you know, the software of the course, the easier it's going to be to dial in those yardages, like.
You were saying.
So I just for a player of my caliber or lack of caliber. I guess it's it's always nice when that distance issue is sort of negated by a really well conditioned, firm and fast course.
Yeah, Furman Fast is the way to go.
And by the way, on our list of under sixty eight hundred yard courses too that I feel compelled to mention Eastward Hoe on the Cape up in Massachusetts, which is one of my all time favorites. Max is out at something like sixty three hundred yards and it is as good course as you'll ever want to play, So
that's a great one. And then Crystal Downs is another one that I was thinking of, but I think it's about sixty five hundred yards from the back, which is easually one of the best courses in the Country's amazing when you look at how many of these truly classic courses are under sixty eight hundred yards that I think are universally loved and appreciated by all caliber players. So it really does say something I think about distance and how its impact is so overrated by so many people.
Yeah, you know, sometimes you get some of those courses that are show like that, but they got cross bunkers
and they got hazards in the right places. That force you to make decisions like do I take this hazard on with a driver or a three wood and bring you know, big numbers into play, or do I just lay back and have a mid iron in, which you know that that does the whole thing of negating what a total yardage of a golf course is, because if you're going to lay back with a three iron or a hybrid off the t and take a six iron in, that's making those three hundred and eighty five to four
hundred and forty yard holds into long car floors, you know what I mean, Because if you're if you're hitting mid iron in, it doesn't matter what you hit off the key, you're still hitting a mid iron in into the green. So I think that's where those guys were so good back then at you know, strategically placing the hazards in a right spot. That makes you think because now, I'll you know a lot of the times you just
see a couple of hazards on. You know, you see a bunker on the left and bunker on the right, and you can hit it as far as you want. That's straight, and that shortened the golf hole, you know, and the guys you know, you know, the driver is one of the easiest clubs in the bag to hit now because of how forgiving it is, and you know how good the balls are and everything like that. Guys
can hit it long and straight. You know, they get you know, when you throw something in the middle of the fairway or something that you kind of have to think about. That's when golf gets a little harder and gets a little you know, tougher to think about shots.
Yeah, great point.
I agree. I had Michael Clayton on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and you know, he was spectacular and he you know, he's got this old school golf you know, kind of vibe to him. And the thing he thought that was just so criminal about the professional game is that, you know, he thinks everybody should have to carry a two iron, whether they use it or not, they should have to know how to hit a two iron because what technology's done has decreased the skill out of the game.
I was talking to Jeff Ogilvie the other day, and you know, he was talking to my court a little bit. They were talking about about tennis and how in some of the Grand Slams and you know, the big tennis tournaments they actually dial back to golf the tennis ball and make the court a little softer and stuff like that. And he said they do basically the same thing in
in the professional game in golf. You know, the courts is they're so wet most of the time, and they don't like to see the ball running and rolling and bouncing and you know, getting those big hops on the greens. They like to see you know, it stin back and they like to see it be able to you know, stop it next to the hole that they've kind of you know, made the PGA tooler golf and you know golf in general kind of like slow court tennis to where it doesn't it kind of affects the game and
doesn't make it as fun or as skillful. You know, you just kind of that's hit it at a target and it stops next to the hole, and that's all you have to do. You know, sometimes when you go over to Scotland and stuff like that and you play the ground game and you have to really know how you know, how a ball is going to react and
how far you want this thing to run out. You've got to use different contours and different slopes, that's when golf is really fun and more challenging, I think, than just having to hit it one hundred and forty yards and it's going to stop it at one hundred and forty if you hit at that distance. So I think I agree with him. You know, I think skill has
been taken a little bit out of the game. Not to say the people out here aren't extremely talented and extremely good, but it's just a different game.
You know.
You just kind of hit it as far straight as you can and then hit it straight at the flag, you know, ninety percent of the time.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, it's just to give you the other perspective again, like Zach said, you know, when you're talking about a higher handicap or like like I am. I mean, certainly I can't master my yardages.
Like like you or Zach can.
But so the more the golf course rewards that style of golf, the bigger the differential gets between you know, me playing to a six and the guy playing to a three, and me and you two, and guys at your level where you can't really play a functional match
on that kind of course. When when the skill level diverges to a certain point, but the more you bring in that ground game, the more you bring in the ability to be creative and be strategic and do things that aren't necessarily entirely physical, the more fun the game become. In my view again, and that's just the perspective of a of a of a mediocre hack, but that's how I feel.
You know, John, You've put me in Zach's skill level way too much for me not to say from.
My perspective, From my perspective looking up at you guys, you mean either one of you is gonna kick my ass the exact say, so you are.
Level, there's a whole there's a whole other level that he's on that is so much different than what I'm on. So's you know where they're.
All remind you know where all this kind of takes me back to.
To like a perfect place.
For us to go play with the National You know, we could all go out there and figure out a nice game to play, and we're all going to go out and make a couple of birdies. You know, some of them might be made in different ways. You know, maybe I drive number two. But you know, then we get to a short part three where you know, you don't have to hit it two hundred and twenty yards on a rope. You know, you just got to be creative and get it in the right spot and kind
of funnel a shot in certain places like that. That's why National and some of the steth rain nur SEV McDonald's courses are so good in my opinion, because you can take a guy that's a seven handicap, and you can take a guy that's a scratch player, and you can take a professional golfer and you could all go out there and have fun and enjoy it to where you could go out to a you know, a championship track, you know, a place like Baltusrol, and I'm probably gonna
be the only one making a lot of birdies out there if I play good. You know, it's just it's just it's just a hard golf course. Somebody that's a six handicap that doesn't hit it three hundred dollars, it's going to have a really hard time out there.
