Welcome back to the Frida Egg Podcast. Here's part two of our podcast with Roberto Castro. If you miss part one, check it out and enjoy.
I miss a green. For example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my.
Ball in a brid egg, Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida egg, fridagg Frida egg, bride egg, lie, I'm about ready to run off with the hump.
So, uh, how do you go about setting up your schedule? You know, this year you're you're coming in with websites, so it's a little bit different than when you're you know, you've kept your card and your and you've got full status on on tour.
How how how do you?
Yeah, I think I've done a terrible job of scheduling for most of my career. So I'm learning learning to do that, maybe at a very late stage in my career, but yeah, I'm pretty much just taking a chunk at a time, So like West Coast and then Florida Swing and then summer, see what I get into, see what I don't. But you know, I got two little ones at home, so the days of hauling off for you know,
five six weeks in a row are over. But I think it's gonna help me because I think the biggest, dumbest, some of the dumbest things I've done is, you know, play too much and kind of chase it and just think about it the wrong way. So you know, I'm hoping to play like twenty times this year, and you
know I kind of did that last year. I was like, I'm going to play X number of tournaments and I need to get to you know, a certain dollar amount to do this or and if I don't, I don't like That's that's the Uh, that's the crux of it, not whether I played enough. I'm not going to look back on the year and be like I should have played two more. It's like, no, you should have played better. If I if I don't, accomplis what I want to accomplish.
So it's it's helped me. I think it's going to help me, you know, really make the most of every week. It's my my coach John Tillery said the funniest thing to him is going to tour events and guys coming into lunch on Thursday and it's like, how do you do one over one under, Like they just think it's another week where you're playing for seven million dollars and
those aren't like the best players. The best players like look at every week is a huge opportunity to win, and they you know, they have such like a high energy level every week. But it's like you've become totally desympitized that. You know, if you took a kid out of college and you're like, hey, I'm going to give you a spot at whatever Houston Open playing for seven million, the kid's going to build like his whole month for two months around the one week where he can play
for seven million. But you get on tour and you just like totally become you know, you lose that, you lose the focus. That's happened to me a lot. So I'm trying to do better with the scheduling.
It's it's like a fascinating aspect of it is you know I get into that with work, like I you know, I worked so many hours on this stuff that like I just got up. I had a break and you know now I feel like rejuvenated and it feels like good. And it's like the same thing you get into with golf is is if you if it's there every day and you you know it, it doesn't you lose a little bit of that, you know, the specialness of it.
It's that's a that's a.
Great point because like when you're in an amateur level, you know, which is where everybody's coming from. There's only like ten to twelve really big tournaments in a you know, in a summer or a year, right, and those are the ones you gear up for.
Yeah. Yeah, managing your excitement and your energy level is a challenge out there. Wait, because hey, every week is a good opportunity.
You haven't always been with John Tillery. You you switched to him recently, right or in the last.
Four years four and a half years ago? Okay, go ahead.
So was it like making swing changes or changes like that when you're at the PGA tour level.
That's a good question. You know, I never like rebuilt it or did anything like that. I mean when I my kind of first half on tour, I worked with my coach that was through college and uh, through like many tours, web dot com and we had I mean, I played a ton of good golf working with him, and you know, I just kind of felt like I was working on the wrong stuff and just got to a point where, like, you know, it kind of getting the same lesson but getting the same you know, poor results.
So when I went to John, it was just a different lesson. And you know, I mean it's been great, been great working with him, but it was never like, Buddy, you got to you know, you got to go on a hole for three months and rebuild this thing. You know. The I played at Pinehurst the US Open, and I just hit it so bad. I mean I couldn't with a couple of holes left on Friday, like actually could have made a burdy or two and made the cut,
but I was all over the map. And the next week I went and saw John for the first time, and then I went to congression all the following week and I finished like thirtieth, you know, So like I went from not hitting it, hitting it terrible, to like playing a really hard golf course pretty well, just on that one lesson. So, you know, I think, if you're a reasonably good player, you shouldn't have to like get
worse before you get better. I don't believe in that, but that you know, maybe that's just in my experience.
Yeah, I think It's uh, it's interesting. It's like, once you reach a certain level, you're so talented. You guys are also talented at that level that it's like, you know, making a small change you clearly don't most people don't need to rebuild everything.
If you made it to the PGA Tour, right, what's it?
What's more frustrating playing like that week you played at Pinehurst where you couldn't hit you know, couldn't even hit the ball, or the weeks where you hit it great and you miss the cut.
I've had plenty of those two. That's way more frustrating to hit a good and pop bad. Yeah, way more frustrating.
I agree with that too.
It's uh, so you've your dad is from Peru and your mom's from Costa Rica, which is the other way.
But yeah, my mom's PERUVI and my dad's my bad.
I've got a mild form of dyslexia, I think self diagnosed. So you know it's it's you've got, you know, two immigrant parents and then you know you're playing PGA Tour golf. Both your brothers played college golf, like was your were your parents golfers?
Like where this golfing gene come from.
Yeah, good question, myke. It's all my mom's side of the family. My grandparents played for like the national amateur team in Peru. They were lifelong golf first. And my aunt is a college She's in the College Golf Hall of Fame and played fifteen years on the LPGA Tour. And that's all on my mom's side of the family.
