Mike DeVries

my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in.

And then I would follow them around and wherever my my uncle would finish near the green, I would like put my ball down and chip or putt or whatever he was doing, and you know, try and do what he did. And I would follow them for their lessons or anything like that. And then there was a little nine hole golf course near me, Frankfurt Golf Club, where ultimately they would, you know, someone would drop me off

and I'd play nine holes with whoever was available. And then when I was a little older, my my grandparents were members at Crystal Down, so I was fortunate to be near that and to experience that from an early age. And certainly that's one of the great courses in the world, and I was able to you know, learn about golf there. And then when Fred Muller came in the pro at the Downs, a longtime pro there, he's been there forty

one years now. I started working for Fred in the pro shop when I was fourteen, and then a couple of years later I was working in the pro shop and on the grounds crew during the week. So every day of the summer I was I was on the golf course doing something, whether that was working, you know, moving bags or getting carts or mowing greens and and or going back and you know, playing golf and then late afternoon or something. So it was something that was

really quite passionate. And when I was seventeen, I kind of figured out, you know, breaking bunkers. I kind of figured out that crystal downs was a lot more special than just the regular Joe blow Muni or whatever. Then I played back in Grand Rapids where I grew up, you know, went to school and stuff, and so I just, you know, it was always there. It was always something that I really really enjoyed, and it was something that was you know, part of my life and my family

and all of that. And then when I finished undergrad, I was a business major and I did something else, worked for Herman Sporting Goods and figured out their mission in life and mind were kind of going an opposite direct, and I was getting married back up in Frankfurt. I came back to the golf course, did some projects on the golf course for the superintendent and figured out that's really what I wanted to do. And Tom Doak at that time was building high point in his first solo design.

And we're in Traverse City and my former boss on the grounds crew at the Downs was the project manager. So I went over there and I met Tom, and when I got back from camping from my honeymoon, I went and helped them finish and clean up High Point, and then worked with Tom for about two and a half years on a couple of different projects down in Myrtle Beach, the Heathland's course at the Legends Complex, and then I came back up to Michigan in the Black

Forest golf Course near Gaillard. I ran that project for him, and then we didn't have another project to go to and that's when I went back to school and I got my master's in Landscape architecture from University of Michigan. And then I've worked for uh for Tom Bosio's group. They needed somebody on a couple of projects as a design associate, and so I did that for about fifteen months out in in Hudson at Hudson National in New

York and the Cordier Valley Club in Vale, Colorado. And then since then I've came back to Michigan and I've been doing my own stuff for the last twenty plus years.

and it would evolve into something else. And so you know, that was a really awesome experience. And you know, it was a you know, their lifelong friends and and guys that you you know, they're everybody's doing really good work still to this day and try and stuff, and so it was it was quite a good experience.

a feel for something maybe. So uh, it's it's you're you're constantly, you know, I mean still to this day, constantly thinking about what the shots would be when you're building in the dirt, or how that's working, or what if we shifted this or move this, and you know, how do you how do you deal with you know, you come up you always run into stuff, whether it's a new course or or an old course. You know, old courses when you're doing renovation or restoration type work,

you run into old infrastructure. You know, a lot of stuff underground whether that's old irrigation drainage. It could be drainage that's not even from the golf course. It could be an old stone drain from a farm one hundred and fifty years ago or something, and it's probably in water.

So there's a lot of things that are that are really different and you have to you know, I think all the above mentioned guys, you know, Tom Gill, myself, Ben and Bill, you know, we're we're in the field because we believe that's important to be able to make those decisions, uh, and and to do that in a you know, in a real time manner, and to sort of be able to assess it and think about, you know, what's the best solution for that, what's the most practical way to do that?

then somewhat close, you know, in the same area. Some of the some of the land had been used for some housing and things like that, so he couldn't use it all or follow follow Languorg's routing in that golf course. They were in Marquette, Michigan. They were doing thirty five to four thousand rounds a year on that. Yeah, very he plays and and they love their golf and they have really long days in the summer and so they they play and play and play and play as much

as they can. So, you know, they they're very active people in the you know, all seasons up there, they're outdoors and because they have such long daylight, they'll do they have they have men's and women's leagues and things and within the club, and they'll do two hundred. They'll have two hundreds around after five o'clock at night, just because you know, people will work the whole day and then they'll go out and play their league. Yeah, so

it's it's busy. We call it the factory short but we so the Gray Walls project, we had Peachevrett, he was he ran, he was sort of the project manager for the club. And then we had a company out of Northernes, out of Ashland, Wisconsin, Northern Wisconsin called Northern Clearing, and they're really experienced with moving big piles of dirt rock. They do a lot of things involved with power lines and you know, clearing in the middle of nowhere, and so it was excellent to have them as a team.

