I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in.
A brid egg Frida, egg Frida, egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf. Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg Podcast. Today's episode is with Rob Collins. Rob is one of the principles of King Collin's design. He, along with Tad King, are a up and coming golf architecture firm. So Rob was the fourth episode of the Friday Egg Podcast ever. So it's been a while since Rob was on, but one of our earliest guests coming back on. I was
really excited to chat with Rob. It had been too long. Should have had him on many times before. Since that podcast, they've built courses Sweeten's Cove, but they've also opened innis Landman and they are in the process of putting the finish finishing touches on Red Feather down in Lubbock, Texas, and have some exciting new projects in the hopper. So we discussed a wide range of topics in this podcast,
and without further ado, here is Rob Collins. Robert spent a long time, very long time og Frida Egg pod guests in the first I think in the first five episodes. I think it might be episode four.
I really hope we have better audio today. I think we have better audio.
I can almost assure you that we will. We are not. You know, the audio on my end is not coming through my MacBook speakers and being recorded on my phone.
So yeah, and I'm not I'm not on a I'm not driving to Knoxville in the rain and like on a bad speaker phone or something.
Those old episodes, like I if if you were going to torture me, it would be having me listen to my early episodes, that would be. That'd be about as much as you could torture me. I think I think it'd be worse than like bodily harm.
That was fun it's it's it's funny how many people still talk to me, you know, they say, you know, they they they heard that episode. That was that made a big difference for us.
Yeah, what's uh, what's the new? You're one of the busiest guys in golf now and uh and and where where you been? Uh? What's what's been? Kind of like the last last year, I imagine, you know, you set your intentions with it being at the new year. When you look back on twenty twenty two, what were the things that stood out for you?
Well, we you know, we're really really deep into Red Feather at that point and made a ton of progress out there, so that was a big, big deal for us. And then you know, the culmination of getting Landman open, I mean that was that was huge. I mean it
was funny it opened. Will set the opening date for September four, twenty twenty two, which was the three year anniversary of when we were out there, and I mean that's hard to believe that it was twenty nineteen, but you know, he really took the extra time to make sure that it was dialed in and everything and hit that anniversary and that was that was really special. That's something I'll never forget.
You know. One of the things that'll stick with me with Landman and the construction project project and process of being out there a decent amount is like you know, just going out there and seeing those scrapers moving for like entire days on one fair way and just the you know the amount of earth work that had had to happen to make you know, certain areas of that property golfable, and you know it three years is a long time, but in terms of that project, it feels
like it was actually kind of short.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that was it was definitely a herculean effort. We were so lucky to have some unbelievably talented guys out there helping us. And you know, in a way, it's funny. I mean it's kind of like Sweetens in a way, like the more the harder you try,
the more you know, attached you get to it. And you know that it was just a difficult project because of how much work had to be done, and then you know, Will made a really good decision to to sold it, you know, but even then, I mean it still took still took time to get it dialed in, and so when it was finally ready, I mean you just built up to this moment in time and that was I just that was what a couple of days. That was awesome.
Hey, you know, I wanted to kind of take back obviously the first time, you know, when we did this a long time ago. Yeah, Sween's Cove was in like a completely different place, right, Yeah, I.
Mean, in a death spiral basically, I.
Think about it. It's you know, we we both at that point we had had businesses that we didn't really know what the future held for them. And you know, I think there's probably you probably could go back and count on you know, you could list off dozens of moments like pinch me moments in different formative important moments of Sweden's Cove. But like if there's one like time where you thought, I can't believe this is happening in its history, your time there, what would it be?
Well, I think, you know, definitely, definitely the biggest moment was when when the group finally came together, the ownership group. We had searched long and hard for a really long time to find a great group to partner with, and I was coming off the back of actually turning down a very very successful golf developer who's done really good projects. Have a lot of respect for him, but we just
couldn't come to agreement on the numbers. And you know, going through the negotiations with Mark was was a breeze and it was we just could tell, you know, it was it was going to happen, and it was going to work. And then you know, when the story of when I was out to dinner with with Mark and Tom Nolan and I didn't know Peyton was going to be one of the partners, and when Peyton walked into the restaurant and they all surprised me with that, that was just like, holy shit. I mean, I can't believe
this is happening. I just couldn't believe it. That was I mean, that's still just you know, get tears in my eyes thinking about it.
Really, it's an unbelievable surprise. Like you know, it was.
An unbelievable surprise. It was just a big it was I mean, it was the biggest surprise. I mean, uh, Will Bardwell wrote a great piece about that. And every time I read the restaurant scene, you know, from time to time, once a year or something, I'll go back and read that article and it always it gets a little dusty every time I get to that scene. That was a that was a big deal. And it's it's awesome having those guys on board. I mean, it's been
so fun to watch it. And now you know, with Matta Danski running things, I mean he's taken it to a whole new level. I mean he's just an amazing GM and so creative and so passionate about it, and that place needs somebody who's going to live and breathe that experience because it's so different, and he just does an incredible job, and it just it just keeps getting better. And every year we think of, you know, ways we can make the experience better, and and just we always
try to make it better for people. And I think that's really helped it continue to be fun and attractive.
Yeah, I mean the at that at Sweetens that there has to be a definitive culture ceter right.
And yeah, you know a great way to say it.
It was Patrick before Matt and it's just you know, in a way, and obviously that the model, the business model of the golf course has changed tremendously. You know, the way people think of sweet and Scove has changed
completely from five years ago, yeah to now. And it's you guys now in a way like you were kind of like the little engine that could, but now I imagine in a way that you're kind of with the all day passes, the high demand, you know, like you have become this bucket list you're almost you have to deliver an experience from when somebody gets out of the
car with with the golf court. How has that changed and how you guys think about, you know, delivering a experience for like a top notch experience for people, because obviously, like the I think the expectations of when somebody goes there is dramatically different than you know, five six years ago.
