Riley Johns

You know, I never you know, my father was never a member at a prestigious club, and and so I never really had a you know, golf centric kind of background. I came from more of a you know, I love the outdoors.

it's a beautiful part of the country. So you know, I spent a lot of time outdoors, and and you know, we we you know, I was always a kid that was we'd always we'd have sandbox right, We had tongo toys, and we'd you know, we we'd shape things with the sand and build, you know on our version of a big hydro dam and get the garden hose and fill it up to the brim and you know, breach the hydro dam and watch the sandbox flood and you know, do those kinds of things. So, you know, that's kind

of how I grew up. And a lot of my summer jobs included outdoor you know type work, whether it be land landscaping or land surveying, golf course maintenance, or ski lift construction or even you know, a lot of civil kind of you know, outdoor civil projects. And so you know, I was never you know, other than being the ball boy picking up golf balls and doing golf course maintenance. I was never really part of golf until

later on in my life. And that was when I was doing golf course maintenance that I realized that, you know, I really enjoyed golf as a sport, but also the whole design aspect, uh and the strategy that came along with it, and just the whole you know, golf as being h you know, something that meet you know, the development like that was one thing I, you know, never thought of as as a kid growing up either was you know, I didn't know there was even a profession

out there called golf course architecture, golf course design. That was something I just never thought of until I remember, Uh, we were serving land serving a golf course. Uh here here in my hometown. My dad was a land surveyor, so I've you know, worked with him quite a bit. And we're surveying, you know, a golf course. And this was before GPS and you know that fancy technology now that you can pretty much do it from from a computer.

We had to go out in the into the four, into the bush and you know, a cut a cup line so he could get the shot. And I remember cutting his cut line and you know, about two hundred yards down he said, okay, and I'll move the you know, move the steak over to the left, okay, and I'll put that on the ground now right down eighth green, right. And I'm here in the middle of the forest and going on eighth green right here. This doesn't make any sense.

And that was kind of a kind of an AHA moment for me as far as wow, golf is a big development and there's people that you know, are are fundamental in the creation of golf and it's something that needs to be traded. So, you know, I went on to working for you know, various golf course related entities, whether it be you know, doing golf course and maintenance. You know, I worked. I worked actually at a golf

course here in town where I did. I worked on the maintenance, true in the morning, and then I worked in the kitchen at night. And so I was working you know, twelve hour days, uh, getting up early and staying late and just kind of lived at the golf course for for an entire season. So I was it

was an interesting, you know, kind of interesting aspect. Two, just to being involved in a golf course where you can kind of see the operations from all different at different angles, was you know, that was that was pretty interesting too. And you know as I as I you know, decided to kind of take this, you know a little bit further. I I, you know, sent some sent some resumes out and got on a golf course contractor team

and started building golf in the Calgary area. You know, just picking rocks on a fairway, you know, like you don't there's no h there's no glorious path to say any of this, and I don't even know if right or wrong. I'm sure as you interview more people, you realize that everyone's kind of taking their own, you know,

path to get to. So where they went in mind was a very hands on, you know, construction path, and you know, working for a golf contractor just really opened my eyes to you know, what is actually involved in creating golf and how much goes into it, how many people are involved, and all the nuances involved in that.

And they also had fantastic you know access to some seasoned professionals and architects and a variety of you know people in the industry who you know mentored me and educated me and taught me, and you know, you know, before you know it, I was seventeen years old and sitting in the dozer and you know, pushing dirt and fell in love with it from that day and started shaping and doing some finishing work, learned drainage and learn

you know, I worked for irrigation contractors. I can you know, install irrigation, So I just kind of learned as much as I could about about golf and golf course design and construction, you know, reading, reading golf course architecture books,

you know, while shaping on a project. Uh, you know, while you know, picking picking people's brains on you know, questions that I had and having access to those kind of people was it was critical, and you know a lot of them were very supportive and and you know suggested that I, you know, I had a knack for it and that I take it, you know, to the next level and you know, keep pursuing it and encourage me to basically you know, go to school was kind

of the next step. You know, I'd been you know, I'd worked on dozens of projects, you know, whether they were brand new builds or renovations or restorations or remodels or what have you. And I want and you know, learning architecture from from books and that kind of stuff is is good, but you know it has its, you know, limitations as far as what you can get out of it.

