Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast and the Yoke with Doak. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at B Dratty Golf. Season is in full swing and we have our pro shop all stocked up with some great B Dratty gear, including a few different polos featuring their soft Peruvian cotton and their Russ krew neck. The russkrew neck is one of my favorite items. I know it's summer, it's summer, I know that, and this is a sweatshirt, but I've got
a cold basement. I still wear my Russ crew necks all around the house. I'm a huge fan of the Russ crew neck. It's probably my favorite piece that be Dratty makes. They were in such high demand we did it. We placed an order about a year and a half ago, and they were in such high demand last year during the winter and fall seasons, we couldn't get our hands
on a reorder for the pro shop. So get these while you still can, and also from now till the end of the weekend May fourteenth, all of our polos on our pro shop are twenty percent off, so go check them out at www. Dot thefridagg dot com and if you want a polo that doesn't have our logo, go to b Dradty dot com. This edition of The Yoke with Doc is the last episode from our massive recording that we did in late January. Obviously, quite a bit has happened in the world since then, it seems
like a very very long time ago. In this episode, we talk mostly about Tom's very unique new project in the Napa Valley area. And Tom has also has some big news and something well. I'm sure we'll talk and dive into more in the coming months. But he's got a new book coming out which is available for pre order now. It's called Getting to Eighteen. It's coming out in a few weeks. He dives into the routing process
at all of his early designs in this book. I got a chance to read a few of the chapters a while back, the first couple chapters when he started working on this book, and it was riveting. I hadn't played two of the three courses that I read the chapters on, and I found myself actually more compelled with the courses I hadn't played yet. So if you're an architecture fan and you like books. I would definitely recommend getting to eighteen. And you can order that book on
his website, Renaissance Golf dot com. It's available for pre order. I know he only is publishing a certain quantity, So if you want to get this book, you should get it now. And now, without further ado, here is Tom Douk I miss.
A green for example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball.
In a fried egg Frida egg, the dreaded fri bride egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
How'd you come up with the Doak scale?
Really, it was just, you know, the idea for the Confidential Guide originally was just that I'm writing reviews of golf courses. And we talked a little last night. I mean one of my inspirations. I'm a big baseball fan, and a book.
That I had read.
A couple of years before that that I that I really loved was a book by Bill James, the baseball stats nerd who you know eventually got in the baseball business and was advisor to teams for years, and he wrote something in the eighties when he was just you know, nobody knew who the hell he was, and he lived
in Kansas by himself. But he was really analyzing baseball in his spare time, and he wrote something called the Baseball Abstract, which was a lot of the same topics that he would cover for teams now and all the essays he does about you know, just bunting, help you know, how important are take how important is being able to
take a walk versus swinging at every pitch? But he also his Baseball Abstract, the funniest part of it by far, he would rate every player in the major leagues, or every starting player in the major leagues, by position, so center fielders, here's the best one, number one, all the way down to number twenty four. But he would also write like a paragraph or two about those players, and his little reviews of the players were just funny as hell.
You know, well it could be, you know, sometimes they were dead serious and like this is why I don't like this guy so much. And sometimes it's like, you know, everybody knows he's a great player, so let me write something different about him that nobody would know. There's no point in saying that Ricky Henderson's a great player, or Pete Rose was still a great player back then, or whoever.
You know.
He could write that. He could write something funny or critical or negative about Ricky Henderson, but he also had him rated as the number one left fielder, and that compensated for whatever he wanted to write about. So when I was writing my reviews of golf courses, I wanted something so I could say, you know, instead of telling you that I think Pebble.
Beach is a really, really good golf course and.
That the sixth hole through the tenth hole are is the best stretch of golf holes anywhere in America. You know, everybody knows that, there was no point me write and about that. So I wanted to write about the holes that I didn't like, but I wanted something in there to say, Okay, these are the holes I don't like, but I'm not saying it's not.
A really good course.
So I could write my semi negative review of Pebble Beach and give it a nine on the dok scale and everybody would go, oh, okay, you know, he doesn't think it's one of the ten best courses in the world, but he still really thinks it's good. He's just saying, this is why it's not one of the ten best courses in the world.
And also like on the flip side, give a course that gets everything out of itself praise, but also reference like this isn't Pebble Beach.
