I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in arid egg Friday Egg Friday, Friday, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today we are live from the Players Championship and we are joined by Steve Winslav, who's the vice president of the PGA Tours Design Services and Player Liaison.
Steve, welcome and.
Board, thank you. It's good to be here, good to be here with you.
Yeah, so big week for you, obviously with the changes that one of you know, America's most iconic and memorable golf courses. You know, the big changes are the twelfth hole, and then there's some other small subtle changes and you know, completely new greens, green surfaces. But first, I think a lot of people would love to hear a little bit about your background.
Sure Landscape Architecture, University of Georgia been here with the with the PGA Tour now for twenty years. Originally started with the tpc's development of the tPCS and still still work very actively with the tPCS, but have evolved more into PGA tour side and sanctioned events and working on golf course modifications, significant golf course modifications basically any PGA tour sanction venue and then new venue assessment as well.
So how did you get into the architecture world, like you know, was there a moment that said I want to I want to design golf courses?
And yeah, the moment was early on actually before I before I went to college, I was doing landscape art, was always working outside, working down in South Florida in tree farms and bedding plants, horticulture, landscape design, build and always felt though I wanted to get into bigger projects
who were doing more small small projects. I always wanted to get into larger scale sites at that same time as when I got introduced to the game of golf, sort of sort of late, but I got introduced to it at that point in time and started studying it more and realizing that it really tied into sort of the path that I was heading on. Once I did switch from aviation into ultimately into landscape architecture and work.
When I went to University Georgia, I went specifically to them and said this is what I wanted to try to emphasize on a golf course design. They helped me cater cater classes towards towards that program and then get out did the golf design industry at that point when I graduated ninety to sort of going through a smaller
downturn than than just that. We just went through and had a lot of recommendations just to go into golf courst construction and the guys I got that advice from it was very very influential advice and and today I respect that. And you know, the segment I remember to most was to be a good architect, you got to learn how to construct it and and and today I
still still feel feel very strongly about that. And so I got into golf cours construction and ultimately with the mindset of getting it into golf courst design and had the opportunity to work with some of the top architects in the world at the same time working with the tour once that he evolved being able to work with a player consultant. We always had a player as a consultant involved with the with the project, so worked as a liaison basically between the developer, the architect and the
player consultant. So I really had the opportunity to grasp a lot of different varieties from different architects and feedback from from a lot of great players into the role that it's evolved into today.
So curious as you've worked with all these players, like who would you say is kind of like the sharpest architectural player mind that maybe doesn't do you know, isn't known for doing.
Any architectural work like that.
You've come across where you've like been like, wow, you know, these these thoughts are really interesting.
They all had interesting aspects and they and they all got engaged in the in the project, the opportunity to work with Lanny Watkins and Myrtle Beach and Lanny was working with the FASIO group at that time, and it was really a dynamic relationship there to take Lanny's strategic mindset and the take that with the strategic and yet artful side of the of the FASIO design concept, blend that together. And that's really what you named me the most about how this how our processes have evolved into
the tPCS. He's really taking that blend and and putting it together and Lady was just one of one of many of some of the some some great players that have had the opportunity to work with and that has the role evolved and more so into the player liaison. It gives me the opportunity to really meet with all our players and and go over and have discussions with them about depending golf course modifications or you know, post post tournament comments on changes that have been made to
utilize that feedback into UH into the next project. However it comes about mm hmm.
I think that you know, there's some younger guys that are getting into the architecture earlier.
You know, you've got Zach Blair who's really into it.
And then you know George Speet's got the nine at the par three course at ut that's going in. So it's it's refreshing seas. You know, it's some younger guys getting into the I really.
Yeah, I just found out about I just read about Zach Blair. I haven't I haven't spoken to Zach yet, but I just read about his his interest in the little course that I think he's thinking about working on back home Utah. I think it was which I found very very unamoring the first time I've I've heard about that.
Yeah, you got you got to talk to him.
He's very passionate, he's got a lot of you know, good good ideas and.
Absolutely it's uh, he's he's a he's a friend.
