I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a fried.
Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, Fridagg Fridagg, Brian egg Lie, I'm about ready to run.
Off of the course. Welcome back to the Friday Golf Podcast. I'm your host, Andy Johnson, and today I'm excited. Uh, We're gonna do a little more Ryder Cup debrief. This is mostly about just golf courses, batch play, set up, that type of stuff. I'm talking with Joseph Leamania and Garrett Morrison of Friday Golf. And then in the back half I am joined by US Midam champ Brandon Holtz from Bloomington, Illinois, who was nice enough to join right
after winning the Midam a couple of weeks ago. So we had a lively discussion about his path, which is a pretty incredible one playing college basketball and now and now playing you know, midam golf and winning the US Midam. So we talk about that, also talk a little read stated AM's a hot topic in the amateur golf world. And yeah, so this was a really fun podcast. I hope you guys enjoy it. And before we get to the podcast, let's talk about our friends over at Club Champion.
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I thought, one aspect of the Ryder Cup, which I think I could make some giant takeaways from. I think it was actually very revealing. Of a few things was the setup. So to talk about the venue set up and in future venues and future venues we might like to see. We're going to bring in Joseph Lamannia from Friday Golf, who was on the grounds, and of course our our architecture expert, Garrett Morrison, who was watching from home. So guys, welcome on. How are you?
How are you? Joseph?
I'm great, this is an interesting week. Good to be on site as for part of his my second Ryder Cup, one as a fan, now one as a member of media. So it was an illuminating experience. What was it like for you, Garrett.
It was not nearly as strenuous as it was for you guys. I got to just watch from home and fire off some tweets, So good week for me overall.
Well, let's get into it. I think like I'd love to chat with you guys a little bit, and obviously you both bring a little bit different perspective. But setup was a big chatter. Obviously, Keithan Bradley made the decision to cut the rough, make a very short rough, very unpenalizing off the fairway, and that combined with a Wednesday or Thursday rain, really created a soft setup and something I guess I've kind of crystallized on off with high
level professionals men, particularly Bethpage Blacks. Probably biggest weakness as a golf course is it's greens. They are very boring, very dull, flat. They sometimes rely on tilt, but nothing very extreme. They kind of are situated on a lot of times ridges but then very flat and there their surrounds are very benign in the sense of like if you miss the green, it's a pretty simple chip shot.
With how soft they were, I have kind of crystallized around the setup that that boring, mundane, featureless greens render really bad tests of golf for professional golfers, and I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are.
Well, I agree with you, and I think most of where intrigue comes from in professional golf is when the ball is on the ground, and there's no better example of that than around the greens. So, especially when it rained, especially when they chopped the rough down, getting up and down was very easy. I think that did backfire on the United States. I don't know how much you want to get into the captaining decisions there, but not a
huge effect. I feel like people are getting a little bit carried away with some of the core setup stuff and how that disadvantaged the United States. I think we need to keep that in perspective. But I completely agree with you that you said it very well of Valhalla that a golf course like that is asking a question that was answered a decade ago of how high and
straight can you hit the ball off the tea. If there's not a lot of intrigue off of the tea, like there isn't at beth Page, then there better be some defense in the greens. Otherwise it's just robotic golf, so I do kind of I'm somewhat sympathetic to the idea that Ryder Cup venues probably matter a little bit less the test that is presented than major championships, for example, because people aren't as focused on the score and the
shots that people are hitting. But I still think Beth Page was quite underwhelming from a shot value standpoint.
Real quick follow up, how would you have set it up if you were Keigan Bradley.
Well, on paper, those teams were very bounced, So I think Keegan's talking about how he regrets it and how he wished he had gone with his intuition. I don't think people should kill him too much for the course setup, but I do think of a more accuracy geared course and a more demanding course from tee to green would have been beneficial for the United States a little bit
more of a talented team. On paper that it was close, But I think the biggest thing is he was muting the strength of his best player, Scotti Scheffler, who I would cater a golf course towards. You know he's going to play four or five matches. You know Rory's going to play four or five matches, and you know, Scotty hits the ball appreciably shorter and straighter than Rory does, so I think it makes a lot of sense to build this and geared a little bit more towards accuracy.
At the same time, Cameron Young went out and played unbelievable golf predominantly from the rough, and Bryson de Shambo's not the most accurate driver of the golf ball, so I think it should be kept in check a little bit, like they're accurate drivers of the golf ball on Europe too. It wouldn't have fundamentally changed the outcome of the competition, but if I were Keygan, yes, I would have set it up to be more of an accuracy test.
I think also when you combined Scottie and then some other auto qualifiers Russell Henley, JJ Spahn, another one that would jump to mind that was on the team was Calm Morikawa. Right, those are all accuracy driven, accuracy slash precision driven players, and I think that's where the setup kind of let them down was that, you know, especially in Henley and Spawns case, those are two of your
best players coming in into the event. You could even throw maybe Harris English into that bucket, but he can play kind of anywhere. I'd say he's kind of all around player.
Tom Berriot was a very accurate driver of the golf ball too, though, like just just to be clear, there was accuracy on the European side as well.
Garrett, I'd like to hear from you kind of watching ot TV, you know, and understanding the architecture of beth Page what did you think? I you know, if it had been firm, would we have enjoyed the short rough setup.
If it had been firm, it would have been very different, I think, and that was to me the biggest factor. The rof got all the attention and that was a big difference. It changed the off the t characteristics of the golf course quite a bit. When we see PGA Championships at Bethpage Black, basically those tournaments are all about the rough and that factor wasn't there this time, and
that was notable. But I think from an entertainment perspective, the main thing, the main limiting factor for this Ryder Cup was the softness of the greens and the way that the ball just wasn't going anywhere, either landing in the fairway or landing on the green. I'm not sure they could have done much about the fairways. Listen, this is an old golf course. They probably don't have the single most up to date state of the art drainage and irrigation system at this course, though they do a
really good job. The greens though, oh my gosh, I mean, they were just it was a non factor. It was truly a non factor in approach play. Wherever players were playing from. It didn't matter if they were in whatever rough was there or in the fairway. The ball was landing on the green and doing pretty much the same thing every single time. And it really took the air out of the gall component of the telecast for me.
And that was a real shame. And it's something that I wonder if is even on the PGA of America's or Team USA's mind, or on the mind of the European Tour or Team Europe when the Ryder Cup is over there, do they think about setting up golf courses for an entertainment value. I don't think they really do. I think they think about setting it up to advantage
their team. Now, I'm not sure exactly what Team USA was thinking in this case, how they were what they're working theory of how this setup would advantage their team was But certainly it didn't have any entertainment value about it, and I think that should be something. Why not make the product as entertaining as possible and try to marry that with some kind of benefit to your team. I would hope that some kind of service to the fans
would be a consideration here, But it didn't. Certainly didn't seem to be the case this time.
Yeah. I'm shocked, honestly, and I think KEIEA Bradley was too. It didn't rain after Thursday, and I was shocking.
Dry out What were they doing? Were they putting water on the course?
They had to have been to a certain extent, because those greens just never dried out. I couldn't believe how soft they were, you know. And it became it became a situation where it was beneficial to be in the rough versus the fairway because of.
Because of spin, yeah, because the ball was sucking back so much on the approaches from the fairway.
Absolutely, it was I you know, I've been thinking about and you know, kind of the thesims I brought up over at the top. You know, I don't think you know, beth Bage's greatest asset is this topography, and it's got some mundane pieces of the property, but it also has some stunning landforms where you're playing up and in around.
And I think that variety is good.
I like that about the property and where this I think the setup was kind of I kind of liked the short rough from the sense of like what it did, but then with the greens just having nothing where you know, there was no contours that reinforced good or bad. You know, where you have this beautiful land, but then the greens
don't reinforce any semblance of strategy on it. And I think, like, I think, if they had a set of greens, and I know that like just wave your wand and put one of the best sets of greens in the world there. But if they had a set of greens, let's just use Augustin National set that everybody knows on that property. With the way it was set up, it would have
been enthralling. And that's I guess my biggest takeaway. And I started to think through major championships and where they fall into buckets for me of like intrigue, and it's why beth Page comes in solo. It's why Valhalla comes in solo. You have to have great greens to test
the modern player. And this week you just could see these guys hit it, you know, and it was amazing to watch them make these twenty footers after twenty footer and seemingly like make fifteen footers like eight footer normally. But then you start to zoom out and you start to think about it, It's like, well, there was not a lot. There's not a luck going on with the greens, so you could hit it to fifteen feet and be
okay and not be have a difficult putt. That's something I think that like amplified.
You know.
I do think that it was harder if you were out of position than if you were in position. You know, you saw people struggle when they were out of position to hit it close. But I just don't think the value of hitting it close was as high as it normally is because of the greens. Would you agree with that, Joseph?
