Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by b Dratty. It is the holiday season. Amazing, it's here again. I can't believe how quick this year went. But we have a fully stocked pro shop, thanks in many part to be Dratty. We have some of our favorite items in the shop available for purchase for you and your loved ones this this holiday season, or your friends that love the frieda Egg.
You know, get them, get them, get that keeps giving merchandise. So a few of our favorite items that we have in there. I love the Liam Polo that's my uh, that's my jam. I like the pocket I think it looks really good. The Peruvian cotton is just unbelievable, so soft, so comfortable styling too. It look good if you got to go to like Bronch aft you play golf, you do want to be the guy wearing like the you know, heavy performance gear when you go meet your wife for
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They're both available in the shop as well as we have a bunch of Fairway and Green Gear, pullovers, vests, polos, and.
Also have a bunch of zer Gear.
So we got some pullovers and some vests, some jackets even and that all with a Friday logo.
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We've got the photoprints up there too, and we're going to extend the Cyber Monday deal just because this POD's dropping now till Wednesday, So if you get on and use the code cyber Monday Junior, you'll get twenty percent off order. What a great deal. Andrew supporting, supporting the pod, supporting the website. Today's guest is Keith reb Keith was one of the first guests in Fridagg history. It was when we had a lot worse audio quality. I didn't really know what I was doing then, and Keith was
gracious enough to join me. I was in his hometown winter park for a quick afternoon. We actually recorded this right outside the golf course. We were just sitting there watching people tee off pac golf course, and we talked
a lot about what's been going on with Keith. The smashing success of winter Park, even more success than the last time we had talked, his new project of forest Dunes with Riley John's and then as well as his restoration work at Rolling Green, and then kind of life balancing between being a shaper for Corn Crunshaw and building out his own design business. So, without further ado, here is Keith rep I miss a green.
For example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a bright egg Frida eggad Frida egg Frida egg bride egg lie.
I'm about ready to run off the the.
Keith, you're back early podcast.
Yeah, impromptu podcast at winter Park.
So we're literally enjoying the park or just sitting here.
Yeah, this is a a it's a beautiful day. It's good to see that you survive the possum attack. I don't see any signs of rabies or anything here, so so that's good. No no wounds.
I'm I'm city fulk I'm a new new member of the suburbs. So the possum it's a frightening thing to be walking around during the day.
Yeah, they do have vicious teeth, they can.
I was doing it mostly for my dog.
Yeah, there we go.
People. People have been giving me a lot of crap.
It was pretty funny, I would have to say. I laughed. I laughed quite a while about that one. That was a good That was some good internet content there. Yeah.
Yeah, my wife likes to follow me around and whenever I'm doing anything remotely interesting, film it just in case.
It looked ridiculous.
It's uh so what's uh, what's the new? You've been so we you were probably like I think our fourth or fifth podcast ever.
Yeah, well, Lisa, uh went uphill from there. I guess after that point. You know, you you upgraded your equipment, and now you've upgraded a lot of things the company and we.
Have significantly improve the audio quality.
That is spot on. Yeah, you know, and uh you know, I remember I also remember seeing a couple of your early drone footages. I think when you took it might be your first the winter park. Yeah, first uh drone footage. I had to put it in a photoshop to actually uh make the photo even I think it was like off by like maybe eight or nine percent or so.
It's possible that footage is still on the internet and it was. It was it was basically like the camera. It was diagonal. But a lot's changed here. Yeah at winter Park since uh since that footage.
Yeah, there's yeah, it's I mean they are. They keep on breaking their records every every year. So it's it's been exciting and the city's still investing in it. Invested ninety dollars in it last year. We did some upgrades and they're getting ready to do another investment next year on this whole patio area that we're sitting on them and has some lounge chairs, a couple of TVs and just kind of make it more of a hang HEREM so excited about that.
Yeah, the it's amazing because you go to I visit public courses and it's Thursday afternoon and just a constant cycle down the first d the course is back. You're driving up and there's people on every hall and it's just a completely different site than than most American golf courses and especially municipal golf courses, where you know, Thursday Thursday at this time is is kind of a.
Closing the doors, locking up and heading home because no one's showing up.
Yeah, it's fun. I like to go because non base around. Yeah, I can zip around. But uh, the so what I guess when you think about it now that you're a resident of winter Park too, that's the news.
Yeah, yeah, I live back here in winter Park, about ten minutes away from the golf course. So it's uh, you know, I mean, we we tried to go somewhere else for a while and then realize that a lot of the things that we enjoyed about this area we kind of missed. So we're we're back here. That's great.
When you built this place, I'm sure you thought it could be something like this, but did you ever envision it being this successful?
