I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a brid Egg, Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday Fridagg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
All right, Welcome back to another edition of the Fridaygg podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by ourselves. Yes, that's right, ourselves. It's brought to you by our Frida Egg pro Shop. If you guys enjoy the podcast and are looking for any type of new golf gear, loungewear, new print for your office, go to the Frida Egg pro shop. You Getproshop dot the Fridagg. We've got a pretty wide selection right now. We've got polos, we've got hoodies, We've got
I think we've got crew necks. Yeah, we have crew necks. We have t shirts, a wide array of things, probably about seventy different courses in our print store. So if you're looking for something to spruce up your home or office, go check it out there. That's Proshop dot Thefridagg dot com. And thank you for listening. Today's episode will be a mail bag podcast. I've got Garrett Morrison right here.
What's up? How's it going? Ad read right off the top. Yeah, move and.
Merch, Move and merch, move and merch. Talking golf architecture on a long road trip, so this should be a fun one. I'm excited to talk about something other than professional golf. It's kind of been occupying the vacuum in the golf world and it'll be nice change of pace here to talk golf architecture. How's the trip end for you? If you enjoyed your jaunt through the Northeast here.
This has been an incredible trip for people who don't know. We started in Boston at an event that we held called the Backyard at Essex County Club, which was sensational. That course immediately goes into the top bucket for me, I mean, just an incredible golf course. We've gotten to play some other cool courses in the area as well.
As we were driving up to Rochester, which is where we are right now, which by the way, is not particularly near Boston, but in the midst of our drive up we stopped at an incredible place called the Country Club of Troy, which I admit I had never heard of before, but it's a Walter Travis course outside of Albany, and it's just really wonderful and I think that course is going to stick with me for a long time.
So this trip has been really invigorating in some ways in terms of the golf course part of it, and really tiring in other ways because we've had long days. We've been recordings, we've been going courses. But everything we're doing we're super lucky to do. But we are starting to run on fumes here. So thank you to everybody for sending in questions because that really helps us kind of generate a podcast out of nothing. That's what these mail bag pods are all about.
Yeah, yeah, most of the teams on the road, so putting together a podcast and getting it out there, and it's lots of good questions. So do you have this is actually a great question. Off the top. We've seen a lot of blind te shots and one of the reasons we had a golf course set up, you know, situation at our last event was blamed. But you guys on not having a bell or something, but blind te shots, what's the best method for safety? Bells? Periscopes, nothing at all?
I think there's a wide array of this. I mean, one of my favorite things is when there's like a homemade periscope. I love the Paris well dun uh at not dunbar ed ee. There's a there's like a regal marine periscope for the first tea shot.
That's so cool.
I think periscope is by far the best amat.
Because then you can actually see people. Then you're your response. You, the person who is hitting the t shot becomes responsible for knowing whether you're hitting into somebody.
And because the problem with the bell is that somebody might not ring.
It, that's exactly right. You can't really know and you have to listen for it. You don't, you don't have any control.
Yeah, exactly. So periscope by far the best method of safety, and I think it's cool. I think it looks cool. Somebody's gonna say that's so silly. One of my favorite periscopes is that Spring Valley, like a twenty dollars course north of Chicago, kind of on the Chicago Illinois border or Chicago Illinois Wisconsin border Wisconsin Chicago.
Some people in southern Illinois might agree that there's a border.
There, but it's in Wisconsin. But but there's a like a PVC pipe periscope. I don't know exactly how they how you would make a periscope, how you fashion it, but I think that's the right answer.
You know, where there's a periscope is the mines. Yeah, right, there's a periscope at the mines and it was a fun thing. The mines is where we held a joint event with no laying up this year called the thirst Buckets, a great public course outside of Grand rap INDs, and they have a periscope on one blind t shot. I think it's whole. I'm not exactly sure what hol it is,
but it's it's really cool. It's like a fun thing that you can do during the round the bell though, if you got rid of all the bells, what would the content makers do?
Yeah?
I mean what would.
People can't rank the bell? How do you fill those shots?
Yeah? I don't know, I don't know. All right? One another question, yeah, all right? This one is from Keith Roeble. He asks, are we finally seeing a next generation of architects getting new build work that seems relevant compared to the Big Four? And by the Big four, I assume he means Corn Crenshaw, Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf Design, David McLay kid and Gil Hants. That's the big four.
I think so, And I obviously I think it's important to be to know, like Fazio still gets lost your job.
That's exactly what I was going to say, if you look at what's actually going on as opposed to what gets covered in you know, alternative golf media or even in mainstream golf media. Fasio Nicholas, all these architects who have been around for a while still getting a lot of work. Your local, your regional ASGCA architect is getting a lot of work right now, and so it's not
just those four architects getting getting the work. But I think what Keith is asking is among the crew of kind of exciting young architects who seems to be prime to break out, who would you be excited to see breakout? I guess that that kind of discussion.
