Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast and our Superintendent series. This podcast is brought to you by Toro. Those big agricultural tractors you see working on golf courses with their clutch and complicated lever pulling sequences. In a turf maintenance application, they're like stepping onto the first tea not knowing which swing you have that day.
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time again for us northern folk. The Toro Outcross nine thousand and sixties like having all of your best golf shots say ready for use each and every round. Follow at Toro Golf on Twitter and reach out to your local Toro distributor to schedule a demo. This episode of our Superintendent series features Culver military Academy superintendent Michael Vessely.
Michael has been at Culver a few years now. It's a little known nine hole course in central Indiana, but it is one of the best nine hole courses in the world. Very few people know about it. The play is pretty restricted. Only people that can really play it are alumni, faculty, and students at Culver. Michael has been working on this Langford Moreau course for a few years and recently, in talking to one of his crew members,
he learned about some old tea boxes. So Culver was originally planned for twenty seven holes by langor Moreau, but you know, they built nine, like they did with many courses back then. And now this has led Michael on a little bit of a historical deep dive looking for remnants of the other holes that could have possibly accompanied these teas. So I went out. It's it's about two hours from Chicago, and Michael and I walked around the woods for a couple hours looking for greens teas. Found
something that might look might look like a green. We'll see, we'll see if we can find out more in the future. But Michael, we talked about his career as well as Langford Moreau maintaining Culver and the historical dive that he's on and and what he's uncovering and the whole process. So, without further ado, here's Michael Vesily and I hope everybody had a happy and safe holidays. I miss the green for example. I'm already up set. When I find my
ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.
Ball in a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida, egg Frida, egg bri egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off.
Of the hump. What when you were a kid, what subjects were your best at in school?
Uh? Math for sure, and uh that's probably my best one. Uh and science as well.
Science, Yeah that makes sense for a Yeah, yeah, we were you good at history?
Uh? I was interested in history for sure and still still am. But uh yeah, I guess it wasn't one of my best subjects, but it interests.
Me now now you find yourself immersed in a historical deep dive.
Correct, Yeah, it's it's been interesting.
So you're at Culvert. It's a famous military school, world renowned and it has nine hole golf course. Lang for Moreau that relatively untouched, pretty much untouched except for a couple of things, maybe restored. You came in mid restoration. But tell us a little bit about the last couple of weeks and what's how you've gotten on. You've found some tea boxes.
Yeah, the last couple of weeks, like I said, have been interesting. I was we were out cutting up a tree that had blown over, and there's a gentleman that works here that's been employed with the Academy for thirty five years, and he just nonchalantly mentions there was a tea box underneath our current maintenance building. And you know, I looked at him puzzled, like you know what you talk about? And he's like, there was a tea box.
I used to mow until they built the new maintenance building, along with a few others that are out on the property, which got me to looking into what else was out there. And I've recently started digging into the old it's called the Vedet. It was the Culvert Academy publication that's been ongoing since the late eighteen hundreds, and just looking at articles to see if there were other holes that were built or what else is out there? So it's taken me on an interesting trip so far.
Yeah, it was the length from a Roe plan. They designed twenty seven holes for the military Academy. It's long been believed that they only built the nine correct, and so you've been diving in would have been the interesting I mean, one of the beautiful things with it being in a.
School is the paper exactly.
Not a lot of courses had this their own like essentially publication, right right, So you've started to read what what are some interesting things that you've found that maybe push you one way or push you the other way.
Yeah, so I've started I've gotten to as early as nineteen twenty one where golf was becoming popular in this area. According to the paper, it was the new sport, the new sport from Europe, and uh was was catching on. They called it. I've read a few articles where they called it the golf bug was catching on and uh and Culver is proud of is proud of its athletic prowess and and uh uh you know, fielding a lot of a lot of sports and athletics, and they uh
wanted to get into golf. So there was, uh, there was a lot of talking in early twenties. Obviously of of a golf course, they used the Max and Cookie UH country clubs what it was called UH. Then it seemed like from what I've read, they used that to play golf UH from time to time, and I wasn't a set schedule or anything. They just would call it local schools. They even played Notre Dame for many years,
the university the university UH. After later on on they would just play the freshman Notre Dame team, but they played the university Notre Dame golf team. They played Valparaiso University golf team, I've read. So it was just, you know, the sport was catching on, I think, and it just it grew and grew and and Culver always wanted the finest for their cadets. And that's where the Culver family
decided to build the golf course. I mentioned to you that they found three firms that they that were drawing up plans for the course. Now I've yet to find out who the other two firms were. Obviously one of them had to have been Langford and Moreau. So it's
that was an interesting tibit I found. The other thing was there there was there's not a lot of mention of extra holes after nineteen twenty four until you get to nineteen thirty two where there was mention in an article that they wanted to expand the course to an eighteen whole course. So originally twenty seven.