Not at all? And it was you know, I mean to say that, like to think that would be a goal for it to be this successful. I mean, of course it would be. You know, we want this to be successful, but you know, we just really wanted to build a cool course for the residents of Winter Park in this area and never thought that it would kind of become a little bit of a you know, kind of a role model to other municipal golf courses of
what they could be. So it's been very exciting to see the success of this and the effort that is Superintendent and his crew and all the people here are working at winter Park or put their blood, sweat and tears into this place to make it successful too. It's it's not just us building something here, but it's also the people that take care of it after you leave, and and they take a lot of pride in this place.
And and I mean you can see it here every day, the people working in the pro shop and you know the name, they know the names of all the members and the people that play here all the time, and it's just, uh, it's it's uh, it's community, you know.
And talk a little bit about from the maintenance standpoint, obviously, it's a it's a different golf course to maintain than it used to be.
Were there any anything that when you were kind of.
Early years of of the new golf course where you had to kind of hone in and and and work with you know, either on the architecture or on the on the maintenance practices.
Well, I mean, you know, with the Bermuda grass, you know, it takes it takes some time to just establish over the years, so you know, I mean it's it's started, it started to get to that point where it's really established and it's rooted down and it's it's it can
take the wear and tear. And I mean some of the things that we've seen too, is a lot of the shade issues with some of the trees in the in the around the course that need to be trimmed up, and a few needed to be removed mainly because of tree health too, that they just deteriorated and it's time
for the tree to go. And now that just has helped the turf immensely, so you know, and just uh, I mean, the one thing we're seeing is just so many people out here playing that we we now need to look back at some of these teas that we built and we need to build bigger teas just to handle the wear and tear.
So I remember Bill talking about that with the sandbox versus the preserve, how he didn't realize how popular the preserve would be and how much more tea space he needed. And you know with the sandboxy that was one of the big stresses is how much T space you need.
Yeah, yeah, so I mean over even so in May next year we this whole, like I said, this whole first tea area is gonna all get redone too, and we're gonna we're going to established get some more T space here on the first first tea and make a new putting putting green area and just kind of shift a few these areas around. We got plans to add more tea space and a little bit of a different angle on number seven and and also on whole number eight.
So and then this year we added more T space on whole number five too.
So it's just you're you're tweaking things like Jack tweaks Memorial every day every year. You know, You're you're like the the Winter Parks, Jack Nicholas, just making tweaks.
Every year after the after the FGA show.
So you've been busy, Yeah, but you've been doing a lot of stuff. You've been in uh been in uh Abandon at the Sheet Branch, You've been in Hawaii Capalua. You you and Riley are got designed number two under you know, grassed and and sleeping right now with winter, but it'll be ready to be open next year at Forest Duds a short course up there. Uh, tell tell us a little bit about uh the second solo gig with you and Riley and and kind of uh that opportunity and I know it came together pretty quick.
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a phone call that Riley and I got. We were sitting in San Francisco at that time. We landed and I got this message on my phone and I called Lou back and and man, he's just you know, hey, I'd like you guys to come out and you know, build a short course for me. And we were like, well, we're kind of busy right now. We're trying to figure out how we can. You know, we were almost like kind of almost turning it down because we had commitments with other people and we didn't
want to, you know, bail out on them. So and uh, once I got out there to to Forest Dunes and took a look at the site that that Lou was wanting to build on, and yeah, I just you know, and there was there was an opportunity something pretty cool there. So and yeah, it really did happen fast. I mean it was basically eighty one days from like start to start to finish. Basically and grasped out and that in that time and tree clearing, shaping and grass and I
mean irrigation everything. So it was, uh, you know, Lou had everything keyed up and and then ready to go. And Mark Loots, the the GM there, he just helped, you know, kind of just whatever we needed he got, he got it done for us. So and it was it was great working with all the apt there and everybody that helped out in the course, and it was part of the reason it was successful because everyone collaborated and worked together.
So it's that's got to be a tough thing with being a you know, younger architect where you're you're trying to make sure you have somewhere to work, but then you have opportunities to come up, and you know, when you make commitments, you obviously got.
To honor most of them.
So you talk a little bit about over the years becoming you know, more of a name and architecture and and some of the you know, deciding where to go and why to go.
Yeah, I mean it's it is a balancing act and you never want to bail out on someone and and and also you know with I also work with core Crunshaw too, so that that that puts in a whole nother, a whole other layer of making sure you balance your time and you're not, you know, best dealing on someone where you say, well this is a better course, I'd
be better here and leave that. So it's, uh, it's it's one thing I find is a big challenge once you get those phone calls and and but you just have to be upfront with them and say, you know, this is the time that we can do this, and if you want to commit to that time, then then let's go forward. But if if there's not, then we have to you know, hold the hold to our commitments. And and it does help that with Riley and I, with being two of us, that we can kind of
balance a lot of these things too. And I see that as a huge asset of going into this too.