Still, yes, absolutely, yeah, I really had fun here and there was this one cool hole. But it's only a four or five. Let's not get carried away. And you know, as my current wife says, it's not it would have been a great book without the numbers, because people focus so much on.
The numbers instead of the reviews.
But but people would say you hate Pebble Beach without the number.
They still say I hate Pebble Beach because it's not a ten. It's you know, it's just it's crazy. How if I didn't give a golf course an eight or a nine or a ten.
Everybody thinks I hate it.
And you know, I I enjoy playing a lot of courses there are a five on the dok scale or even below sometimes.
You know, I'm just.
You know, the number says Okay, just because I like this doesn't mean you should fly to halfway across the country to get there tomorrow. You know, it's fun when you're there, you know, take it on those terms.
That's why I think is the best part is it gives context to it, because like there could be a really great golf course, but it's not.
You know, it puts it into.
Context of like this is a great golf course, but like it's not get on a plane to go see it's if you're in the area. That's the thing I find the most interesting. I'm curious, what what's the best What's the course that you've seen make the biggest jump in your eyes from like a project they did, like where it's gone from say a five. What's the biggest jump in in the number that you've seen happen from work?
Uh, I don't know, because usually you know, I would I would tend to rate the golf course higher if I thought that I would rate it fairly high originally. If I thought that it was a good golf course and they just kind of messed up some things, I wouldn't you know, I'd still give it a pretty good score instead of instead of knocking the grade way down because it was a mess right now, because you know, I assume that sooner or later some of that stuff
would get fixed. So so the ones that I've changed my mind on and rate it much higher, it hasn't been so much because somebody restored him and did a great job. I'd already given them some points for that. It's more like, you know, I just when I saw this golf course, especially the courses that I saw in the UK thirty five years ago, when I was on that trip, It's like, Okay, I've I just spent a month in Saint Andrew's, I'd just been a week at Royal Dornick, and now I'm here and this is a four.
Of five compared to them.
And then I go back years later and I'm like, oh, this is like a six or a seven compared to everything else in the world. It's just when I saw this in nineteen eighty three, I had just spent a week at all the nines and tens, and you know, it was just hard to rate them that highly and compare with those golf courses.
So, you know, it's more about, you.
Know, the dark scales not infallible. You know, when when I have to fix something, it's more that I just did a bad job rate in the golf course the first time, you know, it's like if it poured rain and you could barely you know, look forward and see the golf hole. It's hard to rate the golf course really highly no matter what. And you know, there's a few that that's the only time I saw them.
Yeah, and I tried. You know.
The one thing I'll say in my defense of that is I would at least try to write about that in the book, you know, if if I didn't like it, and it was partly because it was just a shitty day to play golf, that's probably in my review of the golf course that like, you know, maybe this would be better if you could see.
I mean, it's with anything like the you could have happened with a restaurant.
You know, absolutely even the best restaurants in the world occasionally don't hit the mark.
Or if you've had like a shitty day going into it, yeah, and you just aren't in the you just have had it. It's a that's a that's the thing with like your your experience and perception of things are so much a part of everything else that happens.
Well.
A lot of golfers there their review of something is entirely based on how well they played entirely. Anybody that has a whole rank exit and that's.
That's not that is not me at all.
I mean, I could play bad and still think it's a great golf course, and I can play good and still think it's a crappy golf course. In fact, if I play really good, you start I start to question if this could be really a really good course.
But I've noticed sometimes when I play my worst rounds, I have the most appreciation because I'm all over the place.
Sure, you can you actually see how the architecture works when you're out of position. If you just if you you were standing in the middle of every fairway two ninety off the tea looking at the green, Golf's pretty dull a lot of the time.
Exactly, and you're not anywhere, but it's it's I've had an experience recently where I the first time I played it, I played it just like one of my best rounds ever, and it was just And then the next time I was in a really bad place and I was all over.
But then all of a sudden it.
Became way more fun because I was you know, I saw the way all these different the green contours work in a different way, you know, so that it's I totally agree with that, and I.
Do when we're building courses. You know, well we actually start. When you're building a course, usually you put a steak, a big a steak with like a ten foot piece of pipe attached to it at the tee and the landing area for the drive and then at the green. And you know, early on you tempted to like stand at the post in the landing area and look at the green from there and think that's the approach shot
that people are going to have. But you know, if you're not a really good player, you're not going to be right at that stake. You could be forty fifty yards behind it, thirty yards offline to either side whatever, you know, because you're not Jack Nicholas and you don't hit it right to the steak all the time. And that's actually you know, so I've stopped first, I stopped standing at the stake. I would go look twenty from twenty yards to the right and twenty yards to the left.