Yeah, I think it's been This is such a hard question. So many people ask me about like who's the next guy, Who's the or girl, who's the up and coming architect? And one of the tricky things is, like we've seen the young architects do restoration work for the buffs part renovation work, restoration work of existing courses. And you know, Rob Collins has built now two courses and nine or three courses, two nine whole courses and an eighteen whole course.
I haven't gone seen the finished product. Landman, I've seen Sweetens Gove, I haven't seen in this. You know, he's one that has multiple courses. Like you're starting to see, you actually have a body of work to go look at. Right. A lot of these guys haven't built even their first solo design. And I think restoring and renovating courses is a lot different than building a golf course from scratch. There are substantially more decisions and substantially more work. Is
it sexy work? Is it you know, sitting in a chair, you know, talking through the strategy of a whole. No, it's like permitting, it's it's construction. It's all the little things that make your client happy and have a project
run on time, run smoothie. Like one of the things that Bill and Ben, Tom and Gil and David all do extraordinarily well because they've had so many chances is the little things and run, you know, building a golf course, so I think, you know, obviously on the short list, you have like Kyle Franz, I know, has a few solo designs in the works that that's exciting. You have you know, Keith reb and Riley Johns, those are exciting guys.
Rob and Tad. I think Rob and Tad they're doing brash stuff, right, They are doing stuff that is different than what Gil, Tom and Bill and Ben are doing. They are They're pushing the limit in their own way, which I really appreciate. They're doing it their way, you know. You know, it's it's moving earth and creating. It's not building on the land.
They're not really in the corn Crenshaw tradition. Maybe they would disagree with me about that. I'm sure they've taken some inspiration from the corn Crenshaws and the Tom Doaks. But you know what's really exciting about King Collins is that they're coming from a different lineage, you know, working for Fasio and being inspired by Mike Strants things like that. It's a style of architecture that people who really are into architecture, architecture nuts haven't been obsessed with I think
for a while. So some other young architects who might be exciting to see break out young. I'm you saying in relative terms for golf architects young, I mean just like maybe younger than fifty or sixty. But Brian Schneider, Yes, Blake, Brian Schneider, Yeah, and Brian Schneider Blake Hunt currently building a course called Old Barnwell near Aiken that looks like it could be pretty exciting.
And like, so this is a perfect example, right, we saw them. You know they've done Brian's done so much restoration work. He's done so much new build with Tom. And you know he did Brian and Blake, Brian as the lead designer re renovated Lanark, really cool renovation and now they're doing a new build, like you're going to begin to see Brian Schneider original work. You know, he's
done so much. You know a lot of the work he does for Tom is is you know a lot of it is his work, but it's you know, under the vein of Tom's routing. He's doing this all on his own. You know, That's the exciting thing, right is seeing these guys kind of get a chance and and that's the big thing. There's enough work going around where finally where the big names don't take all of the really exciting new projects right there they have they can't
take on more work, if that makes sense. And like I didn't list off a ton, but like it goes down to people doing, you know, getting bigger restoration and renovation jobs too, right, it's just building that momentum towards I think we're getting getting to where we'll see younger guys getting jobs over some of the some of the you know, not old guard. They aren't old you.
Know, some of the we've been familiar with, yeah, getting those jobs at the big resorts and stuff like that. And sometimes it just takes one.
Course Mike Cocking. Mike Cocking and Ashley Me and Jeff Ogilvie would be ones to watch.
And there they've got something in Minnesota, I believe in Georgia that's yeah, right, coming up in the next couple of years. Should we mention that or not? Okay? In any case, we're going on to another question. Do you have one queued up there?
I don't have one right now here.
One I'll throw you on. How can a lame This is from Ryan Selhay Ryan Silave, one of those how can a layman tell that a course architecture faux pa has taken place? Example, given shrunk and green, how can I tell that this is happening? So why don't we like start with his example? How can you tell that that a shrunken green on an older course is actually shrunken?
Because this is something that people often, even people who are really familiar with their course, might not really notice, and understandably so because they're used to the green being whatever the current green shape is. So how can you tell that something is smaller than it should be or than it used to be?
Yeah? I think the big thing with that is looking at the landform, right, yes, and what was constructed. So if you have bunkers around a green, you'll usually have shaping with a bunker and then that will tie into the green. And if you see, you know, the face and then there's a lot of rough a lot of times that's a telltale sign. Now, some architects built bunkers
off of greens. This isn't always just right, but the big thing, especially especially if you go around your course and you see like a consistent you know, especially say a Donald Ross course, right, you'll see a lot of times backs of greens built up. Now those backs of greens are built up and the green would push to the edges of the build is the way they were
when they opened. Right, So if you see that the backs of the green and then along the sides are kind of built up and there's rough you know, I don't know many architects just in general generally speaking, that built like circular greens. And that's like a telltale sign, like that's the number one telltale salige. Like not a
lot of architects built just circle greens. Right. If you think of the way a water sprinkler you know, works in your yard, you start to realize why something might become a circle, right, it goes around in a circle. And also from a mowing standpoint, mowing a circle is easier than mowing a square.
It's just over time, the evolution of the green shape is going to come in a little bit and you woult you know, the greenkeepers won't notice it.
