Kyle Hegland

Hey everyone, it's Andy Johnson from the Friday Egg. I had a great trip out to sand Hills over the weekend in an awesome chat with Kyle Heglund. They're superintendent. We sat down in between rounds in the sand Hills Library and the conversation just kind of started, so we ran with it.

So that's why there's no usual introduction.

Enjoy the podcast and be sure to subscribe to the newsletter to keep up to date with all the other sand Hills content that will be posted over the next few days. As always, thanks for listening, and without further ado, here's Kyle Heglund.

I miss a green for example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball.

In a bride egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida egg, Frida egg brid egg Frida egg bride egg Lie.

I'm about ready to run off with the huff course. How many superintendents have a wider range of temperatures.

Than you have?

I would guess not many.

I mean it's you know, we have a lot of things that really go in our direction, like but the temperature extremes are tough.

Like we had a day two years ago in November.

It was seventy seven degrees on a Sunday at I was in Wisconsin three years ago because it was when Michigan State played Ohio State and got our asses kicked. And I was in Wisconsin visiting family and I seen this weather come in and my assistant and I'm like, hey, we got a tart greens right now. So I called them Saturday night. They started tarping Sunday morning, called all these high school kids, everybody we could get, and and then I got it. Takes me twelve hours to get home.

O'clock in the evening and it was still seventy degrees out and by noon the next day on Monday, thirteen below zero. Thirteen below zero. Like we were just we I mean it was we got everything done. We missed like one spot on the on six the back right corner there our tarp was ripped and we got that done two days later and it died. Like that's how we could have lost the whole all the greens and then think that quick. So it's not it's not more or less difficult. It's just different. You know.

You just have to you have to be adaptable out here, you just won't make it, and you have to. Superintendent's love regimes and schedules. I hate, like if you start telling me at your schedule, then I'd start stop listening to you. That's that's just a fact. I just don't I don't dig that. So and we just can't out here. So we just tried to try to be creative.

I draft people in nuts because I never have a schedule. I like you already, I don't know what time my teeth time is for like a tournament, until I set my alarm at night, I look and say, oh, I gotta get up at six thirty.

My brother is just the like he would plan out tomorrow right now to the minute. Like I know, it just makes you too constricted, and you just can't do it out here in my position, because if you try to say what the weather is gonna do, you're just gonna get your ass kicked.

And it seems like it just that happens.

Yeah, So we have a lot of those we have, you know, and it can be one hundred and ten and you know, we had you're my son was born twenty twelve. We averaged one hundred and two point three was our daytime, I average, we were like one hundred and twelve for like seven days, and then we've had you know, like this August. We never got out of the seventies or two weeks in August. So, I mean, it just it just goes up. And now we're a thirty three hundred feet elevation. That's part of it, you know.

It wasn't really humid, it was more windy.

It was Yeah.

Well, I mean even then, it's still it's still a little sticky for me. My sister lives in Milwaukee, and I was back visiting her this summer for just a couple of days. And it was a week before the US Open. I'm like, oh my god, how did I live here? I think it was like eighty degrees.

It was just unbearable. It was so thick and sticky, and so we don't have to deal with that.

So so tell us about how you got into being a superintendent, like you know, and you know.

Your job's working up to I just I needed a job.

I played baseball legion ball junior bay Ruth and I needed john that got me done early. So I had some buddies that started working at a golf course in New Glaris, Aida Way's country Club. It's nothing fancy. Started working there like that, thought it was fun. Had never played golf before one time, started playing a little bit of golf.

Worked there.

I think I was a sophomore, I don't know, maybe as a junior when I started doing that. So I worked there through high school in the summer and you know, you work in the fall and what have you and go to college. My freshman year University of Wisconsin, Stevens Point just didn't really I didn't know what I wanted to do, as most kids that age don't know what they want to do. And my superintendent who I didn't even know that. I didn't even know that was his title.

Is this that you do?

And you know, so he just started talking to me like, hey, you know this, you kind of got a knack for it, and.

I think you'd be good.

You should take some classes or something and see if you like it. And that's what I did, and I don't know why. I just liked it and like saying, you know, I'm transferred to Michigan State and from there I was all in. Was really fortunate too. I had one of my really good friends had worked up at Crystal Downs, if you can believe that, and I didn't even know what Crystal Downs was at the time.

I had no idea about golf architecture or any of that.

And I just went up with him on some weekend when I was at Michigan State, maybe a couple of weeks in and was like, holy shit, what was that all about? And then that's where my love for golf architecture really started. And I was like, I gotta know more about this. This is amazing and I so you got to do internships, and at Michigan State you could do a six month you know, an internship and extended one.

And I just knew I didn't want to work.

Or they had winners. I grew up in Wisconsin. I hated winner So I just got lucky. I wanted to go work for a real good, a real talented superintendent, and that was Doug Peterson. And they were just starting to build, you know, Austin Golf Club, which is Ben's home club in Austin, Texas. I went down there and

And it was he let me just read. So I'd go and soak it up all day, and then I would just go read you know George Thomas or you know The Lynx or that kind of stuff at night, and I was all in. From then on, I was all in.

So what's your favorite architecture book?

Oh man, there's so many good ones. I really love. You know, McKenzie's The Spirit of Saint Andrews. I try to give that.

That's that's a book I've gifted twenty five times. I think I think you can still get a gcsua a show for like five bucks.

I have.

I just think I still have like ten copies of it. That human kind of like golf architecture. You used to start reading that.

That's why I gave that. A buddy of mine wanted it. He's like, let me get a golf course architecture book to read. And I gave him that and he read it. Yeah, he read in like three days. He was like, oh, that was awesome.

And it could be in it. It's so true today.

I mean, so many of his things are still you know, whether it's bunkers or maintenance or you know, committee, it's the Yeah, it's so good. And there's so many good I mean there's a lot of great books. You know, Shackle for its books, and you know, I would just stare at that Cypress point book like just like you know, like I think kids that are twenty probably stare at you know, a Playboy or Maxim or whatever. I was just you know, Cypress point book, going holy shit, what is this?

And so that's I'm a golf architecture dork.

And and uh I was fortunately just go work for some really great people that Harvard harvested that and challenged me to be a good superintendent or you know, up and coming superintendent. So I got to go back and work for Doug and I worked for him for I'm old seven eight years and and.

Then Dick took a chance on me.