And and so you know, I've enrolled in the University of Gwelph's Landscape Architecture program with the intent or the focus of kind of concentrating on golf and golf design and golf architecture and you know, and any sort of engineering anything that you know, I took per science as kind of a minor and just kind of piece together, you know, an education that I thought would be beneficial

going forward, and it was fantastic. It was, you know, I've learned so much in that in that four years of you know, things that I just wouldn't be able

to kind of pull from a book. And I was able to you my experience that you know, that I already had, you know, ten years of shaping and and building golf, so new things, you know, and having having a lens surveying background as well, just you know, I felt like I had a pretty good understanding of you know, spatial spatial analysis and three D and development and you know, contours and grading and all that stuff was you know,

pretty pretty natural to me by that point. So I was able to focus my studies more on some of the you know, the meat potatoes are kind of kind of the nuances of design and learn, you know, learn theories on you know, whether it be you know, conceal and reveal, prospect refuge, or you know, any sort of

kind of landscape architecture theories. And then I started kind of looking at that through the through the lens of golf course architecture, and I, you know, I started to find a lot of simil larities and and how and and how golf course architecture and landscape architecture where they met and where they differed. And you know, I was able to kind of learn on a deeper level, I suppose kind of what I wanted to get out of a university and and so you know, that was that

was fantastic. You know, I just paid my way to university was through shaping. So I was kind of just immersed and golf course and golf course designed for you know, for for a long time. And and and then you know, trying to trying to get to the next level. You know, we don't I don't have the luxury of having a you know, a father who was a golf course architect

or a professional golfer or anything like that. So you know, the next and the next step was to hound hound Tom Doak and ask him if he would ever consider, you know, taking taking me on as a as an intern. And that took about three years of letter writing and he finally said, you know what, We're got some projects on the go and in China and a few domestically and and uh just could be the right time. So you know, I jumped on that opportunity. And so I know.

kind of face to face sort of thing. So I don't know if I did the application process properly, but it was more of a you know, how's it going. My name's Riley. If he was ever an opportunity to you know, work with you guys, sort of learn from you, I'm you know, I'm very much like that sort of thing. So yeah, I do remember some sort of contour map and he came up with a designer. But I remember that was kind of very early and maybe the first time I I contacted him, he had something like that

on his website. But yeah, and then yeah, so spent spent a year at him and and the Renaissance guys, which was, you know, outstanding. I did a little a little workout in China with Eric Iverson out there, and but for the most part, you know, I was I was really just looking for the office experience and and you know, trying to learn the business side of the profession. You know, I had enough dozer time and excavator time, and you know, enough golf courses kind of my under

my belt as far as construction and implementation. But the one thing that you just have a tough time learning about in this industry is you know, how to write a consulting reporter, you know how to structure a contract or you know, how do you go you know, how do you you know all the kinds of you know,

business accounting and you know, structuring a company. And just like there's there's so many things that you know, you just can't learn from a book or school and you can only learn by you know, kind of placing yourself in into a situation or working with someone who's done it. And and Tom was u extremely open and and accommodating

and generous. And I spent a lot of time in the Traverse City office helping him with you know, plans, and going on consulting trips with him out to you know, Long Island and you know, golfing golfing with him at Crystal Downs and being able to you know, really have a lot of one on one time with him, and also being you know in the in the den, so to speak, when you know, phone calls are happening and you know, trying to figure out budgets and you know,

working on you know, time construction timelines and you know, getting phone calls from from clients and helping with you know, writing up reports and stuff like that. So that was kind of what I was really looking to get into Zoo because as I'm glamorous, as a lot of people pay think that is, that's like that's a hard thing

to learn in this industry. And it was so important he and he was so open, and it was a it was a it was a big, you know kind of piece still the gap, so to speak, for all my other kind of education.