But really my neither of my parents played. But my grandparents were you know, avid golfers, and we would spend the summers with them in Houston or mostly just spending all summer with them, and they took us out and from when I was tiny, you know, little we actually lived in the same place when we were when I
was little. But I mean it's just totally for two of us, you know, I mean the you know, you read the you know these books about like you know, outliers or this or that, or you know, you read profiles of musicians, and you know, Dad always played in the band. Mom was you know my you know, every musician like their parents aren't CPAs and lawyers most of the time, right, And so I was so lucky, you know, And now that I have two little kids, like it's
I can see how lucky I was. You know, my coach Tillery, he has a two boys that are you know, like five and seven under six and eight, and you know, I played nine holes with them a couple of weeks ago and John was like to, you don't understand what it took to get to this point where like they remember to grab their wedge and they don't like just go off, you know, like to get you know, to get around nine holes and with two kids that know how to play, and you know, parents are really busy,
even if even if you take your kid out, you know, on the weekend or whatever. My grandparents took me every single day when I was a when I was a kid, you know, my grandmother would take us during the day and then we'd come home and you know, cool off or hang out at the pool, and then my grandfather would come home from work and we'd play at six o'clock at night till dark. And that was every day for three months during the summers. And that's what it takes.
You know. It's like it was just so so lucky to have that, and you know, you need you know, it takes a environment. It's a huge thing. And golf was the one that I grew up in and you know now that I I mean the older I get, the more I just realized that like three or four things along the way of my career from being a little kid to and now we're just like huge breaks. You know, like my coach that I mentioned before, Jeff Patten, through college and many tours. In my first couple of
years on tour. I mean, he spent like hundreds of hours with me because he was the director of golf of Golf Club of Georgia where we played, and he had some flexibility and he was insanely generous and I mean hundreds of hours, thousands of hours over those six or eight years. And without that, I don't think I would have improved to the point where I could have
played on the tour. So you know, a lot of those things just have to have to go your way, and for me, my family background was one of those.
Yeah, it's because you it's almost like you learned. It's like when say, like my dad tells me to do something when I'm a kid, like you don't always they're always telling you stuff to do, but like have that outside, outside influence I can imagine is like so much more valuable being able to play with somebody that's outside of your nuclear family that that gets how to play golf too.
Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, it's huge. I mean that's why
you can improve a lot in college. You know, you go to a team where you're surrounded by people that are trying to do the same thing, and you have a game every day, or just the right club, you know, like Hillary said that, you know, the research shows like you either need like proximity or like a parents, Like you either like live next door to like a golf course or a tennis court or whatever, right, or you have like a parent or a family member that's like,
you know, really involved in that sport. And like I had both. You know, we played a court nearby, And I mean a lot of things have to go right to to get in a position to you know, kind of be at the top level of something.
Yeah, it's you read it about entrepreneurs. It's like there's there's obviously like the great idea, but then there's a ton of hard work and a lot of luck that goes into like almost everybody's success.
Oh totally the luck.
So you're pretty uh it seems like you you think a lot about the game, and you you also one of the things you value is like balanced.
But what would you what do you what do you do.
When you're on the road for a week, like when you're not at the golf course, because how like I can't imagine you're spending like ten hours a day at the course.
No. No, Yeah, if my family's traveling, you know, I'll hang with them. But if not, really just read a bunch of stuff, you know. I mean some magazines you can kind of go down like the internet wormhole of you know, following articles and uh, you know, as much as people like to knock on social media, you know, if you use it the right way, it can lead
you to like a ton of great knowledge. And I mean really, in the last couple of years, I've kind of gotten more into like, you know, reading about golf or learning about it. I'm not traditionally, you know, a golf junkie. I think that you know, this stuff just didn't exist before, Like you were doing the Frida Egg and you know, people were talking about this stuff on social media. I mean, I don't know where you went to find this stuff. And you know, I think about that with golf courses
a lot too. It's like I've played so many great golf courses, and again, I'm like a lot of them. I was a nineteen year old kid that like you know, didn't appreciate how good he had it. But on the other hand, it was like, yeah, so I want to play Cyprus Point when I was twenty. But like unless I like had a book on Cyprus Point or like you know, you couldn't like do any like research before,
like read about it or this or that. Now, if I'm going to play sand Hills, I could read like ten articles that you wrote or whoever wrote and find out like what the story was, who the architect was, how it was. That didn't exist for most of my career, so that you know, that may be whatever. But I mean I go all over the map when I'm on the road. I don't really watch shows. I just don't
have like the attention span for it. I'd rather like flip between magazines and articles and and things like that.
So yeah, it's a do you it's it's interesting.
Do you do you think about like stuff you read about non golf related and trying to apply it to golf.
Yeah, totally. And I think there's tons of tons of overlap, whether it's like you know, kind of like what success literature like how to make it? You know, not really self help stuff. But you know, even if you just read like a profile of somebody of how they how they achieved, what they achieved, there's a lot of overlap with golf. I just read you're Chicago guy. Are you a Wilco fan?
Yeah, yeah, I dabble. I'm not like a I'm not like a die hard. It wouldn't be my like first concert i'd go see, but I enjoy their music.
Yeah, So I just read, you know, he came out with an you know, memoir autobiography and you know, guy lives on the road a lot. It's a lot of
you know, overlap, but there's a I don't know. It's funny though, when I'm like playing, when I'm like energized about things I have nothing to do with golf, Like like you said, when I go home to the golf to the hotel in the afternoon, if I spend like three hours like in high energy mode like reading and maybe I'll write something or I'll you know, find a new book and like burn through half of it, that's when I'm like playing, Well, it's like an overall energy
level when I am just like I don't know what to do this afternoon, and I maybe like veg out to a movie, or like I'm just bummed about being on the road. I don't play well like and I think that's you know, kind of that just like rhythm of you know, human rhythm of like being in a highly productive state versus not. To me, it carries over away from just your you know, your actual jobs.