I was twenty seven years old, and I when I got this job, which seems kind of scary when you say that out loud right now, you know, he entrusted me, and I'll always be grateful for that. Yeah, it was, but you know, to be honest with you, they you know, they interviewed my she was my fiance, now it's my wife. They interviewed her harder than me. They wanted to make sure Ashley. My wife was, it's gonna be okay living in Mulla, Nebraska and we're fortunate. We love we love Mullen.

Hey State Chance in basketball. They are huge, very proud of that.

I'm very, very proud of that unbelievable story. It is a great story. Rusty more of their head basketball coaches, my closest friend, and I mean, I I tear up a little bit just thinking about it. Honestly, it's kind of amazing.

Story.

Yeah, well it's it's it's it's what's great about sports, whether it's golf or basketball or whatever, when you see kids work hard and accomplish something that they worked hard for and that was.

A lot of fun.

So you moved from Austin, Texas to Nebraska. Yeah, so what's a stretch when you came out here for like your first time? I mean like what was I mean? Did you just fall in love with the golf course and and then you know, figure, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to you know, work at maybe arguably the world's greatest golf course, or you know, the greatest modern golf course for sure.

I will I was roommates with a kid who's a Superintendent's name was Tony Nice.

And he's down at U. What is it, Old marsh.

Old marsh Yeah, And he reminded me that I told him I was gonna be the superintendent sand Hills when I graduated from Michigan State.

I kind of forgot that.

I just always was in love with what sand Hills was. If you had really told me.

How to ended up here, I would have said bullshit. But yes, I understood the gravity.

And the largeness of what I was coming up here to interview for.

And you know, I looked at my fiance at the time. I was like, Hey, you don't think you can do it, then we can't do it. But in reality, I was like, we're gonna do this. But doing what I do for a living, you know, it's unfortunate and I'm blessed.

I try not to be that guy, but we just try to smell the roses a lot and try to have fun. And there's not a lot of fun in the golf industry. Anymore, and everybody wants to bitch and moan and complain about.

How hard it is or how difficult it is. And I'm not saying it's not. I just like that we have a lot of fun and we enjoy being where we're at. We don't take it for granted.

We work hard, we think we do really good work, but we also we think we have as much fun as anybody does. We encourage, you know, our interns and kids that work for us to play golf, have fun, go out there and play. I'm biased now, so I can say what I think is the best golf course worse, you know, I've ever been on, and I want those kids and people.

To go out and and enjoy that. It's it's pretty cool backyard.

So yeah, it's I mean, the thing I take away from this place is like, and you can hit every type of shot you want and it never it never forces you to hit one unless you put yourself in a position that you have to hit one. But in terms of from the fairway, I mean, it's, uh, the strategy is unmatched in terms of, hey, there's this really intimidating and I think the scale is what does such

Well, you know we it's our philosophy. It's a it should always be about playability. We want you guys coming out and playing golf, have it fun. You know, I'll quote Bill directly. I do it all the time. My guys get tired of it. Hey, Gos's supposed to be fun, you know, and we just wanted that have fun. So we want it to play hard, firm, and fast. We want you to not lose any balls if humanly possible.

That's a lot of work.

And a lot of a lot of blood, sweat and tears making those what they are, but we're very, very proud of those because we want you to go out there and go, hey, I hit some bad shots.

I didn't lose any balls.

I mean, you guys are out there today was wind was going thirty five miles an hour.

Yeah, that's that's awesome. I mean that's a huge compliment. I you know, I I take that as a huge compliment. I shouldn't say that's what you guys didn't say. It was a compliment. But we're proud of that, and that's I know, that's what been a Bill want. You know, I've talked with those guys a lot about just.

You know, I think Superintendent's lose sight of that a lot, like they get worried about how it looks or what this was going to do and how it's gonna We just wanted to be to play the exact way that Ben and Bill wanted to play, and we strive hard for that to be as playable as possible, as many days as possible.

I would say that the natives have to be one of the most important aspects of the golf course. And I mean I was at a golf course a couple of weeks ago, and it's a newer course, and they the course used to be an apple orchard. So they have trouble with their their natives because of the apple trees, you know, suck so many of the certain nutrients out, and then there was such a you know, a ton of the other nutrients. And so this native stuff, I mean,

Well, well I don't I mean, man, how many pictures have you guys seen where you see this picture of native grass and it's like the most sterile like, Man, I don't want a monesstand of anything. I don't want to mona stand on my fairways. I don't want to mona stand on my greens.

That's not natural, that doesn't look natural. That's Ben Crenshaw what he thinks of a monastand of anything. And native is the most striking thing if it's just you see it all the time, just this perfectly manicured rescue that's four feet tall, and you'd lose every ball in the world in it, like, hey, that's not native and b that doesn't look natural at all.

I think we miss that a lot, and we're we try not to. We try to make sure it looks We'll take those imperfections. We're okay with some broad leaves, We're okay with.

Some other things in there. That's fine.

You know, we want you to look out and go. Man, that golf course blended right into the rest of its surroundings instead of stuck out.

So at Austin Golf Club, you you've worked your internship there and then you immediately got hired there.

Right after Yeah, after I graduated. Yes, so you got to lowly second assistant.

Yeah, so you got to see that golf course mature over the years. And and just I'm kind of curious in terms of like how you see, like, you know, how long does it take a new course to really finally settle in and become what is it?

Like?

How paid is it?

Three?

Is it five years? Is it?

It's a good question. I think there is.

I think every site's a little I mean, that's a really a cop out of an answer. Every site's a little bit specific. You gotta have the right leadership and be okay with you know, the slower the better. Let's get it all right the first time, so you don't have to go back and correct.

Some of that stuff. And you're not going to get it all right the first time. I mean, that's just not the way.

You're not going to just swing and hit every you know, you might want to move this grass line or take these trees out or what I mean. Wherever it is at Austin Golf Clube, I would say, yeah, it took a couple I.

Think we opened in one.

Man, I'm old, I forget all that stuff now, but it's probably two years before you really get all your stuff really dialed in.

That's a hard golf Have you played off alcohol?

I haven't.

That is that's a hard that's my opinion only. That's the hardest corn crench out course I played. That's hard golf course.

And yeah, it took a while to mature that.

