I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.
Ball in a brid egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida egg, fridagg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of.
The hup course.
Welcome back to another edition of the FRIDAYGG podcast in our Superintendent series. As always, today's episode is brought to you by Toro. Americans like our utility vehicles the way we like our US open courses.
Rugged.
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less RPMs, and less fuel consumption when it isn't. That kind of all around performance is what champions are made of. Follow at Toro Golf on Twitter and reach out to your local Toro distributor to schedule a demo. Today's episode is with Sandy Reid, the director of greenkeeping at Saint Andrews Links. I met Sandy when I was over for the Open this year, and Sandy oversees all the courses at Saint Andrews so all seven, manages the entire team
and is a wonderful guy. Before Saint Andrews, he worked at Carnousti.
So, without further ado, here is Sandy Reed.
All right, Sandy, obviously a crazy year for you. Can you can you give us an idea? You know, most people, I think look at hosting one major tournament, one big event as a you know, a big year. What's it like when you're doing too and you have the the obviously the one hundred and fiftieth Open and the last just finishing up last week, the Dunhill. What what's that like from a you know, kind of a setup in a in a golf course strain perspective?
Yeah, well, I guess preparing for the Open. I don't It doesn't really come any bigger than that, but you know, preparations for that they've been you know, they have three or four years in the making really, so pretty much our whole whole priority for the year wars around just having the golf course set up for that, which we feel we did, you know, reasonably good job. But as for the Dunhill.
That what else.
It's a big DP World Tour event. It's actually pretty straightforward for us to prepare for. You know, this time of year, the grass is almost stop growing, there's no rough for anything to marriage. The only thing we're really trying to do is make sure there's no disease on the greens, you know, So Dunhill's relatively straightforward. So but yet everything that went into preparing for the one hundred and fiftieth Open, you know that there's a lot of a lot of stuff goes into that, whether it be
on the course or infrastructure. And we're quite a complex site here with golf courses at either side of the old so all the all the tentage and bits and pieces, you know, it impacts all the courses here and that's where you know that that kept me busy for the first half of the year, that's for sure.
Yeah, what how long was the infrastructure build out for the Open? It was huge and how much time went into just putting it up.
So the contractors they came on site in the fourteenth of March is when they they came on site. The build started first Monday in April, when we say Monday the fourth thereabouts, So yeah, there would be a good three full months of of of build.
Now. It was in the early weeks, it was fairly gentle.
It was manty, mainly grand stands in early early while the tentage it really ramped up in that last six or eight weeks out the tented village that that sits on our driving range or golf academy, that was a fairly substantial build, right enough, So we had to close that down just at the end of April, if I recall.
So that was fairly complex.
But yeah, I believe it was probably the biggest infrastructure there's ever been at the the Open. Open every year pretty much and worked three cannucially prior to here, but you know, different scale altogether.
So you've worked at Carnousty and uh and the saying Andrew's we're going to take those away.
What what's your favorite?
You just you know, mentioned going to the Open every year, what's your favorite venue non Carnousty or the.
I would say Birkdale probably. I've not played them all. I've not or I've played Newfield. I've only played I only played this for them, so I've only played nine holes if you like half the course. Birkedale's probably my favorite out the rest. They're all great in their own way. I've not played George's and not really got inside the ropes per se.
It was down.
It was at the Open there last year, but with the COVID restrictions we didn't really get a great chance to get inside the ropes to really appreciate the course. But I would say Birkdale is probably my favorite out with the two that have been at.
Back to back to the Danehill and the Open.
How so did all the infrastructure come down and did new infrastructure go up?
How did that work?
Yep, every single thing came down and all from the opening, albeit some of the actual equipment just got stored on site and then got rebuilt again, just in a slightly different location or on a smaller scale. And funny, you know, some of the contractors, it was the same guys, you know. On twenty sixth of August, they officially finished with RNA, and on the twenty ninth of August they started with
IMG who run the dun Hills. So same guys, using the same stuff, but just building a slightly different place.
That's funny.
They just bring it down put it back up three days later, so you just, uh, it's gonna be like what in terms of the turf and like having stuff on it for effectively almost a year?
Now, what what are we What are you.
Looking at in terms of just the the damage done to it and and the bounce back from it.
Yeah, it depends what infrastructure was on the turf. Where there was the grand stands or bleachers, that's pretty that's pretty minimum. You know, there was a lot of there was still some daylight and air got underneath them where the tentage was, and the trackway, you know, the metal trackway where all the big articulated lorries come in. That's
really where we've lost a lot of grass. So on top of it being down for so long, we've had a very dry year as you would have seen it the open, and it's actually continued to be a little bit dryer than average. Perhaps post open, we've had some heavy spells of rain but recovery has perhaps been a little bit slower than we would have perhaps anticipated. We you know, been doing a lot of variation, a lot
of seeding, a lot of feeding. But it's going to be well next year before we get full of recovery. You know, there's some areas where the hospitality was on the on the second hold of the eating, which is quite bad. Some of the driving rangehere the tented village was so yeah, it's there's some substains stuff there. But here we've non stop since they open. The guys have been working on it, getting seed in the ground. So the challenges we've had golf, you know, all this infrastructures
and other golf courses. We've had golf on top of us, so you know, get an opportunity to get in there and do the work and have the have the young grass get some you know, time to itself without getting tramble.