Like it's so easy, Like think about you're mowing your lawn, but these people are mowing their these greens and they're trying to be super precise a lot of times when it's dark, and how easy it is to miss a corner by a couple inches or you know, in some cases you need to save money. How do you do that. Let's cut down on how often we mow, Like you know,
there are all these little things. But over time, especially especially in the southeast where you've got the bermuda grass, like you've got this, you know, it's so easy to miss a corner. Have that grow up, and then then the next time you go around, you just don't think that's part of the green. The other thing you can look at is is sprinkler heads. That's a good sign, but a lot of times sprinkler So sprinkler heads have a lifespan of like thirty years and spring. Look at them,
See if they're new, See if they're old. If they're older, that'll give you an idea. Like so if they're older and they're thirty years old, right, you'll see where kind of the greens were thirty years ago. Now those are probably still smaller than they should be. Right. It's a it's a tricky thing, like you know, and if you want to get more into it, but if you're just looking at it, I think like looking at like how the greens built, how it's shaped right.
Yeah, especially on older courses. Look for where the green pad is. There's usually some kind of green pad, some kind of build and if the green's not out to the edge of that, then it's probably a little bit too small.
And then with like fairways and stuff, I would I would start to look at like bunkers.
Yes, where the bunkers are they lost in the rough. Fairways should usually be right out to the bunker.
Yeah, either the inside like either the at least the inside edge of them. I don't know many architects that are just like putting bunkers out in season of rough, like maybe some might go inside edge, maybe some might go middle, like, you know, there's all different. It's it's always really tricky to tie in a bunker at a fair away. Do you go all the way out to the wide like I prefer wide in and out lines, but others prefer other things.
So yeah, all right, So those are some nuts and bolts for people. Maybe maybe your home course, maybe you're looking for this kind of stuff that'll uh maybe that maybe that'll help. But it's it's kind of a complicated thing. The key is just going to see like a well restored course and then comparing it to other courses. All right, question from Shane Bacon. Yeah, what is the perfect restribution restribution? What is the perfect restroom distribution on a golf course?
What holes? Multiple? I mean, first of all, two dudes should not be answering this question.
Yeah, exactly. I I think I think every every six holes seems like probably the them out right.
I guess, yeah, I mean I was thinking about it. Three restrooms, but also like just put them. They need to be located at gathering points where there's like multiple different teas and greens. If the golf course has that, that's probably where the restroom should be, right.
Yeah, exactly, all right, that's that's enough fun, that's enough.
Thank you for your question, Shane. Let's get another one.
Here's a big ee. What's your favorite green template on a par three or short course? Are these green templates more fun when you're hitting wedges opposed to long irons in oh.
Man, I guess that's a that's a good question. I mean there, but there are some templates like the Beertz that are more fun when you're when you aren't hitting a short club, right. The Beireritz is funny.
I think the Beers is a better green now for par fives than it is for par three because like you have to have the part three B like two seventy to have a long hitter running it in.
Like a reachable par five situation. Yeah, hitting a three wood in because.
Then it actually the one hit meadow Brook, which we have had an event at the last two years is Andy Staples redesign. It's a reachable par five and it plays uphill.
Yeah, it's cool yea.
So it's likely even long long hitters are hitting uphill, so your SHOT's naturally coming in flatter and running.
Yeah. We should probably tell people what a beer it's is. It's it's that green. It's a long green with a big trough running perpendicular to the line of play, kind of through the middle, and the idea of the hole is that you're hitting a long club, you kind of run your ball through the through the trough to the other side. So other other temples, I don't know, what do you think, Like I'd love to see on a short course like a double plat toe type green or
a maiden type green. These are both greens that have like shelves, multiple shelves on different in different corners. Of the green and then kind of this you know, gully running through them in various different arrangements. I think that's a cool template quote unquote for a short par three because you can find a bunch of different pins, and the difference between a really good shot and just a good shot is pretty stark. Yeah.
I think just in general, greens that have a lot of different options and options get thrown too much around. But like the way to think about it is really tough positions and really gettable positions and something in between. I think something for a par three, a short part three, particularly if you have a middle pin. If you can put the pin right in the middle and you think, wow, that's great pin, it's usually a really great green, like at the bare minimum, and that goes for any green.
Like when you just throw the pin right in the smack dab in the middle of the green and you're like, oh wow, this is a pretty cool pin, that's usually a great, great green because that means there's a lot going on, right, It's not just a pancake.
Yeah, all right. Continuing on the theme of greens, Preston Walford asks a lot of us know a great set of greens when we play them, but struggle to explain to the uninitiated what makes some greens better than others? Most people I play with great greens strictly on conditioning. What would be some things to look out for when
assessing a course's greens. So we actually just recorded a video, a little preview of some future content, recorded a video about caper Rundle where we kind of address this question of what makes a great green, what makes a great set of greens? But just to break it down in really simple terms, what are what do you think are some criteria? What are some like simple things that people can look for when they see their courses greens?