And we and we moved tree lines, and we moved grass lines around quite a bit here and there, and and uh yeah, it just takes some time. And we're still doing that. That's Sandhills. We do that every year. So we're we just turned over. We're over twenty. So you know, Ben and Bill always won a golf course, you know they you know, that's initially how they described sand hills. And how we got into so many issues with some of the bunkers is they just wanted them

So then they started figuring out that they really had to work hard to keep bunkers where they were.

And man, it was my first year. I don't get any credit for it, but we started spraying a product in our bunkers as soon as we close, called soiltech, sets up like concrete in them, and then we till it all out in the spring when we're done.

But then then we don't have to worry about those bunkers going anywhere.

And once we figured out that we could keep the sand where it was over winter, then we started figuring out, like hey, this is what we got to do. This fairway bunker is five feet deeper than it needs to be. And we're those two fairway bunkers on one those were six seven eight feet deeper six seven years ago than they are right now. You hit them in, there's wedge

But hey, it's a long I apologize. No, no, and it's it's it's it's interesting. I mean, there's so when you're closing, you know, most people want to know this Monday, they're closing on Monday. And yes, you said to me earlier in the week that that's when the work starts. Yeah, so you you know, I think sand Hills is unbelievable. I think from like your end of the spectrum is you've got one hundred plus degree summers and then you get to winter and it can be negative thirty out here.

The first thing we do is spray soil tech. I mean that's like that's like project number one. Because you guys are out there today. If it's super dry and it's blown like that, I mean, you can move quite a bit of sand in the day. But we'll get days with a blow fifty five sixty for twenty four or forty eight hours straight and that can straight move some sand. So our biggest thing is let's get those bunkers cleaned up, held in place, get those out of the way.

And then we just start top dress and everything.

And it depends on each year and how you know, we might have some bunker work that we're working on. But first thing we'll do is we'll probably just you know, like a solid time greens and surrounds, and because we can't, nobody's out here playing.

Once we're closed, nobody plays the golf course again, so we.

Just put it's seventy five and October.

I'm not saying I have.

Outside of myself and Jared Kalina, you know, nobody plays.

Out here, So no that you know those are you know, that's what we try to.

Get at first and foremost, and then as you know, we just let's see what the weather does and we keep if we have If weather holds up, then we keep working on bunkers. And you know, we always have some car pass. You know, that's not very sexy or fun to talk about but those are all native car pass Those take work two and and we do that and and then we just started looking at the weather and as soon as we think the weather is going to you know, it's a little bit of a gamble.

Our biggest goal.

Is to go into winter as wet as possible, because that just keeps us from drying out as long as I don't apparently I don't want to work any harder than I have to. And what we have to do in the winter if it drives out is we have to winter water, which is not a fun process and it's not rocket science, but it.

Means we're out there in those terrible days and.

Yeah, what's the what's the coldest it's ever been when you've been out doing stuff on.

The course, Well, it's just hard to gauge. It's I'm so used to the wind anymore. It's it's just how how hard is the wind? Long the wind is just howling and it's forty it's pretty miserable out there. And we've had I mean, we'll have days in the spring where it's just like shut it down because everybody's.

You can just you can just see people.

Getting angry or and angrier as that bunker keeps pelting them in the face or you know, or just the wind. Even so, so what we want to do is close up and then we're thinking about we tarp greens and teas, which our bak grass, and that's usually somewhere around Thanksgiving, and then we blow out our irrigation system sometime after that. It's usually within a week or ten days of each other. And then we sit back and hope we get a

Cows and gray goose. And if not, then you got a lot of work to do.

Yeah, so we hope for we usually stay pretty cold and pretty dry through December and January, and then we usually you know, the weather starts really fluctuating in February and March, and that's when you can get these really massive you know, temperature swings where it can be fifty five in the day thirteen below at night.

You know that's that's hard and grass. Yeah, so we think we've done a good job. I've been here eleven years.

I would like to think we've gotten a little bit better each year, and each you know, our biggest challenge is coming out of winter. So if we if you come out here in March and you're walking around it sounds like you're walking on glass, it's not good.

So I've had those years.

We hope we don't have many of those years left in us. But and a lot of that is working the spring in the fall, whether it's terrifying and deep tying and planet airon and doing all that kind of stuff, and lots and lots and lots of top dressing. We I don't have to pay for sand, get the top dressed with the same sand that the whole golf course is built on. Believe me, I know how nice that is. But we throw a lot of sand. We just bury

Weather goes to hell.

We've done it as many as four times, you know, before the weather goes completely bad.

And then in the spring, same thing.

We'll just keep top dressing and that helps the playability, that helps us keeping it firm, and eventually it was pretty thatchy and organicy when I got here ten years ago. And if you'd have told me it had taken me ten eleven years to get it where I kind of like it out of said, you're crazy. But it's a game of attrition, and you know, you get a little you're twenty seven, you think you're a lot smarter than when you're you know, thirty seven.

So well also, I mean, if it's over ten years, I bet you know, it's accumulated a lot of like you know, material and the soil, so it takes a long time for that material to get out here. You can't do it overnight unless you just started fresh.

Well, you know, we don't want to do anything during the season, so which is a little bit of a challenge and I'm certainly not complaining about.

You just got to be creative.

And what we found is, you know, when I first got here, was like, oh man, you really should try to get an verification during the golf season, and I was like, okay, and now it's like, why would we try to do that? Like we can just it just it made me be more creative and made me push the boundaries of what we can do with how we're trying to do things, and and it's made me a much better superintendent than I ever would have been anywhere else.

It's supposed to be as good today as it was, you know, May May twenty ninth, you know in theory.

So where we like that when if you were if you were going to say when's the best time to come out here? I know you politically it has to be every day, you got it.

We're not that political.

I can say I would say anytime after like the mid mid August to the end of the season, the weather is just a lot more consistently good. Like you're just you're gonna get some ninety five days, and you're gonna get some sixty five days, but mostly it's good. Like there's plenty of days in July where it's one hundred and five and the winds blown thirty and it feels like you're you know, somebody's just falling around with the hot air, you know, blower a hair dryer, and that's not that fun.

So this course is kind of the course that changed modern golf design. It was the first one that it was done with an extremely small budget. It was built for the peerness of being a great golf course and not for like a housing development. And you know, it brought back some many of the great Golden Age principles that you saw in a modern setting. So the man behind it all was Dick Young Scatt. Yes, sir, so tell us a little bit about you know that.

Tell you about me.

