I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a fried egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday fridagg Bride Egg.
Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. I am your host, Andy Johnson, and today I got a fun podcast for you guys. I think I am joined by a few different guests, and I pose the question to an assortment of people, what is the biggest question in golf that you're thinking about a lot?
You know?
So, what is the big topic that you don't necessarily know the answer to, or just a general topic that you're thinking about a lot when it comes to regards to golf. So the guests for this podcast are Kyle Porter, who is the author of a great newsletter, The Normal Sporter. He writes on CBS Sports, also a co host of the First Cut podcast. Brian Schneider, a golf course architect.
You know, He's built a lot of new courses that are getting a lot of claim, restored, a lot of great golf courses, worked with Tom Doak for years and then also Roberto Castro. Roberto is a co host of the Course Record podcast, a former PGA tour player, and I think, just in general, a deep thinker. So before we get into this podcast, let's talk a little bit about our sponsor, Red Rooster Golf. Red Rooster's great. They are partnering with us for our club TFE gift and
they've got a great deal for you guys. These are great gloves. I love my Red Rooster glove. I'm a big fan of it, and they have an awesome deal Buy two, get one free on premium headcovers, belts, and performance socks. These are new products. They just launched their new braided belts which have been a big hit so far, stylish neutral colors, and they got a bunch of sizes available.
The socks are a popular item as well. Who doesn't need a good pair of socks, and they offer a bunch of colors to choose from, as well as long or short options. So on top of that by two get one free deal, they also have a buy one glove and get the second fifty percent off and all you have to do there is use the code fifty Fried So these are award winning gloves. They are tremendous gloves, really soft, great leather. You just have to use the code fifty fried to buy one glove and get the
second fifty percent off. And then they also have these new products such as belts, socks, and headcovers. Check it out at redroostergolf dot com. All right, Kyle Porter, I gotta ask, what's your one big question for golf?
So I'm I'm I'm super excited that you brought me on. I think about this stuff a lot, and I you know, one of the one of the things I go to a lot, Andy is like putting things in historical context and perspective. And this is stuff that we all talk about when we're on the road together and just chopping it up and hanging out. And I think my one big question for golf right now, and I want to I want to frame it a couple of different ways, but is how do we how do we classify how
much major championship? Winning major championships matters? Right? And that's probably always been a question for people like us who are trying to contextualize this stuff and and and make it relatable for fans or for or peers or whatever. But that is that's my one big question for golf right now.
It's an interesting one because it's I think like when you look at I think there's like majors. If you look at the list of most major wins, it's pretty like you go down and it's not you know, there's a couple of people that you're like, maybe they should add more, maybe they should add less. But for the most part, I think it's pretty good. I think the one thing, I think we're definitely in an era where
it's harder to win a major than ever before. M H. I think there are you know, there's a number of factors. I think there's more talent. I think there's you know, I think the equipment. The current equipment makes it a little bit harder for the talent to separate, which might make the run of Scottie Scheffler's on even more impressive.
But I think, like my question to you would be, if you were going to make the argument that majors are a poor contextualization of a player, who who would you point to specifically.
A poor contextualization. Well, I think somebody like Adam Scott comes to mind, right, Adam Scott is like you think about somebody like John Daly who has two major wins and Adam Scott has won, and you're like, well, that an't those guys are very like Adam Scott is just
objectively a better golfer than John Daly. But if we go by majors, and this is what everybody runs to, right, it is like, oh well, and especially I think over the last two years, this has become even more heightened of like, oh, well, majors, it's the only thing that matters.
None of this other stuff even matters, And even even those of us who are trying to be nuanced about it, you're like, well, I mean yeah, kind of, but like I don't know, though Western Open should still matter, and you if you study golf history at all, they weren't the only thing that matters. It mattered to win the North South, it mattered to win all these different opens
and other countries. You know, Like, I just I get it, but I also hate that it's the case that sometimes we only run to majors to kind of judge guys careers by.
I think you bring up a couple of points that have a lot to chew on, right, I think the one of the big things I think that you hit on was the idea of scaling the PGA Tour as a business. And when you think about scaling a business, you think about making efficiencies and making things repeatable. And one of the things that the PGA Tour did to scale their business is they've made their tournaments very repeatable.
And there's a sameness to them, which is dominic, the individual charm of each one and maybe the significance of each one. And I think, like, what's what's fascinating to think about is like the majors in golf have evolved and changed over time. Right, the Western Open at one time was a major, you know, the Canadian Open was considered by many to be a major. Are we going to get to a point like is there a future where a different tournament's considered a major? I know, you know,
and and what does that look like? But I agree to certain I think like when when you've one of the issues that pro golf faces is that that the tournaments that aren't majors, as you hit on, mean less than ever before. So how do you how do you make them mean more? And I think there has to be some individuality to them for them to mean something.
Well, that's where you know, the idea of a global tour I think has some really bad business implications, but I think it has a ton of appeal if in that respect, because you're like, oh, the Australian Open has like a real identity, Like he might not have great players, but it has like a true identity, right, and something like the Scottish Open, if you take it to the right places it has it has a true identity. So I think that there are ways to kind of mold
or shape a global tour around that idea. I've got a question for you. This is one that I kind of wanted to use as a jumping off point into all this. But my question, and this is sort of meant to be provocative, but my question is, is Scottischeffer the best golfer in the world in twenty twenty four? I think absolutely right, I would agree, But he also hasn't been the best major championship.
