Welcome back to the Frida Egg Podcast. This week, I'm joined by golf course architect Michael McCartin. We discussed Michael's background and his career in golf to date, but the real focus of the episode is on Washington d C's municipal golf course, East Potomac. Michael did his graduate school thesis on the golf course and kind of the current state the history of the golf course and Washington d C's municipal golf I would highly recommend giving the thesis
a read. We provided a link to it in the podcast page on the website, as well as a few selected images from it of East Potomac and what it originally looked like. So definitely go check that out on the website. That would be under the podcast page at the Fried Egg. Anyways, without further ado, here is Michael McCartin. I hope you guys enjoy and had a great Thanksgiving. I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I final a ball in a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday Frida Egg, Brian Egg, Frida egg Brian egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course. Who is Mike mccarton in the golf world?
Well, I am a golf course architect. I started working for Tom Doak in two thousand and five at bally Neil. This was something that I kind of worked up to over time. I went to school for landscape architecture. That was actually after going to school for economics as an economics major, and I had been kind of obsessed with golf architecture since I was a little kid and thought
there was no future at it for whatever reason. And after I got out of school, I was bored and working for some place that I just didn't have any interest in, and I thought, well, I should write Tom Doak like I'd actually had a correspondence with him when I went and studied abroad in Saint Andrews my junior year of college, and he told me to just play as many courses as I could out there, and he
was really nice just to even respond. So then I applied for an internship and that's how I ended up at ballyn Neil in two thousand and five.
What originally got you into golf course architecture as a kid.
I think this is funny because it kind of ties in. But the first thing that got me into golf architecture was I think playing at East Potomac Park as a kid. That's where I learned how to play. And my dad would take me and my brother out to the course just to get us out of the house, and we'd sit there and watch them hit balls at the driving range there, and then you know, we just had to We just had to do it. You know, it's like we can't just say, of course he gave us. I
think I got. I was like into you know, Fanta or what I like, an orange soda. I would give an orange soda and sit there and then finally it's like, this is really boring. I better, I better hit balls. I must have been eight years old, and then you know, we started playing the course and that was really fun. But playing at East Potomac Park, where if you didn't know any better, it's kind of the definition of a place that you would you would associate with the municipal
course where yeah, there's nothing really to the course. It's really flat, you know, in terms of features that would be interesting, there's not much there so then every other place that I went and played afterwards, I would kind of compare back to like the blank slate of East Potomac, And so each place is like, you know, you could play somewhere and it would feel like it's adding another
element to golf and golf course design. So I got really into what made certain courses better, and I started reading books about golf architecture, and probably by the age of twelve, I had read every book that you know was out there at the time. So crazy, Yeah, that's that's kind of the start, I guess.
So at age twelve, you were like more versed in golf architecture than like ninety nine point nine percent of the golfing pots.
Yeah, but you have to put it, you know, a little bit into perspective, because fifty percent of all of those books, you know, whether it's Donald Ross or you know, whoever, they're devoted to agronomy in the nineteen twenties. You know, it doesn't really help you. You know, it's it's great, you know, to read that, but it's also not practical
for now. But the drawings, especially in those books, I probably filled up, you know, a bunch of notebooks with drawings of fake two D golf courses back back then, And I think I would even write to Golf Digest for you know, they had those inserts in the old magazines where you could where you could check off what
you might be interested in learning more about. So I would check off everything, and back in the mail we get all of this what most people would consider junk mail of you know, advertisements for golf courses, but it had pictures, and I would like kind of, you know, run through the pictures and like the guide to Myrtle Beach Golf. You know, when they first incorporated all together, that would be an exciting moment for me.
What was the first course where you were like, whoa, this is way different than East Potomac.
Hmm. I think maybe the first course was probably I'm trying to think of something that's actually meaningful. But most of the courses I would I would say that had big impacts were more incremental, like just there's more going on here. There's a Robert Trent Jones junior course around DC called Landsdown that I went to with my dad and my thirteenth birthday. That was that was just like whoa this is? It was a resort. It was in
really good shape. That kind of was pretty meaningful. There are a bunch of courses on the eastern shore of Maryland where we would go in the summer, we'd go out and play, So I don't think i'd played anything that's really architecturally significant for a while, though I had
read as much as I could about them. Washington Golf was probably the first access to a course that has a little bit of a history that I had played as a kid, because a couple of kids in my little league baseball team had, you know, been members there, and so they take me out on Wednesday afternoons, but kids out to you know, unaccompanied.
So then how long did you work with Renaissance.
Yeah, so started a balllet deal in two thousand and five, and then went from there to the Renaissance Club in Scotland, and then from the Renaissance Club to a course called Wicked Pony in Bend, Oregon, which ended up closing in the recession. It never opened. Then to Old McDonald and then to Mexico where we built a course called the Bay of Dreams that also closed during the recession. So that was a tough time.
That's gotta be a weird feeling when you spend a ton of time and just put put so much work into something and then have it never.
Yeah, I mean, especially with places like that, because you're doing it for yourself a lot, because a lot of the things that you work on are super meaningful to you, but no one ever notices. So the thing that really helps is getting the chance to go back and just
appreciate the time that you spent on it. And to not even have that chance is really frustrating with some of these places because they're cool places to be and spend time, you know, as a baseline, but then just chance to kind of reminisce about your time out on the course and what you were thinking about when you did a certain thing, to just yeah, miss out on that. Those are some of the best times. So's it's frustrating.
So the economic recession hits and your day job isn't golf architect now, right, So you know what it was the recession that caused you to not keep going and keep pursuing architecture.