It has been the tough thing for us.
That's I mean, you effectively operate like the the biggest municipal facility in the country, and I think, uh, how hard is it to do course projects at a at a public golf course where you don't really have shutdowns? I think you know, everybody always and I'm one, is clamoring for in America at least municipal golf to start to do some projects. But then, you know, the aspect of shutting down the t sheet is a really difficult thing.
How do you guys, you know, go about doing bigger projects in this case recovery, uh, from the from the tournament while people are you know, playing and you have pack t sheet.
Yeah, it can be quite tough, that's for sure. In fairness, you know, will we have these best part six and a half thousand ticket holders that play play golf here, so you know, we have to communicate well with them. But you know, generally everyone's been fairly helpful in that regard. You know, I talked about that hospitality tent on the second of the EAD and you know we shortened it to par three in advance and we played it for a par three for a few weeks thereafter. And most
people are pretty understanding. Wintertime, it's sims similar. We have, you know, have some decent side projects on the go each wintertime. We have a couple of sort of maintenance days through the winter that can help us just get some of the work done or we just have to try and move the team markers around the best we can. The problem is we have got a few of the clubs they still actually play handicapp count and competitions here too, so there's challenges with around.
That, but we'll find a way.
Basically, you know what, We'll work around the golf best we can and generally there's not really an issue.
I want to talk a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and and how did you get into golf.
So I grew up in you could see the central Highlands of Scotland, a little village called blair Rathel, so maybe for almost halfway between Perth and Inverness. And so my father was a deer stalker who you know, have the red deer and grouse on the on the moors. And I always thought I would be a god follow him into gamekeeping.
But I had played golf.
He he did golf, and so he would take my brother and I'm a younger brother and I golfing from I'm going to see a start when I was around about nine maybe if I forget, but a little nine hole course, yeah, nine hole course at Blairrathel, great little course, and we had family friends that were. He was the head greenkeeper Lockery golf Course, which is another ten minutes down the road. So when I when I was fourteen, he had asked if I was interested in some holiday work.
So I did jump at that. So for three years when I was fourteen fifteen sixteen, I worked at Eastern and summer holidays at Lockery.
At the end of that, when.
It came time for leaving school, I was never going to stay on too long at school.
I kind of wanted to leave.
When I was sixteen, I decided I wanted to give green keeping a shot. Signed up for a one year basic green keeping course at Elmwood College, which is actually not too far away from Andrews here only fifteen minutes away from s Andrews. But yes, signed up as a sixteen year old, did one year basic kind of greenkeeping stuff, but stayed on site college. Loved it, and then I guess the fortunate thing for me was I got a
job at the end of it. You know you, yeah, you wrote wrote a pile of letters away or what I should say. One of the modules we did at college, it wasn't just greenkeeping. One was on communications and teaching you how to write a letter properly, and so I remember writing. I'm going to say it was like twenty seven or twenty eight letters to golf courses all around in north and east of Scotland. That was kind of
where my family were from and where we holiday. I was more comfortable and knew the golf courses.
So that was the day.
I guess it was typewriters, but I think I would have handwritten all these letters. Wrote twenty seven or twenty eight, and I got one response, and the response was offering me a position. And this is where I think, perhaps and maybe a little bit of fake good luck whatever I had put on the letter that I was from a gamekeeping family. So the guy that offered me a job, he was into his shooting and his dogs, training dogs
and stuff. And I think rather than any of my greenkeeping qualifications, it was the fact that I said I was the son of a gamekeeper that was probably we kind of piqued his interest. So and that was a place called Lethem Grange, which is probably it's sadly closed down a couple of years ago, but that's maybe about ten fifteen minutes away from CARNUSI. So I was three years there and then fortunately he got an assistant's job
at at Carnousi. But what before I finished, what I should say is that guy that offered me the job back in ninety four, he's now my father in law.
So no, that's right.
Yeah I met so he got a job, you got a job, and you met your wife.
I met my wife there as well.
Yet so we're still happily together all these all this time later.
Yeah, that's wild.
You know, what an interesting way to get into the business, but also just you know what an amazing first job, right, yeah, you know, changing your life really yeah, absolutely, so many ways. Yeah, what what you know, what do you start working as a as a kid in during holiday and you know, in part time? What wasn't it about the green, about the jobs and working on the golf course that you liked and made you want to do that rather than you know, kind of going following in the family footsteps.
Well, I guess it was still an outdoors type thing. I think I really enjoyed the sense of achievement of of doing a task and seeing it completed, and you know, enjoying the fruits of your labor if you like, you know, there was almost a fairly immediate self sense of satisfaction from completing a job. And in those days when I was at school, I wasn't really on the equipment. It was raking bunkers and brushing grass and stuff. But I think I just enjoyed kind of trying to do a
job and doing it doing it well. I think that's really the catalyst for getting me into it.
