I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a brid egg.
Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday fridagg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. I am your host Andy Johnson. Today I am super excited to uh to have a couple of talks, a couple one former PGA Tour player and one PGA Tour player, both regular guests. I'm joined by Roberto Castro who now
works at cap Tech, who's conting part of TGL. Roberto was very instrumental in the launch of TGL kind of most notably the formatting and testing of the formatting of the new Indoor Golf League that I think had a pretty good Monday was a really good President's Day the I think it was probably their most successful broadcasts of the year. They had three of them, three really good matches. I think it was captivating and is starting to win over some people on the fence. So Roberto joined me.
He also has a podcast that is notable worth listening. To is the course record show dives into the business of golf. I always like to plug that when Roberto's on the podcast. And then I'm joined by PGA tour member Zach Blair, also the Tree Farm founder, and we talk about three golf courses that kind of he thinks about the most. You know, as you can imagine, tree
Farm is one of those. Well, we'll kind of keep the other two behind the curtain, so we talk with Zach one on the back half of this podcast, So little golf course architecture with Zach and a little TGL with Roberto Castro. Before we get to that, we just dropped a our Rainerman collection in the pro Shop, so if you go to the Pro Show, if you go to pro shop dot thefried egg dot com. We collaborated with swag Golf to make some headcovers, putter covers, and
t shirts with our favorite Rainerman logo. So check that out. If you're a clip TFE member, you obviously get ten percent off with your with your membership, use that code. It's been emailed to you multiple times. All right, let's get to Roberto about and talk about the TGL and their big Monday Night and how the league's gone in his eyes so far? All right, Roberto, We were supposed to record this last week and fortuitously pushed this to the current week, and now I'm excited to chat about this.
We're recording the Tuesday after the President's Day extravaganza of TGL, where I don't know if it had a moment, it felt like it kind of had a moment where where a lot of things clicked. What do you think went so well about Monday for the TGL?
You had three really close matches. I mean that's really what went well, and I think you saw the guys like the idea was always like a great blend of competitiveness and entertainment, and that came through yesterday because when you have these blowout matches, like actually credit to the players, like they tried to salvage it into like a watchable TV show and a good entertainment product. And that's the most you can get out of a twelve to one
or a nine to zero match. But yesterday you saw what it looks like when I kept telling people like, look when the last three, four or five holes, like when it's close, you're going to see a different energy. And we saw that yesterday.
To me, it also feels like maybe they're starting to learn how to play in there a little bit, like I think like something that you know, I don't think like anybody like talked about and you know, I've talked about probably TGL more than anybody on the Shotgun start, but something we just didn't talk about was like maybe these guys don't know how to play screen golf and they have to learn how to play screen golf to be like, it seems like they're starting to learn how
to chip around, like the adjustment period of like they know where to aim. JT yesterday was like I'm not going to try and cut this, I'm just going to let it draw. Yeah, you know, it feels like they're starting to also learn how to play in in the in the sofide dum.
Yeah, there's definitely an adjustment period. Some players have spent more time in here than others, but really it's like under the gun is what matters. And just like it takes a player a couple of practice rounds or a couple of years to get comfortable at a bay hill or a riviera, like it's similar like you have to learn, like what's the feel of the turf, like how to followard, does the ball go? All those things, But you're totally right.
Like my brother was texting me yesterday and he was like, dude, they are hitting one laser after another. Like the number of shots that went right at the hole yesterday were probably two x to what you saw week one and week two, So that's definitely happening.
It felt like they were reading the green better too. Yeah, that's like the other thing, like I don't know I had here, Like you know, what's like one thing that you weren't at all worried about with this and that that you realize was like a problem or there was a learning curve associated with said thing.
Yeah, probably the shorter shots like the fifty to one twenty, because it's not like a month's long learning curve. But I think all of us that were really involved in the testing had kind of gotten well past that hump of like I'm really good at a seventy yard shot in the Sofi Center, but I don't remember what those first few were. And Yeah, this is like the biggest, most sophisticated sim in the world, but it's still a
sim You can't overcome the law of simulator golf. That says, the closer you get to the whole, the more awkward and the more adjustment it takes. Right, Like one hundred and seventy five yard shot is just like a full aid iron for these guys takes five minutes, but eighty ninety yards. Like, whether you're sim or your basement sim in your basement, or whether you're playing here, it just takes time to figure out an eighty yard shot. And you definitely saw that.
I feel like that is relatable for anybody that's played sim later off, Like it's super weird when you're at a simulator trying to hit a fifty yard shot, because I think like one of the things that you like, I feel like inside one hundred so much of like the way you process the show is your eyes looking at the target totally.
And I think actually the sixty five foot screen here may may have made it harder than the sim in your basement or the sim in a five iron or an in town golf club, because talk about depth being weird, Like, get up to an Imax screen and try to hit a fifty yard shot into it. It's very strange.
Yeah, what you know, you obviously were instrumental in the testing the formatting of this league. What have you enjoyed the most about the TGL kind of coming online, coming to the world.
It's a great question. I really think the two things are the player buy in. Like the biggest thing TGL had going for it on night one is you've got twenty of the top thirty players in the world, give or take right, Like the talent you're starting with is a huge, huge asset, and they're not locked in for right, Like they need to be really invested in it and having fun with it, Like it needs to add to
their experience. These guys are making tens of millions of dollars, they could pretty much set their schedule, Like they've got a good thing going. It needs to be additive to their careers. And like these comments are genuine, like Shane Lowry saying like he's having as much fun as he's had as he can remember playing golf. Like I had an agent. I overheard an agent say that the chatter at Torrey Pines last week and the locker room is like all the players are like, man, it's a blast,
Like these matches are a ton of fun. So that's been really cool to see and then too, just the audience reception, Like I think, like Mike McCary, who founded this thing with Tiger and Rory, like he said, like some old you know, I don't have like an entertainment background, but there's like an old Hollywood saying that in TV and entertainment, it's like a parachute. Either it either opens or you die. And that night one the general reaction of the fans and the viewers was like, all right,
this is cool. I'm in, And to me, that is the biggest most exciting thing, right, It's not about the numbers. It's a it's a year one product. It's just about having customers that like give a damn about your product and or invested in it, whether you love or hate the hammer or whether you think like just having an opinion is a really big win. So it's been fun to get text every week from people that are engaged in it.