Yeah, I think variety is right at the top. So different shapes, different orientation, And what I mean by orientation is how does the green sit? Like what angle does the green sit that it asks you to be at? Going back? So you know, do certain shots open and with greens? You know, I'm talking about the bunkers and the surrounds. Right, if every green is like bunker right, bunker left, and it's straight on, you know, that's not very interesting, right You're you're you're kind of it's kind
of asking you to do the same thing. But if you can open, you know, one way with a hard angle so that it's like, oh wow, it's really advantageous if I'm over here on the right, Like a great way to you know, look at greens is to go backwards. If you look at them from behind them and kind of look back, it's like, okay, if the pin's over here, I want to be over here. It would be easier
to hit a shot in from here. And when you're behind the green, it's really easy to tell this stuff, or if you take a photo from behind the green, right. So I think the big thing for me with greens is variety. You don't want all of them to be back to front. You don't want all of them to have You don't want all of them to be the craziest green you've ever seen.
That's right. You don't want all of them to be huge.
Yeah, because you want like, you want some subtle ones. I think, like one of the things I've I've thought about a lot, and I think, you know, Bill core and Ben Crenshaw are I think among the best to ever do it. And one of the things I always am, you know, kind of walk away with the courses from is like I say that's such a cool green so often, and I can count on one hand how many times I've looked at green and been like, wow, that that might be a little too much, right, Like, they have
such confidence. And one of the things that the confidence does is that those guys aren't afraid to build a really simple green. And I used to think that confidence was building something bold and something big with crazy you know crazy, you know, undulations in it. But now the more I've thought about it, the more I've seen, I think that the really great architects have the confidence to build something so subtle and simple and know that it's great. Right,
It's a pretty tame green with one feature. You know, it doesn't have seventeen little pockets, and it's this combined with this, with this, it's just oh, this is a cool green. Sight. You know, you have to play up to this rise and we're just gonna put a little little bump in this spot and it's going to impact every single pin on the green.
Yeah, great does not necessarily mean wild.
So so with that, like a mixture of those types of greens with some other greens like where where you need to spice up a hole, they all relate back to the hole, right, and you know, if the course is a little bit flatter, then you might see a
little bit more juice in the greens. Right. If the course has a little bit more going on in the land, then sometimes like subtle greens are the right thing because you're doing so much to get to the green, right, And I think that's the thing, is they it's hard to like say this is the you know, the greens relate to the site, because if the site is big and bold and has a ton of movement, you know,
the greens. It's okay to have a little bit more quiet greens there because you know, everything else is you know, getting you there. But if the if the land's pretty flat and everything, you have to do stuff at the green in order to create the interest back right.
Yeah, I totally agree. Variety is the watchword. And I think variety also applies to pin positions on greens. Right. So a good set of greens, sometimes they'll be simple, sometimes they'll be small. Maybe there won't be many pin positions on those greens, but there need to be some greens on the course where you can find different pin positions in different sections of the greens that are meaningful for the strategy of the hole. That change something about
how you ideally want to play the hole. Right, So, I think a variety of pin positions on an individual green is a really important thing to look for. If you look at a set of eighteen greens and you see a bunch of greens where you can't really put the pin in a bunch of different places, or where if you're putting the pin in different places, it doesn't really change anything about the way you attack the hole, then you might be dealing with a set of greens.
This is a bit too simplistic to be interesting over the long haul. So I think this idea of standing behind a green and looking back at the hole, looking at how it relates to the way the hole is played, is the most important concept here. So if you're trying to introduce somebody to how greens are designed, or if somebody's curious about that, then taking them behind a green looking at it as it relates to the hole, and talking about how different areas of the green might be
pinned and how that might change things. I think that's the most impactful discussion that you can have with somebody. But I would definitely advise making sure that that person wants to hear what you're talking about, because just spouting off about golf architecture at somebody can sometimes not have the intended effect, Which leads me to this next question that I'm curious to hear your reaction to from Jason Shanahan.
Really good question. How do you balance talking course architecture with people who really don't care without sounding like a pompous ass. Well, first of all, I suggest not talking to people about it who don't care about golf art course architecture, who don't like it, you know, just you know, talk about movies or talk about the bears or something else. Second of all, I would suggest that asking us how not to sound like a pompous ass, some people would
say that we are not the people to ask about that. Yeah, But that said, do you have a response to this question, Anail?