Mm hmm. It's I think about that.
Like I was out at a golf course this morning, you know, shooting some stuff, filming, and I was just thinking about, like how when you're mowing a green, it's just like when you're mowing a yard, but that idea of like you can see the progress and then you finish it, and it's very like kind of it is rewarding. There is like a nice sense of accomplishment when you when you finish these types of things. And so how
did you get looped in at CARNOUSTI was that? Were you just looking for a new place to move up to, and and that was you know, how how did that work?
Know? That was there was an advertisement in the local newspaper. I hadn't hadn't been looking for a job, but yeah, an advertisement came up and I applied for it, and.
Yeah, you just got the job.
It was fairly state forward, what I do remainber but I had one of the longest interviews in my life. So the superintendent at that point was you could see a legendary grenk keeper in UK circles, a guy called John Philip, and he had pretty much transformed canusie if you like. You know, it was in a pretty sorry state when he took over eighty five, and he had turned its fortunes around. It was just a big snowball effect. Has it got better, It got more, you know, more visitors,
more incoming. We were able to spend more. But by that point, you know, I started there in ninety seven, so that point they had already hosted two Scottish opens in ninety five and ninety six. The open was coming around the corner of ninety nine, so you know, when the advert came up, I had jumped at the chance of going for it. Had an interview with draw and that lasted, yeah, two or three hours, and I didn't
do very much talking. I can tell you is John's one of the most enthusiastic guys you'll ever meet.
So yeah, but I got the job there, and you know, just over.
The years kind of managed to work my way up. But it's it's a it's a real, real special place, CANUSI you know, I still hold it fondly in my heart.
You know, you know all the work that we did there.
And how good the turf is, you know, from a tough manager, and it takes a bit of.
Beating yeah with you as you describe jan as a as a legend. You know when you worked for him, what was kind of the biggest thing that you took away?
How do he shape you as an individual?
He was a hard worker.
I like to think I was a hard worker, but he you know, I felt you could. He wouldn't say pat you on the back, but you knew you. I always thought I was kind of trying to please him, put my best foute forward.
I enjoyed my work too. But he was so enthusiastic about.
The turf and the game. He's a bit of a historian, you know, he really knows his stuff about the game, especially the open and you know Tom Morris and he could really talk about the history of Carnousti especially, But he was such an enthusias asked for for the turf and you know, and the challenges he would have had to try and make it better. He he was perhaps a little bit more I don't know what. We're not ruthless, but he he didn't care so much about the golfers.
He just got on and did the work. And you know, if there was flak coming his way, he just accepted it, you know, and just moved on. He he knew he was doing it for the betterment of the course, so he you know, there was nothing really stopped him and in terms of doing what he felt was best for for the turf, and in terms and turned of course. So yeah, real, just an enthusiastic guy about his vacation and the game.
Name two things I love myself.
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Follow at Toro Golf on Twitter and reach out to your local Toro distributor today. Now back to Sandy Reid.
So you worked your.
Way up and and were it became ran essentially the maintenance UH program at Carnousti over the years. What were your you know, favorite parts of of Carnusty just as a place in general, and how you guys went about maintaining it.
And.
Well, a couple of things you talked to you a little, you know, just the standards of tough quality, tough presentation there, and it kind of almost became a little bit addictive just trying to see how you know, looking how you know, figuring out ways we could make it better.
You know, the tentionent to detail.
It wasn't just in the tough you know, bunker preparation, the bunker revetments. In my eyes, you'll you'll not see bunkers built any better, you know, to a better quality. And the golf course, especially the Championship of course, the three course of fifty four holes at Canusi, you know, three supercourses, but the Championship course it's a special place you know, it's really you know, it's a test of your game for starters, but there's so many different challenges
that it kind of throws out. Yet you know that the bunkering, as in the strategic element of the bunkering around there takes a bit of beating.
Too, you know.
So and you do know that it's you know, there's so much history a place as there is here that people, loads of people in my shoes before me, had had similar challenges, more difficult challenges perhaps, But we're.
You know, we're looking after our course.
Not all all had their left or mark and some some way or another, you know, it had all looked to make some form of improvements, especially Canoustie, you know, there had been quite a few changes there over the years. Perhaps a little bit more difficult to achieve that sort of thing here in the old course with it.
What you said about the bunkers, the best built bunkers, what what makes them so well built?
I think it's just the the sharpness, if you like, round the around the you know, how they fit into the ground. I guess maybe Kanusti does differ, though a lot of the bunkers a Knousi aren't really pop bunkers per se, the more up in your face, you know there you hear it's and who's a lot more of the bunkers probably sit down into the ground a little bit more, whereas CANOUSTI They probably sit up so that you know, how you tie that into the ground.
Perhaps is.