Yeah, I think especially to backpins, you saw golfers really struggling to take spin off with some of their wedges, Like the eighteenth hole is an example. We're hitting that way uphill hard with a wedge and taking spin off to a back pin from the fairway was very difficult and tripping a lot of those golfers off. So yeah, you saw it in the data. I know Data Golf put some stuff out there about how there was virtually
no penalty. I don't know what the final number ended up being, but it should be somewhere around like between a tenth of a shot and two tenths of a shot, which is a very small penalty if you didn't have some kind of tree in your way. There was almost
no penalty to being in the rough. And not to derail the conversation at all, but I think one part of all of this that is probably missing from the conversation a little bit into Garrett's point about entertainment value should be part of how you set the golf course up. They just hosted a huge event at Bethpage Black whose identity is being a difficult golf course, and it was as easy as it could possibly be presented. I think that would be my question to both of you, did
Bethpage lose some of its identity this past weekend? Because I think I could make a pretty serious argument that it did, and there were fans all throughout the property, saying something to that effect that I've never seen it play this easy. It's way harder for me. Didn't we lose some thing this past weekend by setting up the golf course that way?
PJ said it before the tournament. He was on top of this. He's familiar with a Long Island guy who wrote a good piece for the newsletter about how this was sort of a disgraceful set up for Beth Page Black. I think it absolutely hurt Bethpage Black's reputation this week that it was set up in this way and it
was so obviously easy. And it's kind of funny that that came through so clearly in a match play event, because normally we would have to use the scoreboard for reference, the leaderboard for reference as to how easy a course is playing. But this week it was just so obvious that it was a pillow out there and it was target practice for these guys, And I don't know. I think what I take away from it is that Bethpage Black is no longer big enough to challenge these players.
For a long time. For decades, part of the challenge of Bethpage Black was its scale, its length, the size of its topography. Even back in two thousand and two, this was a challenging course in terms of its size for the US Open field. It's not that way anymore. The course is really reliant on setup to uphold its reputation as an extremely difficult golf course for pros. So when you bring the pros to this course, in order to make the course seem difficult, you have to narrow
the fairways. You have to grow up the rough, you have to make the greens firm. You have to do these things because the scale of the pro's game now dwarfs the scale of Bethpage Black, and that wasn't the case until fifteen to twenty years ago.
I mean you had guys playing alternate shot, which is a challenging forma head of golf, and being seven eight hunder par. You know, people going out in thirty on.
The front nine, and it wasn't Fleetwood and Rory, I think who went out.
I mean they made a boxery course of I would say, like if I had to point to one hole, and I know it's different with thicker rough, but to me, what was alarming is just the clubs that people were hitting into fifteen, which is widely regarded as one of the hardest holes in the world, and you see players even with soft conditions, getting short irons in their hands. And that that hole, if you go back to two thousand and two, people were hitting long irons into it,
and it's just a drastically different proposition and challenge. You know that that whole closing stretch, you know, when you zoom out to fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen was considered one of the hardest closing stretches in golf. And I know that seventeenteen didn't play all the way back, but if you look at that stretch, eighteen people could just bypass the bunkers. Seventeen was a scoring opportunity, the same with sixteen.
You know, sixteen was just a driver in a wedge, and fifteen we saw way more low numbers than big numbers. And I think from that sense, what you're saying about the identity of best page Black is absolutely true. The you know, and I think the setup is obviously one thing. I think like what's interesting is when you go forward, people always say match play, Oh, it doesn't matter, the
venue doesn't matter. But we saw this year that the venue did matter in terms of how it was set up and how it recovered from from a rain event, a relatively small rain event, and how it had a lasting impact. You know, without a doubt, those greens being so soft were created a huge, you know, an advantage to be in the rough. If the greens weren't soft, I think that advantage would have gone away. You would
have seen more reward from the from the fairways. So I'm interested as we move forward, you know, is there here's here's the lineup of of upcoming Ryder Cup venues. We've got a dere Manor Max and twenty seven hazel
Teine National who has hired Davis Love's architecture group. But from what I've gathered, they they there cannot be work done on the golf course before the Ryder Cup because of the contract with the PGA had it had the course as is written into the language, so that will not be renovated until after.
It's so weird.
I mean, when they sc scheduled that Ryder Cup at Hazelteene and the club soon after hired Love Golf Design as it's consulting firm. I thought, Okay, they're going to create a new Ryder Cup course at hazelteen, and they've hired a pretty talented architecture firm to do the work. I was excited about that, but then it comes out that they're why wouldn't they? I mean it just it's so confusing. I don't get it.
Yeah, they're hosted the KPMG Women's next year, and so if you look at it, twenty six to twenty nine, plenty of time to turn around a.
Golf Yeah, you could do it, and you could do it in two years. You could do the thing that you need to do at Hazelteine in two years.
But so we will get the Hazelteine you saw in twenty sixteen, the hazelteen you'll see next year at the KPMG Women's, the hazelteen you saw at the USM. Then we go to Spain, we go to coast of Brava. I don't know much about that golf course.
Camera roll. It's called or I might be pronouncing that wrong. C am I R A L And yeah, it's on the it's it's in Cataloonia. It's a kind of an hour outside of Barcelona. I did a little bit of research on this course. There's some interesting stuff about it. I do not think it's a good golf course.
Though, sounds like one that might be a nice one to go with the wife.
Though, too.
Oh yeah, great great wine region, just like it would be. That would be an amazing trip.
Sounds like one to go to the place, not for the golf, but.
For like the food, for the restaurants and the line. Yeah, go to Barcelona.
And then twenty thirty three Olympic Club, which you know, if I'm an Olympic Club member, after all, I just saw at at Bethpage, I'm on full alert. Like I am, I'm not allowing what just happened to happen at my course.
You're talking set up? Are you talking up?
Oh?
Yeah, because the Olympic Club members are so proud of the difficulty of the late course. So if they get if they get Bethpage blacked, they're not going to be They're not going to be happy about that.
And then and then Congressional in twenty thirty seven, which is a very long time away. It's eleven years. None of the players, I mean, it'd be amazing if any of the players are still playing at that point, but I find that doubtful. Twelve years. Who would be the best contender to be still playing.
Joseph blud Big.
I mean he'd be thirty eight.
Maybe the boy Guards.
I think there's a better chance Ludviig's playing than the Hoyguards, respectfully.
So with that, uh, what stands out to you about about the future venues? And is there one that you're you're keen to.
See, Joseph if you want me to jump in here, sure. The thing that I think is interesting about these venues is the different tactics that the European Tour and the PGA of America have taken in selecting venues. It looks to me like the PGA of America is basically establishing a roda, which I would call a kind of USGB roda. Right, the USGA has its RODA with Oakmont and Shinnecock Hills and really the elite golf courses of the United States, and the PGA of America has sort of gathered up
all the leftovers. And there are some really good golf courses. But listen, I mean, Baltis Ral is not Shinnecock Hills. I really like Baltisral. I think the renovation work there is great but I think no one's going to argue that it's anything like the level of golf course or level of championship venue that Oakmont or Marion or even
Pinehurst would be. And so the USGA has really commanded the greatest, most prestigious championship venues in America for its championships, and the PGA of America has been left basically taking the courses that have been passed over by the USGA. And so the PGA Rhoda is kind of aernomic. The Olympic Club, Baltus Rawl Congressional, Kiawa, Southern Hills, oak Hill, well, there are some really good golf courses there, but it's not the US Open.
And for the Ryder Cup, what happens is that list gets even smaller because a lot of those places you just listed are not big enough to host a modern day Ryder Cup, which is because the root of the issue of venues with this tournament.
I don't think you can take it to Southern Hill Pills, right.
No.
Be a delightful time a year for it.
There a really good and a really good golf course, but it's not big enough. You kind of need at the six All facility.
Kia was too small for a Ryder Cup, which you know I brought. I you know, Joseph, would you be in favor of a smaller on site footprint and a greater emphasis on the overarching product?
Yeah, but doesn't that mean that they have to sell way more commercials if they're significantly reducing the on site footprint, in which case than the television product might suffer. But yeah, Like, I think watching the Walker Cup at Cyper's point was illuminating that with a really when the when the focus is actually on the golf and the visuals, it was an incredible viewing experience. It probably wasn't the most commercially successful, but I guess that's the trade off that the PGA
of America isn't willing to make. But yes, Andy, I would be in fase from so many different standpoints of reducing the on site footprint. I just don't think that's
ever going to happen. And we've talked about it so many times on this pot of why there's a void in the market potentially for new venues, and I think if they're forward thinking, they would build one or two awesome, awesome venues with some of this revenue so that you could have a decent on site footprint and not put you know, PJ called out like they're putting grand stands in places on the golf course at beth Page that normally shots could end up. So I think it is compromising the golf courses.