One course, I told Eric Iverson when he was first starting working for me, just try to make the green look really different from if you're standing right of the steak, or stand in left of the steak. If you make it feel different, that'll be an interesting golf hall, no
matter what you build for the green. But you know I would start after a while, I started thinking, you know, you remember where the steak was when you're playing the golf course, and you just start laughing to yourself, like, nobody's near the steak.
Here. We are, four of us, we've just hit our.
Drives, nobody's anywhere close to that steak was. So eventually I just said, let's throw that sucker out of here and not pay any attention to it at all, and just build hazards that look interesting and not worry about whether they're too sixty from the tee or two eighty from the tea.
You know, and not.
You know, hopefully we don't repeat ourselves, but you know, I think my golf course has got to be more interesting when I did that, when it's not all based on how far is a good drive?
And that's like the interesting thing you talked about earlier with the the kid that was talking about design with all analytics is that if it becomes all analytical, what happens when the analytics change?
Yeah, I mean, you know, Jack Nicholas talks about, well, you know, the equipment's.
Changed so much.
He has to go back and change a lot of his golf courses because they were designed around a two hundred eighty yard drive, and now they should be designed around a three hundred yard driver, a three hundred.
And ten yard drive. But really.
He shouldn't have designed them around a two hundred eighty yard drive, because that's that's an average.
That's not everybody.
I mean, if you put all the fairway bunkers at two eighty, there's guys that can fly everyone, they're irrelevant completely to them. And there's guys that are short of that, and they're irrelevant completely to those guys. And you're just pounding the same guy who hits it to seventy five. He can never carry the bunker, and you know the golf course is a lot harder for him. The hard part is, you know, when you're a good, really good player and you're designing golf courses, you don't think about
it in terms of all your peers. You think of it in terms of you, and you think I hit it. You know, a two hundred and eighty yard drive is much better for me than a two hundred and sixty yard drive A two hundred and sixt yard drive I missed, So I should penalize that and reward a two hundred and eighty yard drive. But that doesn't apply to the guy plan next to you. You know, for him, those numbers might be two forty and two sixty, or they might be too eighty and three hundred.
And isn't that that randomness that you're kind of alluding to the with all the golfers and the averages. Isn't the randomness what makes the old course so brilliant?
I certainly think so.
I mean, you know, I've been misquoted as saying that, you know, we just place bunkers completely at random, which is not literally true. I mean, you know, when you've laid out the hole, you sort of decided where to put the tea and the landing area based on the landform, and you know you're looking at potential places to put a bunker, so it's not random when you put a
bunker there. All I've ever said was I'm trying to mix it up, and you know, hopefully you can just mix it up by putting things where they look good and seem to make sense and that's not always the same distance, but you're not really paying that close attention. You do have to go back, and you know, we do go back and check ourselves to make sure that we didn't put every fairway bunker at two forty and right.
You know that would be terrible if.
You just kept if you just kept hurting the same player. That doesn't make sense to me at all.
And I think that's something that with like playability has become such a big talking point. And you know, you architecture's got this pendulum. And one of the things if you think about playability for the twenty handicap at some point that I had a reader one time email me and say, you know one thing you're forgetting about is that I, as a twenty five handicap. One of the
things I want to be thrilled. I want hazard to my way because if you remove everything for me, then you're robbing me the experience of golf.
Yes, it just becomes boring. You know.
The idea that you know, it's the nineteen fifties idea. Both Trent Jones and Dick Wilson thought the same way. The bunkers should be out there where the average guy doesn't even get to them, which you know makes the game from tee to green pretty boring. For the guy that can't quite reach all those hazards. It's just like, Oh, I'm just trying to hit it as far as I can, but I know I'm not thinking about going left of that bunker.
It doesn't make any difference.
Yeah, that's so.
Golf Guide had a question about the Maha project and is it similar to any projects you've worked on before.