The time to considering, yeah, eighteen expansion right.
Right, because you know, figure the depression. I know enrollment was down after the depression, but you know for there there was there's a mention in an article of expanding it then. So you know, those those are probably the most interesting things I found so far. Now I'm just getting into it so that there's a long way to go to figure out where these tea boxes came from, why they're here, and if anything else was ever done.
Obviously the golf community it I think one of the amazing things that Twitter has done is for your profession, is that it connects you with all these different people.
Talk about a little bit how Twitter and the ability to you know, you had conversations with all these people that have been either that can relate to this or lend expertise in different areas for this to talk a little bit about you know, who you've connected with and where how they've kind of helped you push you into certain directions on your kind of history hunt here.
Yeah. Well, Twitter has been great for me personally for agonomic reasons. First, I was not, you know, an architect junkie before I came here. I was more into turf than architecture until I saw this place and it piqued my interest. And obviously being here, a lot of people have in that arena have contacted me because they're interested in culver. So it has lent itself to a pretty big network of architect fans and people who are well
more equipped at digging into history than I have. Now I have connected with with Sean Tolley at Metal Club via Twitter, uh and then we we spent five days at a it was called the Superintendent's Retreat Mindfulness Retreat. It was at Prince Edward Island and UH in Canada, and him and I were both selected. So I was able to spend four or five days with Sean in a beautiful setting and and we we talked a lot, uh,
not just about golf, but a lot of things. But you know, when one evening he broke out his his hard drive with all his findings he had, which was just incredible, but since in the last couple of weeks, Uh, you know, interest has perked up in in what I'm finding out here, and we had a we had a very good conversation uh this past weekend. Uh. He's he's coaching me on on how to do things and where to do things and where to look, and so it's been he's been a great asset in this journey so far.
What type of stuff has he been recommending, because obviously you're at the beginning of this, like, you know, what type of you know, research methods was he suggesting that you might not have thought of.
Well, Well, one good thing, as you mentioned, is we have in archives here at the Academy, so that I'm lucky in that respect, is that I've got all these newspapers. Plus there are things over there. Communications between Culver and whomever we may be looking for are over there, along with photos. So the paper is a good start, and then the photos and everything else that's at our museum
is going to be another deep dive. But one interesting thing he mentioned was to find photographers that took pictures
back then. He has found out there a family that has been in photography since the twenties and the family has just carried it on and he would he would find photos with the name of the of the family at the bottom, and then he would contact the the current family members and say, hey, do you have photos from and uh, they at first they didn't think that they did, and Sean showed them a picture of of I think it might have been Cyprus that had their
name on it. So they looked into it and sure enough they had photos of golf courses back then, back in the twenties. So that that was an interesting idea to find out photographers and if there's a family lineage of photographers still around. And one interesting thing. The other interesting thing was to go to postcard shows to find people that have postcards from you know, and he's he's like, you never know where it leads or where it can go. I mean he's he's made connections that way. So it's
it's a it's going to be interesting. I'm looking for or to dig it in a little further.
So next step is to get really deep into archives.
Yeah, that's the next step, and you know, you get track down some I mentioned IRV Nelson, who is the golf pro here in the twenties, to try and track down his family lineagency. If there's children around that may have some things from from then you know, there's just so many ways you can go. It's it'll be like I said, interesting.
What I mean in say you're you go down this rabbit hole, like what would be you know, dream scenario for you.
Well, a dream scenario maybe to find a green pad maybe, But you know, I'm really not. I really haven't thought that far ahead. I just it's more of a historical thing to find out what happened when and what changed and why they you know, I'm sure when I get as I mentioned, when we get to the Second World War, that's probably when things were just like you know, done.
But we're I'm at a point now, like I said, with nineteen thirty two to the forties, you know what what transpired, So you know, more of historical reference for me now than I don't. I don't believe they'd ever expand the place or make another nine holes or anything like that. It's just more of a you know, this is this is what I found, and you know, we're finding some pretty neat things.