you know, golf course architects. You get this land, and you get this these contours, and you get all these you know, views and constraints and you know, all these all these kind of pieces to a puzzle that you then need to kind of analyze and then and then and then come up with the best solution you know, for the for that piece of land with you know, the intention of you know, you have some constraints, like you know, golf is eighteen holes typically and you know,

seven thousand yards is a pretty average number for you know that, and you know you want a variety of part threes and fours, but for the most part, you could put you know, you could route that golf course a million different ways on that one piece of land. And you know, I think he really relishes that that

kind of challenge. And and you know, working with him on the A for Students project, you know, being able to you know, sit in the office and watch and learn and work with them on how routing of a golf course not in just one direction, but two directions. You know, that was like that was a master's class

and routing sort of thing. So you know, he's very you know when it comes to to routing, he's very you know, he's he can like another an example is he's when he's when he's taling up his you know, yardages or you know, wants to see what what the power ends up being. You know, I'm maybe it's just the next generation that pulls out a calculator, but he just looks at it and he can he can just crunch all those numbers and say sixty eight and seventy

two yards sort of thing. You're like, okay, I know, and routing is a bit of a mathematical game too, and when you get into the core of it. But I would say that's his you know, what he enjoys doing the most and what he's one of the best of the world.

of putting it. But you know, there's one book that for beginners, Like a lot of people ask me the same question, and it's like, well, you don't want to get into you know, too heavy and stuff right out of the gate, because it's kind of you know, probably boring for most people, but you know, to get to get a sense of golf course architecture, and but also have some visuals to kind of go along with it.

There's there's a book that there's Jeff Shackelford did it with Michael Miller, the painters for the artists, and it's called The Art of Golf Design, and it's it's it's kind of a coffee table book, but you know, it's got a lot of good information in there, just kind of has a really nice way of explaining golf course architecture. It's features, it's principles, it's theories, it's you know, you know, and also give some great examples of you know, it

in practice. But they also do this cool thing where they take you know, they take images or they try to recreate what the golf course used to look like and then paint it so like you can find like pictures of you know, Pine Valley and you know mid nineteen twenty eas and they'll do a you know, a depiction of it. You know, Michael Miller will do a sweet picture of it with you know, paintings and clouds

to just animate it and bring it to life. And then Jeff shack but there is like essays on you know, what the you know, some of these finer features of golf course architecture are like you know, temptation, you know, just try to get into it, but not overwhelming. So, you know, anyone that's kind of interested in golf course architecture but doesn't want to pick up a novel, yeah, and also wants to look at some cool pictures that I would say the the art of golf design is

a good as a good starter. And then for something that's a little bit heavier. You know one book that I always liked, and it's not really heavier, but it's the Golf has Never Failed Me, The Donald Ross Book. I don't know if you've if you have that one, if you read it, but.

quick to pick up. You don't have to sink into it, like it's they're all segregated into small little chapters and some of them are only a page long sort of thing. And you know, I just always like the the way those guys wrote and spoke back in the day, Like they had a way of saying, you know, their quotes are anything that a way of same things in one sentence that you know, in this day and age, it seems like we have to use a paragraph to say

that the same thing. And they just had this this witty kind of you know, way of just making their point. You know, I'm sure you've come across a lot of them, and ye've seen a lot of quotes. They could summarize things so beautifully and and and and succinctly. And who knows, maybe that's also transcended into their adult course design, that the less is more kind of model, Right.

pretty good sense. It's very it's very intuitive now, right, And I think that's maybe you know, what helps me the most is just to be able to understand, you know, from having mode greens you know what, you know, what the what the limitations of a you know, a greens mower is, or what the limitations of a fly mo is when it comes to say, maintaining you know, seat faces, or you know what the implications of sands splashed up on a bunker faces and in a rainy climate and

having washouts and you know all that stuff. So I think it really I think it really does help me actually, and I think and I think it's you know, it just really helps create a full a bigger picture, a fuller picture of the design work at hand, and it just helps inform a lot of the design decisions and I and I find it's going to definitely help, you know,

in the future. I'm very thankful and glad that I had the opportunity to learn a lot of these, you know, from a lot of these seasoned professionals on techniques, whether that's you know, you know, understanding how an irrigation head is wired to why you know pipe sizes need to be a certain size, you know, to get to water pressure, you know, efficiently from one side of the site to the other, and you know all those kind of all those things that perhaps if you were never in the

trenches doing it, you might not even have an understanding on how that works or why. And who knows, maybe maybe had you had that kind of background or knowledge, you might have designed something slightly different. Not that I'm saying no, well, design should definitely be you know, you know, form and function and all that debate, but there's definitely

something something there that's helpful. And I think it just for me, it boils down to a bit more of an intuitive kind of feel to how golf courses function after you've done building.

