Sean Martin

I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset.

When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

And when I find my ball in a brid egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Frida Bride Egg.

Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the.

Ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome back to another episode of the Friday Egg Podcast. Today we have a guest from the PGA Tour, Sean Martin, who is a special events editor. You will see a lot of his writing on PGA tour dot com. Comes up with a lot of really interesting stories and before that worked at Golf Week, so a longtime golf scribe.

Sean, thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me. I hope I can represent the Shield well and hopefully make us look good on the pod.

Yeah.

I mean compared to me, it's not very hard, so you don't have much competition. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you got into the golf business and your background.

Sure, I don't want to go.

Too far back, but my dad was in the publishing industry, which meant we had three books, so we read a time. My parents read a time, and actually I lived in Conneticuid, and then when we were when I was eleven and sixth grade, we moved to California in the middle of school year and I got a job Etcusney, not a goofy but just in the offices. But the kids that happened to meet were into golf. And I'm a huge advocate of like affordable golf, good junior program because that's

That's cool. So did you get your start out of college at Golf Week?

Sort of?

I worked for like six months Apiece at two one was a twice weekly newspaper. I was the one person sports department. Started that like my last semester of college and overlapped a little bit, and then got a job at the Daily News down in Los Angeles, which is like the It's kind of second to the La Times. I worked there for like six to eight months, and the newspaper industry is just.

Hard, you know.

I was living at home, I had no benefits, and luckily the Golf Week opportunity came a long later on then otherwise I might have gone back to school or something, because it's just tough sledding trying to make money, you know, in journalism especially, And yeah, I've been writing letters to Golf Week since college.

Is like, hey, I'd really love to intern there.

You know, for years, and when they finally hired. When they finally hired me, they told me that they'd been like for years in the office like this kid won't shut up and stop sending up emails. But luckily it paid off. But they would definitely give me a hard time about that.

Yeah, persistence pays off. You were there when they had the the awesome I'll never forget.

I used to always be.

Excited for the Golf Week when they had that really big publication, you know, when it was like I'm trying to think like maybe eighteen inches wide, and you know, they'd have pretty much every tournament score. It's it's interesting to see how the print industry, especially with Golf Weeks, changed completely. I mean that that company has taken a complete one eighty in terms of you know, their editorial, you know, views and you know what they cover.

Yeah, it's hard to see.

I mean a lot of my friends were the ones who were laid off this fall when they got bought out, and I'm glad to see they still do, you know, some of the college covers and stuff. But that was I mean when golf World went down first, uh we kind of you know, it wasn't celebrating of like all our competitors dead. It's like, you know, it's not it's not a good sign. And so uh yeah, Golf Week has changed a lot. I mean it used to be

So yeah, so curious, uh, given your background and just knowing all these names, who who's the guy that you're most surprised hasn't made it yet? Or is it didn't make it?

It's funny because you do, you know, it was great started off covering junior golf, so the name was back in the news a little bit after Rory's milling up hood. But like I started in six and that year, like Philip Francis killed junior golf, he won EID A coworker.

Then Eric Sodas from covered junior golf for me. He works the.

Titleist now, but he dubbed it like the Junior Grand Slam. He won the US Junior the role X Tournament of Champions, which is the A JGAS biggest event. I think he won one of his biggest boys events. Like he basically won the four biggest junior events that year. He won a bunch of junior world titles. He's been on like Golf Channel Jim Flake when he was like six, Like everything was pointed towards like Philip Franks.

Is making it, and so it was funny when Rory mentioned him on there. I mean, he's out of golf completely now.

But I think even making it is kind of a funny because what is making it. Like I've talked to Charles Howell before about and Charles is great. He's like, I'm the first person to admit to like I think I should have won more. I thought I would have won.

More than I had now.

But at the same time, like Charles' is thirty seven, he's gonna play a five hundreds tour events this year. He's never lost his car. But I know you mean, but I think like Patrick Cantlay, obviously a lot has happened in the last couple of years. Those stories came out when.

He came back to Pebble.

But Patrick Cantlay in twenty eleven, I think people forgotten, like he was on that Walking Up team with Jordan.

Speak and all those guys.

But Patrick Cantlay was the man on that team, and it was just kind of cool because he just.

He had an old school teacher. He just I don't know.

Patrick Cantlay was a different kind of prospect. Almost seemed like like we always talked about, the ball just seems really heavy on the face of his club, like with every shot from his putt to it's a full swing.

Peter Uline has had some injuries.

Uh.

He did the Noling up pod this week earlier and he's playing a little bit better again. But I think, you know, Peter was number one amateur.

In the world, won the UFAM, was a great player. But I look too.

I mean, I think Jamie Lovemark was so good in college. Uh, and he's on tour obviously.

But has one yet another back injury though, I mean, like love Mark, another got derailed both Can'tley and love Mark. I mean, those amateur careers were unbelievable. I think people, you know, not not the common you know, the everyday golf and even doesn't pay attention much to college an amateur golf. Love Mark and Cantley were out of this world. Good you line was another you know, just great amateur player.

Yeah, and I think those thing too.

I think some people will just extrapolate, like think, oh this kid is is good at twenty didn't even better at twenty five, And I think there's people who legitimately just play played the best scenes of their career at twenty and we're always cursed by the expectation. But I think too the biggest thing is mental. Like I've been doing this for a while now, so like you know, Sick, you know, Philip France is out there, because.

Like Ricky you line, those are the big names.

And so I've watched some players for the last ten years or so kind of make that just that move from junior to college to amateur to professional golf, and I just think, hey, there's a lot of luck you're not getting injured. I think injuries are huge, and especially risk injuries can be.

Very tough to come back from.

Back injuries are obviously very hard to come back from, so saying healthy is a big one. I think the mental thing of just you know, I mean Georgian speed obviously the amazing talent, and so much of that is mental, and it's just it's handling the pressure, handling expectations, but also just you only get so many opportunities when you turn pro and you just have to make the most of them and play well at the right time, and

Yeah, I think that's a great point.

I mean, you've got a guy like especially now the talent pool is is greater than ever, and you've got guys like you know, Jordan Niebrugie, who you know, all American, won the US PUBLNX top ten at the top ten.

In a major, and he didn't get through first stage of Q School.

