Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at b Draty. They have a great promotion going on right now on their amazing apparel now through the end of July fourth weekend.
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hundred bucks and you get a free polo. So go to www dot bdradty dot com to get this promotion now through the end of July fourth weekend. Today's episode, I am joined by the National Links Trust founders Will Smith and Michael McCartin, and we are discussing their huge news. They earned the bid to manage the three Washington d C municipal courses from the National Park Service last week. They are now in the negotiation phase of this process,
but they will be managing these three golf courses. It is an incredible opportunity for municipal golf across the country as well as in d C. Obviously, with these three courses, they are East Potomac Golf Course, which is an original Walter Travis design, Rock Creek which is a William Flynn design, and Langston Golf Course, which has historically been the hub of African American golf in d C. The projects would be undertaken by Tom Doak, Gil Hans and Bo Welling,
the senior design associate for Tiger Woods Design. The podcast leads off with Michael mccarton talking. He was a guest on episode one hundred and twelve of the podcast if you miss it, we talked in detail about East Potomac on that podcast and his thesis on the subject matter. If you want more information on the three DC courses, obviously that podcast with Michael was a big one, but we also have a few articles written on the website at www Dotfrida egg dot com, so you can check
those out there. And now, without further ado, here is Michael McCartin and Will Smith.
I miss the green for example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my.
Ball in a frid Egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida egg, Frida egg egg fridagg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
Course, what was the oh ship moment?
We this? This is a this is a lot of work to get this done. I mean, you guys are are novices, newbies at this and uh, this was kind of your first first crack at public entering, the public domain and RFP process.
I guess the question is are you referring to the oh ship moment that happened while we were putting the RFP together or after we want it?
Because we had either or maybe both of them.
I think there's a moment in this where, you know, on the front end, when you have a great idea, you know, Will and I and a lot of people had come together to say we really believe in this and we want to be a part of it. Going
forward and that that's you know, the easy part. And then when we looked at the RFP and everything that was going to be involved in, all the elements we had to bring together in a short timeframe, that was definitely an O Ship moment and and it definitely proved out to be as much worker more than we could have envisioned at that time. I mean, it was it was an intense period of time after winning the or you know, winning the right to negotiate the lease recently,
the OH Ship moment was a little bit different. It was a little more tied into a motion of how much effort we have put into it and how crazy it is that we you know won, we won, and we're gonna, you know, hopefully have the opportunity to do this. But this OH Ship moment's on a much different scale. I mean, it's it's many years long and and there really is a lot of work. And this is not just putting it on paper, it's actually making it happen.
Uh talk to was there a feeling that you were going to get it or did this did the you know them calling you in a war like you know, I assume that called you or emailed you and awarded you the bid.
Was that just kind of uh surprised.
I think we were confident in the team that we put together and the vision behind what we're trying to accomplish. But we've never been a part of a government process like this, and you never know what the priorities are or the influence influences are in the background, and I was surprised. We had no idea what to expect. And when you don't have that kind of experience, I think you tend to believe that other factors, beyond what you can control are the things that will drive the process.
So to see that the Park Service, you know, also values the things that we put into our proposal, was really gratifying. I don't know, how did you feel? Well?
Yeah, I mean, you know, as someone who grew up in DC and have seen has seen a lot through politics and that and that sort of thing over the last forty five years, you just never know how these things are going to play out. And as Mike said, we were confident in our vision, We were confident in
the team we put together. We knew that there was at least one other competitor that was going to be responding, and you know, we knew they were they had worked hard on this, and that they had put a lot of effort and time into it, and that they were
a bunch of big hitters in the DC scene. It was probably helpful that we really didn't dive into who was on the on on their board until I think it was the last day that I had to pull up their website and read through it, and that that was definitely an O ship moment because it's it's quite an impressive list, and you know, uh, you know, so we just didn't know how much sort of back room politicking was going to come come into play rather than sort of the merits of of the proposal, because we
felt we felt confident on that we really did.
What from your guys's proposal, what angle did you feel resonated most with with the National Park Service?