You just mentioned you weren't really into architecture. You ain't got here, ton't know a ton about it. How how is your you know, you're really into turf, how is your turf? I guess in presentation and style of maintenance changed as you've started to understand more about the history and uh and the architecture behind the golf course.
Yeah, it's shame change a lot. It's made me, made me think more about the things we're doing out here, looking at more, trying to present the course in in the the intent of the architect That's that's where it's changed. I've I've definitely become more minimalistic in our approach, trying to use less and just just use what's here and you know, maintain it to a high standard, but looking for more role looking for more playing slopes instead of the you know, sixty degree flop shot to look at.
You know, how can we maintain this area, firmer, How can we improve our mo lines to bring in bunkers that were intended to be hazards for balls to roll into?
Which is that that's been this past season was was a big goal of mine, was to try and improve our mo lines to incord greate these plateaus that lang are built that are you know, just amazing plateaus that that have so many features that I want to enhance those features and just bring more of a of a ground game back to which was the intention of this golf course for sure when it was built, and you can tell you can see the you can see the slopes and where balls were meant to go, so that
the minimalistic part and and trying to firm things up, and it has changed a lot my philosophy on on turf management for sure.
How have you gone obviously your nine hole course, small crew, not the big world's biggest budget and uh, you know the one nice thing you don't have a ton of play, But like, how have you gone about the expansions? What what strategy have you gone to achieve? Getting are with.
Well, we have the nineteen thirty nine aerial which which helps bring in some lines. But you know, I've I've talked to a couple people, Sean Tully's been one, David Normoyle. I've communicated a lot with him in the last year and a half about intent of molins. How greens that were built in the Golden Age were considered the head of the golf hole and the approaches were the shoulders, which is why not just the neck So.
Isn't it funny how everything got necked in?
Yeah, smaller it is, it is, and it and it definitely during the restoration they widened the approaches out immensely, but they didn't bring the bunkers in that sit front inside of the greens. So that's such a.
Good way to describe it.
Like the shoulder when David said that it was like a light went off, I'm like, I see it now. And he's got like a really great way of describing It's fantastic.
He's like one of the best communicators. Yes ever, mat.
Yes, yeah, I mean every I could show you the text message. I mean it's just like he says things and I'm just like that's perfect. Yeah, that's perfect. Couldn't set any better. And like the shoulders, I mean the light went off, I'm like, I see it. I saw it. You know, I could drive around. I say, I see what he was I see what he means when he
says that. And we were doing this when the US Women's Open was at the Country Club of Charleston this year, So we were talking during that and you could see a lot of I could visualize that from that course what he was talking about. The wide shoulders in the and the Greens were just the head of it. So you want to bring you want to bring all those characteristics into the hole. Uh And as see George Waters mentions, you you want you don't want to separate good shots
from bad shots. You want to separate good shots from great shots. So your ball will which you saw at the President's Cup, it can roll, you know, if you're off you know, a yard or two, it's going to go into a bunker, or it could roll next to the pin. I mean, it's just that that was that was my intent of changing the MOE lines around the Greens this year.
That President's Cup was pretty unbelievable to watch.
Right, Yeah, crazy crazy good.
I imagine from like a URF perspective, that was like a dream to watch. Yeah, you know, especially when you're you're starting to really bellie, Oh, I need to do this for the firmer and faster, for these reasons, and you know, uh, then you have this event that I imagine just affirmed your thoughts more.
Oh, absolutely absolutely. And they you know, no doubt they have an advantage with the with the soil condition as they have there and and all of that. Jazz I mean that they they can do those sort of things that we can get close to to stuff like that. We're here at culvert, we're at heavy clay soil, so it's it's hard to dry it out too much because you lose turf when that happens. So but it definitely
reaffirms a ground game more interesting, more fun. Seemed like to me to be able to play slopes and play angles and and things of that nature too, to enhance the game and make it more fun, I think for for everyone, not not just the best players, but I think that would that would be more fun for everyone. But one thing I noticed too while watching it is is their mode lines and how they incorporated all their bunkering around greens, which was the intent of the bunker.
The ball was, you know, a misshot was supposed to go into the bunker, not roll down three inch rough and stop, which is what we were dealing with here. So you know, to see to see roll Melbourne's bunkering in their close mode all the way around, you know, except on the backsides where they let the rough go, just kind of reaffirmed what we're trying to do here. So it was it was really fun to watch.