Of the pod absolutely, and Jeff Ogilvie is also, I think a brilliant mind from a from a golf architect standpoint. Uh, Who's who's having the opportunity now to to begin expressing himself in the design world with his team. I think he's assembled a great team of of guys surrounding him as well and looking forward to seeing more of their work at some point.
Yeah.
Yeah, Mike Clayton, we had on He's A.
He's he's one of my one of my favorite favorite guys that talk.
How can you how can you not like Mike?
Yeah, that perfect segue with Mike Clayton is you know, talking about technology and you know, maybe that could be some of the impetus to the changes that at Sawgrass beyond the major one being twelve, but some distance lengthening. You know, when I first walked around it, I was thinking, Hey, this golf course, like you know, it's it's lengthy and it's being a more bonders. But the more I thought about it, it's like when it originally was designed, it didn't take driver out of anybody's hands.
So is that you know, some of the lengthening.
Efforts kind of where you know, putting driver back in play for the longer hitters.
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's an element that we that we look at, but not the emphasis. I mean the emphasis about the emphasis of this golf course in this tournament and really the elements of Pete Dye into the strategy of the golf course really is and I
think you hear it from the players. Is it it forces a player really to to be on beyond with basically all elements of the game, from driving to to their approach shot proximity to you know, their scrambling ability around the greens and putting obviously get in the hole. It's and it's yes, has has driver probably has driver been you know, taken away now as the technology has changed in certain golf holes, Sure it has, but we look at that and still say, though, how has the
golf hole changed? Has it changed significantly negatively due to that? And if it has, then we'll look at that further. If it hasn't, then we just still let let the golf hole play out the way it's been designed and the ways playing today versus you know, maybe the way it's playing thirty years ago. Yeah.
Yeah, it's I mean, it's a it's interesting and a lot of the die I think die gets such a bad rap, but there's so much strategy in die courses.
You know, a lot of people like to just say, like, oh, he's a penal architect, But I think the different in how much and you're in this role is that you know, how much different you know TPC Sawgress was built for professionals, so obviously you know, tighter fairways there could be strategy and tighter fairways as opposed to if it was a regular public like at you know, a public facility that was built for public play is built for it, so
you know, the shorter, the narrower fairways can lead to strategy.
You know, in terms of you know, like how when.
You work with professionals, how much different is it, you know, designing a golf course and making changes for pros rather than you know, thinking them first rather than public.
It's I mean, it's it's different. I mean a lot of architects don't they have a back te per se, but back to you at the respective club gets little use when in this world that that I live in, you know, it's all emphasis on the back to you. I can tell you how many times I make site visits and we start walking around with a group and we start looking at tea's and all of a sudden there's vistas or whatever you can't necessarily see because that tea hasn't really been been used a lot. So it
starts there. And uh, but yeah, I mean you look at Pete Dye and what Pete dies about. He's about angles, and the angles then are emphasized by a narrowing of the fairways, not necessarily from a horizontal standpoint. Yeah, to some of you, it is horizontal because there's a smaller percentage of whatever's there is really the effective zone to take advantage on your on your second shot. You know that if you stray off to a certain other side, it's going to give you an undesired line into the into
the green. And that's that's really some of the some of the basic strategy to him. So it's this was a tree line you know, this is a forested site per se, So he's used the trees, you know, in a similar manner as he used them at Harbor Town. Not as narrow and scale as Harbor Town it is, but there's some there's some you know similarities between between here and and Harbor Town and the use of the trees, and you know, you see some of the set up.
This year, we tried to emphasize a little bit more of the use of the trees by having less primary rough and having some cases no primary rough between between faaraway and groups of trees. For instance, side of one and right side of eleven. The right side of six, you'll see there's no primary rough now between fair away and pine stronger and groups of trees, to help try to utilize that in the ground contours, you know, to emphasize some of that strategy.
Yeah, Eleven's is like forty six yards wide that I mean, it's got some really good width. I mean, I grew up playing a really strategic Pete Die course in South Florida, and something I have learned over like you know, hundreds of rounds playing there was that you know, if you take that aggressive line and take on the risk your reward and you have a much but every notch you go away from the that that line he wants you to take on. Every notch you go away, that second shot becomes so much tougher.