I talked with a lot of people about golf and you know, golf courses, and like, I mean, the biggest thing I think is just listen to people like I. Here's the thing I always think about. Golf courses to me, are a lot like restaurants. Okay, everybody has different tastes, and if everybody had the same taste, life would be pretty fucking boring, right, Like, so if I like one thing, if I like this restaurant and you know, my wife likes the other restaurant and doesn't like that one, like,
I don't get like all snooty about it. I just say, that's weird. You know, I like that place, So like, why wouldn't apply the same thing, right And and like I'm fine giving my opinion on places. And I think this is an important like what would I say? What you say? What? Tom Doak says? What you know? Rhys Jones says, what It's all just an opinion. That's the beautiful thing about about it. It's art, it's it's to be judged, it's you know, you know, it's not everybody
likes it. It makes different people people feel different ways. So I think the number one thing is just understanding that it's okay if somebody has a different opinion than you. And it's okay if somebody likes a said course. You know, in a lot of people, it's a hard thing to express why you like a course. I like to understand
why I like a course. And I like to think about a golf course in a way that a lot of people don't think about courses, and that's you know, everybody plays golf for different reasons, and that's the beauty of the game. So that's what I would say, is like, if golf architecture is your thing, if you're listening to this podcast, it probably is, then like, yeah, that's cool, that's my thing. Like I've spent a lot of time with Garrett. Garrett's like a kind of a closet gearhead.
I'm not so so, but like when Garrett starts picking up putters and fiddling around with them and talking about things, I don't, you know, I don't roll my eyes. I just listened to it and I might pick something up, you know. And I think that's the other thing is like I always approach caddying this way. And when I was like I was in high school, I was a high school golfer, I was playing AJGA tournaments. I was better than almost everybody that I candy for. But you know,
you can't go in there with that mentality. You can't carry somebody's bag every day for eighteen holes knowing you're better than them and have that attitude of like I know more than about golf than you and be a good caddy. Right. The way I used to approach caddying was listen, Like, I know, I know way more about golf than this person, and I know I can tell them the shot they should hit, and they aren't going to listen to me. If I do, I'm not gonna
do that. But something that this person says will probably help me understand the game of golf more because they might just understand something that I don't and something. It's the same thing with courses, right, Like somebody could love Reese Jones work and say something that I've never thought of, right. I'm not a big Reese Jones fan, right, So that's that's kind of my thing. It's just understanding that, like different different opinions, like and may this is just life advice, right,
It's like different opinions. It's okay, it's not that end of the world.
Yeah, absolutely, And knowing that everybody has something of value to contribute to any subject, even if it's a subject you know a lot about and that the other person might just be getting into. Sometimes that can be a really interesting conversation. Like I'm always fascinated to hear what my wife has to say. About golf courses, whether we're at a golf course or we see one on TV. Her reaction it might not necessarily be my reaction. She
might not be noticing things that I usually notice. But it's it's interesting to me to hear what she has to say, and it kind of gets me out of my bubble a little bit to hear that. At the same time, can I reframe this a little bit, because I think it's I think you have to do something more than say everybody has a different opinion, and that's okay. I think that's that's important. It's important to say that,
but sometimes that's not quite enough. And the times when that's not quite enough is when say you're in a club, or say you're just a member at a public course or something, and the membership is having a discussion or a debate about what to do with the course, whether to change a certain hole, whether to restore something, whether
to remove trees. All of these questions confront courses and clubs on a daily basis, and members have to debate with each other and figure out what to do right and so in that situation, saying oh, everybody has their own opinion and that's Okay, suddenly that doesn't quite work. And so how in that situation do you go about being a golf architecture nut, loving classic golf architecture and not coming off as a jerk, you know, And I think that that just to me, it just comes down to persuasion.
Right, Yeah, it's not exercising.
You have to be subtle about it, right, You have to like exercise some social graces and going about it.
Yeah, I've had a club with way too many trees and at one point in my life and I you know, I was young, I was in my twenties, and I like went about it way the wrong way. Like I got so many people like, what's this guy just hollering about trees? You know, you have to have some tax and some patience and and and that's I mean, it's hard. It's like anything in life. You have to be diplomatic.
But I think the big thing is like show showing why you know, this was the way it was if you're restoring something, or I think a really good way to do it is to ask people what their favorite courses are and a lot of times like that, well, and you can glean something from that, right and be like hey, Like, you know, you said you like so and so course, well, like, oh, you say you like your courses abandon do they have a ton of trees and like it seems like they afford a lot of
space off the play off the tee. That might be why you like them is that you know, you can get your ball out there and then you have a lot of different options on how you can hit into the green and you can play up the left or you could play up the right because there's enough space to do so. You know. So that's like a way to do it right is to kind of ask them questions and then work off that and make them almost you know, it's like an old sales trick, like make somebody think it's their idea.
That's exactly what it is, right, and that is the most effective way to persuade somebody of something is to make them feel like it's in their interest or that it was even their idea to do something. And my belief is that most golfers kind of have fun with similar kinds of golf architecture. I don't believe that most golfers have a lot of fun playing super narrow, hard tree lined courses with a lot of rough Now, some
golfers do enjoy that. I don't want to take anything away from that, but I would just hazard a guess that most golfers like something other than that, And so you know, we can eventually get to that conclusion together, but we just have to like not yell at each other about it first, and have each side kind of dig in and start making it about pride.
I've got a question for you that's going to be hard for you not to sound like a pompous ask god from par Birdie Bertie. Oh no, which person has done the most damaged to golf architecture? A R T J JR B Dick NuGen See, Jack Nicholas or d Reese Johnson?