And and just you know, it's you know, it's not like it's a skyscraper or bridge or a highway or something you know, something of that's that's yea or anything like that, but it's you know, it's a some you know, golf, it's a it's a it's a fluid process, and it's a living, breathing, you know, entity once you're done with it,

and it evolves over time. With this, you know, the elements and and sometimes trying to you know, the hubrits of trying to think that you can figure it all out and control that, you know, you might be handcuffing you know, the potential of a of a golf course or a golf whole by by trying to control all those elements. And sometimes you know, and you'll talk to anyone in the industry who's been been doing this for a while, like sometimes mistakes or unintended you know, things

that happen on a golf course. Inspired, you know, you'll leave it or you get inspired to you know, maybe you use that too. You know, we're gonna we're gonna shape off of that. You know. Funny sometimes you know, things like irrigation blow and if a mainline blows out, that carves this huge casm and you know, on the side of the fairway and go back to the tea and you're like, hey, and this has happened. And I'm sure a lot of people out there that similar situations

happened like this. But you know, an irrigation break could turn into a cool cross bunker pretty quick.

and ideas and and and stuff like that. But you know, I would say, not that he's obscure by any means, but Smiley Thompson up here in Canada as a big, big influence for me, especially being a you know, a member and next door to the bamp Springs golf course, and you know, I haven't seen, seen, and played that, you know, pretty much my whole life. And you know, I would say Stanley Thompson has that had a big influence. And I think he's I think he's pretty underrated too.

I don't know, you know, if he's just overshadowed by the Mackenzies and the Rosses and the Colts and the McDonald's and all that. But he, you know, he was pretty pretty groundbreaking and his ideas, and you know kind of there was a bit of a parallel universe kind of happening up here as those guys were, you know, finding their stride and starting to really push the profession and and you know, discover an experiment and all that.

He was doing the same thing up here, and and he built some amazing golf courses, and you know, he thought really deeply about design. He wrote about it. Uh you know, for instance, I remember seeing this and I don't even know where I've seen it. It's like a graph and Stanley Thompson judus graph. This is probably you know, nineteen twenties, and the graph kind of is his attempt at explaining ebbs and flow of a round of a routing,

and how you know, it's kind of like music. How there's you know, there's a peak, and there's you know, there's an introduction and and you know you'll want to make it too hard out of the gate sort of thing, and you know where to put the parfires in the trees so that so that the course, the routing has a has a has a flow to it that that is harmonious with either the land or the type of golf.

It's in a golf it or what have you. And I thought that was pretty pretty groundbreaking, not just to think about it, but also then to attempt to put it into some sort of you know, visuals that he could then communicate it to others. And you know, I thought that was pretty pretty groundbreaking.

different things. So it's pretty interesting to think of how he you know, kind of tried to come up with a formula like a you know, some sort of put it into context. I'm interested, you know, I I've stumbled across this question, and you know, I've been asked it

a few times. What do you think about the role of the first hole of a golf course because it seems like, you know, there's differing logic where some people think it should be you know, a like a warm handshake, like I think it was Rainer said that it should be, you know, a friendly opening hole. I think Ross was that belief. But then there are others that think that it should be represented of the course to come. And you know, you find these you know a lot more challenging first holes.