And there are you know, there there are some similarities, Like obviously Melbourne the soil is completely different, but you know, you've got large, undulating greens that have a lot of slopes around them that that make positioning extremely You can be in really good positions one day and really bad
positions the next day. Just thinking about the golf course, and I think it's obviously you know Langford Moreau where their greens were severe greens, and their surrounds were very difficult with big, bold bunkering right, you know, and and that in a way obviously the soils couldn't be more different, but the architecture behind them and the intent was very similar in terms of technically, how have you been going about your fairway expansions, Like is it a mowdown, is
it a sod? What have How have you been trying to approach them right now?
It's just we've just slowly been mowing them down. And you had blue grass, Uh yeah, I mean we got everything out here. I mean it's it's the hodgepodge of grasses. There's a lot more bent grass out here than I originally thought, so it's a lot of the area. I'm kind of just following where the bent grass takes me in some areas, but it basically what we've done is mowed them down, started sanding them top, dressing them more, you know, some some growth regulators to try and promote
the turf that we want. Uh yeah, aating more overseating.
How many how many times a year are you aerating the areas you're trying to expand?
Well this well this was our first season, so we we did them twice, uh and and and more sand. I mean that's just as kind of uh simple as that, you know, just trying to firm them up, get what we want, get the grass we want to grow going there, I I I'm trying.
You have this hodgepodge of grasses. When you aerate and sand you know, for the layman, what what is it doing?
Uh Well, we're we're firming the surface up, trying to get rid of the clay on top basically so we can get better drainage and just promote it gives a good base for the bent grass that we're trying to promote. We've done it. We've done it well on our greens. Our greens were never sanded for eighty years, so in the last five years. Uh, we've we've added about a three inch layer of sand into the profile of our greens,
which is obviously furn them up. They drain fairly well, and it's just it's just uh, a better environment for the rest to grow, so that we're taking that same philosophy out to the surrounds and the fairways. So it's it's not anything big or extravagant, it's just it takes time.
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distributor to schedule a demo. Now back to Michael Vessily, has there been any pushback from the people that've played here forever about the expanded areas?
No pushback, No pushback. It's uh, actually not a lot of people have even commented on it. You know. It's just you know, we get visitors from time to time that are into architecture, into lang from Moreau that and and they comment about it, how they'd like to see more of it, you know, expanded, more, more short grass. But as far as you know, the school's team or faculty, I don't get a lot of feedback about it, which is one of the downsides to not you know, those
are the only people that can play here. Yeah, it was it was you know, brought it. I questioned that before I took the job of what, you know, what was going to motivate me to keep going because I don't get daily comments about you know, the this was bad or this was good or you know that everyone hears, but you know, it's just the feedback I really get is probably on Twitter and and you know from a visitors that come and play.
So yeah, talk about talk about that you know, there's about two thousand a year played.
I would say, yeah, that's yes, that's high. That's probably high, okay, But so.
It's one of the lowest played golf. It's and for those wondering, I mean, one of the best nine hole courses in the world, without a doubt. I put it up there with any anywhere. But that's any nine hole golf course. I mean, it's it's one of the best courses of the Midwest. Uh. Do you have trouble with motivation ever? Without having like you know that so far?
No, because there's there's been an ergonomic challenge since I started. The greens were like walking on a mattress when I started, and I and you know, people say that, you know, jokingly, but they really were. So that was just from eighty years top dressed. Yeah, nothing, very spongy, very spongy, I mean, thatchy. I walked on the fourth green was the first green ever walked on, and I'm just like, my gosh, what's
going on here? But so there was the challenge of you know, bringing those back and they had just started expanding them out to where they are now. So we had a lot of thin areas and and they you know, they just didn't look very good at that time. So that, you know, that was a challenge and I knew it would be, and that that definitely kept me motivated. And luckily the other the other members of the crew were just as eager to make it, to make it better.
So you know, we're at a point now where pretty satisfied with the way our greens are reacting throughout the summer now. So you know, there's just different areas that I get to focus on. I I when I took the job, I assumed it'd be ten years or so before it was actually you know where I thought it should be, you know, because they didn't they didn't reced or redo the fairways. They redid a couple of tea boxes, but everything was just what's been here for one hundred years.
So it was just gonna be on us to make it fit what they wanted to do. So that's that's a challenge enough. And then you know we focus. I'm lucky that we focus on the boys season in the spring and the girls season in the in the fall. The summer's kind of slow here because of our summer camp. We have six week summer camp from about the third week of June to the beginning of August, so the course is closed during the week all day until they're
done with their camp classes. So you know, we get to have a little downtime in the summer, which is.