Golfer because of Bryson in his performance.
Because Bryson has been Bryston's like like cut away from being like like winning two majors this year.
Well, this is the tricky thing too with Scotty in Bryson specifically, like these two players, the fact that we're in this era where they play on different tours, where they don't go up against each other. I I generally don't like the argument of Scotty's doing this against the
weakest PGA tour fields. And some time I don't agree generally like that because you look at the body of work and it's like, okay, so maybe one or two of these wins has gone away, and it's still uber impressive if you if you brought all the live players in, like maybe one or two he doesn't win. But I think that's like the tricky thing with just golf right now is that you're looking looking at a you know, his greatest rival, Scotty's greatest rival last year is gone
mm hmm. He's played against him twice and and that player has been a shell of what he once was those two times. Now Bryson's brought come up and become this great player, but then you know he hasn't Like the requisite thing is he hasn't won a lot on live. It's just like it's a very difficult time to determine who the best player is. And I think this was where golf was going in general, whether the tour split or not, with the with the with the events that
you know, there's only a handful. It's so hard to judge because there's only a handful of times where you see the best players in the world playing on the greatest venues. Like everybody golf is player versus course. The venue stuff is important, and we see that at the majors.
And I think that's the other aspect of this is that there are so few events that these guys all play in together, and there's then so few other events where the majority of the top guys play together on really great golf courses.
I totally agree with you about venues, but I also think that sort of makes the case for Bryson, right, Like Bryson was awesome at Pinehurst, he was really good at Gusta Nashal Intel like kind of kind of be in there. I wouldn't make I would not make the argument that Bryson's been the best golfer in the world in twenty twenty four. But I think you could if you sort of put a lot of weight on venue major like all those things now the like to combat
that you would say, well, Scotty won. The players like, that's a big deal. That's a championship course, you know, And so I don't know. I just and this is sort of why I brought it up, is because I don't really know how to think properly about all this stuff. The other thing, I put this out on Twitter the other day, but I asked people to name the five
best golfers from the last ten years. Pretty straightforward question, and it brought about a lot of debate because people value different things, right, Some people value strokes gained, some people value tournament wins, some people value major wins. You know. There's just a bunch of different directions that you can go with that. But the place that I landed is like, Okay,
you've got my five, where Brooks, DJ, Scottie, Rom and Rory. Okay, you start going down the list, Well, where's Jordan Speed. He's won thirteen times in the last ten years, including three majors, And honestly, the guy that you might replace on that list with Speed could be Rory. Even though Rory's been unequivocally like the best at golf, like getting the ball in the hole in a few strokes over the last ten years, because he doesn't have that major.
And so I just I don't know how to think so and I mean I didn't I So I just I like Rory would one hundred percent trade his last ten years for speets, even though Rory's been a lot better, you know. And so I just I think some of that stuff is just And golf's weird, right because you you almost want to be at one end of the spectrum or the other. You don't care if you miss ting cuts in a row as long as you win ten times in a row. And that that to me,
is a little different than maybe some other sports. The way that you're expected to perform.
Yeah, this is this is a lot here, there's a lot to unpackage. But I think this is like the crux of of golf. I think it's even like the crux of how we judge golf.
YEP.
I think if you're a if you're a great player. And I there's a great Tiger Woods quote about this. I wish I had a handy, but he basically said, like, all I'm trying to be is more consistent. And I think like what gets undervalued maybe and what gets winning maybe gets overvalued. And I think this is what you're saying. Majors are they overvalued? Consistency is what every great player is trying to do. How can I be at my
top level as often as possible? Yeah, And if you think about golf like these majors, maybe I'm not going to say they're random occurrences, but there's the semi random aspect of majors and bounces, and you know, maybe there's just something in your life that happens a given week, or like you just you had your A game the week two weeks before, but not then if you look at that through the lens of just pure consistency, if that's your judge, then Jordan Speak's nowhere near that list
because for the last five years he's been a shell of of what he was for the first five years of the period that you're looking at. But if you look at it just purely off of like my my highest ceiling, top accomplishments, I it's it's a it's kind of like a body of work versus like a a
who comes in every week. And I think if you compared it to like something that everybody would relate to is like do you want to do you want somebody to work for you that has like really great moments and maybe some like moments where you're like where where did they go? Or the person that comes in and maybe doesn't deliver the high highest end moments all the time, but is there all the time giving you high level performances.
It said, it's I think that probably every sport has a little bit of this, right yeah.
And I think like I even as you're saying that, I'm coaching my son's ten year old baseball team, and the kids that I want on the team are not the high ceiling low floor guys. I don't want that because I don't know what I'm getting weak to week. I want the guys that are consistently even if they're not the higher ceiling, I want them at the same
level all the time. This goes back to the Adam Scott John Daily thing, like if you there's a way to look at John Daly's resume, just his resume, like if you take his name out of it and whatever, you could say that's a that's a better resume than
Adam Scott's resume. I probably wouldn't make that argument because Adam Scott's want a lot more, but John Daly has more majors, right, but Adam Scott, Like if you just like look at the twenty five years of Adam Scott, you're like, it's not even like a conversation, and so that's where Yeah, it's so I think you're right. It is so hard because of a little bit of randomness
here and there. Think about Sergio Garcia, it's got like twenty five top tens at major's, and then Sean mckeel almost has more maj like he's like a shot away from having more majors than him.