What's interesting is there, you know, they're so booked out with both championships and the USCA likewise, and they've kind of booked everything under a preconceived or a conceived model of sorts of how how the business works. And I think like what's fascinating right now with with everything going on with with sports is that, you know, cable subscriptions are only continuing to dwindle, and the way we consider a broadcast in ten years is likely going to be very, very,
very different than what we see today. It could be a situation where you're looking at a streaming platform that comes in and scoops up these things, and how the streaming platform is probably looking at it is mostly subscription based, right, which would completely change kind of the objectives and or goals of set broadcast on what we're trying to achieve with this.
Now.
You know, you see Peacock that still has ads and you know, Netflix has introduced some ads, but like that primary reason for atting these these events is for subscriptions, which completely changes kind of the paradigm of I think how we would look at one of these broadcasts. So, what's what's a little you know, I guess, like, what's
what's kind of something to watch? Is is there twelve years out with some of these things, we're twenty years out and they don't really know what the business, the economics of their of their their TV product is going to be at that point.
Are you are you throwing that out there from the standpoint of which venues they should be scheduling?
Yeah, how would that change what venues they schedule? Do you think they could go smaller? Basically?
I think that's that would be my big and that you know, you heard seth Wah describe the you know, booking of venues way out as irresponsible And maybe this is one of the reasons is like, you know, it's really hard to project what a business is going to look like in five years, let alone twenty, and here we are locked up with venues for the foreseeable future, but we don't necessarily have certainty of what the business
is going to look like what could VR introduce? Could VR introduce something that dramatically changes you know, us wanting to go on site for an experience anyways?
Yeah, I love the idea of you guys gathering in a b dratty house in twenty thirty seven and putting on your VR headsets too.
I this is these are all things that like need to be Like. My question is like, you know what we where do we strip away a lot of it? And I think the USGA so there they are booked out, but they have like the best venue booked out.
Yes.
Now, if I was on the other side, I would be thinking like, hey, let's see where this technology thing goes, because we might have the ability to do something small or like a small on site footprint, but then deliver a really premium VR product or something along those lines. If technology gets to where you might think it could in ten.
Years, would you get a point?
Yeah, I don't think the PGA is getting into Cypress.
Yeah.
I think that's the USGAUSGA only site.
I don't think the club is. Was looking at the Ryder Cup, this last Ryder Cup and thinking, oh, we definitely want that to happen at our club. Uh, yeah, I think that does open up some interesting possibilities. I think it's notable that the Masters has not gone all in on making its event the biggest event, right They've they've intentionally kept it at a manageable size, and they've expanded their digital footprint massively over the past ten years
or so. And so that's that's how the Masters is moving, and it'll be interesting to see if other major championships move in that direction as well.
Yeah, I it's it's fascinating. Like of these venues, I would say that, like Congressional is the one that I'm most interested in. I agree with that, Yeah, And unfortunately that's twelve years away.
Well, I mean, listen, there's only a US Ryder Cup every four years, and that's that's part of the unique dynamic here. We haven't really talked about the European side of this yet. Obviously, the PGA of America is wanting to go to prestigious traditional venues with its championships. Congressional is that, the Olympic Club is that, and and the PGA Championship is starting to go to classic venues as well.
It's not going to PGA National anymore, right, And so that has been the direction that the PGA of America has moved in the European tour with the Ryder Cup. I mean, they're basically going to modern courses that they've been able in some way or another to purpose build for the Ryder Cup. Their in house design firm, European Golf Design, made major changes at Marco Simone before the twenty twenty three Ryder Cup, major changes at the Golf
Nacional before twenty eighteen. They're probably going to make some big changes at Cameron or whatever this place is called in Spain. And indeed the Cameral that the whole development was a European tour idea that had its roots back in the late eighties. It was the European chairman and co chairman who designed the course along with the European Tours consulting architect. So this has been a European tour spot that just for some reason or another, they haven't
utilized much for championships. But it looks like they're reinvesting in that. A dere manner is sort of the outlier here, but I guess just the fact that J. P. McManus is the owner of it is the explanation that the Writer Cup is there. Otherwise, it seems like the European tour strategy is we are going to basically build our own Rider Cup venues to an extent, or we're going to take existing facilities and retrofit them for this purpose. And I like that idea. I don't like the execution.
I don't think the architecture is good, and I think that's a big miss. But it would be interesting if the PGA of America or whoever is running the Writer Cup in a few years. Who knows, maybe the PGA Tour is going to have more influence in it eventually. It would be interesting if the American Ryder Cup were taken to some venues that we're in some way or
another purpose built for the Ryder Cup. I would love to see some you know, talented architect try to build a stadium course in this day and age that hasn't been done for a while, and I think some really interesting things could be created with that brief. Build me
a stadium course. Be like Dean Beaman in the late nineteen seventies just plucking Pete dye out of semi obscurity because Beaman thought that die was an interesting architect and saying, hey, just take this ball and run with it, build me a stadium course for a great championship. And somehow we've lost that vision. Obviously, it's very expensive to build these courses. You don't know that. The business is tough.
I would say the organization running the American side just wants to take all the money and put it back in his pocket.
That's right. So, and that's the issue is that they do not have of the vision for this kind of thing, but possibilities arealyzing if they did. Wait, that's not what he's thinking about right now.
I get I couldn't agree with more with you, and I think that should be a huge focus of professional golf over the next ten to fifteen years. But isn't that what pg Frisco is supposed to represent.
That's yeah, and I was going to get to that. It seems like they fumbled that opportunity. I don't know what happened with Gil Hans's course at PGA Frisco. It seems like a good golf course. It seems like maybe he was told just to go out and build a good golf course, and there are some interesting strategic concepts and you know, it's the turf is firm and fast. I think I would enjoy playing PGA Frisco sort of. But why didn't they ask him to build a stadium
golf course. Why wasn't that course optimized for galleries? Why does it seem to be a bad course to host championships at?
Why do you have to little scuttle butt? Okay, so there was when they were building that golf course. It was during COVID, Yeah, and the PGA they had There was apparently multiple attempts to get the PGA down to consult on where they would want grand stands, and nobody showed up. What So everybody was pointing the finger at whether it was Gil or Omni about the setup, you know, issues with grand stands and how they had to rejigger
the routing for flow. But you know, they were building this in partnership with the PGA, and nobody on the PGA side of the coin came down to help advise them or you know, lend assistance in how that could be laid out.
So there was no vision. That's and the vision is what made TPC Sawgrass what it was because Dean Beeman had an idea for a stadium golf course, and he theorized it to the point where he was saying, I want gathering points, I want holes converging so that people can watch action on multiple holes. At one time he was saying, I want high points around the holes so that spectators are looking down at players. He had an idea of what this course would be, and that's part
of what made it really remarkable. And so it sounds like there was no similar impetus behind the PGA, at least the gil Hants course at PGA Frisco. And really they shouldn't have been designing the course and then saying where do we put the grand stands or how do we get spectators around it? It should have been baked into the concept from the beginning.
Yeah, yeah, that's what you would think you would do. I will say one thing, and I'm curious, Joseph. One of the advantages, you know, Garret, you you're not a fan of the architecture that these this firm, the European design firm is is I.
Think I think the bad I think the guys. I think that I've talked to the architects there and they're smart, but it's not.
I will say, one of the things about the golf courses that they're choosing is they are unique and different. They are you could call them quirky. You know, anybody that's watched any bit of golf Golf Nationale knows this. And I think one of the other aspects of these these builds that they're doing is they are different golf
courses than American PGA Tour style golf courses. And then it almost lends itself right into the European's hands in the sense that they have really created a way to set up their team and build their team with advantages in how they relate to the golf course, particularly on their home soil. Would you agree with that, Joseph, I.
Agree with it. I think it underscores that there probably should be a neutral party setting up the golf course. And Eduardo Molinari, who's, you know, the brainchild of a lot of what happens on the European side, set on our podcast a year ago that he would be in favor of that that he thinks a neutral setup would probably be beneficial because of the advantages we've seen on
each side. So yeah, Andy, you could tell me, you could convince me that if you're going to build a golf course from scratch, you'd make it as quirky, strategic, funky as possible and then get your side really dialed on the course management and just turn it all the way up, like have blind shots that your team's prepared for. Maybe you'd mow the rough and really bizarre ways, knowing that the left side is fine here the right you
could do crazy stuff to the golf course. But that I do think that we've we've come too far on letting the home team set things up and it should kind of go to a more neutral setup.
In a way. They did this at La Golf National.
You know, if you look at the Golf National and you replay that Ryder Cup, Europe had so many more accurate players on a golf course that demanded accuracy, and the United States rolled in with a completely out of form and wild Phil Mickelson, Bryson De'shamba Bubba Watson, Tiger, who was like who knows what was going on that way Cup, Like you think about it, and it was like this perfect storm for a blowout because it was one team fit the golf course extraordinarily well, and all
had experience on it the other team. You know, it was wildly different than anything you see in America. The other team rolls in after the Tour championship, you know, flind and you know they play this golf course that doesn't fit any of their games.
You know.