What do you do in those those days we're here.
I mean we we we do our mowing in the morning and then we you know, it's a three man true, okay and including me, so it's very busy to get everything done that we try to get done for three people. It's probably the busiest I've ever been, but it's not a stressed out busy, you know, you just you go from one job to the next, so it you know, it takes two of us to mow and roll greens every day while the other guys mow and rough are moving tea markers or you know, it's just a it's
a busy time during the summer. But we just don't have a play that you normally would to get around. I mean we're getting around most most times. The kids during their classes are either playing this four holes the one through four or they're on five through nine. So we always have a place where we can we can go and find projects to do and things of that nature. So you know, it's we're not working around people, but it's still it's still busy.
What uh, what what were you doing before this this job?
What was it?
What? What? What course were you working at?
I was at Blackthorne in South Bend for three years as he's assistant. I started out, was that was that private or it's a public public golf course? Yeah? Very busy, very busy. I mean, uh, you know, one hundred and fifty two hundred rounds a day. I started at a at a growing actually at a course in my hometown in North Jutson. The course is called Chesapeake Crown. It's
still there. The owner of the golf course I grew up playing was building a course in my home town, and I was I I went to college for a year, didn't know what I wanted to do. So I just started working worked a couple odds and in his jobs, and and he said he was building a golf course. And I'm like, all right, I'll you know, I'll help you out. I need, you know, summer job or whatever.
So so we started, uh when they were constructing that grew it in and I just kind of fell in love with turf at that point, I mean, it just amazed me where it was and then what it went to, uh, as far as turf and greens and and so I just really got interested, really got intrigued by the profession, and just worked my tail off there. I stayed there for two or three years. I didn't have the title of the assistant, but that's pretty much what I was.
The superintendent left after three years and and they just asked me to take over. So I did. And during that time, I went back to school, did the Penn State Turf the online program, got my bachelor's degree. Uh. And then at the end of way eighth nine, when the recession started, Uh, we had just or the Chesapeake had just started building a housing development.
Boy.
Yeah, so think so the golf course started supporting everything and financially struggled. Uh. And and you could tell. I mean, you know, I could tell. So I just started looking,
you know, I got to find something, you know. But I had never been the assistant, you know, at a bigger club or you know, so I always thought that that may need, I may need to do something like that, just to see and I send it out resumes for assistance jobs and you know, the feedback was you don't have enough experience at other places or even though you were the heads superintendent course right right, and you know, and some people were like, you know, what are you doing?
Why are you you know, doing it this way? And I'm just like, I just want to I just want to get experienced. I want to know if I know what I think I know, you know, and if I could do it at a place like that. And the funny thing was is that I got two interviews in nine One was at Augusta Wow for a turf position
and the other was at Oakmont with John Zimmers. So I my family had had a nine month old at the time, but we drove out to Pittsburgh and I got to interview with John and drive Oakmont and look around. They were preparing for the twenty ten US Women's Open then, so that.
Probably that was probably like right when they were cutting down trees at night.
Yeah, yeah, I think it was. It was, yeah, during that But that was I mean, that was incredible. That was a fun trip. And then the Augusta interview was just on the phone, but I'd talked to their first assistant for a good hour hour and a half on the phone, who's basically the superintendent of the course, takes care of the maintenance. But uh, and then I I got an interview at Point of Woods as well with Ron Fox there. So there was a few people that
understood what I was trying to do. High end private club, yeah yeah.
But then the local courses.
Yeah, there's not much movement. It's just not much movement around here. But the but Blackthorn, John Quickstad, who's the superintendent Blackthorn, has been since it was constructed, you know, he he wanted, uh a good player on his team, so hungry, yeah, learn yeah, yeah, so I went there. It's a high end public what did they hosted the Semetric Tour, the Four Wins Tournament?
Did this fall in like what? Well, leaving Oakmont? Was that something that you're seriously considering moving?
Yeah?
For yeah, and I was this coincide around the same time? Yeah, and then a place where you didn't have to move right correct now?
I yeah, the housing market was pretty bad at that time, So I think considering all that, the job opened up at at Blackthorn, and I, you know, I took it.
Yeah, I mean I don't think a lot of people would question, right, you know it was.