There's no question. I mean I think people had had zero expectations. I mean one of my best friends, he's become a great friend through Sweden's guy named John Allen. You know, he went out there and he was a huge supporter of ours very early. Remember and his first time out there. I'll always get tickled here in his story because he he went and played nine holes and he walked up to the shed and just walked straight up to Patrick. John's very straightforward. He said, what the
hell is this place doing here? I mean it just it didn't make sense, you know, like how is this golf course here? And then also why am I like the only player here? And so but then people who just people who didn't know about it. I mean they had very low expectations, as you said before, and now there's a very high expectation. And that's something we talk
about all the time. And that's where Matt and Colt and those guys just I think they do an absolutely amazing job of having this immersive experience and treating everyone, you know, really well and like they're like they're a house guest almost, you know, and a cherished house guest coming in and you just want to show him a great time. And so that's something we talk about a lot.
And you know, we fell into the all day pass thing by accident, and that was the result of you know, the golf course being too crowded, and we we we figured out that let's do this all day pass thing and see how that works. And then it became that became really popular, and you know, each year we we strive to get better on the experience side of it.
And this year one of the things we're going to be doing to make it better is we're going to work with a food provider, you know, like a food truck, so you'll actually be able to get food there rather than you know, ordering out to dominos.
I mean, that's huge, and it's going to be a tough break for the subways.
Yeah, a tough break for the subway. The good and the bad subway, so you know things like that. You know, we want to you know, improve the you know, furniture and kind of hang out space up top, and we just want people to be really comfortable and have a great time and not want for anything. So, you know, as we've gotten into it and seen it grow, I think we're you know, in a place where we can do certain things you know, we couldn't do a couple of years ago.
So how how does being on the side of you know, you're part of an ownership, part of people, that part of a group that makes decisions about the daily operation of a golf course. Does that help you with talking with perspective owners about new projects?
Absolutely? I mean Sweetens has given me in Tad too, you know, Tad's experience prior to us going out on our own. I mean he had a lot of experience in setting up operations too, and so that combined and Tad's been intimately involved in the launch of Sweetens and he always knows what's going on. So both of us collectively having been through all that, it's given us a wealth of knowledge and experience that we can give suggestions.
And one thing that I've noticed just with how the way golf is going and the way consumers are kind of looking for golf is more what I would call like an immersive type of experience. People are less interested and less inclined to just you know, going and getting a ten twenty tea time and there's a ten to twenty eight behind it, and that's like punching a clock
at work. You know. These very rigid systems that we've had that you and I grew up with playing golf are going away, and people are looking for kind of a more immersive, authentic experience, and so we try to think about creative ways to deliver that in various formats. I mean, some of our clients have private clubs and some are republic but you try to you think a lot about the experience and how that's the whole thing, and how the golf course architecture can tie into that.
Yeah, if you create you know, I think one of the things that the all day pass and I've never actually like, I've been there all day a number of times, you know, for different things. I've never participated the all day past thing. But the way I kind of think about it in my head is that what you've done is the traditional public golf experience is kind of like a movie. Right, you have your showtime, you show up, you know you're there a little bit ahead of time.
You get your popcorn, you get your your drink, you watch your movie, and then you leave. And what you've almost done with the all day past there is you've created more of like a feel of like a music festival, where you know, you show up up, you're watching one show. You might bounce over to a different stage for a while. You might decide, hey, let's just hang out here for a little bit and stop playing golf. But then I'm going to jump back out, you know, in twenty minutes.
And it's much more of a free flowing I'm here all day. And I think one of the things it does is it actually like it makes the golf more casual in a way, and because you're not in this like hurry like there, it removes that schedule from the day and it creates like almost more of a relaxing, laid back, approachable atmosphere.
That's absolutely true. I mean, it's it takes the pressure off in people who come there who maybe haven't done it before. You know, there's a little bit of anxiety on the first he of like I've got to get out, you know, And Matt's really good at kind of talking off the ledge a little bit and saying, Okay, look, you're going to be here till nine o'clock tonight in summertime, like it's going to be okay. And you know, the fun, really fun thing is is about the all day passes.
It like gives a lot of power to the consumer. We're not dictating how they're going to enjoy the golf course. They decide that on their own. And and you know, we don't have many rules, you know. Basically all we ask is that you be respectful of the golf course and the people around you and and and keep up, you know, in other words, play play fast, don't don't don't bog the place down. And so if you can do that playing with five or six people, great, you know.
And and then the other thing too, is is that it creates a cool atmosphere where you know, somebody from Chicago may you know, be going around and they end up pairing up with some guys from Florida, and and you know, they become friends and have a have a unique experience in that way. And then towards the end of the day. Is the attrition inevitably, you know, opens
up more space on the golf course. People can kind of go, you know, maybe you play number one backwards to number nine, or do some of the cross country stuff too. So there's there's a lot of flexibility and in it's kind of a choose your own adventure in a lot of ways, where people just they're the ones in control and they they they can do what they please.
I got to ask your your life's changed significantly, and you know, you you've effectively gone from you know, a designer of a nine hole golf course who was really waiting around for their next break, you and Tad to now you're a very I would say, you're a very busy golf architect. You have I think like that. I know of three plus jobs that are that are in some sort of process, probably a lot more coming down the pipe. And how how's that transition been and would
have been? You know, the you know, the big things that you've had to change.
It's it's it's been a very welcome transition for starters. You know, it's it's it's always been. It's you know what we work so hard for and.
There's like no middle ground. It seems like.