So I imagine since both of you guys are are so well versed in the field, having both worked a ton in the field, that it's nice that you know, it's a partnership where if one of you can't be there, you got full trust in the other one to be able to get the field work done and build it to the you know, the standard you guys have Yeah.
Yeah, that's uh, yeah, that that really helps, just to have someone to collaborate with and bounce ideas off of, and and also have someone that challenges you and things too. You know, if if you have an idea and it's a little different from the other person, you have to kind of you know, go to go to bat for your idea and then then it's either it happens or don't. But it's never one of those things where we walk away from angry at each other.
What's an example of, say, maybe one of your ideas that you guys worked with, you know, you maybe that adapted thanks to the collaboration between you guys.
I would I would say one of the examples is, uh, out here at Winter Park is a whole number six, you know, the lion's mouth, Yeah, the lion's mouth. You know, we're we're trying to get an idea of how we wanted it to be more of a punch bowl feel to it. But if it had too much of a punch bowl, then then it's not gonna have positive drainage out of that, and it could cause you know, turf
issues and decline and stuff. So we're trying to find that right balance of having something really neat but yet not making it to where it's going to be a challenge for the supernility. Yes, yeah, I mean if you build something really cool and it can't survive and then it's gonna look it's not gonna look good, and then then people take notice of that.
So you got the question is that super cool?
If it if it? If it doesn't. So so I think that was something that we both were looking at, and you know, we both came with both of our concerns, and I think, you know, at the end, it it's uh, you know, I think it's what Ed says is probably one of his best greens out here with quality turf, and and it's it's a fun hole to play.
Yeah, I think definitely one of the most memorable ones that I think most people remember.
Obviously.
It's it's just such a distinct and unique green and uh fun one because you can play it so many different ways and with so many different shots. It's so with with Forrest Dun you know, you're designing resort with two other golf courses and uh, how's the you know, what are the characteristics of the short course that will be unique to the to the resort other than it being short.
Yeah, I mean I think I think a lot of the greens are going to be very receptive the shots and kind of almost like a catcher's mint a bit, you know. I mean, when you play at the Loop, it's it's a lot of fun, but you got to make sure you're hitting the right shot into those greens or you're gonna get rejected, you know. So I think it's uh, I think, you know, I think one thing with Riley and I like we like to do too is kind of like get an idea who the people
are playing the course. And that's one thing that we did here at Winna Park is kind of just almost sit here and watch the people that played the course, and we could see the people that were coming to visit Forest Dunes and and even the members that are
members there and watching them and seeing them. They needed something like in the evenings to go hit some shots and go have some have a few drinks with buddies and just bet and just forget about score and just just laid laid back golf and and and then also just a place too for where the kids can go kick around a couple of shots too, and and and and and enjoy just going out there on their own.
So yeah, I mean it's in a part of the country that's not but golf could be like a wonderful activity for so many people around there. You know, I've I've went up to Ross Common when I was a kid doing you know, some projects with like some work projects, work camp projects, and it's a it's a beautiful part of the country and you know, definitely could be a great thing for the community, more so than you know, the big golf courses.
Yeah, I think it's you know, a way to enter into the game there. And you know, I think it would be cool to kind of get the the community to come out. Maybe the kids have a tournament there that's just local tournament that that are ten and under or something like that, hit shots around the short course.
Do you do you know, if they're going to do any sort of community uh deal with with the short course.
Or you know, I think I think there's still there's some there's some some ideas kicking around about something like that, maybe even a little tournament or something like that that could be played up there. And and uh, yeah, you know it was it was cool when we were building it that, you know, lose one of his biggest things that what he said why he wanted to do to the short course was to have a place for his
grandkids to come out and play with him. And and and we had the his grandkids were out there playing, and then Janelle had his step kids out there, and
and uh, we were out there. They were out there hitting shots and playing in dirt golf, you know, and and it was just cool to see them and them picking different places where they wanted a t uf from and and hit the ball from, and just and just seeing that joy of of not worrying about anything but just having fun with friends and not worrying about, hey, what was your last score on this hole or something like that, and I want to lose a jagger. He uh, he hit a shot on whole number seven and he
he hit the flagstick. So we basically said, like in dirt golf, if you hit the flag stick, like that's a hole in one. So you know, so he's got the first one one on the short course out there, So that's awesome.
Yeah, dirt golf, you gotta have a little bit different roles in regular golf.
I mean, he just he flew that and he just hit right on the flagstick. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, we got to go and make this. I thought we were making this maybe too hard, and now we gotta make a little more hard for them.