You bastard? Okay, listen, Parr Birdie. Birdie asked actually a few questions and all of them were pretty pointed. So Parr Birdie, Birdie, hope, hope you're doing okay. It it seems like something is bothering you at but perhaps at your club. But in any case of those, God, I don't know. I mean, Reyes Jones is really is really uh reek. Some havoc at at a lot of really really good courses.
Because Jack though.
Yeah, I mean I think ultimately you'd have to go with Jack nickolss there and okay, here, here's here's why I'm saying Jack Nicholas. It's not because I think that he's a clueless architect or that his best courses are bad. I think actually the best Jack Nicklass courses are really good, and some of them are really great places to hold
pro tournaments, Mierfield Village being one of them. I've been more or less persuaded of this by Joseph Lamannia, but Mierfield Village is a terrific PGA tour venue, and Jack Nicholas clearly knows how to build that kind of course and make it interesting, make it challenging, and so the best Jack Nicholas courses are really good. I'm not saying Jack Nicholas is some kind of golf architecture idiot.
But the.
Problem starts with the factory model of Jack nicholas designs, and how many courses were built with the Jack Nicholas name on them that didn't necessarily have much input from Jack Nicholas, didn't necessarily represent much passion on his part in building them, creating them, and I think that that ultimately is the thing that gets golf architects in the
end is the not paying attention to individual projects. Once they get too much work, once they're stretched too thin, once they stop caring about the course that they're building like it's life or death, then you start getting mediocre work. And that is I think the big problem that affects golf architecture, especially in boom times like we're having right now.
So I think a question that all architects in this current kind of active moment in golf course development need to ask themselves is how much work can I really take on and remain passionate about each individual project. So I'm choosing Jack Nicholas because there are just way too many Jack Nicholas courses for him to have really cared about all of them.
And I asked the question so I didn't have to answer it.
So you've just hung me out to dry, like you've just completely abandoned me, just like just like tally on by Jack Nicholas. Hating hill. Yeah, thanks Andy, All right, question from cheesehead sports nut. Great great name.
Ah yeah, Wisconsin sports suck.
And that's your hill, all right, She's head sports nut. Che's head the lidos seems like a true golf course architecture, modern marvel on a number of levels. Do you see that being a total one offer paving the way for other lost courses to be rebuilt? Okay, so some context, I mean probably just about everybody listening to this knows this.
But Tom Doak and his team are rebuilding C. B. McDonald's lost Liedo Golf Club in the middle of Wisconsin near the Sand Valley Golf Resort, and they are using kind of some innovative methods to really recreate exactly what that course might have been at the ground level. So that's the project that Cheese had Sportsnut is referring to and asking whether that's just one thing that will happen one time, or whether it's going to open up a new kind of possibility in golf course architecture.
What do you think about that, Andy, I'm really excited about seeing the lido. I don't know how many lido type projects I want to see. I don't like the idea of getting in the habit of copying holes straight straight up. I don't like, you know, in this case, the Lido was considered by some the greatest course of its era. And it's gone. And I think it's very important to use this type of technology in that vein.
Am I bringing something back that was truly the best course or one of the five best courses and it's gone. And I can't think of many courses that are in that type of vein as the Leado. So with that said, I would hate to see people start to use this technology to recreate holes at other golf courses because why not hire a talented architect and let them build stuff on their own? Why Like, who would want the you know in their heyday? Who would want the rolling Stones
to try and be the Beatles? It's silly, right what hire? Push the the practice of golf architecture into the future, not live in the past, right, Like use the principles of those great courses to build new stuff and you know, tweak it. Don't just copy what happened like that. That's
just repel art and that's not good. So I think like there there's some of this with like the Rainer McDonald's stuff, and I'm I'm a huge Rainer McDonald fan, But there can be twists of those templates and those templates were were you know, there are a lot of differences in the templates at different courses. Right, it's great to have, but like building straight up a template course, Like I think it's great to give architects the chance to build what they want to build.
You know, create something new.
Think about hiring a great artist and like telling them what.
To paint yeah yeah, or or having them paint according to kind of like a machine learning adaptation of Michelangelo or something, you know like that.
That So.
The Leado is one of one, the original Leado, the CB McDonald Lido. There there was no other golf course like that golf course, not one, And so I think that this project of recreating the Lido should similarly be unique because the Lido was unique. So it justifies this project and the methods that they used to recreate the course.
But golf architecture has to move forward, right, Once we start using new technology to recreate lost courses, our reverence for Golden age golf course architecture has gone way too far. We're going to start living in this kind of nostalgia, right, instead of pushing forward, finding new things, using old ideas and spinning them in some way to create something new.
That's what art has to do. In order to remain a live So honestly, using this technology that they've used at the New Leader in Wisconsin to do other golf course projects, I think is wou would pose a major threat to the art of golf course design. And I really really hope that people don't do it, like I think it's I think that would be a very very bad thing. So if you're thinking about doing it, please don't. All right, moving on, Yeah, all right, we probably have
time for one or two more questions here. Here's an interesting one from Andy Lack, fellow podcaster. Really good question. If a new architect came to you and said, I can go anywhere in the world to study one course before I build mine, where would you send him? So I think this question part of its premise is that you know the land of course, we would advise the architect go find this a course built on a similar piece of land and kind of study that, like the
greatest course built on X piece of land. Study that that would probably be the real move. But let's just think, you know, in general, what would be the greatest place to learn how to do golf course architecture.