Yeah, I mean, it's it's even like Mark o'meira, where like barco'meira has two. They came at the end of his career. They came at a technological change like inflection point in the game. And at the time before he won those two majors, he was known as king King of the bees, right where he would he'd win all the bottom tier tour events versus you know, then he wins two majors and it completely changes the way they're
thought about it. But also like you know, like Lee Janssen's a good comparison to like Lee Jansen wins two US opens in an era, a very specific era of US Open setup. How do we like he was not a prolific winner or a pro like he was a good player. I'm not trying to he was a very good player, but like he wasn't he didn't have longevity. He he was, you know, and he won majors at a time where like a specific type of setup was rewarded,
you know. I it's it's a fascinating debate, and I don't I think like I did this points system years ago, a couple of years ago, where it was like I gave I think I want to say ten points for major wins maybe, Okay, yeah, I remember think five points for like a player's win, and then like three points for what I considered a great tour event, and then one point for all other like PGA Tour, European Tour wins, and then one point for major top fives. Yeah, was
kind of how I tried to do it. I think that's there has to be a way too, because that to me rewarded consistency and longevity, right because like we're where Brooks would have a ton of points because of the maj the major wins where he got diminished on was like he didn't rack up. You know, we can week out PGA Tour wins. Yeah, and I think I think how it lives. You know, you'd have more. I think what you're describing, I'd get in trouble, I'd make live one pointers and it.
Is yeah, for sure. What you're describing, though, is is a It is like who's good at golf over a long period of time. And I think sometimes people just run to like your resume of wins and it's like, yeah, that stuff, it does matter, but it I think people do overvalue. I don't know this sounds dumb to say, but I think people have overvalue wins a little bit, you know, like but then winning is so hard, so it's like, well, maybe maybe we don't. Did you read both Simmon's Book of Basketball?
Oh yeah, right, and just.
Just the idea of like the pyramid. I think I think that would be such a fascinating thing to dive into, like it like really in detail and in depth like he did in golf history, because it's it's you know, you can you can kind of compare things maybe better in golf than any anywhere else, just because you're playing some of this, I mean the old courses. People you've
always played it in in major championship history. It's it's I think that's a really interesting thing about golf, is you you can kind of compare eras not great, but a little bit better than maybe in some other sports.
Yeah, I think it's hard. It's it's it's hard with the eras because I just can't and I'm I respect the history of the game, I can't get to a point where I believe that the Jack, the era Jack was playing in where he won eighteen major championships is is like this era, I just have a hard time buying the competition level was was Apple's apples? No, I agree, I agree with you, But I do think the pyramid idea. I think what would happen if you dove in deep would be that it would you be able to figure
out like a kind of like a coefficient for different eras. Right, what's what's golf like? Yeah?
Yeah, what's an equivalent?
And maybe it's a point seven you know factor where you just you know, it's seventy percent or something.
But yeah, there's there's a great post on Data Golf where they talk about how golf, how professional golf has gotten better, like they go back basically to I think the seventies or eighties kind of Jack Jack Nicholas's time, and they statistically show like, hey, here's how it's gotten better. The variance of scoring is getting tighter, and that means golf is getting deeper, and therefore it's more difficult to sort of separate yourself than it was fifty sixty years ago.
And I think there's a yeah, there's a there's a real argument to be made there for that.
Well, this was, uh, this was a fun chat. We're gonna have to die in three hours on that, I know. Well, uh, we got to work on the pyramid.
I might.
I was thinking the other day about rebooting the points thing because it needs an update. But it it'd be fascinating to look at like what Bryson is because Rice is a super interesting one with this, like where he would rank on that on that top players the last ten years, because he's he's sneakily won a lot.
He did he won like five times or not five, I think he won three or four times in twenty eighteen. Do you award points for YouTube victories or no YouTube challenges?
Maybe? I mean Scott great like even with his master's troubles. He's got like a great majors record.
I know he's he's he's been.
I mean, he's twenty five of the time basically top ten.
He's been in a bunch of US Opens. He was kind of he shot like forty seven in that Tory Pines US Open. On the back nine, he was like leading that one.
I thought he was going to win that one. Another big boy victory. Ridiculous to look back at old photos.
What's the over under for his major total?
Like now three and a half?
Three and a half, Okay, what do you think? Where would you go? I always go under. We talked about this after the Masters, you and I did. I think it's so easy after a guy wins to be like, oh, over for sure. But the arc of golf history is that it's just it never. I don't think guys ever win as many as it feels like they're going to after they've won a couple, and I would go under. But I but I go under on almost everybody.
I uh, after the after the after Sergio and the Masters, I think I thought he was gonna win like three more majors. I thought the floodgates were going to open and he hasn't had a top ten since.
Shane Bacon and I were literally texting about Sergio's major record this week and he missed like eleven of fifteen cuts after the after at Majors, after his master's lent.
It's like the quite the opposite of the floodgates opening.
The damn was like today shut it.
Turns a drought.
Yeah.
So all right, Kyle, thank you for this, uh something to think about. I I'm not really sure we got anywhere, but we talked about it that I.
