Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today I am joined by Patrick Boyd. Patrick is the co founder of National Custom Works and founder of Boyd, Blade and Farrell. Besides making custom irons, Patrick is also a golf course architecture addict and was the longtime GM of Sweeten's Cove. This will be another two part podcasts, with part two dropping on Tuesday. Enjoy it and I wish everybody a happy Thanksgiving.
I miss a green for example. I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in.
A bride egg, Frida egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida egggg Frida Egg, bride egg, Lie.
I'm about ready to run off of the hup course. How did you get into club making?
Well, I mean I got into club making. It was two thousand and three, and I, you know, I'd always really been into golf clubs, and I just decided I had some time on my hands. I found a guy that had a custom shop that was pretty close to where I was working. I was working in a law firm at the time, and I wrote him an email and just was really kind of interested in learning about building clubs and everything else, and I just happened to
catch him at the right time. He'd been in business for about a year, and he had all these shafts that he'd pulled out of clubs, and I was basically the back room bitch for this guy for like months. And when I kind of got through everything, he kind of taught me how to build clubs and how to fit clubs, and I mean that was really kind of my introduction to the golf of the golf equipment business. I'm still in touch with the guy too. He was he was a great mentor for me. His name is Leith,
Leith Anderson. He's in he's in Indiana. But I mean, it was just, you know, it was one of those moments in my life where it was, you know, I'm something I'd always kind of wanted to look at doing, and you know, it was either you have this opportunity now to do it. I was, you know, I was twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six at the time, and uh, you know just kind of dove into it. You know it. It's uh, it's been an interesting rabbit hole, to say
the least. But it's kind of taking me all over the place living and and as far as just having different, different hats and doing different things in golf. It's it's been a really fun ride. And obviously, you know, there's nothing I'd really change about it. But yeah, I was just kind of an auspicious start in the back room of a custom club shop in Palo Alto, California.
It's fascinating. I uh, I grew up in on Wenesia Club in Lake Forest. They always had a club maker club fitter all the way back to like the old days of when that was the way it was and they're famous. Guy was a Hubby hub John who is who's finishing up. But but outside of that, it was for a long time, I feel like the the mass production just overwhelmed the handcrafted work.
Oh one hundred percent, I mean, and the timing was really you know, this was like two thousand. It's like two thousand and three. So I mean you had places like there's you know, like John Riley's in Monterey, and you had you know, Henry Griffits kind of did a custom fitting deal, and they had places all over and they're you know kind of manufacturers had tried to have fitting systems. Zevo was another one that had a fitting system, but you know, manufact I just tried to have fitting
systems and it just never really worked out. And all of a sudden, this you know, kind of its kind of whole other deal started opening up with you know, guys that had the ability and the equipment to fit people for shafts and for specs and to really understand what somebody needs. And I really kind of changed the paradigm of how people bought golf equipment. But it was just, you know, it was interesting to kind of get into that really in its infancy when businesses like that really
hadn't been around that long. I mean there were businesses before that were they were buying cheap clone equipment and assembling it and selling it, you know, selling cheap sets. But I mean this was this was a legit you know, this was a legitimate performance deal. This was going in
working with the latest technology. And I mean we had in his shop, we had a few different devices, but I mean there was one really old school one man where it was literally like you hit through a couple of lasers and it would just like spit out numbers that were somewhat accurate, but I mean having options for people to try and you know, kind of the birth
of launch monitors. It was really you know, really this was kind of the beginning of it, and it was it was interesting to be you know, kind of kind of there looking at and seeing that kind of change things and just really the evolution of where things went from there, you know, because they're there. Weren't at that time,
there weren't any clubs with shaft changing technology. You know, Nakashima was the first company to have that, and that was like two thousand and five, and then you know that really kind of changed the way fittings were done.
And then all these all these connect systems really kind of got good, and you know, club connect systems got really good and and and really easy for people to work with, club makers to work with to build a fit cart, for people to to really hit, you know, hit a lot of different different shots and clubs to see what they needed.
But you know, it was fascin you know, the guy I went to this guy a long time ago. You know, I've gotten fit. You know, he it was in high school. I had to be in high school. He's doing this out of his out of the garage of his his house in the northern suburbs of Chicago. His name was Dennis Pine. I don't know if you recognize that name.
Yeah, Dennis is like I know Dennis.
He had he was part of Club Champion.
Yeah, I knew him before he was part of Clubs Champion, so that there they were there were Yeah, I know Dennis.
Yeah, so like that. That's so I was. I got I went to his garage of his house when I was like I was a high schooler, and then it became Club Champion and he had an offshoot. But it's just crazy how this boom has happened with custom clubs and then you know, you're on the all the way on that one end of the spectrum now with National Custom Works, where you're doing you know, the custom irons, which I think adds a whole nother layer and interesting aspect to the club making process.
Oh yeah, because I mean we're taking you know, we're taking all that information that somebody is going to really garner through a fitting, figuring out the length, lie shaft, the specs that they really need, and we can really take that fitting to the next level as far as crafting the club's most specifically the bottom of the golf clubs of what they need to kind of match up with their specific tendencies, their preferences, and the conditions that
they play in. There's there's really a lot that we do that's on that side of it. That's kind of really what the focus is. Obviously, there's a lot of little aesthetic details that are really kind of tailored to a client's preferences. But really the goal and we fit somebody for irons and wedges is just figuring out exactly how the bottom of that golf club needs to work for that person for what they like to do at the golf club and what they do at the golf club. So yeah, it's it's com sorry good.
I'm not a gearhead at all, so you know, for all the listeners I am, I'm out over my skis here talking with this. So I'm going to ask a lot of basic questions and.
Stuff.