I think I think the one is more of a logistics point of view, right, It's it's you don't want to have a log jam on your golf course, you know, after the first hole, so you don't want to make it so for instance, you don't want to make it difficult you know, long hole, wu's say, water and hazards and opportunity to lose your golf ball, and then follow that up with a you know, a par three that's

notoriously you know three pts. So like right out of the gate, you've you've designed a you know, a one two punch that is going to start everyone's around slow. And so you know that's that has nothing to do with anything other than you you know, you've designed you can it's inherent now in that golf course, so it is important. But you know, would just sacrifice a good golf hole for the sake of it being you know, should you you know, should it be a four, should

it be a five? Should it be a long five? Should it be an easy five? Should it be you know all those things. I think it's really site specific. But you know, if if you twisted my rubber arm, and you know, obviously starting with a par three, not that it's not uncomm you know it's uncommon, but it's out there. You know, I wouldn't start a golf course with a par three. You know, A part four Part five I think is preferable. I'm I like the par five starting to just get the golfer out into the

property quicker. And you know, a short five, you know, gives a guy an opportunity to get an eagle right out of the gate. And you know, at the end of the day, I'm all about fun golf and the experience of golf, and and if someone can start their round with a with a birdie, what's more fun than that.

the right guy for the job. And we just had such a good time building it, you know, I would say working and and and also being a foreigner doing working on that project, right, there was a there was another level you know, added to it for for me at least, but navigating the municipal I don't know if geocracy is the right word, but just the corridors of of getting pert a project like this off the ground.

So everything from you know, permitting approvals, you know, having to having to explain and and come up with designs to help communicate to people that are in you know, the municipal government who are not necessarily golfers and look at this as just a you know, an infrastructure type project, right.

So there, so it's not like you're dealing with a client who is all about golf and loves golf and his golf and understand, you know, you had to almost you almost had to explain very simple ideas that you almost assume most people would would would know. But when you're working with a municipality, I mean they're working on all sorts of different projects, right, and they've created a committee to look at the golf course, right, just like they created a committee to you know, revitalize the museum

or the library. Right. It's not necessarily these people are are you know, golf fanatics. So you know, navigating you know the municipal ropes, avenues or whatever you want to call it, and also educating the people who were ultimately hiring us on why we were doing things. I would say that was you know the biggest thing we learned. And you know, everything from like even things like insurance

and bonding. You know, like this the very unglamorous part of the of this industry or this profession is you know, all that stuff matters, and you know, we had to we had to learn it and learn it quick and there was no no room to kind of stumble on something. So that was a that was a quick quick learn for sure.

so they delivered there. We were completely underpowered. So I mean the fact that you know, you just you just you know, spare down and get it done and and work through the problems and problem solved, and and the fact that we were able to do what we did out there with a you know, essentially a D three, a little excavator, tractor trailer, and a skid you know, those were those were I think for all of us. It was the fact that we were able to do it was so little I think was you know, and

that was what we set out to do, right. We didn't want to overcomplicated or make a big production out of it. We just wanted to you know, get in there, get into get into the sandbox, so to speak, and start start creating fun, interesting golf. And you know, when when we when we completed it and we walked away, I feel like we achieved achieve that goal. So that was that was the most I think rewarding aspect of that project.

going back there and hanging out on the patio. I just loved sitting there and watching people either putt on nine or teeming off on one. And I remember seeing a group of seniors, they must have been in their eighties, foursome heckling each other on the first tee and hitting

it down and taking off and starting their round. And right behind them was a he must have been like four maybe five, his first time on a golf course with his dad, and and the dad was telling us that he'd been you know, hitting balls on the range for you know, practicing for this moment, and and and the kid was his first time on a on a you know, quote unquote real size golf course, is what he is, what the kid said, and his dad caddied

for him. And so so now you have this, you know, four year old or five year old following a foursome of eighty five year olds and everything in between. And each each one of them are you know, experiencinging the golf course and having a you know, enjoying it on their own level, which I think for us was was very rewarding.

and turf resort. I call it. It's a I want to I want to find a surf break somewhere in the world that also on the shore has just the perfect landscape for for golf, and it'd be cool to combine a you know, Cabot band in style golf resort where it's about just a golf right, not about the amenities and all that, but just a great piece of

golf golfing terrain. But also there's a surf break and the clubhouse acts as the clubhouse for both the surfing people that are surfing and the people that are golfing. And you know, when there's no waves and it's not pumping out out there, you can go right, but when the waves pick up, everyone kind of goes to the surf breaks. You kind of have, you know, two amenities

at this one resort. And I think if partnering up with a you know, a professional surfer or something like that to kind of get this off the ground would be a dream job. For sure. It would be you know, I think it'd be a hit because I think I think there's a lot of you know, commonality between surfing and golfing, and I think exploring that with some sort of surf and turf resort, uh, I think it would be would be pretty fun.

