Welcome back to part two of our podcast with Patrick Boyd.
Do you miss Part one?
Check it out and learn about how Patrick got into the club making business and where's love of golf course architecture comes from. We got a lot of great feedback from everyone on part one that's been much appreciated, and I hope you enjoyed Part two with Patrick Boyd.
I miss a green.
For example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a.
Egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, fridagggg bride egg lie, I'm about ready to run off the course.
Sweetens is certainly in the fun category. Abandon is the fun.
It's like being out there for four years completely changed my perception of golf and like how I value, like just how I appreciate and enjoy golf.
What are the other most fun golf courses?
The other most fun yeah that.
You've played, Like, what are your like just the places that you know it might not be the best golf course from an architectural standpoint, if like you know you're looking at architect but like, what are the most fun places that you've.
Played most fun.
That's gonna take me a minute. Man.
It's okay. We got minutes and hours and we can cutch up.
I mean the thing, you know, I I think, you know, the two of us have kind of a mutual love of Seth Rainer and Stevie McDonald and Banks I have. I have so much fun going out and playing their golf courses because you kind of know what you're getting. But every course there's just there's just all these little nuances in every version of an Eden or a double Plateau or an Alps or where the strategies are going to be kind of similar but where they were built and the land is going to be different.
That's I don't know. I have.
I probably have my most fun playing their golf course is just because I just kind of enjoy maybe it's like the OCD in me or something. I just like enjoy the similarities and differences it's playing their courses.
I think that's there's something to be said about. That's why everybody loves the Masters is they know what's coming. They know and and I think that's something that's you you know, it's in a sense, it's unique to them, even though a lot of people will say like their courses aren't unique, which is I think a horrible take. It's I think it's just a horrible take because I think a lot of a lot of the best holes at rain or courses and are the ones that aren't the templates.
Oh dude, Like we've had this conversation how many times about the back nine at Short Acres.
Yeah, and too.
I means in general.
Let you, eleven might be the best.
Rader par five like anywhere?
Fifteen?
You mean fifty?
I'm sorry fifteen yeah, fifth ypt Sorry, fifteen might be the best, right, dude? Eleven is just like it's just so awesome and dramatic and just I.
Don't know, it's just a foundful.
Yeah, it really, it's just an awesome It's an awesome brole. And I've seen people. I've seen people play from down below before too on eleven.
Yes, Oh I've been down there.
I saw somebody big park from down there.
I've made par from down there. That's it.
That's here, dude.
I what do you hit off the TV?
What do you hit off the TV that puts you there? You know?
I I know I can make par from down right? I know I can't. You can't. It's hard to make par if you pull it left. So if I'm gonna miss, I'm gonna fan it. I'm gonna fan it right, and I'm gonna go down there and I'm gonna have a completely blind shot. But it's like a it's one hundred and sixty yards or one hundred and fifty yard you can you can hit that shot onto the green, but like if you got to chip out, then you have all of a sudden half to the wedge close. So
it's it's way better to miss. It's like one of those contradictory things. Missing right there, it looks like the worst place in the world to miss. It's not that bad, it's that's I think. It's kind of like what dope does I've never.
Even like, I've never even considered walking up to that tea with the driver in my hands.
Oh I never would hit driver, never, or like.
I usually that's I hit I hit one iron a lot off of tease.
Oh god, I.
I played it the same. It was so fast. My buddy hit a hybrid and it ran like sixty yards into the end of the crap. It was. It was insane. It was the fastest golf course I think I've ever played in my life. The ball was literally like bouncing twenty feet off the ground and just running. It was, and it had this brown tinge. It was unbelieved. It was probably my favorite round of golf.
H Oh, that's the tan. Is hard to be when you see the tan.
Yeah, I've never seen a Chicago golf course play that way, and it was like the most beautiful thing in the world. But you know, it's uh that I just wish more places would embrace the tan.
Such a dramatic it's such a dramatic change from that place from what it was like ten years ago to as far as just I mean obviously all the work they've done out there opening up the vistas, but mainly just how firm and fast they've been able to get it and keep it. I mean, that's golf to me, man, I you know, golf isn't golf without bounces.
That's yeah. Yeah, it's unbelievable what they hit at that place.
So you're moving out to abandon uh Oregon, Bend, Oregon? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, it's uh. I always say I psychologically have moved to Bend. Yes, Sorr, but uh, what uh, how many times.
Of people who move to Bend. It's a lot of people do move to bit.
It's like it's been growing and there's there's there's a bit of golf out there. It's not banded.
Yeah, but uh, what's your what's your power? How would you split ten rounds between those courses out there?
You know, I'm embarrassed to say Old mac wasn't done. The last time I was out there when we when we had scratch and we were in Eugene, that place was almost it was almost a weekly adventure.
We'd go out there. We go out there a lot.
If I had to split, if I had to split ten rounds out there, I'd probably go like I'd probably play six.
Of the Pacific. And this is like I said, I haven't played Old McDonald. The first thing I do when I get out.
There, well you got one, you got one. You're gonna have one at Old McDonald regardless. So you got you got one, goes Old McDonald. And there's an asterisk that could be more.