But I think one of the unique things is that with designing.
For professional players, the ego and the mentality of like, if I have a clear shot in the fair way, like the shot it's right there, and I think I can hit it, but your margin for error just is so small.
And I think that's one.
Of the beauties of Stackgrass is that it's it's a constant, you know, kind of battle and getting you know, a professional to aim, you know, twenty yards left of the flag with when he's right in the middle of the fairway is a tough thing.
Yeah, it is. And that's and that's what they've learned about the nuances of this place. And I listened to some of the questions Q and A with some of our players about you know, some of the younger players come out here and playing this for the first time or second or third time, and how much of a chance did they have out here. There's a lot of
nuances to it. They come in with game obviously, but there's a lot of nuances to this golf course to be learned, you know, when whether they learn it the first go around or whether it takes them a few more go arounds to understand the nuances, they're definitely out there. You know, we tried to do something. You know, that's some of what we ultimately tried to do into the end of the readis onto the twelfth hole as well. There's a lot of what you just talked about.
So let's let's talk about twelve. It's the it's like the star of the show. So you took a you know, a hole they felt a lot of people felt was just kind of a you know, it was a lapse in the in the tournament and you you know, everybody loves these short driveable par fours and you've.
Turned it in.
It's got a lot of different yardages that can play and you know, they we'll put a we'll put some photos of the twelfth in the into the podcast bio. But you know, the narrow layup area if you're gonna lay up, and then a green that's got a lot of contour, a lot of different pins, and you know there's water down the left side of a bunk a waste like bunker down the left and then uh, there's
nothing good right if you bail. So tell tell us a little bit about, you know what, how you kind of went about, you know, building the hole.
Sure, it started several years ago, as we we always do, and we just we always evaluate as many aspects of the tournament as we can, and in this case here looking at the competitive aspect and looking at the twelfth hole, it's just from what it was, you know, thirty five years ago to what it is today. There isn't really a lot of thought and or intimidation per se on the t shot as there was originally. At the same time, we were looking for opportunities to increase the scoring mobility
some fan excitement earlier into the back nine sequence. We already have it, you know, sixteen seventeen eighteen, it's there. So we looked at for ways was there an opportunity earlier on the back nine, and we gravitated to the twelfth hole. So what you see today out there as a product of there's a lot more fan enhancement opportunities out there is there's a one hundred and eighty degree amphitheater now around the twelfth green. You know there's a
spectator now now right of twelve green. You have viewing now for the thirteenth hole as well. The tea box selection where we were put side of the tee took advantage of an existing spectator mound along the fourteenth hole on the right side of fourteen that really wasn't taking advantage of before. So now we've got plenty of viewing room behind the twelve tee. But strategically, as you said, it is a fairly narrow fairway. It's about a twenty
eight yard wide fairway. It slopes left to right, fairway bunker left, trees to the right, and that slope then is just magnified by a landform, a tribute to the old landform that was here. It used to be a large landform on the left side of the golf hole that was between the tea and the green. That landform went down that's now where the fairway bunker is. But we took that element and repositioned it on the right
side through the fairway. So as a as a person choosing to not go for the grain in two excuse me, a green on their drive is laying up. They're hitting roughly two and twenty yard tee shot. What we tried to do was narrow the fairway effectively by having really the emphasis of the of that layup be on the left half of the fairway. As the landform that I'm referring to is every yard you go right of center, the right a yard of the right part of the green basically becomes hidden.
Yep.
And so the further right your tee shot drifts on that layup, you could be totally obscured into the green and see no surface. You see flag or flagstick, but may not see any surface with water left and a green sloping right to left.
Yeah, that's I was walking it.
And if you if you bail right in the pins back right, I mean you've got no angle, You've got the tree that kind of on the right edge of the green, and then you and then you can't see anything. So it really, you know, it asks for the valiant a row of play. So so let's let's hear where where are you bailing?
If you if you're if you're a pro and and you you you're you need to bail, Like, what what's your play?