Yeah, man, I consider Dick a friend and I mean that, and I think he I think he reciprocates that.

He is. He's just he is he is. I told you guys earlier. He has this great line of I.

Have a lot of faults, but being misunderstood isn't one of them, and I think that is lovely.

He is.

He's my only boss. I don't have a committee, I don't have any of that kind of stuff. So we're allowed to be creative. You know, I can go, we sit down and we talk.

If we have a problem, whether it's on a golf course or you know, whatever comes up on a superintendent, it could be a staff issue, we'll sit down and talk, get get to the bottom of it and move on.

But he is a very unique guy and I'm very very fortunate to call him a mentor and a friend. And I've shared many many you know, bud lights with him, and I feel very very fortunate. And he's just a very interesting, unique person. He he has a very unique way of thinking. He likes being if everybody's zigging left, and he definitely wants a zag right, and he wants you to, you know, do the same thing with your thought processes. And yeah, I don't. I mean, I could

What's uh, what's the best story he's told you? About about this place.

The best story I I that I can tell in public is I think and it go. It's because I got it from both sides. Dick tells this. Dick and Bill tell the same story about how mad they got it at how mad Dick got at Bill cooor for number four Green. We talked about moving you know where they pushed actual some dirt up. It's one of the only green only places they moved any real soil outside of cleaning up the bunkers and stuff and.

A few other little spots. But they had sat down to talk. And they all lived together. I mean they lived in one house, you know, so they had to go home every night. You know, they were like a family.

And Dick is not afraid to give you his opinion ever, And I love him for that. And I mean sometimes, especially earlier in my career and even now, I mean, if he thinks you suck at something, he'll tell you you suck at something, and that hurts.

Your feelings once in a while, you gotta be okay with that. But he's honest, and I love I love that.

You couldn't ask for somebody better to work for, work with, and it's usually working with when it comes to Dick. But they both tell the story of they were sitting right in that little valley there and they had to

Bill thought that.

He said, do whatever you want to, go ahead, push if that's what you think you need to do. So like two days go by and Dick comes back and here's this green pushed up to where it is right now, and he just loses it on Bill, and I just I and they both have they both do impressions of

Get over. He would still tell you that that hole is better not being pushed up. And Bill would still tell you it's better the.

Way, see the beauty of opinion. So he was by trade, he was an architect, so obviously a very creative guy. And he, you know, I imagine that helped with the relationship with Bill and Ben and giving them kind of creative freedom in a way. And would you say that he that's one of his strengths is like letting people do what they do.

Absolutely. I mean, I think Dick would make it simpler. He said it many times. Is he was really busy down here on all the cabins and stuff. And he I mean, you want to talk about somebody that's involved. He had his crew, you know, whether it was sewe or you know, all that stuff. He was doing all the infrastructure work, and there would be several days he just trusted Ben and Bill that they were going to do the right thing most of the time.

You know that story I.

Just told you, which is why I think it's funny, and because they were just.

Pissed off at each other and I think that's great. But he allowed them to do their job.

And but he was involved, you know, they you know, they had a lot of conversations for a long long time.

And Dick tells a great story that he was just at. I don't know if it was, uh, Golf Weeks or whatever.

They had a roundtable discussion where Dick was with Mike Kaiser and Ben and Bill, and they had this question come up to Bill Kohor and and like this lady asked this question, like, hey, it must have been so much fun building you know, your time into sand Hills, and Bill's like, wasn't that much fun?

You know?

And I think that's a great analogy of they all knew it was very important to everybody involved that they got it right. And I think that shows with the with the golf course. I can brag about it because I don't have anything to do with any of that. But they all respected each other an awful lot, and they.

Allowed each other to be creative and have creative thoughts. And I think the product shows, you know, they were they didn't want to mess it up, you know, everybody everybody involved, you know, Dick included.

And I think I think they got it right and I think they had pretty good Ji.

I don't have many complaints. I don't think they really messed it up. And people probably known in a lot, so it's me too. It's ironic that we're here the same week that they're playing at Liberty National that costs two hundred and fifty million to build, compared to of course, that costs less than a million to build here. In terms of Bill and Ben, how how much are they

Man humble bragg like I like Bill will send me like emojis and stuff.

So I think we're kind of friends.

Yea friend zone.

No, it's I talked to Bill when I try not to bother. Bill is busy.

He travels hundreds of days of years, undred nice, I said, years, nice English. I try not to be a bother. He hears more from me. In the spring of the fall, and we're actually doing some work on the golf course. Ben and Bill were both out here for a week

This edge of this you know, we just try to have a conversation. Then the next day we you know, kind of sit down and well, let's go back to that spot and let's go look at that again. And I don't know if I agree with's what you're doing, you know, you know, we'll just hash it out. So i'd say, Bills here probably every other year. Ben's here once or twice a year. So I'm and I you know, Ben being an Austin golf club.

I know Ben really really well. I have no problem you know, approaching him. If I have any questions, we'll just talk about it. But you know, when it comes to the golf course stuff, you know, I really don't want to bother Ben.

He's he's super busy, so I'll just either.

Call Bill or we'll send some text back and forth. And we just want their intent to be right, you know, we just want the golf course to play exactly how they intended it.

So, so you've worked closely with these guys for your basically career.

Very very fortunate, lucky, very lucky. I'm okay, Well, saying.

That, what would you say that each of them, what's there each of their best traits and like what makes them so great.

I aspire to be as good a person as both of those guys are. They're just great people. I've seen Ben and Austin where he's like a rock star in Austin and he could go to I've been in a car with them at a gas station and somebody will just come up knocking on the.

Door and hey, Ben, you know remember that time.

I'm ten years ago and like, what the hell is going on here? And he's such a great person, and like he always remembers everybody's he's he has an uncanny knack to always remember people's names and faces that he's met. And he's wonderful at engaging people. Bill is just straightforward. I mean, Bill is also a great guy. He just Bill has no problem saying he didn't like something, or he wants to change something, or why don't.

We try this? And he is he's very creative.

He always he always takes his time to think out what he's like.

He's not he's not impulsive. He's very methodical. Like if he says I don't like the corner of.

That bunker, that's not because he just walked up there and said, yeah, I don't like that. He looked at it. He thought about it, probably went to bed. Like if I tell somebody like, oh yeah, I'll think about that, Like I forget about it.

I don't think about it.

Like I think Bill thinks about it all the way until he comes back and talks to you again.