We are going, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about all kinds of stuff. But I'm interested in club, you know, I'm hoping to get a little more of a baseline. I'm kind of I get fit, I put them in my bag, I forget about it. I don't even think about new clubs. I refuse to hit people's clubs because I don't even want to try it. But I'm curious. So with getting all this is this fitting, you know, and in having the different souls and how much of an impact, like does that can that have on play?
On like your play?
It's pretty I mean it, First of all, it depends on how well you know the equipment that somebody is playing actually fits them, because.
Like a baseline fit, So you've got the shaft that.
Baseline fitting that you just went through to figure out all these details of your shaft, your length, and your life's not taking into account the bottom of the golf club. I don't really know other than us, And you know, there's a couple other wedge manufacturers that offer some custom wedges. You know, we really kind of look at golf clubs a little bit differently, you know, And and the larger manufacturers when they're making golf clubs, they're targeting a market segment.
They're they're trying to make a golf club that casts a wide net as far as the number of people that it's going to fit. Obviously, there's a little subsets within that you've got game improvement, super game improvement players, cavities, blades. I mean, there's all these little subsets. But the way they kind of engineer and design the bottom of those clubs is really kind of designed to cast a wide net.
And they they all are kind of interesting too when you really kind of look at the some of them, because every manufacturer kind of has a tendency to how they set up those souls. There's a couple of manufacturers that put a lot of bounce on their irons. There's you know, manufacturers that don't put a lot of bounce on their irons. Some manufacturers have sharpish leading edges, they don't have a lot of camber. They're all a little bit different as far as how the bottoms of the
souls are set up. There's not a not a standard per se. You've got a pretty wide range of things out there. And you know, say I get I get a client that I'm working with and he knows all those details, but you know he's got a specific tendency. Well, you know, we talk about that tendency. What's going on with with what you're playing right now, is it is
it going to the ground too much? So are you hitting everything thin, what's what do your divots look like, what's you know, what's really kind of going on, and really look at it from from that perspective, and then take into account what they're playing with. So, I mean, say I get a guy that tells me he's missing everything thin, Well, automatically, I'm not going to think that he's a sweeper, has a has a narrow or a shallow angle of attack. I'm going to want to look
at what clubs he's playing. If he's you know, if he's got an iron that has a lot of bounce, I can understand right away why he thinks he's a sweeper. He's you know, leading edges too high, the club's not really get into the ground for him. So those tendency is going to be to miss a thin and you know vice versa. You get a guy that you know thinks he's really steep and you talk to him in the clubs he's playing don't have any bounce or camber, and he's taking these huge divid's with him and he
thinks he's really steep and he's really not. It's you know, it's every it's just it's it's the fascinating thing to me and is like every every client I work with, it's like a different puzzle that you have to kind of piece together because you know, golf is such an individual game and people play it so many different ways, and you know, everybody swings like a fingerprint, and beyond that, you know, just just how people like to play is different.
So that makes so much different to me because like when people ask me for recommendations, like about like clubs or about balls I'm or stuff like that. I just think it's so personal because what works for me doesn't necessarily work for anybody else.
Oh exactly percent. It's just it's just so fascinating too. I mean, I've been I've been like an equipment geek for most of my life. I'm forty one now, and I kind of really got into equipment when I was like ten eleven years old. Just you know, I was just like obsessed with all equipment, and like, you know, like twenty years ago, you go crazy like some you know, some some club would come out and it would be
out there. If there's an all per case in Point Pink came out with their first metal driver, the Zing two came out, everybody was saying it was thirty yards longer. It was this amazing driver and you just couldn't wait to get your hands on it and buy it.
And I don't really know that.
No, No, this was like this was actually this was their first metal driver. They came out with this metal driver and Jim Colbert was playing it and Michelle McGannon was playing it and they had I walked. I was a tour championship in ninety like ninety two, ninety three. I followed Billy Mayfair had one in his bag anyway.
But you know, you go, you hear about these clubs.
And I subscribed to golf World because I wasn't, you know, degenerate, and I'd see all these clubs that were winning every week, and you'd want to go buy stuff.
And I don't really know that that's the case these.
Days, where you know, this club is one ex people people are much more I think, in tune with what they need now than they've ever been with equipment. And I think that I think people to a wider extent understand now that you know, you should play with what
fits your game versus what fits somebody else's game. And you know, I I was talking to someone at golf WRX and we were we were discussing, discussing, and he had this really great phrase where his Johnny Wonder and he had this great face where was taking ownership of your game. And I think, to an extent, that's kind of what that is. And I think, you know, people are more
so interested in taking a look at that now. And it's just you know, as we've talked about, you know, I think the last time I talked to you, just in general, just just the depth that golf is gaining.
You know, I don't know that we're getting any bigger, but the guys that really love the game, that are really into the game, they're they're looking for different ways to interact with the game and to go further down that rabbit hole now than I think ever before, because there are so many resources available to go down that
rabbit hole. You know, you're you know, the Friday being one of them, obviously, but I mean there's there's a there's just so many more conduits to kind of get into that stuff now than there was twenty five thirty years ago, which is part of the thing that's interesting to me too, is the guys that you encounter that are into this is like you have these younger guys that are like in their twenties and early thirties, and the same token, you have these guys that are like,
you know, in their fifties sixties, that have been around golf their whole life, and then all of a sudden they have just this vast amount of information available to learn even more and they're getting even deeper into it.
Yeah, I mean the Internet, the Internet was made for to allow people to nerd out. That's like the greatest thing about the Internet is you can get like as nerdy as you want about certain subjects like golf clubs, golf course, architect.
Just about just about any subject. Although you know, man, there's there's definitely there's there's definitely a bottom of that whole point. There's certain there's still certain things that you can't really find out a lot of information about online, including kind of what we do and as far as you know, designing golf clubs and the sol golf clubs,
that's not really anybody talks about. There's not really a great resource for it really anywhere, and you know, as Don likes to say, there's not really a school for it. It's really Uh, it's just, you know, it just kind of is what it is.