Well, that's what they're that's what they're still figuring out out there right now, you know, you know they're looking at the right side of the green. There's there's twelve yards right of the green of closely own area. It's got some contour to it. There's a pop bunker right of the green, two more further right of the green. But you know, the the guys are trying to figure
out that that nuance. You know, the the challenge that we try to place and is designing a green complex that's that can defend as much as possible a wedge from eighty to one hundred yards of the guy not going for it, but at the same time trying to make it receptive enough for player choosing to go for it with whether it's driver or a three wood or whatever club that that may be. That's that's really one
of the biggest challenges. And finding a balance between that those elements is we'll see where we see where we landed in that in that balance. But yeah, the the guys, guys don't want to be far right because far right there they're up on landforms up above the green and rough grass pitching to a green running away from them. So they know, you know, where's the miss, Well, there
is miss area to the right. They gotta be they gotta know that there's certain pins that they can probably get to, and there's certain pins are gonna be challenging to get to from that right hand side. Or do I stay short and just end up out try to stay up out in the approach and then try to pitch your chip into various whole locations, or would I go further back so money options for them to take on.
Uh So the left side falls off and you know if you if you're a little too far left, it's you're you're gonna probably get wet, which I think. You know, it's a short hole. You gotta it's got to have some spice to it. You know, there's got to be And uh, I'm curious, you know, if you know, like how much area in that fair away? Would you say you have to like what you know, if it's firm and fast, like what half of that fair away if you hit is there a distinct fall off point?
Yeah? I mean it. You know, the approach slopes right to left. There's a lot of right to left going on out there. There's a little portion in the green that does slope to the right to help to set up the back right hole location and even defend the front right hole location. But the right half of the approach, whatever that wid is, the right half of that approach is usable for a player hitting a draw in there.
It depends on the really depends on the trajectory of that draw and you know, and how much spin there is to it. But you gotta favor the right half of the approach. The more that ball drifts to the left, the more that shot should have more of a cut to it to try to hold the slope because it does start moving moving to the left. But part of the feedback that we got them going back to the water hazard from a minute, you know, Pete Die has
been consulted throughout this entire process. I've spent a lot of time with him here on property a few years ago when we were going through the initial conceptual phases and then a lot just through a lot of personal consultation with them and the keeping them updating where we are throughout this construction process. The first element really was the addition of the water hazard, and and that was
how does the water relate to the green? You know, does is it right on the green or or is it offset from the green, which right now we're seven eight yards offset left of the green. But then when we started engaging our our players, our player directors that are on our board and are some past champions, you know, we got some feedback about drop. You know, if a player enters the water hazard, well where they get where they where are you gonna be able to drop from them?
And so we oriented the water hazard as it as it moves towards the tee away from the green, the water hazard actually moves away from the line of play further to the left, thus facilitating the opportunity for a player to drop in a closer proximity to the green, assuming he just slightly drifted offline and entered entered the hazard closely. So then he drops in three and he can still four drops in two and has an opportunity to to still still get up and down for park.
And that was part of that thought process that we went into with this is uh you know, yeah, there's a penalty shot, but yet there's still an opportunity to to walk away with the four.
It's interesting the hero play is the is the cut. There's an ultimate hero play because of the dry.
To take it over to hazard a little bit. Yeah, it started towards the hazard.
The draw is safer, but it's that I mean, that's a harder shot to hit because.
Of the slope, and you know, you lose a lot.
But like the real hero play is is that high cut over the water.
It is full, it favors the bolt.
And our and our winds are typically out of the east, which is right to left on this golf hole here or so if they if they are hitting a cut and you know they're holding it up a little bit under the wind and hopefully it's landing software m hm.
So you know, I'd love to talk a little bit about how you guys have all this plethora of data in the shot link data, Like how much does that use when you guys are looking at at making alterations to you know here in any any TPC.
Well, it's a tremendous, absolutely tremendous asset and tremendous resource. Made a presentation several years ago back to the A S g C A about the use of shot link and still even in its early infancy stages, but it's a tremendous resource that gives us a you know, a snapshot stroke trails, uh, where the ball lands and stroke trails of how they get from point A to point B, probably their way around the golf course, scoring averages, proximity,
the whole averages, scrambling abilities. It's a it's a great it's a great resource and blessed to be able to have have that data. And and and I shared that data with the other architects when we get involved in other modifications UH anywhere, you know, we're hosting PJ Tour events. UH shared that data with them and it's been a great resource for them as well and a great learning tool for them. And yeah, it comes definitely coming to
play here. We studied, you know, all the other reachable part fours UH on tour and you know, looked at their dats and their data and stats and you know, and looked at the elements of them and try to figure out which ones we want to incorporate here in the twelfth hole.