Yeah, indirectly. So the next project after Mexico that I was offered was in China, and it was kind of at that point that I was getting serious with my now wife, and it was clear that we were going to get married, and I wanted a family, and I was thinking about going to China. And up until that point, I had been able to go to projects and work two weeks on, one week off, back and forth, or they were in locations that I really wanted to be like abandoned. I mean, it was like a vacation. It
was amazing. So contemplating what it would be like to go to China for nine months had me thinking about what I needed to do to make sure that I didn't have to take the next job that came up all the time. Just what can I do to kind of break the cycle of feeling like you have to chase the next job. So at that time, my neighbor growing up was starting a company in healthcare it in the DC area, and he offered me work on a
part time basis. And the idea was that I could take whatever golf jobs I wanted, go work on two week, one month, whatever long basis, but then come back to that job. And it seemed like the perfect thing because then I could turn down things that I didn't want to do. So that actually worked out for a long time.
I worked all over at Madina and the Valley Club in Santa Barbara, you know, several other courses, and even I spent a year at stream Song, so that I was still heavily involved in golf course architecture for a while through twenty twelve twenty thirteen before really taking any kind of break from it. But since then, I've just been focused on doing things that are in the DC area so that I can be fully devoted to golf stuff when it comes up, but also be home with my family.
So you're still working for the same company. Yes, that's pretty pretty cool.
It's great and it couldn't have been a better situation. And really it's a full time job now and the stuff that I've been able to do in golf has been just on top of that, so when it does happen, it's been kind of like a whirlwind time.
So one of the cool projects that you've gotten to do in the DC area Schoolhouse n tell us a little bit about that project, how it came about, and you know the golf course that's there now.
Sure, So Schoolhouse nine was the idea of this guy, Cliff Miller, whose family has been in the area of this course, which is in Sperryville, Virginia and close to the Shenandoah National Park. It's this beautiful adjacent to the mountain setting. It's great and his family has been there since pre Civil War. They have a homestead kind of house there that he's now turned into a bed and breakfast and he's like a local entrepreneur now with a
bed and breakfast is the first project. He then converted his family's barn into a wedding venue, and then he was looking for something new to do. And they have this schoolhouse that they own and that they the time operated a antique store out of it. It was this really cool place you can go in. And then he built a little addition with a restaurant in it in a bar, and it's it's got a lot of atmosphere and it's a cool place to hang out. And he's
a big golfer. And so he reached out looking to build a part three course right as part of the facility there.
Better way like you know, bar, restaurant, antique shop, a little nine hole golf.
Exactly, bed and breakfast. Yeah, he's really trying to hit the you know there.
Covering all bases of industry right forwards a recreation.
I mean, he is really like he's he's a smart business guy, and I think he realizes that that area is a place where people are coming through all the time, and and I think most of the other businesses were focused on that aspect of people come there to see the leaves in the fall, and to go to wineries in the area and to hike in the Shenandoah National Park and so everything there's kind of geared towards people who like to do that sort of stuff, or places
where people can stop while they're doing it. The funny thing is, though the golf course is so different from that, it's really the thing that he cares about the most personally. And he had actually called an architect to come out and walk the site with him, and they had kind of discussed different ideas and they got to the site of the now ninth Green and the architect turned to him and said, you know, I think this would be a great place for an island green, and it's this
beautiful setting right by the Thornton River. It's this rushing mountain stream. And Cliff turned to him and was like, thank you for your time, but I think we've just got different ideas for this project. And at that point he had spent a lot of time abandoned dunes and playing with his friends up there because he used to live on the West coast, and so he called Tom
Doak and asked him if he would be interested. But at that time, I think Tom had several projects going across the country and felt like he was too busy for it. And so Tom knew I lived in DC, and he introduced me to Cliff and then we launched into this. I don't know if you've ever had occasion to deal with local government or local politics, but the actual process of getting the golf course built is its own story. We can go into it if you want, but.
We're gonna leave the horror stories out of it.
But it was definitely a battle to convince people in this rural county of Virginia that golf would be something that might fit in and I think we did a good job of it in the end, and actually the golf course, I think is what we promised to be.
So the thing I find most intriguing about schoolhouses the way it's maintained where it's not maintained, the way a modern course would would look out if you know, the un irrigated fairways, irrigated greens and tea boxes. But it's more like, you know, Fisher's Island, one of the greatest courts in the world, maintains it this way. But if you PLoP this down into any municipality, they'd be like,
why is it brown? Like, tell me a little bit about Like the decision to do that was a big decision and you know, long term, what are the effects of doing that?
Well, first, I think it was mostly practical because the idea was Cliff would hire a superintendent, one person, maybe not even full time, to maintain the course and that would be it. There would be a cost of that person's salary. Plus he went to auction to buy all of the equipment for maintaining the place, so we got it all very cheap. But he would need a mechanic to maintain that sort of stuff. But basically that would
be it. Those would be the major inputs, and he didn't know what to expect in terms of play, so he didn't want to go overboard, you know, with expectations on the superintendent for what the course should be. So honestly, when we started we said, well, what's what is the thing that we could do to kind of make that whole idea work. So it doesn't even have irrigation on
the teas. It is just irrigation at the greens. We put in kind of a glorified sports field the irrigation system, so it's not even your Toro rainbird sort of situation it is. It is much more low tech than that. And the interesting thing is the course. Our idea basically was that it would reflect the area right it is.
It is a field, and there's a little bit of contour out there, and we built what I think are some cool golf features, but it's it's meant to blend in right there there we built We planted a lot of the interior portions of the course with kind of longer meadow grasses and seasonal flowers, so it feels like you're out in, you know, a meadow which was just happened to be cut down. And honestly, the grass is kind of coarse in a lot of the place, so
it's it feels like that. And then there are greens that are in fantastic shape that are just kind of out there, and that's the one thing and then and because of that, I think as a part three course, it actually plays pretty well. You just kind of drop your ball anywhere around the tee. I mean you can tee it up or just put it on the ground whatever. It's not what you would typically considered tea. It's more
like teeing off out of rough honestly. But then you know, I think everything else works really well.
I imagine that the like, so the conditions changed throughout the year, and you get seasonality and you get droughts and you get rainy periods, and then the golf course play is completely different.
