Takeaways from the 2023 Ryder Cup

In the back half of the episode, I'll talk to Benkoley of sportinglife dot Com about all things Team Europe. But first up is Joseph Lamanna, a contributor to Friday Golf, and Joseph and I are going to perform a kind of post mortal for Team USA that's coming up right after this break. This episode of the Friday Golf Podcast is brought to you by Gooder. Gooder makes twenty five dollars active sunglasses that don't slip, don't bounce, and are

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like that. There's plenty to get into on the American side there, But why don't we start with the players, just to make it clear that the players are accountable here, that this doesn't all rest on Zach Johnson, who were the biggest disappointments in your mind at this Ryder Cup for Team USA.

There were some massive disappointments. I think Shordan Speith, Justin, Thomas Cammore, Kawa, Xander Schoffley, Wyndham Clark. A number of

players just didn't step up and perform. Some of that is a function of where they were positioned, though, and so when we look at something like strokes gained, for example, because that's something that it's one of the only things that people really can look at during the Ryder Cup to evaluate how players performed, which I appreciate that we're doing that instead of like number of birdies or something,

but Ryder Cup strokes gained data is really noisy. A lot of players don't even make it to certain holes, so it's just it's kind of hard to only look at that. And it's also a function of the positions you were put in. If you're in foursomes, if you're in an alternate shot and you're a bad approach player and you were hitting a bunch of long iron approach shots, Your strokeskin isn't going to look very good. So I think the best way is to actually evaluate the pairings.

Click through the shots, see what the shots people actually hit on the leader board, and that's an effective way of evaluating who played well and who did not, just reducing it down to strokes.

in that match. Brooks was really bad and the other player, I mean, you got to call out Patrick Cantley, who played maybe the three most memorable holes of golf in twenty twenty three. The way that Patrick Cantley closed out that Saturday four balls match where he was partnered with Wyndham Clark to take down Fitzpatrick and Rory is some of the best golf that I saw all year. So on the American side, that would be a high level overview of who played well.

place yet. We'll find out more in the coming weeks, but I think that there's enough smoke there to say that there's a fire, But his performance, especially on Saturday and Sunday, would suggest that for him at least some of this noise around not being part of the team at least didn't affect his play. And so that's that's pretty interesting, all right. I can tell that you want to get into the captain's decisions, Zach Johnson. Really it became clear as the week unfolded that the US players

weren't being put in their optimal positions to play. Well, why don't we start with the captain's picks, right, because that's the first set of like really major strategic captain's decisions, and then we can get to the pairings. But in retrospect, I know that a lot of this is Monday morning quarterbacking. You have made sure to comment on a lot of

this stuff ahead of time. I don't do as much of that because, like, I don't think I'm an expert on this kind of stuff, and I always just assume that the people making these decisions no more than I do, and so I can look back and say, hey, this was wrong, this was right, But I don't really feel

expert enough to comment beforehand. You have, and you made some pretty good calls ahead of time, So both in retrospect and when the picks were made, what some of your thinking was, how would you evaluate those captain's picks?

Cameron Young shouldn't have been on this team. This golf course demanded great driving and long iron play, and that is what Cameron Young does to a t. There is no world where you leave Cameron Young off this team. And it's impossible to say, hey, he for sure would have played well. But he's the type of player that could have gone out there and got four points for Team USA. I mean, I'm not saying that he would have for sure. Obviously I can't say that. But Cameron

Young absolutely should have been on this team. There's no doubt about it.

hard about that one. Sam Burns actually played a little better, especially the back half of this the final two days than I might have expected him to. He's a great player, but Cam Young, no doubt I'm taking him over Sam Burns. The Justin Thomas conversation is just much more like I would have taken Cam Young over Justin Thomas and said

that at the time. I do think there's something to the team chemistry and Justin Thomas bringing some energy, bringing some flair to the event, getting guys engaged, and there's value to that. But I mean, the performance was really bad, as I would have expected, And a huge story here is that with both Sam Burns and Justin Thomas, those are players who make a lot of their money with a wedge in their hand, and this was not a golf course where you're going to be hitting wedge very often.

So that's kind of a transition a little bit into the pairing stuff.

lot of long irons. You were also gonna have three of the part threes, So good long iron player off the odd holes, you're gonna have driver in your hand a lot on the even number holes, good driver needs to tee off there. And when you start to look at this United States team and say, well, who are the truly great drivers of the golf ball, it's a pretty interesting conversation and another important thing to comment on the force because we're specifically talking about the alternate shot,

the Forsom's format. That is a format where you need to have your best golfers on the course. When they hit a bad shot, you're almost certainly gonna lose the hole. Versus in four balls in the best ball format, you can get away with hitting a lot of bad shots and you see that. All due respect to Bobby McIntyre, that's what the Europeans did. They hit him in the best ball format, as you should. So to take a step back and say, well, who are the great drivers

on the American team? For example, two of the best drivers are Xander Schoffley and Patrick Cantlay. But we just took it for granted that they're gonna pair together, and there's no even there's not even a conversation of hey, you know what, maybe we should split these two up and ensure that we have good drivers on all of