Okay.
I saw that place.
Ari and I used to walk that.
Place when they were when they were building it, and we saw it kind of being built in and it's it's really an interesting thing.
And yeah, a lot of people I know that.
Are into architecture, when you ask them about that place, it's almost like a litmus test because like a lot of people I know just they aren't fans of it.
I have. I've met fewer people that like it than than don't. But anyway, ten rounds out there, i'd probably go, I'd probably go six.
I'd probably play six Inphiment Pacific, three of them at Trails and and the other one at uh Banded Dunes.
Interesting.
I just not that I dislike not that I dislike Bandon Dunes, but I just like Pacific and Trails so much more.
Yeah, that's a that's the thing with those. It's like it's like picking. Uh. I always say this, like it's kind of one of the things I think about with courses is like there's certain courses like once you get into a certain tier, it's like it's like picking which supermodel is the most beautiful. It's like everybody's going to have a different opinion.
Oh it's like, oh, yeah, I agree, realize.
It's like that's what you talk to anybody too about what you know their their top courses are their top five. It's like when you when you talk to that, you know you're you're flavoring it a lot with your personal preferences. Some people like Furman Fast, some people don't like Furman Fast. Some people like corridors, some people like with there's you know, just everything's kind of colored with your preference at some point when you're.
Talking about golf. But hey, a question I've played, man, Yeah.
A question I asked a ton of people is who do you You already brought up Rainer MacDonald, Who's the most Who's the most underappreciated architect.
Most underappreciated. You know, I'm a fan of Perry Maxwell. I think Perry Maxwell kind of fills that kind of fills that spot. This is kind of like the secret sauce on like a lot of golf courses. I just you know, I think I think the world of prairie dunes and anything of his that I've seen these touched and you know, I mean, Crystal Down's got man one of the best sets of greens I've seen really anywhere.
Although they like they.
You know, they bristle, they're all about like the Mackenzie heritage there. But like I think Perry is Harry's pretty Uh, I think he's pretty underrated or just underappreciated.
Maybe yeah, yeah he I know Who's who's it for you? Langford?
Oh yeah, I'm like I'm a Langford Moreau tragic at this point I think about Langford.
Banks is like another one too that like nobody really talks about. I think Banks doesn't get the great Banks doesn't get a lot of love. And again there aren't like a ton of like great well you got like Whipperwill for his gate.
Somebody told me about this Francis Byrne place in New Jersey. Francis Byrne. It's like apparently Essex County used to own it in New Jersey and it's uh, it's forty five buck public course and it's a it's a it's a it's a bank. So I think I think the first hole is like a road hole. The second holes of Burritz like it's apparently really cool. It's forty five dollars you can go see like mcrain or it's not my my high on my list of.
Have you have you played essex is good? Have you played essex?
Essex's essex is good as well?
Up in Massachusetts or in New Jersey.
In New Jersey, that's.
A Tilling hass right, No, Ross.
Banks, it's a it's a Banks.
I've seen that thing listed. I think they've had like four people with killing.
It's like a Tilling tilling house Bak. I've seen like killing ass back. There are two courses there, and I think I think what you're talking about was part of maybe the part of the original. There was thirty six there originally.
I bet you that was part of I bet you that was part of it.
Well, the thing with those with Langford, Moreau and Banks, I feel like they came to the height of their powers at the worst time the depression hit, and then post depression people were like, how the hell are we supposed to maintain this stuff? And they just didn't understand and.
So much and then so much of it went away because of that.
Well, you know, you play, you play those courses and you see you see what you see. You see very clearly defined areas that were once about. You know, this was obviously a bunker, this was obviously this, but you know, they just kind of taken them.
They've taken them out over the years because they just don't see why it's there. But yeah, yeah, I.
Yeah, it's it's just like the thing I think it is like they were like they kind of turned it up a whole nother notch and then it's like, the uh, society was like, this is unfair. That's what I kind of think is like I feel like Yale started that and then everybody but everybody that saw it after the World War two was like, this is unfair. It's like the fair the fair thing.
Well the people, and then and then trees, and then trees started to become Then then clubs started planting trees, and courses lost a lot of width and character. And I mean that whole kind of that whole stranglehold started in the what the fifties, the sixties.
Yeah, the Hogan, the Hogan effect. Yeah's I feel like Ben Hogan had like a lasting effect on golf course design.
Or just in that sense just how just like what they did to Oakland Hills, what RTG did Oakland Hills, which you know was apparently the nastiest open course ever.
Yeah, yeah, it's uh, what you know, talking going back to Maxwell, I feel like what you said about Crystal Downs, there's there's so many similarities with Prairie dunes and Crystal Downs.
You know, yeah, of course. Yeah.
I mean I said, man, secret sauce. He's a secret sauce.
That's I think, got it. I think about that with Mackenzie all the time. He had Perry Maxwell and he had Rap Hunter Rap. Hunter was kind of just like Maxwell. It makes sense if you're going to do great work, you need great people.
And Hunter worked with him on pretty much everything in California.
Didn't he.
Yeah, I think Hunter was the reason that he came to America in the first.
He came over.