Well, you know, the funny thing is that these courses that the European Tour has a lot of control over, the the Golf Nacional Cameron what was the other one, Marcus Simone. They are kind of like knockoff versions of tPCS, yes, right, but they are peculiar golf courses. They're they're a little bit weird, and so they might require some degree of familiarity, you know, Marcus Simone has has a lot of quirk to it, maybe not really good quirk, but it's it
helps to have seen the course before. And this is all sort of part and parcel of Team Europe's approach where they actually have control of these venues from the ground up, from the design side. They are involved with the details of these golf courses, whereas the PGA of America is basically outsourcing all of that, kind of like they've outsourced their data operation to Scouts consulting instead of
integrating it into the team they have gone to. The PGA of America has gone to courses that operate their own golf courses and have their own ideas about what their golf courses should be in a good way, right. I'm glad that the Olympic Club has control over what it's doing with its architecture and that the PGA of America doesn't have say in that. But there's a reason that Team Europe is approaching venue selection in the way
it does. It's going to golf courses where it's really involved already.
I think one thing, Garrett, you're going through that explanation talking about some of those European work courses, there's illuminating for me, not just being at the Golf National, but also walking beth Page. Elevation change is essential to a Ryder Cup venue. From the perspective of spectating it is enormous, and from the perspective of Europe. Like at the Golf National, it also created a significant penalty for being offline because
you weren't just in thick ruff. You were standing with the ball way above or below your feet, with those moguls on each side of the golf course, which I know was an emphasis of Europe. I don't know that how much driving accuracy is tested is something that we should be thinking about for future venue selection, especially since
these teams are a little bit more homogenized now. But I do think from the standpoint of venue selection, elevation change should be a massive consideration in the way that it informs viewers and spectating different vantage points throughout the golf course where you can set up hospitality and not to go right back and beat a dead horse, but I mean PJ Frisco is like the flattest piece of property that you're going to find, and I do think
that should be a much bigger can iteration. Then clearly the PGA is prioritizing.
Not yet on the list of future venues, not yet, but it's it's coming. I think it's probably coming, all right.
Yeah, I'm gonna make you guys, each of the czar. The golfs are the greatest role, greatest figurative role there is in the world. You can wave your wand and and and change where the next Ryder Cups are contested, the next two Ryder Cups are contested. I'm assuming that we're not sticking with Hazeltine in its current form, and I you know, I think at Dare Banner will be a wonderful, wonderful week. I'm sure all the players will
be quite happy with their accommodations. But you're you're getting kind of like an Inland Parkland uh Fasio golf course, which I hears is great, wonderful place to be, but like probably not the most you know, fascinating, enthralling strategy golf course. If you could wave your wand the next two so you get a US and A at a broad venue? What two are you picking? No concerns for anything, no.
Concerns for anything, like I kind of factor factored concerns in. Well you could yeah a little fine.
But at least your concerns keep your concerns in. But you get you get any any two? What are you doing?
So for a European venue, would love to see Walton Heath. I think that would be cool. It probably wouldn't be able to accommodate a full scale Rider Cup, but it is a thirty six hole facility, so at least it does have that going for it. It's hosted sizeable championships before. It doesn't have much elevation change actually to Joseph's previous point, but what it does.
Happen hosted the eighty one Ryder Cup also.
Yeah, exactly, it's got a little bit of tradition.
Did did you do?
You know what the the host of the very first Ryder Cup was back in nineteen twenty.
Seven, Glenn Eagles Country Club, Worcester.
A right which has recently undergone. What I've heard, I've heard is a very very good renovation by Gil Hans. I've heard that's a terrific golf course. But don't think that that's in the in the car.
Some people will look that up and think it's Worcester, but it's Worcester.
It's Worcester. Yes, yeah, it does look like Worcester, but that is not how you pronounce it. Yeah, Walton Heath, I'd love to see. I think that's such a cool golf course and it does interesting things to modern pros games. It would be tough to hold any kind of stroke play major championship there, but for a Ryder Cup it would be fascinating. And it's so so bouncy, you know, like it's that's just that that course is as a trampoline and so I would have a lot of fun
with that. For an American Ryder Cup, I mean a few different options. At Chambers Bay is sort of the cliched one. Of course, I would love to see it at Chambers Bay. They're not going to go there. It's just too hard to get in and out of the course, and the spectator experience seems to be occasionally treacherous. But for a Ryder Cup, people more stay in place, I guess, so it might be well suited to that. Crooked Stick
is another one that that I'd love to see. And Joseph has just perked up at that because this is, uh, this is close to his heart. But those are those are two names that come to mind for me. Ryder Cup venues that that I think would actually be interesting to watch.
All right, Joseph, what are yours? Yeah?
I think on crookeetsick on. One issue they've had is the driving range was never big enough to have a full field, so you know, there you go, you only have twenty four golfers. They think they still need to extend it a little bit or put up a higher net, but at least you have that problem solved.
I think they can. I think they can warm up at a a at a screen you know by.
The time who knows? Yeah, yeah, all track man ranges, right.
I think the legit answer here is that they need to build something new because this exercise is always so difficult to find something that's practical and would be exciting. You guys are going to hate this one. But if we're doing one that's four years from now, while Jack Nicholas is still live, you could do worse than Mierfield Village. And I don't like picking a course that's a PGA Tour course.
You just love that course field so much.
I love that golf course. It's TPC San Antonio, Mirfield Village. I mean those are you just have those posters on your wall and you go to sleep.
Honestly, we I think next year we have to send send Joseph to you this Mirfield Village love letter.
Yeah, it'll write a moving, a poignant newsletter piece after it.
Well, what other golf courses are we even talking about? Like to go through something that can actually host an event and be a good test of golf and potentially have the fan infrastructure. Like the list is so small, but I think it would be cool while Jack Nicholas is still live to have an event there, and it would be a golf course that legitimately has shot value. So I'll throw that out there. In terms of one in Europe, I'm scratching my head trying to think of
anything that would work. This is another USGA venue, so I don't think they would ever go there. But if you want to max out the quirkiness, what about Lahinch? That would be fun, be fun, probably get their their box office numbers that they're looking for.
They wanted to be within an hour of a major city, right, yeah, that's kind of then that looks to be the logic. You know, Barcelona is pretty close to cameral dere Manner is the one that's it's like two hours from Dublin, but it's still listen. I mean, no, no place in Ireland is I guess not far from uh any other place in the end. So they're they're looking to kind of be generally in urban areas.
Oh yeah, these are not realistic. I don't think that they're going to Lahinch anytime soon. If you want to the soft star, yeah, if you want to see a course where part doesn't matter and you've got funky stuff that's upsetting pros throw some of those blind shots at them.
Yeah, well, i'd really like to. I mean a realistic place, a place that might actually get a Ryder Cup sometime in the near future because it's in the PGA of America. Roda is Baltis Roll. I think that would be a very good Ryder Cup host. Would it be the most scintillating possible host. Would it be as fun as the Hinch? Absolutely not. But it's a good golf course where good
renovation work has been done. Cool greens, right, actually interesting greens, and you can set that place up to be very entertaining. And it's a thirty six hole facility, so you'd have the room. The driving range situation is a little bit touch and go, but I think they have a plan there.
So the other course into the driving range.
Yeah, exactly, they can. They can just have them t off from wherever.
I know you said that this one is. It doesn't have the infrastructure. I think Kioa would be a cool one to have a run. You could. Yeah, you could never do a lot of the stuff that they want to do. But if you want to dial one back a little bit and make it hard to access, I think you could do a lot worse. Than Kia.
What.
Yeah, I guess I'm surprised, you know, like they touched the thousand dollars ticket thing. I mean, honestly, it's an awful spectator experience. It's horrendous. I like actively advise people.
Not to go to the oh, the Ryder Cup in general, Yeah, terrible. Well you don't see any golf shots, right, There's just not that many golf shots being played.
And so what if they just went like the secondary market crazy markup and reduce the tickets by you know, they already are outpricing people with their current setup. Why not just go extreme? I have super expensive tickets and like way less fans.
This would be your fantasy, right, Andy, Well.
I'm not trying to be an elitist or anything.
Why I would act like I no golf tournaments?
Right?
I went to a a Ryder Cup when I was twenty six years old, and I was so mad at the amount of money I wasted, and at that time it was way cheaper than yeah, yeah, and it was I was so upset leaving Me and my buddy were We just talked the whole way home about haul how awful of a spectating experience. It was so like at that point, like you're delivering something that costs an insane amount of money. That's bad, that's not a good business.
So why not dial it back, go like ultra lux, you know, save people from spending a lot of substantial amount of their money on something that's not good, because that's the worst thing you can do to be completely honest as a as a business. But anyway, I got a couple of venues. That's just a whole another thought that could lead to twenty minutes discussion. What about the old course?
I mean, are we waving a wand about logistical considerations?
They host an open which is like insanely big.
Every five years. I mean I kind of avoided road of venues in my own imaginings.
Is there a better matchplay course in the world.
