Kyle Franz - Part 2

Egg dot com. And enough of me. Here's Part two of the Kyle Franz Pod.

it's just a great sturdy course. You just really can't argue with it as being one of the best courses

in the world. And then to the complete opposite end of the spectrum you've got, you know, North Berrick is just down the road, which you know, I I would say most of my architectural friends, you know, people that I work with, people like Gil and Tom and uh Bill, you know, they all my friends, I think to a man, would would rank North Berrick among their favorite courses because you get just so much weird, fun, crazy British architecture.

You know, it's great coastline, it's a beautiful place. But where else do you get to play, you know, a whole like like the same as pit where you know you're batting your ball out in the fairway and tend to stop it on a green right behind a rock wall. You know, you get to you get all the quirk value that uh that you can get a great links golf course architecture over there and in in one one setting there and then there's a lot of you know,

like great secondary courses there. You know, obviously Golan's a great old classic. A couple of courses there, you know, luffness, uh, you know, great great architecture. Dunbar just down the road is a really good course that kind of flies under the radar you when to talk about you know, under the radar stuff. That's a pretty cool place. And you know I've always that's that would be the one market that I would love to personally, you know, jump into

as as a restoration architect. Uh is stuff over there. You know, I spent my year overseas studying golf courses over there, and uh, that was the thing that I always kind of thought about it, So go to places. How much fun it would be the consult at a at a place like that Dunbar or phraser Bor what have you that uh, you know, with just a little help on waterhole here, one hole there, one hole there, you could do so you can turn one of those

call courses into something really, really amazing. They already are really really good golf courses. But you know, it would come as no surprise having worked on you know, uh, the likes of Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle uh as I started my career, and then having spent all the time overseas in the UK, I'm a huge fan of links architecture, so it would be fun to work on some of

those kinds of places over there, you know. And obviously the financials of clubs are so different from the United States that you know, uh, it requires somebody being really patient and working with a club over a span of probably two decades actually get it where they wanted to go. But it's not like, you know, they have the financials to do a massive you know, restoration or what have you, you know, summertime like we do here. So that's where

you know, you know, mid Pins we did. You know, we did the project essentially in house, with a bunch of shapers and finishing guys that I brought in. No contractors, et cetera. You know, so I've always kind of been having worked on this projects for Tom and Bill and Ben, you know, Pacific Dunes, there was no contract or whatsoever. I've always kind of trying and build my business model that I could potentially do, you know, projects kind of

kind of like that someday. But that's really my favorite favorite region of the country is is there. It's all good. I mean I have a hard time saying that over some of the places we mentioned earlier with Dornick and Brora and and Taine and Gulspy up north.

kind of flattened out. It was something very bland and it was not really indicative of of what it was laid out to be. You know a lot of those craziest greens over in the UK where it's just something where it was on the ground that's what worked. And they started bowing it there, you know, uh and uh.

And it had been kind of changed over time. You know a lot of you know, bunker missing here, bunker missing there, or you know a lot of the times you know, it's just as simple of moving a fairway around a little bit, you know, just mowing another ten yards to the right, moving in you know, ten yards from the left where it is being mown a fair way, or expanding them back out and narrowing them down in

the right place. It's just you know, simple sort of simple sort of stuff, but in the end it ends up making all the difference kind of in the world a lot of the time. So and also, you know, in terms of bunker style, you know, there's a place in southern England. I was just looking out on the internet a couple of months ago there was an old back to the previous architect that we talked about, Colt. It was a course that he had done on the coast that was on more uplan dy sort of ground.

It wasn't sand dunes and a Lynks golf course, but more of like uplan dy sort of terrain with big sort of like pebble beachy sort of cliffs, and you know, the bunkers had all been kind of turned into uh more like simplified renditions of of what there was originally

supposed to look like. You know, obviously for anybody that kind of knows Cold's history built some really impressive bunkers, really flashy and uh visually attractive stuff, and that stuff had just been kind of white out on the golf course over the span of you know, one hundred years. So that's probably the main thing is, you know, restoring bunker style, which is something that just doesn't really happen over there, and I mean something has happened in the

last ten years or so. But I think if if somebody had a really great restoration like stay in London, one of those great old you know, coult courses, I think it would probably break down the door to doing a lot more all over the city in the region. And that's the same. The same holds true for the for the coastline in Britain.

and blossoming conversation over there where. It's something we've obviously been working very hard on in the States for the last you know, ten and fifteen years years almost thirty in some cases.