Yeah, and they did in Meata and then Meadow was the first project that they did. M h And Yeah, I mean that's that man. I was spoiled growing up just knowing all that stuff was out there. I didn't play Meto until I don't know, probably about fifteen years ago or so, but like just having Pasa and then you know Sharp just you know, I get out to Sharp once in a while and you just kind of.
See little bits and pieces of really cool stuff out.
There, and then you know, Green Hills was another one obviously. Northwood, Yeah, Northwood. I love the story of Northwood. Northwood was built for the Bohemian Club originally because their camp.
But the Bohemian grown up out there.
It's in Monto Rio, yeah, and the course was originally built for them, and then it just I want to get out there because we used to go We used to go out there. We used to go out to the coast a lot.
Growing up, and and I've driven by the course my dad.
My dad was a Bohemian and I saw the course a few times going going to the grove. But we used to stay out out of Sea Ranch, like around the holidays, and I always wanted to go up there, but I never made it. I just was complacent and played a lot of golf at Sea Ranch.
I don't think that's that far from band So you know.
It's a way south, like it's probably if you if you took one straight down, I bet you, it's probably a five to six hour drive straight down one.
Yeah, that far. You know people do that for sweet.
I'll hit it. I'll meet you. I know they too, dude, I've done it.
I mean, like man, I the day before that, I don't did I. I told you the day before the Ringer, I drove up to play Moraine before they punched it, before they punched it for the winner I drove up, I drove up, I played thirty six, and I drove back and then the ringer was the next day.
It was like that was like a ten hour No, no, it was more than that.
That was like, that was like a twelve hour round trip.
Yeah. I mean that's just for thirty just for thirty six.
That's that's what a true golf lunatic will do.
You know.
It's like, oh, dude, there's there's this one trip we took. I think I told you this.
There's one trip we took.
We rented a car.
It's like when we had Scratch, we had all these appointments, like all over this was like a pull of their story in itself.
But we rented a car.
We were gone for two weeks. We went and went to thirteen states. We were five thousand miles on this rental car. And I think we went to I think we drove to Yale, like we had Yale playing on.
The trip, but we drove back there.
I think two more times in that trip when we were like absolutely nowhere near it because we couldn't think of anywhere else we'd want to play more than Yale.
I yeah, I love Yale so much. Like it's just the best. I don't think there's like it's there. It's as good as anything else in the world in the country, dude, with like.
A little TLC that place could be just like tops, Like it's it's just it's it's just a gigantic golf course on this awesome piece of land. It's rough around the edges. There's a few things that they could update. There's really I mean, but I'm with you, and I know I know a lot of guys that have played a lot of a lot of McDonald's Reiner golf courses. It put that at the very top. I have one friend that likes it more than National. So it's just it's just it's just and what can you really do
because the university owns a golf course, you know? I mean, that's that's like the stumbling point. That's like the that's like the dilemma. I mean, you move three Green back to where.
It was originally?
Do you do a few other You have a double punch bowl.
On the pond, fix the bunkers.
Fix the bunkers.
Uh, you.
Man, it's about that.
Restore restore eighteen green. You see pictures of eighteen Green, How eighteen Green there was originally and it was like freaking wild. It was like, I don't know, it looks like it was probably like twelve thousand square feet. The bunkers were just like gnarly all around it.
What do you think of eighteen?
It's I don't know, man, it's kind of a polarizing hole. It's not I mean, I don't know. It's not it's not my favorite finishing hole. It's not a bad hole. It's just not my favorite finishing hole.
It's are they do you?
What do you think of eighteen? What do you think of eighteen?
I love it?
I just see you? You know what?
I you like blind?
Just you like that uphill blind blind t shot par five.
Here's here's my thing. Here's my thing. It's like that whole place is like to me, if you're a if you're a fair police golfer, you're gonna hate that place if you if you believe in in overcoming obstacles and and that golf is not a fair game.
Fair police.
Yeah, yeah, the fair police. That's my new term. It's the same, like the fair police are the people that thought it was ridiculous that when some player in the US Open short sides themselves into a downslope in the worst possible position on a hole and can't hold the green out of the bunker. That it's unfair that like, oh, you hit it in the worst place you possibly could and you can't hold the green. That's like, that's perfectly fair. That's the fair. Police, I'm.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
You finish thought that's the fair.
So like to me, I think I've started to think about golf architecture, and I think, like you know, when when you have something that's not overly hard, like I don't think the eighteenth that Yale is overly hard. It's hard.
I wouldn't say it's overly hard, it's ale.
But if forces in extreme discomfort, the better the player you are, Like I feel like a twenty handicap, Like it doesn't make any difference to them, you know, they're just it's really wide, it's really open. It's hard to lose a golf ball in the hole. But like for a good player, like it's the most uncomfortable, excruciatingly painful finishing par five, and that that's great, that it fits the character of the golf course so well.
Excruciating.
I mean, yeah, I disagree with you, but it's a pretty severe.
I mean the last time I played the last time I played it, I hit like I was like I was over right over the mound, like and I'm standing there and I have.
The hickory You didn't have the hickory driver in your hand there, did you?
No?