There's no middle ground. And but it's funny. I mean, you know, we all have bad days and and you have great days, or maybe you get a little down about something and I often say to like Rob, what the hell? You know what, you don't have anything to complain about. I mean, you're doing what you want, doing great projects with great clients, you know. So sometimes I have to have a little bit of a reality check
because you know, things can get stressful or busy. But you know, uh, the growth of King Collins is in how we handle that is something that Tad and I talk a lot about. We spend a lot of time talking about that and how we you know, add people on and you know, we've been fortunate to bring bring some young guys on who are a huge help on site. I mean as a design build firm, you know, we don't like working on more than two projects at a time, and you know that that creates a lot of you know,
scheduling complexities for me and Tad. I mean sometimes I'll need to be here and he'll need to be there, and then there's you know, back of office helps stuff that we have people to help us with that. I mean, I know, you just hired one of our old interns, Matt, who's doing a great job for you. And you know, we have somebody working for us named Sharon who does a lot of things that you know, we used to have to do that we don't really have time for now.
So but like figuring all that out is we're figuring out on the fly, you know, and that's it's not always easy, and there's fits and star with it. But I think we're I think we're figuring it out.
What has been you know, if you can give us share some light, what's been the toughest challenge about this, about the growth? I mean I can relate.
I yeah, I mean, well it's funny. I mean, you know, uh, you know, I remember vividly when when Patrick told me about you coming out there to Sweetens in twenty fifteen. You know, this guy's driving down from Knoxville to come see it, and lives changed in both of our lives in that time. And I like to every time I see you, I make a comment about you being the busiest busiest man in show business. I mean, you really,
it's insane how busy you are. But I think that, like the hardest thing has just been striking kind of a work life balance at times. You know, when things are really busy on a couple of projects, it can it can you know, it can get stressful, and you know, you just got to that. That's where us hiring more people has been a huge help and good people. You know,
it's funny. There's a guy working for us right now, Bruce Shober, young guy who's just crushing it as one of our project managers, and it's he was working out at Landman at one point in time at Landman for weeks on end. His job was to pull sticks out of the sand that we were getting from the river just so it wouldn't go in the greens. I mean, talk about you know, not very fun. But he didn't complain.
He great attitude and now he's running projects and you know, being able to have people like Bruce step up and help is huge. And we've got a nice stable of guys we really like to work with on shapers of things and that's been great too. So we just we just need to keep building and keep trunning ourselves with good people planning week behind.
Now for a quick word from our sponsor today's episode is brought to you by Club TFE. We are cooking in Club TFI. That is the Fridagg membership. So for one hundred and twenty dollars a year, the Fridagg membership gets you a lot we get. We've been putting out daily content during the week, so Monday through Friday, there are new posts up every day on the Club tf blog. We also have a weekly course profile, so these are
these have been really popular so far. We dive deep into a singular course and you know, every week we add a new one with an egg rating, as well as a monthly hangout that is happening soon be basically like a live Q and a podcast and that will be next week. And then we also do early event access, so events are starting to open up. We just had
our first batch of events open up. And then there's also some other little things like ten percent off the pro shop and as well as a member gift so if you haven't yet, if you're interested, if you want more stuff from us. I'm really really proud of what our team's been putting out and I think we are just going to keep improving this. We hope we have a lot of ideas and plans to continue to evolve this, but right now I think it's a really good product
for one hundred and twenty bucks a year. So if you're interested, join at Thefrida egg dot com slash membership and thank you to everybody that has joined in for the support. And now back to Rob Collins. What are some things that you hated letting go that now you look back on and laugh, like, thank God, it's out of my life.
I mean, well, a lot of this stuff is like just awful, like paper pushing stuff, Like I didn't hate to let that go. But on the other side, I'm like, thank God that I'm not doing that stuff anymore. Like I am so bad. Tad and I laugh. I mean we are the two worst administrative people on Earth. I mean, if I worked in an office, I would be fired within four hours. You know, I can't. I can't stand that kind of stuff. And you know, having people to
help with that has been has been huge. But I didn't I didn't shed a tear when I got to say goodbye to some of that either.
So yeah, I mean that's like the stuff I think about that all the time is like it's it's seems sometimes like stuff seems like it's so hard, like I could never get rid of this, and then you finally get rid of it, and you're like, why did it take me three years to get rid of this stuff? It's it's just you know, is there anything in the creative process I imagine? I mean you talk about work life balance. I go through a lot of the same stuff.
You know, both of our jobs require us to be away from home a decent amount, which obviously then you know, puts a strain on that relationship. It do you find yourself? Have you, as you guys scale and I think this is obviously a tricky thing in the design build world, Like everything in your business pushes you to want to scale up, but the ethos of your business is craftsmanship,
which is like the complete opposite of scaling up. That's right, So you know, have there have you started to let go a little bit of some of the creative processes in certain aspects, And you know you talk about bringing more people on, obviously you want them to grow as well.
Right, Yeah, you know, Tad and I don't spend as much time on machines as we used to, just simply because of time commitments. But having really talented people who can come in and help with that and do those things has been tremendously helpful. But you know, Tad and I have talked about that, and when we have accepted the fact that we do in fact have a ceiling, too,
are the scale. I mean, it can't grow outside this room, you know, it's it's only going to get so big simply because we don't want to do five projects at once. I mean, it's as Tad and I say, we would rather end our career doing twenty twenty five projects, thirty whatever that number is, I don't know, and be really really proud of every one of them, than to do, let's call it fifty projects and go. I wish we
had another shot at that one, you know. You know, people's time and resources are so valuable, you know, from the client end and also from the amount of effort and time that people put into it that it's just it's worth giving it everything you got. And I firmly believe that we're going to be better off in every respect, and Tad does too by following that more simplified approach. I mean, that's what God is here. We don't need to get crazy. We don't need to We don't need
to change the model too much. We just need help.