you know, still continuing to work on. But now I was just hired by golf club out in Vancouver called Point Great and so I'll be there consulting architect and they want to go forward with a long range master plan and kind of reassess their their club and take you know, just kind of take a look a fresh look at it, right They they they want to take a look at what their character is or what their genre is, what their identity is, and you know, there's

some trees that need to be dressed, and you know just overall just kind of starting from from the ground floor. And I'm going to be working with them, uh to help them kind of achieve their goals. And so I'm really looking forward to that as it's somewhat close to my home and you know, as I as I get more into the project, the more I'm learning about the

history of Point Grant. It's it's quite fascinating with the connection that they have, you know, Saint Andrews and the Golden Adra of the nineteen twenties course, and it was laid out or designed by a golfer named David Ayton, who is you know, part of this golfing family from

Saint Andrews. And we discussed this yesterday when his brothers ended up in Chicago golfing there and David ended up going to Vancouver, and you know, they ended up playing an exhibition match against you Harden Smith and Walter Hagen and just some really fascinating, uh you know, tidbits of information that I'm that I'm collecting right now and I'm starting to piece together and and the more I discovered

a kind of more more interesting I get. So so yeah, I'm really excited about working with with Point Gray and and exploring a bit more on this. David Ayton the guy was and why he came out to Vancouver and designed a golf cour m hm.

your decisions. Basically, it's, uh, you know, the last thing I want to do is come to the club like, yeah, I've seen I've seen a feature that looked really cool and New York was put it here, right, Like, it's not about it's not about me, It's not about my chase or you know, because golf is you know, so subjective that it's you know, there's no right or wrong answer. There's only you know, I think better and best sort

of thing as far as an answer goes. But you know, I'm a huge believer in the design process, you know, evidence based design. You know, my theory is, you know, a well researched project basically just designs itself. Right. So the first thing I do is just kind of a mass and collect as much information and data and history and you know, just take a look at what's there, you know, and then and then get their wishless the client's wish lists basically, and say well, what do you

what do you guys want? Right? And a lot of times, you know, what it is that they that they thought they want isn't isn't what they wanted, right, So I don't necessarily ask them what they want. I just kind of asked who's it for? Right, And why why do you want it for them? And then I'll try to figure that out, try to get a little bit deeper into the in the subject for them, and and kind

of let that guide all my decision making. So you kind of get all your you know, you get goals and objectives and and you kind of marry that with your site analysis and your site inventory and and and then you pull from pull from your own experience and what you've seen and built and and and then try

to marry all those together into a concept design. And hopefully, if you've done your your research and you got your goals and objectives were all right, your concept design should address the club's needs or desires and and then some sort of thing. So that's kind of where I started basically, And that comes back down to learning that stuff from

you know. The design process is the same for landscape architecture, is the same for you know, skyscraper architecture, you know, or any sort of designing is is kind of you know, the core of it is always comes from a design process, because that's that's kind of where you get into the the soul of a project and you learn, you know, why why are we doing this? Right? Yeah? It's not a not an easy question always answer.

other factors. And I don't know if this is a necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but just the seasonality, you know, we're just we're just that much colder, and you know there are seasons just that much shorter, and so it would be a you know, it would be a tough kind of question from a financial point of view, you know, if that's kind of the angle that the question was was a more of a you know, financially, is it feasible or is it you know, if you're

a billionaire and you want to do it, and you just want to cool golf course and making money is not the objective, then then yeah, it's definitely definitely feasible, and then everything to being a perfect place for for golf, except for the fact that there's low population and harsh, harsh climate, so you know, the isolation in the weather is are kind of the two factors. But you know, it's hard question to answer. I would say soap, but it depends what your criteria are.

we've got this beautiful piece of land, it's sand. We can sculpt this, no no problem. Build a golf course, you know, for very reasonable price. But then it's like, who's going to maintain it?