Ten years ago, I guess. And then you know, I've been to I've been to a couple of Bill and Ben's projects in the desert, and uh, I think that I think those projects were all great. We've got some really cool stuff at Stone Eagle, and I know that

Yllan Ben built some great stuff there. But I think that's probably the one little missing link is that I would love to see more palms or sorry, Pineer's number two, Saint Andrewsy's sort of contouring, uh and even to agree, like like prairie dunes where you get some really really good, interesting kind of shot making and recovery shots aground with the greens, you know, tipmo and a lot of interesting fun kind of shots and uh stuff that almost like

kind of forces you to play ground shots. You know. Hard thing with uh with building cool architecture in the desert is a requires quite a bit of water obviously, and be the turf types that you're gonna have are always going to be not particularly prone to good ground game architecture, which, of course is you know, when we're talking about Bill and Ben and and and and uh Tom and Gil, that's the one thing that I probably should have started worth instead of uh ending with is

they're all committed to building great, classical cool ground game architecture. And that's something that I'm always trying to push and uh, but it's hard to do with warm season grasses because it's so bushy and uh you know, so green and uh and lush. You know, uh, so I think you'd almost want to like over designed features, uh, you know, on projects there and you know more Falloway greens, just lots of cool st to really get it to where uh you know, people want to try some really fun

interesting you know ground shots and and recovery shots. It's it's it's harder harder to uh harder to do than to just say it, you know. I think one of the things in the real Olympics golf course that certainly was the biggest challenge was trying to get players to play ground shots and warm season grasses because the balls of them or like the bounce that much. In some

places we were successful with it. In other ways, uh, probably not as much as I would have liked to have seen it, But uh, you know, I think I think it's the key is is just how severe your building features and how really how really dedicated are to really really building stuff that really forces people to hit hit some cool crazy shots like uh like you do in different settings.

for average players. You know, there's a very few kinds of holes in the world these days that'll make professional level players thinking about, you know, hitting balls on the on the ground and bouncing around some you know, obviously, you know, the road hole in Saint Andrews is still the timeless example of that. But even see a degree in a hole like you know number five at Augusta.

You know, if the players hit into the rough on the right hand side of that hole, they'll start thinking about trying to hit the little skipper shot up onto that little Saint Andrew's inspired ridgeline green because the you know, the hazards off the backside of the green are so severe, and they'll try and they'll try and bounce it up.

You know. I think oakmant is great for that and the fact that you have so many fall away greens, and in some cases of the greens are so severely falling away from the players, you know, front to back sloped greens that the players will are almost inevitably have to give it a go like a whole, Like you know, twelve at Oakmont, players have no choice if you're going for that green, and so you have to think about how it's going to bounce onto that green and even

the third shot, so you have to at least be cognitive of the fact that the ball, even with a wedge in your hand, isn't gonna spin like it normally would, you know. So I think there's there's some interesting ways to go about skinning that cat. And you know, it's all about how you approach the overall theoretics of what you're shaping, what you're designing, and uh, you know again the paradox of scale that that we work what to

try and make architecture work wherever we are. So, but yeah, I think that would be a fun golf course to play at a desert. I would I would I would like to play that course of bit. That would be fun.

everything's sat. And but you also have to take that step back and ask the question, well why, uh, you know, I think that if you know, if you went back and and and attempted to do restoration by just simply copying pasting, you know, uh, painting by painting by number,

you kind of miss uh that original intent. You know, the game has evolved and changed so much that bunkers will never only wind up in the wrong spot, or if if you're not seeing the whole big picture very clearly, you'll kind of miss the uh, the the end all of what the original hole is trying to do. You know,

obviously we're talking about mid pints. Earlier, we were talking about you know, Ross's intent with the styling of the holes, and I think the thing that uh, you know, as I alluded to, he try to make each of his golf courses here a little bit different, uh. And the best way I can describe the importance of of of really really studying the original design is the differences and

courses you know here here in Pinehurst. You know, Piner's number two was supposed to have big wide fairways, fifty yard wide fairways, and then on the outside of the holes you had an extra buffer of another twenty to twenty five yards before you got to the edge of the clearing line into the trees. So it was big, big wide corridors and big wide fairways, and then he had these big long runs of seeing in the famous sandy hardpan areas on the eats on each side of