That's well, I think that's a pinch across the industry, right with so much construction going on, there's you know, the whole industry contracted, and you know, and now there's this you know, surplus of work and you know there aren't you know staff.
That's a huge, huge issue, absolutely huge issue. I mean it's funny. We had, as you very well know, we had fortunate to have Jeff Bradley help us out on the bunkers at Landman and that was because you know, in twenty twenty, you know, it was middle of COVID and Bill and Ben as we all did had you know, some things that kind of got paused and Jeff needed a place to go and thank god we could use it.
And you know, it is hard to find those people, and Tad and I try to work really hard to cultivate a really fun team atmosphere to to you know, have guys who want to work with us and want to be want to be loyal to us and not bounce around. You know, we give a lot of a lot of leeway to guys, give them a lot of freedom and we're both easy going and and fun to
work for. And I think that you know, a lot of times on golf construction projects, you know, maybe the architect, particularly if it's a contractor situation, it's it's they're constricting people down, and we like to give freedom. I mean, that's how you get that's how you get the best product is by having people inject their own uh being and creative process into it. And then you, you know,
you react to that. I mean a lot of times you have very specific ideas of what you want, but you but you still, you know, you give them, give them a lot of rope and let them run and see what they do. And and then and then you know, it's just dirt. You can always change it if you need to. But that that, I think that's how all the best courses, you know, since sand Hills have gotten built by doing stuff like that. So that's kind of what we try to do.
And do you have a specific example of that, maybe a feature at Landman where you let somebody go and it turned out better than what you had maybe planned or different, may not better, but you wouldn't know, but different than what you had planned, and you ended up really liking the final product.
Well, you know, a great example right off the top that comes to mind is the creek baranka feature on number three, which people have loved. And that was actually Jimmy Craig's idea. We we you know, the bunker placement on that hole was, and we knew where the bunkers wanted to go, and how the hole wanted to go, and how the green was going to sit sit down on the ground and all that, and Jimmy suggested that, and it was it was a great idea, and we
ran with it. And it was funny because as we started going with it, we said, well, let's at this point in time, we had Trevor and and another guy named Lucas helping us, and and and and John Ellsworth too, and and we're like, well, let's all let's connect these things. Create one on four that's coming down and and and then Lucas actually suggested, why don't we, you know, connect him up rather than having the one that's on four because Forrest, as you remember, Forrest higher than three and
all the water comes down through that channel. And he said, well, let's connect him up. And that and that was you know as well, Yeah, Lucas that that's it, that's that's exactly what we should do. And so, you know, we want people to be thinking. We want people to be light on their feet and throwing out ideas, and you know, we'll take ideas from anywhere. You know, it's ultimately our decision to filter out the good ones and the ones
that might not work and and go with it. But that's a I think that's a good example, I.
Would say, and I hope this is not unfair to say, and if it is, please correct me. I kind of describe you guys as architecture as maximalist. I think you're not afraid to push stuff around and create. And obviously you're making a name and I think that's part of you know, why you're making a name. You're doing things differently than a lot of other people are doing them,
and you're in this era of minimalist architecture. You know, do you get pushedback, you know, in from clients and different things when you say, hey, we wanna this is what we want to do, And obviously I think it. You know, you're you're bringing typically different ideas in a different perspective to to projects than maybe the other people they're talking to.
I think we I totally agree with you in that I think we do bring a different flair and creative process than a lot of other firms. I mean, I think there's things that we do that are different and unique. I mean, I've always said, you know, if somebody asked me my opinion of how do you get into golf architecture people who are interested in it, what do you recommend? Et cetera, et cetera. And one of my key things I always say to people is, you know, find your
own voice. You know, find find your own vision. Because I've got news for you. You are not Bill Krer, and you're gonna waste your life trying to chase that ghost. Because if you're simply I love Bill and I love everything they do. I mean that is the highest praise. You know, you can't to find your own own vision, your your your own voice. Otherwise if you try to be someone else, you can't be. You can't out build
core Bill Core. In other words, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, So we have tried to find our own vision, in our own voice. I think that's something that you're speaking to and I think that's one of our great strengths. However, I would push back a little bit on the maximalist thing, which may be semantic.
It's hard one, there's only two, there's only two top two, there's no middle ground.
Well, but I think the term the term maximalist to me, and it could completely could be a semantic difference in how we perceive maximal The word maximalism, The word maximalist to me implies a little bit of gratuitousness to it. I don't know if that's if you have that in your mind, but to me, that word has an implication of gratuitousness or maybe artificiality. So I would say that we are not maximalists in that sense. Like, for instance, Landman.
Landman was a completely ungolfable terrain in its natural state. Looking at it from you know, an overall view, just standing on the first tee before a teaspoon of dirt was pushed, it looked amazing. But then when you start walking on it and you're walking up a four to one slope to the number one green and your heart's pounding out of your chest, you know you can't play
golf on that. So we had to do things that made it golfable in you know, I would say that, you know, the overall goal with Landman was to not move gratuitous amounts of dirt for the just for the sake of doing it, But it was to move the right amount to make it both playable, strategic, and have all the shot making characteristics that we wanted. You know, we wanted to move not too much, not too low.
We wanted to move the right amount. And also, you know, our first project, Sweden's Cove, was a seventy two acre dead flat floodplain that did not drain, so we had to move a lot of dirt there. Landman, We've had, you know, just by the nature of the site.
You know, And I agree, like the one of the things about you know, being a younger architect and not having huge body of work is like, we haven't seen you have a site in great natural sand dunes.