Was not necessarily looking for answers. I just wanted to throw it out there as something for people to chew on.
All right, let's take a quick break to talk about everything in our pro shop. Meg Atkins has done a wonderful job. We've got a bunch of Fourth of July gear and there are some some red, white and blue themed merchandise, headcovers, towels, tide towels, hats, you name it. If you need a bunch of If you need gear for the summer, it's more peak summer. If you need some new golf gear, check out our pro shop pro shop dot Thefridagg dot com. I personally am a big
fan of that tie die towel. I'm gonna be stopping by our merch center this week and uh probably we'll pick one up for myself. So go to proshop dot the fried Egg dot com and check out all of our merchandise there. All right, Brian Schneider, big question? What's what's the big question for golf? That's been rattling around your brain lightly most.
You know, there's recency bias at play here. But I just got back from a week long golf bender in Maine, a very last minute trip, you know, booked a flight on Sunday night, landed in Boston Monday night, and just figured out a week's worth of golf while I was up there, which is a trip trip I've wanted to make for a long time. You know, my impression of golf in Maine that is kind of old fashioned, unspoiled, you know, just cool little courses tucked away from the
mainstream a bit. And you know that that's what I found everywhere I went. You know, I was up there for five days and got to see a lot of golf, and I was you know, there are a lot of nine hole courses in Maine, which is terrific. I love nine holes. I think it feels like the perfect amount of golf a lot of days, especially when it was
ninety five degrees up there last week. But I was surprised how many of the courses I played are still unrrigated, you know, apart from greens and teas that are a bunch of places where the fairways weren't irrigated, and you know,
you're very much at the whims of mother nature. But they played great, whether it's fescue or clover or moss or chickweed or all the other stuff you find in fairways that aren't pure, modestand of pdgrass, And you know, the game is still really fun playing on that sort of surface and bunkers that may not be raked to that day who cares. Just the simplicity of golf, and the understanding that golf doesn't necessarily get more fun just
because you've thrown a bunch of money at it. Golf and Maine was a great reminder that golf is really fun. The sport is really great even when it's really simple and very afford and very accessible and very sustainable, very responsible.
You know, what you're hitting on I think is you know what, what is important in the game of golf? Right when I think about my experiences over the last eight or nine years of this, like a lot of my favorite memories are playing golf courses that are a little bit scruffy. You feel like you're discovering the game. And there's also a a element of adventure that goes with it, right where you hit a t shot and you don't really know where what you're going to find,
you know, versus I think modern agronomy. There have been some amazing amount of amazing advancements in it, but one of the things that's gotten lost is the the element
of chance a little bit. It's a very hardline game, right, It's either this is good, this is okay, this is bad, and there's very there's there's diminishing aspects of gray in the game, and that's to me what it feels like sometimes what the game, the direction of the game is going in a broader sense is black or white, And to me, the game thrives in the gray, in the mystery of I don't know where my shot is, but
I'm really excited to see it. I don't know what this situation is going to be, but I am, I can't wait to get there. That's you know, there's almost a a feeling of adventure with that, which which makes the game more more fascinating.
Yeah, there was certainly the case with the architecture of some of the courses I saw. It's just they weren't built at a time where you know, it's kind of so called rules of golf architecture had been established, so you know, you play yourself into a corner in the you know, without walking two hundred yards way out of that corner's just to smash when over that rock out cropping over there and see what's on the other side.
There was a lot of that, which is a fun way to play golf, when you know, you get off a Rellian hole and just can't wait to get to the next team to see what weird surprises around the corner. But that, you know, that also does translate down to the golf course maintenance. You know, superintendents and the people that supply them with their tools and their grasses and their chemicals. You know, that whole industry has gotten so
good at presenting perfect turf. But if you know, if the point is to challenge players and to you know, for the best players to really separate themselves from those who aren't quite as good. Isn't the ability to play a shot well off a kind of a dodgy lie and important part of that, you know, I think the the uniform condition is that the tour players play every
week brings the field together. You know, if if they were getting three bad lies around, the guys that could hit that shot, that have that skill in their bag would be able to separate themselves even further. And I think, you know, kind of uniform conditioning both throw to golf course and then from week to week doesn't help the best players really separate themselves the way inferior kind of lesser conditioning might.
It's you know, one of the things that I've on tour, if you're going to just talk about tour golf for a second, one of the things that I've grown to love is Bermuda rough because there is like that's the seems to be the one thing where these where I noticed that the best players in the world aren't able to exactly predict the lie all the time, and you see shots go that gets squirrely, and and that's what I think the thing that you want and what golf
is like at the core. I've said this before. My friend Kevin Moore use this line once and it's always stuck with me. At the core of what golf is and what golf was when it found, when it was when it started. Here are the sticks that you use, here's the ball, and that is the challenge that you need to overcome to get there. And it was like a completely regular but like at the core, it's you know, the sticks, the ball, and then the challenge is presented
to you along the way right. And I think when you think about it from that standpoint, irregularity is so important and the idea of not really knowing what you're going to get when you hit some shots certain places.