Yeah, the balance, you know, it's like the everything in life. It's all about balance. You can't be just a one dimensional person. I feel like and like learning about other stuff is so important to because you can learn from
other people that are doing completely different things. That's I feel like I grew up cattying and that's something I learned from Catty and was like, you know, I'd be you know, I was I was a high school player, a good high school player, and I'd be catting for these like twenty five handicaps and they'd say something about the game of golf and I'd be like, huh, never thought of it that.
Way, and it would help me, you know, yeah.
It's ah, so it would do you ever think about you know, post career, like what what you would like to do?
You know, obviously you're still young.
I think, yeah, I'm not quite aging out yet, but I'm also not not that excited to see all these you know, cameraon champs that show up every year. Yeah, I mean I think about it. I don't know. I love golf. There's you know, interesting used to be done in golf, but I also could see myself going in
a completely different direction. You know. I think, like I said earlier, guys careers on tour, I think you're going to see more of the if you're kind of like the average tour player, more of guys playing from twenty five to thirty five, and if you're a superstar, you know, playing from twenty to thirty or twenty to forty if you're a superstar. But everyone loves to point out the outliers as to what's possible. Well, Stricter played till he's fifty.
It's like, yeah, but there's outliers in every field. That doesn't mean that anyone can do it, you know. It's like David Toms kept his card to least fifty. It's unbelievable, first of all, but the number, you know, you're talking about like two three guys in the last Davis Love whatever. There's yeah, three or four guys in the last like ten years that could do that. So I don't see myself.
I mean, it's just going to be so difficult in this in this landscape to just you know, play that you know, ten years when you're just like, yeah, I mean it's not my prime, but I'll just stay on tour. That's not really going to be an option for most guys.
Hey, you never know, though you might might I something might click and it could just completely change.
I don't know. You could be an outlier.
Yeah, no, totally. Like I said, when I look back at how many dumb things I've done in my career, like it's crazy to like start this year feeling like I actually might know what I'm doing as far as like, you know, some of the scheduling stuff and just not making the obvious mistakes that I've made in the past that I actually feel like there could be some some really good stuff ahead.
Let me let me ask you a question. I I know this moment vividly for what's the worst shot you've ever hit in your competitive career?
God, great question, Just like bad shot, like like I.
Can't think like that, like like given the circumstance like where like you know you could be it could have been like you you just made seven berdis in a row and you just like get this complete awful like.
I think about it. So I in high school golf, I played really well in our regional. I get in the sectional, I'm like the last tea time. I'm paired with some really high profile players that played D one golf, and like the first tee I laid side over like an iron off the tee. It hit like seven inches behind the ball. The worst shot I've ever had in my life.
Oh man, that's great. I remember like four putting at a high school regional on the last hole for our team to miss by like one or something that was not good. I was playing with Chris Kirk that day and he like barely rolled out him looked like he like didn't raise a finger and shot like sixty three. So that made it extra discouraging. Gosh, I don't know about like the situation. I can picture some bad shots,
so like that Pinehurst R five at US Open. It's like number five or something that like that long one that goes up to the left. I mean I hit one one hundred yards right off the tee, one hundred yards right, and I somehow I like hit the last pine tree on the road over there and stayed in play. But just like shots like that, you know, maybe not that was probably a pretty low pressure situation because I was probably just outside the cut anyway. But there's some
you know, everyone has those though, everyone has. If you stay in this game long enough, you're can to take some pretty bad licks. That's just part of it.
Yeah, at least it's not like a shank off the tee, you know.
Yeah, that's I played. I played with. Yeah, I got memories of other guys, you know, like some of the shots they hit or good or bad. Yeah, it's never so situational. It's just like purely the shot that they hit.
You know, you want to do some overrated under Yeah all right, sure, who haven't done this in a while? So, uh overrated underrated putting with the pin in?
I think it'll prove to be underrated.
Are you gonna put with the pin in?
I think a lot of guys will outside of twenty or thirty feet yeah, and I think I will.
Yes, do you let me ask you a question.
I feel like Bryson's chops with his like, you know, testing are very overrated. Like you you went to an academic institution for engineering, do you do like testing?
Like like if you no, right?
No? Yeah, no, and look you can you know, I don't know how deep into the weeds he gets. But like for something to be like statistically significant, you got to do more than like ten shots on a track. Mean you got to do you know, I mean I don't know those formulas my head anymore, but you know, hitting ten putts against the pen and seeing that eight go in and two don't go in, it's not statistically significant. I mean you can call it that, but it's not.
I think I remember from like a statistics course, it's like sixteen hundred is like the minimum sample size for something to be statistically significant.
Yeah, I you're probably right. I don't remember. I'm just so confused though about like the disconnect between like scientists that are actually scientists and then like like the FedEx Cup this is ten years old news, but the year that like VJ won before the Tour Championship, okay, and then the next year it was like super way too volatile and they're like, look, this a while to get
it right. And I'm just thinking, like I had professors in is strictly an industrial engineering problem, it's just a math problem, Like it's a modeling problem. You can. I had professors and tas and grads, you know, PhD students, Like I just feel like with a fifty dollars could have given them to some PhD at Georgia Tech and they could have modeled the fed X cup. Like I had an instructor in a math class who was like he was getting his PhD, and I was like, what
do you do with this job? Like what are you going to do with this stuff we're learning? And he's like, well, you can make a model of like whether it's you know, financially feasible to for Boeing to develop and build a new jet. So you're talking about like building an equation with one hundred and fifty variables in it to figure out, you know, because like this new Dreamliner, like it's going to be a production for like thirty or forty years, Like does it make sense cost? Benett? How did we
not get the fed X cup right? You know, Like I just don't understand how we didn't like get some Standford, Georgia Tech PhD to run like a million models of this so that VJ couldn't win the damn thing before it even started. That's just so confusing to me. But you know, maybe they did, and maybe the tech guy got it wrong. I don't know.