I mean, it's it's crazy that that guy, you know, doesn't have status anywhere after you know, he finished in the top ten and the Open Championship. And you know, you've got other guys like Charlie Danielson who didn't get his card, Robbie Shelton, who's who's not playing on the

Yeah, I think, And there's just so many. I mean, you've always got your elite players, but there's just so many guys that there's just too many guys that are good enough to be on the tour than there are spots. You have, I mean, numbers one hundred to one thousand in the world or maybe five hundred, I don't know, are fairly comparable and especially on good weeks, can contend in events, and so you just I mean, it's not that they're interchangeable faces, but you just have so many players who are.

Capable and just so few spots that some guys obviously are going to miss out.

And I think too, it's hard when you're a young guy and you miss a Q school, especially if you do it a second year, third year, that pressure just starts to mount so high because all of a sudden, you're you know, you're twenty five. You look at Wes Bryant, he missed Q schools first four times, you know, good player was twenty six no status, had never played a PGA Tour or a web event in his first four years as a pro.

Obviously had the ability. Hasn't taken them long to show that, but.

It's just it's I think h school especially, it's just so hard when you start missing at that just because it can weigh on you, and it can it can be such so hard to deal with.

Yeah, I think.

I mean, Wes Bryan is an interesting story. I mean, I've I've heard that he started using this putting tool, but he went from you know, being a really good.

Putter to one of the best putters in the world. And it just shows you.

I think, you know, you have to have something that you're really, really really good at to be out there. I think you know that there's a lot of guys that are are really good at everything, but you have to have kind of almost a defining skill or just be extremely good at everything. I think, like Kevin Kissner is a guy that pops into my head that he's

And then you've got guys like Wes Bryant who putt putt great.

It's it's it's really an interesting thing when you look at guys making it young versus the guy that makes it at thirty.

Yeah, And I think it's versatility because just you're playing on different grasses and you've got to be able to hang in there on days that are windy. You've you know, you're playing different courses, different types of courses. I think the big thing too, and I think where some players maybe had better success in amateur golf than pro golf, I think it's that versatility. You know, the big amateur eventure all the summer for the most part, the weather's pretty good, you know.

If you're in college. I mean some college teams.

Travel nationally, but as budgets have kind of gotten smaller, they say more locally, and so if you're a California a cave, you'll compete mostly in California. But I think the biggest thing too, is just versus utility, being able to work your ball, which can kind of be kind of a lost art nowadays very much wants to kill it in it. I think that's really the big thing too,

Yeah, it's especially as a rookie you get they get so few chances. You know, you look at what's happened with the Fall series, as you know a lot of veterans have seeing how how many points are.

Available, and you see not a lot of stars are there.

So it's a it's a great chance for them to get an early jump on the on the FedEx Cup points. And you know, some of these kids, like you know, I know, like guy like Max Homa, who you know got his card, but you know, low on priority, like you know, you might not get you might be making your like third start of the year PGA Tour career at Pebble Beach. You know, it's just there aren't a lot of starts out there for these rookies, so they got to play well when they get the chance.

Yeah.

One of the biggest things that I remember Dustin Johnson's college coach ever said to me was one of the biggest things he did in his career was he finished I think like tenth at Sony and seventh somewhere else pretty quick after that. And so it was right at the top of the reshuffle. And that was back when Sony was the first fool field the end of the year. But I mean just set himself up right away and now he played the full year and that just made life so much.

Easier for that rookie year.

So again, playing well at the right time, I do think, you know, I think Doug Ferguson, the AP writer has been around for a really long time, is really smart, and I think he did say no one who is good enough has never actually made it.

You know, there's it is hard to do.

There's a lot of challenges, but I think the cream does rise eventually and for whatever reason, and sometimes it's not even visibly evident because two guys look the same, you know, with everything the same skill wise, but some guys are better and I think eventually they just they do, the cream rises and they kind of separate themselves from the others.

So, you know, with with cover and golf, what you know, kind of under the radar or young guy maybe a rookie or maybe he's not even at the tour level yet, are you kind of most excited to see make it and and think could be a big time star.

I'm excited to see what Aaron Wise does. The kid won NCBLA is last year at Oregon. Just kind of a kid who grew up as from all accounts, a public horse kid, you know, just kind of made it his own, didn't play a ton of a j g A. But you know, Casey Martin saw him and was big on him, and I'm excited to see what he does. He's gotten off to a pretty good start and played pretty well in his PGA Tour events.

He's gonna have to go the web. We're out this year.

I think played pretty well to start the year out there. But I think by all accounts he's a pretty promising player. Did really well in PJ tur Canada last years. I think the Wise is the one. I'm excited to see what Curtis luck does it. Augusta, the kid that won the US Amateur and the Age of Pacific, I played pretty well ins in pro events that he's gotten the starts from after winning the Amateur, and I think he's

Yeah, I think Wise is star in the making. You know that golf swing is beautiful. And then you look at what he did last summer and kind of in the spring from NCAA's through that, and I don't think he finished outside of the top ten in any or top fifteen and any PGA Tour Canada event, which is crazy. And uh, you know, I think he's uh. I think he's only twenty too, which is another thing.

You know, he's really young.

So yeah, ea, tern Perhapter his sophomore year and so, and by all accounts, I think he was doing like a pre law degree, so he's pursuing something pretty uh, academically heavy. He just kind of was like, Hey, I know, I want to do golf and this is going to take a lot of my time academically, and so I know I want to do golf. I'm commit to golf.

So yeah, he should go in the watch.

Yeah, it'll be interesting. I think bo Hostler as a as a chance to be really good too. He's got to he's got to get some status. But that he kind of got derailed by that shoulder injury, you know, and you know, like you said, he'll he'll make it there, but you know, he got a he had a tough start to his pro career.

Yeah, definitely ill timed inspired a rule change. I think it makes me think of I was listening to it theo Epstein a podcast with him in the Cubs GM and he was talking about how they did all this behavioral analysis of prospects before they decided to sign them or draft them.

And he was talking about one of the.

Hardest things for guys to deal with in making that transition, is you go from being the big fish in the little pond of amateur golf. You know, everyone loves you, the media loves you and love you. Everyone's telling you to me the next best thing to becoming the small fish in the big pond and awls when you.

Go to a tour event and you know, you might get the media.