these teams. So that's a natural place to talk about the Scotty Scheffler Sam Burns pairing, where Scotty Scheffler is one of the great drivers of the golf ball on Team USA, but you wanted him hitting all these important approach shots. Therefore they had him go off the odd numbered holes. Well, that leaves Sam Burns a bad driver of the golf not bad, but he's not one of the top drivers. He can spray it. He's going off

the even number holes. That's a bad pairing that they're gonna have issues all day Xander and Patrick Cantlay, Right, they didn't even get a point, and we stacked two of the best drivers of the team on two of the best drivers on the team on this for some's pairing, and then we had on Saturday they played Jordan Speith and Justin Thomas, neither of whom is a good driver of the golf ball right now, and they're both shaky with their long irons. That was a disastrous pairing. So

these pieces all fit together. And when you see the way Europe did it, for example with the Victor Hovelin love theg a Oberg pairing, it was just it was much more well done. And we got to have a conversation about the role that Buddy ball played because the sam Brns Scheffler pairing and then insisting on can't Land Shoffley being paired together, it imposes these artificial constraints and you want to have maximum flexibility.

starts to get hairy. I would focus way more on what are the shots that are going to be hit and who are the players best equipped to hit those shots, which is I think a really important point about the chemistry and the makeup and the spirit of Team USA versus Team Europe. I believe firmly that the Team Europe says, hey, just give me a player that's going to be complimentary with my skill set and will go make it happen. And I've heard plenty of anecdotes about that. Hendrik Stenson

had said that when he was playing. Justin came out this week and said, you know, playing a good pairing doesn't necessarily mean playing with your best friend or whatever. He said. I think Team Europe just takes that approach more in general versus Team USA. I think the players are dictating a little bit more of that, and I would not be scared to break up pairings that have done well in the past, and I don't think Team Europe's scared to do that either.

didn't really know each other that well before we heard that we might be paired up in this Ryder Cup and we might have to get familiar with each other. I think that that's a great example of how Team Europe isn't as guided by these traditional pairings, buddy ball, whatever you want to call it. There just aren't these pairs that you can't break up. It's almost like Team USA is imposing certain constraints on itself, saying that we can make whatever decision we want, except we can never

split up Skeethan Thomas. We can never split up Burns and Scheffler, we can never split up Xander, and can't lay. We just can't do that. But anything else we can do, well, you've already really limited your decision making. And that doesn't mean that you make these last minute decisions in a hectic state of panic, and that you put two guys

together who didn't expect to be together. That's not clearly what happened with Team Europe, but there as a plan for the European team, and that plan doesn't appear to have been guided by what the pre existing friendships were, and that seems to be the core of the difference when it comes to the pairings philosophy here, Ram Manhattan, what do those guys have to do with each other? I mean, the personalities might might seem to kind of be similar to each other in some ways, but I

don't think those guys were buddies. But they I guess Dodo Molinari probably saw something in their games for this course, where he was like, yeah, these guys should go out.

Scotty Scheffler, those skill sets no longer interact. A there aren't a lot of wedges, but when there are, he's going to hit some wedges close that Scotty Scheffler is notoriously struggling with his putter and he's not going to cash them in. Also, in the best ball format, you let Sam Burns, you let those skill sets interact. Right on the first hole when he played four balls on Saturday to short par four, it's like four hundred and seven yards. He hit a three foot off the tee,

hit a wedge in close, made the putt. Those skill sets interacted in the best ball format. You're not allowing them to interact in the alternate shot format. And that is where it's just another example of why Sam Burns, if he's only going to play two sessions, put them put him in the four balls both times. He's probably gonna be one of the weaker links on Team USA,

and his skill sets better suited for it. Do that, right, And if you pair them with Scotti Scheffler, who's not an amazing he's a good wedge player, but not an amazing putter, you're probably gonna make birdies on different holes. That's the way to pair players. Instead, they went with him in foursoms, which didn't make any sense. Does that make sense, Garrett?

hundred yards, then that's that's maybe not as fruitful. But that said, Burns did end up playing pretty well. We don't know what Cameron Young would have done. What would Cameron Young have done if paired with Scotti Shefflin. Maybe that wouldn't be the best pairing because neither of those guys can can really put right now. But whatever I mean, this course, I think that you've said this before. This course didn't exactly prioritize putting, so there were other possibilities

on the board for Team USA. Let's go back to the JT pick, though, because that's the interesting hinge for me here, because when you're talking about Cameron Young, the guy he replaces on this team is Sam Burns, not JT. So I think that once you start talking about whether JT should have been on this team or not, you start considering players like Keegan Bradley, Russell Henley. Who am I forgetting Bryce Bryson. Yeah right, Okay, well, then let's

talk talk about it from that. That's the most interesting way to talk about this is JT versus Bryson. That's the This is the juiciest. This might not be the right way to discuss it, but it's the juiciest way to discuss it. We can talk about Bryson and JT together. How do you make the decision to put Bryson on this team given that he's been playing so much of his golf on a tour where the information that we're getting about what guys are doing competitively is a little

bit it's new at the very least. I don't know if it's unreliable, But when you compare it to what we get the information that we get about how guys are playing on the PGA Tour, it's just got to be a little bit less credible. So how do you make the decision to put Bryson on this team over a guy like JT.