What. What do you think of the news system?
I think it's it's great. I think it's great. And to give my I got a buddy who's been like couting this exact system for like ten years and he's completely vindicated by the tour doing it. I think it's good. I think people can understand it. Every you know, you should have to win the last tournament. You should have to win the last tournament to win the championships.
But it's not winning if it's not winning if you start with the lead.
Yeah, but it's consumable. It's consumable to the fan. I think it's great.
I mean, should it count as an official win if you start card Well, I'm just saying. I'm just saying this is that you're talking, say say you win that. Say somebody wins this and they pass somebody else that played in a different era for career wins. You know, someone might look at that twenty years from now and say, hey, this guy had a better career. He had more career wins, and two of them could come from an event where he started with the lead.
Yeah. I don't care, all right, Hey, I don't care. You know, I just don't care.
What do you think about match play?
I just don't have much experience with it. I think it's I think it's what most people play. They play nassas at home. You know, it just doesn't work in professional golf because you lose half your stars every round, so it's tough. You know.
My idea for the Tour Championship would you you do match play and you play out all the thirty two spots, so instead of thirty, you got thirty guys in there, and you play the matches all the way through one through thirty two. So like there's a thirty one versus thirty two match on Sunday, just like there's a one versus two match.
Yeah yeah, I mean you could if Dustin and speak are playing a thirty one to thirty two match, Like that's a marquee matchup. But you got to watch the guy that's gonna win fifteen million, right, that's the one people are going to want to watch.
Well, all of them are.
There's something being played for all of them. Like, and that's the thing is, like why do people go watch people? There's if you go to somebody's club championship, there's like one hundred and fifty people watching the club championship.
It's an easy way.
To follow golf, Like match play is so much easier for the casual fan.
Like I told this story on my other pot.
It's like, you know, I went to the after the after the match, I went to the bar and all my all my buddies aren't golfers. They're all like my you know, they're my college buddies. None of them are. They're all casual golfers. And I go to the bar and they never ask me about golf unless it's the Masters, you know. And I get to the bar and all of them are just asking me how the match was, Like and this is moments after I've never seen but it's so easy for them to understand match play.
Yeah you're talking about the Tiger, Phil, Yeah, did you watch that? I watched the front nine?
What'd you think?
I thought it as a general like the date is perfect and I think like a pay per view to e the golf event is also has a ton of potential. I thought that particular iteration of it was pretty rough.
Yeah, I thought they did.
Like the idea is brilliant, the execution was horrible. But like just what you said, like you were watching all those shells wonderful world of golf.
Yeah, I mean I was. I had a d V yard and was just watching because I wanted to see the courses back in the day. Yeah, but those are stroke play match.
Play, Yeah, those are weird.
You know, Jan Littler got into the woods there at Pine Valley and what he will almost never saw him again seven on it. So that was a ball game.
Yeah, that's an interesting thing I think about too, is like the one thing that match play doesn't account for is like the big number.
Yeah, like, hey, that's you know, I you know, I listened to some of your stuff in the conversation about like that's just a perfect example of like professional golf versus just regular golf.
It.
You know, we're just so indoctrinated to playing seventy two whole stroke play and whether it's right and it's just the way it is, you know, like it doesn't have to be that way forever, and you can throw some random events in there, but you know, the big number is, you know all those the way we've built professionals have like built their game to be played is to maximize a seventy two hoole stroke play result.
So so so is stroke play overrated or underrated?
Properly rated?
Oh man, can't can't properly rate that.
I'm going to go underrated.
The I was gonna also ask is Tillery and Jeopardy of losing his job to club pro guy?
He yeah, I mean he's pretty concerned about it. He's definitely given me a discount on my rate just to you know, kind of keep me around. So he was worried about losing me, so he said he's gonna give me a half off for the first half of next year. So that's nice.
All right.
Last question, if you were a golf fan, what's the PGA tour stop that you would travel to go go see.
That's a great question. And honestly, after my rookie year or maybe my second year, when I saw all you know, by then i'd seen all the stops, I think if you're a golf fan, you should go to one tour event a year, because there are really really cool tour events. If you go in person to any tour event, I think you'll become a golf fan. And they all are very different and they have their own personality and they're awesome.
There really are, Like I mean, you can complain about the wrap around or whatever, and I know I've done it before. And then you go to NAPA. It's like, golf, we just finished a week ago. It's a joke. And then you go to NAPA and there's thousands of people eating, drinking wine, watching golf. It's a beautiful setting and you're like, all right, I get it. Like these people are, they're having the time of their lives out here. They're like
halfway watching golf. But you know, to answer your question, Colonial is awesome, Tory Pines is awesome, Charlotte is awesome. Travelers gets a bunch of people. The Players is awesome. The Players is really cool. Yeah, they're all different, and the product in person is really really good, and the you know, the kind of the personality of the town comes out a little bit. And the I mean, like San Diego, I mean, I don't know eighty percent of
the people there watched more than like two shots. But it's usually beautiful and it's just like a culture of like being outside and it just feels like the you know, like the winter is like suspended for a minute because you're you're there. It's just great.
So sorry, this is one more question. Do you think the players should be a major? No?