Coverags that you pro to you that kind of stuff, but otherwise, you know, people don't really care that you're there, and so that for a lot of guys, that's just so jarring that it's hard to overcome that because they feed off that kind of, you know, big fish stature. So I thought that was really interesting too, And I think the same thing applies to golf definitely, because guys on the PGA Tour don't care what you did in amateur golf.

Because they probably did the exact same thing ten years ago or even better. So that's a hard part too of it.

Yeah, it's uh. I think we're also entering this era of parody in golf.

Everybody wants to drive home this elite storyline and who's the big four or five whatever it is. But the reality is is that like one through thirty one through forty on the PGA Tour at this point is is

Uh?

With all this young talent, the direction of the tour is going like what's going to be a good season in fifteen years?

Like two wins?

I think, I mean Justin's won three times this year, and I think that you know, when Justin won the third time, it's sony.

Shane Bacon tweeted out something like, you know, I think I think.

It's going into the final round with a large lead, And Shane tweeted like, it's crazy to think PJ Tour player the leader is already even locked up almost in January, if people hopped all over him.

If you don't know what's going.

To happen, there's majors we've played at YadA, YadA, and it's definitely true. Justin's gonna have to do probably more to win PJ Tour Player of the Year because if a guy wins once in a major, they'll probably favor the guy with a major if Justin doesn't win one himself. But three wins is three wins is a great season. Jason Day had three wins last year, Rory won twice. You know, Jordan WANs, I think a multi win season is a great year, especially if it's you know, Dustin

That's tough to be.

That's gonna be one of the best theaters in a long time, and people wanted him to repeat all of a sudden. So I'm definitely with you. I think there are just you know, there's only so many slots. Only one guy wins every week. Only ten guys are you know, some ties finish in the top ten, and there's just

Yeah, that's I mean, I'm looking at the world rankings right now and it's like if I told you that Matt Fitzpatrick one was going to win a major this year, you wouldn't be surprised, you know. But I feel like, you know, twenty years ago, if I told you whoever the thirtieth ranc player in the world was was going to win a Major, you'd be like, Oh, that's pretty surprising as a you know, and I think that's everybody's

More knowledge about your games.

I mean, you have kids now that a kid, a high school kid nowadays, could be on track man from you know, fourteen on, and he could, you know, depending on his parents' financial situation and level of convent, he could have a biomechanical specialist working with him. You could have you know, you'd be on a TPI. I think just with more money. And Kyle Porter wrote this really well, but anytime an industry has an influx of money. There's can be an influx of investment in that industry to

Club pro would beat me. Or I think he said he was even more than that.

Even like half the time, the club ro might beat me if I had a bad day and the club row had a good day.

That's not happening.

Nowadays, you take Jason Day out to a club, you can take him out to the guy who want one the Club Pro National Championships this year, that guy's not touching Jason Daye. That guy's five shots at least behind him.

I disagree. I think I think.

If Day doesn't play his best, that guy that I mean, the guy that won the Club Pro Championship, that guy's a stick and probably was a guy that just didn't have the breaks go right when he tried to play pro golf. I mean like that guy is a is probably a web dot com level player. You know, a guy that went is the Club Pro Championship. I mean, if it's just the random local pro, I would agree, But you know that that Club Pro Championship is is No,

No, that might have been overstated. Maybe five trokes, that's twenty strokes tournament.

That's a lot.

I did pull up the guy who went to laste with Rich Barbarian. I interviewed him at Chambers of that US Open. Actually for a story, I always like to do the story on just the random guys who qualifying, what that week is like. He's played four two events this season based on the exemption he got for winning winning the club.

He's missed three cuts.

Now granted, one was the US Open, one was the PGA T sixty six of pel Beach.

And missed the cut of Genesis.

So five shots might have been a little much. I'll accept that, but at this point being just the point of the quote is that the gap between you know, your club pro to your top level player is much larger than it was Jack's day.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree with that.

It's the best players in the world are just unbelievably talented. I mean, anybody that even as has status on web dot Com is unbelievably talented.

How close do you.

Think the web dot Com Tour is to the European Tour, you know, outside of their big stars. I I think about this a lot. Is like, you know, how close is the web dot Com Tour to being the second best tour on in in the world.

You're gonna get me, get me in trouble here. We've already been down this road. I think what two and eight or so, I think, I don't I don't know about that one. I think that I mean the probably that when you say European Tour, there's a wide disparity in you know, you're talking Abu Dhabi, Are you talking the Madeira Islands open. I think the web is strong. It's full of guys who have played on the PGA Tour,

I think it is true. That's not a knock on the Web. I think that's just the fact of the matter.

There are still some European and I think you're seeing little bit more European players staying there instead of moving to Orlando. So I think the Web is strong. It's definitely is strong. But the European Tour I think is still the European Tour.

And deserves some Yeah.

I didn't mean in terms of like the stars. I'm talking more of your seventy five to one twenty five guys, right, and I.

Think those are I would say that's pretty comparable.

Definitely, Yeah, it's I think it's close across the board too.

I think, you know, is what's webs one through fifty versus the tours one twenty five through Era one. You know, let's say seventy five through one twenty five.

Yeah, and that's one of the great debates.

I think that was actually one of the things they thought would be cool about the web dot Com Tour finals, is you throw those guys in the mix against each other, and I would love I'm not torn to do it, but I would love like Mark Rody to.

Take those numbers. And you know, you've got.

Three years now, I think of history there four years, and so you can use that in a way, I think to kind of answer that question or at least see what's the difference is. I think now that was one of the fun parts of the Web dot Com Tour Finals because you could do that.

MM.

So with you getting to cover golf for a long time, and what are some of your favorite courses that the tour goes to every year? You know, for whatever reasons, if it's you know, the leader boards or you know what have you kind of noticed with courses and the U and the leader boards that come from them.

Yeah, I think I love Riviera. I mean obviously just played there, but I think it's just so it's such a classic place and it's such an easy there's a lot of courses that are tough walks. Just there's these big, open, modern courses through housing development, Riviera is awesome and just that you can it's just all right there in that canyon and it's such a cool little walk it's a classic place and it does produce a good leaderboard. I

Just because I'm not gonna.