Oh, of course not. And and a lot of a lot of the problems that people have right now with the old course is the idea of par yes right, and the stroke play score. And so it'll be fun to be liberated from that for a week at the old course. I mean obviously, like that would be that would be fantastic. I'd love it.
Has it? God?
Has the Ryder Cup ever been at the old course.
I don't think it has.
I don't think it has.
Yeah, it's been at some other places. It's just an amazing dale. It's been.
Yeah, it's been. They went to consistently went to ROATA courses before the nineteen eight when they just started going to the Belfry over and over and over again, like you went from literally Walton Heath and I think eighty one and then it was the Belfry in eighty three and ever since then, the European venues have just been you know, but yeah, I would love the Ryder Cup of the old course would be sensational.
And then American venue brand new just opened for preview play on the day of this recording yesterday, Rodeo Dunes.
Rodeo Dunes.
It's an hour from Denver, forty five minutes from the airport, tons of space for logistics in terms of grand stands, everything, and a golf course, like if you're hosting a tour event, you might worry about scored apart. For a Ryder Cup, don't worry about score apart. They just bastardized one of the great championship courses in America with with low scores, So why not go somewhere where you don't have to
do anything. It's firm and fast with bounty, and it's a great time of year to be in that look location.
Do you think it would be done a disservice on TV? Rodeo Dens Current TV. You mean likes going like they wouldn't know, but I mean just in general on TV. It's one of those courses that that I think in person I'm thinking of, you know, if you held a Ryder Cup at sand Hills or something like that, it's obviously such a gorgeous place. If you photographic correctly, then it comes across really well. When you're in person, it's it just bowls you over. I don't know if sand Hills would translate on TV.
I think it would. I think I'm like fairly convinced that it would do well. Like that golf course has a lot of big features. It's more of like a I would say, like Rodeo has like Irish Links features where you have those big dunes, a dramatic, very dramatic vistas and and like you know, towering dunes that you play up like you get that elevation change and those spectating areas that Joseph was talking about, so that would
be those would be by two. I also I had Chambers Bay on my list, but you mentioned it, so Chambers May it's it's so good. Yeah, it's you know, the PGA head to the sand for not trying to do it because you'd get like the Ryder Cup. I
know this would be awful for European viewers. Disclaimer for the European audience, I know how awful it would be for you, But for the American TV audience, like, could you imagine a Ryder Cup coming down on Onday night You're watching on the East Coast Ryder Cup at nine pm?
Be incredible?
Yeah, and there are any West Coast options really right now, A.
Lot more at Chambers It would be a lot more interesting than than Olympic, you know.
Yeah, And I think what I love about Rodeo Dunes, I'm all in on that. And I think the story that would come out is the Europeans practicing at altitude before the Ryder Cup and the Americans not practicing at altitude one time, Europeans winning and that it would be the whole like that's exactly what would happen.
I'm so in on that.
Would the Europeans like get a hotel and aspen and go and runs together as a team. Yeah, absolute training.
My favorite is this rumor that the that the US didn't practice enough at Bethpage, where there was literally a golf course you did not have to think around, no and practically practically, like you know, things get the knives come out and people are looking to blame everything. But like the idea that somebody didn't practice enough at beth Pages preposterous because there was literally no thinking to be done. It was take out the drivers. It hit it as hard as you can.
The reason the Europeans made all those putts is that they knew all that, all the breaks and the nuances of the Bethpage black greens.
So anyways, this was a great chat. Thank you guys for coming. On Joseph's work. You could read a lot in the newsletter as well as on these pods that he is a guest. Garrit's work you can find in our membership Friday Golf Club. His writing on golf courses golf Courses is featured there weekly as well as his bi weekly Designing Golf podcast that everybody should go check out. Thank you guys for coming on and talking about things that we would hope that to change that will probably never change.
Thanks Anna.
All right, before we get to Brandon, let's talk about our friends over at golf Genius. If you've been to a Fridagg event, you know that we partner with golf Genius. They help us manage all of our Fridagg events, these one hundred plus people gatherings, the tournaments we also have smaller ones. They are a system that saves our staff hours of prep work and also helps deliver a great
experience for players. Not only does that do that for us, but it does it with thousands of clubs across the world. They are in more than sixty countries and over eleven thousand clubs, resorts, and public and golf courses across the world. So they also work with state golf associations and help them run their events. Golf Genius is the industry leading platform for managing golf events and tournaments. And if you're
interested and learn more about their software. If you're looking for you know, if you if you run events, or if you're a part of a pro shop, go to golf genius dot com. All right, big thanks to golf Genius. Let's get back to Brandon Holtz and talk to the US Midham champ. All right, Brandon, congrats on the Midham win. Pretty incredible to do it in your first USGA event. I got to ask, I think the thing part of your story that I'm most interested in is you played
college basketball. He played at Illinois State, Right, Who's the best hooper that you played against, that you played against at any level of basketball? And you know over the years, you.
Know, honestly, Sean Livingston out of Peoria, you know, had a heck of a career win in the NBA. I'm telling you, if that guy didn't completely tear up his knee, I think top fifty all time.
He was a blast to watch. He was a blast to play with.
Fortunately enough for us, we were uh and this, and you're an Illinois guys, so you'd remember some of these names. But Andre Igi Dalas, Shawn Livingston, Richard McBride, Brian Randall. They would come down. Their AA team would play our AAU team just about once a week over the summer, So we got to play with those guys quite a bit,
and it was there. They were special and Sean was just on a different levels as we all know, right, but definitely him, and then real quick at iu Osyrus Eldridge, that guy when he would jump, you could feel the force in the floor if you were next team. And unfortunately for me, I had the privilege or not so much, the privilege to guard him every day in practice and talk about a humbling experience to get your butt kicked every day in practice.
So it was cool. I played with a lot of good players and had a lot of fun.
I was I lived at the Bay and I was talking to somebody that's like a little younger, uh than than me, late thirties. I'm in the late thirties, that someone in their like twenties, and we were talking about the Warriors, and Sean Livingston came up, and I vividly remember watching Sean Livingston when you know how this state tournament was televised, and I remember watching him in the state tournament and I was like, holy like that it was like just like mass destruction of high school teams.
Different.
And I said to this guy, I was like, before the d injury or the leg injury, that guy was unbelievable and it's it's it's it. He was, uh, yeah, it was actually a rental car center that I said this to somebody. I remember there was the guy because
he was at the rental car center. But uh, but yeah, Sean Livingston, it's as a as a basketball player, I you know, there there's this trended youth sports about like specialization where where like you know, it's like effectively like at age ten, these kids have to figure out what sports they played. Right for you, what do you think about your basketball career has helped you as a golfer?
You know.
A lot of different ways.
The competitiveness, the drive, I'd say, like golf is, golf is hard, like to practice everyday golf, right, I mean there's no defense, there's no plays, there's no like you know, I can't I can't talk trash to a guy that's guarded me. Right, there's there's just not a It's just you and the golf ball and the green in the in the hole.
And so playing.
Basketball those years you learn and you and you just I guess develop a work ethic and and it and to transition it to golf.
You know, even a quick hour out on the golf course is better than no hour, right.
So for me, you know, having a job, having two kids. You know, having a life outside of of just a game of golf. Running to that range for thirty minutes hitting a few balls is super important and that's all, you know, stems into the work ethic, and.
I guess just the.
The structure of your day, you know, being able to be accountable to yourself to to go play when.
You when you have a little bit of time.
I've said this numerous times of the podcast, but it's it's funny. I think, like the the specialization is I think golf at other sports help golf. And I always use this example as I you know, maybe maybe the best summer I had in my amateur career post college was playing. Yeah, I played basketball all winter, played like probably three three four times a week my gym in the city, and I didn't play basically I played no golf.
I didn't really practice. But I came back and what I had gained was explosiveness, right Like my legs were were just twitchier and that basketball I'll never forget. I came back and I was hitting the ball ten fifteen yards further and it was all because of just the you know, the quick twitch nature of basketball. And it's like you think about some golf exercises like box jumps are great for golf, you know, and it's like that's
effectively basketball. It's something I find silly about about you know, kids, and it's like you look at Scottie Shuffler, he played sport all different sports growing up. You know, he played a lot of basketball. It's like there are sports, particularly basketball I think that relate really well to golf because of as you said with the ISU player I forgot his name, Ri, But the ground force, Yeah, the ground force is effectively how you generate power from what I gather you move the ball.
Yeah, it's actually now you say that it's funny when I hit balls on the range. I can't say in the same spot very long because obviously we all takedivots. But you should see like my foot pattern. I mean, I am dug into that ground. And I'm a bigger guy as it is, but I'm dug into that ground. And you kind of look at it if you're at like a sand based range and you're like, oh shit, you know, like I got to move my foot is
in the ground over here. So yeah, and then along with the same lines as all these different sports are using different kinds of muscles. That's why I feel like a lot of these kids are getting hurt because you know, they only play basketball, they only play football, they only play golf, and over a time, you just wear those muscles out. When if you're playing all the sports all year round, you're using all, you know, your whole body instead of just those select muscles.