Now it was an hour drive from my home each way, so which you know, to me is a long way. But you know that I had to consider that there was a time change Eastern time to Central time. That's so strange, is crazy? Yeah, it is, especially when you're working at four thirty or five in the morning. I live in Central Time and work in Eastern Time, so five o'clock start time at work is four o'clock at
my house. And when you had an hour drive, I mean, can you know I was leaving it waking up at two thirty in the morning and leaving it three just to get to work. So it it It became sort of an issue after a few years. Yeah, I was. My wife said I was a walking zombie just because Yeah, and I had two kids at that time then, so.
I had to make it hard on her too.
Yes, absolutely, the hours have to be tough with kids. Yeah, it is, it is, and that that's what made Culver so interesting. But that that was a challenge then, I mean it was, but the commute made a lot of it. I mean, if I if I didn't have to drive so far, it would have been better. I mean, we
weren't burning the midnight oil at Blackthorn. I mean it was it was a pretty typical, uh maintenance job, but uh, you know, the drive and the and the time change and things like that made it made it very difficult. And that's where Culver came in for me.
So going from somewhere with like heavy heavy play to hear where very light play. You know, what was the biggest kind of shock in terms of of your the way you looked at your job there and like how much it changed.
Well, obviously it changed a lot. I mean we're not we're not working around people a lot. But I don't know if it was the biggest shock or the or just a I don't know how to describe it, really just a relief from pressure. Not that I don't enjoy pressure of of performing, but having a golf course like this, being able to try certain things without you know, if if we have a poor area or something, it doesn't really affect whether people are going to come and play
or not. You know, it's just kind of a kind of my own laboratory of trying different things in terrific in agronomy. So there was nothing really shocking of the change, but more of a stress level went down, and and uh the commute time went way down and just uh, just a big relief. Really, sleep went up, sleep went up, and uh, you know my wife was got her husband back. I think, yeah, we're.
To talk about work life balance. I think I think I struggle with it personally. I think a lot of people. I think a lot of superintendents do because, like you, so early and right, the days are so long in the summer. Yes, yes, so you're you know, when you leave in the middle of the day, you're kind of leaving your job with well, stuff's still going on it, right. What how have you learned over the years to balance it better?
Uh? The biggest thing I've learned is, and it might be cliche now, but it's that it's just grass and whether you're here eight hours or sixteen hours, it's not going to make that much of a difference in my opinion. Now i'm here, I don't I'm not. I don't have a Greens committee breathing down my neck or or the four members that are upset about it, you know, all
over me. But to me now, now, work life balance is a struggle for a lot of people, for sure, And there's there's question on what what is that definition of balance? I mean, you know, or whether you're at home or work more or less. You know, I'm not sure where balance comes in, but you know, it's it's not the end of the world to leave after eight hours.
In my opinion, if you can't get done in eight or ten hours what you need to get done in a day, then you know you might need to find another area to work at because I just that's just that's just my opinion. Yeah, I think you make you can make it work and have a home life as well. I truly believe that. Now it may not be where
you're at. They may expect a little more, but I just think that and it comes with with I think it comes just with age and experience, and you know, you just you realize that if an area of a fairway dies that it you know, it's going to come back. It's all going to come back.
It's it's interesting what you said about kind of being your lab no Greens committee breathing down your neck. And I think a lot about architecture and golf architects when they get to build stuff uninhibited, you know, it tends to be a little bit a little bit more wild, you know, a little bit more bold like you see.
I think one that jumps to mind is Rob Collins became the architect and owner of Sweeten's Cove and he built some of the most audacious greens that we've seen in modern golf construction.
And absolutely, you.
Know, you can you can say, okay, well he didn't have an owner that he was appeasing, right, you know he as a superintendent, I don't have a greens committee that I'm appeasing. You know, you report to the academy, the university, and you know that not necessarily somebody that's really you know, day to day in the weeds on the grass, like and even club greens committees, right, a
greens chair is very, very involved in the grass. And where would you would you say that that's been an advantageous for you as a superintendent.
Well, definitely advantageous in that you can try things that you know if they fail, it's not you know, it's not going to really come back. You know, nobody's going to come and you know you're going to lose your job because this didn't this didn't work out this way
the way you thought. So being in an educational institution is an advantage as well, because you know, we're always trying to improve what we're doing here and trying different things and environmentally or however you know, historically history too, Yeah, yeah, definitely historically. I never, I hardly ever talk about Culver Golf Course without mentioning the Academy and tying the two together because the story both of them is just fantastic.