I completely echo the player buy in and I think like that's like even I think like, and you don't have to comment on this obviously, but like for me, like players that I would have been worried about being bought in, like someone like Patrick Cantley, I was not sure if he was going to be bought in, but like you saw yesterday, like he was legit. Yeah, Like I think at that at the core of it, it's like a hyper competitive gain because these guys, like none
of these guys like losing it all. Yeah, And it's kind of like I feel like when you play I've gone on trips with like guys that all play competitive golf, and when you play anything with hyper competitive athletes or people, they everybody's engaged and doesn't want to lose. And at the core of this, none of these guys want to lose.
Yeah, that, And you're totally right, Like it's kind of sidebar. But the few times I'm lucky to play like a really fancy like top ten, top one hundred club, like these places are so sophisticated and whatnot, it's always like you set up a game maybe for five dollars, it may be for anything, and I'm trying to like get into the match, even if everyone's getting their shots and everyone's just out there for a good experience, and I'm always like, are we too hump or we too like
what's the score? And nobody cares right, And this is the opposite of that, Like these guys really care. And then the team aspect. I mean, I played college golf. It's not team golf. You just go play golf and then you add up your score at the end. And the reason that this is working is, you know, the triples format, the alternate shot works. They're reading putts together and hitting shots together because the shot clock like it's
legit team golf. Every shot putt that goes in like it's high fives all around because they're all within ten feet of each other. I gave zero high fives and four years of college golf, it doesn't happen. So that's really fun for them. And you hear them say it like I love my job, but it's a grind. You've heard them say that over and over again. The PGA Tour seventy two hole stroke play like the courses are hard,
the pressure is high. This is fun. Let a teammate hit a shot, Let me pitch in where I can like, give me someone to stand with here as opposed to just every week you know, it's knives out, each man for himself.
Yeah. The I think, like I say this at all of our events, is that because like we get we have we play alternate shot at.
All of our events, the Frida Egg events.
Yeah, And I think people are like a lot of times it's like the one time in a year, the one time in five years somebody's played or sometimes the first time somebody's ever played alternate shot, and they are nervous, and I often say to them, this is the this is team golf, right, this is where you are working with someone and like if you're playing best ball, best ball,
partner best ball, like four ball. Yeah, it's just like like I've I've had partners in in four ball tournaments where we play matches against each other because that's the best way we've found to play well together. It is like we're literally are playing against each other in a match, trying to beat the other one. And like the an alternate shot, it completely switches where like it is like wait, like where do you like? You you have to think about, like where do you want?
And you hear it.
You heard it yesterday like right before I can't remember if it was Keegan or Hidecki was about to hit a three wood into a par five. You heard Rory be like left side is better, left side is better? Left side like you know, like that wouldn't happen if they're playing best ball in my opinion, like they because like he's worried about the next guy who's gonna have to hit the shot right, like, And I think that's
like the fascinating thing with alternate shot. And you know, I, if I'm gonna be completely honest, I don't know if singles is the best ender. Like to me, like if you had gone triples alternate shot the way it is where it's three person the whole way, would it have been more compelling?
Maybe?
I don't know, like we've ever done that. Part of me thinks that's the most compelling format of the game because it is that team aspect. But at the same time, like yesterday, it was also cool seeing Rory mclory and lud big Obert, who's you know, just the last two big time tournament winners square off down the stretch of a match with consequential golf. They met both make birdies. That was cool too.
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. And we messed with a bunch of that in the testing. I remember the first one we ever did you know, It's like, hey, maybe we do some best ball holes, some alternate shot holes. Maybe it's like runs of singles and then we would realize that like a player was sitting down for thirty five minutes. It's like, well, we can't have that happen, right, So it's like until you try these things, you don't know.
But the triples has been you know, it moves fast, like those first nine holes have been really really good. I think they've done a better job too, of getting the energy kind of between triples and singles, because there's a bit of that break there and a couple of the early matches I felt like in venue too, like it just went a little flat and then the singles came back, like, so I think they've maintained it a
lot better. And you know, it's just like one of many examples of learning and changing as they go.
Let's talk about that a little bit. I think, like where everybody wanted to land on, like a very formed opinion, and this has got to be one of the most challenging aspects of the league is like, like most I guess you could call this a startup, as an extraordinarily well funded startup. Most startups get to operate a little bit in obscurity for a while before like they figure out like they operate in obscurity, figure how product market fit.
And then there's like this growing popularity and then they get the microscope put on them once they are very popular. Yeah, uh you you unveiled at on ESPN Primetime, you know, Tuesday night.
What have you you know?
Yet it's still entrepreneurial, Like, what have you enjoyed most about the you know, like you played golf for a living, you have a degree from Georgia Tech though, you know, like you seem to be very interested in like the business side of the world. You have a golf podcast about the business side of golf. Like, what's been your favorite aspect of the entrepreneurial journey of this thing.
It's really been getting all people's perspectives. I mean, you nailed it. You know, I'm a little too close to it. My colleagues at Captech are probably a little too close to it. And starting week two, we started bringing clients down right, so they were either founders of companies or their executives at Fortune five hundred companies, and they kept saying, like, hold time out, like this is version one of a product.
Y'all are keep showing what could be better and what the feedback's been, but do you realize how polished this is, how put together, how sophisticated this product in the market is right now for a version one, and just getting their perspective, like you said, outside business perspective of what the first you know, a new hotel brand or a new you know, apparel line, like they've all put products out into the world, right, and getting their take on
it has been really rewarding and really interesting because like bringing a different business mind to it. Right, If you ran a public facing consumer brand, you think about it one way. If you run like a franchise business, you think about it a different way. And I mean that's the cool thing about my job now is like I get to meet all these people in different parts of businesses and and talk through this stuff and getting them to TGL and their thoughts on it has been awesome.
How do you think season two, you just brought up product version one, How do you think season two would differ? Will differ from season one in any way?
Yeah, I think you're gonna have some different holes. I would think can have a little bit of shifting of the players. One thing I think is.
Going to be really what's free agency? What's hot stove season.
It's gonna happen eventually. I think a lot of the stuff you see in other sports will happen event you know, like let's get the steady state in season one.
Uh, if my frogs need to make some frogs.
And I need to make some moves, and you know, the Doncic thing proved, any trade is on the table, right, there's no there are no sacred cows.
So if you can trade this, they might trade Rory in the middle of the night.
But but think about season two. One thing I think is cool is like a season narrative, and this could take five years, could take season two. I think it's going to start developing season one. But it's like, what's the cadence of the season in the narrative? So, like, I'm from Atlanta, I probably followed the Atlanta team closest yesterday. If they win in the afternoon, they clinch a playoff spot. Four teams make the playoffs. Two don't. So they lose
a close match. Now next week they play Boston. So if you're thinking about it, you're like, Okay, Atlanta needs to win this or they lose two in a row when they just were sitting pretty like a second ago, or does Boston go zero to four, like they're literally
like got to do something right. So I think you start to build these narratives in season two where people understand like, Okay, like part of week two NFL excitement is like if a good team like loses Week one, it's like it's do or die, right, Like if the Steelers lose the first two weeks, it's like, hey, they're not that. Week three becomes like the biggest game of
the year. And again, it'll take time, but some of that stuff I think will start to develop as the league finds it's kind of its rhythm.