Now, That's that's what I'm That's what I'm getting around to, is that you know, we don't necessarily look at a site and say, oh, I would like to knock this hill down and just because we can. I mean, that's not at all our mindset. You know, we always talk about every single project. It's our job to figure out
what the question is that this project is asking. Once you identify that, then you figure out how to answer that question and what the how you push forward from there And at Landman, in order to build an extraordinary golf course, it required moving a lot of dirt. I compare Landman two really to the original Lido in a lot of ways, because the original Lido moved roughly two million cubic yards by creating golf on a beautiful but
otherwise ungolfable terrain. Right that site was not golfable prior to them doing that. Yeah, okay, and Landman like the Lido is a just flat out, unabashed tribute to a certain type of golf. It's it's audacious. It's just an unapologetically tribute to a certain type of golf. And it was manufactured on a great site. But prior to construction was was ungoffable. So that was the question, and that
that's that was the approach we took through Landman. Now we have a project in Nashville that is it's this unbelievable rolling terrain and it's much more of a I mean, okay, a minimalist job. I mean there's stuff where you know, there's green settings next to little creaks like the project we were talking about earlier, we're just you hardly move anything. So and then you know, we have another project which
I hope can get announced this year. It's truly on one of the best sites in the world, on a seaside site with sand dunes and all that. I mean, that's just a teaspoonful here and there, you know, so you have to you have to roll with the punches. I mean, every every site is going to have a different set of demands to deliver the best possible product
to the client into the consumer. And I think that you know, Tad and I do have a certain fearlessness to us in a flare for the dramatic, and a willingness to do some things maybe that other people wouldn't want to do. And I think that that that helps us in a lot of ways when we when we we see opportunity where maybe others would see a roadblock. And I think that's one of our strengths.
I've something that I've always thought about, not always, but you know, recent years have dominated my brain and I always think about this and from your perspective as as builders, as guys that create stuff is it harder and does it require more confidence maybe to build a wild green or something that's very understated and know that it's got enough going on.
I think you could argue that both take equal amount of confidence. There's some really wild grains at Landman, there's a few, but I think that like the oxygen gets taken out of the room by number seven, number four, number fifteen, and number seventeen because they're so audacious. That's like, you know, you forget about you know number number eight, you know, nine, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, then fourteen you come to this ver Dan with this gigantic kicker
which kind of takes your breath away. So you know that you have to be confident in your application of when when to get a little wild, but also you got to know when to pull it back too. And one thing that I absolutely am very cognizant of and so is Tad is you know, I don't want to be nor do do Tad. And I want to be put in a box of like, oh those are the guys who just they do all the crazy stuff they do the wild greens. I mean yeah, I mean sometimes
but sometimes not. And you know, I want each of our projects to be kind of like a faberge egg for the lack of a better term, where it's just it's its own little special thing, and it's each one's different, you know, each one is something that we're immensely proud of. But land Man is not like Red Feather is not like others. I mean, there's there's greens at Red Feather. There's some there's some bold ones, but there's some really really just chill kind of lay of the land stuff.
I mean, I can't wait for people to see Red Feather. I think it has an awesome mix of greens and bunkering and interest. I've never really seen anything like it, and that's an Red Feather is an example of where, you know, to get it back to some of the earlier comments like that's where you know, I think Tad and I saw an opportunity where maybe others would would
have gotten a little scared away. In fact, I was talking to Tad today, I mean, we almost didn't get that project permitted because even the engineers just they couldn't wrap their head around how we were going to make this thing work. And I remember Tad talking to the guy and finally the engineer was like, oh, yeah, that
will work. And you know, we have to move one point three million have to like we will get in the project will get you know, wouldn't work if we don't move one point three million cubic yards of dirt beneath a certain contour to hold a certain volume of water during a five hundred year storm. We have to do that, by the law. We have to do that. And it's taken a lot of creativity and a lot of vision and Tad's expertise and just incredible ability to
understand big earth works. You know, in the end product there is going to be extraordinary and it's it's it's it's different than land Mane. It's gonna be different than the one in Nashville, but it's gonna be its own special thing.
Well, I think this is like something with golf architecture. Right, we're in this in this period of this dominated by minimalism.
Right.
This is obviously with like Bill Bill Corr and Tom Doak, and you know they've ushered in. They those guys obviously they moved dirt on projects. It's like, you know, not every project's just like I found this green here and I mowed it out right, they moved earth. But the era, this really the last twenty years, has been dominated by a singular trend. And I think what what's happened is it's kind of created. Like almost everything in the world seems to now is like this is good and this
is bad. I'm on this side. I'm on this side. And the reality is if if golf architecture is there in art form, there is a lot of room for different projects. And from what I understand about the Red Feather site was like, you know, it's an area that's extremely prone to flooding, and it was a very flat
piece of property. So if you put golf there, it just you have to have the necessary features and it takes, you know, the skill set to go wander around a sand dune site and find eighteen holes is a lot different than taking a flat, flood ridden area and creating eighteen holes, and both deserve some like a real study of how it's done, and the skill sets are different, Like it's not a matter of narrowing down you know what eighteen holes are best, like obviously at sandhills, like
what of the one hundred and six the one hundred and thirty two holes, are the best eighteen right, it is how do we make a functional golf course from nothing? And like, I think that is it's an interesting thing because it's really it's almost you could make an argument a more creative process because you're having to imagine something that doesn't exist in its current state.
I could not agree more. I mean, I think that, I mean, I just I'll go back to our guys, but I mean, I'm so immensely proud at Landman and Red Feather of what they did, you know, to just pull these features out of the earth through a lot of hard work, Like Joe Hancock was out at Redfeather and Mark Berger and John Ellsworth and these guys. I mean, we have to create these channels in places for the water to go below a thirty two to twenty nine contour.