They also they built about twenty or thirty golf courses also, so they have a whole other division that deals with golf. So we had guys that were experienced and knew what was going on there. And then we had an irrigation guy out of Minnesota, See who was really phenomenal. So there were a lot of pieces that had to go together. And you're right, it's a short season and you can get hit with weather and you want to get grass in the ground and planted, and so it was it

was fairly accelerated that way. We did clearing late fall in the early spring, and then really the construction was done in one season, which is pretty amazing considering it's a very rugged site. But we didn't We worked around the rock that was there and we have a lot of really good sand on site, so the soils are

really quite excellent, good, good growing medium. And superintendent that's there now, Craig Moore was He took care of the the old golf course when we were building, and he also had worked at the Kingsley Club under Dan Lucas for a number of years, so he's a very very good superintendent and he's he's he Pete. When Pete Chevrett left, Craig took over the came back up to Marquette and has been a superintendent there really almost from day one.

So really it's a good arrangement and they do an excellent job.

you're sort of portraying for the golf course. So you know, getting to know that person and you know, working with them on a day to day basis and all that's really important one so that you can kind of help to explain what you're trying to achieve and what you're trying to do as well as knowing that then they're going to be able to take that direction and they're gonna they're going to maintain it the way that you would like it to be maintained and if they have

a question, they'll call you and talk to you about it. So it's it's really it's really important. I think it leads to a better product and it and then you know, it's a team job. Every job is, you know, there's a big team. It's not just me. There's a lot of people that are involved with the project, and and that person's really critical.

it's a wonderful, amazing golf course. The ownership has been fantastic. The superintendent, Dan Lucas, has been there from the beginning and built a golf course with me. So so we see each other regularly. If I'm in town and i'm you know, I'm going to play a game or something, I'm probably going out there and that, you know, so we're always seeing stuff and this and that and trying to make sure that that we're staying you know, on

track with stuff. And then ed Walker, the owner, has been fantastic and you know, he has things about want to improve or you know, change this or that, little bits, you know, do we need to add a bunker here or there or something. They've added some cabins over the years and things like that. So so he's always, uh, you know, very involved and has been from the beginning. And that's that's been a great relationship. Yeah.

of it. So so, and there's stuff that's that's on total maps that gives you the general broad thing, but there's always little bits and pieces that you have to

be there and in the field to see. So when you're going around and you know, you know that there's a knoll over here or this valley or something like that, and if you're going around and depending on the property, how open it is or how treated it is, et cetera, maybe you're making notes of the transition from maybe this environment to the next environment or wow, there's a really good drove of you know, oak trees or maple trees or pine trees, or maybe there's one there's one big

tree there and stuff like that. So you're trying to become really intimate with the property and the land, and you're trying to find golf holes that naturally fit into the land. At least I'm trying to do that. And so, you know, with regards to you know, specifically Kingsley and

talking about that the question there. So it was the property had been clear cut about fifteen years before we were outsite, and so there was a lot of regrowth of just a thicket of choke cherry and fire cherry and aspen trees, and it was I mean, you couldn't even walk through lots of it. It was just impenetrable

great grouse cover and you know, bird hunting cover. But and then there were a few areas where there were like brambles and you know, more of you know, like wild raspberries or blackberries and stuff like that, and you know, a few trees left over here and there, so you could see some of the stuff, but a lot of the ground you couldn't. So you kind of had there were some trails going through and you had to kind of get used to that and get get a feel

for that. And it's it's severe property in areas, and so it was hard to figure some of stuff out. One of the holes that I saw isn't actually a hole on the golf course, but it was a really really cool short par five that play for people that know the golf course. The third hole, the middle of the third hole on the left side of the fairway.