Well, this is what I haven't talked about very much because it's in northern California, and you know, permits take years and years in California, and the clients are especially concerned about whether some you know, there's more people potentially around to come and pick it and you know, disturb a permit meeting and you know, set the project back. So while they've been in the process of getting permits for it, they've wanted to keep it quiet what we're
working on. But it's a resort project in northern California, and it's close to Napa, but it's it's out of Napa County because years ago I was involved with the project that we were trying to get permits to do something in Napa County. You know, in connection with that Etna Springs project that we did, we're going to build another eighteen whole course, but Napa County made it just impossible to get permits. I've never been to public meetings like those.
There's more than four people in the backyard.
There were a lot They came with their own avy, you know, they came with their own little film in opposition to the golf course. And that was just the start of it. It was a brutal process. So so you really can't build a new course in Napa County at all. And I don't blame them in a way. You know, if Napa County hadn't been so standoffish about zoning for years, you couldn't even drive up that road in the valley anymore. I mean, there would be so much traffic and so much stuff there it would have
been ruined. So good for them that they protected that. But you know, luckily the county that's next to them is like, oh no, we're not like that.
We'd actually like so development here.
And so my clients have planned a very high end resort. You know, they've always built smaller boutique hotels, very small, you know, and you know they're they're almost marketed as for non golfers because you know, they're romantic places to take your wife, and they're very expensive. And the fact that they're so small means they don't support a golf course. You know, it's hard to operate a golf resort when there's only sixteen rooms at your hotel or twenty four rooms.
You know, even if everybody was playing golf, the course wouldn't be doing enough business to make money.
So that wouldn't make any sense.
So, you know, the developers right at the start they said, I said, well, you know, I know you've never done golf, but you don't really hate golf, do you. And they're like, no, no, we don't hate golf. It just the scale of it never made sense for us. But this, this is a
this is a huge piece of land. It's twenty five thousand acres and it's so they're going to do three or four small hotels on their property, a couple miles apart from each other, that are way different from one another, and but the critical mass of all of those means, okay, now it makes sense if they.
Have golf too.
So I said to him in the beginning, well, you know, what don't you like about what don't you like about golf? And the main client said, you know, it's I mean, he's always built resorts in beautiful places with a beautiful beach, but always small and very focused. And he said, I just don't like the big green blob. You know, it just seems to dominate. It takes up so much land
and it dominates the landscape. And you know, I've always been about the you know, small intimate thing and the perfect view, and that just doesn't seem to.
To relate to it.
And I sort of nodded, and I could understand where he was coming from on that. You know, it's like the golf course takes over.
The view of the landscape.
When you look at the landscape, you see a golf course now instead of seeing beautiful oak trees and yellow grasses and vineyards and whatever else is out there. So so that you know, they had all these pretty famous architects around that they're you know, each of them is going to design a separate little resort. So they're all around the table talking about it, and you know they're talking about how one of them is probably going to be like an equestrian oriented.
Resort where you can ride horses.
And they're talking about, well, you know, to ride a horse from the one resort over to the other resort three miles away and have lunch over there and ride back and kind of make a day out of it. And I sort of filed that away mentally. And so when you know, this is a I mean, this is not only a big piece of ground, but it's a really rugged piece of ground.
I mean there's there's.
Streams running through it, there's a river on one side, There's you know, three or four hundred feet of elevation change easily. There's mountain views in all directions. It's a really dramatic piece of land. Without an ocean, but it's
a really dramatic piece of land. And you know, it would have been hard to just build an eighteen whole course in one piece of it that worked really well, you know, just you know a bunch of holes out and back to the clubhouse like you think of a typical country club, because you know, there's big elevation changes to deal with, and you know it would have been hard walking back and forth. So I started thinking, and you know, when they when they started talking about these
other activities that can connect the resorts together. I said, what if I did the golf course like that? You know, what if the golf course started up here and finished way over there, Because that then it wouldn't be a green blob. It'd kind of be a line through the property.
Almost like a meanders through the property like a trail.
And and when you're close to it, a lot of times you're just looking across one hole. You know, you got forty yards of green grass and then a bunch of native plants on the other side, and you know, you're not looking at the big green blob at all. If you're not looking at a bunker or something golf specific, you probably wouldn't even know that that was a golf
course at all. And immediately the client was like, that sounds really interesting, And so we now have a golf course laid out that the first tee is four hundred and fifty feet higher than the eighteenth green and two miles away. And it doesn't it's not all just straight in the line. It kind of you know, the the front nine kind.