I played I played one round with a hickory ballatta it was you did okay, I barely. I carried I carried the water on one by like two yards like and it makes you think back to like when nineteen twenty five or twenty I played that place.
With I played that place with per Simmon and modern ball I I I but yeah, I can't imagine I just with that's it's just over and you you're pretty long, and you're pretty.
Long with technology.
Yes, so that's you know, but it gives you ninety people could imagine playing it in a suit coat, Yeah, like it would It had to be impossible.
With a wooden with a wooden shaft.
Yeah, that's what I think about.
All that went the ball that went like ten ten fifteen shorter than that ballata ball.
Yeah, so it's like, you know, that's that's the way I look at it, is like, oh, we have it so easy now, Like if you want to tell you want to say that it's unfair, like that's that's crazy to me.
Well, dude, I don't.
I mean, I don't know about I'm sure you probably agree with me, but like, man, that's like to me,
that's like the greatest enjoyment. When you play with Hickory's and per Simmon and Steel and you go out and you like play a good round with that stuff, it's like it's just like hard thought, like it's just it It just I don't know, just makes it feel that much sweeter, like shooting a decent round with that equipment, Like it's it's just it's so rewarding, at least it is to me when I play with that stuff, like I play good round with that, it's like, Wow, I
played with one hundred year old golf clubs and you know this is what I broke eighty with them, Like wow, that's pretty impressive.
That the uh, you know, the par fives is where I recognize the biggest difference.
Because you're not going to hit a lot. You're not hitting a lot of them in.
Two Like none of them unless you're really good with driver off the deck.
Yeah, you got to hit like a really good shots to make a birdie. And it's such a paradigm shift from you know what it is today you want to do overrated? Underrated? Sure, all right, we're gonna start with.
You know how we feel about are, how I feel about pebble, overrated, underrated courses, architects.
What bermuda grass?
I know how you feel about it.
I mean I've been thinking about it. Obviously, Like living in the South, you don't really.
Have a lot of alternatives. So it is what it is. But it has its.
Shortcomings as far as how sticky it is around the greens.
Uh, but it just grows andy, that's the thing. It's just it's hard.
It's hard to like under underrated or over it. It It just yeah, it's it's like the most like four nineteen is like a super weed. It'll grow like through a sidewalk. So I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't know rated.
How's that you can't do that?
Added? Accept will answer, I'll side.
With you because I mean there's other surfaces that I obviously like playing better. So I'll say it's I'll say it's overrated fun when is dormant dry? Dormant dry though, baby, that's about as fun as it gets on Bermuda.
Yeah, you're turning your back on the South. Just think about that. Let's uh what about agent?
What was the first golf What was the first golf course you played? It was all fescue like Bandon.
I don't even know, to be honest, I I do not. I don't have awareness to when when the first course I played. It could have been when I was a kid.
You were you weren't you weren't woke at that point.
So yeah, I'm sure I played one when I was a kid, but I wouldn't have known, you know, Like, what about uh what about A W. Tilling Hast?
I mean he obviously did some great work. Then again, he did a lot of stuff like in the thirties during like did he he did a lot of WPA projects removing fairway punkers from golf course. It's yeah, great green complexes, but I don't know. I mean, SF's pretty awesome. I haven't played a ton of his stuff. I've played San Francisco probably a dozen times or so, and it's pretty fantastic.
But I don't know. I probably air towards overrated, all right.
Yeah, I uh, I haven't seen enough of his stuff. I got to do a big Northeast trip where I just crank out. Sometimes I played.
I mean, I I've played a SF. I've played a SF about a dozen times. I've played. I played Philly Cricket before they did work out there. I know there's a few more of his courses that I've played. I'm trying to think off the top of my head.
But what about you, guys?
What about Ross? What's your stand? What about Ross? What do you think about Ross? I think underrated.
I think he's underrated because he did so many courses and like none of them really.
Stink, No, none of them, none of them they all.
Yeah, I'm with you one hundred percent. And it's just it's so weird when people like talk about, like, you know, oh, Ross number two, number two, but number two is kind of a typical, and you know, number two is kind of a typical of most of his other golf courses. I think Ross is delicious, man. I played a lot of great Ross golf courses and I have not yet to see a bad Ross golf course.
What about the North Carolina sand Hills.
I'm embarrassed to say this, but I have not been out there yet. I've lived out here for nine years.
I have not been out there yet.
I've been trying to get out there before I move out of here, but I haven't been out there.
And there's a lot I need to see out there.
What about what about uh the PXG troops.
I'll tell you something, Man, if Bob Parsons was in front of me right now, I would probably like knock him over with a bear hug, just thanking him so much for what he's done for just how golf equipment is perceived and sold these days. He's like the patron saint to me of like all these boutique brands, because if he wasn't doing what he did, because I mean I had some some works, you know, we were we were doing him be custom products, similar price point, but
we were really an outlier. There was nobody else that was offering something similar. It was more expensive, and you know kind of you know, it's the stumbling point. Well, you know, all of a sudden, you know there's golf clubs on the market that are the market accepts that are you know, three thousand dollars or so for a three through pitch set, and there's wedges that are seven hundred dollars and people are buying them all of a sudden.