And when we first started that project, we didn't really have a real solid idea of exactly what the look and feel was going to be. We just knew kind of had to get this start out and what you know, we didn't know exactly what it was going to be, but we had the confidence that we as the dirt came out, we could make it work. And we were driving out east of town in Lubbock, there's these just amazing landforms with these dry creek beds coming through them,
and these flat top landforms look like maces. I call them maces. It's like some of the scenes in No Country for Old Men of that just very start, kind of very rugged landscape. And we latched onto that look and so let's run with that, and the guys created these just amazing features. I mean, it looks like the golf course looks like it was just kind of carved
out of this rugged West Texas landscape. And the goal was to like move boatloads of dirt to satisfy the permitting requirements, but then sit the golf course down on top of that in a minute, old fashioned almost like we didn't. Does that make sense. I mean, it's like you move the dirt and then you just set the golf course into it, almost as in a minimalist sense. So the golf course is very ground hugging, very low profile, very down on the ground, lots of greens where it
just runs right into the fairway. And you know, that's been a really a fun thing. And in at land Man, I mean Tad and I and our team I think should be very proud of seeing golf holes where you know, there were slopes and things going on that prior to construction weren't there, and how they were able to tie back into the natural land and make it look like it was there the whole time it is. That's a lot of skill and a lot of creativity by a
lot of very talented people who made that happen. And I couldn't be happier with the way those things turned out.
What are concepts golf and design that you haven't been able to do that you'd like to do?
Well, that's an interesting question. I'll tell you about one. We submitted a plan to Pinehurst in October of twenty twenty one, and I mean, honestly, I can't believe I'm even saying this. I mean, there's literally only a handful of people that know this, but what the hell I mean? I work To have a chance to work at Pinehurst
would be ultimate dream come true for me. You know, my whole a lot of the ways I think about golf architecture came out of Pinehurst Number two and seeing that with my dad in two thousand and seven and my brother on his seventy fifth birthday trip, and obviously that was prior to the renovation, but even then, you know, just the greens and the putting, you know, the short grass and the contour. It just was really impacted the
way I thought about things. And to have a chance to throw some ideas out there at the pit has been been a thrill and I hope that I hope that we can do it. We came up with a concept that I've never seen anywhere, that would be entirely unique to the world of golf, that we feel would be a perfect fit for a place like Pinehurst because they have these, you know, some really great kind of traditional courses. I mean, you know, I'm sure Tom's course will will be a great addition, and that Bill and
Ben do theirs, I hope they do. That'll be another great eighteen hole golf course. But our concept was to take one hundred and forty acres and build five golf courses on one hundred and forty acres where you could play a new course each day. And I worked with Joe McDonald to do all these amazing renderings and flyovers and all this stuff. So one day you're playing this way on the purple routing and you know there's greens everywhere.
Sometimes the greens only play for the red routing, and sometimes you only play for the purple routing and only play for the green routing. And but sometimes you know there's double greens that you you know, you might use one side of the surface or another at any rate. I mean it was you know, I would like for us to have an opportunity to basically have an ode to Pinehurst number two that is like five Pinehurst number two's on a different day with just different stuff going on all over the place.
So there'd be ninety holes on one hundred and forty acres.
There'd be not great at math. Yeah, that sounds right.
The only reason I know that is because of the Bob Hope used to be five rounds and I could, I could do that quick. But then there'd be you know, there'd be some there'd be way more than eighteen greens, you know, and different series of routings. But there wouldn't be ninety greens obviously.
No, no, exactly no, So one day, so one just like go ahead.
One thing that I obviously you'd have increased maintenance costs from the additional greens. But one thing that pops into my mind is the idea of how you could do maintenance work on areas that weren't being used on the day's routing and preparation for the next day. Yeah, I mean there's like a lot of utility in that sense. Like that's just one area facet of this that jumps
to mind. It's a very interesting idea, and you know, like the other question I'd have is like, is this is this a better idea for a resort where somebody's coming to play one time? Obviously they could play the same course five days in a row and be different every time. Or is this a path? Is this a path? Like this type of idea a really intriguing idea for private clubs or municipal golf courses.
Well, I think it could definitely work really well in a private club aspect as well. But you know, our thought was that it was the absolute perfect thing for Pinehurst because they have, you know, a lot of golf courses. They've got nine now they're going to have ten golf courses where it's a very similar experience and each time, and you know, there was a sort of a utilitarian aspect to it, and that it only takes up one hundred and forty acres, So it's not it's not spread
over two three hundred acres. It's it's more compact. It's you know, the courses are ranged from six thousand to sixty five hundred yards. And going back to our original conversation of how Sweetens has affected how we think about things in the immersive nature of golf. You know, this is a very immersive thing in that Let's say you're playing this blue course one day and you're looking over and you're going, God, I would I would die to get, you know, to play that one, and it just it
just sets this hook. We're all cracked. We're all we're all crack addicts basically, you know, you know, you once you get see some think cool, you want to experience it again. You want to see the next thing. You
just couldn't get enough of it. It's like, well, I've got to stay an extra day or And my thought was that people would be like it would extend the length of their visits because Okay, this year, i can play the red and the purple in the yellow, and I'm gonna stay an extra two and a half days to do that. And then next year I'll come back, and and it's like it creates a repeat visit thing because Okay, let's say you go to Pinehurst for four
or five days. I mean, you're definitely gonna play number two, You're gonna play number four, you're gonna play number ten, play the core Crenchhall. You know. Then it's like, Okay, well, I've got to come back next year. My buddy played the Purple one on Wednesday and he said it was unbelievable, So I gotta play that one. So it creates a
desire to return. And I think it would be great for him, not only just from a golf standpoint, have something different than what they have, something that at the same wild still while being different, is still rooted in the fundamentals of what Pinehurst is. I mean, it needs to be a very Pinehursty looking golf course. I mean, I'm not we're not reinventing. We're not reinventing the wheel
on that. But but also from an operational standpoint, it's like you're I mean, I don't why wouldn't you, I mean you would, And can you imagine how much merch they would sell? My god, I mean, you know, five different courses.