Can be a little bit more visually impressive. I guess, you know, you see more of the bunker. But the guys there and that was well before my time. You know, they just built a good bunker. They you know, they get their their angles, just the slopes of the tapers, the quality of turf, you know, the run ends, you know, just the shapes that shuits the ground, makes maintenance, I guess easier to gathers gathers the ball in the right way.
Here. Loads of play people build great bunkers.
But I go when I go back there, yeah, I still look at them think, yeah, I'd love to get to that stage here at Andrews.
What would you say is like, you know, in terms of when you think back to carneu see, what was the the biggest challenge to to presenting that golf course on a daily basis?
What what was kind of the thing that would keep you up at night.
I've often always said I've never I don't know that I've ever been kept up at night thinking about turf. I kept now thinking about people, But I don't know that I've been kept up and now thinking about turf. But the way I guess in relation to that, just you know that you don't necessarily have a places, not just candas, a lot of links courses, a lot of courses around the world, I guess, But you know, the time that you've got in the morning to do your prep and then golf right on the back of you.
You know, even in the height of the summer, you know you might only have an hour, and if you're trying to do maintenances in top dressing or spraying, and you know, you really have to think on your feet the amount of times that we would do stuff on a Sunday evening, you know, to try and get a head start. You know, Sunday evenings might be you know,
behind the last of the visitors. You'd make a head start to some of the spray operations or top dressing at least get six greens done, just so that you had that head start in the morning to ensure you didn't get swallowed up by the golf the next day, so that was probably some of the biggest challenges. I would say, mm hm.
What you know, so you're running Carnoustay, how did the job at St. Andrew's come up? And were you immediately interested? I imagine you probably. I can't imagine there's a job that's you know, bigger or or necessarily better, but like walk us through that whole process.
Yeah, so there is a bit of a story to that, So you're right it is. I guess in my eyes it doesn't really get any bigger than Sir Andrew's. But also in my eyes, I was at the next best place at KNUSI. You know, you know, I had a great job there. We were very settled, you know, I've got great wife and two super kids who were at that point eight and five. I think it was so yeah,
a month. It was a month. I was always preparing for the open in twenty eighteen, and then three weeks before they open, it was announced that Gordon Moyer, my predecessor here, he was going to be retiring, which was that in essence, was earlier retirement. He was only fifty nine at the time, so not that I had ever caught myself thinking about Andrews.
But if I did it, you.
Know, always thought, well, Gordon's got a long time before or he would ever retire. So yeah, he announced just at the end of June the twenty eighteen that was retiring, and my head was a little bit scrambled, to be honest, because you're preparing for the open and then you're thinking, well, the only job that I would maybe ever turn my
head is now up. And yeah, it took it took me a long time to figure out if I was even going to apply for it, and you know, the I had some conversations gronomisted John Philp, my former boss at CANU Stay, and it wasn't till my wife had said, look, I think you're going to have to go for it that I did. You know, we had a few years earlier with what we thought was our forever home as well, you know, so there was there was a lot, kind of a lot in the mix. But so yeah, the
interviews came around. I did absolutely no preparation for the first interview because I still wasn't convinced that I wanted the job it was right for me, So did no preparation.
That was a fairly.
Relatively informal was with at that point you Loud and he was the former chief executive here at Andrews Links Trust and my predecessor, Gordon Moyer, so it was more of a sit down chat with them, and then the second There was a second interview, maybe a couple of weeks later, but by the time that came around, I was ready.
Was the first one first interview like in the lead up to the to the open at Carnousti.
Or was it after?
It was after?
Yeah, so okay, I just was curious, you know what, I've missed out a part of the story here I get carried away. So the closing date was the the Friday after the open, and I still hadn't Yeah, I still hadn't made my mind up the applications. There was no email applications. It was applications by post. So on the Thursday night before the closing date, I drove over from Carnousti to St. Andrews with my application because I
couldn't I couldn't get it here in times. So it was last It was really last minute that I made a decision to do it.
So the liar, Yeah, I drove over eight.
O'clock on the Thursday night with my application, so that that yeah, that's how that came out. So and then the yeah, then first interview must have been early early August, so second interview came around. By that time, I was ready,
you know, I wanted the job. It was perhaps that competitive part two, you think, well, I want to make sure that I'm I show that I'm the best, the best, you know, you know, I didn't know who would be applying for it, but you could perhaps it was that element too, But I was ready at that point to say, yeah,
Andrews is the is the job that I want. Unfortunately that I came through that process that involved the chair chair of the trustees and the chair of the Links Management Committee as well as chief exec and former director of Greenkeeping, and came came through and on top of that process and it's been it's been great.
So do you live in Saint Andrews Propper.
Yeah, we moved over so KNUSI is not Fat's only maybe a forty five minute commute. But I guess that was one of the challenges when the job came up. I've always lived pretty close to my work, always within five ten minutes and Also at that point, my wife's health hadn't been so good. She wasn't driving through because of epilepsy, and I had the young kids, and I thought, well,
have I moving worked? If I was going to move work to Andrews and my wife can't drive and the young kids need ferried about for some reason, you know, I'm you know, I'm forty five minutes or an hour at night time from getting home from being able to help out. So I always felt that if I was to get the job at Andrews, it meant moving home. So we managed to get We're fortunate we martually get a house in the town just maybe six months after I started here. And it's so it's great living in the town.