Get into the whole Saturday thing again, I think I'll leave that to tront except Trona as a follow up to kind of cleaned up my mess and tie in by loose ends. But pedal on Sunday, I think just with those views is is always awesome. I think it's just I think the nice thing that's been being able to go to courses. I think when you're actually able to walk a course and see how it flows and just kind of put everything in context of where everything is.

It's so different than television.

It you know, TV, it's almost like eighteen separate.

Corridors that have no relation to each other.

It's like almost like eighteen different studios or sound stages where action happens. It's hard to tie them all together. I was thinking about that we were at Sawgraph the other day, just playing the golf course and there's no one around, and like you just forget that it's just a golf course versus like a place we have tournaments. But I think that's always been the coolest part. I'm trying to go down the schedule and give you some good ones. I think Vaalaspar obviously is very popular for

Definitely, Yeah, it's I think obviously riv and Pebble are in their own stratosphere and everything I've heard about Monterey Peninsula, but I feel like, you know, the.

Copper Head course.

I think there's it's interesting how the tour has gotten in the golf courses because you know, there's this adage that length is what they need to make things tougher.

I almost disagree with it.

I think with the what happened with a lot of these modern courses that were built for tour events is that they promote robot golf, where you know, it's hit it far and hit it in the fairway and hit it close, versus a place like Riviera, where it's more about you know, I don't think this year was a great representation because of how soft it was, but it's more about being hitting it on a particular side of a fairway on a given day to access a certain pin because of the way the course is built, and

And I think that's that's the kind of trend the tour needs to go to get a little bit more diversity on the leader board.

And I think that's what we've seen this year, is that a lot of these places lack the strategic factor and if it's about just hitting it far and straight, these young guys are gonna are gonna win a lot because that's what they've been trained to do and since you know, with the track man era and technology, No, definitely, I.

Think part of it too.

I think a lot of the classic older clubs don't want to host a tour event.

There's so much that it's involved with doing it.

Opening a golf course for a week, you know, changing the agronomy of the golf course, getting it set up for a tour event, and then also just the room. It's not the same as a major, but you need the room for hospitality and all other stuff. You have to be okay with forty thousand people trouncing your golf course for a week and having it be closed for a week before that, And so I think that's part

Guys can just recover by hitting a moonshot eight on.

It's gonna stop when it hits the green, and so I think that's part of it too. It's just that technology has taken the strategy out of a lot of even great golf courses, and I think too just you know, maybe getting them firmer and faster.

As the answer.

Obviously, whether sometimes it is different, but I definitely think firm and fast.

Brings strategy into it as well.

Until any time you can get that going. I don't know how much control or how much the tour has a saying that, you know, I don't know if people want fifteen under winning. I always kind of like eight to ten. But you know, maybe getting golf courses firmer and faster would do the trick a little bit.

Yeah, I think firm and fast golf is the ultimate defense, you know, with these guys. If it's soft, it's just going to be a birdie fest. But you know, if it rains and then it completely changes the dynamic of the golf course. You look at a lot of guys, like you know, they feast on you know, soft golf courses. You can look at their career and most of their wins come when there's a lot of rain. And then you look at, you know, when courses play firm and fast,

I mean, obviously twelve it's gonna be the big story, and twelve is an interesting hole. It's im I honestly have no idea how it's going to play. Part of me could see guys kind of tearing it up and it becoming.

Almost too easy.

Part of me could see it being too difficult and it might need to be softened with some spots. A lot of obviously it's going to do with kind of the firmness of it. But twelves can be very interesting to watch and get a lot of focus.

But even like a lot of the holes that border kind of that pine straw area.

I mean they've taken almost all the rough out. There's a little maybe ten foot five foot water strip of roughs, and now key shots can bound into the pine straw, so you'll.

Have more guys getting out of pine straw.

On like eleven, the par five and some other places they've taken out ross and put in just shade theirries partly, Like Sover eleven, for example, there's water behind the green, and the hope is that now that rough has gone, if it's firm and a guy you know, hits towards the left side, away from the bunker, away from the water, that that ball can bound through into the back water and make you think more on the second shot at

It was like a dirt mound between them, and now they've made one large lake.

And if you didn't know what to look like before, you wouldn't know how cool it looks now, it looks really cool. There are two kind of holes that don't get a lot of atension, But I think the idea was that hopefully that change would get some more attentions for them. But I mean the big hole sixteen seventeen eighteen are pretty much the same, but just a lot of cool, cool, subtle things that hopefully will add some more excitement.

Yeah, it's uh, you know, it might not be noticeable on TV, but if it changes the way the guys play the hole, I mean that's that's a big, big change. You know, these little changes can make big impacts on the tournament and you know who wins.

Yeah.

My dream scenario is eleven is one of those places where they've got pin straw on the right and it's took a rough out and I'm curious to see.

But I'm hoping that leads to.

Us seeing guys going for that green which has a bunker running all down the right side of the of the green and then water before that that I'm.

Hoping we're seeing guys trying to hit shot out of the pines.

Going for eleven into that kind of stuff. So hopefully it produces those kinds of shots.

Yeah, it's uh, you know, speaking of a course that you know has kind of wall the wall fair Away and Pine Stride, and I know both of us have played blue Jack. I wanted to get your quick thoughts on what you thought of Tiger Woods as an architect.

I just I mean, first and foremost, I just love the whole I hate the word vibe, but I love the whole vibe of the place. It's a very you know, it's an expensive club to join. It's a it's a very well healed membership. But you would have no idea going there. You know, we played, We played in carts, which wasn't my first preference, but you know, we played with the kid literally played barefoot because he was just he likes to play that way, just kind of hang out.

You know, good food.

Kind of it's just so they've got the target on the drive range and can try to hit pun shot that. I mean, just it's a it's a great club with a great golf course, but they've got the little nine hole pitch and put course too, Like we.

Played that after we played eighteen. Just that whole it's so relaxed. One of the guys had his shirt on toped.

It wasn't a big deal, you know, it's just I mean, even public courses I think can apply that to themselves. They might not have the quality of golf course. Tigers not gonna build one for them, But that was such a it was so refreshing to just kind of come and relax and you didn't have to worry.

Like, oh, I have my hat on? Should I take it off? Can I reave it on?