I played Pine Valley for the first time this year, and you know, I think people take away a lot of things from Pine Valley, but one of the thing that I took away the most that I thought about is this is, you know, what many consider to be the greatest golf course in the world, and every bunker you go in is like completely different, Like some have very little sand, have quite a bit of sand, and you know there's no rakes, so you know, you get really dodgy lies, And I thought it was like a
extraordinary determiner of skill because you went into bunkers and you needed to understand what type of shot you had to hit, because if you have if there's very little sand in a bunker, you need to play a bunker shot a lot differently than if there's a lot of sand in a bunker, Like you're going up to sand valley, like a sand valley bunker shot versus a bunker shot that's kind of hard pan, Like you have to have
completely different technique. You might want to use different wedges in a golf course, like here's the number one golf course in the world by many and a golf course with unlimited budget, and here they present their bunkers unlike almost any other golf course in that stratosphere. And I've took away with that, Like why doesn't someone take that away from Pine Valley like they take away all the wrong things.
Yeah, yeah, that's That's an important part of the challenge of golf is you know, assessing your lie, whether it's in a bunker and in the fair way and the rough, assessing your lie and then playing having the skill to play the shot well regardless of that lie. You know, you mentioned the challenge that lies between green or between tea and whole, and I think we've lost a lot of diversity of that challenge, you know, the challenges that
are acceptable today. It's a much narrower band of hazards or you know, obstacles than it was one hundred years ago because things have just been so standardized, and I think something really valuable has been lost to that. But yeah, you never you know, people have a lot of feelings about Mirrfield, but you've never heard somebody say, man, that bunker shot. You know that the sand in the bunker on seventeen was so different than the bunker I was
in on five. You know, like nobody complains about that in the UK, but you might hear that American Club Different You're all the time talks about that overseas. And it's another great example. I mean, the variety in the sands across the Royal Mulvern property. You're all over the map and you just you get in, you feel it with your feet and you play the shot you think you need to play based on what you're feeling.
It's the it's the idea of fair you know, and that's what's been lost. Uh, the main trip. I'm super jealous. Honestly, for seven years I've wanted to do it. It's like a matter of getting there, you know. That's the big, the big challenge, just getting there. What what would be a couple of places you'd recommend beyond Cape Arundel, you know, I think that's the one people know the most that are accessible and available.
Yeah, for good reason. Caper Rundle was. It had been a while since I've been there, and I forgot just how wonderful that set of greens is and and and the golf course is a little more spacious than that. And the first time I went there, I just had this kind of left feeling. It was a shooting gallery and there's a little more space out there than I'd realized. It was great to be back.
There's a few back corridors where you got to have your hat on the swivel.
But there was a really cool little nine hole or I saw called Blink Bonnie, which is a great name, and of course kind of starts off well and now you know a few short par fours, and then you get to the fifth hole, which is just like this phenomenal and really sophisticated. Part three that feels like Donald Ross just popped in for a couple of days and built a hole kind of out of nowhere. All of
a sudden, it's wow, this is great. And you get to six te and you realize that the sixth t and the seventhe or sixth ferry and seventh faerry are shared. They're both playing to the same fairway and they're crossing over, so you know, if somebody's coming at you on seven, you're hitting to the same land here and then crossing
above them. And then you come back in place seven in the opposite direction, and then eight goes straight across the seventh green up the hill, and it's just a tiny piece of property that somebody pretty clever figured out how to squeeze nine holes in and they've been playing that way for one hundred years. That was a cool experience. The anytime you run into just like clever solutions to
oddball problems, that's fun to see. I saw a bunch of great places Portland Golf Club or Portland Country Club. I think it is a great old Ross course that they've got a magnificent set of greens and that's that's probably the most American golf course I saw of the trip. You know that that was well maintained and that it's a nice facility and the turf is really good, but it's a remarkable set of greens there.
From Donald Ross, I think that that term that you just hit on American style golf, that that's like kind of the crux of of what you're what you're talking about and what you discovered. And you know what your takeaway from mainez is that is that why are we bound into this American style of golf?
Yeah, ironically it's you. I was in an American state, but a lot of the golf I saw felt more like Scotland or Ireland than it did Chicago or Los Angeles.
And the benefits of that are more affordable, more accessible, Yeah, and maybe for some more fun.
Yeah.
Yeah, I didn't have any less fun because all the fairways weren't perfect Bangress certainly, you know, there are a few places where the greens could have been a little faster and certainly mown out to their edges. You know, it was cool to see places that were suffering from neglect rather than too much input. You know, it's just like everything that might have been wrong with the places I saw was easily fixed just because they haven't gotten
around to doing it. So it's neat to just need to see things that were kind of more neglected as opposed to overworked. You know, I had a few other favorites. Pop Scott Valley is a really a really beautiful piece of land that Donald Ross did eighteen holes on.
There.
There's just a bunch of great nine holers. Another one I don't even know how to pronounce it, Huawanak. I think w A W E N O c K A really neat nine holer by styles of man Click that has this, you know, it's almost a wing foot set of greens, wing foot styles set of greens. And of course all the greens are you know, little two thousand square foot circles in the middle of these six thousand square foot pads. But if you push those greens out to where you used to be, that would be a
wonderful place to play. And there's another nine holer I stumbled across that I almost don't want to share the name. I'll share with you sometime when you go if you don't tell too many people. But it's It's just a magical little place with one of the quirkiest, coolest nine hole golf courses I've seen, and a magnificent open air timber clubhouse, and everything about it is.