If you played a hole from there back across number four and the ridge and number two to where the back te on number six is, that's it's about a five hundred yard hole and it's it's a really cool you know, there's all these ups and downs and you know, little ridges and spots and bowls and things like that, and would have made it really interesting challenging for you know,

for a better player to hit it too. But you know, you could plot out three shots and you know, really try and place your ball and get the position and things like that. The only problem with that is it's a great at hole. It just didn't work with anything

else and it chopped up a lot of things. So instead, you know, what happened is we had this what I call the South forty, which is that area down there's about forty acres where you have the ridge on number two down to you know where seventy six green and four t and three green are. It's all this big area surround this deep sinkhole in the middle of two,

four and six. And so instead of one great hole this par five that we found right away, we have a really really cool little ridge top par three, we have a you know, two par fours, one a little bit longer than the other that tumble and bumble kind of on ground that leaves and gives and leaves you with a shot. But sometimes you're gonna have a blind shot into the green if you go into one of the balls, and sometimes you're gonna see on the top

of the ridge. And then five is a paralleling. It's kind of off to the side of this south forty but plays an entirely different opposing par three to number two into a big punch bowl green. And then you have six across and around the deep sinkhole. And then seven leaves that in a in a dramatic fashion with the downhill drive and stuff into an area that is enclosed instead of being totally wide open and seeing all

these other holes. So we gave up this one really cool par five, so we got five to six, you know, really good holes out of it because of how we could utilize that land. So that was one of the things that you know, that particular question the guy's asking about laying out Kingsley was trying to figure out how those those puzzle pieces fit together. And that of course any sort of project that you're.

like the most. But you can't be married to him because when when you try and put the hole to puzzle together, you know some of those are going to You're going to lose some of those holes almost all the time.

or how does that transition with other stuff? Well, the hard part at Kingsley was east of that, east of the east of the front nine is a big wetland down there that isn't easy to work around, doesn't necessarily make for a great call, is environmentally sensitive, So transitioning that way was difficult. Can't go south off the property, can't go west off the property, so you got to go north. And then how do you how do you

do that? How do you transition that? And so seven, you know, ultimately ended up being a simple part of that problem because we didn't want to climb seven back up to the tee that that wouldn't make for a very good hole. So leaving the property there was was an easy way to think about it. Eight kind of fell into place because of just really cool ground and a great green site at the base. You know that

little raised platform that the green is there. There was a shelf there on that hill and so there was shaping involved, but you know that a lot of that was kind of in place, and the and the big bunker in the middle of the fairway, there was a mound there, and the ridge was there where the what we call the three amigos and the on the drive they were there. So all those kind of tied together, and nine kind of set up so with the par three and having two different angles and stuff, those those

areas were just there. All we did is flatten off the tops of those ridges and and little bomps and stuff and made a tea. So that was that was a you know, kind of simple. The hard thing was what how do we how do we get out there, Yeah, you were, how do you lead? And so ultimately that ended up being do we do that in like two

holes or do we do it in one? And ultimately it ended up being the first hole, which was a big hole, and and we created the big shelf and the bunkers in the middle, and and you know, works out really well. It's it's intimidating for a lot of for a lot of people are their first thing and they see, wow, that's my drive. But but I think it plays. It actually plays really well, and it doesn't play as difficult if you if you don't get too aggressive with it, if you're just like an average player.

You know, if you just hit a regular drive and hit it up there, you have a decent chance. And the and the green is is in a you know, a nice little shelter bowl there, and you can play shots off of the right side, and so there's opportunity there, you know, to start out well, but you can screw it up well too. I did that the other day.

it kind of removes the interest, right right. So I think something that from your website that I found interesting was it kind of how you your philosophy on on adding difficulty for the you know, the really good player and especially combating technology and with the modern game and how how it's growing, Like, what are your philosophies in terms of marrying playability with ch unique challenge and interest for the you know, scratch player.