it's difficult. There's not crossover in those golfers, especially at the bottom of the live roster. Playing a bunch of other events, you don't have a whole lot to go off of besides things like major championship performances, and Bryson wasn't exactly stellar in those. He struggled at the Open Championship, was decent at the US Open, finished T. Twenty the PGA Championship.

you just take out the team chemistry altogether. Yeah, probably, probably, But it's really hard to, in my opinion, have full confidence in somebody with a really limited data set. Like just for example, Bryson's driver he has sprayed over the last two to three years. How much is he spraying it right now on live? I don't know. The data

is not good enough to even evaluate that. Right You can't see how straight somebody's hitting the ball, so that that's Bryson's I don't know if I want to use the word fault, but it's a trade off Bryson made by joining that tour.

of that may be true. I can't really evaluate that. What I do think I know is that Justin Thomas has established himself as one of the best players of his generation over the course of his career, and everybody on the US team is aware of that. And so if he were not picked by Zach Johnson, and especially if his spot appeared to be taken by Bryson Deshambo, there would have been some discontent and some ill feeling

about that within the team. Not because the guys like JT better, though that may be very much the truth, but because they think of him as one of the greatest players of his generation and they want the best players on their team. Even if JT has had a miserable year. I still believe that guys like Max Homer, Patrick Cantley, I still think they think of JT in the same way that they did in twenty twenty two when JT won a Major. And so I think that that is part of the logic of that pick that's

not necessarily backed by valid recent data. That is convincing to me. You know this is you had you had to pick them in that spot, because it just would have been it would have been weird to the team if if you hadn't.

up a lot of wedges in your hand. Outside of that, there's a lot of missed cuts and some really ugly data, right, some almost last place in a couple majors, US Open and the Open Championship were really bad. Finished T. Sixty five at the PGA, missed cuts at the three cut at three M Memorial. I mean, there's a lot of bad data in there. None of the players on the US team are following the data like that, right, It's not like Max Home and Patrick Kntley are going through

that rationale. So I agree with you that if they didn't pick him, it probably would have taken some air out of the room a little bit, and no one's thinking about the fact that the fortinet's a wedge contest, so I think they did kind of have to pick them, and even saying that I wouldn't have, but I'm not the captain of Team USA, and I don't even know how to think about some of the team chemistry stuff because I've never been in one of those rooms.

it's about. I think they all want to be in the best position to win. I think they don't want to be embarrassed. But they have a certain set of beliefs about which players around them are going to give them that best chance to win. And some of that is maybe based on personal feelings that they're not entirely aware of, and so you would have needed a leader who was really convincing and had a lot of credibility on the team to explain why JT is being left

home in this situation. And I'm not sure that Zach Johnson was that guy this time. He just didn't appear to be. And that leads us to some of these team team dynamics, some of the intangible, some of the stuff that's really hard to discuss from the outside. You're somebody who's deep in the data and who is really conversant in that kind of stuff. You know, in your own thinking about the Ryder Cup, how often do you try to even bring in some of this soft science stuff,

sports psychology, sports performance things like that. How do you bring that into your thinking from the outside evaluating a Ryder Cup performance? Can you even do that?

clear that team chemistry can be important. There are also other instances, like in professional basketball, where some guys don't like each other in the locker room and winning seems to take care of everything. And I think I come a little bit from the mindset of give players a chance to let their performance lead like let because if you didn't have Justin Thomas on this team, I think there's an argument of, hey, who are the leaders in

that team room? And that might be more of an indictment of some of the characters in that team room than it is a valid point, like who are the galvanizers if you remove Justin Thomas? And what I would say to that is, well, you wouldn't have said Patrick Cantley going into this Ryder Cup and he ended up being one because his clubs did a lot of the talking.

There were some of the other storylines too, But I think it's unfair to penalize Cam Young for potentially a perceived lack of leadership or your gift Justin Thomas that leadership credit, but you're not giving it to Cameron Young.

What if Cameron Young would have played and balled out and guys would have rallied around him, like it's hard for me to team chemistry is tough because just giving Justin Thomas that check in his giving him a tally for that, but not giving it to some other guys who haven't even had a chance to assert that doesn't

necessarily feel one hundred percent fair to me. The only other thing I'll say on that, and because I'm being long winded on this answer, is that I think an important part of the intangibles, which maybe this shouldn't be considered an intangible, is rest and rest slash preparation. And I do believe that the layoff the United States had leading into this Ryder Cup was a disadvantage. It's a little bit difficult to troubleshoot say, hey, more guys should

have showed up for the Fortnet. No, I don't think that's the answer. I don't think showing up in NAPA would have been an unbelievable, you know, a way to prepare for this event. But even like rest, Garrett, in the fact that both John Rahm and Scotti Scheffler rested on Saturday afternoon, that was a signal they were going to be teeing off first in the singles match. These teams are thoughtful about that kind of stuff and energy

levels is something that should be considered. So the team chemistry and energy level stuff is really interesting, and that's not strokes gain stuff.