I mean I think it's like, you know, one of the things that I find frustrated with golf architecture is, you know, architect building architecture, you know, painting, sculpting, all these different art forms, right, and building architecture and golf architecture are kind of to one and the same. One of the things that's frustrating if you if you consider this in our form, is that, like you know, in order for work to get done, it has to be
commissioned by someone. Like you know, if if I'm a famous, if I'm a painter, I can just paint whatever comes to mind, right, and then it's out in the world and people purchase it.
Right.
The thing with golf architecture is like there has to be somebody on the other side that said yes, and like, you know, this is this is an example of an out of the box idea. This is something that hasn't been done before. But in order for it to be done, someone has to come right the twenty whatever million dollar check, you know, whatever the cost of this of a project.
You know, obviously all that change is based off of where the land is, where you know, what the soils are all that, but let's just say twenty million dollars. Someone has to write the check for the twenty million. It doesn't just get to get done like a lot of other art forms. Like I have this cool idea, I'm going to do it, and that's I think, how a lot of famous art happens. It's like, oh, I want to do this. I'm going to write this song, you know, and I'm going to do it in my
basement and this is and then it becomes famous. Like with golf architecture, there has to be the other side that accepts it. And you know, this is like it's a very I mean, it's an intriguing idea. I think like it adds variety, like day to day variety. You get different golf courses, right. But then furthermore, it would actually make running the golf course the operational side of
thing things. Once you understood how to set each course up right, it would make it easier because you'd always be ahead, as opposed to like we need to Hey, we have a shotgun tomorrow, we have to get all the greens mode in the dark, Like, oh, we can do this the night before.
I couldn't agree more. I mean it operationally, it does make a ton of sense. And I just I think a lot about what would I like to see if I go somewhere. And I love going to Pinehurst, and like I said, it's one of my favorite places in the world. But you know, there's a lot of stuff there that's I think they need something that's a little
bit more outside the box. I mean, they've had so much success with the Cradle and and everything, you know, all the things they've done in the last ten years, and this just takes a step further in my mind, and to get to do something like that would be amazing. And again it's on one hundred and forty acres, so it's not like we're occupying massive amounts of terrain. These are courses that would be able to be played you know, pretty quickly, uh you know, thirty or six thousand to
sixty five hundred yards, which is fun too. I mean that's kind of a different thing, you know.
So where I'd push where i'd push back on Like you know, like when this guy announced a lot, I think like obviously Will Bardwell was I think championing you guys.
I wonder if he knew the plan. But I think like one of the things that I thought a lot about with like golf resorts is you know, Pinehurst is in the position of like say, like a Microsoft if you think about it in terms of like the golf landscape, right you know, in a way, they're in the position because of a risk taken in nineteen one hundred by Toughs to build destination winter golf in rural North Carolina.
I mean that was their big risk, right you know, like everybody has to take a risk at some point, Right, Mike Kaiser hired David McClay kidd in a way at that point, making that taking that risk building a golf course in remote Oregon on the coastline now means that he doesn't really have to take risks because he's you know, proven himself. Pinehurst, it goes all the way back to
nineteen hundred. They have all this history, right in a way, they take a risk so long ago, and obviously like this on this is also why innovation always tends to happen outside of the establishment, right you know, in a way, like your all day pass at Sweeten's Cove is an innovative form of golf, and it happened outside the like outside of like a traditional golf landscape because I think almost in a way those resorts think of like, we
can't screw this up. They're in these like if if something, if they try something innovative and it screws up, everybody knows that is a cossal failure versus like I build this golf course in in wherever and it doesn't work fully, nobody knows, right. I just like that's like I would think the tip of the opposite side of of like doing it at a resort. But you know, like I'm super intrigued and from like a a golf architecture moving forward stamp point. I think it's like extremely important for
somebody to be pushing new ideas. And I think there are architects that do push new ideas, you know, obviously, like a lot of architects push new ideas. But you know, the frustrating thing is it's on the developer side of the foot to say, Okay, we don't need eighteen holes of championship golf. We can do this different thing.
Yeah, I mean you have to have the medici, you know, to to fund the fund the artist. I mean I've thought about that a lot. I mean, in one of my biggest frustrations, you know, prior to us quote unquote making it. I think we've made it now, But in the days where we were having a hard time, it was, you know, immensely frustrating that I couldn't go out, like you said, and go down into the basement and write
the song. I couldn't. I have all these ideas, you know, Tad and I have these ideas, we have these concepts, these things we want to do, and to have to rely on someone else is tough, you know, my my, You know, the resorts are corporate and down the middle, and a lot of times I get that, but hey, at the same time, I'd say, the proofs in the pudding. I mean, we deliver and you know Landman basically sold out like that, Sweeten's Cove sells out in five to
ten minutes. Red Feather is going to be very successful. You know. We take pride in our in our courses working. And the other thing too, is is I mean, you know, I'm remembering my quote from your podcast that we did when you know, the third podcast. You know, when I find it's like, if we finally get this opportunity, I mean, we are going to be like crazy, you know, I mean, if we got that we are not fucking it up. Period. Okay, we are going to deliver. And you know they've got
nine hundred and something makers. I hope Tom calls me. I mean, there's plenty of room to do it in.
Terms of like when you look at when you look back, when you think about past projects, you know, like I do this all the time. I think about like what can I do better? What can I do this? Like I think every you know, every off season, you think about your favorite sporting athletes. It's like, well, man, if this guy could develop a jumper, he'd be lights out.
Do you do you do that? As architects? Do you guys ever talk about like think like, you know, what if we could get a little bit better at this, or we could do this a little different. And has there been an instance of like you've you've made a slight tweak to the way you do things that have led to improvement, or there are things that you know, hey, we should get a little bit better at this. I'm just curious nobody ever talks about this stuff. And I wanted to ask you.