the hole and midpines. His design philosophy was completely different. The fairways were big and wide like Piner's Number two, but he for the most part kind of excluded a lot of those sandy hardpan areas on the edges of each hole. Instead of of having that buffer, it just went right into the woods. In the trees, you'd have a little bit of sandy hardpan of wiregrass, but mostly the holes just kind of went right into the woods. And in between the holes it was very dense, thick,

bushy terrain. It would be wiregrass and wisteria and all kinds of who knows what else was you know, growing

out in the southern jungles of North Carolina. So the the idea was that, you know, Piner Number two was meant to be a little bit more of a resort friendly golf course where it was a bigger wire the players could find their ball and playing on where Midponds was meant to be kind of this very very intimate setting, you know, hard golf course with the with the tighter clearing lines and uh, the design evolved further from number two in that in that category, you know, it has

more Midpinds has more bunkers front right and front left of the green compared to number two, where most of the holes have quite a bit of bunkering. But there are actually some holes where there's a whole bail side. You know, the first two holes at Pine Re Simber two you can bail completely away into short type areas, away from all the bunkering around the greens, whereas Mid there wasn't two holes like that in the entire golf course.

So the idea was that, you know, players could hit t shots into the right sections of fairways and give themselves good angles past all these front bunkers. You know, if the pin was front lest, they could play into the far right hand side of the fairway for a decent angle. Vice versa, the pin was front right, they

could play to the other side. But to hit it to the good angles the honey spots on each hole for a good angle win you had to take on, you know, all that brush and all the nasty stuff that was lapping right at the edge of the fairways as I was alluding to before. So there was you know, to get to the good angles and strategize for a good player on the t shots. They had to they had to take on some some nasty stuff. They were kind of taking their life in their own hands. Again,

just differences in philosophy. So when I was working on Midpinds this restoration, all that junglely stuff around the edge of the holes had been removed over the decades to make it more resort from all the trees were still there, so the general philosophy of the course still still kind of held through to the original design. So a lot of what I had to do was, you know, just kind of stand on the teas and visualize, well, all that stuff has gone now, but the trees are still there.

But again it feels a lot is a lot less in the way of blood pumping through or die field of the t shots that originally was intended. So what do we need to add to the equation, How do we need to approach adding bunker here or maybe bring the sandy hardpain areas into the holes a little bit

more there. You know, it's again just trying to add or approach you know, the restoration of the strategic hazards around the holes in a manner that they would balance out the fact that these other elements had been eliminated over the span of of decades, and well it was going to take to get the kind of blood pumping shots back into the equation that that Ross had originally intended. And if I was just looking down at an aerial the golf course, you'd never figure out any of that stuff.

You can't just paint by numbers and be like, well, that's what was there. So that's what we need to do. You know, you need to kind of put yourself on the head of what Ross would have been standing there looking at in nineteen thirty five and the decisions that you would have been making to to you know, lay out the holes exactly to get the blood pumping kind

of shots that he wanted. And so that's how I really, you know, approach restoration is is that you know, you got to get out on the field and you got to stand there and kind of visualize what it would have been like to have a hickory and one hundred years ago, and what do we need to do to make that all connect today? You know, So sometimes you wind up in a scenario where you know you can

just simply paint by numbers, where it's purely restoration. But also, you know, getting it to fit into work and to be appropriate for modern play requires you know, making making it just and that too is restoration. So at the end of the day, it's all the same game. Uh, you're all just you're just trying to get to where the the architecture matches up and plays as well as it did today, as it did originally, or even better.

prime examples of of great courses in that category. You know, if I if I had timis to kind of think of it, I'm sure I could think of some even right here in uh in North Carolina. I wish I could remember the name of that golf course. It'll come to me here in a secuh in Portland. Uh. But you know a lot of places you know need old places that are you know again great classic architects that

really have a lot of potential. Of the land is still very good and nobody's really kind of broken broken anything it would be fun to work at, and you know, I mean especially I think you probably would uh understand immediately just from the conversation of the day that, you know, the fact that I grew up on a public golf course, it's always made me really intrigued with with doing great public golf course restoration, you know, or just great public

golf in general. I mean that's what really, you know, intrigued me the most about working on the the Olympics course in Rio for Gill was the fact that, of course it was cool to be involved in a project where I was going to hold the Olympics and the first Olympics and over one hundred years, but it was also, I think equally is important to me that it was going to be the first public golf course in Brazil and one of the first, like great examples in South America,

a big tournament value that people could go and play. So, you know, having grown up on a public golf course, public golf is really important to me. So really, any place, uh you know that that you know has just great old bones, great architecture, would be would be fun to work on, work on, uh for a for a public benefit. Eastmoreland is the golf course I was thinking in Portland. I knew that was going to come.