Yeah, I mean you get some scenarios where, yeah, if you're thinking of rye or you know, an un irrigated British links, you're getting stuff that's pretty close to that a lot of the summer. And then in spring and fall, when you get a little more rain, it turns greener and it can play a little bit softer. But because we didn't we didn't import any materials to build the greens, they're just native soil push up greens, and the greens can be take on that same you know, profile of
being hard or soft as the surround. So it'll play pretty consistently. It's not like you're getting really soft greens and and hard surrounds. You know, it's it's all of a piece, and it really makes for a good feel when you're out there. It's it's a kind of a unique setting.
So from a cost side, this guy, you know, he did it pretty bare bones and then it's a popular, very successful business now.
Right, Yeah, and and it all goes together. Like you said, they've got the bar. You pay at the bar, so they're kind of doubling up on as much of the infrastructure as possible. If you're going to play the course, you just check in in the restaurant, pay your green fee there. They've got a bunch of pull carts waiting out there for anybody who wants to take them. But it's it's a really no cart, no carts, No, I mean, it's it's walking. It couldn't be And it's hard to like.
As I've been out there and and introduced people who don't normally play golf because it's a great beginner spot. Yeah, they always ask kind of what do I need to wear or what do I need to bring or you know, I don't normally play, so tell me what I need to know, but out or you honestly don't need to
know anything. It is as informal and friendly a place to play as it gets, because there's no you're not standing on tradition, right, It's it's it's just a place for people who like golfer, want to try it, to play, and they've got, you know, few clubs hanging around for anybody who wants to just take about and give it
a shot. And yeah, it couldn't be less formal. So in that sense, it's it's it's really good because I can take my son on the back of a poll cart and he stands on there, he calls it his chariot, rides around, you know, as I play, and then my wife can stroll in the stroller with my daughter, and it's really hard to beat.
It's an interesting greens, you know, strategic bunkering, you know where it. I think it's so funny. I sounds like a great place to to like learn how to play golf because it's welcoming, it's you know, it's very casual. It's beginner friendly. You know, when it's dry, if you top it, the ball roll.
Yeah, And the key is that all of those things are kind of the baseline, but the design of the course can be as sophisticated and interesting as you want it to be. The golf course is designed to be interesting for good players and kind of engage people who are just starting. Yeah, it's the idea that at a place like that's not spending any money on maintenance. Really there doesn't you know that you don't need to sacrifice on the architectural interest And I think, you know, I
was able to do that out there. There's every greed is different depending on where the hole is located, which I think is pretty important on a Part three course. Otherwise it's going to feel like, especially for the owners out there playing all the time, I'm better change it up depending on you know, the strategy for you know, it's not even a strategy, it's just like what you're trying to do with your t shot should be different
day to day. And tried to think of different green ideas that would make that possible.
Yeah, it's it's fascinating. I talked about this maybe a couple of podcasts ago I can't remember which one, but I talked about how golf is in this weird place with municipal golf where we show like if if we take coffee, for example, if you had a non coffee drinker and you wanted to get them into coffee, you wouldn't take them to the and give them the blandest and worst tasting coffee you know available, Like you give them like the best tasting coffee which you know or
the you know like the most and that coffee is the best tasting for a beginner, but it's also got the most sophistication for like a real coffee you know addict that knows a lot about coffee. And it's the same thing with golf. What happens is like, well it's the opposite of what happens with golf is we take our beginners to like the blandest, watered down version of coffee that we could give them, and watered down version of golf.
It's true. And I think that that metaphor really extends into all of it. I mean, when when you're trying that coffee, the you know, the beginner just knows it tastes good, and the person who is really into coffee can can understand the different notes that might be part of it or whatever, especially if you're talking about wine. You know, you get into that sort of what is
the what's the documentary about wine? The one that was on I don't know, it's on Netflix and talks about like what people are it's Sam Alier or so I think it's the name of it, right, and they're talking about like, oh, I taste you know, desiccated dirt. You know, this is decomposing worms, you know, or whatever, like rusted tobacco or whatever. Who knows anyway, But but you can look in golf architecture is a good, good thing. There's so much depth to it if you want to look,
look for it and find it. But at the same time, what's exciting for a good player is still exciting for a beginner, and there can be you know, challenges that kind of go across the spectrum and we'll get through to somebody who's just starting. And I think that's the great thing about it. There's no reason to start with
something that's boring. You could be on a driving range learning to hit a solid shot, and the thrill of hitting a solid shot is always there, but it's the element of introducing something that you're trying to get over or around that gets you nervous. Or gets you thinking, that really makes you start understanding the like the variety of decisions you have to make, like how close do I play to this? And is it worth it? Or just can I execute something that you know has a
little bit writing on it or whatever. Those are the things that make golf really fun and take you from I'm just trying to hit a ball solidly to I'm playing a course.
Yeah, and you're having to make decisions. Is at that idea of making a decision and then executing on the decision you make that makes golf so cool. It's not a game of just numbers. It's not a game of just pure execution, because there's you know, hundreds of decisions and then the mental aspect of convincing yourself that you made the right decision before you hit the shots. So we're going to talk about East Potomac, which you did your graduate school thesis on which an incredible read. I've
been riveted by it. But one of the things I wanted to talk about before was come came before we
talk about East Potomac. Came from your thesis. You did a study you kind of did like this study and synopsis of three very very successful municipal golf courses Bethpage, Black Tory Pines and then the Old Course, And I'd love for you to kind of just walk through what you learned about each of them, and you pulled from each of them, and then you know kind of the I think that goes really well in with your Schoolhouse nine and what you did there.