No, absolutely, I mean I think that, uh, you know, Tad and I are both inquisitive people, and we talk all the time, but just me and him. I mean I talked to him an hour or two every day. And one of the things that comes up in conversation is, you know, we'll say something like, I really learned a lot on that project. You know, we learned something there.
Every single project teaches you new lessons. I mean, we've learned new lessons at Red Feather, and you learn everyone teaches you new things, and and you know, I think we're always trying to We don't ever want to be copying anybody else, So we're constantly kind of probing at the edges of you know, doing new things, new expressions of what we're what we're doing. But at the same time, we never want it to be We never wanted to
not work or feel contrived. I mean, so there's a there's a balance with that, and I mean there's a few things were you know, maybe yeah, you know, maybe we should have done this a little bit different, and you learn from it. But yeah, I mean that that's that's part of the artistic process. I mean, it just is work because we're kind, you know, as much as a critic, you know, might look at something that we do and say, oh, you should have done this or that.
I mean, I can promise you we have gone through all those conversations a million times over, and you know, we're always trying to do it, you know, like I said, a new look, a new a new style. I don't This is kind of a contradictory comment.
But.
I want people to be able to walk onto a King Collins golf course in fifty or one hundred years and say, there's something about it. This is a King Collins. Okay. But at the same time, I really don't want them to just be able to look at it and go, oh, that's a King Collins. Does that make sense.
Yeah.
I don't want to be I don't ever want us to be repetitive. I want each of our clients to get a new, little special present from us. Each one is a new little gift, and we have to find a new way each time to create that little flare,
this little thing. We've got this little project going on right now, and Mark Berger built this cool little role that's unlike any role we've had in any of our other Greens, And I was like, God, that is so badass, in like, that's part of the little gift to the client, Like that's something we haven't seen before on one of our courses, and so each every one you're and it might be something small like that, it might be something bigger.
But every time you're trying to find something, find a new way, if that makes sense.
Last question before we get you out of here, where would you like to see golf architecture go? I think we're obviously at a point there's a lot of work, there's a lot of projects going on, and a little bit of an inflection point. As you know, there is a new crop of yourself, included architects getting a chance. You know, what general direction would you like to see architecture go? Or one direction?
You know? I think you know one thing Tad and I talked about in twenty ten. It's hard to believe when we started King Collins was it. You know, if we can just get one in the ground, we can we can build on that up. And the point we were making that was in the middle of a very bad recession downturning golf, was that, you know, golf is gonna is gonna be down, but we felt like if we can come out of it with something in the ground, with a new wrinkle, you know, we'll we'll get opportunities.
And we knew also at the same time that there was a glut of a lot of very uninteresting, uninspiring golf out there, and that this whole movement and I think, you know, you've ridden this wave. I mean, no laying up. I mean we've ridden it. That this new interest in golf is reactionary towards again, sorry, this earlier era of very boring, kind of punch the ticket kind of stuff.
And so you know, we could kind of feel that, and there is to me still and I talked to some golf developers about this, there is not a not yet satisfied desire for new and compelling and interesting golf. The population will still go and seek that out. And you know a lot of times maybe that is refurbishing something that was old, or finding opportunities in underserved golf populations. I mean, there's a lot of great golf cities out there that essentially are underserved. I mean, look at Atlanta.
I mean, for instance, Okay, there's tons of golfers there, there's compelling.
Ground around there.
There's lots of golf courses, but none of them are real good, at least the ones you can get on. And it's like if somebody built an amazing public facility there, it would print money. I mean, there's still going to be opportunities like that. So I think that it's to get to your question, I mean, I think it's kind of just resetting the old ways and and and just
finding finding the right opportunities. And there's there's plenty of opportunities in these in places too, to go where where you have this inverse relationship of low quality golf to high demand, and that's not satisfied yet. So I remain bullish about prospects for the future. And and and there's a lot of young people are gonna get to do meet things and that that's great.
All right, Rob, that's uh, it's a pleasure having you on. We're gonna have you on in a shorter time duration than than last you know, the five years or four years in between episodes.
Yeah, man, it was great to talk to you again. Can't wait to can't wait to see you again. Sam.
Yeah, I can't wait to see you. It's spent too long, it has and we'll keep in touch. But people can find you. You're on Twitter and Instagram, and then you have your website, King Collins It's at Kingcollins goolf Design dot.
Com, Kingcollinsgolf dot com, and then King Collins Golf on Twitter and Instagram.
So thanks Rob and we'll talk soon.
Awesome.
Thank you Andy, Thank you for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast. As a quick reminder, we have event registration. As I mentioned before in this episode, event registration went live for Club TFE members this week, but for the general public if you are not a Club TFU member, they will It will be up on Monday. So the events that are open as as it stands now are the Boomerang at Seoul Park, the Ill Hants redesigned Soul Park in Ohi, California. Wonderful place to spend
a day playing golf, really laid back event. The Steam Shovel at Lawsonia that is on that is in mid May on a Saturday in mid May. Fantastic William Lankford Theodore Moreau Golf Course, one of my favorite golf courses in the Midwest. And then we also have Hollywood The Blockbuster at Hollywood Golf Club, widely considered Walter Travis's best
golf course. That's in New Jersey, and that's in June as well as the Dog Bowl at Yale, so at the SETH Rayner, C B. McDonald, you know a place that you kind of have to see to believe how big and bold the architecture is at Yale. The dog Bowl will be the Saturday after the Blockbuster, which is in kind of the mid to end of June, so that will be all those will be available to everybody on Monday, January twenty third. So thank you for listening
to Friday Egg. We'll be back next week. We've got some new Podza in the hopper and look forward to talking to you guys again soon