on the golf course. And also, you know it's a club. But Astorias right up the road from there's a neat old dunes golf course. So you know, there's a little cool places all over the place that that it would be great to do, you know, restoration work over a span of time that would be practical for them. It's you're not gonna put him out of business. Uh, but really could you know, take him to an extra level

and and expand their you know, potential potential. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.

flies under the radar. It looks fantastic. I really need to get over and check it out sometime. And that's

that's the prime example, you know. Uh, there's there's some courses around the country that were you know, again laid out by by great architects that uh that you know, the good practical plan, you know, especially that's where the design builds philosophy comes together to to make project practical forms, you know, by removing the you know, exorbit and outside contracted costs and doing you know, projects in a practical manner.

It's it's much it's more stressful on the architects to that that way, but that's what we're here for, you know, is to get the right product for the right price. And so I really look at the next twenty years in the United States as being a you know, a

kind of watershed moment for that. You know, restoration has certainly been a great, a great development in the club club seen the last twenty and thirty years, and it's great to see that it's started to shift through to public golf in places and hopefully that that trend continues. It's some that of you know, again, having been involved or been a public golf person, my whole life would be no almostly rewarding to be evolve us.

You know, a lot of good prime examples of that, and then other architects have a tendency to just get better and better and better and better over the span of their careers, and I think Ross was definitely in the latter category. You know, his work was always good. But you know, when I look back at the the history of Piner's Number two, there's there's two things that come to mind. How great it is today and how great it's always been, but also how much it evolved.

You know, I have never seen an aerial or a ground photo of the golf course between nineteen thirty five and nineteen oh seven where it was exactly the same. He was constantly, constantly teekering with it, and the style was completely different on all of them, you know, like

the original Piner's Number two was really severe. There was like you know, I'm sure for a lot of your lists or they'd be familiar with, you know, Hell's half Acre at Pine Valley, this big famous hole in the world that you have to cross in your second shot of the seventh hole. Well, that's kind of what Pinehurst Number two was like originally. Instead of having these big, you know, clearly defined sweeping fairways that begin at the start of the hole and go all the way the play.

The last looks that we were talking about earlier. You know, he had like these big stoppages in the fairways where it would just go into like sandy hardpan and native areas for for a stretch and then it would pick back up the fairway would start again on the other side. So a lot of hills, half acrey, sorts of sort of stuff out there. It was really hard. You know, it's easy to see why his original design numbers. It

was pretty pretty controversial. And you know, I've been helping a bit on the Pinter's Number three course the last year. You know, they changed a couple of holes to kind of make way for gills par three course, and that kind of sort of evolved into you know, doing some

other work around the golf course. You know, myself and Kay Goldby and Blake Conant, all three of us kind of did a little bit of different periods of stuff on the golf course the last year, and which obviously you know, was put in my hands a lot of the time. You know, the original area for thelf aerial for his original design, and it's really very severe. You know, a lot of pine alleys kind of stuff in places

out there. Now, whether that's that's good or bad or underrated, overrated, I don't know, but it was a lot different, you know. But I think that I think his career did it take a nice, a nice turn what he decided to start doing more playable stuff that would be more attractive to to more normal people. So I think that he had really fallen in with a really nice, really nice groove with the stuff that he was designing by the twenties and and especially the you know, as you got

towards the end of his career. I think the Pineers number two is ranked his best course for a reason. You know. It's it's it's all the different little elements that he threw in his designer style throughout his career combined with the more playable elements that he kind of evolved to to arrive at his best course. But that's not to say that the the nineteen ten stuff or the earlier stuff is better or worse. Is just a little bit it's a little bit different.

cool to see. So who knows what gildos.