That's my frogs. We were I felt like that last last game, you know, and then and then the Bay ripped our heartside of that, you know, our own three. I don't know what we're gonna do. I still think we got a chance to get it. We got to win the last two though.
Yeah, no, you're still in it for you know, four out of six making playoffs gives everyone a chance.
I know that after like Week one, there was talks of like there are a talking expansion. Is is that a feasible thing for season two? Is that a realistic. Uh chance, I think so.
I think that has been reported and it tracks. I know there's been NBA owners, NFL owners. I think there was like three NFL owners at at Week one, So I mean it's sports. You know, assets are so highly valued and coveted right now that I think, uh, you're looking at you know a lot of different owners trying and expand their portfolios, and this is a great way to do it, do you.
I think there'd be expansion beyond just the teams, an expansion of like where they might play. To me, it does seem a little silly to be just flying people back and forth from the coast in this early season run when you're playing the PGA Tour is playing on the West coast and then you're playing Monday and Tuesday nights on on the East coast.
Yeah, agreed. And the other one of the biggest wins so far has been the venue like people, I mean like Pat McAfee Week one I think was like this place is sick. I got to get in there with the boys, like you just imagine how and that keeps coming up, like everyone is like how do I get in here? We need more of these, Like what's the next one, and I can tell you, like ground up construction doesn't take months like it takes years like Sofi Center took you know, years multiple to come to life.
So I do think it's on the radar. I think West Coast definitely makes sense. But I would not be looking for another building in season two. But I think it totally makes sense. And I mean the you know, professional golf will likely played on the West Coast in the early part of the year forever would be a I rarely use that word, but it's a safe bet considering you know, it's great weather and all the reasons. It's worked for the last sixty seventy years, so it makes a lot of sense.
Would the tech ever allow for an outdoor stadium, That's something that I thought about with the West Coast.
So, I mean one of the tests we did, like I think it was the second or third test, we actually went to interlock In Country Club in Orlando and we would set up launch monitors that were tied to a simulator game full Swings, and we would then the ball would fly into a net like we had a net set up on the driving range, and then we would go chip and putt on a chipping green because we were just testing and there was not a test
center or this you know Sofi center at all. So I think so, I mean, look at look at the technology. Like anything. The first top golf was the hardest one to build, right, and then you learn and things get easier. So is there one you can spin up in uh, you know, the stadium in Vegas or at Sofi Stadium in la and then spin it back down? Like I certainly think it's possible over the long term as the technology improves.
Yeah, that's something I was I thinking. You just immediately start to think about like how this thing could evolve. But like you know, like I think one of the things the smartest things that has done is the time frame and when it's when it's on, the time of year it's on, is just like it's this really good opportunity. Like I'm most people are at home, it's dark out. Like one thought I had was, Okay, the West coast, it doesn't rain in the summer, you know, like you couldn't.
I don't think you could do it now on the West coast because you might get a freak rain out right, but you could conceivably do it on the West Coast at five pm on a on a Monday or Tuesday night in August, and you're competing against nothing, you know, and the vast majority of the country. It's gonna be dark at that time, and you're you're all of a sudden creating this a similar aspect, but it's outdoors like, and that could be a cool twist in the summer, you know.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's a good point. The indoor part really matters, though, I tell you, like, this is Florida. Like I was just outside and it was pouring rain. It's not going to affect the competition at all. I mean, the I think the saddest it's the right word, but professional golf, it was always I wasn't worried about myself
when we would have these brutal rain weeks. Like people spend a year getting ready for these things, right, People pour their hard and soul and money into whether it's the US Open or a college event, and then it just rains for three days and it's just I feel bad for everyone involved. This is a big indoor is a big asset, I mean it really is. Indoor prime time is tough to overcome. So I would vote indoor for now, but I think it's possible to do creative things as the technology improves.
With Obviously, before Monday, there was a huge rule change. You know this This shook the sports world, the greater sports world, everybody, everybody was talking about the rules, the hammer hammer rule change. I think it was a good rule change to where like people they feel like they have to use it. I think it's like a fascinating strategy piece. Now, like it's pretty clear that they don't know how to use it, like when to there. They seem to be like waiting to use the hammer, which
doubles the point total of it. If it's accepted. If it's not accepted, it's automatically the hole is over. It seems like a lot of people are using it when the holes are a effectively over. But what went into the rule change?
Yeah, I think you know, credit to TGL. They've had an open mind about everything, right, I mean, you're always balancing somebody you know, spends a lot of time and energy to put something out into the world and then feed back comes back. You know, like you have to be kind of an adult to say, Okay, maybe what I made wasn't perfect. Let's listen to the customer and let's listen to the fan, and let's consider a change.
And I mean they were really thoughtful about it, and that's something like I get to be involved in the conversations, which is fun. But I think it doesn't just go there. Like they added a like a pin camera this week. They changed the walkout, you know, Cadence like to make it quicker, get to the first shot faster, like they're making changes to improve the product constantly. But yeah, I mean the hammer, you know, three per team, Like I
can explain to someone in five seconds. They understand like a set number per team. It's like timeouts and other sports. And then one thing that happened a lot was like in venue, fans would be like throw the hammer, throw the hammer, and they didn't have it. The other team had it, so you know, you just created for some
kind of awkward situations. You know the Tiger Rory match, they were like seven thrown under the old format and that match came down to over like it really, we did this thing so much and it really could work. But I think it's a really positive change. I think it's working better.
Now.
What was your favorite format that you tested that you didn't use.
Uh god, I'm trying to think back to that first one. We just had goofy stuff. Like I just remember like one player sitting there for like thirty five minutes not hitting a shot, and it was like, I mean, because we didn't know if it was gonna be four players or three players or you know. Again, all of this was like from scratch net knew. So it was like a bunch of college ex college players and me and some some buddies that did the first one ever at
like a simulator bar. And it's definitely come a long way since then.
I've been with another buddy trying to create a golf game. Yeah, and it's so fun to test it, and we did. We did a test, you know, a couple of months ago of it, and the people that we like forced it on people, and like there were some literally like f this game. Yeah, you know, it's so fun trying something new and like you quickly realize like what works, what doesn't work when you're playing it in person.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, and some of this stuff like really takes off. I mean the birdie bet at my club at Annsleys, you need a birdie every hole during the calendar year, right, Like.