They say the secrets and the dirt, you know, that famous saying, but it's really the secrets, secrets and the soul for golf clubs. Absolutely, maybe that should be your new say, But uh, what it so, I guess being a noted gearhead and you've seen just the technological explosion in golf, I'm curious, what would you say are kind of the five or three to five biggest Yeah, equipment innovation breakthroughs in the last twenty five years, in the.
Last twenty five years. That's okay, that's a good question.
Obviously, you could list ten if you want it.
I don't. I don't.
You know, there's I mean, there's there's been a lot of kind of milestone points, you know, I mean going back obviously, I mean, you know, early metal woods weren't really any better than the persimmons that they were replacing. I was actually thinking about this this morning, was like, nobody had really won a major with a metal driver until I think Olethabul in ninety four. I think that
was guys were still hitting persimmon up until then. There was still some there were still some holdouts after you know, you know Davis Love, I think in in Leonard being the last two I was watching.
I was watching the ninety six Vegas Invite the other day, the Tigers first win, and Davis Love was playing with a Persimmon driver. I was I couldn't believe it.
He had a Cleveland TC fifteen in his bag.
He played that thing forever. The crazy thing is Freddy played an old M eighty five. Freddie played like a Persimmon driver that was from like the fifties. Forever, like forever he played that driver. It was unbelievable until he had a big Berth in his bag, and I think that's what finally kicked it out. But he played that
thing forever. So back to your question, So you know, obviously I'd say probably Big Bertha was like the first growing up that that and like the eighty x two hundred were like kind of a kind of a big deal. Like this is like late eighties and you know, early nineties for Bertha, because you know, you were starting to get these heads that were engineered that were a little
bit bigger. They were putting different materials and heads of them were used before you know, until then it was metal and wood, and you know, graphite chefs and were nowhere near as good as graphite chefs are now. They were pretty high torque and kind of unpredictable, and so that would be kind of a kind of a stepping stone there, and then uh, you know, I would say, man,
the nineties were a crazy time for golf equipment. There's a lot of interesting stuff that kind of came out in the nineties, but that that next, maybe the next big step from that was really when wound balls started to give way to the multi layer balls grew up the strata. The strata the top flight Strata was the first one of those balls that was out in the market, and it was dude, and it was such a weird ball. I remember I bought I bought a dozen of them, and I was going on a trip and I'd played.
I mean, man, I played Ballota forever I played, I played the HT, I played the Tour Ballotta, I played the professional. The last generation HT they made had a year thane cover, so it was kind of durable. And then Max Flay had this really awesome ball called the Ram that was like the last gasp of great ballata balls. It was like late nineties, early two thousands, and they were like they were like sixty bucks a dozen, and this is almost twenty years ago.
You know what I bought the other day for four dollars.
I saw that's the sleeve, the sleeve of two or one hundreds.
Dude, golf. The thing that the funny thing is when you think about.
This, like golf golf ball manufacturers would love to go back to that because you think about what golf ball prices were like twenty five years ago. They were about to say that they were now. But golf balls are so disposable. You get a bad shot with one of those balls that it was done gone, I mean even gone, just gone. Even if you were striking those balls. Well, if you got a round out of a sleeveable lot of balls, you were you were feeling pretty good about it.
And then the professional came out and that was like the first ball that you could play more than a round with and it would still you know, it would still kind of hold up and eventually the cover kind of shred and get beat up. But you could play that thing for a while. But the strata was like, you know, it did like the weirdest thing in flight.
I mean, I have so many memories of that ball, like in flight, like you could just hit this bullet with it, and on the way down it would just kind of like drift like it would like drift left and it would drift right. It would just kind of wobble. I remember, it was just like wobble on the way down. It was. It was really weird.
It had like a weird feel around the greens too, as I remember.
They were just clicking as hell just basically, you know, it was a distance ball with another you know, with a with a layer in between the cover and the core. And then obviously you know about that time too, you know, the great big titanium drivers started coming out. So the great big Bertha came out, which was like two hundred and fifty see seeds that came out like late nineties, and then like two thousand, the biggest big Bertha came out. There was three hundred cecs, and you had, you know,
you started to have these really good titanium drivers. But like the thing that really like was always really interesting to me growing up was like when you're playing that smaller headed driver, I mean, you really had to hit it well to get it to perform, and you know, I mean growing out playing junior golf. I mean, I wasn't like the longest kid out there, but I was.
I was relatively long, and all of a sudden, you know, you start getting this new stuff that's coming out, like these larger heads, and all of a sudden, I wasn't that long anymore, and the kids that I was twenty thirty yards by were pretty close to me. And before
I you know, before you knew it. By the time, everything had really kind of changed, like I don't know, mid two thousands, I mean that that advantages didn't exist anymore because you didn't have to you didn't have to hit it on the screws every time to get as
much out of it. You just had you had some some margin for aer but you know, you started to see stuff grow, and then heads started to get bigger, and then you know, I mean, I think the thing that that really kind of it's interesting me, was there, you know, there's a certain point in the road when golf equipment was really designed to be accurate, and at a certain point they decided that it was time to
engineer it to go far. And that was, you know, really been the last oh the last ten years or so really with irons that you've seen that, but.
It's that's the thing to me with irons is that people market how far they hit it, But like the point of iron is to hit it close.
Right, I mean that's I mean one hundred percent. I you know, to me like that that you know, what defines a good set of irons is, you know, consistent. They do the same thing every time they you know, you know, even if you miss it, it's going to do the same thing every time. Consistency is that's you know, that to me is the name of the game? Cares what club you hit? If you can hit at the same distance every time, I'm sure you wouldn't really care either.
So so I got a question for you. Yeah, I think about this. My cousin carries a uh still carries his fat shaft five five? Would where does where's the fat shaft rank? And in terms of maybe worst innovation ideas of all.
