On-the-Ground Insights from Pinehurst and a 2014 U.S. Open Rewind

was to see. And second, the lessons that we both learned from rewatching the last US Open held at Pinehurst number two, which was in twenty fourteen and one in dominant fashion by Martin Kaimer. Both Joseph and I rewatched that final round telecast just to glean any insights we could from it. I think it's always informative to look at these past tournaments and try to get detailed about how the course actually played, because it's easy to forget a lot of the things that happened ten years ago.

So our basic intention here is to give you the most specific and accurate impression possible about how we expect the number two course to play this week and which skill sets we believe will be rewarded with that. Let's bring on, Joseph. How you doing, my friend?

bombs away. Other people think short hitters are going to be completely fine. Some people think short game is going to be everything. Other people think since you can put from around the greens, short game means nothing. This week, it's kind of all over the board.

the fairway. One thing I've heard a bunch of caddies saying, and I think you're gonna hear people say, is if you just get like a foot or two off the fairway, it's gonna be much more penal than if you're like ten feet or you know, fifteen twenty five feet off the fairway, then there's more thin areas. I think that

narrative is gonna is a little overblown. And when people taking it to the next step and saying, since it's true that being ten yards off is better than being one yard off, just bombs away, I don't see it that way. I don't think bombers and just getting reckless and bashing driver everywhere is a good strategy here. So not expecting that, yeah, well, I mean if you just bashed driver everywhere, there's a lot of bottlenecking around where your shots are going to land, first of all, and

then there's just that randomness that happens. And if a player embraces that and says, whatever the outcome is, I'm fine with it as long as I stick to my strategy of hitting it as hard as I can, then I almost respect that because that is really a stand that that player is taking at this course as opposed to other courses where the outcomes are just a little

more consistent, even if they're pretty penal. Agree, And I would take a little bit of that approach, Like I think there's some opportunities to get aggressive out there, but I think on TV you'll see some balls end up in the fix stuff. But with a totally fine lie, that's not an easy shot, like it's still coming into these greens and how demanding and die of ball they are.

I wouldn't want like one hundred and sixty yard shot, even if the live feels pretty clean and it's on sands like the fairway is still providing you a big advantage there. So I just don't why I agree to an extent that this isn't going to be like a hardcore accuracy test and you don't need to be amazing off the t you to thrive here. I think you can just go ahead and spray. It is not necessarily an accurate narrative, okay.

gonna be hard to say anything definitively. Doesn't look like it's gonna rain anymore, and I don't think there's gonna be a lot of wind. So something in that the range of eight under feels reasonable, but even like pin locations have a huge impact on that, So I don't know. Something in that ballpark seems reasonable to me.

don't think anybody's going to be satisfied. I don't think it's possible to satisfy us open fans these days, partly because of how far players hit the ball and how straight they hit it, and the equipment and the technique that they now have at their disposal, these courses are just way too short. Pinehurst is going to be seventy five hundred yards this week, and that's kind of like

too short for these guys. And so if it does get soft out there for whatever reason, because maybe you know, the course gets more rain than expected, then guys could go low. But my suspicion is that the USGA is going to be pretty restrained in the setup, but it's still going to be hard, but it's just not going to be winged Foot nineteen seventy four. We kind of have to put that idea of a US Open behind

us because it's just not happening anymore. And by the way, there continue to be really puzzling in bad takes about the lacc Us Open circulated out there. I'm sure that there will be some kind of contrast set up between

last year's US Open and this US Open. But the fact of the matter is that that was a hard US Open pretty much after the first day, and that course defended itself fairly well after that first round when it was just a bit softer than I think the setup crew expected, and so I mean there's just that it's almost like it doesn't matter what happens on the course. What matters is the narrative that people spin out of it.

gonna have fewer long irons in. And the main thing though, is if you make these greens too firm, there are certain holes where there is nowhere to land the ball, like the fifteenth hole right now, long part three, there's almost nowhere to hit that shot and keep it on the green. So you could get carnage quote unquote by really cranking it up it being extremely firm and fast, But at that point it almost turns into golf. It's a little bit gimmicky. I'm all for a hard test,

but these are small ish greens. I know that they play much smaller than the square footage, So the square footage isn't that relevant. Here, they play really small if you crank it up. So I'm again I want to see demanding shots. I want to see some blow up numbers. But you're not going to get that much of that without making it kind of a ridiculous test.