Right, No, I don't really care too much about like history or this or that, you know, like the relative comparing the fifties to now, But I think four majors is four majors. I think that's pretty That's probably where I draw the line as far as you know, let's
keep some things consistent for comparison safe. I have a question for you though, all right, do you think that like listening to the you know, the architecture junkies like yourself and your whole crowd, do you think that the Dope and the core Crenshaw and the gil Hands do you think it's just the current, Like I feel like you're convinced that like it's just better now and like now they're getting it right, whereas like in the eighties
and nineties when it was like Fazzio and Nicholas. Don't you think you would have been like, look, Fazzio is building these great golf Like do you think twenty years from now is it that different than fashion? Like are you know, are these courses going to be great forever or are you just convinced that your current era that these guys are getting it right.
So that's great question. I think obviously, like anything, there's trends, but if you look at the greatest golf courses in the world, they embody a few core characteristics, like they're extremely There's like most of the great golf courses have with right Augusta is really wide, it's almost impossible to lose a golf ball except for like the couple ponds, you know, the So from that standpoint, like these guys kind of design with the principles of you know, the greatest.
Architects of all time.
I think at the end of the day, golf architecture is extremely simple and the toughest skill for an arc that for an architect to have is actually restraint. So like doing less is more, and I think the minimalist approach to it, like like why is Saint Andrew's like our Argia with the greatest golf course of the world, Like it's like also and it was done when people knew so little. There there's another whole thing with like amateurs,
like designing golf courses. Like Hugh Wilson designed Marion. He he never designed another golf course. Uh you know, look at Crump at Pine Valley Founds it at Oakmont, like all these guys did.
It was their first course. And uh so.
I think like at the end of the day, I think like there's there's a lot of things with like the naturalness that they do these golf courses where they aren't they're very sympathetic to the land. Like something that bugs me is like you know when you go to like say a Fasio or a Jones courses like the you know they they had the earth moving capabilities and they did almost too much where you know, you have these like you have containment mounting that blocks like your
long views of the golf course. Like little things like that are really like my pet peeves. But I think the trends are going to change and and there's gonna be a new wave of our architects, just like you know, there's this new wave of golfers, Like I don't know what the next wave of golf architect. Texture is going to be like what the next trend's going to be, But they're certainly going to be a new trend. If I knew what the next trend would was going to be,
I'd quit my job and become a golf architect. But yeah, they I mean they are like essentially, I don't know. I think the principles that they use and are the key ones though, Like the strategic nature of a lot of their holes, Like it's a blend of the three schools of like you know, some holes are going to be penal, some holes are heroic, but the vast majority
of them have strategy. And at your level, the strategy doesn't really matter, because we talked about it is like you hit it so far that you know you have leg in your hand. It doesn't matter what angle you have when you have leg in your hand as much.
Okay, that leads in another question. So if at my level the guys hit it too far and they're too good for the strategy to matter, I'm confused as to like who it's because everyone I play with and whether avid like they're not good enough to play strategy, you know what I mean? Like, let's let's see, I read this like stuff, and I'm like, even my buddy who's like a tent who's like a good player, like he can't hit it down the left or the right side
of the fairway. He's just trying to hit it in the faraway, like anywhere in the fairway, even if it's a huge faaraway. So I'm confused as to like who the whole like the whole like you know, you know, cottage industry around this stuff is like for what like a high level midamateter. I'm just confused who's like taking this stuff like.
It's actually like a fascinating thing. Is so like here's a here's something. What about a lady? Like what about your aunt probably has the ball on a string but hits it low? Yeah, that or a senior player strategy is like paramount to them. Like I can tell my mom isn't she's a I don't know, probably like a probably like an eighteen handicap, but she no, she hits at one hundred and fifty yards like And this is kind of what bugs me when I get in arguments
with some like super statistical people. It's like, you know, an angle of approach really matters for somebody that can't put a ton of spin on the ball or doesn't have wedge in their hand.
Like that's like a perfect example.
Your buddy who's a ten handicap, if he's got two twenty from a disadvantaged angle, he'd be way better off just hitting it short left of a green that say, he's on the right side of the fairway to a green that goes left to right, He'd be way better off playing it left and then chipping.
Up it from there.
You know.
Yeah, I understanding when you're in a position to attack versus a position where you have really no shot is obviously very important for somebody.
The less skilled you are. Yeah, so you know, and you can.
Try and like listen, like, I think this is a misconception too. If people think like I'm saying, like, hey, you need to hit the ball down the left, aim down the left edge of the fairway.
That is not what I've That's not the way I play.
Is.
Like what I do is I'll look at it and say, okay, Like any I hit the ball three hundred yards, It's like I'll look at the hole and say, okay, like I should aim down the left center of the fairway here because I'd rather be in the left rough than the right edge of the fairway.
Yeah, now I see what you're saying. You're saying if you're not necessarily trying to go there, if you end up there, you play accordingly from there.
It's it's just opening and it gives. So like, here's the other aspect that I think. This is what I think is the most beautiful thing about golf architecture. Right, So, if you would have asked me four years ago before I started the frieda Egg like, I played golf for score, Like I was trying to compete in state ams. I was trying to, you know, get into USGA events. That's that's why I played golf like I took it seriously since I got you know, I always was interested in
architecture growing up. I read about it like you know, a ton, I'd read books Like once I started this and I started writing about architecture, like all of a sudden, like why I played the game has completely shifted.
I don't keep score.
I have more fun on the golf course than I've ever had before in my life, Like I care, I like enjoy playing so much more because, like you know, what if I shoot eighty three or sixty seven, it doesn't matter to me.
And yeah, I love that.
And like I go.
Out there and I enjoy being outside. I enjoy walking, I enjoy looking, and I like, you know, like why do people go on architectural boat tours when they go to Chicago, Like you're learning stuff, You're seeing stuff, and like I'm way more observant of what's going on around
me rather than just what I'm doing. And I think that's like the most amazing thing about golf is that, like, really for ninety nine percent of the population, And this is what I think the one of the American golf's biggest problems is is that like you shouldn't care about score, You should care about being outside, being with your friends.