Right, I think, And I picked those really purposefully because they're all well known first of all, but beyond that, I think they do a good job of explaining what I think engages all levels of golfer and and what's inclusionary versus exclusionary. For the old courses. The starting point as it is in like all these discussions, it's it's this undefined open field of play where they're there's all these hazards and you get to choose how you want
to play it. But it's not dictating a certain type of golf, and it's definitely accepting to all kinds of shots. I mean, there's a time I studied abroad in Saint Andrews my junior and there were times where I would purposefully try to hit shots thin or even top them into the wind, because I knew that was probably the best way to get around, and it just it encourages
a lot of creativity like that. But I guess the point of even saying that is that you could top your ball around Sat Andrews, and if you're thinking about where you're going to put your shot, you can do it. As long as you're thinking about it. There's a lot out there to avoid, but there's room to avoid it, and everything has its consequence, but if you're playing your game,
you can figure out a way to do it. The you know, if you're going to take Tory Pines as the the opposite end of the spectrum, it's just so much more prescriptive, and it's geared towards one thing, being hard for pros. For the most part. The way it's maintained is kind of and I think this is a little bit of just the nature of places that host big tournaments, but they they want to preserve that reputation
of being hard enough to have a US Open. So the second you have an identity, right the second you have US Open, the next thing you know, your golf course is being maintained like there's a US Open there every week. And Torrey Pines is a good example. The rough is thick, the greens aren't accepting of shots from from the rough. It's all an aerial game. And it also costs a lot to maintain that right deep bunkers,
so it's not a lot of fun. And actually, the interesting thing at the time that they were they had just renovated the South course and they were thinking about doing the same to the North course. The town actually kind of revolted against doing it because this was.
The Rees Jones renovation of the North Course, you know, exactly recently, same team was going to do it, the exact same thing was going to be done, and the city and the people who were in charge of making the decision basically said they didn't want it because the South course was hard enough and they wanted a place that'd be a little easier and more friendly. And what you saw was that the North Course at the time
was the preferred course of the locals. So you know, the South course was the was the was the tourist trap exactly. Could say, you know, it's like the great, the great restaurant in town that the locals all go eat at, but the big name restaurant where all the tourists go.
It's true. And and because of that because people are traveling to play a US open course. It just feeds into it, right that that is the thing that's and and it just becomes it. It becomes a thing that is not enjoyable for everyday play. And that was the contrast I was trying to draw between the old course andry Pines and beth Page is kind of a middle
ground between the two. It has the same problem where its identity is being a very difficult course, but it's also part of a complex of courses that provide more of a spectrum of beginner to very good golfer. And it's got the sign by the first t you know this course is meant for or I think it's like not for beginners.
I think it's like an expert player.
It's like a black diamond whatever the black diamond sign is at a ski resort. It's the equivalent on a golf course. But there are people camping out in their cars to play beth Page for a reason because it's a really interesting design over a great ground. You it's killing hast course and you could debate how well the restoration was done there, but there's certainly something about it
that makes people keep coming back and it's successful. Even when it was even pre restoration, people were camping out in their cars, and I think that was the main important the thesis was that this was an incredibly popular place before it hosted the US Open, before it had Reese Jones do the redesign, while it was you know, bare dirt in the roughs and you know, just generally
not great conditioning. The reason being because the design was fantastic, and there's not that many places where you can get a fantastic design and not be a member of a country club.
And it was something where even though most golfers probably walked off and couldn't tell you what they loved about the design, they knew they love something exactly.
I mean, golf courses aren't interchangeable, right. There's a reason why people are going back to beth Page and driving and sleeping in their car, and it's because even if they can't explain it, they know it's a special place and there's something that you can't get in other places. And if you could get it everywhere, they would just go and play their you know, their local course, but yeah.
The one that's closest to them. It's just like restaurants.
There's a reason that you go somewhere exactly.
It's something I never really thought about, but like, there's a reason you go to this Italian place over this Italian.
Yeah, they're not the same and people, and it comes down to so many factors. It could be just the chef is really you know, thoughtful and thinking about doing something that provides a different taste or experience or whatever
it is. But it's about doing something that you know, you put a lot of effort and and you know, thought into, but it shows on the back end, whereas if you're not put that effort and thought it too, it goes to like a golf course, like you were saying earlier, the you know, like a superintendent by themselves can make a huge difference in the course. That's almost like they're like a chef all the time, you know, in that sense. I don't know if that's a good analogy.
Yeah, it's almost. Maybe they're the they're like the cook. They might not have chosen the menu items, but they're the ones that execute the menu.
If you have somebody thinking about it, they can make it a lot better. Yeah, it's really true.
It's New York is blessed with I mean they got three courses at best page they are telling has two and a half right.
Right, And it's hard to even keep track anymore because they're like spread over multiple courses.
And the original thirty six at Tory was Billy Bell. But you know, they're blessed with a great municipal facility there and in so few towns have that. If the Chicago's perfect example in here, it's like there's no real good municipal option in Chicago, in the city of Chicago to play golf, Like, oh, you know, And I think that's the story for more cities than not. And you're talking about these are the responsible these are the places
where we're introducing the game. You were introduced to East Potomac as a kid, when you know it was your convenience store, gas station, coffee.
Yeah, exactly.
And but in reality, East Potomac, and this is what your whole thesis is about, was wont so much more?
Yeah, I mean the growing up there. Like I said, the maybe the entire reason I'm interested in golf courses is because East Potomac is so bland and other courses are interesting in comparison. It kind of blows me away. The history of the course, the great design that existed there, and the path that it took to get to where
it is today, and the story is fantastic. I mean, the just to like start from the beginning, the entire idea was to develop a facility that would be a model for the rest of the country to follow for
active recreation. In Washington, d C. Part of that plan was to have and what year was this Around nineteen seventeen the course was started the plans for the it's called the McMillan Plan for Washington, d C. Which included much more than just recreation, but it included kind of a mapping and sighting of all the major memorial sites
in the parks in the city. And as part of the parks there was going to be active recreation like hiking, in tennis and golf, and so the sighting of the golf courses ended up being kind of lumped into the whole thing. But the interesting thing for Washington, d C. Was they were trying to be trying to plan for visitors from all over the country seeing these major memorials and creating park space that's not just dedicated to the people that live there, but to the country as a whole.