Just man magical.
I'm just going to kill people here. Just no.
People have to just go to Maine and go to every golf course they see until they stumble upon them they love.
And years ago I read something McDonald's sent to Rayner about how he had built some of the greatest courses from from Saint Louis to Maine. And I've always believed that there is a Rainer that nobody knows about in Maine because of that letter, and it's just probably hiding in plain sight. That's a belief that I have. I have a belief that there is this SETH. Rayner golf course in Maine that hasn't been discovered.
Go find it. I know, I'll let you know my place.
Yeah. Another one that.
I loved is Kebo Valley. Their golf goes back to I think eighteen eighty eight. The original I think six holes was laid out by Herbert Leeds and also did myopia. That's a wonderful old fashioned golf course with some really good holes. Again, the greens could be pushed out. There's a bunch of bunkers just like hidden in the trees, but beautiful, old fashioned, turn of the century golf in a really pretty place right by a Kadian national park.
You know, half the golf course is actually in the national park.
I guess available to the public too.
Looks pretty nearly all of them were nearly all of them were people, were you other people that are just really kind and happy to share their places. And I paid a bunch of green fees, but none of them are in any way exorbament And yeah, very accessible, very affordable and just fun and lobster everywhere, which is terrific to him.
All right, Brian, thanks for coming on and talking about what you've been thinking about. But enjoy. I know you're on the way to to lead out get I hope you get a lot of golf in today.
I sure will. Thanks Andy, great to catch.
Up, Roberto, Welcome on frequent podcast. Guess I got to ask you what's the big question that about golf that you've been thinking about a lot lately.
You know, I think the biggest question is and this is a question I don't have answers, you'd give me. The answers is who is going to bring the big ideas? Like, who is going to be that person that brings the next big idea that twenty thirty years from now, we are so impressed with their career and their innovation and foresight and deal making or whatever it takes to bring
it to fruition. So I've been reading the book about Dean Beaman recently and like big ideas, right, Sawgrass basically built it on his own stadium golf, Like the scene of the Travelers was incredible, and that is a Dean Beaman credit, Like it's really because he built a stadium where you could jam a few thousand people and get great visibility. I know you guys like to knock some of the TPC courses, but think about before they existed,
you couldn't see great. They weren't spectator friendly, Like that's a big idea. And then you know the deferred comp plan that you know from a player's perspective was a huge idea. And there's a big boy, right, you got PGA is looking for a new CEO. SSG is new. We don't exactly know what that's going to be or the you know enterprises. You know, you read an article like theo Epstein came in and did a whole deal. Maybe theo Epstein's like the guy that has the next
big idea in golf. I don't know. Seems like Mike wand Is wants to leave a legacy. He's got the Pinehurst deal, the club and ball regulation feels like a started with a small idea what they're doing. Who knows, maybe you know that turns into a bigger initiative. Uh live, very disruptive, not sure what the big ideas there are. And then you know, TGL a very big idea. We
don't know what that's going to become. But maybe maybe that's you know, we're like, hey, Mike mccarly ten years from now, twenty years from now, that started a whole wave of a different sort of golf. So that's my big question. Where does it come from? Who does it come from?
I agree with the Dean Beaman stuff obviously. I think like what his big idea completely changed professional golf and led to a boom in professional golf. It made professional golf what it is today. I think the issue with Dean Beeman's idea was it was the idea in the eighties, and the tour never evolved from the idea in the eighties, and that's where why the state of pro golf is what it is now. I'd ask you a question back, what do you think the last big idea in golf was?
If I'd have to think about professional.
Golf or any golf, any golf, I think.
In golf, the destination is probably the last. The destination golf is probably the last big idea. And you know, I think people tie that back to Bandon Dunes, and maybe that's right, maybe it's wrong, but that whole world is a big part of the golf ecosystem now, right, taking that three four day trip and then people scale them down to one night ers or the lunch to
lunch model. But just kind of destination golf I think was probably the last big idea that was well executed and is a huge part of golf now.
Yeah, the destination golf I think like it also was a market disruptor because up until COVID, I've always held the belief that, like the thing that nobody really realized was that, you know, the Kaisers effectively created a business that disrupted the private club model. I think like a lot of people my age were, you know, before COVID, before the the you know, the desire to have that local club came back, people were rather than joining a
local club saying you know what, I could go. You know, I don't have necessarily the time to spend weekends at the club all day anymore. You know, anymore, there's all the parenting activities, school activities, and now I will just go on two of these trips here or one of these trips yere, I'll save up. I'll play golf once a month or something, and that'll be my relationship with
golf that I think changed back with COVID. The only other idea I would throw out when you asked, When you said this question, I just started thinking about, like, what was the last big idea? Would you consider top golf one of the big ideas?
For sure? That would be a big one. Yeah, top golf, even more so than the simulator, you know, Boom, which I think is probably an outgrowth from top golf. Honestly, I think if if top golf doesn't exist, then is not as successful as it is. I'm not sure you have all the five irons, and I mean there's a dozen different brands like in the sim space now, and I think Top Golf is definitely one, and there's some other ones that are probably still tvd Ian. PGA Frisco
is a really big idea. You know that out Seth Waw. I don't know who gets credit for it, but Seth kind of oversaw the execution of it. We don't know in ten or twenty years, as they host more and more championships and you know, Dallas continues to grow. PJ Frisco could be a really big idea.