Time, it certainly wasn't a great one. I mean it's just the whole, the whole, the whole, Like the whole premise with those was like they're just so thick they don't tork. It was like just supposed to be just you know, but certainly not a great Yeah, certainly not a great one.
It's so funny. He brings it out and he never hits it. He carries it. I don't know why he carries it.
Have you hit it? Have you like taken it out of his bag and hit it?
Yeah, I mean the fun Yeah, the funniest thing is swinging it. When you're practice swinging and hearing the.
Yeah, it's almost like swingy Hickory. You almost get's like almost like a similar like auditory deal with that. But you know, kind of going back to what, you know, what what we were talking about. You know. The thing too that that's fascinating to me right now is I've been around golf a long time and and just lately like just how much interest there there is in playing with older equipment. You know, like ten years ago or
so was just kind of a funny novelty. But I mean there's guys that are really into it, and it's I don't know, I think I know you've been playing with that that driver, that.
Uh golf driver man.
Yeah, the Jeremy the driver that Jerryman gave you. I mean, how's that? I mean, how has that been for you? Has that been like?
Because I mean I I had a pretty I had I had about like two.
Thousand and eight to twenty thirteen. I could not hit a four hundred and sixty cc driver, and I gave
up trying and I played precison. I played per Simmon pretty much all the time like for that, and it like gave me like this, I don't know, gave me a deeper understanding for architecture playing with that stuff, because you really did have to hit good t shots because you know that twenty five thirty yards of carry distance that you're losing with that really puts a premium on hitting at the right planting in the right place, and all of a sudden, the bunkers and details that you
weren't thinking of with the metal driver are like, oh, like it's just it's a different it's just like a different deal. Yeah.
So it's been It's been awesome. I love it. I think like what I've found that's been fascinating is is like stuff that I never would even see with like when I'm when I've got my regular equipment, like my you know, if I was I don't even see these bunkers and you know. It was eye opening. Is if you can pair it with like the older golf equipment, it's even like it's crazy. I mean when you're hitting like two twenty five drives and you're accustomed to hitting
at three hundred, it's it's insane. You the appreciation you have for the game. Like I played National Golf Links with with a Hickory and a Ballata ball and it was the maxifly ht actually, and it.
Was were you playing when you're playing your gamer irons or what.
Iron gamer irons, But like the ball, you're still losing it.
You're still losing at least a club.
Oh no, it's like it was like twenty five yards. Yeah, I mean like the the way and then when you're hitting into the wind, it's just a whole different game. It's it's just.
Because the ball because the ball spun had those ball spin like.
It's like a wall.
Yeah, like if you hit you yeah, it's it's it's it's very it's very very different playing with that stuff.
So it's it's been an interest I play. I play that Hickory driver with a regular ball and it's like forty yards if I go back with the Ballatta it's like eighty seventy five yards. It's just a and it breaks makes the architecture so much more, you know, fascinating because like what I think is I was talking with somebody today about this. Is it like you just can't overpower a golf course. You have to have the full array of skills, which to me.
Is it's just that's how it was, and that's how it was. You know, one hundred years ago you had to have a full you had to have everything to play good golf. Yeah, and with everything now, I mean, the game is just I mean, you know, it's you know, I was kind of going on with you on Twitter the other day. It's just like it's so glaringly one dimensional.
I think I had this awakening.
I had this awakening. I was playing the State Am two years ago. It was a twenty seventeen Illinois State Am and we're playing a sixty seven hundred yard course that's a par seventy, and like I'm midway through my second round and I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, God, like I haven't hit more than a nine iron into a green, Like what is what is going on? You know? Like what like this is not the game that I grew up playing.
Yeah yeah, no, the game you grew up playing. You use your whole bag, yeah.
You know, and it's it's frustrating for like I think, like where I get frustrated and this is all like I think one of the biggest problems with with golf is people have a hard time removing their personal bias. And like one of the things I've done well in golf is like long iron play, and it's so insignificant.
Now, yeah, I'm the sign of the same boat man. My long irons used to be my favorite. You know, there's still my favorite clubs. They were like weapons, but now there's like whatever, like.
You see it as Sweeten's Cove, Like Sweeten's Cove is a good example, Like it's such an awesome course because of the way, you know, the birdie and triple bogie's always in play. But like the thing that happens is like with the way the ball is in the clubs, like you could you get wedges into a lot of those greens. And there's very rarely a long iron unless it's a second shot into par five.
I mean, it depends on how you play it. I mean I actually hit a lot of long irons out there off the tee. Uh huh, I mean there's I kind of I don't know, man, I'm an idiot.
I played that driver everywhere.
Huh.
I hit driver everywhere.
I don't. I'm I just like I you know, I hit driver out there. I hit driver on three, I hit driver on six, and that's usually about it. If I'm feeling really good and the ball's going I all hit driver on one. I mean, I don't even think about it. On five, I don't think about it. On seven, eight. I kind of have a spot that I really like on the right side. That's you know, drivers a little.
I don't need to kind of overkill I could. The way I play that golf course, I hit a lot lot of three four five irons and spots, you know, three irons a club in my hand walking up to seven te box. But I mean that's you know, that's the fun thing about Sweden. Excuse me, that is the fun thing about Sweden's is there's so many different ways to play. I've I played the golf course with Rob. I mean, I can't even tell you how many times.
And I always laugh because like we go up to we walk up to the t. He's got a driver in his hand. It's like, dude, can I just like play one round with you where I just have you hit in spots because Rob's Rob's got some game and he just always he just brings a big number and play like just it's just automatic. He's got driver in his hands. But I mean that's you know, it's funny that golf course. Man, If I.
Play competitively, I play, I hit I just three iron to death courses. But if I'm not playing pintively, I just I hit driver everywhere because like I'm like whatever. You know, listeners that don't know you, you've gained quite the Internet fame because of your role at Sweeten's Cove and you've been you were the GM there for a number a number of years. How did you get how did you even find Sweeten's Cove? How how did you get there?