And so the the interesting thought there was like, how do we make the stuff that's actually designed for the locals to use kind of live up to that standard and what do we need to design? And they thought kind of they thought big about it. They thought, well, we should, we should show the rest of the country what's possible when it comes to active recreation, and golf course just ended up being like the most visible part of that.
And that's like an amazing thing is that they were early trendsetters here. This was it right at the beginning of municipal golf and just the thought was, let's make this as good as we can possibly make.
It exactly yeah, I mean there were only municipal courses in a few other cities on the East Coast of that time, and it was starting to get to the point where DC looked at itself and said, New York and Philadelphia and Boston have these great courses, municipal courses. And at the time they were great. They have their
own stories to go with them. But do you see, there wasn't anything period, and they thought it was just such you know, a whack, It was a lacking situation for the city that they needed to rectify, and that they weren't just going to build anything. They were going to show the rest of the country what municipal golf can be and also offer it at at the time
it sounds insanely affordable. Now obviously I think it cost twenty five cents when it opened, but it was actually an affordable price at the time too, and they wanted that to be a big component of it.
So the land is East Potomac Park. It's right next to West Potomac Park, which has all of the national monuments in it. So you've got the Lincoln memorials over there, the blank and on the Washington Monument.
Yea Jeffers Memorial connects to the White House, the mall connects to the Capitol. It's it's the that whole space is contiguous with park. It is, you know, not a stretch to say it is an immediate neighbor of all of that. And and the idea was, again, these are grand places for the country and the golf course should be an example, a grand example for the country of what what the municipal governments can do to introduce public recreation facilities.
So flat, flat land, pretty pretty modest, nothing crazy, and they hired Walter Travis. Yep, who's Walter Travis? Where does he fit in? At this point in his career.
Walter Travis was an amazing golfer in his own right. He won the US Amateur and the British Amateur. One of the best golfers in history, and was extremely well known at the time and had trans transferred his talents from playing golf actively to being a golf course architect. At that time, he had built Garden City and Aquanic in Vermont and was kind of at the height of
his powers as a golf architect. He was working at the time at Columbia Country Club in Washington, d C. And Walter Harbin, who was a member there kind of an influential guy in the Washington DC golf scene, recommended Walter Travis to the people in the Washington d C Planning in a group to design the course City's Potomac Park. And he took a look at the course and was like, well,
this is reclaimed land from the Potomac River. It's relatively flat, it's kind of shaped in this triangular shape going downstream in the river. It kind of looks like St Andrew's. Honestly, if you look at it in an aerial he was.
The first in Walter Travis and his player. He was the first American to win the British Am.
Yeah, first American. Oh no, he's not an American, he's Australia. Yeah, but he was the first non British person to win the British Am. So he was a big deal for doing that. And he was a naturalized American citizen at that point, so I don't know what you can count him as an American, but but yeah, he was. He looked at the site and he said, you know what, this is the perfect place to build a reversible golf course. And he was he was a proponent of reversible courses.
Why right, Well, because especially in this in this case, they're a great way to create variety day to day and also spread out the wear and tear from a maintenance perspective. And when you think about how that applies to a municipal course, where the idea is you're going to get a lot of people around, it's open to everybody. And at the time there were a lot of avenues to play golf if you weren't a member of a
country club. So they were planning for a lot of golf and the idea of a reversible you know, course makes a ton of sense in that scenario where day to day the way people walk around the place is different, and so the wear patterns that in a different situation might cause maintenance problems over time, you know, you can spread those out and keep the entire place in better shape.
At the same time, if you play one day in one direction and then you play the next day in the other direction, it feels like a totally different course. So you get a lot, uh, you know, a lot of bang for your buck in that scenario.
So then so then he starts building he originally they just did nine, right, yep. So what was the result of the first nine in terms of like, you know, how was it received and what was the course like?
Right, So it was always intended to be holes. They built nine at first because their budget allowed. That opened in nineteen twenty and it was overwhelmingly popular. Like I said, it cost twenty five cents. They had lines, the course was full of people all the time. The management at the time had never managed the golf course. They did not know what they were doing. They had to eventually
turn it over to concessioners. The National Park Service is the actual umbrella overseer of the property, so their whole system of putting people in charge of their various facilities is called the concession system. So they picked somebody to
take over, and this guy Leffler was the concessioner. He had never managed a golf course, but realized pretty quickly that it was so popular he could make a ton of money doing it, and so he streamlined everything and then actually raised the money to build the remaining nine and part of that money was raised from the government. They need to kind of continue the investment that had
been promised to the course. So the first nine was received so well that the USGA was looking for a site for its second Public Links tournament, and they said, if you build the other nine, we'll host it here basically, and so the USGA chows East Potomac, which kind of was the impetus for finishing the second nine as quickly
as they as. They ended up doing it. So in nineteen twenty three they hosted the second ever USGA Public Links Tournament at East Potomac, which was a great success and the course hosted over one hundred thousand rounds pretty quickly after that, you know, going forward, and it was overrun. It was really successful.
If in a short way, how would you describe, like, you know, just the way the golf course played in terms of, you know, what were the core features of it and and you know how did it kind of challenge great players but play obviously be wildly popular with the beginner.
Right, So I would say the key elements where it was pretty open, so you could hit the ball all over the place and you'd find your ball, but it was extremely well trapped. This course had hundreds of bunkers, and the bunkers faced multiple directions, so they ended up being clustered where you'd have maybe two bunkers facing one way and two bunkers facing the other way.
So it's kind of like a principal's nose.
Yeah, it would be the king of Principal's nose facilities, Like there's never been more principal's noses in one place than any Spotomac. And then the greens were Walter Travis style greens, which, if you're not familiar with them, involve a lot of contour, little ledges, a lot of really natural looking move and they're not. They're not tame at all.
And so what he did was he actually had, for the most part greens that faced one you know, half the green would face one direction of play and the other half would be tilted towards the other direction, So you'd have an up and over in the middle.
And then that backpen would be running away.