I don't know what you think, well, but what I was most impressed with in the process was how aligned the Park Service was with the things that we valued and wanted to accomplish with this project. And they're not unique to us, but you know, the Park Service really wanted to respect the histories of the properties and to go back to whether it's the original golf architecture or preserve the golf culture that's developed at each of the courses.
The Park Service was extremely explicit about saying that's what the prioritized, and on top of that, they did a ridiculously good job of documenting the histories of the courses and what eras of their history that they would like
to see the courses go back to. So it's really kind of like a historic preservation project in a lot of ways, and that's what the Park Service is really good at, and it happened to be the exact thing that when Will and I first got together to talk about, this was the part of the potential project that we wanted to emphasize and get the word out about. So there's just really great alignment there between what the Park Service was asking for and what we were putting into
our proposal. So I'm assuming that that aspect of our proposal was one of the things that probably most stood out to them.
So you guys both have.
You know, experience and part of your career was in golf course architecture and from the restoration at a standpoint of if you were going to a club and restoring it, people look at at hey this is the era that we want to bring it back to, or a lot of times it's identifying when the best self of the course was what what are the different eras that you and the nps UH sat, you know, kind of landed on at each course, at at Langston, at Rock Creek, and at East Potomac well.
Rock Creek, there was the there was a nine hole original routing that Flint did, and then soon thereafter he came in and expanded it to eighteen and kind of chopped up most of the first nine. There was only one hole that was that carried through in both in both routings, which was the eleventh in.
The current current order of play. And you know, we knew very early on at.
Rock Creek that we wanted to do some some some different stuff that from a business standpoint and for an engagement with youth, that we needed to add a driving
range and actually a part three course. And so very early on we realized that we were more going for in the style of Flynn than necessarily a strict restoration and gil uh you thought that was that was a great idea and came in and took a look and reworked a lot of the corridors basically that that Flynn used to create a nine hole sort of regulation length golf course, and then we use some of the quarters and green sites from the eighteen hole Flinn for for
the nine hole part three, and then we were able to slot a driving range in close to the current current clubhouse. So it wasn't necessarily like we're going to go back to this year at Rock Creek. It was more of, Okay, let's let's use Flynn as an inspiration and use the corridors and green sites as much as possible.
Like how many how many of the original flint holes can we get into a nine hole routing? And we got I think we have about seven corridors and green sites used in the nine hole routing that we're we're using as a working plant right now. Yeah.
And for people that don't know about Rock Creek, it's obviously it's a huge park system within d C.
It's one of the most beautiful places in d C.
But one of the things with the existing golf course having been out there is that it you know, the site might be a little small for a modern eighteen hole golf course. So the feasibility of having eighteen holes there that are good golf holes is very low. So coming up with a non traditional or you know, new idea that would seem to be the place that fit the most as one that adapted kind of to modern times. Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know, it's one hundred acres and very forested and there are some steep slopes, so it'd been really tough to get a sort of modern eighteen hole golf course back in there, even you know, until you know, the back nine has been closed the last few years because it's basically been overgrown and too hard to maintain. But even when the full eighteen was open, I think it was you know, a par sixty four fifty five thousand yards. I mean it has it was never a quote unquote championship.
I hate using that term, but it was never a championship a golf course even when it opened back in the twenty Yeah.
And then there is a road that was constructed through the property which chopped off two holes, so it got even small.
I imagined.
That's got to be an exciting one just for how much other recreation is going on around the golf course in the Rock Creek Park.
Yeah. One of the things that we've been really focusing on again prompted by the Park Service, but also something that I think we both believe in is how to bring non golfers into the site in a way that
makes sense. And Rock Creek's a really cool example of what's possible there because and again all this stuff is put caveat in front of everything we're talking about that it all has to be approved by the Park Service, but I think there's a great opportunity there to connect into the trail system that exists around the course and bring people into the clubhouse, give them an opportunity to stop for a beer or lunch, and just kind of get a sense of the scale of the place, which
is out in an old open farm field and in the middle of a city, but you can't see anything associated with the city there. So it's got a really great feel. And right now it's generally only used by golfers when there's so many people using the surrounding park, and it'd be great to mix those uses more than they are currently.