Like I played National Golf Links with a Hickory driver and a blot of ball, and I played with guys that were in the range of twelve to fifteen handicaps, like I played when I played other times at National, Like it was like driver wedge everywhere. I'm playing hickory and blatta and I'm playing the members teas and I'm hitting it into the same spots as these guys. And what I noticed most was how much more conversation was being had because I wasn't walking sixty yards ahead of them.
Yeah, it's I don't know. That's to me.
Architecture just adds another facet to the game that makes it so much more enjoyable.
Yeah, yeah, I like that, and I like that, don't The only other the only other thing that I see playing in pro ams, that is, I do think that this current generation has not I just see amateurs their hole is over when they get in a bunker, Like they cannot get out of the bunker. And that's one thing that I think, like you know, the Fasio and the Nicholas courses with car paths and neighborhoods and deep bunkers and you know, all this stuff that's really kind
of proving to be you know, unsustainable or expensive. We're both, uh this current you know, like I've seen all these pictures of a Hopee match club. It looks unbelievable, but like, how do people get out of the bunkers?
See that's a that's a and so like a hoopie the the owners like a competitive amateur.
So like that's another thing you have to keep in mind.
Is like who's who's the project for It's always Yeah, there's so many variables that go into the golf course design. And and I think like a lot of times, like you know, like a lot of times, you know what happened in the in the wrong era is like it
was like the Hogan effect of golf. Like, you know, to a certain extent, these guys don't deserve as much flak as like someone like I give them because like they were in an era where that was thought to be good, right, and like think about like the associated penalty of you going into a bunker versus a fifteen handicap.
Yeah, it's you know, that's why I think, like they just redid the golf course of my neighborhood, Bobby Jones golf Course. Yeah, they took it. I have not played it yet. It's literally rained for three straight months since it opened. But they took it from nine eighteen holes to nine holes. It's a reversible course with like seventy
tea boxes. And you know they're not like I think, they're just a little spot where you can put Tea's a lot of them, not necessarily like a define tea box, but and it's all fairway and I think that's a great idea. A you can keep the ball rolling, you can putt, you can chip. But I've walked around it and there's not that many bunkers and I'm like, wow, people are actually going to be able to like finish a hole here, and whether you're playing first four or not,
people want to finish the hole. And I just play with like, I'm just shocked at how many decent golfers, avid golfers I play with that. I'm like, poor guy, his hole is over, like he got in his bunker and his hole is over. And I really think they did a good job with this, Bobby Jones here with the all fair away and all and not that many deep bunkers. So that's cool.
I wanted to see that.
I didn't have time the last time I was down there to see it. I'm gonna go this spring sometime.
But the I think that's like I live like five hundred yards from there, so hit me up.
I will. That's the thing though, was like, so like if you built a golf.
Course with minimum bunkers and like really interesting green complexes, it's like the perfect thing for a beginner because they could use whatever they can duff it around right. And then for a good player, like all of a sudden, those greens are the defense, and like you have to be in the right spots to attack, like you know, I'll never forget, Like there was a there's a whole
San Francisco Golf. I was playing with Zach Blair there and it's like the it's the sixteenth hole, right, So I challenge the bunker on the right and I get around the bunker into the very right edge of the bunk, and he hits it up the left. We had never seen the course, you know, the green sloped hard left to right. He had absolutely no chance from the left side to hit the ball within thirty five feet of the flag, and he had a wedge in his hand right. So that's a perfect example of a hole like the
fifteen to twenty handicap is gonna have no clue. You know, it doesn't matter for them really, But for a good player, you have to be up the right and you have to take on this bunker to get the angle in.
And this is one of the things, like I think the biggest problem with modern golf is like people complaining about greens and saying they're unfair, Like like the greens that Mackenzie built Augusta National would never get built today because people will say they're unfair, and those are That's what makes the golf course.
I mean, if the if a regular tour event had greens and put pins where they put them at the Masters, no one would go play. Why they're just so extreme, they're so severe. But it's the Masters, so it's awesome.
See. That's that's what drove me nuts about Trinny Forrest is they were moving teas up to take center line bunkers out of play.
They were moving teas up.
On par threes, so that, like the tour players like have an adverse effect to like the idea of having to aim away from something to get it close to something.
Yeah, I hear you. I don't know about the bunkers, but I will say that you know this, it's a it's a circle with no solution. But the I don't know about the bunkering, like I said, but the greens. The other thing that nobody thinks about is getting one hundred and fifty six guys around the golf course, or even one hundred and forty four or even ninety. I mean the rounds and the masters take five hours and
forty minutes because and that's with ninety players, right. So I played at Pinehurst in the US Open, and in the practice rounds, like whoever it was Orschel or Coop to someone was like, look after round one, twelve guyrs will be leading the field. And he was right. The practice rounds, the greens were really firm, and you could stripe every shot and not hit more than twelve greens. And we got out there on Thursday and I hit it down the middle on the first hole and I
spun an eight iron back off the green. They had watered the green so much and it was disappointing, and it was much easier, and Kimer obviously played great and shot low scores. But dude, if you leave a firm like that, it takes it takes six hours and twenty minutes to get around that golf course. Because you're playing for a US Open championship in ten million bucks. So if you're playing like for funnel your buddies, even if you're keeping score and you chip it across a green
a couple times, it's no big deal. But guys are so good and there's so much at stake that if you're having to like, you know, not put it off the green, it takes forever. And that's a really tough thing that professional golf has to deal with that nobody ever talks about. Is to make it hard for players of the tour level. It's so hard that it takes so long to play. It's a problem. There's no solution to that. I mean, it's tough, you know.