That he's thinking about it.

Yeah, No, I do that all the time. Dix like that too.

He's when if he says he's thinking about something, he's definitely thinking about it. I kind of that's my get out of, you know, the way conversation piece.

So I don't know if I answer that question properly. But they're both. I talked to you guys a little bit earlier. They worked so well together.

I spent some time with him, you know together, and I was giving him a hard time because they just they have a lot of the same mannerisms, Like they are. They work so well together, Like you can just tell their they just really trust and admire each other. And that's pretty impressive. When you can be, you know, confident that the person next to you has your best interest, you know, you can you can be honest.

You know, I'm fortunate.

You know, my old assistant, he's the superintendent, Bally Meal now is we we had that, and you know, we could just say, man, I think your idea fucking sucks or whatever it is, you know, and uh, that makes

So it's you got to have somebody that's honest with you, like I get. I get emails from listeners and readers all the time that are like, I don't want to be an asshole, A you suck. And it's like I like that, and it's the best thing because I don't even know I say, like I used to always say something about like it's interesting or something, and like some guy like was like, you say this all the time, and I try and get better. I never thought I'd

You got to be, you know, and if we want to turn that full circle back to like Dick young Stamp's not afraid to tell you you suck and if you're there needs to be more of that. And I don't care what business you're in life, in life, just somebody that's like, hey, how about you not do that? And as a young guy, there were several times I

I feel like they just you can't be sensitive because you get there's they're at every club, every course, there's the the vocal ten percent minority who are just gonna be mad about anything because they stink at golf and they just don't get it and they're just mad about stinking at golf, so they then take it out on the course.

Or I agree, you just you have to. I mean, I'm not saying anything that's new. You have to have a thick skin to be a superintendent, but you also gotta be okay with somebody like there's probably probably have some good ideas once in a while that you're just not listening to anybody.

You gotta be.

Okay with somebody's thinking you suck. I hope, I hope your boss is okay saying you suck more than once. I'm I know Dick would say I'll suck right now. If I was doing he might say I sucked at this.

Yeah, if you'll.

Listen to it, it's uh, yeah, you got it. Every everybody stinks in someone. Yeah, and my my.

Whole the I'm terrible at a lot of things.

My whole theory and life as everybody's an idiot.

I like that.

And you know, you're genius in some aspect of life, but an idiot and another. And if you don't embrace the fact that you're an idiot in some way, like I'm an idiot. If I have to plan anything, people are gonna hate me.

I respect that.

I like that. But so what would be like if if for other superintendent or like a Greens committee, sure say you weren't at of course that.

Had it's nice.

What would be your advice to like Greens committees or superintendents or any members like in working with an architect like overtime, and like you know, what would what would you say?

Is like important thing. I've already told you. I'm an architecture dork, nerd whatever you want to call it.

I love that stuff. I don't think I'm an architect that's I never had those aspirations, but I've given some talks I would love. I love the conversation of I think it's very interesting. And I'm gonna steer at one one all go back and answer your question.

I talk a lot. I don't think superintendent's a play enough golf, and I don't think that they know enough about architecture. There's there's some there's like Sean Totally at the Metal Club.

That guy is, oh my god, he knows everything about everything in architecture. But it'll only make you a better superintendent if you know some You just have to know the basics.

You don't have to you know.

And I challenge guys that, And it's so cheap you just get a few books or you know, even if you're at just the little course down the road, like pick up the phone.

I really challenge.

People to, like, why haven't you seen you live in Chicago and you've never seen short acres or like make them turn you away, like you know, the easiest way. Maybe maybe I shouldn't say this is called the superintendent. They're usually gonna be okay, maybe you're not gonna play golf,

I love I'll go to I love golf. I love going on the.

Golf courses and seeing what other people are doing. And I feel very, very fortunate to get to do that. I wish more people did more of that, just to just to immerse themselves. And some of them just have a little working knowledge in golf architecture. I think as a superintendent is a very cheap and effective way to become a little bit better superintendent.

You knowing the intent a little bit, and you don't have to be at a Donald Ross or a Core French Shaw you could.

I mean, I think every place had an architect one way, shape or form outside of.

The old course, see what they're.

Trying to think and maybe you can, maybe you can make some suggestions that play the way you know, or call that architect up if he's still alive, or you know, or get there's so many young, aspiring, great young architect guys out there. The Riley Johns, the Blake Conans, the Keiths, ReBs, all the the Rob Collins. All these guys are so talented and it's such a like Superintendent's bitch about the market being.

Tough for us, Like, wow, try to be a golf architect. Those guys are so talented.

You could just call one of those guys up and they come out, they probably for little to nothing, and walk around, say hey, why don't you just what about this? And if that's what you want to do, now shift into a greens committee. If you're at a place that has a great old architect, I think you should reach out to somebody if the guy, if if the architects alive, let's get him involved. If he's not, you know, they're like Jeff meant, there's so many of these guys that

No, that's a good answer.

It bothers me that that we would like to just put the blinders on and not not a not play golf and be not be worried about how the golf course is supposed to play.

And it's some generalization.

Obviously, there's some really really good guys that do really really great things.

M H. I put together a list of books. I think that's a great thing.

But that's a smart idea.

I had a reader who is a librarian and informed me that that ninety percent of the books that I had on that list were available at your local library. Really, so you could just go to a public library. You don't even have to pay for the books. You could just.

And I've seen just.

More like like every course, especially if it's some every course has some golf dork guys that you or me or whoever that is more.

Than happy to like, Hey, yeah, here you go. Why don't you borrow these books and go read them and give them back to me.

You know, I think some people think I'm a menace because I just.

Run around.

Screen.

I respect that.

Some powering menace menice to golf courses. So how many how many core Crunchhaw courses have you played?

Oh? My goodness, Austin Golf Club. Obviously sand Hills, the Warren Course, it's a good one. Sand Valley Friars said what.

Are your top three core Crunch courses.

Can't put sand Hills in there because I'm biased. We'll just I've played. I'm just trying to think. I'm man.

I'm not very smart anymore, Friar said, is really really impressive. I've not got to see Eastampton or that's really really good. I would love to see Old Sandwich. I just have never got up there. The place looks amazing from the pictures i've seen. Sand Valley's really good. Yeah, I played that last fall.

Man, is that good?