Yeah, it's remarkable how many people, both golfers and non golfers alike, just don't know it's there, because while Rock Creek is a heavily used portion of the city.
It just it just doesn't. It doesn't people.
It's tucked away, so it's you don't drive by it and see it and say, oh, there's that. I want to go check it out. And that's going to be part of our challenges is to get people there. And I think it's such a beautiful spot and I think we can really open people's eyes to what in a minute it is can be for the old city.
It kind of the potential reminds me a little bit of Audubon Park down in New Orleans, which I think is one of the coolest places because you've got this giant, beautiful park and you're walking along the path, like I went for a walk with my wife, who's not a golfer, and Audubon Park, and then all of a sudden you see golf holes and it's just neat to see people in golf intertwined.
And I think it.
You know, in Chicago we have it with Marivitz and we have the running trail that's right along it along the lake, and that is a neat aspect, even for runners.
It's probably a nice break and scenery.
I know I used to run by it, but I was a golfer, So I always had my you know, rubber necking out to the golf course. But so let's talk a little bit about each of the other properties. What with Langston, I know it's the it's probably the most functional golf course right now as it stands.
What do you plan on, you know.
From the aspect of improvements and then also what you're trying to highlight at Langston and bring to the forefront.
Yeah, so Langston I think the our focus is on from a so there's two aspects of the Langston project. One is golf course focus, the other is community focused. So we're just talking golf course. You're right, the land at Langston kind of lends itself best as it currently, you know, sits to uh not a lot of changes to the course. I mean, what we're focusing on is infrastructure. There's a ton of deferred maintenance out there as well as just generally connecting the course to the river setting.
It's the entire back well. A big chunk of the back nine is on an island in the Anacostia River and you wouldn't know it. You can't see out the sides of the property to the river, which is twenty yards away from where you are. So we've partnered with the Anacostia Watershed Society to do some work along the
edges of the river to open up views. And it just so happens that all of the vegetation that's in the way of those views is, you know, or at least the vast majority is invasive plant material, and so there's a really good alignment from an ecological perspective to get rid of that vegetation and replant with something that's more native to the area, which both functions better for the environment and provides a visual connection to the river.
So there's that aspect of just kind of emphasizing the setting. Then you know, obviously there's a whole bunch of deferred maintenance to the golf course itself, where we'll be doing work on greens and teas and bunkers. There's not as much work at Langston in terms of messing with the routing. The routing is pretty good, so it's really about improving
the details of the course and infrastructure. And then the major component outside of the golf course for Langston is helping to invest in the the clubhouse and and other facilities to make the you know, the site an even better host to the community than it you know, currently is.
In its past, Langston's functioned as a community center when it's been at its best, and we want to kind of emphasize those elements of you know, its relationship to the neighborhood and the city by providing you know, excellent facilities for for those for those types of functions.
And maybe in in a pro post COVID world, not as simple, but you know, one of the things we might look at very from the very start would be to add sort of outdoor seating because so much of the community gathering point right now is inside and so you know what we're we're we're sort of assessing, assessing everything, and but our idea.
Is to really focus on.
Engaging the community and and polishing up the golf course rather than wholesale changes to the golf course.
Yeah, and more than a lot of golf courses, and certainly it's kind it's unique in my experience with golf is that Langston has this as a you know, large number of people who go to the course every day and don't play golf, just hanging out around the clubhouse and being with their friends and people that they see on a regular basis, and that community is what we want to you know, foster and you know, it's something like we just talked about, it doesn't really exist or
our Creek people don't come from around the area to Rock Creek. We'd like to make that happen, but that actually is already happening at lengths and we just want to you know, kind of preserve and improve that.
Speaking of of that and the community and the social aspect of golf and and kind of we've touched on it briefly twice. Do you do you guys feel that golf could be a part of a larger effort for social reform in DC.