I don't know about fame.
Man, Your vavimans precede you.
You have the vave clouds that are actually on the ballpark blueprint. I'm talking to Tom that did that. He's like, yeah, man, look like there's a cloud on the edge of the deck on the blueprint. I'm like, dude, come on, you look really close and they're actually as a cloud. But anyway, so the first time I saw Sweetens was November. I think it was November fifth of twenty and thirteen. You know, I had a business called Scratch Golf with my partner.
Ari's one of my partners in National Custom Works. But we had Scratch Golf and we were in we were in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and we'd moved the business here from Eugene in two thousand and nine, and we we'd moved everything up to Michigan in twenty thirteen. I'd moved up there August of that year, and I was down here to get my wife to move her up there. And we we'd driven the day before out to out to uh out here to see her and just my friend Ari is like one of the greatest golf degenerates that
I know. The So the night before we're getting ready to leave, he's like, where do you want to play on the way down, and I list off a couple of places I thought might be fun to stop. I think, Camargo, I'm trying to remember where else. I mean, this is I'm trying to remember where else. I was saying we could stop and he's like, uh, ay man, let's go play Oakmont. All right, well let's nowhere near on the wave, but all right, cool, so we go. We played.
So we leave, We leave Detroit at like four in the morning.
We drive to Pittsburgh. We play Oakmont, We get in the car and we drive from Pittsburgh straight to Chattanooga. And the next morning we've got we've got a meeting with Rob and the superintendent. It looked at my on golf Club at the time of a guy named Mark Stillwall, who's who Me and Ari were still good friends with Mark, and he, uh, he was the one that was going on and on about it.
We've we've seen pictures and stuff.
On on g C, a of of of Sweetens as it was kind of coming together, and kind of knew kind of knew it was out there, but we hadn't you know, hadn't really gone out there and checked it out. At that point. It was still you know, still kind of in the early stages. Well, I mean this is when I saw it on GCA. It was well anyway, So so Mark really got us in touch with Rob
and we met Rob. We were robing that the next morning at Sweeten's and I'll never forget it, man, I'll never forget pulling up in this van and there's this golf course just spread out and it's mostly finished. I think the first time I saw it, it probably hadn't seen a mower for about at least four or five months. There was sand and probably fifty sixty percent of the bunkers, but it was, you know, it was at a point where if nothing happened, that was pretty much going to
be going to be it. And we walked the golf course with Rob, and we didn't the.
First time we walked it.
We didn't bring our co We just went out there walking with Rob and his two dogs, and we're just kind of going on and talking, talking with Rob as we're kind of noticing and seeing all these things. And that the fascinating thing to me was was talking to Rob and really kind of picking his brain about the golf courses that he'd seen and what his influences were, and other than going overseas and seeing some golf in Scotland, he really hadn't seen that much golf in the US
at that point. He's seen quite a bit more since then, but you know, he really hadn't seen very much, and in front of us were all these really cool little details and strategic elements that you know, we've both seen at other courses, and it's just just the way everything was arranged and put together was just really interesting. And here's here's a here's a person that's seen pictures of you know, seeing pictures of this hazard, seeing you know,
seeing Tenant PV, seeing the Devil's asshole. You know, just just how everything was arranged with just you know, just kind of his instincts and his creativity, and it just, you know, I was just really really impressed with the golf course. And we got done walking around it, and I still have I still have all these pictures the first time I saw it that I still look at once in a while. And we get done and he just kind of looks at it and he says, y'all
want to go play? And we and we are like, hell, yeah, we want to go play. So we grab our clubs
and we run out, and I think we played. I think we we looped at I think we looped at three times, and we forgot about the time change and he had to he had to fly out, and I had to drive back then we've like I think we're on like three or four, and we just like realized, crap, we got to get out of here, and you know, we kind of left and just you know, the whole way home, we were just talking about the golf course, and he and Rob got really he got involved with
the project in Rob as far as getting getting the lease of the golf course going. They were able to secure a lease on the course. It's like March I think of two thousand and fourteen, and then I was up in Michigan, and and then my wife didn't really want to live in Michigan anymore, so I moved her
down here in July of fourteen. I moved down here in October of fourteen, just just the beginning of the month, just before the golf course opened, and I came out for opening day, and Ron Whitten was there, Adam Lawrence was there, there were a few other folks that were there. Rob's partner, Tad came out and we played the golf course and just, I mean, dude, it was so it was so tight. I still laugh at how I mean, dude, like opening day it was. It was so good. But
I digress. But what had happened at that point was they'd gotten the golf course finished, they gotten the golf course open, and they ran out of money. And I mean basically closing day they was the well was dry and that was it. So the people that had you know, really you know, helped get the golf course ready to go and ready to get open. That was pretty much it. And Rob called me, I think the next day after after that, and he, uh he said, well, uh, well, I don't know what you got going on, but I
need somebody out to run the golf course. And you know, would you be interested in would you be interested in coming out and keeping an eye on it and you know, and being the manager. And I said sure. So that's kind of how everything started. And you know, the next day I was out there and we started off. We had a we actually we had a tent. It was up above uh there's a power poll up above the back to you on one. We had a ten up there for about two or three weeks and it blew
away and then we got the shed. And that first winter, that first winter I was out there. It was it was me and Rob and we were you know, I was sitting up there and he was out on the sand throw he was out doing maintenance stuff, and it was it was a two of us, and it was like, man, what you know, how's this, How's this going to work out? How's this going to go down? So we, uh, you know, we just kind of sat around that winter and came up with some ideas and got the golf course opened.