Really is what's your favorite part about living in in ten Enders? I feel like I didn't get like the normal experience obviously being there the weak up and it was a bit hectic, But it seems like an amazing town to live in.
Yeah, it really is.
You know, it's like living in a city but small. You know, it's got a lot of I mean it is. There's a lot of things here that you can do, a lot of great places to eat and drink, a lot of good stuff for the kids, you know, activities for the kids. Obviously, golf courses on your doorstep, the beach, you know, the west Ange is next to golf courses here, great place to come.
Schools, schools are good.
Yeah, it's just it's just an all nice, nice time.
What So you take over like a massive operation, and you obviously have how many How many people on staff do you have?
I have sixty nine stuff, sixty nine permanent staff within the greenkeeping function.
What you know, how do you how do you implement change if you if you want to change something like you know, obviously everybody's been doing things, you know, a certain way, and I imagine you come in and every but it's different they you know you you know, everybody runs things a little bit differently.
How how did you go about that process of.
Implementing the way you want things run with a staff that you know had been working for somebody else.
Yeah, I guess I would say, Yeah, he's almost four years in and I still wouldn't say that I've implemented too much in the way of change. But I don't know that I'm that way inclined them. You know, it's a very similar position here than it was at Carnousie. You know, your your charge of multiple courses, but you've got superintendents underneath you, and I was in their shoes.
I was.
I worked under John Philip CANUSI I was looking after the championship course. But I didn't want John tell me what to do, you know, I wanted my place. I wanted the accountability, the responsibility of looking after the course. So I've always tried to manage my course managers ahead greenkeepers that way, give them their space to do that. So if I'm looking to implement change, it's not I'm not going to dictating stuff to them. I want them to have the freedom to manage things how they want,
so long as the results are good, you know. And they're all doing a great, great job, but they just get there slightly differently, you know, in terms of how they manage their tough But really for me, it's just about it's having chats. It's been in the guys years, you know, and just you know, it's have you thought
of this? You know, it's suggesting rather than dictating. But there has been one or two, you know, changes I have made, and I think but generally it's been through agreement with the guys too, you know, and whether that be too structural elements on the team or even influence on the courses. You know, we've changing, you know, whether it be a winter a couple of winter projects. But we kind of talked through as a kind of a collective really, but you know, I like to make sure
that I get their input. All the course managers, they're been here a lot longer and there most of them are older than me too, so you know, they know they know the site well, they know better than I do. So you know I have to I have to rely on them for for a lot of that.
You're raw in your raw at Carnoustiere.
You're not day to day out, you know, looking at every golf course and examining it like you would as a course manager running your own golf course. You know, do you miss what are like, I guess, do you miss and what aspects of being a course manager do you miss from your current job?
Absolutely, I must miss it every day. M fortunately stuck in the office most most of a week now. I think it maybe goes back to I think what I said earlier on about as a youngster. It's it's that sense of achievement, maybe achieving something physical. You know that
that's what you what's what I miss. But even I've always to back down the level to say, when I was the hay green keeper of the Championship course at Cnucia, I would view it as I had my plan with it, be for a day, a week, a month, a year,
a winter or whatever. I had my men, I had my equipment, you know, I had my materials, and you know, you you would plan around that get your jobs done, and you could you could see that, you know, that reward of what you had in your your mind, what the program you had ahead of you.
So I missed that.
Now you know that the wins I get are they're not quite so tangible, if you like, It's not quite the same physical aspect. So I do miss getting out on on the equipment or or or or being involved in some of the day to day kind of running elements.
But that just goes with the territory. And you know, I enjoy seeing that I've perhaps had an influence on, you know, anyone on the team, not just the course managers or their deputies, but anyone that you know, when I can, I try to speak to them just even if it's just to pass the time of day, but trying to get to know them and you know, figure out if I can help them in anyway.
You said you give your course manaitors a lot of autonomy and let them kind of run their golf course, present their golf course the way they'd like to present it. Can you give us an example of how you know, you're different courses at St Andrew's differ just based off of the course manager and how in their philosophy, how they how they present the golf course.
Yeah, so.