week is kind of lame. It does seem like he was trying to work the refs a little bit and say you better not make it any faster out there, or I'm not going to be happy. But in any case, that's Wyndham Clark's Monday position. Maybe he'll be happier with it as the week goes on. But as you were walking around the course today, Joseph, what was your own sense of how firm and fast the greens were and the other elements of the course out there. What's the firmness level at this point.

Like let's say the pin is back on six like it was today in the practice round, you're not really considering pushing that ball back there because it takes a big hop and goes over the back of the green.

You have a serious problem. So I understand Wyndham's concern on it getting too firm, because then you're almost like playing short of a bunch of greens, which you are going to have to do at Pinehurst, and I think that's again a big part of the reason short game is going to be rewarded here, but the USGA has a difficult job here of getting the right firmness level. Didn't see anything today that concerned me.

starting softer and firming them up as the week goes on. Now, I'm not exactly sure what the agonomic explanation for this approach would be, but that does seem right to me that that is the approach that's being taken at big tournaments now, not just at the US Open, but other tournaments where we hear comments early in the week from players saying it is insanely firm out here, and then as the week goes on, we hear more and more about the setup crew going out there and syringing the greens,

laying a little bit of water down and kind of controlling speed by making them slower as opposed to controlling speed by allowing them to bake out.

suggests that they're pushing the line at all. So I'd be interested in if the USGA would corroborate Michael Kim's comments. But it seems sensible to me.

grass surface bermuda grass surface. Around the greens. He much preferred to take the putter and he did really, really well with it. So you know, as you're going around the course, are you keeping an eye on the techniques that players are using, the different approaches that they're using, and what did you see?

lot of putter, and I think it's pretty smart. So I think like Victor Hovelin is a good example where he I think in his press conference he said something like it might be sixty forty for him, sixty putter and forty percent trying some kind of chip shot. He's a player that's historically struggled with the short game a little bit, maybe resembling Kimer in some way, like the elite ball striker. The short game has given him some issues. I think watching what he does around the greens is

going to be really interesting. You'll probably see a good amount of putter from him.

do a bunch of things with right exactly. And so I'm curious to see what he would do at Pinehurst. Somebody who is really good at chipping and also pretty consistent in the club that he uses around the greens. If he too is putting and hitting some of these like hybrid chips or fairway wood chips, then you really know that something is different here and that just about everybody is going to be keeping the ball low around the greens.

Zealand's success here makes some sense to me. So I think Cam's going to have a good feel for what shots he should try, and he could be another player to look at where if he's going to the putter, it's not because he's incapable of hitting that short game shot maybe like Martin Kaimer was, but because Cam knows that more often than not, that's the right shot that you should try.

pretty interesting. And like we saw in the twenty fourteen final round rewatching that Martin Kaimer ended up down the left, like if you can pull some kind of iron or some kind of wood, but that's not the safest shot, Like if you pull it a little bit, you might end up in the thick stuff. So I really like that hole in the way that it kind of asks a unique question of players, at least off of the tee. I mean, if you're hitting a little flip wedge in.

But I think seven's a pretty cool t shot to keep an eye on.

in that same stretch of the golf course. I just really love the eighth hole, And so you know, when I'm playing the seventh hole, what I'm thinking about is like I'm about to play the eighth hole, which might be my favorite or one of my two favorite holes on the golf course, where that the fairway matched with

the land is so cool. The seventh hole, I guess the thing that I didn't love about it when I played it the most recent time was how that area right of the fairway, the native area and the set of bunkers that the fairway wraps around is presented now because it has become pretty penal and I only really took a quick look at it. I didn't like research this take thoroughly enough by walking out there and looking

what exactly was done. But to me it just seemed like exhibit a of planting too much wiregrass, making it less random and a little bit less forgiving in the interest of making sure that players wouldn't try to cut off too much of it and make the hole too short. And so I wish they had backed off a bit on the wiregrass there. But that's really my only issue with the hole at this point. Otherwise it's just a matter of not loving it as much as some of the other holes on the course. No, that's fair.