And you know, the first year wasn't you know, we didn't kill I wouldn't say we killed it our first year, but you know, started to get some notoriety and people started to come out, and then you know, the following year, it just did it really did a really snowballed, you know, as far as how that place kind of was released into the wild. It it just kind of really snowballed. We we tried initially when we got everything started, we
tried some pretty traditional advertising and marketing stuff. We did. We did some print ads, we did some radio stuff, and we even we did some TV ads. I think I think we did those in twenty sixteen. We did those around the majors, but really kind of where we where we saw the best. And you know, obviously the most organic, you know, growth of the golf course was through social media through Instagram, through Twitter, and just it's just it's just a it's just a new world. Man.
It's just unbelievable how things how things grow these days that you know twenty thirty years ago, you don't you don't know what would happen.
It's just That's how I found out about the course was a buddy of mine had seen the Instagram page. Who you know this guy had This guy worked at for a golf management company and he ran their social media. So he was like so in tune and he had seen the pictures and it was you know, and then I looked at him, I'm like, oh, man, I got to get out of here. This place looks unbelievable.
The best for the phone calls that we used to get because we we had, like, know, the pictures we had on our website. Man, I get people who would call and they literally like questioned me about the pictures on the website and if they were real or not. It was like, Oh, there's there's no way, y'all. Exis you're in rural Tennessee and you've got Broomsedge and your golf course looks like that like it actually does, and.
That that was like probably to me.
I was out there. So I was at Sweden's from two thousand, middle of October twenty fourteen up until the beginning of October this October, and we hired we hired Nash out there. The thing that never got old Andy was watching people on their first time out there. You pull up to this parking area, there's a shed, and right in front of you is this gem and just the look people would get on their f it's just
like almost disbelief. And you know, you know, I don't know if you've you've you've met John Al, You've met midtown Chico.
Right, I don't think so.
So he's he's been a regular at the golf course kind of since since it opened, and he for years would just like he would just love bringing people out there they've never seen it before. And just almost every time i'd see his car pull up, I just keep an eye on the guys getting out of the car and they just like sit there, put their hands on there on their sides and just kind of sit there
with their mouths open. But uh, you know, it's just it's just unbelievable though, going back, you know, going back to it just unbelievable to me watching that place really grow, you know, from just a you know, just a seed to kind of you know, where it is now and the and the golf twitter Attie. It's it's you know, maybe one of the more fulfilling things I guess in my life is is is you know, really watching that
grow and being a part of it. And you know, I look at it a lot now where I think, you know, four years ago kind of where this where all that's really started. I had a I had a tremendous around of a belief in the golf course, and I had a lot of belief in rob and it it it just, I don't know, it made it an interesting proposition to get involved with the golf course when I did, and obviously it really wasn't my plan when
I moved back here from Michigan. It was, you know, I I was doing some stuff for Scratch and this just kind of happened. And you know, it's it's hard, it's hard kind of moving away from that and just being a part of it. But I have a soon to be three year old at home, and you know, the last four years of a lot of hours of.
Work, lots of time in that show, lots of.
Time in that shed, and it's just, you know, it was just it was just time to time to spend you know, time to spend some time at home. And I'm still I'm still involved with the golf course. I talked to Rob still like every day, and I mean, I'm still involved. It's just I can't. I just can't live in that shed anymore. I mean there were some great times, man. I mean almost every day someone would come up and ask me, Hey, man, like, how often
do you go out and play? I'm like, could you sit up here all day and not go play?
Yeah? Seriously.
But the same time, the funny thing is that there's guys in the golf industry that they do exactly that they look at a golf course all day and when they're off, they go home. I mean, it's.
It's just yeah, it's it's nuts. I walk a lot of golf courses, you know, but every time I'm walking one, I have the itch to play. But when I walk them is like when I don't have the time to play, you know, Like if I have to go see three in a day, I'll walk them, you know.
But it's just you gotta get it.
Maybe get into that speed golf stuff. Man, start start working on your running. Maybe that's maybe that's the solution for you.
I need to do that, you know, I need to start running more. They've been just living this blog life you can't like And the thing.
The thing too, is you can't jump in a car. I mean, you just I mean you're just not going to really see You're not gonna see a golf court jumping in a cart. Yeah, you don't, You just you really don't. I mean, that's you got to feel it.
You got to walk it.
I mean that's you know, that's really where you learn a place is just you know, on foot, you're you're a base level seeing what's going on. You're not you know, yeah, yeah,
you're right. I like, you know, if I'm trying to like binge, if I'm trying to play fifty four seventy two ninety, you know, one hundred and eight in a day, whatever, cart's cool, But like otherwise, man, i I'd much rather, I'd much rather just walk because you just you've just learned so much more about the golf course walking.
That's how you look around and you just you you're thirty yards off of tee and you might see something on another hole that you're just like, oh.
When would you ever have that? When would you ever have that glimpse of the cart? That wouldn't you never?
Yeah, you can't eat you can't you play better?
Yeah, you play better too.
I just to immediate least, like you just you know, you're walking in between shots, you're thinking about what's now, You're just I.
Don't know, you're in a rhythm to me, just you are you getting?
You get in a much better flow when you're walking.
I also, I believe that four walkers is faster than four and two cars. That is a belief that I will go to the grave with.
I don't you know, from running a golf course for four years, I wouldn't argue with you. I mean, especially if we're talking about if we're talking about better players and guys that are playing ready golf, and absolutely yeah, I mean obviously you get you know, you get those that foursome walking once in a while that you know, like they walk in a group together up the fairway.
You know, it's just kind of like you know, to me, it's like a good force and is like okay, you hit your T ball you scattered, You meet up on the green and you for a second before you go hit your next team.
All that's it.
I played.
I played. I played a fivesome on a Monday this year with a bunch of guys that get it. We walked and we played in two and a half hours.
You can do it, Baron, Yeah, it's it's you can do it.
It's people were just hitting it at will.
But you know, the crazy that the the other thing, the craziest thing that I've seen, the craziest thing that I've seen, like in golf this year was so so.