you know, and then that sort of compounds itself. The technology is out of control, so we won't get into that, but you know, it's hard to it's it's hard to design for that. But I think if you give people options, and you give them variety and diversity, then for the better player, that's more decisions and more complexity, and that gives them a little bit of doubt, and that I

think makes it more fun ultimately or more challenging. And for a guy that you know, all he ever does is just bomb a driver and grab a wedge and hit it, which is kind of what the PGA Tours become just because of how technology is. You know, that's

not really exciting golf, particularly for the average golfers. And so if you can build in variety and interest and diversity and options, then the average guy who can't depend on hitting it one hundred and eighty or two hundred and twenty or how many yards you know, they're capable of hitting it. They you know, they get themselves into positions and then they have to assess. And if you have a narrow fair way with lots of long rough, you know, they have one option and they just whack

it out. But they have they spray the ball, but they get themselves in a bad angle and there's a bunker kind of in their way and they're not really sure. Then the average player that thinks about it but can execute a shot to get into a position that maybe gives him a better opportunity, and he and he does that, then they get a little charge. They get energized about it and it's like, wow, I did that. That was cool.

So that's achievement in itself, but it also makes it more interesting and more exciting for every level of player to be able to do something.

the time. And I, of course would hit it a lot further than he, but i'd be in the weeds or something, you know, when I was a kid, and and I'm out there scrambling and trying to get back and criss crossing all over the place, and you know, I'd make bogue. I'd make double bogey, and he'd make bogey, and you know, let me move on to the next hole. Both guys are crafty, exactly.

it's to me, it's interesting to do that. And I'm always interested in in any any other golfers, you know, opinion of what I've built or what they just played, and why and and because every golfer has an opinion, we all know that. And you know, they may not be looking at what I'm looking at, and so I

can learn from that. I guess I look at that way. So, for instance, fifteen years ago or so, Pilgrim's Run had been open for you know a couple of years, and my aunt and uncle and cousin who had all played golf, you know, more than they were playing at that time. And this is my uncle that used to be a scratch player, and my aunt had was a decent player at the time, and I used to play golf with her when I was little too, but she hadn't really played much in you know, a while, and my cousin

had played something not much recently. Went out to Pilgrim's Run and you know, we had a really good time and my uncle, you know, his game started, you know, coming alive and and he really enjoyed, you know, a couple he's like, oh, I got to try that shot again. You know, that was really cool. So that was exciting. But at the end, I asked my aunt, I said, you know, what did you like? And she said, oh,

you don't want to know what. I know what I think, And I said, yeah, I do, because everybody's looking at something different. She said, well, I just like being out there and seeing turkey and deer. It wasn't anything about the golf. She just liked the experience of being out in nature and you know, having a good time with family. So so that's that's entirely valid. Uh that made you know, that may not help me as far as you know how to build a golf hole, but that's important too.

You know, A perspective a puller. Yeah, that polar golf experience is important to a lot of a lot of players.

any of those. So when you're working on a on a project and you're you're sort of part of archeologists and and trying to figure it out and fix you know, maybe some structural problems or something that was changed because of something out of the club's control or the original designers control. A lot of times that leads to you know, a better understanding of that project or or that designer. So to me, that's always really fun and exciting, and it's more more interesting to see what they did with

would say limited. I mean, they moved a lot of dirt in some cases. You know McDonald was really good at that. You know, if he wanted something, he would move the end of the world to do that. Whether that was leto you know, they they moved a lot of dirt at the National too, so that sort of stuff wasn't unheard of, but it was unusual at that time. I guess you know, guys were trying to find ways

of building and working within the landscape. And I think that's some of the stuff that whether you want to call it minimalism or whatever, you know, that's that's what's driving a lot of the work that I do. And I think that's what's driving a lot of the stuff that uh that Tom Doak and Bill Hans and Bill

Cornback Crensch are doing. So, you know, working with that land and finding out how to do that and finding the way that a property as interests and uniqueness and all that that stuff ends up being something that that can be really really good golf and you meet golf. It's not necessarily having to manufacture something all the time. Just try and get the best out of what that piece of ground offers you.