But maybe there's not a whole lot of people who can kind of sit in the middle and do both. Dodo Molinari can do both. He is every thing at once. He is a widely respected professional golfer who speaks golfer and also somebody who is deep, deep in the data and understands it. And so I think that's a major advantage for the European side here somebody who brings together the hard and soft sciences a bit. And then you know,

when it comes to team chemistry, it's so funny. There's so many different versions of teams that function well psychologically and collectively. And it's not just the teams who all like each other. It's really not. I mean, it's not that simple. I think that the common thread between teams that perform well together, and this is just speaking from my own, you know, very very low level experience coaching and being an athlete, it's belief in the other guys.

It's trust that they're great and that they're going to do their best for you. And yeah, some of that can create bonds of loyalty and friendship, but really it doesn't require that. And that's why you get certain teams that you know, guys don't like each other very much, but they believe in each other. They believe that the other guy is a great player and is going to

come through in big moments. Shaq and Kobe ended up blowing up, and maybe some of the interpersonal issues were a contributing factor to that, but the fact is that for a time they were a great, great team without liking each other at all. And that's because both of those players believed that the other player was one of the best and that was a fact that they couldn't ignore and that provided enough, you know, trust and team

chemistry to get things done. And so you know, when it comes to the US team, I think that people maybe overstate the role that buddiness plays. What they've really got to have is other players that they really believe in. They've got to look for the best players for this particular course, and they've got a captain. They've got to have a captain who can articulate to players why certain decisions are being made, Why is this guy, why is

this pairing going to be the best for me? And if you can make those arguments, then you're going to create much better team chemistry.

So I totally agree with you. I think education is a big piece here where the captain needs to understand this stuff, needs to explain to the players, like I want some of your input on potentially who you think are good players, who would be good fits for the team room and stuff. Ultimately, I'm making the call and I'll tell you why I'm making the call, and it's going to be data driven and we're gonna get the

course fit stuff right. And you need a unique skill set to be able to do both of those things, to pick the right players, to get buy in from the team, but to not let the buy in become a buddy system to where you roll out Jordan Speeth and Justin Thomas and Forsomes, and that is the balance that needs to be struck. And I agree with you that not just Molinari, who was excellent, but I think Louke Donald deserves an enormous amount of credit for the way that they navigated that entire equation.

exceptionally well. I know that a lot of the aftermath will be about the United States and their various failings, and a lot of that is valid, but I hope that there's still plenty of time and space to talk about how well Europe did, because I really don't think they missed a beat. I mean, I know, Captaincy is such that you win and everything was right, and you lose and everything was wrong, But I don't think that's a long way from the truth here. So yeah, a

fabulous victory for Europe. And I kind of, like Luke Donald said when he was asked if he would do it again in two years, I don't really care about Beth Page right now. We're just enjoying what was a fantastic victory and one that was in no doubt really from a very early stage.

this Ryder Cup. I think almost everyone acknowledged that they were three of the four best golfers in the world, maybe the three best golfers in the world based on kind of recent form and complete game, because the other player in that mix might be Scotty Scheffler, who has sort of openly struggled with putting lately, whereas these three players have been more or less firing on all cylinders

for this year of twenty twenty three. Tell me about their performances, their collective performance at this Ryder Cup and what it meant to the European team.

that European side and the problems they had. I mean, it's easy to forget, but Tommy Fleetwood was not quite at his best. Matt Fitzpatrick was not the player he is now, tyrrel hatton the same and we had to rely on Victor without any choice. But this time it

was clearly he was ready for it. And the way he played in the singles in particular, I mean obviously guiding Ludwig through those Foursom's matches on both mornings and the record win on Saturday was fantastic, but the way he went out and looked at simply a better player than Klinmarakara. I think was a really nice sort of symbol of where those two players have gone over the last couple of years and their respective directions. John is

just I mean, he just loves it, doesn't they. I think he's got that wonderful balance of I mean, we all hear him speak and he's so well grounded, but he's got a real chip on his shoulder as well. And I actually thought watching him in the press conference last night, like you could see he was quietly fuming that no one was asking him questions and all the questions were going to Rory. He's sitting there thinking that I'm the best player in this team.

have had to answer for. But as for Rwal as well, I mean you probably know Garrett that I'm a bit of a romantic and a massive Rory fanboy, so to say this week was just how I'd have wanted it to go, It's probably an understatement, even down to what happened on Saturday night and having that extra sort of twist to it. But he's a player who cares deeply

about this competition. We know that he cares about the legacy he leaves behind, and it was his best ride a Cup and I was a little bit surprised he played all five matches, and I think a lot of people will be surprised that it was him and not John who'd played fewer holes as well and probably played

better over those first three sessions. So I think that probably tells you something about McDonald actually, and probably he spent a lot of time thinking about how best to get Rory firing, and actually saying to him after Whistling Straights that no, you are going to play five. You are still my guy was another little thing that Donald got absolutely right.