that has a relatively tight dispersion. And that's it. On the seventh hole, the line, the distance control is part of that t shot, and that's something that you've talked about the way that other fairways angle as well. It's a cool part of this hole that sure, you can take a certain line, but it depends how far you hit it on that line and how much you're going to be reward and what your web shot is going to look like. In so I think that's what I

like about the seventh hole. It's just something completely different than a lot of at least a lot of other courses on the PGA tour.

isn't quite as severe, so you have a bit more room for error. But the seventh hole, if you tug that a little bit left, which I think is a common thing to do on that hole because the right side of the hole is so intimidating, then you're probably going to find some kind of chancey lie in the native area on the other side of the fairway. So it is fun to watch. I will give the hole that any other holes that stood out to.

like a little underwhelmed by that stretch. But I think the fifth hole in particular is like going to be one of the most fun holes to watch all week, So the positive there, The one that I think is going to be super fun would be five, and then maybe a little underwhelmed by the eleven to fourteen stretch.

I'd be interested in your counter argument to some of that. But the thirteenth hole in particular, I don't think that's that fun of a hole when they make it drivable, And maybe we'll get into that with three watching from twenty fourteen, but it's such a narrow layup, it's an obvious just hit driver up there, and being in some of those green side bunkers isn't that much of a problem.

There's nothing extreme enough around that green to make you think twice about hitting a driver up there, or three would for a lot of these guys. So that might be a hole that there could be some eagles and definitely a lot of birdies, but it's a pretty benign drivable for when they set it up to be drivable, that laying up's just not really an attractive option given how narrow that layup would be.

non terrifying wedge approach into the green. I think that's the spirit of the hole, and for me it really works. Maybe it doesn't work as well for professionals because of how far they hit the driver now, but I think it's a wonderful short part four for amateurs at the very least, and that's usually the perspective I take when

I'm judging a hole to be good or not. You know, I'm not thinking quite as much about how a US Open field would approach that because that's one time every few years as opposed to every single day, you know, like many many people playing this course. So it is a course for amateurs.

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dot com. That's Echo Ecco dot com, All right, Joseph. We rewatched the twenty fourteen US soapen the final round, which is available on YouTube for anybody who's interested in watching five hours of Martin Kimer being the obvious winner

all day long. Clearly not the most compelling final round competitively that has ever happened in major championship golf, but certainly gives a perspective on how this course might play this week, and that's why we watched it to try to pick up some insights about Pinehurst Number two and how pros might approach it now. Obviously, We're ten years on and pros will be playing this course differently even than they did ten years ago. But let's talk about

basic overall impressions of the twenty fourteen US Open. What were some of your thoughts and notes about this round of golf?

your favorite was. I saw that you tweeted out Keegan Bradley was wearing some pretty bright red shoes that Johnny Miller kept alluding to Dorothy from Wizard of Oz and like Keik and Bradley would take a swing and Johnny would be like, you know, click click, and the balls about to go near the hole, like he just over and over again, and.

love it. And one comment I wanted that he made that I wanted to get your opinion on. He says near the end of the broadcast, to me, these greens are over the top. Literally, I just think they need to be redone back to where Ross had them. What was your reaction to hearing Johnny Miller say that on the telecast it just came out of nowhere.

the reasons that maybe he had for saying that. I do think that the original ross greens at Pinehurst number two were lower to the ground, and that they made a conscious decision not to restore them because they needed the course to be as difficult as it was in twenty fourteen and be as difficult as it will be in twenty twenty four And a big part of the difficulty of the course obviously these days, is that you know, approach shots repel off from the middle, and if the

course didn't have that, then we would have much much lower scoring US opens at it. So I see why they didn't restore the ross greens, but I think that the course would probably be a bit better and more varied if they did. But Johnny's reasons for saying that, I don't know. I think he just had the feeling at the moment that what happened to Kimer's ball was unfair, and so he just went ahead and made that comment.