which is at Country Clube Charleston. Every year the holes were Dan or reverse for Dan, you know, it's uh so all the kind of classic elements of you know, diagonal green with severe back left bunkers or right and depending off it's a reverse for an or not. But in the case of Countries to Charleston, it's it's kind of a forty five degree angle green from front left to back right with these incredibly deep bunkers front right

and incredibly deep back left. It's basically it reminds me more of like a Charles Banks design hole where it's you know, one of the classic Rainer McDonald template Verdeans, but it's it's just absolutely jacked up to the maximum in terms of difficulty, and it's been a famous hole for that reason for a long time. There's been many a player in the Asia that has actually been trying to hold a lead that just laid up on it and put it up onto the green. So that severe

of a of a hole, you know. So I love any kind of any kind of green and green site where you get on a par three where you're kind of jacking it up into the air and really leaving the players with some really severe question marks if they if they miss the green, and especially the strategy involved with the whole, like uh, like what I was just describing, you know, Uh, the history of the whole is actually

kind of uh, kind of interesting. It. Uh. There's evidence that the uh that the big mounds you know, Charles's Flat, you know, there's no features naturally there, and uh, the big mounds and features on the property are rumored to go all the way back to the Revolutionary War. The British at uh when they besieged uh Charleston built like all these big things that they would you know, fortifications,

redoubts is what they were called. That it appears that that's probably what the Greenside originally was, so uh, you know, it's kind of some interesting history to uh to wind up at a very severe golf hole, you know, one hole that uh that I always kind of come back to is having been uh you know, influential in Ross's careers is the second at Dornic, which EVE heard varying degrees of the uh you know, you want to talk

about like a volcano. It falls away completely on on three sides and with a false front on the front portion of it. And you know, I've I've heard vary degrees that Ross was involved in the construction of it, you know, other under John sutherlanda Dornic, and originally he wasn't all that excited about the idea of what the

hole was going to be. Like don't quote me on that because I've just heard it in varying degrees, but that when they finished the hole, he thought it was so cool that it was like the light bulb went

off for him. And I think that one thing you see in Ross's work everywhere is is the willingness to build a green site with a really severe fall off off the back, and even going as far as to place a green site on a downslope and just pushing dirt out and out and out building bunkers and pushing it out until you finally wound up with a really severe fall off off the rear side of it. And I think that was probably very influential in his career, that that singular green site as you see that all

over the place. I Pinter's number two, whether it's you know the famous eighth Green where you know John Daly had his mill down where he hit it over the green and swattered his ball because he couldn't quite get

it back up onto the green. Rusted that all the time, and I think it comes back to you know, those kind of those kind of philosophics, you know, and what you get out of it is, you know, when you have holes of such severe fall off on the backside like that, it really does get you kind of thinking

back to basics. You know, maybe I should wind up short of this green and take that that mistake out of play, or maybe even just try and bounce it up on the green where I just barely barely run my way up onto the green, taking the aerial shot that might land on the green and go running off the backside or fly over out of play. You know. So I'm a big fan of of you know, green sites that are you know, kind of jacked up like that, and you know, having done the Rainer McDonald restoration that

that I have done. You know, I'm always going to be a sucker for the for the famous short holes. You know, some of the best ones, UH are always going to be kind of like that, you know, whether it's uh you know, like Camargo is like a great example, you know, I mean, that's about it. That's about it jacked up and the volcano issues you're ever gonna get right there with with a severity around all all four.

bunch of dirt. You know, it's obvious that they went twenty thirty yards up the ferry just started shoving dirt until they wound up with this tiny little press of a you know, volcano green on the downslope and if you go over, it runs down into this sandy bunkery native area patch behind the green. That's needless to say, no fun at all to try and get up and

down from there. You know, I've had a standing offer for anybody that I've been playing with for three years now, I guess since the restoration that anybody that gets over that green into that hazard and can get up and down free beer on Kyle. And it happened. Yet the closest was you know Pat McGowan, who is part of the family that owns the resorts here and handles a

lot of the teaching and whatnot. And he was you know, seventy seven I believe PGA to our Rookie of the year and he was as close as anybody has gotten with out. It's those kind of holes are really fun, you know when you finally make a birdie on a

whole like that. Uh, that's something you talk about. Uh, that's that's the kind of stuff that you remember at the end of the year, uh uh, no matter what, and the kind of shot that you remind yourself or or bring up, you know, chatting with friends for years after that.