And part of that is because I think that that transition if you get off the green and you and you just roll right into the next tee in a in a short and simple sort of fashion, and then all of a sudden, the next hole is presented to you in a good in a good way. Uh, then you know that each hole leads to each other in that transition. Even if you don't have ocean side or you know, some spectacular feature on the property, you've got

a solid, really good golf course that ties together. There's a lot of there's a lot of Donald Ross golf courses that you know, we're built in cities or you know, on sort of underscript land that work well in that fashion and that flow together well. And so I think if you think about that, think about, Wow, you know I got off that. You know, it wasn't a very big transition to the next tee and the next The next te presented the next hole to me in a really good way. I kind of I knew what I

wanted to do. It gave me, It gave me options, It gave me a good idea of where I should play and how that constantly works throughout the round. You can kind of think of it as you know, the old guys, everybody was walking, they didn't have golf carts, and so maybe part of that, you know why there's better flow and rhythm to those golf courses had to do with you know, they they weren't thinking about Okay, I'm you know, I got golf carts, I got a cart path, I have this, and you know, and that's

sort of an element of today's golf. But can you make the golf course walkable too, because that's really the way the game started. And you know, if you're there are people that are hardcore walkers, and I walk, you know, most of the time when I play. But that is a you know, that's sort of a pace of the game. Pace of the game is kind of a human scaled, human paced game. So and if you're you know, on you know, this nice little stroll and you have to be playing golf and it just sort of comes in.

But if you've got a bunch of long transitions because you're going through a housing development or something, not that those don't have their place. They do, but how can you how can you minimize those types of things and make it flow better and make it make it, you know, something that someone could walk. So like Gray Walls up

in Marquette, it's a pretty severe sight and everything. And the first t is three quarters of a mile from the clubhouse because the clubhouse is part of the the original golf course complex, so they shuttle if you're going to walk, which the golf course is walkable, but they they drive you out in the you know, the limo cart and pick you up after eighteen. But the golf course actually does work fairly well for most of the part.

There are some tougher transitions because of elevation, but the golf courses is really a pleasant walk and and gets down and flows together, which is.

But at length, you do want to have variety within whether you're just thinking about the part threes, the short fors, the medium fours, long furs, the part five. So you want variety within those each of those sub sections, but you also want to have them feel like, you know, they work together on the golf course. And I think that's one of the things when we talk about rhythm

and flow. Excuse me, I think you I think you have to look at sections of the golf course might be more difficult just because of the train that they're on or what what it lends itself to. And you may have some other parts of the golf course that maybe are you know, appear to be easier, but you might not necessarily score well there either too. So that's part of the you know, kind of that rhythm of the golf course. And in that round and you can

use that to your advantage. So you can have you know, really really tough sections of holes right together, and that could that could be three s fours and fives together, or it could be you know, two long fours or whatever. Those types of things can help, you know, give identity or or something to a golf course. So think about

Augusta National an amen corner. So you know the eleven, you know, is a demanding, h you know, long four with water next to the green, and then you've got you know, this short little pitch shot that just seems to kill everybody's round. And then you've got this really wonderful, short, short, short five that provides all different kinds of options things to you. So a lot of variety in their definition. And you know, i'd say twelve and thirteen or two

of the great holes in the world. You know that helps, uh, yeah, but you can you can think about that in other ways also, So you know Kingsley, I mean, we have a big tie that opens up and you know a tricky, little, you know, demanding second hole, and then you've got a couple of par fours that have this sort of tumble bumble.

So it's not necessarily an easy start, but if you you know, if you do, you know, make a couple of pars, you know, right off the bat, and then you know, you get you know, three pars in a bow or something in the first four holes. You know you've had a really good start, and you know, so things can things can turn up, and you know, sometimes you don't start well. You know, you might get a double bowe in the bowe in the first two hole. I've done that before, and I you know, I've at

thirty seven or thirty eight on the front. So you know, then at the rest of the nine, I you know, I did pretty well. So you have opportunities to gain or lose within that and so I think I'm thinking about that a lot. But I'm also trying to provide

not necessarily. I guess my philosophy is you like to give someone It might not be an overt you know, draw or fade shot into something, but a certain pin location or from this side of the fairway or that's out of the fairway might that might be a better shot. But that might depend on the player too. Some player might might not like that and might want to try something. You know, if someone is constantly a pader of the ball. You know, they may want to be in a certain

position to try something else. Yeah, then you might. Then some other player might, so you got to give them an opportunity to do that.