Can we just change our shoes in the parking lot? Or is that gonna get it kicked out? What if I checked Twitter when I'm you know, in the third fairway? That kind of it's just it was so nice and relaxing that made it really fun. And then you've got a golf course that kind of like you said, wal the wall fairways, it's relaxing to play. It's you know, you're not looking for balls. I was reading Alison McKenzie's

Yeah, it's a place that you just kind of want to hang out at, which is you know what golf needs more of, you know, place that you really want to go, and whether it's just sit on the range and hit balls at that target.

They have music playing at the range.

But then the golf course, I thought, you know, it's great, you know you I don't think we spent any time looking for golf balls.

And you know, I think he did what he did was really interesting.

I think the more I thought about it, the more bullish I am as on Tiger as a designer, just be because I think about his playing career and you know, the guy was the ultimate tactician. He knew exactly where he wanted to hit the ball, and then he also knew if I'm gonna miss, I need to miss it here.

And I think he can take that knowledge and apply it to golf courses so well.

I felt like when I looked at the fairway, there was a bunker right where I really wanted to hit the ball every time, and you know there's only forty bunkers on the golf course, and that you know it.

He did such a nice job with like the subtle.

Subtleties where you have these you know, you have uneven lies in the fairway, which you know give the expert player kind of fits. It makes you uncomfortable because you're hitting you know, choked down wedges off of side hill lives into you know, little pins. But you know, for the average golfer, they're they're in the fairway, they just feel like, you know, they they're doing great because they have a shot at the green every hole. You know.

Yeah, I think uneven lies and you don't see it on TV because TV just flattens everything out. But I think uneven lies are just such an awesome challenge. I think I texted you after I played TV T but like we played sixteen, the par five and there's water on the right, you've got the spectator mountains in the left, but basically see that huge lake on the right and all you and you've got to tree on the left side.

Like I just don't know the guts to do that.

So I tried to hit a cut off a ball above my feet and of course the keel grabs and it goes left them kind of over in the rock with no shot because it's behind the bunker. And I mean, I just chip on and make a simple five. But like just you'll never see that on TV. But that's such a cool thing. And then like you said, like the ten handicapper, he's just pumps, he's in the fairway

Jack is amazing. But another conversation.

Yeah, the the whole conversations were quite spectacular.

I mean the towels at the turn. I mean it's a cool spot.

I might dive in and write about five thousand words on it this afternoon. So this could get get me warmed up for that. So if you, you know, changing kind of gears back, if you were a say a common fan, like what what are your five tour events that you would recommend or a couple of tour events. If I was going to travel to go see the tour somewhere, where would you say you should go here?

Sure, I mean I definitely okay so that I say, got the one and open En Championship. But I mean I think, you know, playing to Hughes for being a shill, But I do think the players is really cool. It's just I mean the golf course was built for spectators. Uh, he's got the big mounds. It's designed in like these little kind of hubs, so you can basically see a

In a twosome, and.

So I think watching watching match play, I think is always just kind of fun. I've only been to the Nelson min A Colonial with Dallas and Fort Work turnout definitely if you want to see some great architecture, which I'm sure some people listening to do. I think Greenbrier is a great one. Tough to get to, good luck with that, but Greenbrier and also Windham Over in Greenboro, I think that's another. And you're talking about golf, courses

Association still runs it and so they just they.

Love that advantage. It's really well done. But I'd say those are up there. I mean, it's hard for me. I'm more I'm just saying some people want to go to big, browdy events, so they got to take seen aches in Honda and Dallas. I'm That's not my scene per se. So I'm more of a maybe you know, like Tory Pines just to go and just hang out and watch or Riviera for that reason. I think are great ones to watch. But I mean, obviously you got to take Phoenix if you're looking for just Zanian.

I think, you know, I think the New Orleans has a chance with this new format to be like an awesome because, like you talk about things to do outside of you know, watching golf, that place is you know, you've got great food, great nightlife. There's a cool little golf course that you could stay in stay down in the French Quarter and take the trolley out to It's I think, yeah.

I I didn't even realize.

I went there last fall with my fiance and a couple another couple, and we went just to walk an Audubon Park and somebody told me about it like a long time ago, and then all of a sudden, I just saw this golf course and I was looking at it and I was like, wow, it looks pretty decent. Then sure enough, like I'm looking in the Confidential Guy Doaks book and it's one of the gourmet choices.

So it's a place if I'm.

Not mistaken, isn't it kind of like Winter Bark. It's like really sure, it's like five thousand yards or something. But they just put a bunch of money in when we did it to kind of, yeah, like with Winter Park, to make it a fun little challenge.

It's a par sixty two. It's got a cool story. It was actually the.

It was built for the World Fair in like eighteen ninety or something back then. Yeah, and and it's been around forever, but it, you know, it looks really interesting and cool.

I mean, Winter Park is so so awesome. Those these types of places.

Where are so important to I mean, you said it, and I grew up playing at a munique golf course, Like I mean, like you got to have places where these kids can play if you want, you know, the future of golf to be healthy. And then and the places need to be interesting, cool little places that you want to spend all day at.

Definitely, And I mean I grew up. I mean the golfers I grew up at. It was five thousand yards long, but like like attracted such an audience or such a group of people, like I mean Chris Como, who teaches Tiger worked in the pro shop when I work in the carbarn. Chris Danbreen, who was playing on the Buy dot Com Tour now coaches USC one of the best teams in the country, was getting lessons there.

I think.

I mean that was our home course from my high school team. And I think three of us played golf in Division one and another kid could have but just had no interest, but he had offers. And I mean playing a five thousand junkie I mean it's not junkie, but five thousand yards golf course did obviously not a real test. And then I mean I played Winter Park

Yeah, I spent I just got to play a nine at Winter Park, but I want to go back and like I want to play a couple of different loops of it and do like different things like where I only I only play with like a seven iron or less, just to see because then I think, all of a sudden, you have these longer shots in the and this renovation was great what they did around on and around the greens.

Yeah, I think, or even just take out the even numbered irons or numbered irons in your bag so that you you know, have to create shots things like that or just those are I mean those are hard to do because I think anone's so score upset, but I think that definitely, especially trying to get better, I think

So yeah, I agree, it's there's uh, it's it all goes back to why every round needs to be documented for your handicap. It is there's all kinds of issues in the game, but I see a lot of them stem from one organization. So the let's get into a few kind of Twitter questions we got here, So this one sounds like kind of an inside joke here, and I'd love to hear the backstory behind it. Ask him about the state of the game since last year's Dominate at Uncle Remus.