Ah, that's a great question. I personally I think a lot of golf course construction and golf architecture. Golf courses are very socially irresponsible in terms of their waste and their opulence. So to me, if I was going to send somebody who was thinking about building a golf course to a course, I would send them to sand Hills because there is you know, you have a masterpiece of golf design. And also it shows that everything doesn't need to be over the top to be a great place
and a great place to hang out. Like you know, you're building these courses and really you're building a golf course, so everything should be centered around the golf course like everything else. Like it's nice to have nice stuff at golf courses, but they are really unnecessary. And I think, like from a facility standpoint, sand Hills is the place that to me, it just it always leaves an impact on me as to like, hey, you know, everything doesn't
need to be five star. If you have the best golf course in the world, all you know, one of the best golf courses in the world. All you want to do is get people out to play the golf course, Like and the lodging doesn't have to be extraordinary you're
gonna be exhausted after a day of playing golf. You know, they have good food, they have strong drinks, they have you know, comfortable beds, and unbelievable golf course that's maintained for far, far less than you know, most golf courses in his class.
Yeah, and it's appropriate to go there if you're a modern architect. Sand Hills is kind of at the at the genesis of you know, what we now know of as modern golf course architecture. This, this new era of golf course architecture, sand Hills is is kind of the course. So yeah, I agree with a lot of that. You know, a lot of people would probably say the old course, you know, good one too. Yeah, So that that that's
probably it's that has that has proven over time. The old course has its bona fides as a school room for golf course architects. That's where so many great golf course architects have gone to learn about the craft of golf course design, from you know, early twentieth century architects through to the present day. You know, many many golf course architects have learned their most important lessons from that course.
But we are you know, we're Americans, with a lot of our coverage is kind of American based.
So well, if you think about those two that we picked out, they're roughly too cheap, probably maybe the two cheapest courses to build up their era.
Yeah, yeah, two of the most natural courses. And the old course wasn't I'm not even sure you could call it built the enemy. Well that's what I said, you know, yeah, and so that that's that. Yeah, it goes to show you you don't need to do too much the course.
Honestly, like so many courses, if they just did seventy percent less would be better places. Like that's the crazy thing to me just from my lens. And this again, this is you know, as somebody who this is tons of places every year. To me, my general takeaway is, well I could have done without that more so than I really wish they had this. Like I find myself more often being like, well that was a little too much,
more than I really wish they had this. Like the only thing that I ever am like I really wish, I really wish there was more water to drink on a golf course is really like what I find myself saying the most.
Well, here's something that I find myself doing a lot at golf courses that maybe aren't architecturally the best. And I do play those courses and enjoy them because it's
golf and it's all fun. But whatever. Sometimes if I hit a ball way offline and I'm kind of hunting off the golf course in whatever the natural area around the golf course is, sometimes I'll find myself enjoying myself more in that environment than I did in the environment of the golf course, and I think to myself that this course has been overbuilt or the agronomy is trying to do too much to separate it from its natural environment.
And I think that's probably the biggest lesson that you can learn from sand Hills in the Old Course, is that the natural landscape is the most beautiful thing. It's the thing that we humans are sort of genetically coded to respond well to, and so try to keep that intact. Now, the course, I'll just mention this quickly because it's not as good of an answer as sand Hills or the Old Course. But the course that I would maybe send
an architect to would be Old Town Club. I think that would be that would be a cool place to go to learn about golf course architecture because across the board Old Town Club does everything well. It's beautifully routed, the greens are so interestingly designed. The restoration of that course by Corn Crenshaw is absolutely spot on. And it's not on the most extraordinary piece of land in the world. Now, it's a really good piece of golfing terrain, like it's
it's fantastic, no doubt about it. But this is not built on you know, the sand dunes of coastal Oregon. This is not on linksland. This is a fairly ordinary parkland property. Period dramatic. This is a above average parkland property, let's call it, or something beautiful.
Wildhorse would be a great one.
Wildhorse was was probably my other thought because the ones we've mentioned so far, I mean, aside from the Old Course are are private clubs, and so you know, Wildhorse very accessible and beautifully designed.
I got one here from Ben Herms. This may be is our last one. Is it wrong to judge classic courses against modern ones? Or I'm just gonna tweak this a little bit or minimalist slash found courses against manufactured ones, like should they be judged different, judged differently because they're classic and modern or minimalist versus.
So those are two different subjects, but they're both interesting.
Like should they be should we judge different types of courses against each other, you know, across generations or you know styles.
I think the short answer is is yes, you can compare anything while also offering the caveats that this is what the course is trying to do. Okay, so we just talked about the wonders of natural golf courses, but what about Shadow Creek?
Right?