you know, putting services and the purpose. And I feel like a lot of golf courses and this might just be a you know, a result of things is like computer aided design, and you know, the form follows function, which is probably more of what it is, you know, due to drainage, you know, does screens just have this kind of typical if we put some undulation in it, you know, we have how this looks like a shape like a potato chip, you know, and we got three exits right for water to drain off of it, and

you know, make sure that we're sloping that towards the golfer so it receives the golf ball. And then that's it, right, That's all they really put into it. And you know, for me, some of the most interesting aspects of seeing cool golf courses around the world. Socially quirky golf courses is how non typical their putting surfaces are, and how how much how varied they are, and how much variety

is in them. And also you know how you couldn't build some of those things today because people would say, you know, I don't know how am I supposed to maintain that or where you know, you can't have one exit for water and you know you can't you can't have it sloping away from the golfer or you know,

whatever whatever it is. But for me, that's kind of the that's the essence of a good golf courses is an interesting, perplexing set of greens that make me really, uh, played the course differently the second time I play it, after I learned you know, where to be, where not

to be, and all those kind of things. So I think a lot of guys just don't really put the the thought into the greens as much as as perhaps they used to, or maybe back in the day it was less of a there's less criteria and it was a bit more freehand, and you know, the you know, functions very important, But to design a green based on drainage parameters well, you're going to get a green that looks like designed by drainers parameter right, So it's a

tough it's a tough one. But I would say I would say greens if if I had to choose one one element on a golf course, I think is you know, critical to the sport. But it's also not getting enough thoughts.

what was done there. What Mackenzie did there was he took the green shape was kind of dictated by where it sat on the land sort of thing. So you know, the whole six thousand square foot oval thing just does not apply to there, because there's there's some narrow ones that kind of kind of snake or zigzag or kind

of have an S shape. Because or even if it's you know, super wide but not deep, right, it's a you know, and it was all a product of him fitting a green into a particular area, but then using that area as the inspiration for what the green does sort of thing, you know. So it's kind of like you went, he's just really masterfully put some amazing green

and they just fit the site so well. And I think, you know, a place like that, I think wouldn't be nearly wouldn't be half the golf course without the greens

that they're blessed with. So I think, you know, I think, I think really you know, looking at greens from different perspectives, you know, like you mentioned, you know, whether it's the slope that sloping towards you or left or right right, the left back to the front, you know, that kind of thing, but also the shape of the green right the the you know, I think that's also something that's overlooked. And you know, I don't I may, I don't know. I

don't know why. Maybe it's has something to do with it's easier to mow with a triplex, or it's the most economical to build, or it's a it's a standard that somehow seeped into the work golf, construction or design world. But you know, I'm I'm a huge fan of of oddly shaped greens like yeah, you know, shaped in the like an L or an S or you know an e. You know, like the E green. You know, those are the kinds of greens that I find the most fascinating.

And you know, pass the tempoint I think just did it beautifully.

sea is spectacular. But you know, the only shame is the routing has kind of been named with UH been introducing the new clubhouse back in the in the eighties, I think it was their late seventies or now it was early eighties, and they kind of injected the clubhouse on the fourth hole, which should have been the fourth hole, which is now first. And this goes back to our conversation about flow ebbs and flow kind of the you know, the how the course plays from a from a golfer's

experience perspective. They've they've kind of they've changed that. They've altered it. The DNA of the of the routing has been altered. And you noticed it right because it was a it was a nine out nine in routing, which was super cool for you know, a mountain course. But you know, the Devil's culturing was kind of at the end of the you know, as you at the turnpoint and you know, it was an anticipation factor and you know, there's there's all these kind of emotions play that he

did so well. And it's the opening tea shot over Spray River from on top of this cliff and it's just like, man, it would have been such a good golf course when it had first opened back you know, back in the day. So I'm a huge fan Springs fan. I could go on and on about it. Highland Link definitely,

second h once again, the routing is phenomenal. Sammy Thompson I thought was a genius when it came to that, and he was able to get you, you know, from the coast up into the hills, up into the mountains, into the valleys and then back down to the coast. And you know, there's a lot of elevation that you climb but you just don't notice it. And some fantastic golf holes, some fantastic fairway conters. I love the fairway

concuring out there. Just the old world, rustic dimple, you know, just just has so much character, and so does you know kpe Branton in general. So it's like it's it just fits its environment, just feel things. And then I would say, I go with Jasper, had to go with the local the local courses, you know. I Jasper is just such as it's a little bit different than Barff. It doesn't have the mountains, just looming over you, and it doesn't feel like you can hit your golf ball