It's really good, really good. Austin Golf Club's fun, Roston Golf clubs. Really it's hard, but it's it's probably the only in Ben and billkindsfut. That's probably the only corner Crunshaw that's a little bit more Ben than Bill, you know, because Ben's there all the time, and it's it has a different, different feeling look than you are.

The ones that I've seen. I was at Seminole this winter.

It was fortunate enough to go there and seeing what they're doing there, that's gonna be pretty amazing. I've not been to Pinehurst number two since they've redone.

All that stuff.

I'd love to get and see that there's so much golf coming out. I'm I'm hopefully gonna go see something.

I get some moisture, have clubs, will travel.

I love love. I've not been a it looks cool, I know, you know that was one of the first they did that.

Before they did this, I played the cliff the crnch Eyed Cringe Shaw cliff Side. That's a mouthful at Barton Creek And that's a cool little spot too.

Do you have a pet peeve going.

To some great golf course and just just not maintained the way that even marginally maintained the way it needs to be where there's just no shots are available, Like, oh man, that would be such a fun shot if that was you can get that shot.

I played the course I played before I came here. I had we had a US four ball qualifier at and it's like they have a huge maintenance budget. But it's a it's like the complete opposite.

Golfs are up here.

It's a and the guy he designed the course himself. It's a disaster. But then like you couple it with like it hasn't rained in Chicago like at all, so it's like the greens are really firm, but the fringes an eight prints are so soft because he needs it has to be lush and green.

That is a tough That might be the toughest mix to play is super firm greens and everything else is soft.

I mean, that is it's a disaster.

That is so hard to play. That is so hard. That's maybe that's what the USGA needs to do. That is really hard to play.

What do you think this score would be out here if you had a PGA Tour events.

If it's windy like today, then who knows.

But if it's I just played as a kid a couple of days ago that he shot even par My good friend Jared Kline, who's that bally Neil is a really good player, and I played with them. He shot sixty six out of here from the tips, so I think they It just depends, you know. I mean I played it Ben out here more than one time, and it's not like he took it super low. Of course, records sixty one, so yeah, but that was on a dead calm day. It's there for the taking if you

The ball so far.

You're like, like every golf course is inadequate anymore.

It's it's sad. It's it's unfortunate.

It just goes so straight too. It's not just the far, it's like the ball doesn't curve, and especially with a course that built for wind, when the ball doesn't spin, like you lose some of it the defense.

It'd be fun to watch them when on a daylight today, when they're out there, and I would enjoy watching a bunch of tour pros go out and knock it around, see what shots, because they can hit those shots. I would just love to watch them hit it.

I had it going for a while and then the wind just just beat the crap out of me down.

It's off when the wind like will dictate how your ball breaks, you know, because I'm not a good enough putter. Anyways, and when you got you know, two or three breaks, and that the wind will put like I'm not making that, but.

The way the course goes the whole back nine, it goes out and then it comes right back and with that south wind, it is cross all in. Crosswind is just south of this hard. It's just the hardest wind to play because you're constantly uncomfortable, you're not sure. It affects your distance and your dispersion, which is like you know, like if it's into the wind, a good player knows how far the ball's going to go. If it's downwind, you generally know pretty much how far the ball is

I think, Well, and the wind will you know this time ere doesn't change a lot.

But in the summer you'll get.

Two winds a lot, like you'll get a morning wind and it'll come out of the south and then maybe it comes out of the north of the west, and you'll.

I mean that's two different I mean it you guys have been on here now.

That affects play a lot and how you're gonna attack and what shots you're forced to hit, And I think that's that's a mark of a good golf course. I think for one, obviously I'm a homer to my own golf course, but it's uh, I've had a lot of fun hitting those shots and seeing what what does want?

So what's your favorite course outside of sand Hills?

Man? That is? I've been very fortunate to play some awesome courses.

Humble Bragg, National, I mean, Ben and Bill will will tell you you got to go to see National. I mean I've I've bet I'm the guy just yapping at their tails all the time asking them all these tom golf architecture questions and they like, you got to go see it.

And I've been.

Fortunate enough to play it. It's wonderful.

Cypress Point is really really good.

Really, I was impressed by how good the inland holes were at Cyprus.

It's really good. Shintacock's really good, man, I thought, Seminole when when Ben and Bill get done with that, stuff is going to be really really good too. Yeah.

I'm just I'm just gonna like list all the really cool courses I've been on.

What's your what's your what's your favorite hidden gem then, like one that doesn't get talked about enough. It should be. It could be something around here too.

I don't think people I don't think people play wild Horse enough. I think wild Horse is such a world class golf course and it's cost you.

Nothing and it's under fifty bucks.

Right, it's like just out of the cusp of me playing there like every single day because it's like an hour and a half for me to get there, which is just like a half hour more than it needs to be. Josh, Josh Mayris was superintendent. It wasn't assistant out here for a long time, well not a long time, a few years, and then he's been there since day one. And it's a really smart golf course and it's always in great shit.

It's always firm and.

Fast, and it's you can go and with your buddies and you're not going to spend one hundred bucks. And I think we need more of that golf, you know, and the country. I don't care where you're at. It's just it's wonderful. He's They ought to have a statue of that guy up there. I mean, he's just a good superintendent. Is can make or break a golf course like that, and that place has been so good for so long, it's wonderful. Another one is like cow Club

It was just, you know, it was you were hitting all the shots you were supposed to hit. Not everybody talks about it. When you go to that San Francisco area. And you know.

Jeff's Minge who you mentioned earlier, you know, he says that Avy McCann might have been the greatest golf course architecture that nobody knows about because he was just building courses up in the Pacific Northwest.

Well, I went to I was fortunate enough to go to Seattle this year. I talked to a bunch of the Western Washington guys I'd never really been up there before, and talked to some market about and we went to Chambers, which I thought was really good.

It was a terrible logo, but a great golf course.

I thought, you gotta go to that Loan Tree.

Yeah, it's something. I mean. I love golf. I love logos. I'm a logo.

Do I send you my logo rankings. Let's see, I gotta form you gotta fill it out. I'm all in submissions.

I have kids will just bring me stuff because I love that stuff. Anyways, and we talked about McCain and and I love all that stuff, like especially something I've never seen, like, holy cow, let's go look at that little place and let's go. It'd be cool to see more and more of that. I never get up there enough. I think that part of the country is wonderful and I just need to see more of it.

You're right.