That thing is spread like four people that could conceivably do that.
Those guys play a lot of golf, but like that's really taken off.
It's so hard to burdy every hole of course in a calendar year. I know, I know.
But if you play, you know, if you're a real estate guy who plays two hundred rounds a year, it helps, definitely helps a lot. But yeah, I mean people have fun with different things. I think it's good.
Yeah, of course, I grew up playing at the One member had eagled every hole he played there for like ever. It was insane.
That's like the old was it Snead or was it who was it that like made a hole in one with like thirteen clubs of their back. It was like either Sarah's in or Sneat or whatever. He had like forty two hole in ones with thirteen clubs in the back.
All right, well, Roberto, thank you for joining us to chat TGL. You'll be locked in again tonight, but the people will be, you know. Reacting from the Jupe links New York Golf Club, I feel bad for producer PJ his New York Golf clubs and a bad spot, right, now there are maybe the ones that need to make the most off season moves.
So yeah, they may need to make some moves. You know, you can get Juan Soda though, you can probably get another. You can probably line up some sort of tour start. Sneak in the back door.
A sneaky thing is like to think about what happens TGL if Live and the Tour are back together by the end of the year, what TGL season two looks like, what players could be added in?
Yeah, interesting thought. I think like it goes back to team golf. Like these these guys are starting to like feel like they're part of a team. You know, there's an ownership group. There's like I'm not sure that uh and with a small crew like team Dynamics matter, right, I could see the current team players wanting there to hand pick uh next season's roster if there was additions to it.
You know, I'm just waiting for a GM position to open up. That's I want to move into a GM role.
Management role, Yeah, I want to.
I want to be They can't these players can't manage themselves.
Yeah, there's plenty of agents out there. I don't think you're the first person to think about that.
All right, Well, Roberto, thanks for thanks for joining and everybody should check out your podcast and uh and and we look forward to watching more tgl.
Yeah, thanks for having me on you got New York and Jupiter tonight. And then we do have a podcast episode coming up soon with Chad Mum who has his pro shop business in the new season of Full Swing, so interesting business angle on what he's trying to do over there. Smart guy. Looking forward to chatting with with Mom here pretty soon.
All right, big thanks to Roberto. As a reminder, check out that Course Record podcast, his podcast about the business side of golf if you're interested in hearing more. Before we get to Zach, let's talk about our partner, good Walk Coffee. I have had a lot of house guests this month, lots of people in and out of my world in my house. And one of the things, one of the highlights of hosting is everybody always asked me about the coffee that I'm serving because they are overwhelmed
at how good it is. And we I serve the fried egg blend of good Walk Coffee in our house and I'm astound at how many people comment about the coffee. So we have two different blends with our friends at Goodwalkcoffee. We have the fried Egg Blend, which is a medium light roast, and we have the Shotgun Start blend, which is a medium dark roast. This coffee we make in partnership with with Goodwalk and you know, I get mine delivered a monthly. I get two bags a month when
I'm hosting people. It's kind of a bummer. I'm out of coffee right now. I could go on to goodwalkot Cooffee dot com and order more, but the subscription is so nice because I get just shipped and I almost never run out unless we're hosting people. So if you want to get your goodwalkcoffee, go to Goodwalkcoffee dot com, slash fried Egg and use the promo code fried egg
to save twenty percent on your entire order. If you sign up for one of those subscriptions, which I really recommend, you'll save thirty percent on your first order and ten percent on all future shipments. That's Goodwalkcoffee dot com, slash Friday. Thanks all right, Zach Blair, regular of the show. It's great to have you back on It's been a while since we caught up Talk Golf, courses. I wanted to do that, but you know, I gotta say, I feel old right now. You're this is your tenth season on
the PGA Tour. Yeah, and I just was thinking back. This is like a memory, vivid early memory of the origins of what I do. It was Sunday night. It was the second PGA Tour event I ever wrote about, Like we started the Friday newsletter in December of twenty fifteen,
So it's Kapalua. And then the next Sunday, I've got work Monday morning, I'm a Central time I'm up working, working late on the Frida Egg and I'm watching Zach Blair duke it out with Fabian Gomez at at the Sony and you hit that shot and you said, oh, that's so good, right? Was that what you said? Is there a three wood? On eighteen? I remember, like I remember exactly where I was. I was at my my friend's apartment, and I can't believe it was ten years It was ten years ago.
Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. I I also remember where I was at that you know.
That time, probably remember like everything about that shot.
Yeah, you know, I remember the putt for sure, like foot out. I was like Oh that's that's money, you know, buried it. This is awesome, let's go. But you know it was a fun week for sure.
What you're you're ten on tour?
What what do you like?
What do you think about going into a season? You're obviously you've played a couple of weeks, but like, what's the what are the thoughts that like? How is it different than twenty sixteen?
You know, finishing finishing one twenty six is a you know, different, different spot obviously. You know every week is kind of trying to figure out if you're going to get in and you know, be an alternate or have to go. So especially the first couple of months of the season, it's obviously a little different. But you know, been out there a long time, kind of know most of the courses.
Excited to get some opportunities hopefully this year. And uh it's still fun though, you know, still golf still the job. Got to go play good for four rounds and yeah, it's awesome. I mean it's a pretty good gig.
Mister one twenty six two times two times of crazy.
Yeah, tough scene.
Let's uh, let's talk about golf courses. I gave you a little Simon. This is kind of a recurring segment, I guess on this podcast, as recurring as anything is. You know, where we talk to people about golf courses they think about the most. So I asked you, what are what are the three golf courses that you are find yourself thinking about the most, And uh, let's start with with number one or number three, whichever one you want to go.
Yeah, I mean, I think this is definitely something that changes, you know, based on what's going on and you know, trips coming up or where you're going to be. But I tried to take most of the you know, most of that out of it because for example, you know, when we were building the tree farm, you know, I was going over to England and you know, I was thinking about all the heathland golf courses for a really
long time. So those, you know, those definitely popped into my mind for you know, which courses do I think about the most? It? I think for me, I've tried to maybe generalize it a little more of just like in the last ten years, like you know, what are what are my favorites or what are what are my
courses I'm thinking about the most? And I think the Tree Farm, you know, obviously a clear number one, just building it and you know, kind of being that part of it, you know, kind of think about it every day for the last like five years plus, So that's kind of that's the number one.
Am I going one?
One through three? Are we talking about them?