I mean, there's a lot of history and some history I don't know for sure, but I just the stories you hear and things that I've read while researching the golf course have been fascinating too. So it's, uh, you know, it lends itself to be more free in trying things as far as like widening the fairways or widening the approaches. I'm very fortunate, and I know this, so I try not to tell too many people about about the job. But I'm very fortunate that I can do those things,
and I understand a lot of people can't. And I often share things on Twitter that I know people can't try or do, or products that they you know, we tried to kill the poem on this fifth fairway this year. I know a lot of clubs can't do that, but I I share those things, hoping that you know, if others can see what it does and how it works, maybe they can sell it to their clubs, you know, things like that. So I try to I'll try to work with certain chemical companies or you know, I've offered
Purdue University. You know, if you want to try something in a real golf setting, you know, let me know, contact me. We'll give it a shot, you know. So I'm trying to trying to help out as much as I can. But I'm very fortunate that I can do that for sure.
What would be what would be next on your list? Say you get done with all the fairway expansions you really want to do in the next, say just two years, what do you have like a checklist that you're working down.
Yeah, I mean with the expansions, I'm trying to improve our fairways. The Hodgepodge has been problematic because of the amount of Poeano graphs that we have in our airways. The summer months, they struggle. They struggle a lot sometimes, So improving the desirable turf stands in our fairways is
kind of with the expansion is on the list. I mean, we're uh, as I mentioned we've we've tried a product that will kill Poeania in fairways, talked about adding a top dressing program to the fairways, trying to get more sand obviously on them. But that's kind of my next goal would be to get desirables, firm them up and and have them play the way they were meant to
be played. So and and you know, obviously those are those are running into our greens and surrounds now as well, So it's kind of all tied in together.
You've you've played a lot more golf this year than you had in years past, right, Yeah, what did that do to kind of from a professional standpoint, Well.
It's always good to play your course, because.
I remember when we met you hadn't played very much. Yeah, it'd been a long but twenty sixteen, Yeah, it.
Had been a long time at that point. And working at Blackthorn, I didn't get to play a lot obviously because of the commute and and and having having kids and family and you know, all those other obligations take takes away from being able to play. But I made a commitment to play more. I just wanted to see how our course played, and I enjoyed playing golf. I mean I've started playing when I was twelve or thirteen years old, so it's it's it's always uh, it's always
been there. It's just a time factor. And and you mentioned work life balance, and my wife was supportive of playing golf, you know, having time to myself and playing golf and enjoying the sport again. But it, you know, it you see different things than you would just walking the golf course for sure. You know, you see how things play, you can feel the ground, how you know where you might need to improve or remove something, or or you can see actually you know what things you've
done that are right. You know. I remember playing a whole two where we've mowed down the face of the front bunker there and I was my shot was short and left of the bunker, and I remember looking at that shot saying, I got to get it over that face or you know, the ball's coming back down on the bunker. So I mean that's that's where I think the intent of Langford was was you got to hit the shot right or you're coming back in the bunker.
So you know, it's seeing things like that you can say, okay, that's you know, I think we're doing that, right, because if I'm thinking about it, then then other golfers are going to think about that, you know, where to miss type of a shot.
Yeah, talk a little bit about maintaining lang for Moreau. I know, I was that Harrison Hills, which is another lane, and I ran into the superintendent and we were walked and talked for a little while, and he was telling me how difficult it was with this with the slopes, and just how much of a struggle and how how
frustrating it was really for him. And we're talking about, you know, two thousand and eighteen, you know, struggling, and yeah, you think about what what was it like maintaining in nineteen twenty twenty eight, right, you.
Know, right exactly, And you know it is difficult. It's difficult to find the right piece of equipment to do it if there is one.
And it's because of the steepness and.
The steepness of the angle of the slope and which which is another interesting thing is that that got me to thinking, uh, looking back on intent and I read Langford's book that he wrote the name of It's my Chicago Green Section thing.
Yeah, from nineteen fifteen.
Or nineteen fifteen. That's exactly right.
That's it was found by Craig Pratt.
Oh.
Really he founded in the Michigan State Turf Library Library. His wife was ganging or PhD or something, and he was He was like, honey, I need you to go into the archives and find them.
That's amazing.
He talks about it when we did.
That's just amazing.
So his wife has to go into the archives.