you know, knowing that it's it's still quite playable. I played it in close to a gale force win and you know, really only lost one ball, and that's because it rolled off of the eighteenth green and I didn't want to go down the bank and try and find it. I think, you know, it was you were able to if you if you didn't try and aggressively attack things, you had an opportunity to play a shot, you know, and keep it low and along the ground and stuff

like that. So that was I think that's turned out really, really well, and I'm really excited about that. The artist challenge there, I think is that it's so dramatic. It's the property. It's the most diverse property I've ever seen. It's the most amazing sight I've ever seen for a golf course. Because you're right on the ocean, and you have clip top holes. You have holes that are in dunes with just really unbelievable movement to them. You have holes that are right down on the ocean level, the

eleventh holes basically in the ocean. You've got holes that go inland. You've got you've got a you know, a headline that you start out on and you finish on this sandy cove beach the beaches and play, you know, on this on this idyllic sort of lagoon. So you know, think of the Blue Lagoon and you know in the movies and things like that. I mean, it's just an

unbelievable spot. And then the kicker is you've got one of the tallest lighthouses in the world, Kate Pick and Whitehouse, which was built in eighteen sixty one, is in It's one hundred and fifty seven feet tall. So it's super dramatic and that could be really overwhelming. And the golf had to be really really good too, you know, not just have is the first thing people do is they get there and they and they go, oh, you know, insert exploitive. So it's incredible. You know, that reaction is

good as the pictures are of it. You go there, it's even that much more dramatic. And so with that over with that sort of spectacle overwhelm the design. But people are they're talking about the golf holes and this shot and that shot or whatever, and so you know, that's really exciting.

little bit different there. But the greens roll through, they're firm, and the benefit of that also is that with this, you know, with all fascue everywhere, the ground game and true links golf really comes to life because when the wind's up, you got to keep that ball down and you've got to have an opportunity to play a little bump and run shots to get them in there. And then if you know, if your ball rolls off, it's

not it's not an overly bunker golf course. We don't We didn't really need that from a I didn't really need that from a from a strategy or a you know, just a visual aspect. There's enough visual going on there, so you know, the bunkers are really set up for challenging golfers to hitch hit certain shots or to skirt them,

you know, to get a better advantage. But there's a lot of short grass around greens, so if you miss it, if you miss a target, you have opportunities to you know, bump and run the on the ground and the bescue really really works well for that. So and I think that was that's one of the things that's really neat about the golf course.

are phenomenal. The dairy industry and you know, the beef and dairy industry is a big factor, the seafood and it's just a really fun, comfortable place to you know, place to be. People are fantastic and relaxed and and you know, we loved it. It was a great family experience because I had the opportunity to bring my family

over there. Uh, and they were they were there for My daughter was there for a couple of months, but my wife and son were there for six months during the project and stuff too, So it was it was really neat.

little bits and pieces too. He did a lot of the original little tucks and you know, Nips to Augusta National and so a lot of his stuff is still out there. People just don't recognize it certainly. You know, being based in Oklahoma wasn't to his advantage. Yeah, but I think it's you know, it's his recognition from in a public aspect. I think he has more to do with his time period than it does with his location, because he did get around. You know, you think about

Harry Cole. You know here in the States, Harry Cole doesn't really get a lot of exposure. But you know, he was in London and he's influenced a lot of guys in the business and did a lot of amazing work,

but he's not really recognized here in the US. You know, Alistairs recognized, you know, because we talked about it at Augusta every year, and Cyprus Point obviously in Royal Melbourne, so you know, very high profile golf courses that old excuse excuse, me high profile golf courses that whole tournaments or have held tournaments that Cypress Point was involved with, you know, when being Crosby had the so and and it's you know, it's still just you know, it's it's

a legendary place. So I think he may, he may, but I think it's more of the time period.

smaller town or something. And then you know, the other nine holes got built by somebody else later down the road, and you know those are it's really evident, what are the better golf holes? When you play those play those courses, it's language there. They're not just you know, a step above their leaps above the other holes on the golf course. And so that is incredible.

which way you're looking at it. But you know, those could those could be kind of underrated in a lot of in a lot of regards because people think, oh, it's just too easy. But if it's if it's really well done, you know it's it's it's one of the more fun holes on the on the golf course. And that's really the separation of the great short furs, of the separation of the great great golf holes and the great golf course excuse me in the world.

the pros. I don't know that there's any five that we have in the world that that is a true three shot hole anymore. Twenty years ago that was true. There were some holds like that, but that just doesn't happen anymore. I think with the technology, it's yeah.

you can get it close. And you can do that with with tough green design, you know, and make things more difficult that way, but you've got to have options for that also. So I think that's that's fun. The fourteenth that at Kingsley is a is a par five, and you know, it's it can play short depending on where you hit your drive because there's kind of a power slot. If you hit it over the bunkers, your ball can carry and it can run quite a way.