Certainly. I think connecting there's a there's a real opportunity to do things that benefit you know, provide. I know it's kind of the buzzword now, but I think it's it's true, just you know, kind of looking at equity in the city and providing opportunities, you know, to people
who need them. I think the golf courses can be real catalysts for you know, providing some of that for sample at you know, we we've been talking about caddy programs and things that you know, might be appropriate, and we've had some discussions with the Western Golf Association Evan scholars to put in a caddy program at the three courses and that leads directly to college scholarships as well as, you know, an income for kids in middle school and
high school. And definitely think that that is, you know, just one aspect of something that we can do to both expose people to golf but also to you know, provide opportunities that wouldn't have existed otherwise. Yeah, I think, you know, I.
Think one of the things you asked you asked earlier what we thought that of our plan resonated with the National Park Service, and I think our commitment to affordability and accessibility and.
What was one of those things.
And I think by keeping these places affordable and accessible, they will continue to be diverse places and melting pots where people come together over a common bond of golf or maybe just a common bond of being outside and enjoying a beautiful, beautiful space. So it's a challenge and we're excited by it, and it's going to be something we're going to be working on for decades.
Yeah, talk a little bit about the affordability and accessibility plans obviously investing a large amount of capital into improving these these properties, you know, keeping it affordable. Is it going to be something that is centered around local affordability with you know, a little bit more premium of a out of town rate or.
Well, when it comes down to it, the courses are national parks, so they really are for everyone, even if they're going to be most heavily used by locals. So I don't I don't see a tiered pricing system in the future for these core is that that's not the way. You know, just if you take places that do that and do it successfully, and it's sort of it's all
really great, you know where it's done. But if you take Tory Pines for example, and there are people coming from long distance, is a way to play the course at three hundred dollars a pop. You you have to cater to the person who's paying three hundred dollars, even if it is relatively affordable for locals. And I wouldn't really characterize Tory Pines as kind of the place where people learn golf, you know, it's not that kind of place.
But the traditional role of the three DC courses has been, you know, as a gateway to golf for so many people. I mean, I can't tell you how many stories we've heard of people reaching out to say congratulations about this. You know, I learned to play golf at the Langston Driving Range and or the East Potomac Range and then graduated to the Red, White, and Blue courses there and
just kind of work their way into golf. It's it's such a common story, and I think that that is at risk a little bit if you're if you're focusing on providing a high end product to some small portion of the users who come out to play the courses who just just fundamentally changes it. So our goal is to do kind of a straightforward pricing system that's the same for everyone for a lot of reasons, not just because it's a national park.
Yeah, you know, I love the answer there, and I think it's where so many communities and cities where you go wrong is where they get these big, far fetched ideas of PGA tour events and championship golf in the city and they don't realize that in the process they're taking a course that used to be very accessible, affordable and welcoming to beginners and turning it into something that's
not any of those. And I think that's the magic of especially municipal golf and community golf within a you know, densely populated area, is the impact it can have on getting people into the game, getting people outside, being an escape from the from the you know, bustling city life as well as the world. You know, there's nothing quite when you've had a stressful day like going out and playing golf. It has this unbelievable soothing effect. So I
think that's a you know, wonderful thing. The one course we haven't touched on yet is is East Potomac and you know, probably I don't know if this number is wise the most popular of the three courses at the current time, but a Walter original Walter Travis design. And I know, Mike, this is a near and dear to your heart. You wrote it your college thesis on this and we did a podcast about it almost a year and a half or two years ago now on the
whole the golf course. But is the plan to return, obviously with Tom Doak being tapped for that plan to return it fully reversible or will it be eighteen holes played one way.
Yeah. No, the plan is to return it to being reversible, and I mean it makes so much sense from a you know, a municipal course point of view in terms of spreading out wear and tear. I mean, you're right that the East Potomac courses are the are the most well used of the three DC facilities, and you know, if we do our job right it, you know, the
courses would hopefully get a lot of play. And so the reversibility I think actually plays well with that in that you know, if you're playing in one direction one day and the other direction in the other on the next day, people walk in different places, spread out you know, wear and tear in a way that wouldn't be the case if if it was always played in the same direction.
So there's a little bit of, you know, a confluence of good things with respect to the reversibility and put in putting that back to putting that back in place with the restoration. I mean, yea.