For that sport.
You know, Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And it trains different things, and you don't you don't know what what's going to help you the most, Like some something on the basketball court could click for your golf game, just the way you move or something something you think about.
It's a you know, golf is such a kind of mercurial game in the sense of like you have to be cerebral and the way you think about stuff is is it just like so important with with the week at at Troon, I read some stuff that you know, obviously your long player desert golf is is is known of being very penal, but I read that you were
you played quite aggressive throughout the week. What was kind of the mentality around the week and your strategy going into a desert golf course and that you know, effectively you miss fair way, you're kind of in a questionable spot.
You know that the driver again, the driver got me there, right. The driver is the strongest club in my bag. I hit it every chance I can and don't even think about it. You know, if you start thinking in golf, you start failing in golf, right, So turn the brain off, trust your shot, and go with it.
As far as the desert's concerned.
Yet so so true country Club was for me, I think, just perfectly set up, just because I'm not scared to hit the driver. And I'm not saying those guys weren't scared too or I'm not saying they were scared to hit the driver. But you know, matching match out these guys are pulling off irons and hybrids and three woods and I'm I'm hitting driver, and I'm like, you know,
one of the guys out there said it perfectly. You know a lot of these guys are out here playing the golf course how it's supposed to be played, and I was just out there trying to make birdies. And you know, in match play, you know, I'm not a rocket science by any means, but isn't that isn't that what you're supposed to do, you know, make as many birdies as you can.
I think that's you know, it's a great point because stroke play ward words that like you're building like a foundation. If you think about I think this is this is what Jeff Shat, Jeff Ogilvy said to me once about a stroke play Tournament's like building a house. You lay the foundation in ground one in round one, and you're just you're just trying not to screw up effectively, and you're trying to like build a soundhouse and not make many mistakes, and that's going to keep you on time.
You know, the house analogy kind of works well, but when you get into match play, it it is so much about getting bit creating unique advantages on holes and putting applying pressure to your opponent. It's much more I mean, it's much more like other sports where where you're squaring off.
Like I think it works really well with like a tennis analogy where you know, if you know, you watch tennis and they go for big first serves and obviously there's a there's a repercussion if you miss it, then then you're you're playing the second serve and the returner as advantage with golf you know, if you can get the if you can keep the driver in play. I mean, and somebody's hanging iron all of a sudden, You've just put a ton of pressure on their you know, mid iron player into green, right.
And I mean my thought the whole week is if I'm hitting second in the fairway, you know, I choose to basically what I want to do each hole right, so to keep you know, to keep the basketball analogy of some sort in the golf.
You know, me going second was my defense, right, and again, like a little bit part of the gamemanship.
They'd be back there one hundred and sixty to two hundred yards away, and I'm up there, you know, eighty to one hundred and twenty yards away. I'm not in their way, but I've made sure they saw me up there, right, And that's just that's that's just the fun. Like, that's that's how I keep going. That's how I keep golf you know, active in my mind. How I keep going, how I I mean, that's how I play with all
my buddies at home. I Mean, what a lot of people don't understand realize is the group of guys that I play with twelve to fifteen guys. They are all scratch at least scratch, if not a little better, maybe a little worse. But these guys can. They're damn good players, you know. And to be able to play with those guys, you know, two times a week, three times a week, I'm not saying, you know, my guys could go out there and you know, compete at the US mid N level,
but I wouldn't bet against them, you know. I mean, they can play, so that helps me throughout the year. But I'm playing against these guys and I'm pushing them, They're pushing me. So it's it's just fun. And I learned all those things from those guys because we like to, you know, talk a little trash back and forth and keep it somewhat fun. Definitely don't need a camera following us, but we have some fun out there.
I've got another podcast and I said that we were talking about the I said, I said something along the lines of like, you'd be surprised at how many good golfers there are in the Bloomington area. And it's like, you know, anybody that played Illinois amateur golf is a
Bloomington is kind of like a hotbed for golf. It's I imagine, you know, there are a lot of games at the various clubs, but you know, it's uh I to me, to me, the best thing to get your game in a better place is playing with good players regularly. You know. It's like I think back to when I
was a member at a club. We had I don't know, probably about twenty five guys that were two handicaps or three handicaps or less, and we had like basically a bi weekly scratch game and everybody brings some cash and we would play, you know, play all straight up, and there's like you know, low, low, gross and skinned and and it was like I think, like from from my perspective, like everybody there took their game at a different level because of just the constant competition level. And I think
that's like something that is hard with golf. It's hard to find groups like that, right right.
And on top of that, you know, a lot of the guys I play with, we all work for ourselves, you know, we have our own businesses or you know, in my case, I'm in real estate, so I can kind of you know, change my schedule as needed to you know, hey, let's we got afternoon tea time.
Let's make it happen. Okay, let's go. So yeah, that definitely helps.
This was your first USGA. Evet how many how many tries had you had at various events? And I think you should. I saw you shot sixty three to get through the qualifier. Tell us a little bit about getting there.
Yeah, So to clear all the stories, I've been reading social media and there's a lot of stories out there, and I'm.
Like, where did they even find all this stuff?
Because about ninety percent of it isn't true, right, But just a quick rundown. I played full time from about ten thousand, twenty ten to two thousand and four teen fifteen maybe, and then I kept my pro cards and I didn't play at any big events like as a mini tour.
Events as Illinois Opened.
Illinois Open is literally the only tournament I played in, you know, from fifteen to like twenty and had had some success there.
That's why I kept it.
But then after that, you know, having kids, just didn't practice enough, didn't play enough, and keeping my pro card made no sense. You know, I played one event a year. I get jacked up for that one event, and I just have to play good that week and if I don't, I lose what I was trying to do all year, you know. So my buddies finally convinced me to get
my amateur status back. I applied in twenty three the end of twenty three maybe, and got it back last year, and they, you know, they backdated all and I mean it's I did exactly what they were supposed to know, what the USGA wanted me to do, and we were good to go. And then the this was my first like legit usc it was the size of four ball. I played in the four ball, but we didn't do
very good, so moving on. But then the the US made it and qualifiers at Cresler Country Club where I'm a member, and I'm like, this is this is just set up perfect, you know. So I go out there, played pretty well, shoot sixty three, get out and then you know I would I wouldn't say that I didn't think I could do this. I mean, if I didn't think I could do it, I wouldn't play it, you know.
But it was it was, it was, it was fun. It was a good week. I was glad to play well while I was out there.
Because I mean, it's it's amateur golf, right, we don't. We're not playing every day. We're not practicing every day, and you.
Just got to play. You got to play good at you know, at the right opportunity and the right time. And that's what happened. And here we are today, right.
It's I played in twenty sixteen and I was kind of cruising in the stroke play and then I started thinking about match play on my back nine of second round. And that's when, you know, anybody that played any any level of golf knows that's when implosions happened. And sure enough it happened. But you know, like that's the thing about that midam is is you if you play well in that in that stroke play portion and you get
into match play, it it's you. Everybody in that match play feels like they have a chance because it becomes I gotta be one guy for you know, six days or six rounds in a row, which is not a crazy proposition, you know, in terms of in terms of the stroke play and getting kind of ready, uh in in there, what did your did your strategy shift it all from stroke play to match play?
Yes, So.
For stroke play, I mean the whole goal is kind of stay out of your own way, stay away from the big numbers, which I didn't unfortunately, but I was able to to kind of recoup and find some birdies out there. But the good I mean again True Country Club, I felt like said perfect perfectly up for me, and I hit in the stroke play.
I hit driver at True Country Club all you know, the whole round too.
True North was kind of more of a blessing in disguise because it totally took.
The driver out of my back, so it kept me safe.
But I think the first two rounds, I think True True Country Club I played first. I think I hit seventeen greens, had a four putt, you know, putt it off the green on number three, so I started off number three my third hole of the whole week, have a four putt for seven, So that was that was a real fun, you know start. And then True North
I hit it. I hit it in the desert on number ten and hit a provision and didn't even look for it, just because I knew it was just just what we weren't going to find it and then ended up taking.
A seven there.
But it just kept battling stay out of your own way once I hit the Once I had the big numbers, I'm like, okay, well you just gotta you gotta buck up and make some stuff happen. But once I had, once I finished the first round at even parr, I'm like, you know what, just get it in the house, keep it around.
Par and let's get on the match play. And that's that's exactly what I did. So I was happy.
And then yeah, when I hit the match play, let's let's go grab as many birdies as you can.
Was there was there a particular match or moment where you know, it felt like something was going the wrong way, and and there was a moment that really flipped a flipped my match on his head.
Yeah, the I think it was a quarter of my it'd have been my second match.
Maybe that Justin Huber, who I've you know, I don't I didn't personally know him, but I've.