These boutique brands have an opportunity to have a foothold in the market to offer something completely different than what they do. So I mean in that sense, I'm a man. I'm a huge supporter of a huge supporter.
There's in that regard.
And I mean, you know their equipments they make, they make a nice piece of equipment if you you know, if you're really into technology and you know fast faces and forgiveness, yeah, okay, and high bound they their irons are pretty high bounds.
But there is kind of like, uh, I have a lot of like hipster coffee joints by me, and then you go in them and you hear the people like, you know, they loathe like Starbucks, and it's like you're in business because of Starbucks. Like they made it past. Yeah, they made it acceptable to charge three dollars for a cup of coffee, four dollars, five dollars for a cup of coffee. Like that's why people come to your place now because they realize, like, hey, you've got a better
product than Starbucks. Like they they're they're the Gateway drug. P XG is probably very similar for I never had thought about that before.
Yeah, it's a it's i mean, they they That was a huge paradigm shift in the market as far as how you know, the price point that people accepted to buy golf clubs.
It it really changed.
I mean we had, you know, five years ago when Scratch was around, this was you know, it was a much harder proposition. And now you know, the price point that we're at with what we sell, it's you know, people are willing to pay it because you know, we offer we offer you know, very very different product from I mean it's very traditional. We make golf clubs like they were made fifty sixty years ago. But if businesses,
you know, they weren't around, who knows, I don't. I don't necessarily know that there would be the market that there is now for that stuff because of you know, just being you know, being an option.
And being completely different from from them.
I mean it's just about anything needs a foil I think to be you know successful.
But uh so, uh let me ask you this question, if you could bring back you know, one piece of golf equipment, like one club from the you know, yesteryear and make it like in Vogue again, what would it be? And then what was what was the worst? What was the what was the most gimmicky concept of say the nineties and two thousands.
I mean, I don't know, because there's not just like one club I can just think of. I mean, I wish people would like embrace or at least go out and try playing golf with with vintage golf equipment. So my club would be like probably just that genre of per simon head steel shaft or wooden shaft.
I just think it adds a lot.
Of value and appreciation of golf, and I think a lot of people should at least just try it and just gain an understanding of what playing golf is like with that stuff. U And I mean I've kind of made a pledge to myself next year to I'm probably going to play all next year.
With just for simmon. I mean, I don't know why not.
So if you want in on that, Batman, let me know, Uh, the worst most gimmicky.
Man there are?
There are so many, and it's like because you can pick all kinds of them, like Callaway had that that C four driver that was like there river like the thing. Yes, it was like it was horrible, but like the thing is is like they took what they learned making that driver, and then the first like composite like metal and carbon.
Driver was next.
Like the first fusion driver came out right, I was like this quantumly it was like, oh, let's just make this like it's just like horrible, horrible driver and learn about this technology and then apply what we learned into something that's actually really good. Because that first fusion driver was it was a pretty big deal when it came out that that.
Caravan driver was like the worst feeling driver.
Dude, it was horrible. It was it was terrible.
You know, club that you didn't mention in the The five most influential thing was the club was the ping T s I s I driver. Remember that one, the black one?
Oh I do remember that one.
Yeah, that had the had the plastic hozzle and had the K on the crown. That thing was a pretty big deal when it came out, and that was.
Like everybody used that.
That was like early two thousands. Yeah, that was pretty popular.
M M.
Yeah.
We could I could talk about that if you wanted to, Like that's like a that's like a many hours conversation, and I don't think we had many hours to talk about it. Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff.
There's a lot of there's a lot of little stuff like that, like you know.
What about the person and like oh with the diamond.
Had the diamond, the diamond the diamond dust.
On the faces and then the car byte was the other one. Taylor made made a wedge like that that had the car byte face.
They had the Nubbins too with the basketball.
Yes, yes, no, yes, I do actually think that somebody left the Nubbins at Sweeten's Cove and it may may still be out there. Dude, I've out fell over when it showed up. I was like, you gotta be kidding me. There's somebody that's still rolling a Nubbins. But yeah, Taylor made had those balls, the innergel ball that even those plastic tubes. Oh I forgot so weird and like unpredictable.
Like that's like the greatest thing about golf equipment, man, is like its just it brings out the scientists and engineer and like everybody and the weirdest.
Thing is is like, so you know, I've been like on that side.
Of the business for like fifteen years now. It's like, dude, nothing is new.
Like guys were trying to do this, they were blacksmiths, but like the technology and manufacturing methods didn't really exist to really.
Do the designs that they had in mind. And it's it's it's just.
It's unbelievable to me when you look at all this vintage, old antique stuff and you look at almost everything's been tried before, and it's.
Just these just things just keep people just keep trying the same ideas.
The fascinating thing to me is like when you when you're talking about blades, all the really good blade designs you see over and over again, like you you you know you ever noticed like if you look at almost any like OEM blade like single line cut, low center of gravity, like almost every single one of them to a t, is that design because.
It works pretty well?
Yeah, It's it's just you know, I don't know it's irons are irons are? You know? Like so much I think I feel like irons have it. You need to like the way it looks, you know, I got a funny story about a club. I was playing the remember something.