Sure.

So, DJ Baiowski and myself, we've become pretty good friends with the Guthries, Zach and Luke. Luke obviously plays on web dot com, which we were playing.

On the PJA Tour for a few years. Zach is his older brother.

And his caddie, and it was the assistant coach at Illinois, which is where I first met him with assistant coach Illinois when Zach or when Luke was there. Uh, they've moved down to Jacksonville, both of them, and we've just become pretty good friends over the years. And so I was in DJ and I were both in Zach's wedding in November and Luke got Mary in December. If they did a joint bachelor party to up to Lake of Coney, which is where Reynold's plantation is.

Served.

Bably, like ten of Us and Zak and Luke grew up at public golf courses in Quincy, Illinois, so they always loved kind of We played this place, Jacksonville Beach Golf Club, which is golf course which is literally like it cost fifteen dollars on weekends, but we take we'll play with them because they just it takes them back

Remus was like this.

It sounded like basically it was one of those old cartoon characters. It's probably wouldn't be acceptable nowadays, but you're in the Sticks of Georgia, and I think the author was from the town.

And so there's like a museum for it.

I don't know, but it's this nine hole golf course so you can play twice from two sets.

Of tea it's like sixty three hundred yards.

I think it was like ten bucks, Like we were the only people out there. We just showed up the protops in the house and like, I don't know, So we made it Ryder Cup style Zach's groomsman versus Luke's and we did matches. And I don't play a whole lot anymore. And I mean I played in college that was fourteen years ago, so I'm like a five now. I usually find it by like sifting hole. But we had a baby, so that doesn't help either. But I just I think we were having fun and fooling around.

We were supposed to be pretty close, and so.

We played it from nine kind of short that part fives are you know, reachable and stuff, And I think I shoot like two under and I'm like five up, and so we're like, well, I'm just gonna start like trying a little bit more, and I ended.

Up shooting sixty eight.

Uh it's that uncle Remis and beating the guy like I think it was like nine and seven Tiger Woods and Stephen named him and so it was just this like just beginning his inside joke because they go, I can't I don't even I can't do the golf course justice it was, it was amazing, but yeah, it's just a joke there. I think I think Luke shots sixty five or something. Fortunately, so I didn't beat Luke. But uh, it's just we we have a thing. We let's love

I think they're fun.

Because you can play in a T shirt, you know, and basketball shorts.

Do you want things like that?

So I think I think that's where it comes from. And it's just funny that.

I think. The one thing we love about.

Luc and Zach is like, I mean, they can play TPC if they want, but they love coming out to like ten dollar golf courses and playing these places with us.

So yeah, that's that's awesome. You know.

It's the uh some of the best golf courses is that you know, people get so obsessed with conditioning and a mac, but you can find these like gems everywhere.

Where.

You can tell like if it had a big budget, that it would be a really really cool place to play golf.

But you know it might not be in the best shape, but the bones are all there.

Yeah, And I think right now, all I look for and I think DJ is kind of the same. If it's affordable and it's pretty quick, that's I mean. I care way more about that than the niceness of the golf course.

Now.

Granted, some nice courses are quick because a lot of people out there because they're exclusive. But I just want to play fast and cheap right now, So that was perfect for that.

Uncle Remus just us a gem.

Check it out, maybe maybe linked to it in the newsletter or something. Steel can see it. It's it's pretty interesting.

I'm I'm gonna google it. I'm sure we got downe with us. So Ryan Ann wants to wants to know what's the best place that you've eaten ad on your on all your travels.

Best place, Uh just probably appeal to a lot of people.

But last week got Hondo. We sound like a really.

Good vegan place. And I'm not vegan, but I think because there's you can't just rely on neat to make it taste good. You have to use a lot of flavors and make it very flavorful. So I'm all about the vegan restaurants. So we actually this placed Christopher's Kitchen at Honda last week was amazing.

Man, I don't.

Remember names specifically. I love Tory Pines. Just toy Pine is up on the cliffs, obviously, and kind of you see a little bit of a town behind that third hole, the downhill part three called La Joya Cove.

That was probably my favorite place to visit on tour.

My wife and I stayed there for Tory Pines and it's just you can walk to a bunch of different places. They got the ocean's right there, and they've all.

These sea lions, like dozens of them, just.

Barking and whatnot, and a lot of cool, little, funky little California places. That place is up there, I think. I don't know about eating. My favorite place to stay during the tour year is in the La Joya Cove. It's a place called La Joya in they call it European style, which just means the rooms are really small, but it's awesome. It's very affordable for where.

You are, and it's such a cool location by the ocean.

Yeah, it's that's as I look at my window like a gray, dreary Chicago day and think about that place.

I wonder what the hell I'm doing here.

I have a photo on my Instagram. The place is literally like one hundred and ten bucks a night, and I have a photo my Instagram. You can see the ocean from the balcony of the room. So it's like the room is small, it's not fancy.

But you get a real key for the room too, which is awesome.

It's not some like plastic card. It's like a legitimate key, which you don't get a lot of those anymore.

No, No, it's uh, that's a that's a good spot to hang out though, La hoya say I'm this Uh, I'm miss California. I lived there in another life and I gotta go back there. So let's get you out on uh this on some kind of quick hitter questions. Uh, we'll start a favorite architect, I don't know, the.

Beginning, kind of a beginner Parks extra guy. Uh, I'm gonna go Seth Rainer because I love the look. It's just so you can just see you can tell that's the step main of course, and just the geometry of it everything, the sharp edges and just kind of the like it just looks old school before they had the equipment to make like crazy greens, like okay, I have a pretty square green here. Those kinds of things are sharp edges. Going to bunkers. I love flat bunkers with

I think you're playing to your audience. I'm a huge seth right now.

No, I'm hopefully zactly listening.

You know, we can talk about it, but uh, And I like, I think Pete Dye gets a bad rap and I think he might have gotten maybe he got cranky in his old age.

I don't know.

But like, to me, TPC like TVC is.

Part amusement park.

They give tours the clubhouse, and people just want to go out and see seventeen and go out on a cart ride and see it. But like there's a lot of subtlety to that golf course. And you know, growing up where I've grown up, like, I'm not used to playing a nice golf course where every time you play it you find out something new. I'm used to playing sixty five hundred yard public courses that there's really.