And so you know, even an average hitter on occasion has times where he can get to get home into or get really close to the green, you know, which is which is kind of cool. But it's a demanding green and you know, it's a demanding shot to get in there. And the third shot is fun even if you're laying up and playing off to the side. So that type of stuff is you know, I think it's fun and successful being able to do that.

Sometimes that decision might be rudimentary, but rudimentary decision might lead to a more difficult decision, you know, further down the golf hole. So I think, you know, making the golfer think about what he wants or wants to try to do, I think is really good and important and and you've got to have a good green complex because you know, if you have you know, an awesome hole all the way up to the green, then you have this dead flat green with you know, nothing really going

on around it. That's not real fun for a lot of people because that that might be the only thing that some that some golf have. They don't have length, They can't overpower a golf hole, but they can hit a precise, little wedge shot or something like we were talking about, you know, my grandfather and the other old

guys you know, a while back. You know, they they they drinking along, drinking along, drinking along, get it up there close and make a pot and make a five, and you know occasionally they get one better than not, you know, and make make it four out of it or something on it. You know, like what would be like you're saying a long part four. You know, they

would have to treat this a three shot hole. So you know, if they make that that last good shot and they make it four, that's like making a birdie and you know at third face because they're already giving up a shot with the distance, or if you miss,

you know, around a green. A good green complex gives you options, whether that's you know, short grass to bump and run it, flop it, chip it, put it whatever, or does it give you a counter bank, uh, or you know some sort of shelfer ridge to play off of, you know, to get the ball close to the hole. So that's interesting and I think those things make a good golf hole, but they also a good A good golf hole or a great golf holes made better when it transitions from previous fall in the next hole and

all that. You know, in isolation, it loses, it loses some of its impact. I think it might make it appear better than it is. But you know, if you have a great golf hole within a really good routing, that's really what you're trying to do.

the property and that's never going to change. So it's you know, it's a half an hour from the Golden Gate Bridge and there's I don't know five million people in the metro area there, but you can't see a house. That's pretty cool it is. It's a great walk, it's a wonderful golf course to play every day where you know the average guy can get around and can you know, have good days and bad days, and really good players can score well, but they're also going to have their

their troublesome days too. The green complexes are really phenomenal and it's as pure a restoration as as anything out there because of the soil structure and how it was

done in the original construction. When we when we peeled sideback, we could see exactly where the green the greens mix was because it had been screened better and there was finer and didn't have these little small stones at the regular soil had, so we were able to be really really accurate with with all that is an everyday golf course, I think it's you know, it's right up there with everything. It's you know, is it as good as Cyper's Point

Pebble Beach, San Francisco Golf Club. No, but you know I would, I would easily put it in the top ten, if not, you know, a little bit higher. Yeah, that props the tempo. You know, you might say it's a little bit Scheffer has some more dramatic holes to it, things like that, but it's got to be really close right behind that Cow Club's you know, very good. But uh and every day. You know, I'm probably biased. I'd rather play the Metal Club every day than than col Clubs or Possitive for that matter.

my mind, the really great ones.

that's just a it's a really special place. It's always fun to play. They have a hickory tournament there every June, which is very well attended, one of the one of the more popular hickory events in the country and well deserving of that.

that's that's really fun. And then you know, and the post the post part of it is you know, going back and playing stuff that you built, whether that was last week or you know, last year or fifteen years ago. That's kind of fun to do that.

those and with the information that you have. And there's there's not really a lot of stuff that I'm you know, would I would want to you know, just run right back and change that. Just that just doesn't It doesn't happen because I spend a lot of time on sites try and try and do that. Yeah, that's that fact.

have excellent service there. All the courses do, but they especially like you know, roll off the red car people.