more that way. You know, you don't really see a lot of that. You don't really see a lot of people trying it and actually really really working out, well, where do you want to you want to play to each side? A lot of time it just sort of winds up they're like, well, I'm going down that side, and that's where I'm going forever. Maybe if I have some reason to play the opposite fairway, I might try her once in a while. But the keys just good

getting it all the work. But there's also been some pretty poor examples of that over the last twenty and twenty and thirty years, you know, to where it was they tried to do multiple fairways and it was just added expense that you know, again for the reasons we're kind of talking about, it just didn't quite work out. There was no reason to play to that side, or it wasn't the risk actually wasn't worth it was reward,

or or it was just impractical. And it becomes when you get into that category, it becomes very expensive maintenance. You know, it's maximum expenditure for almost no game. So, uh, I'd suppose the answer to the question is if it's a really good architect that knows what they are doing, absolutely I think it's something that we should be exploring

even a little bit more. Uh. Whereas if it's if it's in the hands of somebody that doesn't quite know quite how to implemat that, it's probably money that's better left unspent.

either working for him or have work for him. Uh, you know, he was just asking what would uh what would be some cool different ideas to try on a project on a on a flat piece of land and uh, and that's what I came back with was uh you know, uh, I spent you know, maybe an hour or so sort of like sketching around and trying to think of, well, what would be some good ways to uh do some multiple fairway sort of stuff on a flat piece of ground to uh to add some uh some serious variety

into the equation and uh and the more I kind of sketched around on it was like the you know, it's not something that was the first time I had done that before, uh, but it reminded me, uh that, uh, you know, that would be a pretty pretty nice way to attack certain kinds of pieces of land where you don't really have a lot of topography.

I think we just hit it right at it. And sure enough, playing in the tournament and I hit like one of my best friends of the day and it just lands right in the middle of.

like really I marveled that. And the design is is there were some really cool fresh ideas that that Tom threw to the equation out there while it was still

all practical for the average player. But what a what a fun hole and what a uh what a great part five to really like put it on you right from the t shot that you've got to you've got to have it together my mother mother going down the left hand lane, I'm really gonna have a legit shot of getting uh uh to the green into or I'm playing right and I'm playing safety uh the whole way,

you know, uh. And you know that was what I thought was really cool and and and really really fresh about it, was the fact that there was a solid effort right from from the tee to make you force force you in a clear decision whether you're gonna simply be playing playing concernably the whole way down the whole

very very cool way to uh to approach it. And that's where, you know, when I was referring to multiple fairwies or whatnot, I was thinking more in terms of having fairy is completely disconnected from each other, whether it's a you know, uh, you know, some sort of creek or or ditch or you know, running rapping sort of bunker thing like Riviera exactly exactly, yeah, you know, uh that's I was more kind of referring to something like that.

But you know, again, it all goes back to the same point, you know, center line hazards and forcing people to make decisions, very very quick decisions and execute is

is really it's so much fun, you know. Uh, it's just great architecture, and uh, whether it's in a h a more uh you know, uh subtle format like a whole like three or two at Pacific Dunes or uh or you know the other holes that we were describing, you know, so I think it would be fun to explore more the uh the the former you know, where you're you're really separating sections of holes and and maybe people trying to uh you know, really uh really figure

things out and make some really good concrete decisions. I think there's I think it's something that uh that definitely can can go uh even a little bit more aggressive format in that category. But again, it all has to come back to whether it's actually practical and you can actually make the strategy of the holes work and not to be kind of a three dollar bill.

You remember Calm having said everyone something to the effect that it takes more than two sentences to explain it, that it's probably too complex. Uh. But you know, I think I think when you I think when you start talking about multiple pharawers and multi different routes and all those kinds of things, I don't think there's a person under the sun that doesn't figure that out immediately. You know, They're like, well, these are clear options. To me, these

are clear strategy decisions that I have to make. You know, I think it makes ah, there's there's a discussion be made there that it makes a little bit more accessible. Arctsh are a little bit more accessible to uh people that aren't accustomed to, uh to learning the complexities of Well, i've got a bunker front right of the green. Here, there's a bunker on the less hands side of the faraway.

You know, uh, most people don't get the simple stuff, but it's when you start to get into the more complex stuff that that people tend to notice maybe a little bit less and uh you know again multiple fareaways. Stuff is uh as obvious and interesting as it gets. So certainly something to be said for the accessibility of going that route design wise, mm hmm definitely.