So here's something that goes into pace of play that tour players and I think the tour never thinks about, is the distance that the ball is traveling now is also causing pace of play. And look no further than Riviera, which is now like an essentially an invitational. The LA Open, one of the greatest, most historic events of all time, has now been reduced to a limited field, small field event because of distance.
Like now every single player in.
The field goes for tenant off the tenth t every player is waiting on eleven, every player is waiting on seventeen, and that adds so much time to the round that that's why the young players don't get the opportunity to play Riviera as.
Rookies or so short.
Yeah, So that's that's another part of the pace of play.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's just a huge it's a huge issue that that that day at Sawgrass where the greens turned like eighteen on the spin meter, took six hours to play those rounds. You know, it's like, okay, so that was probably a little bit much. But like, well, you know, when you're talking about this conversation about like, well do you do golf Nascia, Now do you make
the greens faster? Do you? You know, Augustus protected themselves with really severe greens and really tough pin placements and the rounds take a long time. You know what, what.
About slower greens with with more interesting pins, more.
Severe That's what That's what hinnacok was really good this you know, this summer, I only played Thursday Friday, played pretty well, missed the cup by won whatever. But you know, the greens were like nine or ten on the stamp, and it was windy and they had some tough pins and it was all good, you know, and then they just put two pins too close, which you know was a whole another story. But but yeah, you know, that's like what Sheen said. The whole thing about golf course
conditioning has gotten out of control, you know. I mean that's why I played two British Opens and to me, they just hit a home. It's a ten out of ten over there. You know. I played at Birkdale, which is, you know, one of the two or three best tournament courses I've ever played. It was so awesome and Harrington won their ten years before at three over par and Stayden Fooch. You know, it was pretty like, you know, crappy on like Thursday for a while. Otherwise the weather
was pretty good. Got to like and you know what cared. They didn't move the pins and they didn't speak the greens up, and they didn't bring in the rough or move it out, like the course is just the course and you just go play. And I think that's pretty awesome.
Yeah, it's that's I think that's one of the biggest problems. And it's partially like from Augusta but like in the agronomics like have just gotten better. But to me, I don't know how you think about this, but I think the slow greens actually enhanced the skill of putters, Like the better cutters put better on slower greens.
Yeah, I agree with you on the putting. The best putters put the best strike on it. And a lot of those guys grew up on really slow greens, you know, like Russell Henley grew up in like Bermuda, you know, South Georgia and like just puts the most beautiful like strike on his putts. And I don't know what kind of greens Ricky grew up on, but that, like, you know, the hit he puts on putts is just unbelievable.
I don't think he grew up on a MUNI I think.
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's uh, I agree with you.
Yeah, So slower greens, more interesting pens. You know, we're just fixing all of golf problems.
Yeah, I just it's like whackable, you know, like you just fix one problem and you have another, you know. Like I wasn't at Trinity Forest, which we talked about, and I think maybe it was you or someone that was like, you know, they made it soft and like it didn't play hard and fast and like and they put the pin. It's like you start putting those pins three off the runoffs and you're paying you can't finish. It takes five hours and fifty minutes for a for
a tour guy that has to put everything out. You know, you can't just like whack it up the slope twice and then pick up. It's a totally different deal. Tournament golf is so different. It's tough, man, it's tough. It's tough to set it up. And so how do you.
How do fifteen handicaps get around trinity forrest in firmer and faster conditions get around it in less than four hours? And PGA Tour players can't get around it in less than five and a half.
Whether they pick up or they just putt and it doesn't matter. They just play fast because it doesn't matter.
Isn't pay?
I mean, like, what do you think about pace of play on the tour? Like the fact that it's actually not enforced. The rule in golf isn't enforced.
I think pace of play on tour is talked about more than it needs to be because I think if you came out on a weekend where you were playing twosomes, yeah, I think it'd be shocked at how fast the pace of play.
It's like four hours in twosomes on weekends.
But like, yeah, that's pretty good on a hard golf course.
But like, why aren't players penalized when they take like three minutes to hit a.
Shot, and I just don't think it happens that often, so they're not really like, you know, there's you know the whole like JB in the middle of eighteen faaraway. Why do we talk about that because it's a rare thing. You don't see that very often.
So, so, like there's a rule in golf that says you have X amount of time to hit a shot, right, right, I don't know what the exact number is, but there's a rule that says that. So like in essence, that's
a shot clock. Like what if the NBA turned off the shot clock, like you'd see a lot longer possessions, right, So, like what if they enforce the rule, the rounds won't take six six hours like that, that's a that's a strict problem of like you know, the players will get mad and the tour won't do it because the players will get bad. But that's a rule that just isn't enforced, and the players know that it's not going to be enforced.
That's why it takes five and a half hours.
Do you think because guys take more than forty seconds to hit shot that's why you think it takes five and a half hours.
I think it's one of them, like look at look at it, Like, uh, I don't think so. I mean Patrick Cantley. You know they people sat and counted how long it took it he stood stood over the ball after his preshot routine for thirty to forty seconds for an entire round, you know. Like that's yeah, that's that's like a two to three minute shot. Like I think
the combination of distance. If if players just took if they don't have to wait, you know, the one thing's waiting, right, But like if the if they took the amount the allotted amount of time, you know, it would speed up the rounds immensely. It's like traffic jam, right.
It wouldn't though, because there's one hundred and fifty six guys with just too many people on a golf course. You would just you would just play faster to wait more. That's all you would do.
That's interesting, But that that goes to like if it's properly yeah, I guess like yeah, because you can't fit all right, I'll agree, you're.