Horrible, Yeah, finish your story of I I just remembered something absolutely horrible from the nineties.
To go ahead.
So I'm playing my practice round at the mid Am and on one of the t's somebody left a Warrior Hybrid, a Warrior.
One of the ones that they set you one of the ones that they set you free in the mail.
Yeah. At a USGA event, somebody was gaming a Warrior.
Maybe it just.
Fit that gap in his bag really well, you never know, man, It's like with Yeah, it's like, man, I tell people all the time with Fairway Woods, Like, man, you find good Fairie Woods, they're.
Like old friends.
You don't kick them out of the bag because you're you know, you just don't find.
Like Zonar Tech. This is the best one they made.
Great they made They made some really great stuff. Back in the day.
They had the SS series that had all the different face profiles. There was the one, two, the three, There was a two five, the three five, There was the S S O seven that had the adjustable hozzle.
There was the MP ninety nine.
It was the had like the gold ring on the outside and the kind of purplish metallic paint.
Maybe really good stuff.
I had a TRC which was like they're kind of hybrid. I had one of those in my bag for a long time.
I still have it somewhere.
I had the SSO three with like an acroshaft. It was just a beast.
I was just like a best off there, like a beast off the tea. It wasn't the easiest off the deck, but it was just an absolute beast off the tea.
Things like that.
Do you remember the Atoms the Atoms fifty to fifty.
That was like that too.
It was just like man, it was just a deep, deep head. And then Adams came out with the Beat. The bt Y came out after, and that was another man. Those things were bombers.
All I remember, like a great product. When it came out.
It was build the building, you know. Adams built that entire company around that single product. Yeah, it's pretty unbelievable because I remember like the stuff.
That they had like early or.
Like late late eighties, early nineties. They had like the airossol I remember what other They didn't really have anything that was like, oh my god, And then that came out. It was like we took a fairy wood and we flipped it upside down and it.
Really really works, and it really really worked, and they built it.
You know, they built an entire business on that. Do you remember. Do you remember in the nineties yon X and I think Yamaha and Marimon they made irons that the heads were carbon fiber kevlar. Yah Marriman had the
DCA where they were kevlar. That was a really those were really weird talking about that stuff because there was I remember there was a member at my club and he would literally like every three or four months, he would hit so many balls he'd have to send his seven iron or whatever back to yon X and they'd send him like a brand new one because you're just wearing out the material. And so yeah, every every like four months or so, they'd have to send him a new eighty X two hundred and seven iron.
It's like the you know, it reminds me of a talking about yon X reminds me of those Cleveland vases with the with the club in front of the club head in front of the hazzle.
They actually they weren't on set like that. They actually those actually have some offset, but the way they set the hozzle up the head the face looked like an egg and they did this is I think this was when roseny'ol first acquired Cleveland. They put there's a vibration of there's like a medallion in the back that was supposed to absorb vibration and they had that kind of egg shape and the hozzle connected really high on the face. They weren't the first company to do that. This Jerry
Barber who wanted PGA. Jerry Barber had irons.
That he made back in the day.
They were called the Golden Touch that were very similar. A hozzle on those that was like, dude, it was like paper thin, Like it's just like the hozzle on those is just like this little it's almost like a putterneck that comes up. But those, you know, PAVEN won a major with those irons, and they actually the first ones were Stinkers, and then they came out with the Plus. The Plus model came out after the original vas and those are Actually I thought those were pretty decent irons.
I mean, they were obviously a little unconventional looking, but they they performed pretty well. I had a VAS one iron when I was in high school. I had that in the bag for a while. I think was pretty good.
What was hideous? Like I heard these.
Awful what major Winner had one with like the worst equipment.
One with the worst equipment. Oh man, that.
Was like a thing in like the seventies and eighties was like guys playing awful equipment.
I love that set.
I love that the set that Johnny Miller one is open with that were I think they were they were nine I think they were nine twenty five or nine forty five. McGregor's where he had sowed where he had like sawed the hozzles off and like bored bored him down, and those are what he those are what he played
for a while. That's like the greatest thing about back then because like there weren't like these huge quantum leaps in equipment from like the fifties to like the seventies, and so guys would play stuff that was twenty years old because it worked. I mean, that's like the thing back then. It was like guys weren't changing clubs because they were tied to some equipment contract and their manufacturer wanted to play this because that's what was on the shelves.
You know, those guys were playing pretty much. I mean they were playing pretty much whatever they wanted, whatever worked. I mean, sure they had store brands that they sold with their name stamped on them, but for most of those guys, they bagged with what worked for them. They'd go to the factory and you know, they'd get they'd
get three or four fairway woods. They'd take them out and they'd hit them and there'd be one that would work better than the rest, and that was the one that went in the bag, and they would, you know, they would trade the other ones off. They'd find a guy that it worked for, and they'd trade it off for something else. And so you'd see that really old
equipment on them. You'd see that old us out on tour, you know, you know, even like in the seventies and eighties, and like I was saying, Freddy played a M eighty five and old McGregor M eighty five for ever until the nineties, it was like, you know, it's a forty year old driver.