going on. And Live has a lot to do with that, because all of a sudden, Sergio Garcia is not around, Ian Poultter's not around, Lee Westwood's not around, and they were all very much factors at Whistling Straits and kind of now give the impression that that Whistling Straits Ryder Cup was kind of the last gasp of a particular era of the European Ryder Cup. And now we have a new looking team, but one holdover from the previous

era is Justin Rose. And he had quite a week, sort of a surprising week in a lot of ways, although he's shown, you know, that he can play well on a given weekend, as he clearly did at Pebble Beach fairly recently, you know, he hasn't been a super consistent factor in the world's biggest tournaments, but he really showed up this week. What are some of your takeaways about the Justin Rose Ryder Cup of twenty twenty three.

he remained eligible and not been selected. And actually all those problems were taken away from Luke Donald and in a way it was the US who had to answer those questions because their players were eligible and they had, particularly Bryson de Chamber obviously, the way he played the last couple of months, someone sort of banging loudly on the door. So it just shows you how much can

change in two years. As for Justin Rose, I think one of my very favorite things in sport in general, it's seeing guys answer questions and remind you of their class in any sport at any level really, but Rose in particularly, you know, he's got a fabulous Rider Cup record, he's a major champion of world number one, He's done most things in this game. He should really be a Master's champion as well. Obviously, he really has achieved most

things in this game. His hold massive putts at big moments, and I think his character is one that relishes that role he was given. And again we come back to Luke Donald and Okay, it might seem obvious what would you do with Justin Rose and to put him in that role where he can guide someone through, very much as Graham McDowell did with Victor de Buisson and Glenn

Eagles back in twenty fourteen. That was a task given to Rose and it was an important task in a way that he was never going to be able to play five matches. It never would have been appropriate for him to do that. And I think he was rewarded for doing that so well by going out quite early on Sunday in the singles, whereas I would have thought he might have been one of the last guys on

the course. And actually, although he lost his singles match, to a brilliant Patrick Cantlay and the pots he hold late in that match to keep it going were phenomenal, and I think you know, ultimately he's been vindicated. And look, this is not it doesn't have to be a big you know, it's not right or wrong. Everybody makes their own choices in life. But his choice was very, very clear.

He could give up on his Ryder Cup future and join Live and make a heck of a lot of money and take one big payday, as others have chosen to do, or he could go the other direction. And that other direction came with no guarantees. When he made that decision, he was not in the world's top fifty, he was not on the Ryder Cup radar. So to go and make that decision and commit to that idea and then achieve it, it's spectacular. And you know, Rose is a player. I've made plenty of jokes in the past.

You know, we all know that the logo even when he shouldn't be wearing a logo and all the rest of it. But I think you know, as we've seen with the Rose Lady series in the UK that came about during the pandemic and gave female golfers a platform and a place to go and earn some money. I think his heart is in the right place and it certainly it was focused on getting back in his righter cup side, and I fallen him very very happy that it worked out so well.

years old and a relative veteran. Those three players that I just mentioned a little more green needed to be guided through this Ryder Cup by people like Justin Rose a bit more, but perhaps future stalwarts of the team. How would you evaluate their performance this week?

team two years ago and he didn't make it. He really committed to what he and his team felt was the best path into this team, ie via the European points list this year because statistically he really wasn't one of the best twelve, but he qualified and therefore his place is owned earned Rather clearly, Rose played a massive part. I mean, Bob really didn't play well on Friday. He hadn't been playing well in practice. He'd had a poor weekend at or a poor week at the French Open.

But I do think he's got something intangible about him. I think it's something we saw in the Scottish Open when he was so unfortunate to lose to Rory, and I'm not at all surprised that he could. He could do it on his own against Wyndham Clark and that was a fantastic performance. You know, who knows what the future holds for him. He's going to have to take his game up another level I think to still be in this team in two years. But he might be

able to do that. And he has so much talent and flair and a real center purpose and I have a lot of time for him, and I'm sure a lot of people have. And Nikola was probably the disappointment. You know, he wasn't necessarily his best, he did still hold some clutch puts. I'd love to know what Zander said to him as they did the sort of guard of honor thing afterwards, because he seemed to have a really good word in his ear, and I'm sure there

were some really positive things said there. Unless they were talking about money, who knows. And as for Ludwig, I suppose for Ludwig, I quite like that it was a he was really disappointed when he came off the course having lost to Brooks Kepka, who obviously in singles golf, is yet to lose in the right It was a tough drawer for Luodviig in some respects although Brooks had played poorly. I think it's kind of nice that there's been a slight sense that he's back down to earth, because, okay,

he's gone into the Ryder Cup record books. Four or five months after turning professional, he's already won on the DP World Tour. This week, he's going to be the favorite for a PGA Tour event everything has come pretty easily, but over the last few weeks he's obviously surrendered. The leader Wentworth and after a perfect start to the Ryder Cup, he ended feeling that, Okay, this isn't all going to come easily to me, and that will probably be a good thing in the long run for him. Rory said

he'd be part of fifteen or twenty Ryder Cups. I'm not sure it'll quite be that many.