Tyson Lamb came out like and it came out to Swedens in August and he brought He brought like seventeen dudes. They were like eighteen of them all together. These guys banded together.
Eighteen of them and they went out and they played all kinds.
Of these games and dude, they were getting around in an hour and a half pretty consistently. I went out like one to nine with them, and I kid you not, there was a threesome and there was a threesome that slowed us up.
I mean it was, it was the craziest.
It was the craziest thing I've ever seen. It was so much fun because they would go out and they'd play like, you know, they'd play two man scrambled, they played cards scrambled. It was just did it was. It was crazy. But that's like the furthest that's the furthest thing from what we're talking about.
But yeah, something the craziest that this.
Year, something that I think is crazy about Sweetens is that, like the it seems like the majority of the business at Sweetens is from out of towners. And it's like, how is it a destination now? A destination nine hole golf course? How does that work?
I think it does. You know, it's just like the fascinating thing is so you know, we're the golf course is about depending on where you are on Chattanooga, it's anywhere from about a half hour to about forty five minute drive out there. We're about an hour and a half from Nashville, and at least half of the traffic that goes out to Sweden's Code is from Nashville and surrounding areas. There's more people from there that come out
there than Chattanooga. I don't know, man, it's it's a really I've lived all over the country and it's just it's just kind of a different place for golf and just it's just a different it's just a it's just just a different deal. And the thing that.
So so, like I say, probably about half half of.
More come from nash Will, maybe twenty percent come from Chattanooga, and like immediately local, not a lot of not a lot of immediately local. And the rest are coming from Atlanta, they're coming from Knoxville, and they're coming from out of state, some of them from way out of state. The thing that like last winter, like the phone rang a lot, and it was guys up in Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin
looking for a break from the snow. And there were a lot of guys that drove that would literally drive down, spend a spend a day just killing themselves playing and would go back to work or whatever they had to go back to work for.
Butch is crazy for for you know, for a nine for a nine o golf corn.
That's is crazy, that.
Place, dude.
Honestly, it's I feel dirty just calling it a nine hole golf course because I think that place really transcends how you think of a number of holes, because I mean, like the nuts and bolts of it. We actually down one day and we wrote, we wrote everything out, and there's like there's like seventy eight holes out there that we play.
Yeah, but it so like why I was sitting at the ring or talking with a buddy of mine from New York, and I was like, and I live in Chicago, and I was thinking to myself, like, if this place was within an hour of Chicago, it'd be impossible to tea time.
Yeah, and we would. We'd like, we could charge one hundred dollars for it all day and guys would you know, guys would be happy.
To pay it. Why why happen in Chattanoos Because.
It's like, that's because that's how the golf market here is. The golf market here is more value driven than it is quality driven.
But it's not even expensive.
For this area. That's pretty much just about the peak of what people pay for golf in this area, for public golf, believe it or not, that's a out that's about what people pay at the very high end for public golf in this area. And you've got you know, really I mean outside of us, and you know, Sawani is a pretty decent little track. But uh, you know, there's really nothing even remarkable or notable around Chattanooga, and you know, it's we still andy, you know, here we are, here,
we are four years later. I mean, once in a while, you still get somebody that you know rolls up and you know, ask how much it is, and they leave because they think it's too many. I think they think it's too much money. And we've kept the we've kept the walking or the walking rates have always been cheap out there because I mean it's we've kept the walking rates cheap out there. But in this area really, up until the last year or so, I really didn't get
a lot of walkers. Like maybe I get like a dozen twenty walkers at the very most, like in a week a couple of years ago. But I mean for this area though, that's that's about as much as people are willing to pay for golf. And you know, the mentality is just different, you know. I mean, you get you get the guy that rolls up that sees the golf course has never seen anything like it, goes out, falls in love with it, and to him it's, you know,
the greatest deal around. Conversely, you get that guy that goes out there and never see anything like it, plays, it doesn't like it. I mean it's I don't know. Swedens does a very good job of kind of calling out and finding its clientele, because the people that fall in love with that place, they it's like their hotel California, man. I mean they they're there like every weekend or every chance they get to be there.
What uh, what would you say in terms of like why why is it with golfers? It seems like the natural tendency when when they don't when they haven't seen any golf course like it, why is always the reaction negative?
I don't know.
It's like that Mackenzie quote right about. You know, I don't know, because you know a lot of people grow up playing bland, uninteresting golf into them That's that's golf. We were talking earlier about how personal your views are to golf, and I think it goes kind of into that.
I mean, if you grew up, if you grew up playing a you know, a nondescript golf course, it was tree lines, didn't you know, had greens that didn't really have a lot going on, not really any bunkering, And that's what you knew was golf and someone took you out to Sweden's Cove or you know. The other comparison I always draw with that place is like Prairie Dunes in Kansas, because like you have like this this wild, this wild golf course. It's just like this kind of
a regional club. It's just like or a low excuse not even a regional club, just like at the local country club. It's like, what do people think in Hutchinson, Kansas? It go play other golf courses and then go play that place I removed from, Like it's just so far removed from like what you know is golf being Yeah, like what.
About that guy that's remember at Prairie Dunes from Hutchinson, that like he doesn't even know how good he has it?
You know, you know that's like it's going to place somewhere else and he's like what the hell is this? Like it's it's it's a pretty simil It's a it's an interesting parallel, right. I Mean, you have like, you know, just so so outside of the norm for you know, so so out outside the norm of what of the other gulf in the area is like you know, it's just it's just some people, just some people celebrate that difference. Some people don't understand that difference. And I mean, you know,
it's it's such as life, man. I mean, you know, people aren't gonna like everything, and you're gonna you're gonna lose your ass and go crazy trying to make everybody happy. So it seems like you do your thing.
It's kind of like the inverse paradigm of of what happens in La, where the very best courses like Riviera L A c. C. Bel Air, they you know, the now Restore bel Air, like embrace the natural look of the area with the washes and the baranca and the canyons, and and then like all the other courses in La seem to try and like hide it. It's like they're try and be like these utopias that aren't in southern California.