Of from where you start.
You start up on the on a high hill with a gorgeous view, and you play three or four holes just staring down into a deep canyon that's a couple
hundred feet below you, and then you play back. You kind of loop back toward the starting point, but not all the way to it, and then out through this big meadow to a halfway house sitting on a ridge, and then from there, from the tenth tee to the eleventh green, the course drops like four hundred feet, so it drops so fast that we we were like, I don't even think we can put a golf cart path
down this thing. It's so steep. So we're actually gonna I have like a funicular to get from the tenth tee to the tenth green down the hill and then and then the eleventh is still way downhill too, but but you've got to there.
You've got a place to make the car path kind of wind around and get down there.
So it's this huge landscape with a golf course running through it, but it, you know, it doesn't feel like a golf It doesn't feel like a normal golf course really at all.
I don't think.
I mean, just those when you stand where the half way house is and you look down at where the eleventh green and the twelfth hole are going to be your like, my god, that's just that's so far down there, and it's and it's seems the scale of this place is just off the charts.
And have you ever had a course where, you know, more than a couple hundred yards the starting position the ending eighteen is first and eighteen.
Yeah, I've done that once or twice before. You know, Black Forest and Miss was like that one of my early courses, and that was strictly because the client had you know, they they had an existing course and a clubhouse, and then they didn't own you know, there were a bunch of lots that they'd sold and we so we couldn't start an end right near the clubhouse, but we figured out a way to start fairly close to the clubhouse.
And then it didn't make sense to go way back up the hill from sixteen or seventeen to try to finish there. We just finished in the valley and then you ride back after you're done. And then Dismal River kind of the same thing. You know, their clubhouse was already away from the first golf course, and they had a bunch of lots planned around where their clubhouse was, so there was no and the land was really rugged there, so it didn't make sense to try to get our
course really close. And you know, once you're you know, once you're starting a mile away from the clubhouse, it's like, does it really matter if we finish where we start?
Could beating?
You know?
I asked the client that point blank, really early in the process at Dismal River, and he looked at me really funny, like what do you mean? But you know, and then I explained it. I'm like, well, you know, you're going to have to take a cart from the
clubhouse all the way out here to start. Is it important to finish here so you could take the cart all the way back or could we you know, could we finish down there by the river instead, because there's some there's some land for some beautiful holes down by the river. But I don't really want to play the two holes straight up the hill it.
Would take to get out of there.
I'd rather just finish there and then you take a cart back to where you're going. And he said, no, that's fine, let's do that. And you know, you know, there's some people that just will not accept this as a viable alternative for a golf court. So you know, I've had some good friends that you know, you can't you know, it's important to finish close to the clubhouse and have that intimacy and finishing way down there on
the river way away just doesn't make any sense. And you know, I say, but there's not even there's not even a pro shop by the first tea, so why
would you want to finish back there? So the course, the Maha course, will take that to a whole new level of stretching the golf course out on a string and not really feeling like you're you know, you're just moving away from the clubhouse and meandering around, but you are doing it in I think the most dramatic landscape that I've ever had to build a golf course in.
I mean, you can't there are no holes like that eleventh hole because on other golf courses, because on other golf courses you'd have to get back up the hill. And you know, the only way you build a hole like that is if you don't have to go back up there.
Yeah, I mean, it's like it's like a hike. You know, there aren't there aren't many hikes where you get to just go and to the end because you always have to come back to where you started.
Right And you know, and I've been describing this in terms of golf carts, but part of the idea of it is it's walkable because you know, even because you don't have to hike all the way back up the hill. You know, the greens and teas are all close together, and you're.
Going to like another part of the resort, and you can get a shuttle.
Back exactly You're going to another part of the resort, and you know you'll have a beer or you have lunch or dinner down there when you're done, and then get shuttled back to your hotel.
It's got to be that's got to be one of the most unique routing exercises you've ever got to do, because it threw throws one of the rules like out of play.
I love it when I can throw rules out of play.
And you know, it almost had to be something like that because the ground is so rugged. I mean, when when you think about that concept on a normal piece of land, you know, you would have like a million different options on what to do and it would take forever to figure out or how am I gonna you know I could go anywhere with this routing now, so how am I going.
To decide what's the best solution.