I'll start just to give you an idea of the difference different responsibilities they have, you know, in the team underneath me. So well, there's seven courses or six and a half if you like, six, eighteens and nine. It's it's not like I've got seven different course managers. So I've got course manager for the old course. He just looks after that alone. There's a course manager looks after the new and the Jubilee with as one team. Now he's in the same facility as the course manager and
the old course. Then I've got a team that look after forty five holes, that look after Aiden's side. That's a single team. And that two of their courses are built on slightly different ground still Links, but it had formerly been agricultural ground. USGA are allegedly USGA greens on you know, twenty seven of the holes over there. And then we've got the Castle course outside the town which is completely different. It is built on clay, very much
Link style, but USGA greens up there. So they've all got slightly different things they need to look after and consider. I guess the closest ones really are the old Nude Jubilee and the Eden would be you know proper old school Links courses whether one hundred years plus old, so there are you know a lot of similarities there. The old has more play than the rest, you know, and you know the way it is is built, you know, the trafficking on the old courses is one of the
key challenges. You know, everyone's off the one side of the green and that's that's one of the main challenges they have. Expectations are obviously pretty high in the old course all year round. We have visitors, you know, ninety eight percent occupancy in the old course for the year.
So the pressure to keep.
Things you know, presentable and good neck when it's the same across all the courses really, but the the New and the Jubilee, you know that there and to an extent there, perhaps they've got even less time in the morning to prepare in front of the local golfers. They're getting chased around, you know, it might be a two ball, it's out first and nailing it round in two and a half hours, you know, And it's so it can be tough for they guys to get that opportunity to
do their their sort of maintenance. So they have to kind of box clever there, eat insides similar and then you've got the team numbers as well, so that pound for pound.
The old course has got the most men per hole if you like. You know, it's got the teams.
The four teams are almost comparable in size, but they look after a different amount of golf holes. But yeah, there's a lot of different challenges, a lot of different competitions. They all have to deal with. Castle does. It closes in the for four months in the wintertime, which helps them, but then they've got the pressure making sure everything's right all the way through this summer. It's a lot of as it has got there too, but they don't get
any maintenance done. Their seeding work they'll do when the course closes nearly November rather than in what we might call the growing season. So a few different challenges across the four teams.
Really, do do you notice a you know, like just a difference in how like do the managers of those facilities, just how how they go about process or you guys trying to present as similar conditions across the courses as possible.
We are trying to present similar conditions, but they definitely have different processes that there are different different outlooks on you know, nutrition, wetting agent, top dess is all very similar. You know that our sand and puts in terms of the targets for organic matter and the greens, but they all have all the coursemtagers have a different, slightly different style, which is fine because the results that they're achieving are all are all first class in my eyes, so I'm fine with that.
Obviously, something a big topic has been climate change, and I'm curious if climb and change or the thread of it has impacted how you guys do your job or the maintenance of the course and if you've if you've planned for any of the effects of it.
Yeah, it does seem to be having a little bit of effect. Well, I guess perhaps more of it's anecdotal, but what we're finding is the spring seems to be colder and longer than it has been in the past, which has meant growth. Is it a little bit behind
getting into the season? You're finding winters are generally slightly milder and then rainfall you have seen this year it's been a you know, what we call a drought, but what you're finding it's kind of feast of fam and you know you'll get dry, prolonged piers of dry weather and then all the rainal come at once. So I wouldn't be surprised by the year end we're back to our average in terms of rainfall, but it'll all fallen in at a shorter window of window of time.
What what part of the of the property is most susceptible to the erosion? What part of the I guess obviously the beach, but then maybe the golf aspect the.
Most delicate, but it's probably it's actually on the on the eding estuary.
So on this.
It wouldn't be a million miles away from say the eighth t and Old if you went up along east a little bit from there, so you know, right behind the eleventh the eleventh green on the old you know, we've got gabbing baskets along the east and estuary and that they end another maybe three four hundred yards up four hundred yards beyond that. So immediately as you get beyond the gabbying baskets, there's a as you can imagine, there's.
A weak area there with you know, the water.
There's a bit of water ingress also is in alignment with the actually burn the sort of the river course of the Eden that comes through the Eding Estuary puts a little bit extra pressure on on that June there so and the wind the way the wind batters there,
so that that's a probably our weakest spot. That's formally had two beach ree charges, you know, perhaps the best part of twenty thousand tons of sand driven in to almost recreate the dune and the beach there, and that's another thing we're planning for in the next few years. So it's a case of just holding the line, if you like, Matt, really just trying to maintain what we
have there. Some further round in the Eden est you're actually on the Eden course so you know, that's perhaps we might be most susceptible to a coastal flood of something, you know, and had a I think twenty ten was the last bad one we had there down at the Swelking. You know, there was a bad one there again twenty maybe it was the same time twenty ten. There was a bit of June lost there, but that was recharged and that's you know, that's actually growing. You know, there's
where we're a creating ground there. But you might say, you know that the Swulkan is tidaled and some high tides that the tide can come right up there doesn't quite burst its banks, but maybe if you had a bad coastal storm it potentially could. But yeah, I would say Eden Estuary is actually the the sort of most delicate point for us.
Just now, where what's your favorite part of the property. You know, just if you were if you were going to go for a walk, where would you where would you want to walk?
I guess anywhere along that Eating Estuary and right out to what we call the outthead. It's that it's the point at the where the Eating Estuary meets the North Sea, if you like, right out there out.
By you know, the eighth gin of the Jubilee.