It was still out in play.
Hey, what was the thing you remembered the offensive product that you.
Remembered, the those pra those those awful ady x, the alien wedge. There's another there's another good there's another good product of the nineties was the was the alien ledge, And obviously yeah, it was one of the investors was a member at my club. So like everybody at the club I grew up at had one of those in their bag.
My dad had one.
It was like the only thing you could get out of the sand was his alien wedge.
You still see him, you still see him in the wild.
There's someone that has a deep pain when they get into bunkers. It's that's still that's like there's that's like their security blanket.
You still see those things once in a while.
Oh god, you do. I cannying that was a nightmare when he saw one of those.
You're like, oh yeah, that must.
Have been like the most interesting thing doing that, because like you'd see somebody's clubs before you saw them, and you're like trying to figure them out because like I'm kind of weird, like I'll remember people by their golf club sometimes like anything, oh oh yeah, oh yeah, you're the dude that's got the nine ninety b's or like you know, remember stuff like that. So you're you're meeting people and the me like looking into somebody's bag before
you meet them. As like an insight into who they are.
It's like, well, it's funny I work bagroom and caddied so so many times I'd work the bagroom and then I'd like kind of I'd get to pick my loop and I pick you know, Joe Member with their guests, and I had already seen the bags and had it scoped out which bags I was taking. And so many times you're misled by the if you judge off the clubs and you're like god, dang, Like you know, you're like, what am I doing with this guy? He's like a tight ass. You know, he's got brand new clubs, he's
playing blade irons and he can't break ninety? Like what am I doing right now? And I started to learn that I really liked the guy. You find the bag that's super light and the clubs might be a little older, they might be a little a little worn, but like there's nothing no frills about the bag. That's the guy you want. And that's like the sneaky eight that like plays five times a year, but it's really way better than an eight. Yeah, and it's a cool.
Dude, di did it amuse you?
Like when you go play somewhere like National or Short Acres or Oakemon or whatever. Does it ever amuse you to like walk around and look at the bags that are sitting around just to see the golf clubs that people are playing.
Do you ever do that?
Like it's it's maybe it's like a weird habit of mine, but like anytime I'm somewhere like that and I see like other people's clubs out like I'm always like drawn and interested to see like what they have in their bags, and it's it's, it's it's a pretty interesting like what you usually.
See see Like. That's the thing though with me, is I don't pay attention to what anybody's playing because I don't want to. I don't even think that I have I should be playing something else.
Well it's not to think that you should be playing something else, but I mean, I don't know. I guess I'm just a little bit wired differently as far as but I how I look at equipment and.
I'm I'm a bum. I don't have anything fancy going on with my equipment. You're, yeah, I've got like any I got like all old old equipment by today's standards, but of my modern account.
You have so besides, besides the hickory driver, do you have any wooden drivers around that have like a steel shaft in them?
You know what I have that I I love is I have a PET three would Okay, I love that thing.
See that's not and that's not even out of place with the person and driver in the bag.
Yeah. But the problem is as far as the.
Hickory you know, a thirteen degree pet.
Fifteen, I think, I think, come.
On, come on, Andy, you hit that further than you hit the hickory driver.
Yeah, probably about the same. It's not it's like a ten and they're both equally as hard to hit off the ground.
Those things are so sexy, just like this little tiny like just this little pea shooter like I have. I have like all kinds of weird bags like I have, like I have all kinds of weird like retro bags I'll go play with. And I've got like I've got like a nineties bag that's got like my old like tour spoon and my my Founder's club forwood.
And you set those.
Things down and they're just so tiny, but when you catch them solid, they hit so hard. It's unbelievable to me, how hard You can hit a golf ball with those with those things, and they don't really spin because the balls spun like hell, so they were you know, those things don't really spin.
You know what.
You know what I'm eyeing on eBay right now, I've been eyeing it for a little while is the is getting a bathy back in the bag, getting a brassy a baffler like at twelfth afy gotcha, getting all of those old cobra baffler's back end.
One of the laminated one of the laminated wood one.
Yeah, like like a six a six wood or something.
Orlamar made a bunch of those two. That's another one to look for. They made a good Orlamar made some good lamin at Fairways. It had a had a kind of similar brass plate that wasn't quite as as severe. The other one is the have you ever seen the gain tvfore Uh huh. There's a company called that. I don't even know if stan Thompson's still around, but they had a company called stan Thompson.
Not to the Canadian, not.
The Canadian architect, but they have like this really like really severe soul plate where it's like almost like a rudder.
It's like a.
It's like a it's like a it's like a hard v at the soul and that thing can get You can get that thing out of like just about any just gunchy lie.
My mom had one, and my mom was.
Like a magician with it, like you can get it out of just about any lie. That would be something I'd look at too.
You're looking for something higher lost than of course the guinty. Yeah, I don't know if they guinty.
I think you're like twenty, like twenty degrees or so, so it's basically like a.
Five would Let me tell you, the market for the bafflers on E base pretty good. I'm looking at one that's like sixteen bucks.
That's pretty good.
Yeah right.
You should just man, you should have some fun with it.