It's like, what, like, why wouldn't you look at these courses and take what they do well and bring it to your course.
Or even think about it because they probably don't.
What So when when'd you get like the architecture bug?
You know, I would say, I mean kind of really I started to get interested in architecture, was like it's kind of like in my late twenties, I would say, I mean, I mean, I you know, I was, I was kind of lucky growing up. I was, you know,
the club Brad growing up. And you know, I grew up in northern California and there was a pretty decent amount of good golf around where I grew up up, and I think like probably like my first exposure to something that just kind of blew my socks off was like playing Posa Tiempo when I was like thirteen or fourteen, and it was just, you know, like we were talking about before, it was so different from the other golf courses that I played, like growing up, I grew up
playing you know, kind of a tree lined, smaller green well buger golf course and then going out and seeing this place with you know, it's all kinds of wild to golf. It was really actually kind of different than it was than it is now. They've really done a lot of work out there, but I mean still it was just these wild greens and just all kinds of
crazy movement. And you know, I mean, I I was, you know, I guess interested in it, but there just wasn't a lot of resources about it then, and then you know, kind of as I got in my late twenties, I kind of started to get more interested in it. I mean, I think to an extent too. It you don't necessarily, I don't know, get interested in it or you're not really steeped in it until you've played you've played a lot of golf courses. I mean, you can't
really don't. I don't. It'd be difficult to be into architecture if you play ten golf courses, but you play a couple hundred of them, and all of a sudden you kind of start seeing and noticing all these differences and understanding why things are the way they are and
why you like certain things and dislike other things. But I joined I joined golf club at liss And I think two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, and that was really kind of you know, that was kind of the the primmer that really kind of got me interested in it.
Fall Nerd them, Yeah, because I mean it was.
Just such a great race. It's still a great resource. I mean, you've got all kinds of pictures, great opinions. You know, it's just you know, there's just so much information on there and it was just, you know, kind of an interesting thing. And then you know, and honestly too, you know, kind of the first kind of the first trip I took to band and kind of started a
little bit of that interest as well. In two thousand and and six, I was out, I was still living in California and in Ari Ari was out working on something with me, and we went out. We played pebble.
We played pebble on my.
Birthday, and I remember being, I hope this doesn't have said anybody. I remember being so I was just I was underwhelmed. Like we played pebble, was like a six hour round. We were shepherded, like just just shepherd it around the golf. Of course, wasn't in great shape. I mean, obviously there's some fantastic goals out there. We got done with a round and I looked at him, like, man, like, is it me or is this pretty overrated? He just kind of laughed and he said he's like He's like,
I'll tell you what, man. He's like, in a couple of weeks, like take about a week off, take a week off from work, and meet me up in Oregon. We'll go play We'll go play bandon and I got up there. I got up there about two weeks later, and I had a week off and I get up there. I drive up from from uh I was living in
Menlo Park. Grow from Menlo Park up to Eugene. I get to Ari's house and he's sitting there in his living room and he's got like, I don't know, probably one hundred Hickory golf clubs on the floor around him, Like, what are you doing. You're putting my bag together to go go play, go play out of band I'm like, Oh, cool, do you have a bag I can play with? So my first trip to Bandon was one hundred holes with Hickory,
Oh my god. And I think that gave me a much deeper appreciation for that place than I probably would have if I'd gone out there played it with modern equipment. And I just really just changed the way I looked at golf and how a golf course could really play. I hadn't really seen anything firm and fast fescue like that. I hadn't, you know, just how wild and natural it was,
and the shots you could play on the ground. I just hadn't really seen anything like that before, and that really it was like a quantum leap to me and my my appreciation and understanding of golf was my first trip out to Bandon.
It's and is coupled with the Pebble.
You know.
I had like the similar thing with Pebble this year at Whistling Straits where you know, it took us like six hours to play and I was just it just turned me so much. Yeah, there's so.
Many it's like you get it's I mean, dude, it's just the marshals are like they're just there to just keep you moving pretty much, and like it's just I don't know, that's just not golf to me, man, that's not.
I don't know what you find enjoyable about that.
It's it's funny because I asked the caddies like, hey, is this normal, and they're like, you know, the fastest round we ever get out here is like five hours, five and a half. And to me, that's it's business.
It's bad business, Annie because they're losing or they're missing out on those replay rates.
Yeah, well that's that's the thing.
Is like.
Even a four hour around four hour around of golf to me feels like forever.
Well just it just it just it feels it feels really.
Long, but that's the reality of so many golfers, Like, yeah, I caddied my whole life growing up, and like the four hours is fast for a foursome amount of weekend. Like and it's it's crazy to say that because we're two on the end of the spectrum, but that's the reality. Like four hours is pretty fast for some people. The thing that I found crazy, it's just like, you know, I could play Lossnia for like a fourth of the money and play twice as fast, and I think it's a better golf course.
So like what am I.
One hundred percent? Man? I would I concur with you in completely, in total and entirely, Like it's I mean.
It's I don't know, man, It's just it's such a different time.
You know. The other thing too, is like it's just I think the proposition for a lot of people is changing as far as like when you go out and you play a golf course. I think a lot of people are starting to start to embrace like having fun, Like you know, who cares if it's seventy five hundred yards and it kicks your ass, Like don't you want to just go have fun? Isn't that what you already playing got you into playing golf. You certainly didn't keep playing golf because it wasn't fun.
But I don't know.
There's a lot of things need a lot of things need to change.
But so you think Sweetens is certainly in the fun category. Abandon is a fun It's.
Like being out there for four years completely changed my perception of golf, like how I value, like just how I appreciate and enjoy golf.
What are the other most fun golf courses? You've been listening to the Egg podcast. We do the digging for you.