This land is rugged enough that you know, there's not a whole ton of places you could go. It's not like, you know, we're not going to go off the off the cliff by the second tee down into that valley unless we're going an entirely different direction and finishing somewhere way away. And then that valley with the stream going through it is too narrow for a golf hole.
So I thought about it, but it just didn't make any sense to go.
Down there, and there were really like you know, if you I usually make a lot of the decisions about how a routing works on a map and then go check it out in the field to see how it works. And sometimes you know, when you're out in the field you see something.
You know, wow, there's a huge beautiful oak tree there.
We should play the play a hole over that way, which you wouldn't have seen on the map. So I do go back and forth. It isn't all based on the map. Bill Correr, when I worked with them at stream Song, when we were trying to put the routings together, for the two courses. He really does most of it in the field.
You know.
He starts from one point and he looks at how many holes, how many different holes could I play from here? I could make a par five go into that hill over there, or I could make a par four go in along this water, or I could make a par three to that little knob, or I could make a par three behind me.
You know.
So he'll have like four or five different places that it looks like that's a good hole, and then he'll go to every single one of those places and do the same thing. So he's got like a million vectors of different places that you could connect together, and you know, and he's trying to see how do I connect these together. In the case of Maha, they don't have to connect to you know. The only thing that has to connect
together is one green to the next tea. But I don't have to work my way back around to that first point.
It's a very different thing.
Yeah, Yeah, I had a similar after the President's Cup. I started thinking about, hey, where can we have the Presidence Cup in the United States? That would provide a really you know, compelling golf course in the same vein same.
Time a year.
And I kept landing and the place I landed on was stream Song, but as a composite course. And then I put together like I have like twenty different and I couldn't stop doing it. One day and I felt like I would just I would get here and I'd be like, well, I could go this way or this way, and then you's it was really a fun experiment.
Well, a couple of those exists, not because we were trying to plan a tournament, but you know, very early in that process, you know, Bill had already started working on routings, and at the time the the client wanted one of only one of us to build a golf course where we did, and the other one of us to build another golf course somewhere else on the property, you know, possibly where the Black course was, possibly where the hotel is, and there was one other site two
or three miles away from those two. And you know, Bill and I both, I mean, the land that we ultimately built on was so dramatic, and you know it was it was so natural for building a golf course in its re configured mind state that we both were attracted to that right away. You know, Bill had tried to just lay out eighteen holes over it, and you know, you were giving up a lot of other good holes. You know, there was clearly enough room on it for
twenty seven really cool holes. We weren't sure that there was enough room for thirty six holes, but we sort of agreed between ourselves, you know, if we work together, we could probably figure out how to make thirty six holes here. And the client, rich Mack, was concerned that, you know, we would crowd each other too much and you know, and spoil it somehow, and we were like, don't worry.
About that, just let us work on it for a while.
And see if we can put put it together between us. So that's how we did it. We you know, we tried to fit thirty six holes in. They're the best we could without you know, without having to go into the tougher land or do things that really required a lot of earth moving, and we couldn't quite do it.
We could only come up.
With like thirty or thirty two holes that really fit. And eventually Bill went and walked where the first six holes are on the red course. Part of it hadn't been mine. The second and third holes that was just a flat boggy stretch that they were gonna mind that they've still had a mine, and he just kind of sucked it up and said, you know, if we did if we did this little this loop of six holes out here, then then we can make the rest of
it work pretty easily. And I said, okay, And and we came up with that routing of the red and blue. And you know, we came up with the routing of the red and blue having not decided which one of us would do which course that came at the very end, and neither one of us really wanted to be the guy who.
Decided, Yeah, that's that's one of the cool, cool projects of the modern era for sure. So we uh, we covered a lot. We're we're gonna we're gonna pack this up for the day. And thanks again obviously for the time, and really excited hopefully the the Maha project permits for out because it would be a really neat, neat and different golf course than we've seen.
I think we're gonna get there.
You know, it's gonna ta It's not an easy site to build on either, as you as you probably guess, it's rocky, so it's gonna take you know, if we get started on it this spring like we want, it's still going to take two years to build in, a year to grow in. So it's twenty twenty three probably before anybody's playing golf there, but hopefully it's worth the way. It's a really different thing, and thanks for coming to Traverse City. It's nice to do a home game every once in a while.
Yeah,