So yeah, and and then you'd you'd be running away generally to fairway on the other side, so it's not going to kill you. Going over would be a good play in those experient But there still exists that Walter Travis's original plans for the greens, and the plans are fascinating. There's they're well, they're easily rebuilt where you know, if you if you wanted to, there's nothing. The whole course is relatively flat, so you're not going to encounter a
situation where you like, you can't get that back. But there's there's some really pretty intricate and interesting greens that I feel like they're just waiting to be, you know, put back in place.
Out there a second nine Goods built, they host the publinks and this place is just a rousing success.
Yep.
What happens after this?
So really kind of like the story of a lot of golf in the United States. The Great Depression had its effect on golf, though because it was the only public facility in the DC area, it actually didn't affect it as badly as you'd think. In fact, the real downfall of the course seems to have come from the concessioner himself, who was interested in getting as many people
around the course as he could. In interest of that, he started simplifying the course, He started flattening greens, and he was the person who eventually made the course go only in one direction. Basically did as much as he could to increase the pace of play so that he could get as many people around the course as possible. He also built a driving range on the on the site, which eliminated a couple holes on the original course because there.
Was so after the Travis eighteen, they built a Flynn nine right, and then they built another nine ye a short course, so to say. And then that's when he decided the driving range. He needed a new driving range.
Yep. Yeah, So the original driving range was this kind of small, narrow affair on the edge of the property and it didn't, you know, intersect with the golf at all, and it was I think an afterthought at first. As as golf grew in popularity and it became the place to learn, which is a great thing, the need for a range that that could host more people kind of grew.
So his solution was actually to eliminate the ninth hole on one of the original nines, and then it also eliminated a swath of the Flynn course, and by doing that, the ripple effect on both designs was huge ended up losing I think at the time the range was built. That was actually the time that the golf course stopped being reversible, So this would be mid nineteen thirties, so the course lasted as reversible for fifteen years or more.
How many rounds were they doing a year?
Oh they're doing, you know, eighty two one hundred thousand rounds a year, which sounds unbelieva golfing. Yeah, season, Yeah, I mean it was arousing success. And unfortunately the golf course seems to have been a victim of its own success because it was so popular, they weren't able to accommodate as many people as they'd like on the course.
So the concessioner thought, well, let's get as many people around as possible, So he started eliminating bunkers and flattening greens and eventually building a driving range to host people who are just getting started, which changed the course for the worse and then eventually ended the reversibility aspect.
So how did it post driving range? You know, it's still a very popular course today, even devoid of any you know interest, Yeah, post driving range and post all these changes. What you know kind of happened to the golf course over the years is did the popularity? You know, it's not doing eighty thousand rounds a year anymore, is it?
I think the total on the three courses there, so there's an eighteen whole course, the Blue course, nine hole White course which is executive length, and nine hole par three course. Read they did a total of about ninety thousand rounds last year or in twenty sixteen.
So the three courses combined now do less than the original.
Yeah, exactly, of course it.
Yeah, And what was fascinating is that's with beginners, you know, outdated equipment.
Reading. The stories about people playing the original course when it was that crowded are kind of hilarious because, as you'd expect, there are people complaining about the number of beginners and the fact that they didn't know golf etiquette and they're slowing everybody down. I'm sure the pace of play at that time was so much faster. So when you when you kind of mix that group of you know, anywhere from an expert to a beginner, all out on the same place, trying to play as fast as you can.
If you're going to do that and get one hundred thousand rounds in, I can't even imagine what it must have been overrun.
Yeah, who knows. It's unbelievable that it was that popular. That's the thing I mean when I was reading this, like the amount of rounds and they had, they had presidents dropping their games at Chevy Chase to go play at East.
Potomac, President Wilson and President hard President Harding, I think played there three times a week routinely. I mean there are private courses, as you're saying, around the DC area where you would expect a president to go and play, and yet they were playing in East Potomac, which just shows you the quality of the course at the time.
So today East Potomac it's run who run the National Parks runs it.
Right, so there's been a series of concessions contracts that have kind of governed the operation of the course since its inception. The original concessioner lasted until nineteen eighty three on a series of five to seven year contracts, and then Golf Course Specialists, which is the current concessioner, took over in nineteen eighty three and again on seven year contracts. The problem with that system is it's not designed to make the types of investment in infrastructure that are needed
to keep a golf course because it takes time. Exactly, it takes time, and it takes more money than I think a National Park Service is used to spending on those sorts of things. And I say that in the sense that the National Park Service outside of Washington, d C. I think, operates two other golf courses. So they're not set up to do this sort of thing, and they don't they're not setting up their concessions contracts to deal with it either. The contracts specify exactly what they can do.
They're probably the same contracts they use for all.
Things, and they're they're limited in that they say you have to operate at this level, you have to pay us this much, and you can't do anything that costs more than X. Let's just say that it's basically what the setup is. So from the beginning, the courses have been set up to disintegrate over time more or less. You know, it's been sped up by the need to get more people around and building the driving range and all of those things that kind of happened relatively early on.
But since then it's been a steady decline brought about by a lack of investment in infrastructure, and they've slowly lost a lot of the features that made it cool to begin with, or all of them, more or less.
So from what I gather, there's momentum. There's talks of actually, you know, I've heard it from multiple people, of starting to do right by the courses. Beyond East Potomac, they have Rock Creek, which is an eighteen hole William Flynn design where I remember reading The Nature Faker, a book about William Flynn, like it might have been Harding also said this was like the most beautiful piece of ground
he's ever walked on. And then there's also Langston, which has you know, a ton of history from the racial side of things. It was a course that was built for the Africa Americans and you know, really became the place where they, you know, African Americans learned the game of golf.
Yeah, And each of the courses have their own stories and they're so compelling that I think it's a good time to One of the things that I had always annoyed me about East Potomac was the concession set up from the National Park Service and how it really contributed to the degradation of the course over time. But having done more research into the history of the courses, I realized something that's really made me think about that differently.