Put together like like just put together like a weird like nineties small head bag and enjoy that, like in addition to the hickory, because I think just playing with all kinds of stuff is just entertaining. It's just you know, especially if you're pretty good.
You are a good player. Like if you're a pretty good player, I.
Mean you don't I don't know, you hit those things solid. There's not this fast disparagement other than you know, you lose a little bit of carry with something would but it's just fun playing with that with old wood old small woodheads are are fun to play with small metal woodheads, I should say.
I think it really seem way better with modern equipment too.
I would not you know, I would not disagree the rounds that I would play or I would bust out like a you know that when I had that like five year spell or so, when I was playing with pursum in the rounds that I would occasionally play with something relatively modern. I'd use like a three hundred and three fifty cc driver and I could hit those pretty well. But it's just to me, it's just like it just it's such a different focus when you're playing with that equipment.
It's like you're not trying to like kill it, You're trying to hit it solid.
Like have you ever seen those videos of like someone did this posted this thing a while ago that was hilarious. It was like it was like down.
The line at like a tour event in the nineties and you're watching all these tempos and it was just like so different from watching Guys on the Range today because these guys are playing blades. They're playing they're playing small headed drivers, and they're not worried about swinging at one hundred and thirty miles an hour. They're worried about connecting with it and hitting everything pure. And it just
it changes your focus playing with that stuff. When I was talking about the guy when I first got in the golf business, when I'm talking to Leith, I used to go play a lot of golf with him and I work.
With him, and he was a good stick.
He would he played for Stanford. He was you know, he was in his sixties at the time, and he still had he still had some game. And he put this set of blades together. They were set at J thirty threes and they had some steel fibers I think they were eighty gram or ninety five gram steel fibers.
In them, and he just striped him.
He hit them so much better than any cavity back said he had and he just couldn't figure out why. And I'm like, man like, think about it. When you're swinging those things like you don't have any other options. It's almost like fear factor. You've got to hit this thing solid or it's not gonna you're not going to get very much out of it, And for whatever reason, it just rained him in and he played. He played great golf with those.
Off and on for a while.
But to me, like, man, there's nothing feels better than just hitting you know, hitting that stuff pure because the weight, it's just so concentrated, and it's just just a different feedback than what you get with a modern technology filmed golf club.
It's just so different.
Yeah, that's that's. Uh, you know, just make golf heart again. Make it unfair.
Like I'm saying to make it unfair, I'm saying.
I'm just saying I appreciate it differently, I think. But that's I think. Yeah, that's I mean, don't I mean, I'm not saying make it unfair. I'm saying, appreciate it differently. There's there's there's so many different ways to appreciate it, and that's just you know, one of them.
I Mean.
The other thing I think I've talked about before is like, the thing that's really interesting with the National custom work stuff is like almost half the projects I end up working on with clients or partial sets, there are guys that are trying to build like a four or five six club set that they can go out and you know, throw in a Sunday bag and go talking with I Just the way people enjoy golf is changing, and there's
still a lot of different ways to do it. You can do it by playing different courses, like you know, like Sweetens, you can go play the Cradle, you can you know, there's all kinds of neat different things like that, or you can play with different equipment.
I mean, whatever you want.
To do, man, That's why I told him the way you want to enjoy it. Enjoy golf the way you want to enjoy it, and you know, don't be ashamed of it.
Just embrace it. Enjoy it the way you enjoy it.
Yeah, he is this buddy of mind. And he said he couldn't the course he played didn't test him enough because it was too short and wide open. And I'm like, don't just play with a five.
I you ask him what he shot.
He's really he's a really good player. He shoots in the sixties.
Yeah, but what I mean, that's like I mean, but it's.
True because you just bash driver and then wedge it on. So I told him, like, hey, like, if you want to get better play with just a five iron none less, and then you actually have to hit mid irons in the greens. You know, like that's going to make you better. But hey, let's let's wrap this up. You know the last overrated under underrated the fair police.
I mean, golf is not by design to be fair, so Glen. It's like life, man, it's like playing life. Yeah, I mean, you know, i'd say there's I don't think there's quote unquote fair.
Does not exist. It's that's that's golf.
So I guess I would say what that would be what they're they're overrated, They're way overrated.
That that's a good answer. All right, Patrick, thanks for coming on, Thanks for all the time.
My pleasure man, anytime.
Let's uh, let's get together soon. We should uh give me a shout one of these days. Offline, let's let's talk about a couple of things.
Yeah, for sure, I'll uh, people can find your stuff on Instagram at National Custom Works. Then you've got your Faral, your Feral.
Game fer Company, and then and then yeah that's at BB and f CO.
And then there's a National Custom Works Fine furniture department that's at the NCW. Find Furniture on Instagram, and then I think I'm on Twitter, National custom Works and BB and f R on Twitter. I was one of the guys I did. I did Twitter for Swedens for a while. I did the Instagram up until about October. Me and Rod did the Instagram until about October. And the Nash is out there now has been doing it.
But yeah, so all.
Right, I talked too much. I apologize.
It's okay. This is a this is a two parter, so we're we're yeah, well, we'll talk to you soon. You've been listening to the Fried Egg podcast. We do the digging for you.