I think one of the issues with McCann up there is that there's a big tree problem. Tree management programs up there are like planting trees. Oh, who is that? Most of the time the fans in check in on he think he got? Is the number confused with the cheesecake factory?

Like that?

I can't take credit. That's Zach Claire's.

That's funny.

Got a funny story there. That's another story for another day. So the legend out here, like you know, it's not a legend. You see it in here. One hundred and eighty holes they found on this massive piece of property that's actually a small piece of property via Sandhills standards. He has there ever been thought about, you know, building more.

I think they entertained it a lot early on.

You know, I just you know, they were still just trying to figure out how it was all going to work, you know. You know, they really just thought they were just going to build this golf course.

For their buddies, and I was going to be it. They didn't have any aspirations. I think Ben and Bill did, but I don't think Dick that it was going to be this world phenomenon. Yeah, my words not.

But they they've thought about it. You know when you look at that consolation maps that's just up in the dining room, and I look at it a lot. I know that sounds super dorky, but it's I still believe. I mean I've if i'd have like one, I haven't a pocket.

I have like a hundred of them. So yeah, I've taken it off in photocopy. Yes, I've done that.

Anyways, you know, they they it was it's a lot when you start, it's like, how do you get it all the fit together? Yeah, they you know, from what Ben and Bill and Dick have all said, it was always based on the principle that it wasn't always going to be one seventeen and eighteen. We're going to be actually one seven, but those three holes, it was all like those were always going to be there, no matter what.

That way was some that they really liked. And and and then there's a great story of where twelve is. You know, you know, they walk this property for year.

I know I heard that Bill actually camped on the property. Is that true or I.

Cannot I cannot confirm nor deny that. I haven't heard that he camped out here. I mean, I think they were drinking plenty of corps lights and stuff.

It might have been.

Unintentional, but I can't confirm or deny that either. But a great story that I don't that a lot of people know out here, that I think is always really interesting is eighty seven hundred acres, which is a pretty small parcel land out here. They're walking, and they've been walking, and they've they're where twelve Green is right over our thirteen thirteen Green and then twelve and there's that little maintenance path that goes between them that used to be

He's like, you got eighty seven hundred we need.

So they had to do this handshake deal where they had to reroute this parcel and you know, Going, it's a great story because Dick tells it talking to Going and I'll get the guy's name, Ron, whoever owned the parcel land there.

It was like, yeah, can we just you know, He's like, you want to do what you know?

Like it's just not even fathomable to a rancher, like you just want to move that fence there for one hundred acres, Like what.

The hell are we doing here?

Yeah?

You know, but that gave us twelve fourteen fifteen. Yeah, and I don't think anybody fourteen I think.

Is my favorite hole out here. I just I really like fourteen a lot.

I think it's a spectacular whole. It's especially with this south wind because it's impossible to hit the ball down the west side today.

But don't hit it in those bunkers either. That's what I think is so great.

Like you get rewarded if you hit it left, but yeah, you get killed if you hit it too far left.

And you can I play with guys.

Where you just tap in Birdie and no problem and other guys where you get up there and you may double because like green is you know, it's tiny, it's just tiny, and it's just you know, I'm a I'm a fanboy obviously.

How many green can't be more than three thousand squares. Yeah, it's this.

Time of the year.

You know, we don't fertilize really at all in relative terms.

So I mean, you guys can see all those little plugs and stuff. This time of year. It's pretty thin out there, so there's not a lot of playable, pinnable locations on fourteen.

Yeah, it's it's a it's a I mean, either of way, either side.

You put it. It's tough. It's it's tough.

Just play just play it up like next to the left, yes, and then then you have many options. But if you go right in front of that stuff on the right, that's a tough shot. I was just playing with somebody yes two days ago, and they hit it over the green and everything on top of the hill there because they just scald one and like double bogie, here we go.

It's the best, I mean, and entice it. It's so short, it's a short part five, and it's so short that it entices it you feel like you have to go for it. And that's I think that's one of the things that golf courses mess up so much, is like, if you have a short part five, just like, let people try and go for it, because they're probably gonna get themselves in all kinds of trouble.

That's a really smart way to say it. I have stood so many times on that little hill, you know, not down the swale, which I think is really you get really rewarded if you hit it down there, and it's like, hey, just hit your six irond right there and don't worry about.

We're only two hundred out. I can get there. I'm like, i've seen you play.

You're not hitting it into that little tiny spot just like you're gonna make berdie if you hit just a nice shot right there and be done with it. And they hit a nice bunk ground they make double bogie and you know, all right, here we go.

And I've done that plenty of times.

So you want to do some overrated, underrated Sure, you're the overrated underrated guy. Yeah. Ocean front holes, I.

Think they're properly they're pretty like it's be hard to stand on fifteen to pick one.

You can't pick properly raised.

Ryan Silva, I think said properly Raydon, I'm it was.

All right.

I get no pass overrated because it doesn't make it great golf all it is awesome. If there's a great golf holl and there's ocean there, it's really cool. Like I said, it'd be hard to say, you're on fifteen at Cyprus and you don't go, holy shit, this is awesome. You don't get that here at all?

Have you? Have you played dismal river? I hear there's just bad No.

I don't think there's any black But I got here eleven years ago, the original ownership, and it was a little bit of a difficult situation. But in you know, I'll give Dick all the credit in the world. We you know, all our employees are from Mullen. You know, they live in Mullen. They're part of Mullen or part of the community. You know, my crew in the summer is twenty two and they're high school and college kids

The community takes care of us, and we do our best to try to take care of the community as much as we can. And I think originally that wasn't necessarily dismal Rivers. And I'm not The current ownership, I think is doing great things and I think they will be nothing but successful, and I wish them nothing but the best. I played both those courses a bunch. I think I'm an architecture guy. I don't love.

I don't love the White course, the Nicolas course. It's a little you know, talk about we talked about punch bowls. There's a bunch of punch balls there.

And it's it's just not my cup of tea.

You can see a lot of heart where they pushed it's it could be really hard, really really hard.

Bunkers pushed down the left sides of greens.

Yeah, And it's just And I'm, like I said, I'm not trying to get I wish we're not in like everybody wants to say, we're in some type of competition, like we have no desire to see them do anything but successful things over myself included, and their Superintendent Mark Stencil has been there for a long time and they do the best they can of what they got.

And I like the Doe course.