But it is glaring how much more willing Johnny Miller was to be negative and to say true but critical things about players and the shots that they were hitting than anybody who's on any network telecast today. And the element that Johnny brought to those telecasts was just fantastic. So anyway, I'd like to move on from that and talk a little bit more about the play. But that is like a huge thing that is so obvious when you watch those older NBC telecasts that everybody misses Johnny Miller.

So what were some of the things that you saw in terms of shots that players were hitting and the style of the course and the skill set that it was rewarding that day.

The ninth hole is terrifying, like, yeah, when the pin's back, you can go long and you have a problem front pins terrifying like that green is so severe that that was the shot that was most shocking to me and illuminated the importance of short games. So I've even seen a little bit as if we've already touched on of people saying that since you can putt from some around some of these greens, maybe short game won't be that big of a deal. I do not agree with that.

I think short game is going to be extremely important in that feel. Nicholson's shot was illustrative of why.

nobody had a chance. What do you think it was about Kimer's game that made him so solid at this US Open, And what can we learn from that and apply to our expectations for this week.

But I think, for example, his ability to put from around the greens, I don't think that means that there's going to be an inclination to say that short game isn't as important because you can do that, But that's a different type of short game shot that certain players

are more well equipped to handle than others. So I think what Martin Kimer illustrates is, Yeah, if you're a great ball striker and you're creative around the greens, it might not be the type of around the green shot we're accustomed to seeing, but that doesn't mean it doesn't take an enormous amount of skill. So I think we could see some different names in the mix. I like the Australian angle a little bit. As I've already mentioned.

Could there be a runaway winner, Yeah, but I wouldn't expect that just from seeing one instance of that in twenty fourteen.

place or something at the next year's Masters. So this was like, obviously he was a great player, but this was a truly random type of contender Eric Compton, So I don't know much about what his game was. He certainly wasn't super long. You had Ricky Fowler basically at

his peak, this was peak Ricky Fowler. You had Dustin Johnson, Hendrik Stenson, Brant Snedeker, Brooks Koepka, Matt Kocher, Kevin nah Those were the players going into the final round who were lingering around even par or under and in Kymer's case, obviously significantly under par. So what do you take away from that group of players? Is there anything to take away from that group of players?

A player that came to mind or comes to mind thinking about that statistical profile is Kevin Nah back in that in that era when Kevin Na was a much better golfer than he is now, Like not the longest off of the tee, but I wouldn't be looking at off the tee as a huge indicator of success this week. You can get away with a little bit of there's some whipp and even if you get a little off of that, you can get away with some fine lies

as long as you have a good short game. So I think Kevin Nah's instructive of what we could see this week, and then just the general like you're mentioning with Eric Compton, I think you could see a long shot or two that hasn't necessarily contended in a major, get into contention this week at Piners, and we might see some really good players like Scotti Scheffler, Xander Schaffley get thrown off, especially on one of these long long par threes, run into a bogie, a double bogie and

not be in the mix. And I don't think much is surprise us, at least in this tournament.

I don't really like this course either. This is not my preferred style of architecture or setup, but you can't deny what Valhalla does in producing this type of leaderboard. Now, what we're saying going into Pinehurst is that it's kind of the opposite where the course does seem to be capable of generating some more random outcomes. And so do you think that's going to be a problem for the

USGA and Pinehurst number two this week. And are we you and I Joseph going to get some blowback from people who are saying, you guys were shitting on Valhalla all PGA Championship week and now we come into Pinehurst and you say it's a great course, but look at this leaderboard? Who are these random people?

want to watch that hole and watch that style of hole? Like, I think that's a good golf hole and it's going to be entertaining. And sure it might not be the most again elevating talent to the top, Like there's going to be an element of randomness, but that doesn't make it a bad test that maybe would play a little

better if the green were a little bit bigger. But in general, like I think that's the trade off that we're basically talking about here, Like you're seeing more interesting shots, a lot of variety, a lot of different players that can contend, but there is the increased chance then of some long shot winner. And then how that affects the legacy of the tournament, right because you're defending champion is potentially a long shot and not Xander Schoffley or Scotty