Or what's the Well, let's let's talk about it. Let's unpack here. Number one. I expected this. I expected Tree Farm to be number one, and I think anybody that that didn't expect it to be number one, you know, I think we would have to have to see why
you expected something else to be number one. But with Tree Farm obviously, like I think like the whole process of it is you know, as you said, five years effectively like you bought you bought the property for Tree Farm, like basically the week the world shut down the during COVID, it was like the first week of COVID that you
went down and purchased the property. So like you think about like you're looking for land before then, and now like this is you know this fall, you just finished the lodging at Tree Farm, so it's like finally a fully operational club.
Yep.
And we've talked over the years a lot about the construction of Tree Farm. What are you thinking about now with Tree Farm? Now that like all the big the big things are done.
Uh yeah, so long process, like you kind of mentioned, I think now that those big things are in place, the golf course has kind of you know, been around for a couple of years. For me, I kind of always saw the golf course for sure, as you know that there would be some tweaks and changes and you know it would evolve over time. I felt like kind of the best golf courses in the world always, you know, have that in common. Basically, they don't just roll it
out and say all right, we got it perfect. You know, let's let's just go with it forever. So you know, I'm always kind of constantly thinking about what are certain things that need to be tweaked or changed. And I know it's a fine line, you know, you don't want to get caught up, you know, like some other places that just are making changes to make changes. But I'm always looking at it like how could this be better? Not just for how I'm playing the golf course, but
you know, for how everybody else is playing it. So I think just kind of continuing to to tweak certain things, you know, continue to add add stuff and work on the drainage or work on, you know, anything. The whole team's kind of, you know, always thinking about those sorts of things, and I think it will kind of continue to evolve over the next, you know, forever.
I guess you've got a membership, you have people, and I think the one thing that's common with any membership is everybody's got takes, everybody's got opinions, everybody's got feedback. How do you how do you like process the feedback? Like what do you you know, because like I think everybody will tell you what they think about it like that. I think that's the thing that's fascinating about golf is like everybody everybody's entitled an opinion. Everybody's opinion is has
valid reasoning behind it. But like you're the one at the end of the day that's got to process and this feedback, and like, what how do you kind of think about taking people's feedback?
For me, I'm I'm always kind of maybe overreaching for feedback. I kind of ask everybody what they think. I typically honestly kind of look at the t sheet each day and see who's out there and you know, reach out and see what the day was like and what they liked and disliked, and kind of looking for some constructive criticism, you know. But I've really kind of taken most of the feedback the last handful of years, just because the course has been playable and open since you know, at
least twenty twenty three. And you know, I feel like there's like common things that people you know, piggyback on and start having takes on, and you know, some of them are valid and some of them aren't. And again I try to kind of evaluate which ones make sense and which ones I see maybe overlapping with what other people are kind of talking about, and maybe think of
some strategies to make adjustments. But overall, I mean, the goal the place was to be really fun, you know, for everybody that went out and played, not just really good golfers. So again, it's kind of a fine line of hearing the stuff and figuring out if if you should actually explore those those things, because obviously not everyone's
an expert, right everybody. You could just have somebody that is, you know, pretty new to the golf architecture world or just new to golf in general that is like, oh, you know that you know this screen is a little too extreme or too much, you know, but you might have some other people that are like, oh, that's my favorite green out there. So it's always kind of, uh, you know, a fine line.
I think the thing that I think about a lot too is like how much your opinion can change. Your thoughts change with repeated plays, different wins, different days, like different places that you end up.
Like.
I think like I had a you know, I had such a different opinion of stream song black the second time I played it then the first time I played it. First time I played it, I played outstanding, I had the ball on the string, and the second time I
played it it was complete opposite. I hit it just all over the place and was found myself hitting like recovery shots left and right, and I thought like, wow, this is really fun because like I'm having to really think about like these shots versus the first time I didn't really think about anything, you know, And I think, like, that's that's just generally an interesting thing. But like people are most app I would say, to give you feedback after their first time around.
Yeah, And I think a lot of people, you know, might not get the chance to play it more than once that you might be hearing feedback from or they might you know, only play it once a year, and you know, it might take a really long time for them to get kind of that repeat look at the place.
And that is kind of like one of the dangerous things about just opinion with golf, or you know, there's tons of other things that kind of fall into that category, but like with golf, for sure, I feel like you really need like several looks at a golf course before you can really you know, from different teas and seeing different pins, and like you mentioned, being on different spots
of a golf hole can just completely change it. You might hit the perfect shot, be in the perfect spot and think like, oh, this is kind of a nothing hole, and then the next day you play it and you find yourself in the wrong spot and you're like, oh, wow, it's super advantageous to be over where I was yesterday to that spot and I didn't even know that. So
it is kind of one of the dangerous things. You know, I've learned that over the last ten fifteen years that it's hard to give like a very expert opinion about a place until you've really kind of you know, seen it in depth a few times.
Being an active salt consider of feedback, what's been the feedback that you have been kind of most proud of, Like when you think about the I mean, it is a herculean effort to build a golf course, a just let alone a golf course, an entire golf facility. So what's been kind of like the piece of feedback that's kind of brought you the most joy and happiness with everything that you've gone through to build the golf course.
I think on the golf course side, it's just people having fun. Again, I mentioned that earlier, like that that was the entire goal. You know, we didn't try and build the championship golf course that was going to host you know, professional events or anything like that. We just wanted a place where you could go out and make some birdies and have fun and you know, get some different looks and just be exciting kind of you know for for four hours, you know, to go mess around
and have fun. So that on the golf side, and then I mean.
Just hold on though, you say, like go out like you got to hit some big time golf shots out there, Like yeah, you can make birdies, but like I mean, you think about four, you got to like stand up and you got to hit a shot. Eight you got to hit a hit a damn good golf shot, you know twice. I think like, there's as it is friendly, but it is by no means like here you go here, I'm just hand.
Yeah, I think again, kind of just you know, beating this point up. But you know, the goal was always like, hey, if I go play really good, execute and do the right things, I'm gonna get some chances. And that's what it is out there, you know, pretty friendly off the tee. It can play somewhat long if you play like the tree Monster, t's all the way back, but you know not everyone obviously goes back there, so it's not overly
long from like the te's that most people play. You know, a couple of the par fives are reachable if you hit some good shots. There's a couple of shortsh par fours, and you obviously got a couple of drivable par fours. So there's plenty of opportunities if you do the right stuff. But yes, there are a handful of kind of meaty
golf holes. You know, threes really long, fours really long, eight's really long, twelve's really long, and you know fifteen can be pretty long too, and it is probably you know, one of the harder holes out there. So yeah, it's got that variance of where you're making a lot of birdies, but you can also make a lot of bogies. I think, just with the nature of being fairly generous off the tee and having so much short grass around the greens
and not a lot of hazards in play. You know, there's maybe not like a ton of doubles just in play unless you really screw something up, either around the greens or off the tee. But again, that was kind of like contributing into the fun factor of you know, who wants to go get beat up? You know when they go play golf, especially on a golf course. They might only see you know.