That's one.
And then I think Shotlink to give the tour some credit, like that was a big investment, and that's you know, I think we're twenty two. I think it rolled out in like two thousand and one and two thousand and two. That's created a ton of fan engagement. Like watching golf and following golf is materially different today than it was in two thousand, being able to follow just simple shot trails on your app and live scoring and then the
data underneath that. So i'd give them credit on the shot Link being a really big idea.
Yeah, it's interesting what you're these ideas, And I think like in most industries. Now big ideas are technology based, and some of them in golf are, but like destination golf not really technology based. I think top golf is like a small part of its technology, you know, it's the chip in the ball is but for the most part, it's golf with a bar right now, shot link that
is yeah, shot link, that's all technology. It'll be fascinating to see what the next one is in terms of is it really technological base like where the world is going would kind of point towards that. What would be the big technological advancement in golf, whether it's professional or whether it's recreational that changed the game, And I'm not
sure what that is. It could be. I think the continued virtual golf, the continued expansion of virtual golf is probably something that makes sense because you know, when you look at the constraints of golf, it costs and time are two of the biggest ones, and those can help mitigate that. Maybe it's that, Maybe it's the continued you know, growth of at home the ability to play some version of golf at home.
Yeah, yeah, I think Golf plus VR. You know Ryan Engel, the company he started, I mean they have impressive numbers. I mean they get a lot of usage and as VR headsets, I think the new one is going to be like three hundred dollars. It's going to be better than the last one. I think that has potential for sure. And that ties back into a simple when you mentioned affordability, right, like who's going to have the big idea on making golf affordable and you have land constraints and you have
cost constraints. You know, it might be a technology solution. But I agree with you a lot of I would you know, if you're going to bet on a business, either like being at the very very top of the market or something that everyone needs, I probably go the same way in golf, right, I would go with a very very simple human desire, which is to be with other people and travel like destination golf or drink. It's
that simple. Like TOP, there were a lot of ideas put the bar eight feet behind where you hit golf balls and don't move it like top golf is social and drinking driven and good for them and it's worked. Or I want to go on the complete opposite side, right, VR golf, TGL some things that are really going to you know, use this whole new world we're entering into
that becomes increasingly more digital. So I'd go one of those two high low you call it high low or simple versus tech, but I think it's going to be one of those two ends of the spectrum.
See you don't think it's seventy two holes of stroke play at sponsored tournaments.
Yeah, I think that's the Team Golf could be a big idea, But LIV did not bring any innovation to Team golf. Fifty four hole shotguns is not innovation. That's like what a Monday charity outing is. You know, we've talked about that, and then the team aspect their take on it was a big idea and it's materially different for the player, but it's player focused. I one hundred percent buy into these guys that are on Live that
are like, Hey, I'm having a blast. I got three guys I play practice rounds with, I practice, we travel together, Like I feel like I'm a part of something that sounds really cool. But you know how many players there are. There's forty eight players on live. Even if you did that on tour, it affects one hundred and fifty players. From a fans perspective. If you watch Live, it's it's not really team golf. They're playing individually, they add up
to score, they're not playing together. They're not so you know, TGL, there's going to be more playing alongside these like you're playing more alternate shot more like in the same group, in the same room, and there's whatever else team golf becomes. But that big idea to not not materialize the way Live did it, And maybe they evolve and do something different.
But I so many people hate on the team golf aspect, you know, like their team golf doesn't The statement because of Live is team golf doesn't work for golf, And I think that's actually inherently the false way to think about it, that version of team golf does not work for golf. And I think they're like the Olympics is an example of a huge failure of team golf. But then you have the Ryder Cup, which is arguably golf's most successful event, and what is it. It's team golf.
So I agree with this, like I think team golf is the only way that you could lift golf into a higher visibility range as a sport. How you could begin to compete with some of the big sports in terms of viewership numbers. It's team golf, the Ryder Cups. The thing that pushes that way. The issue is like, how do you get somebody to care about the teams? And I don't think the TGL necessarily, And I know you have involvement with TGL, so you might not be
able to speak to this in the current form. You know, I don't think anybody is going to be I'm a Jupiter Links fan or a La Golf Club fan, but at least they have the cities, you know, like, at least they have the potential. The problem with to me with live is like there was no basis for caring about It's very hard to be a fan of an individual golfer, right. I think that's the code to crack,
is how do you get someone to care? Like a country in the Ryder Cup or the Olympics, that's where team sports really thrives, right.
And there's probably like layers of passion or commitment, right, So like country would be first. Argentina played in Atlanta a week ago and I had a couple of friends that went and they were like, I thought it'd be like local people who liked MESSI no, Like there are Argentinian people from everywhere that just came to watch this, so that would be the top, right, and then like go down to your city. I agree with you. I
think you're not playing TGL matches in LA. But I mean from a customer and fan acquisition strategy, it's better than naming your team after a place where fifteen million people live. That's a pretty good place to start, as opposed to naming your team the majestics. Like that's a really good place to start if you add up New York, San Francisco, Atlanta, Boston, you know, LA, Like you're grabbing eighty million people. Sure left Jupiter, Yeah, the ten thousand
people that live in Jupiter. But let's say South Florida. That's a good place to start from a fan acquisition standpoint. But you know, and that's why it's a question you asked me for a question like I don't know what the big idea is. I don't know what it becomes.