Seen his name around and I knew he was a good player.
Obviously looked up everyone I played against and knew I had I had to bring my stuff.
In that particular match.
I just I just was not hitting the ball good, battling the swing a little bit, and honestly, mentally, I was just I was tired. I was beat you know, but then I think I was like three down through thirteen and just you know, had that long get your butt up and start doing something talk and just caught fire. And I think from like fourteen to so fourteen, I think I burdied fourteen through eighteen. Then I birdied the nineteenth holl to beat him, and then I birdied the
first four holes of the next match. So I just I mean I had like seven or seven, eight or nine birdies in a row, and just from from there, you know that that just that little bit of confidence, you know, I told my dad and I'm like, Dad, work on, We're going to make a run of this, just because you always got to. You always got to get past that match where you just don't play the best that you can. And for me, I think that that was that match that was a turning.
Point for us. Uh, you had your dad on the bag. I'm sure your dad has had a lot of sports experiences with you through your life. What was that experience like being able to get the get the whole thing done with with your dad on the back.
It was fun. You know, we've we've played a lot of golf together. He knows my game just as good as anybody else. And he's I mean, he's just a he's a comforting presence, right uh. And he's just he's just a big bear, right if he got his long hair, big solid, strong dude. And it's just it's more of, you know, some reassurance, some confirmation. He's not out there telling me what to do, where to hit it, how to hit it. He's just there for the conversation and
the reassurance is off. And when it was all said and done, it was that My wife said the best one because honestly, I don't remember the last t ball. I don't remember hitting it, and I don't remember making that last putt.
I think I just blacked out in the moment, right, But she.
Said when I made the putt, and I went and hugged my dad because my dad he's a big fellow too, and she's like, man, I wouldn't I would not want to be in the middle of that hug.
I bet that things tight.
But that, yeah, we that was that was just I think we finally because for the longest time, you know, I tried the professional route. He was supporting me through that, and then we just figured out that that just wasn't the way to go. So I stopped, and then I started talking about playing, you know, back some competitive uh you know, amateur stuff, and he's like, yeah, go for it, and then it all we all just finally were able to just let it go once once we got the job done out there.
So super fun to have him on the bag. I can't wait.
And then, honestly, in some of the reports, I said that he won the Masters badges in twenty ten, and I don't.
I don't.
I don't even know what I was saying on half of those deals. But he actually won the badges in two thousand and four. So we have been going out to the Masters. He gets two badges per day for the week or for the for the tournament rounds, and he gets them for his life. So he's been going out there for twenty years. He usually takes day. I take a day, my brother takes a day, and then his sister, my dad's sister, my aunt and uncle they take a day, and we kind of rotate.
It, you know, every year. But we understand how special.
It is out there and how different it is out there, and some of the conversation is, you know, we had on our on our way home, We're like, Dad, you.
Know all those.
Ropes that we can't go behind, and all those buildings that we keep asking ourselves, Oh, I wonder what's in there?
I wonder what's back there.
We're gonna be able to find out what all that is now, so it makes it even more special just because of, you know, the experience we've already had out there, so we're excited.
I think it's it's tradition that the mid Am gets the invitation to the to the Masters. It's also you get into the US Open next year, which is at Shitakak Hills. That's a pretty pretty great golf course. I would just finished a week where I was out there last week. It's uh, you know what I would consider the very best golf courses in the world.
And the Hampton's in the in the middle of summer, it's going to be real cheap to be out there, right my.
My one piece of advice having covered a US Open there is if you can stay stay east of the golf course. You don't want to be in the in the west or the west to east traffic, because if you get on the other side, then you're going it's even if you're thirty minutes, it's gonna be thirty minutes. If you're going the other way, you could be ten minutes away and take an hour. Sure, But the with the masters, that's incredible that you've been going for effectively
twenty one years of your life. What are you know?
What are you?
I would say, what's your ben your where's your favorite spot to sit as a patron? And you know you talked about like wondering what's behind the ropes assuming you get the chance to play where?
What?
What are you? What shot are you most excited ahead.
The I mean, i'd like to say number one, but that's going to be I'm gonna have to tell the patrons to move that.
I think if you blacked out on at the very probably if on one, Yeah right, just telling move that left a little further left because I'm like a pole cut kind of guy, and that sucker might be coming low left real quick at you.
I'm just praying for a little heel, a little heel modern technology ball.
No, So personally my favorite spot to sit, I really like sitting at number two on a day where they can go for the green just because yeah, behind the green I want to sit so.
You can watch the ball come in.
It's it is fantastic. And then I've always had a lot of fun on number six T. It's a kind of a downhill par three and the winds always circling, and no one's ever up there.
So you go up there, and I swear to you you have the most caddy player interaction up.
There on six T that you'll find anywhere, because one nobody's up there and you are literally like right next to these guys, you know. So those two spots are gold and number nine. I like watching them because again, no one's ever at the ninety and they all hit driver, so you get to see, you know, really take off how you know, what it looks like, how far they hit it.
And so those three spots are definitely where I'm going to go watch if I want to hit that second that second tea. I do not like hitting the ball right to left.
That ain't for me.
So they needed they need to get they need to.
Clearly get a three wood out there.
You can probably turn over yep, exactly exactly.
Yeah, that's that's the thing. You could hit that three wood and and just get it to the bunker. And then you got flat line and you just got playing horse. Yeah, thats right, it is it is you know, I think I think the thing I got to play the media
day or not the media day, the media lottery. And like, to me, the thing about that golf course is it it kind of like it's the golf course that's best of praying on your insecurities as a player, right where like you have like all these memories in nostalgia and you remember like what other people have done out there, but then the margin for error is so small and the shots are so challenging that like it's like, you know,
it's a weird thing with with golf. It's like where you have to be the key the game is so complex, but like the key to the game is is having nothing rolling around your head when you're making the move, you know, right, it's uh uh with uh with those those those tournaments are there. I saw that you you said something along the lines of like, you know, I just want to play with some guys that are that are open to having a little game on the side
and practice rounds. Is there anybody that you've got, you know, particularly you would love to play with.
I mean, again, the list goes.
You know, there's a long list of guys I like to play with, but the one I think the Tony Fena would be great just because I have played with him before and you know, some of the early on mini tour things. So it would be good to like kind of catch up on with him. I'm sure he you know, he remembers me, right. They all remember me, right, So I'm hoping he maybe maybe gets a little a little spin of this and and here's the story, and you know, maybe he does remember me.
I don't mean I'll never forget where you're in Chicago. We played at.
Uh, you know, I just told you I'm never gonna forget. But we played at They just had oh they just had to play. Oh shoot, oh I can't remember.
Darn it.
That's gonna make me mad now. But we had we said my wife sat down and had dinner with Tony and his his family Gipper. He has brother Hippers out there playing.
A great star.
Yeah, oh yeah, big time.
So I don't know if that would be kind of cool. But obviously I would be happy to play with anybody out there.
You know, I just want to have a little fun. I'm not your I obviously play golf, right.
I'm not too bad at it some days, but I'm not like, I don't know really a whole lot about the technicality of the golf swing. You know.
I get up there and I hit it and go find it. The ball doesn't move, hit it, go find it, you know. That was the other thing.
A lot of guys were like, man, he just he takes a rip at it and then he starts walking. I'm like, well, that's the more I think, the worst it's going to get. So just and that's another story.
I don't remember.
It was like our twenty third hole or something and the sapar five and I hit a bad t shot. So we laid up and I'm sitting there. We got a little like fifty yard pitch right up the hill, and my dad and I were talking and we're like pointing out these you know, spots on the green, and my dad starts talking about, you know, this light piece of grass, this dark piece of grass, and.
I'm like, I'm all in with them. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna hit it right there.
And I just cold shanked it. I just shanked the shit out of it, you know. And I'm like I get up there, I mark my ball. I'm like, Dan, what are we doing? We don't This isn't how we play golf. Let's just stop talking, right, We're not talking about this anymore. So, Yeah, I mean, the less you think about it, the easier it's going to be in my opinion. But as far as golfers, Tony would be cool just because I've you know, I've met him personally before.
My wife follows him on I follows his wife on Instagram and she's in love with her or whatever that social media stuff is TikTok Instagram all that. I'm not the best of it, but he'd be fun. And then really just anybody and everybody out there. Obviously, you know your dream to be playing with Tiger and Rory and all those guys, But that I mean, I'm also a realistic guy, like that ain't happening.
You know, maybe if it doesn't be great.
But it was a couple of years ago at the Open at the Old Course, Adrian Mrunk had just like he was. I think he was like one of the first people. He was teen off ten, which is like way the hell out there, and at the time he was this was before he became you know, a like a big time winner on the DP World Tour and then he went to live you know, but he's a relatively unknown golfer and like he's got like I think it was six thirty on the old course. He was teen off or seven and who shows up just shows
up at his tea time. Never met the guy Tiger Woods. Yeah, he plays practice round with Tiger Woods, So you never know, right, Like, I mean, that's kind of the beauty of those practice routes.