Elsair Mackenzie's principles, you know about a bad golf balls one where you can lose your golf ball. It's hard to lose golf ball out there.
Yeah, you know, the the natives starting to you know, get a little dice here in spots, but overall, yeah, like you hear a lot of groups kind of say Hey, we you know, it was really cool. We didn't lose golf ball like for the entire group for the two day trip, which you know it was it was it was meant to be like that.
I mean, I think back to like one of my least favorite rounds of golf of my lifetime, and this was pre this is when I was living in the city. I was playing with one of my best friends, which like should not be the barrier of least favorite rounds, but we're playing Harborside, which is a golf factor. It was a slow round, you know, this is mid twenties, and my buddy at the time had like a little case of the driver yips, and literally we look for golf balls like all day long.
Yeah, there's kind of nothing, nothing worse than that. I truly like, go into the round, uh and just say, hey, I don't expect you to look for mine. I'm not looking for yours. Just that's just it. Yeah, that's a house rule, you know for casual golf.
It should you know, if there's nothing worse that when you're on like the right side of the fairway and you look over and it's like somebody that you don't know, well, is in like the left hay, and you're like, you know what, I gotta walk over there and act like I'm going to look for this golf ball. Otherwise this guy's going to think I'm an asshole.
You got to get that out of the way. On the first t you just hey, you know you're on your own today. No events, not trying to be rude, but you know, I don't expect your help. You're not going to get mine.
Take us behind the curtain here. I got to ask. You know, most people don't get the opportunity to build a golf course of their own. I think everybody dreams of this. What's the most annoying thing about building a golf course of your own? And it could be wide range is something that falls in the bucket of looking for somebody else's golf ball In terms of annoyance.
I think on the operational side, it's like the weather, you know, every day, I'm just like, I feel so bad when the weather's bad. For people going on a trip, you know, you're like shit, you know when it's yours and you're again, I'm always kind of like reaching out to people seeing you know, what their trips like, or
you know, what they liked or disliked. So it's just brutal kind of like always watching the weather in New Holland and being like, oh man, it's like really shitty today, you know, than trying to like get ahead of it as sorry the weather you know, stuck today. Hopefully you guys still had fun, but you know, that's definitely one of them. And then just just building it, you know, just kind of like the costs associated with it, you know, just kind of gets more and more expensive the you know,
the bigger and better you're trying to build it. So I would love to go back like one hundred years and just you know, have some some really sick land to just kind of fall in your lap and you know, oh wow, my family owns you know, four hundred acres like on the ocean, Like let's go build a golf course there.
Yeah, that would be that would be nice. I think. You know, you got a great piece of land though, And that's I think one of the neat things about about the place, like most neat, most stunning is just the land and how it was able to be itself with how you built the golf course. Let's get to two. What's what's the number two on your list.
You know you talked about it yesterday. I feel like you've got me, You've got me scoped out pretty good. I'm probably gonna go Pine Valley. You know. It's one
of my favorite golf courses in the world. Like I kind of mentioned yesterday, I just feel like it's a bunch of unique looks throughout the round, really cool greens, and at least from the back teas, you feel so good about playing a good round of golf out there that it's kind of one that for me has always kind of been you know, that that bar of if you can get anywhere around that, like you're doing something right.
I think the thing that's interesting about Pine Valley is outside of baby like a couple shots out there, no hole do you stand on, and you are like this is this is n like nothing is like outwardly hard about it, like overwhelmingly hard outside of maybe a couple shots.
But when you put together the entirety of it and the like I think, like if you think about golf, like there are golf shots that very if you said, if you associated a a ten stress level with shots to a zero stress level, I feel like Pine Valley just like hovers at six for eighteen holes like between like five and eight, Like nothing is like overwhelming ten out of this world hard shot, but there is also no shot that you can ever take your attention away from.
And and it's that that kind of makes it such a diff course because once you're out of position, like big number is kind of what you said about Tree Farm, where like double like it feels like once you're out of position there you are like, Okay, how do I make bogie?
Sometimes yeah, yeah, totally, I think, you know, again, not as generous off the tea as the Tree Farm, but fairly generous, especially once you kind of I think visually off the tee. There's a lot of shots where you're like, oh, this is you know, a tough t shot. Then you kind of get up there and you look around and look back and you're like, oh gosh, there's there's way more room up here than you think. But the the differentiator,
I guess is like those shots into the green. If and when you do miss, you find yourself in like really challenging spots that aren't that kind of guaranteed. Oh well, I'm gonna get it on the green. You know, you see a lot of really bad things happen out of the bunkers, and you know from missus, it's honestly kind of like the exact opposite of the tree farm. Around the greens, you know, like not a lot of short grass,
a lot of stuff like very repelle. You know, like balls bouncing into really really bad spots and you know, not guaranteed you're gonna get a good lie or anything like that. So but I do agree, like maybe outside of the t shot on five, you know, the par three, there's not like a ton of wow, I have to hit a perfect shot like there you gotta hit you got to hit a really really good shot with a really long club. But you know, other than that, greens
are pretty big, fair ways are pretty big. But you know, you just got to kind of execute and hopefully, you know, you're at least u able to get the ball in the short grass off the tea most of the day, because if you don't, that's where you get into like some you know, really bad stuff the.
Greens, I think, like, so my experience there this year was it was first time playing it, and I took a red eye in and I was playing like the next morning and my my clubs didn't make it so and it was blown like twenty five and and like so I'm playing Reynolds clubs and it's really quimby. And what I like, what I felt, I just didn't feel like I had very much control of the golf ball.
And I hit it pretty well, but like what I saw was like, Okay, I'm hitting greens, but I'm like never in the right spot, Like I didn't know exactly how far the ball was going to go because I just like, you know, you're and and once you lose that exactly, like I think, like the thing about the lag putting out there is so hard and if you get above flags, and this is the case, I think, like, you know, I don't want this isn't meant to be like a shot at the PGA Tour, but I guess
it is. But like when you get to the place where you have a lot of slope in greens and slope around cups, the precision in knowing where like when you're playing I'd never played it, I don't know where I want to miss shots, And the first time around it, it just felt like even when I hit good shots, I'm getting up there and I'm like, oh, this is probably the worst spot I could be hitting this eighteen foot putt from, you know, and like the slope around
the greens just makes it the greens, like I don't think like necessarily like everybody always talks about to the greens there, but the greens as a whole are so good because they reinforce everything back.