Scheffler or Rory McElroy. All that said, like we might get Scotty scheffer this week. He's three to one to win the tournament. But what you're saying, I mean, I completely agree with So where do you land on all that?

once it hits the ground. That's the good stuff that Pinehurst number two offers, and as a result, of that, some sort of stuff we might see outcomes that we're not used to on the PGA Tour because this is a different type of course than the PGA Tour. And for me, that's the point to hammer home that players who thrive at Pinehurst number two, the players who will thrive this week, won't necessarily be bad players or not

have deserved their success at the course. They're just there because they played this course well, and maybe other courses that they play regularly on the PGA Tour or the dp World Tour or live don't highlight their skill sets in the same way or give such an advantage to other players, to the players that we're all familiar with, that it's hard for these kind of more obscure players to succeed on a week to week basis on the PGA Tour because the the Xanders and the Cantles, et

cetera are so geared to succeed at a PGA Tour style venue. They are dominant at those venues. But you put them at Pinehurst number two with a field full of accomplished golfers and they don't have the same kind of advantage. And I think that that's something to appreciate.

That also then maybe come I don't say why they want carnage at the US Open, but also maybe defend Valhalla to an extent because it produced a good leaderboard. Again, I'm not saying it's necessarily the same crowd, but if you turn up like these greens, like you make them crazy, and let's say there's a ton of winds, like you'd get carnage, but you'd get results that are even more random.

So there's just there's always these trade offs and be careful what you ask for, because again the fifteenth hole is a great example, or if it were super windy and you really cranked it up like enjoy watching the triple Bogies, but you're also not necessarily going to get the talent at the top, Right, how about Nelly Corda at Lancaster. Like you can see carnage, but you also might take one of the best players in the world

out of contention. My chances of beating Scotty Scheffler on a hole on the fifteenth hole at Pinehurst go way up when the greens are so ridiculously firm. That's scott Even Scotty has nowhere to go and his ball could end up in a bad spot. Right, So, like there's just that trade off there that I would be very cautious in advocating for carnage.

was just super steady. So what was he doing well? What was his secret that week?

he did well, and he did it marvelously. It's not an easy shot, he was good at it. So I guess that combination of elite ball striking, keeping himself out of trouble and being smart around the greens pretty good recipe.

I mean Sawgress has water everywhere, in Pinehurst has water nowhere, So there's some clear differences, right, But we're also taking Martin Kimer and Ricky Fowler two players champions, and I think an example of a name that kind of fits the bill would be cam Smith, who his form is questionable. He shot eighty on Sunday and Live Houston, but he's

actually been a good golfer over the last year. I know he's disappeared a little bit since he's been playing on a tour that's less visible, but camp Smith's been pretty good over the last year, and he's been good in majors for a lot of his career. I like the Australian angle a little bit and I think he'll know what to do around the greens and one of his biggest weaknesses is that he can get a little bit aaron off the tea, which I think you're going to be able to get away with, so maybe a

volatile option. But I think camp Smith's kind of an interesting name to keep an eye on, who checks a lot of the boxes that I'd probably be looking for this week.

good direction to go to. Something that's kind of odd is that as I was watching the Memorial last week, I was thinking to myself, a lot of the players who are doing well here are ones that I would sort of expect to be all right at Pinehurst as well. Even though Mierfield Village and Pinehurst Number two are really really different courses, do you know what I mean?

this year. It's by far his best short game you're on tour, So I like that call.

of the most fascinating places to play golf in the world. So, you know, aside from watching it on TV this week, I would also encourage people to make it a priority to get to this course at some point in your life and play it for yourself, because it truly is a course that plays beautifully for amateurs as well as for pros, and that is just a massive rarity, and I think it's a big part of why I'm excited for this tournament because it is one of those courses

that you can play too and you can get something out of it that is maybe even more exciting than what we'll see in the US Open, and you can't say that about many golf courses.