Exactly, And that's the the unknowing is kind of you know, even more of the excitement, right I did see that Evan Be won last year in the Midham and he played with Bubba Watson at the Masters last year, so I was like, well, I think I'd be.
All right with that. That'd be kind of fun.
I think that's like one of the coolest about the Masters is the field is so small, like it and it's so elite and like you're either playing yeah, and you're either playing like you're gonna play with some legend of the game from like you know, it's like if you played with Marie Jose Mariolabolod Be probably like it's
like holy shit, like I'm playing with this guy. I watched win Masters and it's like, you know, got one of the best short games ever, right, Like that would be cool in itself, and then you're playing with somebody else. A hot topic of the week is is the you know,
seven of the eight quarterfinalists were reinstated professionals. You yourself are reinstated professional obviously, as you kind of laid out, you played full time from twenty ten to twenty fourteen, and then you were playing about like one two three events a year for the you know, the next almost decade. Sure, what are your thoughts on on the reinstage state of am versus just amateur? Uh, you know, staying amateur debate when it comes to the mid am.
I mean, honestly, what what's the difference? You know, if you follow the rules and you and you are what you are. I mean, every one of those guys out there have full time jobs, have kids. You know, sure that some of them I had, you know, pretty good success on it. But what you're gonna knock a guy because he went and tried something and now he just can't play as much as he'd liked, but he'd still like to be competitive. I mean to me, if you really wanted to shut down the argument, then you then
you change the rules. But the rules are what the rules are, and if you're following them, I mean, what is it matter, you know? And for me to clear the air, I was never on anybody's staff. Nobody ever gave me a golf club. I think eBay. I'm probably one of eBay's best customers because I buy and sell golf clubs. If if I want to try, I buy it and I don't like it, I put it back
on there to try to sell it, you know. Like, So so really, let's let's break down what a what a professional golfer is on the mini tour, right, or let's break down what's what's what's the true definition of an amateur anymore? With this nil stuff, with you know, all that stuff. And I don't want to get into that conversation because you could go for days, right, But I don't have a problem with it. If you follow the rules, you follow the rules, and it's it should
be a shut door, right. I think a lot of these people one obviously it's reading some of the articles that are being written about me, don't know what the hell they're talking about because you know I've played on the corn Fairy one hundred and fifty times, I have half.
A million dollars. Well, that's all false. You know, none of that is true.
I've never played on a corn Fery event, I've tried, never made it. You know, I'm from Indiana, I played basketball at Drake and none of this stuff is true.
So let's let's get the.
Facts right before you know, people start spurting out what's going on. But as far as following the rule, follow rules, and there again should be a shut door.
I think it's a it's a super complex situation, like many hotly debated topics are. I think like I think where I don't. I think it's like anybody that has a problem with anybody in the field, you shouldn't have a problem with anybody personally that followed the rules. As you said, now, like where you could have issue is where you what what the rules are. And I think that's where the discussion should be had. You know, in your case, to me, like turning pro shouldn't be a
death sentence on your your amateur career. The idea of trying something should not be like you're you're done, right, I think that where I would down as someone who like never played professionally, you know, worked from age twenty three and like, you know, played golf sparingly and tried
to compete right over the course of my life. Where I would say, like in a completely different situation is like the way I feel about it is that it should be tiered based off of where you get to right sure, and if you've played ten years or you know, five years on the corn Ferry Tour, or you've made it to the PGA Tour, you know, in that sense, like there has to be a different reinstated station process for that person than somebody that played, you know, five
years of mini tour golf and then has just basically kept there in your situation where you had your your professional status but didn't really play, like and it was working a full time job. Like to me, there's different barriers. But like the idea, I think the idea, the spirit of the event is that these are people that work for a living and do something other than golf for
a living. Now, there's like all sorts of caveats in here, Like people are quick to point like, well, there's a lot of guys that don't have to work that are in this event, and that's true, right, like, but like for for the rules sake, Like to me, there has to be just like a process like in a set number is like okay, Like if you if you play on a credited PGA tour, whether it's you know, Canada, you know, corn Ferry or the PGA Tour, there has to be just like lengths of period of time because
like to me, if you played corn Firy Tour golf three years ago and you played for you know, three years, four years on the corn Fairy Tour, if you take ten years off you you are not anywhere near I'm nowhere near you because you've you've devoted your life to that craft. And I'm never going to have experiences of playing twenty events a year with a four round you know four round like eighty tournament rounds a year like that. There's no way for a working person to simulate that.
There's not even enough mid am events to do that, you know, sure, So I don't know, it's complex. I think that there has to be just a little bit more Like to me, it seems like it's become kind of the wild West where it's just like, oh, you want to get reinstated, here you go, and there has to be some sort.
Of a.
Sliding scale based off of where you got in the game of golf.
Sure, And yeah, I mean I don't necessarily disagree with that.
I mean, I'm not going to speak for those guys who have been on the corn for it, because I haven't been on there, so I you know, for speaking for myself. Honestly, basically, all I did was to become a pro. I just paid the you know, higher entry fee, and I went and played for a check, right, which.
I thought was fun.
But I mean when it's all said and done and you're spending you know, thirty forty fifty dollars a year and you're only getting back about twenty, then you're then you turn around and look at it and like, yeah, you paid for a little.
Bit of that chase of that dream, you know. So yeah, I mean you said it perfect.
It can get complex, but yeah, I mean I I don't necessarily have a problem with it if you follow the rules, and the USGA has come out with you know, hey, these are our rules. That we're fine with it, and you know, if it needs to change, they'll they'll change it. But I mean it's the US miden. I means, all these guys over twenty five, if you're still playing at a high competitive level at you know, my age there, I was the oldest the oldest player in the in
the in the or the finalist. Actually I was the oldest player in the match play. Yeah, I'm thirty eight years old. You're gonna be thirty nine here in a couple of days. But what what besides like the city events, what other competitive.
Tournament do you have?
You know?
I think that's the thing. I've like gone like a lot of different and I've thought about this a lot, you know, And it's like if we're talking about like a basketball league, like a if somebody played like in Europe for ten years and they're thirty five and they're playing on somebody's team, nobody's running and being like this isn't fair. This guy played in Europe, correct, And like I see that side of it where it's like, hey, like one of the great things in golf, like always
play better. I think where golf's like unique is like this the way they prop up amateurism, you know, and this mystique of amateurism in golf, which by the day with nil and everything, as you alluded to, is kind of eroding, and I think, like this is this weird. There's a weird kind of element to golf with this like amateurism and the properness of the amateur game, but like modern society is eroding away at that and that's
one of the tricky things. But it's made this this whole topic way more complex, and so I you know, I think like where I've like been frustrated on on both sides of it. I'm like I'm frustrated with I think the USGAS hasn't done a good job of like laying out and being clear of like this is how we reinstate people and this is like what each people
each like you know, each level. But then the the other side of it is like people being like personally mad at somebody because they're playing well, it's it's like wait a second, like they've they're just following the rules and they're getting to play in this tournament. You know, it's like where the blame should go if you're upset
about them playing in the tournament? Is the USGA not at all directed at the individual they're just trying to like there's nothing better than playing competitive golf, especially if you grew up playing athletics, Like what other sports can you play at like a at a high competitive level into your sixties in seventies, right, like you see like Dave Ryan from Springfield, like when the US or the US or the Senior Am and like I saw you just won the state Senior Am again, Like it's like
that's so cool of like you know, being able to play and compete at something at a high level and is something that no other sport offers, right right, Yeah, I gotta ask you Lebron or MJ MJ all day?
Not close? No, I mean that's that was my era too, Like it's not I don't want to get in it a bit about that because I could go all day. That's a whole other show, man.
I just uh, you know, I got a one of my colleagues is a big, big guy. He's a Cleveland or he's the same age as us. Basically he's a big Lebron Lebron guy. So just like you know, a little the flame a little there, Lebron, big golf guy. Now, maybe you'll get play with them.
I see that.
He shout out to him. I'd love to have it around with him too.
That's it's amazing how into it he is. Oh yeah, it's uh, it's been cool seeing all these guys catch catch the golf bug. Brandon. Congrats on on the mid Am. Look forward to meeting you in person at uh at the Masters of the US Open, if not before then. But thanks for coming on and congratulations on incredible achievement.
I appreciate Andy, thanks for having me and feel free to reach out anytime, buddy.
All right, big thanks to p J. Clark for editing, producing the show, all the hard work the last couple of weeks with the Ryder Cup, and thank you to everybody also that ordered our book. That was that was really great and uh, you know the coffee table book we're really excited about. So if you're if you're looking for folk gear and other things, head over to proshop dot Thefrida Egg dot com. Meg's done an awesome job stocking that.
I know.
It's I can feel in there starting to get to be that time of year where you need some layers. All right, thanks, We'll be back with a new episode next week