Yeah. I've always been a fan of putting out there, and to your point, kind of a lot of a lot of tilt. You know, a lot of them have that right amount of tilt where you got to kind of marry the line and the speed and you got to be in the right spot to be able to be aggressive. And you know, you'll get in certain holes or certain spots where wow, I hit a really good shot and you might be twelve feet just past it above the hole and you're kind of like, all right,
well now I'm playing defense a little bit. So yeah, you're you're.
Either deciding like am I going to try and make this or am I just going to try and cozy this up? Yeah, And they're a completely different like, and you know it's such a hard spot to be in.
Yeah, Yeah, to your point, you know, you don't get a ton of those golf courses out on the PGA Tour.
You know, you're getting a lot more kind of like modern stuff with a lot more little internal stuff around the greens that they can get really really fast, but you get a lot of putts that are inside the hole, and you know that sort of thing from from close range where I mean, the tournament's not there this week, but like you know, when it's at Riviera you kind of see that a little more on display, where you get a lot of little five six seven footers that
are like not inside the hole, and uh, it definitely makes golf a lot more difficult when when that's the case.
Yes, I mean that, I think that's what we all love about the major championships. Yeah, is that's like I think I can't think of a great golf course that doesn't have a set of greens that like when you're five six feet away, you're like regularly outside the hole.
Yeah. Yeah, greens are important. Greens are important.
Is there a particular hole that maybe at Pine Valley that maybe wasn't your favorite your first times around but has grown into one of your favorites.
I think fourteen, the part three down the hill. They're always kind of rifies me. They're always kind of messing around with stuff out there, you know, And I do think they've tweaked kind of the back teees a little bit and lowered it any bit. You know, you get a windy day, your ball is just in the air so long from those back tees that it's just kind of like, I hope I get the right gust. I hope I hit it good but not too good and go long. So that was one maybe the first time
I saw it. And this kind of goes back to the point about seeing a place one time. I probably left left that day going like, ah, yeah, like there's a lot of really good holes, Like I really don't like fourteen. I think it's too much. And then you know, seeing it a handful more times and different conditions, and like I said, they changed kind of some stuff here and there, I've kind of grown to be like, oh, it's a pretty it's a pretty cool hole, and I've liked it a lot more since.
I had like the worst first experience at fourteen you could have. I absolutely flushed an iron and I was like, oh, that might go in and then just curse splash just right in the drink and I'm like, yeah, what just have and next time played it, you know, over the top, just dumped it into the left bunker, made sure it wasn't short. May I think I've made double both ways?
Yeah? Yeah, that that again, that's kind of the balls just in the air so long on that whole. You get a tough wind and it's just you kind of like I hope it kind of is going through the wind but not too much, you know. So Yeah, it's a hard, hard shot.
Yeah, it's uh, it's the one that it gets you thinking it and like it. It's honestly like a hole. It's like a perfect example of a hole. That is it. The more the more your golf brain works, the harder the hole is because like, no matter what in the back of your head, you're one. Because you can't really
feel the wind. It's kind of got like a little twelve at Augusta where like you can't really feel the wind and you're just like you can never get yourself fully one, one hundred percent committed to hit the shot because you're thinking, like, is this really what's happening up there?
Yeah, you're just really kind of trusting what you've felt. Maybe you're all you're changing directions on that course so much too, you know, so it's not like you have this well for the last you know, five holes, it's been this way, so let's make sure you know, we trust that. So it's hard. I think overall the course is just you get so many unique looks. I don't think there's a ton of shots you get up to and you're like, oh wow, this reminds me a lot of this hole here, or let alone like this hole
anywhere else. You know, it's a lot of unique looks inside of the golf course. And then I think if you you know, it's obviously got the big scale, cool land, and if you sat there and talked to ten people after your round, they all might have different holes they
think are the best hole out there. And anytime you get that sort of range where it's like, you know a lot of places you go and there like oh this is the best hole, this is my favorite hole there, you could honestly just sit there and talk with everyone the whole day about what they think is the best
and why. And I've just always really enjoyed it. And you know, we kind of touched on it yesterday a little bit but it also seems like it could continue to get better the more they kind of, you know, want to lean maybe out of the fasio stuff and back into the you know, older stuff that you see pictures of and everything like that, and you know, we'll see what happens over time. I guess it's always the number one course in America though, right, yeah, yeah.
I think it's like number one course in America is such a like it's like in what regard, right, like the place I always say this is like the place I don't think like I could ever be happier than when I'm walking around Cyprus Point on a golf course.
Yeah, like yeah, it's something.
About like the whole the walk around it, like how you it's it feels like a hike because you get up into the cypress trees on fire or the motto, you get up into like the sand dunes on five and six, and you're in that forest and then you come out and I just like I think, like I don't think I could get like I could shoot one hundred and not be frustrated about being there, you know, whereas like at Pine Valley, like I could see myself getting very frustrated and not being as happy, but like,
what is is it the number one course of what the number one course from a pure golf architecture standpoint, And what's in the ground? What is the ground?
Like this is the hard thing with rating courses, right yeah, yeah, Again, I think it's all pretty subjective obviously, but it's got a lot of good everything outside of an ocean, right, And it's got good land, some really cool architecture, it's got really cool greens, and.
It does it, like you said, not turned up to a ten on every single shot, but like you're never going below like a five or a six, right, You're kind of always in that like, oh this is really cool. Oh this is really cool. This is really cool, you know. And obviously you get a little more of that eye candy out there, and you you definitely have some kind of like wow looks, you know, when you go to two or you go to five or six anything like that.
You kind of get that throughout the golf course, throughout the entire round. So I just think it has so much like better than average stuff the whole time that it kind of adds up to being pretty awesome some.
Of some of the whole parts, right, Yeah, and it's got and it's got like super dramat moments. I think that's the thing that it's gotten. Like no, yeah, it just keeps your attention throughout. Yeah, all right, what is uh what's number three?
You? Uh you kind of touched on it Cyprus. I think, uh, I went back and forth between like that and National and uh. I think just the setting of how dramatic it is and different you know, different spots of the course kind of like you talked about that. It was just kind of like, man, if you had one last round anywhere, you know, I'm probably I'm probably seeing if I can get a tea time out there, you know, go get it on a good day.
That's I mean, that's the thing is. It's just there's there's a line that James Duncan used in a video that he like narrated about North Berwick for us and he's like, I don't know if it's the best or it's the good.
It just is.