I can verify that firsthand. Babus Roll crushed me and a player like you, Zach would beat me by fifty at Ballus Roll and I would have a miserable time. Uh And we couldn't have any kind of functional match, and to me, that's tragedy, especially given the match how
the roots the game. But you're right. At a place like National, even even carrying my six and even hitting the ball much shorter than you guys do, I can get around that and I can score it National because I can use the parts of my game that are strong to get the ball in the hole. At a place like baldis role. If I can't hit it as far as I need to, I have no option. It's either make the carry or don't. It's either hit the fairway or don't. It's either hit the green or don't.
And if I and if any of those don't happen, I'm making bogie worse. Where a National, I don't need to hit it two hundred and fifty yards to make a par, you know, I don't. I don't need to hit every green in regulation and two putt just to get around the course. I can. I can do other things that don't require physical skills that I don't have, And to me, that is really what makes those courses a treasure to all kinds of players.
Yeah, I agree, that's that's the.
Best thing I played. I played with a guy who plays on a web tour, and we've got a foursome that we play a couple of times in the summer and it's you know, three really good mid end players and him and we played Olympia Fields North, so US open course and he shot sixty eight and then we had like seventy five, seventy seven, eighty two, you know, and it's like a perfect example. Then we go out to Sand Valley and it's super playable, you know, where
there's all kinds of options in play. He ended up beating us, but it was a lot closer than the drubbing he gave us an Olympia Fields North.
Yeah.
I mean I went in when I wanted, When my first you know, inklings and ideas of the Buck Club came around, I wanted to build like a championship style track that was like meant for a scratch golfer, and you know, it was really hard and he was going to beat you up and you had to play really good.
And then my kind of whole world flipped around when I saw some places like National and I saw, you know, some of these unbelievable just classic little gems that are quirky and fun and sporty, and you know they're they're not long yardages. It's just so much more fun to play a golf course that anybody in your forsom can play, no matter if they're, like you know, a long handicap
or a scratch player. It's just more fun for everybody when you build a course like that that everyone can get it around and make birdies and have fun right.
Right, all right right to me, that's the biggest difference, Zach. It's just it tends to be less fun for me. Look, every golf course is going to have holes where if I'm playing the same keys you guys are, that a golfer like me won't be able to reach in regulation. So to a certain extent, physical abilities are going to limit what a golfer like me can do on those courses. What I don't like is when a golf course demands it consistently a whole after whole after whole physical skill
that me and twenty of other golfers don't have. Give me a way to get the ball in the hole, even if it's a goofy way, even if it's a way that might not be obvious that I have to puzzle out and really think it over, but give me an out. And that's why I think all three of us love Stephen McDonalds so much, because he was sure of the grandfather of that idea, you know, give everybody away to get the ball in the hole and have fun.
And I just again, I think the classic courses do have so much better than many of the modern ones.
All right, So we're we're running up on a lot of time here, so you know, and the so everybody gets through to the end. I mean, we're gonna, we're gonna call it. We're gonna have one last question here. So Andrew had a question for Zach and it was, you know, regarding your favorite course in the Northeast amateur circuit. And I'll just open it up with John. You know, favorite kind of prestigious Northeast club side of McDonald We're gonna put a kibosh on McDonald and.
Oh, I don't know, like any club in the Northeast.
Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna adapt. His His question was for you your favorite course on the amateur circuit.
Oh, oh, man, you know, wanta moist it up in up in Rhode Island. It's the Old Donald Ross Course, but I mean, the thing's on like one hundred acres. It's teeney, but it's so fun and it's really really cool. I would say that. Or Sonny Hannah that's another chilly that's pretty good. Those are both really really cool.
And then I've never I've never played the Northeast amateur circuits. But uh, I'll give you a couple of my favorites real quick. It would be going south to north. It would be Somerset Hills Sweepy Hollow, which I love over that to McDonald so cross that one off. And then up in Boston. Zach mentioned these two places earlier, and it's kind of interesting that you haven't played in me because he's in for a treat. My Opion Club is one of my favorite clubs anywhere, and its neighbor, Essex
County Club is also one of my favorites. Just too incredible places.
All right, well we're we'll wrap it up there and uh, Zach, good luck this week.
Man.
Uh, you know, thank you guys for having me.
It's fun to fun to talk about this. We should do it more often.
Yeah, we'll have to do some sort of like a quarterly check in or something. See what everybody like. Yeah, well and then we'll have to get the games that we talk about set up one of these days.
Yeah, yeah, we we should do it at National.
I think that's a good spot.
You know, I would happily, I would happily get beat by you guys as National or anywhere else for that matter, but National or Summerset, I think I think those are the two where we gotta we gotta do it.
Yeah. I've never been to New York, so I need to, you know, get to New York City for more than just I've never been to New York City for anything, and it's kind of crazy.
Actually well yeah, well that's a that'd be a good way to enter in there, so figure.
All right, Well thanks a lot, guys. Uh it was fun and uh we'll uh, we'll talk to you guys soon.
Yeah, you're in a strate.
This was Jack.
Thanks