Beautiful spot out there, you know, you you kind of look over to Lucas and tense Bere Forest, see right back down into the town. You see back down through the golf courses. So probably that's the that's the nicest spot.
You know. There's a little bit of height there as well. That just helps you see.
A little bit more of the ground around about you.
So that's where you go if you were going on a Sunday Sunday straw, yeah.
You would go.
And often it might be up just walking up the beach, you know, all the way up to the West Sands Beach and then just nip around the corner up and into the dunes. Yeah, that that that would be is a popular spot. And I'm no different.
Really tell us about how being closed in a park on Sunday impacts maintenance, obviously. I think that was one of the things that had the biggest impact on me was the idea of the major championship ending. And I walked out of the media center maybe two hours after and and people are all over the course. People are having effectively like a picnic, and the pop bunker on the seventeenth hole. You know, kids are kids are hitting golf shots. I mean it was, it was. It was
such a neat scene and atmosphere. And you know, I think America that doesn't happen really at any any golf courses. And most would say, point two, they're gonna nobody's gonna take care of the course and it's gonna get beat up.
Does is that? You know, does it make more work for you guys?
Like what, can you just maybe just talk about Sunday clothes being closed?
Yeah, well so Sunday it's closed to give it a race, as old to Modus would have said, but it probably the old course probably gets more people walking a Sunday than it does Monday to Saturday combined. When you see it. In fairness, most people are pretty respectful.
You know, we have.
People and dogs and bunkers and stuff. You know, we always know that on a Monday morning is going to be some extra work. But you know, fortunately, you know, there's not too much in the way of other damage goes on. Generally fairly respectful. We do use it as an opportunity to do some of the maintenance on the old you know, if we have top dressing operations or spray operations, and you know, and the weather's conducive. We'll
try and achieve that on a Sunday morning. So we'll generally have a few more staffing on a Sunday than we would on a Saturday when they're still play on. So yeah, we use Sundays as an opportunity to get some work done. I guess early on as we too, because there's still public come out. But I tend not to come down on a Sunday because it does you know, I'm not necessly used to seeing that many people on their course at once. It we just get me upset when I see, you know, kids and bunkers and running
right and skidding picking up ball. So I tend not to come down and look at it. But you know, in fairness, there's it causes a very little lessue.
And it's great.
It's it's a great thing for the community, you know, and and it's not just a local community.
There's plenty of others come but I think, you.
Know, it's it's it's great to be able to share our facility with with other people. It's it's a beautiful spot to walk.
You know.
I'd imagine that you know, part of the reason that it's worked where you haven't had like major problems is that it's you know, the fact that it's open every Sunday creates it almost like a it's like it's a normal place to go and there isn't any you know, and there's a lot of pride obviously within the community for it.
Right Yeah, no, absolutely, you're you're right. You know, if you are down at you know, you see a lot of similar people out, certainly in the early stages of a day, and I think you're right. You know, it's the link says really, you know, it's we're sort of the links us. We're custodians of it, if you like, on behalf of the people of the town. So everyone in the town appreciates what the you know, the courses here, you know, the links is for them, is for the town.
So yeah, people do, they do appreciate, they do respect it.
What's the best time to visit outside of you know, summer.
If you're going to golf or if you're just going to come and visit, because I would say for golf, your best time, I would say September is a great a great month, you know, like in the UK in general, I would say September is a great month for golf, especially the Links course. The fescue is really kind of really strong in September, you know. I would also say
September is a great, great time. It would be one of my favorite, I would say, But you can get some great weather, you know, we just well still partly in September there but other than Friday, you know the Dunhill where some great weather. The Dunhill there some great you know, the sun is just that a little bit lower to you know cast the shadows over the place again was off at his based, so I obviously early autumn.
Yeah, when those when those shadows come, it's just it's unbelievable how spectacular it is. We saw how baked out, how brown, you know, I don't know if baked out's the best term, but just how brown, how fast the golf course played at at the Old at the Open, it was. It was incredible. You know what type of strain at that point was put on the grass? Like what were you ever? You know, we're you know, you and the team ever worried about about the grass and then how long did it take to bounce back?
And like what what are we.
Talking about in terms of recovery, like the moment the determined idd what what was going on?
Yeah, things were very dry and we were talking about the well, I'll talk a little bit about the but it was it was a very dry year from April.
Really it has been a very dry year.
But we were keeping moisture levels where we were, you know, within target. We still had play right through till the sort of third end of the third week of June, so we're having to maintain the tough for just the challenges of that. But we always know that tough can given the right weather, tough and the links environment can dry out pretty quick. And we were always you know, you know, obviously in conjunction with Arnie, looking to try and get a firm, fast course and that's years in
the making through top dressing. You know, even it had it been a green course, it would have still been quite firm. But we had managed that moisture, you know, kept it level and then just gradually brought it, brought it down, and we had a target in our in our in our heads, you know, where we would like to be, you know, with a moisture to get a certain firmness on the greens. But in reality, we we
actually got dryer. We were able to keep things drier and firmer than we thought we could while still maintaining could toll of the turf. So the challenges you've got. You know, if things get dryer, things get faster and firmer. But if it gets that dry, your speed can sometimes get out of control. Get you know, you can't slow
up again. But fortunately, you know, you know, we worked really closely with our ne agronomy team and we're taking moistures twice a day, really targeting in you know, certainly through the the week before the championship and championship week we revised our targets down the way more lower than Gordon Gordon McKay that the course manager and I would probably have ever envisage or been comfortable within the past.