to say. And he did fight hard in that match, So yeah, look, the story of the European team really was that the big three did what they needed to do and the weaker three did more than some people expected, I think, and that all lads up to a win.

seems like still Europe has the lead in that category. So, starting with Luke Donald, you mentioned one decision that could have potentially come back to bite him in not playing John Rahm in all five sessions. And so if Europe happened to lose this Ryder Cup, if a couple of matches swung the other way, maybe we would be questioning more of his decisions. But what do you think is the core of what Donald did really well?

was already good at. And he took that all the way to the very top of the sport. And it's you know, clearly that was always going to be the color of his captaincy to invest in that idea, to have a particularly close bond with Dodo, who obviously is a very sharp mind and someone who is helping members of this European team and help Matt Fitzpatrick become a major champion. I think you can see a real distinction in the way he talks about data and the way

Zack Johnson talks about data. And although Luke Donald, at his heart will also know that data is one part of a bigger picture, Zach Johnson almost seemed to be saying that as an excuse really to use the data to confirm what he already wants to do. When the data disagreed with him, I suspect Zak Johnson moved away from it, whereas lou Donald would use it to look again. So that was first and foremost. The second thing, I mean first and foremost. I suppose you know the character

of the man. He's very, very popular, He's always been popular, and he speaks well. I thought he's opening ceremony speech, although basically a waste of time, I thought he did that expertly. It was really touching. But I also think that he understands or understood what he had to do with his team, which you know, things are changing in Europe. We had a guy on the team who was raised in Georgia, but he made them a team and the Hero Cup in January was a small part of that.

Sepstraker coming over to play in that certainly will have helped, even down to those details of getting these guys in the three balls that went with together all twelve members of that team playing that wentworth playing in groups with people they're going to be working with. It's an attention to detail, but also an understanding that you can't win or ride a cup just on numbers and on course set up and on moving a T box. You've got to have a shared purpose, right, and he conjured that

and it looks it's quite easy to do that. With Europeans, I suppose, but you've got new faces coming in every time, and to get them all in that same mindset is no small achievement. And whether he takes it again in two years or not, I don't know. I do think what's happened with Live gives Europe the excuse to go and try something they wouldn't previously have done. We don't

have that line of succession, I suppose. But the other thing I would say is that I think Europe and Donald's a bad example of this because he was a world number one, but Europe is probably that bit more willing to look beyond achievement on the course than the United States are when it comes to a captain, and Paul mcginley's a great example of that. Thomas Bjorn even these are not golfers who reached the very very top of the sport. And when people say, well, I don't

see where the next European captain is. We've got no McDow, we've got no polter Well, Doda Molinary, Francesco Molinary, Nicholas Colsarts and Colesarts is a great example because to a lot of casual golf fans, who is Nicholas col Starts. Really they sort of vaguely remember him playing well for a bit of the Ryder Cup in twenty twelve. They might remember he used to be a bit of a party boy. But Luke Donald's I think the words are used yesterday were He's one of the best people I've

ever met. And it's those characters that Europe is invested in, whereas the United States seem to feel that you are defined by what you achieved as a player and only through that can you go on to achieve great things as a captain. And I think we've proven that to be completely the wrong way to think about it.

It used to be the case that, especially on the US side, you needed to have a major or two to even be considered, and obviously that has nothing to do with how effective you are as a captain that's been proven over and over. Paul McGinley is one of the best captains in the history of the Ryder Cup, and he perhaps has the thinnest resume of any Ryder Cup captain. If you look at other sports, the great coaches are not necessarily great players. They're often players, and

they often got the best out of their ability. But Greg Popovich, Bill Belichick, I mean, you know, these are not necessarily the cream of the crop when it comes to players, whereas a lot of really great players didn't end up being effective coaches. And so we should know, we should know that there is no correspondence really between super elite playing ability and super elite coaching or captaining ability.

But it seems like, of course Europe is learning that lesson a little quicker than the US is, as Europe has learned these lessons traditionally more quickly when it comes to organization and leadership than the US side has. Now you mentioned that there's this possibility that Luke Donald could be captain again at Bethpage in twenty twenty five. Do you think he should be should they start to move toward more of a term structure when it comes to captains as opposed to a one off bit of service.

would be wise to do it again. But in terms of Europe and having the best chance to succeed at beth Page, which will be a phenomenally difficult thing to do, I think it selecting Donald nice and early would give us the best chance of doing that. So obviously, as a European fan, I would like to see that happen, But the real message from me is that if it doesn't, then actually, although there, as I said, there may not be obvious options waiting in the wings, there are plenty

of good ones. And look, Luke might do what Thomas Bjorn has done and make a really handy vice captain for somebody else. So I think it's probably quite possible that it is offered to him again, as I say, I wouldn't be sertain he'll take it.