I remember. One of the cool things I think we've touched on is that the the NPS did did their research and I remember reading when the RFP came out dove in and they had all this supporting material and cultural Landscape Inventory and cultural landscape reports and had their recommendations of what they thought should happen at these places, which was a great roadmap for us, and we were very happy that it ended up aligning very closely to
what we envisioned. But I remember reading their recommendation that the reversibility of the of the Blue Course at East Potomac Park should be the reversibility should be explored, explore, putting it back in, and I remember reading it and calling up Mike and reading it to him and be like,
I can't believe that they've gone that far. And that was that was huge for us because that was something that we cared about and we thought was really cool and unique and we're excited to try to make it happen.
Yeah, And I know, you know Tom and and his team at Renaissance Golf, they have to be the like the world's foremost experts on Walter Travis in terms of golf architects. I mean, uh, Tom, you know has worked on a number of Travis courses including Hollywood and Round
Hill and Garden City and you know, all over. But then also you know Tom building the Loop also has to be one of the foremost experts on reversibility too, So it's it's just a they couldn't be a better group to be working with, and they couldn't as far as I can tell based on our conversations with them, they couldn't be more excited about the opportunity to be
a part of it too. So we have like a full set of Travis plans for the greens and bunkering around the course, and it's definitely set up well for reseration.
For anybody, for any listener that might not understand, you know, I think until somebody really looks at a reversible golf course and maybe even experiences one like the loop, how does can you just distill in a very you know, maybe a minute manner, how a reversible course works.
I think the easiest thing to talk about it or the greens. For the most part, the greens are approached from two directions. So what might be the back of the green on one day is actually the front of the green on the next day, because you're playing to
it from the opposite direction. You know, at a place like East Potomac or in Saint Andrew's the routings are pretty out and back, so you really do get that counterclockwise or clockwise, you know, direction of the routing, you know, as you play out from the clubhouse and then back to it. If you want to just talk like one hole for example, if you're playing from on a normal day, you finish the first hole, the second ti is right next to it, and you play to the third green,
and then you play the fourth hole. After that, coming around at East Potomac the next day, you'd be playing the seventh hole, you know, and then the eighth through the corridor that you just played, you know of the second to the back to the back of the first screen, and then back to the clubhouse after that. It's surprisingly hard to actually describe in words. You know, it's if you show one picture of it, it gets the point
cross pretty fast. But when you try and like talk numbers and and you know how it would function in a kind of theory sense that it starts, it starts getting more difficult.
And if somebody was just looking at it through the non reversible lens, playing one way, one day, you might see a bunker twenty yards off a tea box and be like, what what's this bunker?
What's the point of this bunker?
But that bunker is for the other hole playing in the opposite way, the coming off maybe the green that you just played, so it's neat. And then obviously, you know, I remember Tom saying on a podcast I did with him about the Loop that you know, from a maintenance perspective, the reversible concept at the Loop only added about fifteen
percent to their maintenance bill. And you know from the where and tear that comes on a golf course, the reversibility helps it so much because all the divots and all the tea boxes are used half half as much,
and you know where people are hitting. The common spot for te shots is separated by so much by different ways they're playing holes that it's you know, you get the golf course gets about half the wear in the in the big spot for and it's got two golf courses, so it's great for regulars because they get a lot of variety day to day.
Yeah, it's it's it's a really cool concept and it really is the type of design choice that maximizes the site. Eddie Spotomac because it's a man made peninsula. It's it's extremely flat with a lot of ripley contours in the ground, but at the same time, you know, the best way to maximize that site and I know this has got to be what Travis was thinking at the time, was to build as much variety into the course by virtue of kind of turning it around and playing the other direction.
And you can't do that on a really hilly site. It's got to be something that facility you know, allows for you know, visibility in both directions. And yeah, I'm sure he was thinking of Andrews and its reversibility when.
When he was designing mm hm, so it And you know, I think we'll have probably a lot more discussions and as this process goes along, talk to us a little bit about where you are today. Obviously you're now into negotiations, but what that means and a realistic you know, what you think the next steps in a realistic timeline, uh for maybe one or you know, any of the projects to start.