No strategy to them, per se they're just kind of there.

So I've loved leading a lot about Pete Dye and what he's trying to do, and then just playing stadium a fair amount, and each time you play, it's just kind of seeing little things like I talked about with the undulation in the fair way and just those little, kind of subtle things. Everyone thinks he's a guy with a bunch of water hazards and bulkheads and it's.

Not really that.

Yeah, I think he's like the most underappreciated architecture. Everybody likes to like rail on him for these penals designs, but like he was the guy that like changed the whole industry. You look at the you know, dope and studied arm Bill Kohor studied under him. But Die was

He got.

You know, he had a lot of projects where like PGA West, he was told to build the hardest golf course he possibly could, So you know that's not really.

Like you, you're an architecture only.

Architect only has so much rain over a project, you know, especially then Yeah.

And I would love to play some more Mackenzie. If anyone listening get me on Tiper's point, I'll gladly take that plain Augusta. But just reading Spirit of Saint Andrew's like his line that the bet hazard is put exactly where a good player intends to hit it, basically kind of talking about bunkers in the middle of wide fairways. I love that move because it is such a Most people probably hate it because obviously you piped down the

And that's what I'm saying with like Robot Golf, you know, like these type faraways, it's just it's hit the fairway if there's water on both sides. These two guys, it's just like, oh, I just have to hit it straight. But you put a fairway or a bunker in the middle of the fairway, all of a sudden they have to decide if they want to hit it left or right, and just putting something that another factor in their mind where they have to make another decision is a spectacular architecture.

Yeah, I mean Russia Canyon opened about fifteen minutes from where I lived when I was in pri my junior year of high school, and.

We played it a couple of times.

I think we were just too stupid to know what it was, and so it was like thirty five bucks and it's like wide open. You're like, oh, on this golf course. Is the fairways one hundred yards?

Wives? This is so stupid.

But now I look back and I'm like, the second hole was two fairways joined together, obie on the left, a little pop bunker on what.

Would be the right side of the fairway.

And but if you miss right now you've got a long iron over bunker and the green runs away from you. If you challenge the ob you can just you've got open grass in front of the green.

You can run the.

Shot up and then you're hitting obviously into the green that goes back to front, and it's like, now, looking back at it fifteen years later, I'm like, oh, you've got to challenge the left side, you know, the obi to have a good angle. Back then, we were just like this is so stupid. I could hit it anywhere

And I don't know.

I think that I wish I wish I could go back to Rustic Canyon and play it now.

I would probably love it.

Back then I just totally was like, oh, this is just so pointless. But yeah, so I think that's why. I think that's why architecture and a knowledge of it, at least just even a basic one, makes golf so much better.

And so much more fun.

Yeah, it takes It's another thing that takes score out of the out of play, like you know, you don't if you're if you're out there to experience the golf course. You know, if you have a bad day or a good day, it doesn't really affect your overall experience.

But that's the one thing I'm still trying to learn and how to like experience the golf course. I used to love covering amateur golf because we'd go to US Amateur on a great golf course and you can just walk down the middle of the fairway and watch people play, and so you've got a great idea of the golf course. I think when I play, I still get to my own game centric and I'm just looking at the shot that I've got instead of the whole golf course.

I think you just got to look around, you know, just try and be more observant.

I get. I get the boost of I take like three thousand pictures, so I walk like three golf courses when I play, and you know, go and kind of

Job, what would it be in the golf industry. You could have you could be a team player, you could be an architect, you could be you could be whatever you want in the golf industry. Which which job would you.

I mean, it's TV announcer, account I don't know what that media, that's you could say.

I'd have my job too. You know, your your own job.

I like your job. I think I like that. I mean your you're your own boss.

You're probably just sitting there in your bosses right now. I don't want to picture hopefully not.

But like I got thrusted today, okay, good, but I think.

I wouldn't want to play too stressful too much travel. I definitely want to be an architect, so much that goes into that beyond just holes. I mean, if I had the attitude to be an architect, sure, I'd love being architect. But taking my current skill set now that will work. But I think I think what you're doing is and I'm not kissing you about here, but I think what you're doing is great. Just the being your own boss, creating something. I think I would probably if

They're gonna pay you a big advance.

You have to have a big enough ego where all the hours are worth it just have your name on a book, or you just have to be super, super super passionate about it.

It's the the one priority in your life. And I'm not famous.

I don't think my ego is big enough, and I don't it's not my n one priority in my life because I've got a family. So I would love to write a book. I'm not going to any times soon, but I think that would be my dream writing.

A book to me is kind of crazy because like I feel like with the way my brain works, like i'd be like halfway through and have put like months of work into something and then decide in my head that it wasn't a good idea.

For sure, I'm sure every author goes through that. I just think that's from a purely just straightforward standpoint, like it's a ton of work. It's devoting your life to it for a year or more, and I don't unless it hits it big, which unfortunately a ton of golf books usually don't unless they're just kind of watered, just unless there's stuff for the mass audience. But it's a ton of work for not a lot of money. So I look at the formula that.

Way, and I'm like, eh, I'm good.

Maybe one day, maybe we just got to build up your ego a little bit more.

Yeah, there we go.

Oh I don't my wife and my kid would like that. That wouldn't spend any time with them.

So what's uh, what's who's the best interview you've had?

An interview I've had?

Huh?

I wish I haven't had like a lot.

Of the let's just sit down and have dinner. Two hours to cover everything.

Man, I'm trying to Gosh, that's a I'll.

Often tweet at you later and think about that one.

I really enjoy Russell Knox. Uh.

He's smart, he's very humble, he gives good answers. I appreciate you guys. If one of those guys can help tries like sometimes the questions come out perfectly and you can tell they're like, I don't know what the heck you're asking, but I'm gonna try and make it work for you. Or if they do get it, they're like, I'm still gonna try to give you the best answer possible. The smartest dans are possible.

Russell Knox is one of those guys.

He's always been great to me. I think Speak is a great interview. I thought Ricky this week, UH did a great job in the press room. He was making fun of himself.

He made fun of his height.

He said his short drive probably looks long because he's short. And then when someone asked him what would mean to take on the.

Trophy, he said he would join a small collection.

So I felt like Ricky was really relaxed and kind of funny and gave good answers.