Of course, Luke Donald was a replacement captain for for Henrik Stenson and so he didn't even you know, have that full period of time where he was working, which in a way makes what he accomplished here even even more impressive. Now, you know, one particular thing that you can point to between Europe and the US when it comes to leadership. One thing that we know about, right we can spect about what happened in the team room or what Dodo Molinari said to Luke about particular data.

We don't know all of those details ourselves from the outside, but one thing that we can point to as a difference between the two sides is how the players approached the lead up to this Ryder Cup how the team approached the lead up. The US players really were left to make the decision on their own whether they were going to play at the Fortnet Championship or at the BMWPGA Championship or do really any competitive preparation whatsoever for

the Ryder Cup. The US team did visit Marco Simone, Xanderschoffle and Patrick Cantley were not along for that trip, and they didn't have the excuse that Jordan Spieth had that they were having a kid or something like that. They just weren't there because they wanted to do something else. But at least there was that for the US. Europe did some like that themselves, and they also all played at the BMWPGA Championship, every last one of them, and

they played well, and so there was a distinct. You know, there is a distinct difference between how these teams prepared for this Cup. Do you think that that's a major thing that we should remember about why the outcome happened as it happened.

one of those was the standout player on the US side. Now, again that's neat and it doesn't tell the full story, but effectively, this Ryder Cup was lost in the very first session when Europe were absolutlutely ready to go and the United States weren't. And I think part of that has to the question has to be asked, why did they not play? And I hope it's as seriously behind the scenes, I understand why in a press conference afterwards you wouldn't you know, you wouldn't go down that road.

And I think the US press conference was really good actually and showed it togetherness that a lot of people did not necessarily believe was there. But ultimately, in the aftermath, there are a number of things you have to reflect on and okay, great, if you got the team spirit right, well, that almost makes it harder to understand why did these twelve world class golfers not perform if there was no problems in the in the in the changing rooms, the golf course, for me, is not a very good excuse.

Europe will have maximized every possible advantage in terms of t box and routing even but it's not a sufficient excuse because Marco Simoni is not Paris National. So then we come back to why did they Were these guys ready to perform? And the answer was clearly no, And I think a good a good explanation is that they didn't play. And the thing that really sums it up for me, it's really not about how much we can gauge or whether we are fully invested in the belief

that they played poorly because they hadn't played. But it's the idea that any of them could turn up there and think that that's okay. That's what I can't get my head around. Rory McElroy alluded to it. He said, I cannot imagine turning up a Ryder Cup after five weeks off, and that seems so obvious. I mean, who can imagine it? It seems it seems remarkable to me. And the fact is they do not do this before majors and yeah, Okay, the majors happen in the season.

This is postseason for the United States players. I get that, but there are places you can play golf. Whether the DP World Tour wanted to issue twelve invites to let them warm up at Wentworth, I don't know. Maybe they'd have played hardball with that, but the four Tonet Championship was an option, and a good option. It's competitive golf, and you hear these guys talk about it all the time.

You know. You go back and read the transcripts for the Houston Open and back in the day when it used to be the week before the Masters, and you'll hear guys saying, yeah, just wanted to get scorecard in my hand, make sure I'm ready for next week, whether it's there, whether it's the Texas Open, whether it's the Scottish Open, the week before the Open Championship now, whether it's the John Deere Classic. As Zach Johnson and Jordan Speed know all too well, help them prepare to win

the Open. Playing golf is what you need to do to be sharp, and they would not sacrifice that for themselves. So the fact that they would sacrifice it for the Ryder Cup I find very hard to believe or understand, and I think it speaks to a simple difference at the core of this, which is that the Europeans cared just that little bit more. I really think that's true.

and get the whole team doing the same thing, and went about this in a kind of dictatorial way where he was suppressing the individual differences between players and not allowing them to be different or to do what they do well as individual athletes. And so a big part of what Davis Love and company have been working on is figuring out how to let players be themselves at

these Ryder Cups. But of course, on the European side, it seems like, this is not as much of a conflict that you can ask all of them to show up at the BMWPGA Championship and that's not some big offensive thing to their individuality or to who they are as players, or to their own expertise about what they need to prepare for the Ryder Cup. They just do it, and they're there as a team, and some of them play better than others. But this is what they're doing.

It doesn't seem like the US team is capable of doing that, because at every turn there are players who are like, oh, well, that's not how I like to do it. Even down to the type of water that they like to drink, the leaders of the US team are concerned with that. One guy likes Fiji water and another guy likes smart water, I guess, and that's a big deal and all the stuff. You know, it seems convincing when you think in terms of all of these guys are experts at their own games, and what they

do well is be individual golfers. That's how they perform, and so it kind of makes sense to try to provide a structure where they can do that. But the problem is that doesn't always work, and when you have an issue like how should we prepare competitively for the Ryder Cup given that there is this substantial gap between

the Tour Championship and the Ryder Cup. Maybe there is some kind of team wide decision making, some collective action that is necessary in that case where you say, Okay, Xander, Patrick, you may not want to do this, but this is what we're doing as a team, and we're going to ask you to fit your individual personality and planning into this larger plan. Can you find a way to do that? Can you find a way to adjust just a little

bit to do something as a team. It seems like the European players can do that, and that the American players don't think that they have to do that, or in fact, they think that that hurts them absolutely.