But when you see how how you know, had a resource to are disposable to manage it, you know, with all the handwatering in the evening, and we were able to keep with things really quite you know, dry and firm, but being complete ConTroll of green speeds. It was it was quite rewarding. But yeah, it would be lying if you said you were you know, you weren't concerned that you might not get the bounce back. But you know, as for the bounce back, you know, no problem at all.
You know.
The sprinklers went on the Sunday night, really really, I guess that was the start of it.
We got some rain the following week.
Yeah, I was standing in the dorms looking out. I was, I was looking out over one in eighteen my window. And I remember I woke up Monday or Monday and I felt, you know, every morning I'd look out at the course and I felt like it looked like it had a little bit and it already started to have a little bit different color profile than the days before.
Yeah, well, things had been, like I say, things had been dry early early on, and I'm.
Trying to think.
I'm going to say it was two weeks before they open, two and a half weeks before they open. There was a wet weekend that we had, which is kind of set us back a little bit. You know, we thought things were just dialed in fine, we were just managing that moisture down and then we had a weekend a lot of rain and things really greened up, and we didn't really know if you know, things would get get
act to where they had been. But it turns out the dead you know things you know, you could see every day things just drying out, drying out, and you're right through the championship days as well. You could tell, you could tell the difference. You know, there wasn't much grass coming off the surface, as I can tell you that it was. I had similar Knustian twenty eighteen. It
was a similar kind of thing back then. Probably funny enough though there was probably slightly more intense heat back in twenty eighteen, which some of the fescue, a lot of golf courses in the UK suffered with recovery in twenty eighteen versus this year. From what I'm hearing, there's a lot a lot of the fescue really struggled. Then this year it seems to have coked a little bit better.
I can't speak forevery I know down in South England some of the drought's been real bad this year and maybe they've lost a little bit more grass than we have up here, but no, in general, recovery has been has copd and be quite good.
So next year, next year, now championships twenty twenty four, you got the Women's Women's Open.
What is next year?
Just imagine it's going to feel a little bit like a like a breeze compared to this year.
Yeah, well we do have the Walker Cup next year on.
The old I forgot about that.
Yeah, so that's excited. That's hopefully relatively straightforward to prepare for.
It's just early September, but that's like.
The easiest, uh, I mean, there's gonna be the least amount of play ever on the oh of course, yeah for a week.
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, the play four sums is, it's only four matches out and that I think, and then there'll be other ten is it ten singles?
I forget each day, But yeah, we do have that.
Although like I say that that should hopefully be relatively straight forward to prepare for. It's you know, just it's the same time we have the r and A meeting prepare for the start of September every year anyway, so it would just be it's just you know, keeping things a little bit finer in advance of that. But yeah, it's a busy year. Bookings sort of through the roof that. We expect it to be a busy year on the course. But yeah, yeah, we've got the women's in twenty twenty four.
Thereafter match play at the old courses, I mean that they might be Everybody talks like, oh, it's a great great match player, like there might not be a better matchplay course in the world than than the old course.
That's right, as well as a as a great course anyway, but that strategic element, you know, there's you know, so many different ways you can play some of the holes, and yeah, I can imagine there'll be some some great matches with that.
So you know, it's something we're really really looking forward to.
It's you know, we've held a lot of work Worker Cups here in the past, but a long time ago, you know, so you know, it's it's great to have the have them back here.
The do you think they'll get a little bit more creative with setup, like using some some different TA boxes for that obviously, you know they won't have to worry about scoring and uh, people going bananas a lot.
I should, I should imagine, so I know, and I keep papping back to Chinercia, but you know, the we had the Amatur Championship in twenty fifteen there and you know, mixed things up a little bit there, you know, you know, like I said, the third hole would put the tea markers forward to have them, you know, have a go
at the green. I know some of actually the pros it off the back to you anyway in twenty eighteen, but yeah, I should imagine for a March play that there'll be some of the holes that you might you know, that might entice someone, you know, some sort of different shot. I guess it gets you just have to wait and see, but I should imagine.
So all right, well, thank you so much, Sandy. It's been been great chatting with you. People can find you obviously, you know, buried in the offices that at Saint Andrews, but I appreciate the time.
It was.
It was great meeting you this this summer, and I was glad we could do this, and congrats on really a terrific year in terms of championship golf and golf on TV. But you know, from everything I hear from people that have been over there, it's you know, the maintenance levels of all the courses have been just tremendous. So I appreciate your time and look forward to more conversations in the future.
Thanks so much. Dave was a pleasure talking to you.
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