But I'm not to tweet a you think about that one some more.

Yeah, it's a self Deprecation's a great, great skill, you know, you got best people can self deprecate, you know, and.

Just can't take yourself too seriously for sure.

And then so if.

If we're going to link to one of your stories, what story is your favorite one that everyone should read that's listened this far, if anybody's still.

Listening, If anyone still listening, let's put a code word at the end, and then they can win a prize if they can tweet it.

Probably my Brian brother's piece.

I kind of tweeted it this week. I'm like, yeah, they did the trick shots, like that's cool, but there's so much more to it. Like they grew up in rural South Carolina. Their dad with this golf nut who started golf in high school and played at South Carolina because he just basically.

Was obsessed with it.

And then they moved to this old little house with an acre of property and he turned it into.

This like.

Makeshift golf academy in the backyard. And everyone thinks, oh, they grew up in a golf cabinet's being loaded, But it wasn't like that. It was just this like homemade sort of.

Golf academy, and he gives lessons. He's a PGA pro. They were both really good in college.

George was actually even better than than Wesley. But like I said before, Wesley missed to school the first three

That was a long one.

And then I wrought about Tiger. If you want a Tiger article about in ninety two, Riviera which that was fun just to see, uh, just what things were like back then as far as I mean Tiger just switched for Simmon and uh, just the reaction to people of Tiger Woods coming out on tour. He had this thing called the Tiger Claw that he did when he made Burti Pus where he basically a clawing motion, which I would just wish that had survived past the week. I

Yeah, that's uh.

I think that it's it's interesting there's Brian and the Brian brothers. They get so much hype and I think that, you know, the trick shots got on so much notoriety that there's almost like a backlash because of that, and it's not really fair. But you know, I you know, there's so many other guys on the web dot com tour, you know like that would love to have be afforded the opportunities that you know, George gets. But that's, uh,

I think that that was ricky, Like everyone acts like media attention I'm in the media is owned to blame. But media attention is like this meritocracy where now, granted, you do wish that people who have success get the attention they deserve, and that sometimes we can go too far and just pay attention to stuff that's stilly and has no has no merit to it over stuff that's really important. But like, media attention is not this meritocracy.

So that's my Ricky Saler take.

I guess, yeah, I think Ricky.

I think what Ricky does better than anybody, you know, is he markets himself. And I think where so much of the backlash comes from is when you know, they when you look at golf's biggest earners and you see a guy, you know, especially younger in his career, he who had never won, who's raking in twenty million dollars a year in advertise and endorsement, and it's like, you know, but he earns that money by you know, doing a great job promoting his personal brand. You know.

Yeah, and Ricky, I think No laing Up tweeted it too. Ricky's twenty eight, He's got four tour wins, and two really good European Tour wins that probably about as strong.

As a lot of PGA Tour events. So really he's got six wins, like it's a.

Good and he won a playoff event, and he won a players Championship. Wells Fargo is a good event, Honda, I mean he's won a golf courses.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I mean, yeah, Jordan Speed has nine wins at whatever, fourteen years old. But I mean Ricky's career is off to a really good start. We like judge these guys in the middle of their career, like that's the last word. Like Ricky Fowler is going to retire fifty with four PGA Tour victories. When four PGA Tour victories are twenty eight probably is a sign that he's going to have a good, solid career.

But he's in the middle of it.

We don't know what the next half of this go. Like, you know, he wins two majors next year, and now all of a sudden, it's like, oh.

Well, it turns out he was actually pretty good and did what we thought he should.

You know, I don't know, So I think it's so hard judging guys in the middle of their career because so much can change so quickly.

I think that people he does everything so well too.

You know, he's long, he's got a great he's you know when it's when he's putting well, he's you know, spectacular putter, and you know everything he does looks really good. It's you know, I think the other aspect of it is like, there's only four majors every.

Year, and this person gonna win a major this year, and I'm like, honestly, they're probably not.

It's like what we talked about under It's like what we talked about earlier, is that there's four majors and you know there's conceivably, you know, thirty to fifty guys on on in professional golf that if you said to me, hey, this guy's gonna win a major this year, I'd be like, Okay, yeah, I could. That could happen. Like Danny Willett last year's perfect example. Nobody was picking Danny Willett, but I wasn't at all surprised that.

The guy won.

He's, you know, he's former number one amateur player in the world, had won a ton on the European Tour.

Like that is that's not surprising. He drives it well, he putts well, like you know that.

And it's like you look at you know, there's only four majors, so in when fifty guys can win, your chances are pretty small, right, So I mean what Phill.

Won it first?

Phill won a first major at thirty four, And I've got five majors and hen Rich just won his first major.

I mean, it happens. It takes a while.

And yeah, again, just because it's only four of them a year, I mean, you can pick four random events. You could say, like is Ricky gonna win Travelers Genesis, you know, pick four random events, like the odds are no, Like he's not gonna win those events, just because pick any four events and then especially take them on the hardest golf courses against the toughest field, and like the odds are against it because it's just so hard to do.

It's uh.

I mean, and then you know, like he won the Players, that's that's a major. That's the best field in golf.

Hey man, here's saying my tune.

I'll probably get a raised you saying that.

Yeah, I feel dirty. I'm gonna have to take a shower.

But the but yeah, I mean the play, the fact that the players you know, compare like you know, their their fields stronger than the US Open field.

But it's not major. It's like, well it's uh, but hey, it is what it is. So hey, I appreciate you coming on.

I don't want to take up too much of your time. I'm sure that you guys got a lot of stuff going on over there at PGA Tour h Q, and uh, don't want to get in trouble with any of your bosses.

Sure.

I usually just next to DJ and we just talk about things on Twitter and then do some work.

Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, it's a different, different life.

I gotta, I gotta, I gotta get down for this year's players though, for sure, and uh, thank you.

I mean I never went to the Players before I started working here.

Uh.

And it's it's an underrated event. Uh It's it's cool, so I highly recommend it.

I'll be here.

We're trying to I'm trying to rally some people to get here. Tron might be here, Kyle Porter might be here, so we're.

You never know, Yeah, I'll get out of my my cave here. I just got to look at the dates, but I think i'll probably probably probably take the plunge and head down there. Sounds good, all right man, Well be well and thanks for all the time.

I'm good, thank you all right, bye bye