So in the nineteen forties and earlier than that as well, East Potomac was the white golf course, golf course for white people in Washington, d C. And the African American golfing community was playing at the time in an area around the Lincoln Memorial and the National Park Service, as the overseer of the courses at the time, had a policy of desegregation, and theoretically the courses were supposed to
be open to everybody. That included Rock Creek and Langston, but East Potomac was the jewel of the DC golfing crown. So African Americans were interested in playing the course, and the National Park Service really protected them and allowed them to go out and play and even brought in police
to keep things safe for them. At the exact same time, the Washington d C. Government was scheming to take over the operation of the DC golf courses, and they pushed very hard and did some kind of underhanded things to make the concessioner look bad and to take over operation from the National Park Service. But the National Park Service fought and fought and fought to keep it under their purview and that and and keep access available for everybody.
I mean, I think they knew what was happening. And the DC government took it over, they were going to enforce their policy of segregation. So when I get frustrated now thinking about the concessions contracts and how East Potomac has become what it's become, you know, the way I used to look at it has been turned on its head. It's actually got a really great reason for that, and and it makes me happy protected that it didn't before.
So it's it's great to learn that sort of thing. Yeah, it protected it, protected it in a much more important way.
So with the kind of push and I know there's just been buzz around it. What are you know, what would it take to say, restore these three golf courses to what they could be.
So the thing that's happening right now, the National Park Service has decided that the courses would be in better hands with somebody that can make a larger investment, and that their typical structure doesn't work, so they're going to open them up. And this is really unusual for them to a forty to fifty year lease and the same operator would have to come in and operate all three
DC courses. Now, the question that just brings to mind like what should happen in a scenario like that, And there's a lot of deferred investment over the years that all three courses that needs to happen just to make them operational going going forward. But at the same time, it gives an opportunity to say we can do something big here that we could never have done before. So it's really the time to say what should happen at
these places? I mean, I know East Potomac Park the best, and my feeling there is beyond the infrastructure, there's certain drainage things that have to happen no matter what solution you want to put in places. But I would like to see the golf course restored to Walter Travis's original design.
The problem with these sorts of projects is that when you start getting into spending money and making an investment in a facility like East Potomac, which is so rare in golf, it's right downtown, it's part of the city, it's accessible to so many people. I think, despite the best intentions people involved in these projects, that can't help.
But let scope creep come in and it's the projects start getting bigger and bigger, and you start thinking, this would be a great place to host a PGA Tour event, and what do we need to do if we're going to do that, And all of a sudden, what was a fantastic place for people to learn and kind of a gathering place for golfers of all scale levels becomes something different and more than anything, I just want to protect what makes the place special right now, which is
is that it's a cross section of the community. It's a place that's really welcoming, and it's a great place to learn.
It's a fascinating thing right now Chicago is going through the same thing. They're you know, they're looking at converting eighteen holes of Jackson Park, which is one of the oldest golf courses. It was built for the World War for the World Fair. You know, it's one of the oldest courses in the world, in the in the country and in South Shore, which is a historic country club that fell on hard times and city bought it up. It's right on the lake. Twenty seven holes of golf
that's really affordable, you know, it's not good. But turning twenty seven into eighteen holes of championship, you know, golf designed by Tiger Woods that could host a PGA Tour event. And it's the same situation where I think Jackson Park
didn't have the design pedigree of Walter Travis. But when you think about what I find so fascinating about this East Potomac is like the intention that was set when they originally went out to do it, and it was to bring off to the masses, yep in the best possible way, and that's what they did.
Exactly, I mean the original design. So it's the balance of there can be a great design and it can be available to everybody, and there's nothing stopping that exact situation from coming back. I mean, it's already affordable and accessible to everybody, but there's nothing that says you can't
maintain that and also have a great design. My concern with the general direction of most proposals for thees Potomac Park is that you lose the affordable, accessible and welcoming to everybody portion of the equation, even if you get the great design. And it's about making that balance.
And that's the thing, is that the thing that you uncovered with you know, our earlier conversation with the old course, the Bethpage black Tory pines, like, when you can hit strike the balance of affordability for everybody in the community with great design, that that's the recipe. That's what's making presidents leave their country club to come play three days a week at the municipal course the course of the people.
Yeah, great design is engaging to everybody. It's not just for great players. And there are pine valleys and places like that that are great design and geared towards great players, but there are a lot more examples of great design that is fun and interesting for everybody. That would be a perfect model. And you don't even need a model for East Between Park, you actually have the original design.
You have the model.
Yeah, the models there and that that brings it back to the National Park Service. Their general mission is to is to and to show off what's great about a certain place, and I think rebuilding Walter Travis's design is perfectly in sync with that mission. Is it is what
should happen there because it honors the history. I mean, if you think about cities, right, they're constantly undergoing change and there's new buildings built, but ideally you're holding onto all the best older buildings and the things that bring
character to the city. And this is one of those things that should be held onto and it shouldn't be ditched for a PGA tour event, you know, course or whatever it should be to bring the golf, the interesting and great design of Walter Travis to the masses, that's what it should be.
It's fascinating because there aren't any regular PGA tour courses that come to mind that are affordable for the masses like and that are architecturally interesting. They end up all being like two hundred and fifty dollars courses that really you shouldn't even bother going to see because they're built for the one percent. It's Chicago had one. They had cog Hill. Cog Hill was one of the great public
gems in the country and they chased the US Open. Yeah, and now the course is empty all the time, and they have a golf course that just you know, to speak frankly.
Stinks'd that's that stuff is really sad. It's really sad. I mean the you know, the the course at East Potomac, you know it, it just belongs to the city and to the people. When you when you decide that you're going to prioritize an event, it fundamentally changes that vibe. And I you know, there's all the models like at beth Page right, it's cheaper for a New York City resident or a New York resident than it is elsewhere.