Mm hmm. It's it's cool.
I think that's you know, that analytics of going into architecture is going to be a kind of a big wave to see. It'll be interesting with all these shot tracking apps that are coming up, how that data can eventually be used for even commonplay architecture.
Yeah, I mean, you're you're you're definitely seeing seeing the tour player use the data and there's so much analytics and mathematics now going into their thought process and players. You know, I think we're gonna use you know, go back to stats on the twelfth hole. Well okay, well you know I know what my stats are normally with this club selection from this distance, and so I'm like more comfortable with that, or you know, is it worthwhile to take on take on take on the risk with it?
But it really gives us, you know, tremendous resource that not a lot of people have have access to.
So I, you know, I want to You're you're a busy guy this week.
So I've got a couple of kind of quicker questions that I'm curious about.
So if if the tour was going to bring.
One kind of under the radar that not a lot of court people might know about course into the TPC stable and they said, you're picking it, what course would it be?
Put me on a spot like that. Oh if I can answer that one off the top of my head, do you got me on on on that question? I mean, there's there's obviously some some some great golf courses out there. From from an architectural standpoint that you know, all of us in the golf architecture world, you know, study, you know, some of the preferences that that that I have are some more of the you know, some of the influences that that I've had just personally are from the sand Belt.
A lot of time that I did spend with with Mike Layton that he he took me when when I first went out there and and studied the sand Belt golf courses. That's that's inspired me. So you know, I love Vellos, I love Kingston Heath, Royal Melbourne and uh yeah sure, you know, kings and Heath would probably be.
One of them.
Yeah, the World Cup out there this year, I mean that place, just the bunkering is.
Is phenomenal and I like it. I like both kins and Heath and Royal Melbourne. They're they're too totally contrasting golf courses with the scale of the of the of the properties and the scale of the golf holes within the properties. Kinks and Heaths more small compact, but yet still defends itself pretty well with the tour players of today. There are single digits. I think composite winning scores there.
Yeah, it's it's uh they it's it shows that distances and you know everything is uh but a.
Great golf courses. You know, we've hosted President's Cup at Roller Melbourne World Cup.
Another one going to the President's Cup, I mean the International President's Cup. Roster is like really stout the so uh You've been doing a lot of work in South Korea.
Rey for is it the c I m B.
Actually it's a it's a newtory event that will follow be the week after CIMB which is in Malaysia. This is in South Korea on the island of Jju on the southern end of the peninsula. It's the tournament will be called the c J Cup at Nine Bridges be contested at the Nine Bridges Golf Venue and Jju.
Wellen, So tell us a little bit about what we can expect from that course.
Currently, there have been been there since September working with their architect Dave Dale from Golf Plan on Get it Ready. It's a it's a beautiful place. Mount Holla is a volcano in the in the center of the center of this island, and this golf course is sighted up the side slopes of the volcano in some very sort of mellow sloping land. Dave categorizes the design of the golf course sort of a little bit of Scottish Highlands and it's
got that type of type of feel to it. It's up nineteen hundred feet in elevation, so there's some elevation to it. The climate really unique micro climate's been working there throughout the winter and it's been some pretty harsh environments up there, and head down to the airport down down at sea level and climate changes one hundred percent,
so that's net. It's it's a it's a beautiful golf course, beautiful setting, a lot of pot bunkers that we're right actually right now sort of reinforcing some of thement revetted walls actually with a durabunker synthetic turf product which is really neat to emphasize that element that they've chose to use in the design out there and and and really make them pop. So bunting wise be pretty dramatic, and it's it's neat. I think the players a players will like it. It's a it's a neat place to.
Go and primetime golf, so you'll absolute bit that's I love.