off the cliffs sort of thing. But it just has this just real subtle and artfully routed and interesting golf holes that it's just it's just pleasant. Right. So I would say those are my three, but I mean there's more obscure. What I mean, Capilano fantastic. They will play that a week or two ago, and once again the routing phenomenally is able to get you all the way

down down the hill. You got these just cool you know, it's kind of like an urban, urban kind of feel to it when you're looking at the skyline of Vancouver and it's got these big, old, you know, stumps that are kind of scattered everywhere from when they built the place, and it's got a neat character to it. But one

other Stanley Thompson track. Oh, there's a there's a course in Canora, which is in Ontario, right on the Manitoba Ontario border, and it's a Stanley Thompson track and it's, uh, you know, I like to think it's it's kind of

like Yale. You know, it's got a built on the rock, right, and they weren't able to last all the rock away, and so they kind of just followed the contours of the of the bedrock and had some really cool, bold, bold, big undulations, big hog back plat you know, bear ways and just greens tucked tucked around the property and just has this really neat feel to it. And I don't think a lot of people played played it, but you know, Canor Golf Club is whenever I'm out in that area.

That's that's kind of one of bat Mel versus the first two golf courses that I go play a lot of good Stanley Thompson tracks up here.

of smart routing and why. But you know, makes you wonder Stanley met Colt at any point and talks because I mean, how does someone go about, you know, being new to a brand new industry right, let alone new to a profession, but there was no no one else doing it, and he gets so many things right out of the gate, especially with routing right to wonder where he picked if maybe he was just antural on it and is a very intuitive thing for him, or maybe

he had some contact with someone like Colt well you know, in Toronto, and uh, the I don't know, maybe I'm just I'm just conspiracy theory right now, But I don't know. That's always boggled me how someone comes out of the gate and gets so much right without you know, ever having the failures to learn off of right he did. He did a lot of good golf courses early on in his career and some some major ones too, you know where he uh really pioneered things.

it's it's Canada's Canada's year. This year is a disappointing one last year not having anyone in there, but this year we got we got a few teams that could go all the way.

why they you know, so prolific in architecture. But you know, I think I think taking template holes and using them as inspiration and adopting them and tweaking them, I think I think that's the Yeah, I think that's the important thing of template holes, not necessarily replicating them, if you know what I mean. It's so I don't know, I'm gonna go overrated. Yeah.

of the because of the plateau. You had to you had to choose whether you're going to kind of put the faith in your in your iron shot and you kind of you know, landed in the punch bowl and and and you know a bit of a bit of a throwback to you know, the the Dell Hole in Ireland sort of thing where you just swing it and the anticipation of going around to see where it actually is, you know, or you or you played it kind of more strategically where you uh, you know, knock your ball,

uh and and you keep it in sight and then you put the premium on your on your lag putt sort of things.

out of the rut. I guess he'd color you know, kind of pulled it out of the pulled it out of its rut and and you know, went for it and and you know, started building architecturally sound golf courses and golf holes that you know are very you know some there might be a lot of controversy around some

of them and and all that. But I mean, without without putting yourself out there, without taking that risk or that that that leap, you know, we're all going to just be doing the same thing and just kind of you know, reak or stayed in the same golf courses all over, you know, over and over, and it's just something I think that he kind of took and shook shook the hornets nest and got people inspired and got people talking about golf and golf course architecture, and you know,

started doing all these you know, amazing things as far as building you know, like some you know, like the Island Green, I mean like that. You know, he was he went and did it, and so I would say he's underrated for what he did for golf course architecture.

And I think history is gonna look back upon it as as that being a defining moment, right and in in in the lineage of golf course architecture, because I mean you just look at the guys who who were inspired or preceded him, right, Yeah, it's an amazing list of you know, whether it's Dope or Bill Cooorr or Rod Whitman, Right, these guys are all kind of students of the Pete Dye era, and golf is better for it.

I think so. You could search Riley John's too. But Riley, thanks so much for the time and we'll look forward to UH to to watching UH what's what's next for you?