And that's fine, but it's I think when that is the goal, because you're because the event is the thing that drives. It doesn't matter whether you have a model that you know is preferable to the locals. Even amongst the locals, it's going to change who's playing there and what it feels like.
And I think that that golf course the way, the way it's maintained reflects, you know that. Yeah, where they've lost you know, the fairways are maybe sixty percent yeah what they should be.
I will give the shout out to the current superintendent, who it seems like is doing a fantastic job there. They've converted a lot of the course to Bermuda and cut down trees and exposed views to the Potomac and it's all in the right direction. But I always feel like with East Potomac to the extent that it you know,
it has gone. And we didn't get into this earlier, but there's been flooding fairly early on that caused settling on the property and it doesn't drain very well, and there's not a lot they can do to fix the major issues. But whatever they're doing is kind of chasing their tail, like it's it's only it's only money that they're going to have to spend again the next year to redray in an area or whatever they're they're putting
lipstick on a on a pig. That might not be the best phrase for this, but but yeah, they're doing a great job with what they can do, but you just can't do more.
Well, there's given Yeah, and the soul has been ripped out.
Yeah, there's no design there really too. You know, it's interesting to the about thirty yards to the left of the current first screen in the rough sits the original first screen and it's just sitting there and you would never know. It's just in rough and the cart path kind of goes really close by it, but you could not. There are things there that that are, you know, direct descendants of the original design. It's just there's not a
ton because it's been messed with. But there this there's this like string of mounds between the tenth and the eighteenth holes that used to house like already cross bunkers and it was probably great, like a pretty substantial feature that was that was pretty dramatic. Again, you know, it's just kind of like sitting there waiting to be uncoveraged.
Another key thing with this, the East Potomac model is like what we look at with today's municipal golf, Like the general like the mindset they had when they set out to do things like we're going to make the greatest, like we're going to showcase the model for municipal golf, and it was the most interesting municipal golf, like that going like, could you imagine an architect proposing to a municipality to do a reversible golf course. What would happen?
No, And it comes to mind. My wife is a landscape architect in DC, and when they're involved in public projects, and I think this is typical across a lot of different you know, things that happen in in in public works.
They make it design, and then the first thing that happens when the design starts going through review is the funds available for the project aren't quite what they thought, so they value engineer things out, and the first thing to go are the interesting design elements, the things that make something special. And I think that happens in public buildings now every you know, all across the board, that's
the case. Whereas when you look back at kind of the great buildings, you know, especially like civic centers and things city halls that were built earlier in the twentieth century, like early twentieth century, they're so ornate and interesting, and there is clearly an emphasis on design showcasing the importance of government or whatever it might be. And that's gone now. I just you never see public projects put in a
place that kind of emphasis on design anymore. But clearly at the time that you Spotomac was being built in Rock Creek, that was there with the DC you know, public golf courses, that they wanted to build something that would stand out and be significant and show what's possible.
And the ironic thing was that the design that they were they that these sophisticated, world class architects Flynn Travis were doing, was the best design to get the most enjoyment of every skill player out of it. That's the thing is that what I you had a great quote in your thesis, good golf architecture and affordability are not mutually exclusive. Municipal golf courses need to feature quality design
at a price locals can afford to play frequently. And that's the ethos of this whole thing is that at a core, East Potomac set out to build the greatest, you know, municipal golf course that in the country, and they did it by building a golf course that was still exceptionally challenging for the regular player, but so playable for the regular guy.
Yeah, and if you think about it, it hosted a major tournament in its first full year of existence and still got one hundred thousand rounds through it that same year. I mean, it's crazy to even think about it, but that one hundred thousand round number comes from a full on cross section of the golfing community in Washington, d C. At that time, probably heavily skewed to non country club members who are just starting to play.
It's it's an interesting, just whole case study where where can people go to learn more about the East Potomac and the future of it with this, you know, bid out for management and what can they do to help and if they wanted to help get it restored what were.
Starting to figure a little bit of that out all la. So I'm trying to get the lay of the land and understand who is trying to be involved in this. Now there's an RFI out from the National Park Service about exactly what should be involved when they put this lease out. The next step after that would be to do a formal RFP where people, operators and various others would put forth proposals to actually take on the lease
for the three DC golf courses. As this whole thing plays out, I'll know a lot more about what's happening in the general direction you can go to find more information about the courses themselves by the National Park Service has put out a couple of really good histories of golf in the in the DC area that specifically talk about East Potomac, Rock Creek and Langston. By googling for those,
that's probably the best starting point. You could also read my thesis, which is available on the University of Georgia website.
I'll put a link to that in the podcast.
Not but I think the most important stuff that you know will be relevant to the future of the courses hasn't really happened yet, and we have to figure out it's possible that people who have pushed this forward have the right idea and they're going to go the right way. And I've started talking to people about what their plans
are and still getting a feel for it. But you'll certainly hear about it if it's not going to go that way, because I feel very strongly that there's such a great story to recapture here and that's the name of the game in it, and it goes with what the National Park Service wants for their properties anyway, So I think that will be a big push for it.
Yeah, and it's not just East Potomac's Langston and yeah, rock Creek.
We could have a whole podcast on Langston Rock Creek there. Their stories are equally compelling.
Future pode. We'll do that once we get Once we get the right bidder, we'll.
Do those exactly exactly so or if the wrong bidder is involved, you know who knows.
So you're on Instagram at Michael McCartin, right, that's right, and uh not Twitter?
Not Twitter. Yeah, I'm not yet a master of social media. I guess okay, I wasn't not like you, you know, I just I'll just pay attention to what you're you know, you're doing and and I'll just kind of emulate.
The ironic thing was I was like not on Twitter at all. I was on it, but like verily fairly active before starting this. Now just on Twitter all the time. My wife hates it, so but thanks so much for coming on. We'll we'll hopefully hopefully get some support for this and hopefully I'll'll go the right direction.
Yeah, I'll keep you posted on what it'll be interesting. You've been listening to the Fried Egg podcast. We do the digging for you.
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