I love events that you get that prime time coverage. It's it's so much, so fun. So it'll be good time to showcase the course and your work there.
Will be good, you know. It's uh, we're really thankful for CJ. And then then their sponsorship a ten year agreement to play this event over there.
Uh huh So then uh, you know, Jacksonville, if you know you were taking sawgrass out for listeners, you know, where should they play in Jacksonville if they you know, if they're complimenting sagrass trip, where where are the gems outside here where you would be playing?
Honest with you, yeah, I haven't played a lot because of my traveling schedule around here, but I like, you know, there's some there's some neat variety of golf courses out here. You've got the World Golf Village golf courses both the Slammer and Squire and the Kingdom Bear, two totally unique golf course. Obviously, the King of Bears your one opportunity to play a collaboration between Nicholas and Palmer, especially now and with Palmer's passing, it's a that's a neat legacy.
And then you've got some old, you know, pretty neat tracks. Brentwood used to host the Jacksonville Jacksonville Open decades ago. Just some really neat, little little municipal tracks around that that are still out there as well.
Yeah, I think I'm going to try and sneak down to Hyde Park.
That was the other last one I was getting to say, a good Hide park. I haven't played yet. I've been here for twenty years and just haven't made my way over there. Yeah, come down, I will. Stanley Townson, Absolutely, there's some good stuff there that some hidden jewels, especially even as you get a little bit further south down the coast, there's some some neat hitten jewels like that.
So one of the things that we always do for our closing bit is overrated underrated. So I'm gonna give you a couple of things. Do you you say overrated or underrated?
All right?
So we're gonna say the impact of grain on putts from the PGA tour player perspective, Oh, it's undert underrated all right. We will go with pot bunkers.
From a PGA tour players perspective. They're very effective, So I would say.
Underrated, underrated. All right, we will go with.
Let's see, we'll say the British Isles courses, you know, the brit We'll say the Open, Championship rote of courses, like if you were doing a trip there, not PGA Tour.
You know, overrated, underrated.
It's all good. That's just all good stuff as well over there. Yeah, every one of them, I mean, and they all get such unique characteristics amongst them all, So I don't know how you can say it's over Yeah, it's on everybody's bucket list. It should be if it's not.
HU and then uh, then we'll we'll say with last question, one TPC course that people.
Should go see outside of Sawgrass.
One TPC course, Well, you know you've got I'd say you get a toss up between Scottsdale and San Antonio and two unique environments. And San Antonio gives you thirty six golf holds out there and two unique different types of golf courses that you can play in the in the same location. You got to Normandy Design, hosts of Valero Texas Open, and you got a Pete Die golf course there as well, just hosted the champions Store events and uh, just totally unique properties. Uh with the with
the San Antonio vegetation to it. You get normous courses sort of down along floodplains and creeks, and but yet has almost one hundred feet elevation change as you go down the routing and back up the routing. Peace Golf Course is sort of set on these on these ridge tops and routes out and it's got non returning nines. Just has these beautiful vistas of preservation lands surrounding as golf holes. Unique unique experience there.
So I'd go San Antonio hill country.
Hill country.
Absolutely, That's how I used to live in Austin.
I you know it, it's unbelievably you think of Texas, it's unbelievably hilly there.
It is. I worked in I worked in Dallas. I was with the a Y Bring for for a little while, and uh it's out there, and uh for some opportunity to get down to Austin and the whole country is like, wow, this is pretty neat. It's it's good, there's good stuff. There's a lot of good golfers.
Well yeah, yeah, I uh, well, we're looking forward to to seeing the changes in action, and you know, thanks for coming on, and and uh, we'll sure everybody will have their their opinions.
You know they will.
That's a guarantee.
Yea the good you know, Mackenzie used to say, if if somebody didn't hate it, you know, he wondered what he did wrong. That's true, I think if you read that oral like you read back on what happened in eighty two, like.
I mean, these guys so similar.
Think.
Yeah, I've been hearing a lot of buzz about you know, people are bad about the left side, but it's like what do you want to just.
Get a free birdie? Like you know, so all right, well, thanks so much for coming on.
Enjoyed it, Thanks for having me, all right
To confer another