Is that course was that was the purpose of that course ever going to be to be a tribute a love note to the natural landscape or ledo which was built on a marsh right and was and was really created. So I think that yeah, I mean it's it's not wrong to compare Shadow Creek to the old course at Saint Andrew's, like you you can do it like there, they have their golf courses, they have nothing common so that you can compare them and talk about why you
like one more than the other. But yeah, sure, you have to keep in mind what the course was trying to accomplish with what it was given. You can also ask the question of whether you know courses should be built on desert wasteland at all, whether whether that's a good thing to do in the first place. Now, I'm not going to be able to stop anybody from building desert courses by just saying I disapprove, But I don't necessarily think that that was golf as it's meant to
be or golf as I prefer it. And I think that that's okay to say that. I just like the course that's built on a setting that's naturally suited to golf more than the course that was built on a setting that really rejects golf at every turn. I've kind of wandered off the subject. I don't know. I think you can compare the courses. You just have to keep in mind what they're trying to do.
Yeah, I have thoughts on this too, from the sense of, you know, the rankings right e anyway ranks courses. It's like, well, you know, the reality is like a course could be better, but I might want to play a different course more.
You know. Championship courses are great examples of this, Like I you know, you go to so many clubs that have multiple courses in a championship course and a non championship course, and the non championship course is more popular with his members than the championship course, Like they play the championship course when they bring guests out, Like, so, what's the better course? What's the better course? Like is the better course of the course that the members want
to play more that? You know, what restaurants better the one that I want to eat at more? Like there's different types of restaurants right now, Like there's those once in a like once every once in a while restaurants that blow your socks off, like with great food and everything, but you're like, I wouldn't want to do this regularly, right,
And it's the same thing with golf courses. There are courses that like really like you know, blow your mind and you're like, god, this is incredible, but they're like taxing and you're kind of like, I don't think I would want to do this every day. And then you have like the courses that you're like, got it. I just wish I could play this every day. I would die a happy person. But like, so which one's better? Right? And this is the problem with rankings and saying this
course is better than this course. You know, in a vacuum. Right, there are different qualities to courses. It's almost like superlatives. Right. There are great everyday courses. This is this is a club, This is a place I'd want to be a member at. This is a public course that want to play every day. Now, this course is the most dramatic, most spectacular course, right, And if I was going to play one place before
I died, I want to play that place, right. And the that's the thing is like that place against the place that is the best, is the place I want to play every day. I might play the place I want to play every day seven times to three over the spectacular one. But if I had one round, I'd play the other, of course, so which one's better? Like?
This is the silly thing with the rankings. The rankings are so that they cause such damage because the reality of the rankings is that they are centered around dramatic land and difficulty. For the most part, I think golf dot Com has done a good job of kind of getting away from that, but especially golf digest is like, if you don't have dramatic land or a really hard course, good luck, good luck, And what's that do for the
course Without dramatic land. Then they try and make their course really hard in order to, you know, compel raiders to think that it is a good course. This is the disease of the rankings and the harm that so many rankings have done to golf architecture. Instead of golf courses thinking about how do we be the best course we can be and what our identity is, they try and build their identity off what they're rated on, which is just asinine.
You took that question a different direction than I was thinking of it. I was thinking of it as like, how would I determine my favorite course? How would I compare one course to another, or you know, do that? But you're thinking of it in terms of how do you determine which course's best? And that process of trying to figure out which course is the best and getting a bunch of different people together and asking them to collectively come up with an idea of which course's best
is always going to be a pretty silly process. I totally agree with that, and it happens to be a process that has become institutionalized in the golf course industry and has had a pretty bad effect on what golf courses do. So I'm with you on that. But I think it's different to just talk about favorite courses because you can come up with your own idiosyncratic criteria and
just make decisions based on that. You know. On this trip, we've played some some really great courses, but the one that I keep thinking about, the one that I really love, is Cape Arundle. I also think that Essex County Club is one of the best courses I've ever played, but maybe my favorite on the trip was Cape Rundle.
Probably arguably the least. It's definitely probably the least spectacular land of the trip. The settings idyllic right Land is quiet, yeah, And and I think that's the thing is like, that's a great everyday course. That's the course you would love to play every day because of a lot of things, and one of them being like it's super easy to go around it, like it's not going to kill you.
It's a course that's suited to me because I'm a golfer of pretty average abilities and pretty average length off the tee, and it's fifty eight hundred yards and it really feels like a pleasure to play that course as opposed to hitting five wood into every grain, and that is something that can't enter that kind of thinking, can't enter into the discussion when you talk about best courses, and especially when you talk about best courses as rated by a group of people, you can't start talking about
what your particular game is or what your particular preferences are. And so I think when you move from favorite to best, a lot of things happen, and a lot of them aren't very good.
All right, I think that's a good stapping point. We're right around an hour here, yeah, so let's wrap up there. Thank you guys for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast. Today's episode was edited by the wonderful meg Adkins. She does a great job with many many things, including this podcast. As a quick reminder, sign up for the Fridagg newsletter. It is a wonderful way to stay up
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