Well, we're we're if we can agree on a lease, we're we're taking over October first, and we're confident then that in some form or fashion will be will be operating in the courses on October first. People have told us that permitting and plan approval can take some time. With the National Park Service. And while our hope is to get going this fall on some work at Rock Creek and maybe some work at Langston with the Anacostia Watershed Society, you know that that that remains to be seen.
And you know, unfortunately the timeline between our notification and when we're supposed to take over is pretty short, so everything's a little bit up in the air in terms of timing. But you know, our hope is to hit the ground running October first.
And that's what we communicated to the Park Service. So I think everyone's on the same page about what we'd like to have happened. It's just a matter of going through the necessary steps to make it.
So yeah, yeah, it's a tight window. I've iagined it made. It was made tighter by the the UH coronavirus too.
With everything kind of up in the air for a while.
Beyond you know, a successful business from just your pure operations and great golf courses we've you know that we've discussed and improving them.
Are there larger.
Goals, uh and you know, kind of pie in the sky things that you hope that these projects achieve and the overall DC Golf achieves.
I think that we've looked at this as an opportunity to show that architecture really matters for you know, for the success of public golf in that you know, really great architecture can be available at a reasonable cost. So that's just one goal.
But the architecture matters in terms of engagement.
Yeah, engagement of golfers.
Absolutely, when people will come to the game, more people will stay into the game if you give them a product that is that is compelling.
And the the other goal, which is not so pigh in the sky, but has kind of been driven home over the last week, as you know, we've been hearing from people who are hearing about the National Link Strust and this process is just we want to be really
good stewards to these golf courses. They're they're so meaningful to so many people there justifiably on the National Register of Historic Places, and we want to make sure that what we do, you know, is the best thing that we can do for the properties and and make sure
that they thrive going into the future. I mean, we've got we've got ideas that we think are going to make that happen, but but really just the amount of emotion and you know, uh, meaningfulness that people have attached to these courses makes it something that I know will and I look at and and I want to make sure we you know, take care of and foster into
the future. That's not a the sky thing is just like so important to be doing, you know, what we can to to make sure that we do a good job and that you know, the best things happen out there.
That's uh, that's great.
I mean it's what every community probably would like to hear about, you know, people that are coming to take over their golf courses and run them. You know, simple thing. How can how can anybody help? Whether you live in LA or you know, if you're in d C. How can people help? Uh with you guys, And is there any opportunities for people to get involved with what you guys are doing?
Well?
Uh, As any project like this, you know, money is always necessary, and so I don't want to sit there and say that's the only way to be involved, But an easy way to be involved would be to go to National Leaks Trust dot com check us out and potentially donate. We've got a couple of uh of merchandise items up there. If someone wants to show show the support as they go out and play golf or just donate,
but you know, there there are. It's incredible how many people have reached out and saying how do I how do I get involved? And you know, please please reach out, send us an email, and we're we're trying to sort of sort through all that and you know at some point where there will be some some job opportunities, both with the National Links Trust and with with our management partner Truon, who has just been incredible from the very
get go helping us through this process. So I really do think it's an incredible opportunity to be part of something that'll be great for the game of golf at the City of DC and hopefully, you know, municipal golf all across the country great.
So thank you guys for the time, and congratulations again and and thanks from the Greater golf community. We can't wait to see what what you guys do in DC and I think it could have a massive impact on the on the game of golf and you know, municipal goth in the future.
Thanks for all your support.
It's been it's been fun talking to you over the last eighteen months about this project.
Yeah, yes.
I mean when you told me it was happening, I had to just kind of pinch. I was like, Holy cow, I can't believe that actually happened. So I think of I probably if you look back to the to the time of me and Michael did the first part, and I was like, I kind of.
Was like, God, that kind of was fast.
You know, It's true, it's true, it's it's been it's been a whirlwind in a in a really good way. Yea. Hopefully we're hopefully we're you know, five years down the road and we're looking back and saying, man, I can't believe how much we've accomplished, you know, in that time span.