It's that's where innovation and big ideas. You know, there's the Steve Balmer clip where he says the iPhone is going to be a massive failure, Like we don't know what's going to work right, And the argument against the Crushers and the Majestics is it's honestly, it's not more ridiculous than the Cowboys, the Chiefs, and the Jets. The New York Jets is a dumb name. You know what's great about it? It's New York at the beginning. It
goes back to a place. So that is really where that was the big miss on Live and the potential for future team golf.
Like you're saying, yeah, I mean I'm a big, big book I'll bet and just piss off ten million Jets fans, Well you know that. I don't think there's Bears in Chicago. They're the Chicago Bears, so that's exactly. I mean, what about the Los Angeles Lakers, a place with very few lakes, but they moved from Mindeapolis and didn't change their name. So I think, like when you unpack, like the team,
I think one thing that's important. If either of us had the next big idea, we wouldn't be we wouldn't be telling people we'd be doing building it right now. But correct the the thing about Team Golf that you know, I think, like, what's interesting about TJL is a combination of like two potential big ideas team golf and virtual golf, right,
and what virtual golf can be. I would love to see the idea if you continue to build out the identity of these teams, Like is there a potential for an in person golf at a stadium, you know, combining the stadium golf that's in the city. And I think, like when you think about there's destination golf, but oh,
I'm going to play golf like everybody. I remember, you know, one of the things one of the incentives of one of my basketball leagues I played in after college, like a you know, was that we got to go play a game at the United Center if you want. And like that's like epic, you know, like you can go play you go basketball at the United Center. That's that's cool for somebody that is into basketball. But like there's also this like idea of connecting the city to the
golf team with a stadium in the city. Oh yeah, I'm going to play at Jupiter Links and it's you know, I'm going to play at their stadium today. Like that adds a whole nother element to the team golf model, and you could start to build teams around, just like in baseball they have you know, you have a pitcher's park, so you build a team around that.
Yeah, well, you already have two things. One, the cost of technology continues to go down, right, Like, if you assume that that's true, there's potential to play some sort
of virtual indoor golf in stadiums across the country. Like, just because the first version is being built in Palm Beach doesn't mean that there's not a version five years from now when the cost comes lower, that you can spin it up in Sofi Stadium in LA and you could play team golf there, you know, in addition to Atlanta, Boston, all these places. The second is you already have a stadium in LA to play golf. You have eighty golf courses or one hundred golf you have Riviera, just pick
the tour one. You could build teams around cities and locations and golf courses, and LA is probably if you're going to pick, you know, twelve legacy tournaments to be seventy two whole strokeplay events, LA is probably one of them. So let's take that one out right. But let's say you were going to turn the rocket Mortgage Classic, which maybe struggles to find an identity and right now is not one of the elevated events. Hey, maybe that's part
of the team circuit. And there's a team that's Detroit and when you go play there, there's there's an identity and there's a home field advantage and everyone there is pulling for a certain team. And then there's also a team in h Like again, these are big ideas that someone out there is probably scheming up and who knows.
I think what's cool, you know, the early you know, some of the early articles coming out about what the SSG and the PGA Tour Enterprises is looking at is like kind of everything is on the table right whether it's one hundred fully exempt players or maybe there's a B Tour and an a tour like that doesn't feel
like it's a big idea. It feels like incremental change, But that's a start towards professional golf being very different twenty years from now, including maybe team golf, including maybe you know, stadium golf.
Who knows.
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to see it go in that direction. And it's got to go in a new direction. I know that it has to go in some sort of new direction and there has to be some sort of you know, you can't keep banging your head against the wall in the same idea.
Well, think about this, right, the market is more dynamic than like an entrenched ecosystem like professional golf. And what's happened in the market in golf. Top golf has had huge success, sim golf has had huge success. So that's basically saying, like this old model of joining a country club, we're investing six hours of my Saturday golf looks very different for a lot of people than it did ten years ago or fifteen years ago, because it's in a
capitalist market. It's like, if there's a desire out there, someone will fill it and try to make money. And that is probably just coming to professional golf a little bit slower because it's just not as fluid and dynamic as an open market. And if that's the case, then you're going to see some different versions because that's what the fan and the consumer is going to demand.
Yeah, I think you're spot on. I think you know, we've seen small tweaks to a lot of other sports and attempts to kind of modernize. Obviously, baseball has kind of been at the forefront of that, and it seems like golf is probably the next one. So Roberto, thank you so much for your time, your thoughtful response, your thoughtful question, and we'll talk.
To you soon.
All right, Andy, good chatting with.
All Right, that does it for today's podcast. Big thanks to PJ Clark for editing producing this podcast. Thank you, PJ. As a quick reminder, we are humming and club TF Garrett just penned a wonderful profile of Catanset Club. That is the latest profile up there. And yeah, we're doing profile basically every week. Other posts, design notebook, tour Guide, just a bunch of stuff in there. If you're into golf,
you're gonna like it. And if you want to support the Frida Egg, that's a great way to do it. It's one hundred and twenty dollars for the entire year and you can sign up by visiting membership dot thefridagg dot com. Big thanks, and we'll be back later this week with another episode of the podcast.