I need this book and find this book. Wow, that's a good one, yea, that you know, and great it is.
It's it's I mean, it's it's fantastic. One of the things that caught my eye while reading that was how he knew in this area or this area of the country Chicago around here, is that in the summertime, the clay soils get hard and they bake out, and and you know, I start thinking about these slopes around the greens, Well that that's what they would have baked out in the summertime here, and they would have been brown and hard as a rock, and the balls would have bounced,
you know, they would have diverted to where he wanted him to as far as the slopes, so, uh, maintaining them is a different story. Obviously we we uh nowadays don't want brown, dead grass on the slopes around greens. So what what got me thinking about expanding and mowing them shorter was was that philosophy that you wanted the ball to roll or bounce, so mowing it shorter became a priority. Now getting there has been interesting. We've yet
to figure it all out, but we're getting close. With the fly mowers, some of our Faaraway motors can can hug some of these banks. But they are difficult to maintain for sure. They're just so big. It's not only the angle, it's just the size of them. Yeah, And I remember hearing Richard ForSight, superintendent at Roll Melbourne, talk
about how their greens aren't really big. I mean they're they're a good size, but the bunkering and everything around them makes them seem bigger, which is true here because you could have a green side bunker shot, but it could be thirty yards or forty yards to just to get on top of the green. So that that's the difficult part to me in maintaining them, is that they're not only steep, but they're just large and it it
it presents a challenge for sure. And it's just you know, we've we, like I said, we've tried to you know, rotary mowers, push mowing, fly mowers, weed eating.
Which ones Which one worked the worst?
I think the push mowing was the worst because I remember about breaking my ankle trying to you know, trying to hold the slopes while pushing a you know, out front rotary mower.
Have you seen those like rumba like mowers?
Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't know, I don't know. Hopefully there's I think we found something with these with the fly mowers we're using that we can get down to you know, a half inch mowing height, which is I think about perfect for our slopes. It will it'll take balls where they need to go or where they're intended to go. And and so we just we just started doing that at the end of the year. So we'll see how it works out this spring.
So we'll get we'll get you out of here. We're uh, but you know, in terms of lang from a row. And obviously you know you said to me today, like there's one point when you were first got out here, you're like, whoa, this is different. What amazes you the most about what they did at this property.
Well, what's really amazing, and I think it's amazing that most people is how much earth they moved in nineteen twenty two with the equipment they had. You know, I've I've been looking for that photo of a steam shovel out here to to to be able to show you. But that I mean, it's just chi. Yeah, it could be there. It could be there. When they built the airport, I did read that they borrowed Culver's steam shovel to build the two runways, So I know there there's one
here somewhere. So I'm gonna I'm gonna dig deep in that.
I wonder if it's still here.
I don't know, I don't know very well, could be. And that's what you know, it's exciting about this, this direction I'm going is finding things like that to see, you know, maybe it's somewhere around here, but that you know, just the green pads that were built and how they were, how much they were built up. It just amazes me
that that they could do that then. Obviously easier nowadays, but you know, and I and I think that might lend itself to more Theodore Moreau what he was able to do and I don't know a lot about Langford after Moreau was passed on of of his work. You know, I don't know if it changed or I.
Think it is. It's much different before, Yeah, much more subdued before him and Moreau got together. And then that Harry Speed might have been involved too. Yeah, there's another There's just not enough information out there. I don't think anybody's you know, Dan Morris done a lot of research, but nobody's really dug into them, like the way that Donald Ross has been researched. Oh yeah, no doubt without Alistair McKenzie.
You know, yeah, without a doubt.
Definitely, because they were designing golf courses in places like Culver, Indiana, and not San Francisco or Right Peninsula.
Yeah, a big difference, difference work in Boston, exactly. Yeah, but they were they were really busy. Yes, for sure, we did a lot of work and uh, you know, unfortunately most of it's been changed or gone, but it's and it Sean totally will tell you the same thing that you just need to find out more about them, because the work they have done it's still here, is pretty impressive. For sure.
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's neat so We wish you the best on on your historical deep dive. I hope it, hope it doesn't lead to too much frustration that ends.
Yeah, we hope not too that's for sure. But I you'll know when I find something. Sure.
Yeah, everybody can follow you on on on Twitter, your handles.
MD vestly Yeah yeah.
And a good follow good lots of lots of information up there. Yeah.
Absolutely So we'll talk soon and thanks for coming on all right, Thank you, Andy, appreciate