And like I think about that a lot when I'm out there. Is like like I have like the hardest time separating like is this the greatest golf course? Like it's it's actually kind of like the course like an I the architecture is outstanding, but is the golf course. For me, that like the architecture means like the least because of just the natural setting and like Pebble down the road. Like, don't get me wrong, like Pebble is outstanding setting, but it's kind of like the same the
whole time. And to me, like, yeah, the diversity of the of the natural areas that you play along, whether it's like whether you're back in the forest on four, five and six, or whether you're up in the high dunes on eight and nine, or you're right on the ocean, it is just like I, I.
Just wouldn't feel like the way you go, the way you go in and out of them too, is kind of like bumps it up a little bit too. It's not like, hey, oh we're going you know here. You you see something, you go into something, you get out of it, you go back in, you know, and then obviously you kind of at one point get to like the most dramatic place anywhere, you know, in like that fifteen sixteen spot where you're just like, how could it
get any better than this? You know, to just be out here maybe you know, I don't know, I don't know if fifteen is a great hole. I don't know if sixteen is a great hole. But the setting of them, and you know how much fun and how much variety you get with the winds and what's going on. You know, one's short, one's long. It's just like that like thirty minute stretch. You're just kind of like you can't help but just be like this is this is incredible, Like this is pretty awesome.
I think you made a great point there about how you get in and out of them, out of the sections. The other aspect of that is you're never in one section for very long.
Yeah.
Yeah, again, like that that dipping in and out of those kind of like different envelopes of the land and how kind of like they all blend together and go together but feel very different. You know, when you get into four and get into you know that spot like deep into kind of like the dense woods and then fall down out of them, but then kind of like get introduced into like the sandy dunes and you're there for a second, then you pop back into the woods.
I mean, it's pretty pretty crazy. I think that's like, uh, I think a very unique property in itself and and just like to rout it that way, to to not just be like, oh, we're gonna like you know, go get into the dunes and then like spend nine holes
on the ocean or whatever, because that's your point. At Pebble, you're kind of just always on the cliff incredible, right, Like you could be out on those holes and just be like, man, how does it get better than five and six and seven and eight and nine and ten? But it, you know, generally plus or minus is kind of like the same thing. Big ocean, big cliffs. Great, but you're never like in and out and ups and downs as much as you are at Cyprus.
That's the longer you spend time in one place. And I think this might be it the less like it's
a diminishing value, right, the more normal it gets. Yeah, And maybe that's the magic of Cypress's kind of routing, and how how abbreviated the time periods are in different segment and how there are these like transition areas like I'm thinking about like kind of like whole six that plays up out of the forest down into the dunes, Like they're like kind of like these blends and then you know, uh, ten kind of plays in between, like you never are in a defined setting for really more
than three holes there.
And they're big, like big swings, you know what I mean, Like like you go way down the hill on six, and you go way up the hill on ten, and you got like you know, you get the dog leg right into the dunes on eight, and then kind of like down the hill on nine and fourteen you're kind of going up the hill. You know. It's just I think they're like big big swings. Where Pebble or those other places, you're kind of again kind of plus or minus like same ish elevations, you know, within like ten
or twenty feet where at Cyprus. You know, they're like huge, huge swings.
I think. You know, in a course that we it's similar to Pine Valley, right, there's a lot of variety in the forms and there's a lot of big stuff.
Yeah, yeah, that I mean the scales, the scales, right, you know, it's it's pretty dial.
All right, last question here before we get out of here, what's the what's the course course or courses or that your most want to see in twenty five.
I mean, I would love to get down to Terry Edie and uh, you know, play some golf in New Zealand. Haven't been down there, and it, you know, feels like a pretty special spot from you know, the stuff that I've seen and heard do it.
I think I had to just turned out, I had to turn down an invite there the other day. It killed me. It honestly gutted my soul.
Yeah, I think it's uh, it's just so far away,
you know what I mean. And it's kind of like you've got kids, you know, it's just it's hard to it's hard to say, hey, I'm just gonna like pop down there on a trip without at least you could maybe like tie it to work and say, hey, I'm going to go, you know, do some profile on this course, and I really need to see it where you know, there's it's not like there's a golf tournament necessarily down there that I'm I'm looking to go tack it on, but I think I definitely want to see that at
some point. And then Stateside, I think Prairie Dunes is one that you know, I've kind of just never been able to get out there, and bally Neil is probably another one that just haven't made it work. You know, it's only one stayed over. I can't believe I've never been there, but you know, every time I've seemingly tried to, you know, loop it into a trip or something, it's it's kind of fallen through.
So these are they're they're both not like next door like. They both take a little bit of effort. Both of the Yeah, it's I think, you know. My issue with Terry Edie at this point is if I bring up New Zealand, my wife's kind of like, yeah, when are we going?
Yeah, maybe we should just take the whole the bowl squads down in a few weeks.
Then I started to add up the numbers on the cost and I'm like, uh, I don't know if this is the year.
I don't think we can go.
I don't think we can go.
I don't know if this is a weed trip here.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I would love to go play like the Ohs open and kind of do that and just pop over after and just make it a little more Okay, I'm down in Australia for a couple of weeks golfing and then hit it on the way home or some you know, just something that makes it a little more. I mean, I think you can spend you know, weeks in New Zealand, right, I mean there's there's good golf. Uh, you know, there's a ton of good golf there that you can go see.
So we figure out he had kicked around Christmas, just doing the whole whole Christmas there. We were very close to pulling the trigger and we did not. It was it was it was sad when you know, I had some some things come up and it just was like the wrong wrong time. But we were like this close to doing it, and uh, it was very sad that we didn't.
You know, yeah, it looks it looks cool. You know, I've kind of I've just heard so much good stuff about it. Obviously, Kai was was down there, you know,
shaping a lot of it. Uh, you know, and I worked with him for a couple of years on the tree farm, and you know, it was kind of always one of those things that it always kind of gets brought up with, oh well we did this down there, and I thought this was really cool how this turned out down there, and uh, you know, seen seen like a good spot to check out.
I just look. Twenty twenty five Australian Open is expected to remain on the Melbourne, sam Belt. So you know it has not been announced yet, but you know that's it seems like a good time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did that, you know, my first year on tour. So maybe it's a ten year thing.
It's a ten year that's that's how you pitch it. Pitch it on the home front, a ten year anniversary, all right, Zach, I appreciate the time. Everybody can follow you on Instagram, lively Instagram account, and thanks for chatting golf courses with us.
Yeah, of course, thank you guys for having me.
All right, big thanks to Zach Blair for joining. Also big thanks to PJ. Clark for and producing this podcast. We will be back next week with another episode, and thank you guys for listening.