The Dope courses a little interesting in a couple of spots where you know, it kind of goes across the road and stuff like that, and I'm not certainly not discrediting it, but I mean, I'd rather go.

Play ballyt Neil, you know. That's that's my opinion though.

That's we're going there, and Ballet.

Neil is wonderful, really really good, really good.

What's your who's your favorite Golden Age architect?

Oh, I'm such a I like the mc you know, McDonald rayner stuff, you know, but I'm probably my eye is probably more drawn to the mackenzie stuff, you know, really way out on the limb of the fringes of the like two most common guys. Those guys, those three guys are awesome. But I was gifted that Simpson book this.

Last I gotta read that.

Oh my gosh, those drop like I've never s like they're in. They're enchanting. I feel like a little kid, like you're like, I'm just looking at.

The pictures just like, oh my gosh, look at this thing looks pretty amazing. I just need to see more stuff.

I think, uh overrated, underrated playing with five clubs or less.

Oh man, totally underrated because I don't play. I only play with nine clubs regularly. Really, yeah, the nine driver utility would I'd have to I don't even know how account putter one wedge and then.

You only use one wedge.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not good enough to hit like. It's just better if I just leave mynd by that lofted high lofted wedge in my shop. So then I don't even try to hit it. Just hit my punch and run shot or buttter and I'm good.

That's mentally, and that's that's that's not that's.

Probably because I'm just not good enough to hit it in So I like guys that are I've I have played golf with Bill Coohr and Dan Proctor and they each took like three clubs when I was like twenty years old, when we were playing Austin Golf Club and it wasn't even open and they just kicked my ass and I had.

A full set club. So I was like, man, I gotta get a lot better at golf than this, That's what I tell So I think people hit you gotta hit shots in that way. I love to watch. I love watching people be creative and hit shots, which is why I like being at Santos.

I love watching guys hit fun, cool shots. And I think the less clubs you have, the more inclined yard are like, well if.

I just pinch this down and see what happens.

So do you have like a spot where you watch golf from all the time nobody knows that you're watching.

Oh yeah, I have several spots that I enjoy. We this is no secret.

We sit at the porch a lot and take bets on how bad people will make, how bad your miss putts on nine all the time. Nine is like the most difficult green to read on the golf course.

It's something so hard they can't.

I kit that is a hard golf hole. I love.

I love that golf hole. But man, that whole kicks my ass all the time. So we will just be like, we'll sit there for you had a lot of fun when you're busy and just like, oh god, this guy's not he thinks he's getting it up and down.

That ain't happening.

So's and then uh, it helps you we have a beer or something on hand, so yeah, or a great goose or whatever float you both, is it. They don't have any events here really, No.

We we have one tournament our remember remember, which is our big deal and it's a Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

And it's only been six.

Five six years that we've done it and it's been really good for Like, it was always interesting because I know ninety six per seven percent of the members on a first name basis, and like the staff knew everything, Like I'm the least ten yared of.

All the managers. I've been here eleven years, you know, quite a bit.

And it was always interesting like how they didn't you know, like members wouldn't necessarily interact with each other because they just didn't know. You know, you can come out, you can bring seven seven people with you, and the like, what are the chances that you know who the member is?

You know, there'd be a few, but not a lot because these people are spread out all over the country and the world, And what the member member did is really build a lot stronger bond. People knew who they were, and it's been really fun to watch these guys. You know, build friendships that you could kind of see, like you're like, oh, I could tell that guy and that guy'd be friends and whether they're you know, Minneapolis or New York or Austin,

So it was fun to go watch a bunch of junior players going half fun and watch them go Holy Callalyst is pretty cool that they get to come out here and we're fortunate to have them out, so that was cool. Do we do some more of that?

Probably? I don't know.

M that's a yeah.

It's it'd be fun to host like a Walker Cup, I would. I mean, I love the Walker Cup. I think I've been fortunate to was at you know, the Walker Cup at National and at Chicago Golf, and I.

Think that's just such a cool, cool event.

Like they get it like every you're walking with everybody.

That's that's pretty cool.

That would be pretty awesome.

That'd be fun. I don't know if we can do it logistic.

Not that anybody is approaches or anything, but I mean it, I don't know if we can do it logistically, but it'd be fun.

I mean, you could house the players and officials and then let everybody else fend for themselves.

I don't I don't make those kinds of decisions. It'd be fun for me.

I make them in my mind all the time. So right, we've made You got my vote? I like it, and I have I've got zero votes. So well, uh, let's say last last one? Overrated underrated corn Husker football.

Oh man, it's so overrated.

I'm a Michigan State Spartan, so the I will say that because I'm very, very fortunate to call them all in my home, and these people have been wonderful to me and my family. They know they've taken us in as part of their family since my wife, Ashley, and I moved there it'll be eleven years in January, and they tolerate our spartan fandom, you know, like when we went to the Rose Ball.

I mean I I cried.

I cried, and I had so many phone calls from friends and people that were just excited that they were excited to watch. You know, that's how that's that's Nebraska, and I feel very very fortunate to call.

Us place home. So I that's just me get them ship.

I hope they get there. They hope they get it figured out. They're passionate. It's a great place to watch a football game. You can go as an opposing fan and you're not going to get in a fight or anything like that. And if you haven't been, you should go. I'm a huge college football fan. Cool place to watch a game, and they're they're good people. But I think they lack some offensive line play right now, and their defense a little slow, and it's I think it's gonna be a.

Long I hate to hear what you have to say about my line. I then, because I.

Didn't watch the game to watch, we had a Mullen Bronco football game, so I had to be there for that.

So but I'm not I think Illinois, you guys will figure it out.

We got it's a it's a process. We got to dig out.

You guys always like come up with like a really good team.

Like every team.

With Mendenhall that was they were good and then you see gone terrible again.

For we should never have fire grounds back. And I can't believe that's like, what ive?

What about? How is your basketball gun?

No, we're not ain't good and we're good at golf.

That I like that.

Yeah, so I like that. But thanks for coming on, man.

Thanks for having me. And it was it was fun. I was a little nervous that. I hope I don't sound like too much of an idiot.

No, it sounds sorry. I'm the one that say idiot.

It was an honor idiot. Yeah, you guys can go out and play more golf. Yeah, I won't hold you.

Well, we'll do it again. We'll get ye talk architecture more.

Please. I appreciate that, all right. Thanks Thanks

Naming Astern to many a stage