I'm field size.
Yeah, like field size that's a big problem. And yeah, because like fifteen minute per hole.
So it was if the tea times were blocked out fifteen minutes, then you wouldn't have a problem. But then you couldn't get one hundred and fifty six guys around right.
Now, you're playing one to twenty fields and that's not you know, so field size is a huge issue. It's it's a simple reason why you play five and a half hours Thursday Friday, you tee it up Saturday morning with one less guy. It's twosomes and you play in three fifty. Yeah, it's I mean, sure there's some slow guys, but man, it's hard golf courses and it's a lot of dudes. It's really the problem.
It's it's because the and to a certain extent, they're doctoring the courses to control the scoring.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean the courses are really hard. That's a big that's a big, huge misconception on the tour because you flip on Golf Channel on Thursday at two in the afternoon and you're like, oh, so we shot eight hundred this morning. Yeah they did, But the golf courses are really hard, and that's you know, takes a while to play a hard golf course.
So all right, I keep saying.
Last question if you were the commissioner for a day, was like one change you make to the tour?
Oh gosh, I think that I don't know, I don't know one change, goodness, I would probably say that I would probably just shorten the season by five weeks. That's the only thing that would change.
Yeah, have a little more of an off season.
Yeah, I think I think nine. I think nine months is a good sports season, you know. Yeah, I think eleven is you know right now where it basically what a six week you know, off season. I think it's I think ten ten weeks off would probably be. I think nine months is probably good, you know. But hey, we're shortening it a little bit as far as like
the fed X and then it just started earlier. So not really, but you know, I supposedly, like in nineteen seventy eight there was forty eight events, so this isn't anything new. It's not like we're adding events. It's always been this way. That would be my one change.
All right, the last one. One event that you have never played in worldwide. It could be that you want to play in.
I would love to play in. I don't have to play in the match play. The tour events I've not played is just the match play in Kapalua, and I'd love to play the match play. I haven't played a lot of it, and I just think it'd be awesome. But the one tournament I'd want to go back and
play again is the US Amateur. For some reason, I played in two of them, and that tournament, to me, I'd like if I had to just go back and play one more tournament and get one more crack at it, it would be that one I get another match play one. So maybe I'm you know, making an endorsement there.
Hey, match play.
John Pearson's going to be teeing up in the usam in like two years. Oh boy, him and me, we're the same. Oh boy, So you know you could still probably play in the us am You should just call off the USGA.
Peterson what he played on the team with my brother at LSU. He's special.
Yeah that's something. So that's but hey, thanks for the time.
I think a lot of people have a new guy to root for on tour and we'll be, Uh, where do you kick off at?
Sony No, I'm going to Palm Springs.
Palm Springs, all right, the Hope, Yeah, it's a five rounder.
The Desert nobody. I haven't seen any of you golf junkies do a do a good list of what tour guys call the tournaments, which I think is hysterical. When you're a rookie, you have to figure out where the hell everyone's playing because you're in the locker room. It's like, well, you planning coming up, They're like, oh, I'm doing the Desert. And then riv you know, like just the alternate names that all the tournaments have a great in my opinion.
What's what's the what's the at and t you called?
Well, I think if you're a real og you call it the clam bake, but now they just call it pebble. Everyone just called it pebble.
Harbor Town's harbor Town, right.
Yes, yeah, harbor Town. And then the Desert, to me is one of the real real tour lingo. Once you're playing the Desert, you'll be the Desert.
What's Scottsdale?
Uh, Phoenix, Phoenix, Phoenix?
What about Sony Sony Sony?
Yeah, in that way for a long time.
So it's kind of interesting, Like the best I've always said this actually is the best courses. The the the lingo for the core for the tournament is the course same.
Yeah. Yeah, like Honda is Honda, Memorial is Memorial Jack or Jack's Tournament, Yeah, Memorial Ay Hill. Yeah, there's some there's some good ones I'm not thinking of.
But what about like Valero.
I think that one's mostly San Antonio. Houston was always Houston. Yeah, most of the time, it's the city, but for some reason, sometimes it's the sponsor. I don't know why they.
You got Detroit and you got many you got two new ones. I'm curious with those are going to be called probably just the city. That Detroit course is gonna be cool.
It's not looking forward to both of those.
It's a dream up there in the summer of those places.
That's what boggles my mind is how often the tour goes to places like the worst time to go to them, like like this, like this Memphis event in the middle in the in the end of July.
Yeah, that is a it's a head scratcher there because apparently the you know, FedEx like really wanted to upgrade their tournament. You know, they love Memphis, they love Saint Jude, which is understandable, but it's you know, it remains to be seen with how jam packed. The schedule is basically from like Augusta through the Tour Championship where the top players like maybe sneak a week off and but it goes straight from the British to the you know, four hundred degree heat of Memphis, nor.
Northern Ireland to UH Royal part Rush to to TPC south Wind in July.
I love that tournament. That's a sneaky like tournament. People are like, what are your favorites? Memphis is a great tournament. The course is really cool, and the people are so nice, and the Saint Jude factor is you know, makes it. It's really a great tournament. So hopefully they get there. You know, all top fifty or whatever play there.
It's fascinating, you know. Uh, I'm a huge NBA fan and uh nice. All the NBA writers and people are always talking about how they love going to Memphis. Like when Memphis was good with with Gasol, Marc Gasol and and Zebo, they were all everybody was like so excited that the playoff series were in Memphis, like because they it's it's interesting that you're like, you know, you confirm that Memphis is a good spot, so all right. Well, hey,
thanks for the time. We'll keep in touch. Maybe we'll get you on another in mid season or something.
All right, cool, have a going all right, thanks man,