going to be there as a team. Patrick Cantley having had neck ache and not slept very well the night before is a hideously weak excuse. But the fact that he's looking for that excuse, I think is what tells us that there's a problem there. And I think it's all the more jarring this year when your thirteenth man was probably Keegan Bradley, someone who would do anything to

be on that team, and I do feel sorry for Keegan. Actually, if you have got guys and the stories come out today about Xander Chofley and a dispute over over some financial aspects of a deal that you know may or may not have kept them off the team had things gone differently, it's hard not to feel that, you know, you've got guys who actually want to be there, And that's what it really comes down to, the people who want to be there versus the people who really don't

mind either way. And that's a really big thing. And what it means is that Europe of foundations in place and a general mindset of being able to overachieve. The United States achievement in the Ryder Cup is limited to their abilities now. Fortunately, they are extremely capable golfers and that's why you know, in two years time they will very probably win back to the Rider Cup, or at least they will have a very good chance to do that.

But if they want to win away, you know, it is a long long time now, it would be thirty four years if they want to do that. You have to do things, you have to sacrifice, You have to do things that can make you a little bit better as a team than you are as individuals, and there are loads of things to that. I'm sure you know, Luke Donald would have a far better understanding of that

than me. But the American team structure needs to understand it as well, and it needs to spend time talking with the players and getting that point of view across. And if there are players who refuse to accept it, then they simply shouldn't be playing. It really seems that straightforward, and it's one of those things. We have a qualification

system and that's what it is. But in other sports, I mean, I think you mentioned some American football coaches I believe earlier, so I'm going to mention it.

Brian Harm's a bad example. I'm sure he's fully invested, but he didn't really have that choice. I mean, maybe that's one option they can look at in future. Let's just pick the twelve players we want to pick that we believe will make a team. Because any system where people are turning up who don't necessarily want to be there, and I just I mean on that clearly they want to be once they're there, they want to win their

competitors and we saw that from Patrick Cantlay. Of course he's going to want to win that match on Saturday night. Of course he wants to beat Justin Rose. But that's not really the whole of wanting to be there. Wanting to be there is wanting to be a teammate, is being willing to sit out a session, is being willing to play with brooks Kepka or Brian Harmon whoever. Doesn't have to be with the as Justin Rose pub, it

doesn't have to be with the best mate. It's making those sacrifices and until the US as a whole show that they're willing to do that, or a captain shows that he's willing to make them do that. And obviously, as you said, Tom Watson kind of tried and maybe that that there has to be a middle ground and that's what good management is, right, but being able to manage difficult personalities, big egos, world class individuals and make them into a coherent team. And I think really that's

where Zach fell short. But he's not alone, and you know, the players take a good deal of responsibility as well.

Lacava situation. And you know, I'm not that interested in getting super deep into it because there are a million other podcasts that you can listen to that will probably do a blow by blow of that. They've already talked about it. Brendan and Andy have already talked about it in a great way on the Shotgun Start. But I thought that one really interesting thing about that situation was

how Luke Donald handled it. You know, I would imagine that the expectation for American, an American captain would be that he would come out and beat his chest with the media and fully get behind his player and say, yeah, he was justified, And I'm right there with him and that's the accommodating, uh, you know, a way of dealing with that kind of situation as a leader, saying that every single thing that any player does I completely agree with.

I don't think Luke Donald really took that approach. He was more like, you know, I'll have a discussion with Rory about it and we'll move on from there. And so he didn't. It didn't seem like Luke Donald felt the need to show Rory, oh, I completely support you. I'm I'm right there with you, I'm in this, I'm in this fight with you. He didn't do that, and you have to respect that because it's clear that Donald wasn't just there to be an advocate for his players.

He was an advocate for the team as a whole.

And I think he's a very different response you've got from maybe even a Padrick Harrington whistling straits, you know, certainly a Thomas Bjorn, but a number of captains previously would have dealt with that very very differently because I think ultimately, again without going into the detail, I think Rory was probably very justified in his anger, if not the way he displayed it. And it would have been very easy for lou Donald's come out and say that's

simply not acceptable of a caddy, but he didn't. And I thought although Victor Harvlin seemed to suggest that that wasn't a message that had been got across to them, and I know, you know, everyone prepares differently, and Rory was reading on the bus and all this stuff, but I thought there was a real It was really interesting to see the demeanor of all of the European players on Sunday. It was as if they'd learned some lessons from even Rory against Patrick Reid at Hazeltine and conserved

a little bit of energy. It was a determined reaction to everything that went right. It was a very similar aesthetically fist bump. It was not a whipping up of the crowd. It was business and focus and determination. And again I think that in some way, whether it was a directive or not, in some way that comes back down to the captain and the mood that he set in that team room about getting the job done, and they did him proud in the end.