So this, I think that's well. Winter Park is in a short course. A short course. It's a nine hole golf course. Yeah, you know, there's part five, there's part four, but it's shorter. The thing that it does is it makes it keeps people together and it allows generations of people to spend less time apart on the course.
Right.
You know, you're with a shorter hole, You're if if you hit it one hundred and fifty yards and somebody else hits a three hundred, you're still playing from the about the same place and walking together. Yeah, And I think that's I mean, the huge benefit to it. It's just so much more of a social game when when the courses are smaller.
Yeah, yeah, it's I mean I see it all the time just driving by the course and just seeing the different groups and just people having conversations and you know, it's it's it's uh. I think I think anybody could drive by here right now and just see how pack this place is, and uh, and and and and think, man, we need to have this and why isn't my local municipal course this packed? I mean.
And the thing that this is doing, too, I think, in the bigger scale of it eventually, is is that it's not you're not spending money on golf. You're improving an asset that in this case is making the community money. You know, it is not most people look at golf as a well, we're losing money, but we're providing a service. And here you're providing a service and the and it's making money for the community.
Yeah, and and and then they're reinvesting in that back in the golf course. And it just you know, I mean the putting course is a perfect example of that, you know, I mean it was it was so packed that we had to double the size of the putting course for the for the kids. And and that's free to the whole community. You'll you can be you can go over there right now and you'll see people just walking up with their putter and three balls and just throw down and just put around for a little while.
You'll see families there and and that's that's uh, that's just really neat to see and yeah, I mean, it's it's it's also helped the city as they look at going on to do other project in the city to show that, hey, look how successful this has been. I think they've rebranded their tennis courts, you know, kind of seen the same things that that Winter Park's done here with a few of the the rebrand you know, the logos and stuff, and they've taken that to some of
the other projects. So they've seen a hey, this has been successful, the taxpayers trust us, and now it makes it easier, it makes it easier for us to move forward on other projects.
So it's yeah, I think, I mean, the the big thing with with this community is that they they took a chance and did something different than what the status quo for golf at a municipal at municipal level it was. And that's the thing that I admire most is in a way they're innovators and they're reaping the rewards of being the first mover in a you know, a marketplace that doesn't really move and and more communities can do it.
It's it's just a matter of having somebody that has the vision to push it that way.
Yeah, and that's uh, that is a yeah, that's that's that's the biggest thing right there is is people wanting to getting scared to not make a move, and then then their course just uh you know, slowly disintegrates, and and then everyone's like, well, look, golf is dying. Yeah, and then like, oh, well, here's the developer that comes along like, hey, this is this land here, why why don't you just go ahead and sell this to us?
You know, it's we can, we can, we can bring more tax base and more tax money in for it. Just put condos and then you know, just wipe away all this green space and all these cities and and and that's what could have happened here. I mean the city only owned uh, whole number one and whole number nine. And the year that we did went to do the construction was the year that they actually paid off the loan to from to the family, so they owned all
the course. So it could have been easy at that point to them to just sell off the rest of the rest of the golf course. I mean, this land is you know, quite valuable. Yeah, and there's now there's now condos going up to the right of number seven. Now and those places are going for like two point
five to three point I mean million dollars now. And the developer that's doing those condos actually bought a church that was there, gave them enough money to rebuild their church back further to the property, and now they're putting more condos in right next to seven.
So that was the thing I when I was doing research for a about the golf course in my hometown that was thinking about closing, is I found there's statistics about proximity to golf courses and the value of your home, like that alone should entice communities to invest in the golf course, because the if you're within a mile of a of a golf course, it's something like twenty five thousand dollars added value.
To your home.
And and from that standpoint, it's just crazy to think, like, you know, that alone should be enough to keep a lot of golf courses because of the the's just the value of the property. And for imagine like the service of being able to just walk down the street with a putter and they're being a great putting courses. Is I mean, what a great little activity to have to be able to do for free.
Yeah, yeah, and then you know, and then in the evenings when when no one's out here golfing, you can see people just walking through the fairways of winter Park and just enjoying the walk. And you know, as long as the people will clean up after their dogs, they can have their dogs out here and run around too. You just have to be responsible dog.
That's good. I'm bringing the dog out next time.
The So.
Speaking of you know, what have you now that you've been doing solo projects. What have you taken from solo work that's made your work as an associate for Corn Crunshaw.
Oh, that's yeah, that's a good question. Andy. I think it's you know, making sure that that that you have that you have enough time on site, you know, I mean that's the biggest thing. You don't want to be pulled to other things to think about that one a
little bit. But yeah, I mean it's I think it's just still attention to detail and it just makes you appreciate more the relationships you have with the clubs and things like that and building those trusts from the start and you kind of see that going into the golf course as you start building it. Yeah, there's a lot of things I mean, it's still learning every day, you know, I mean being out here and working and learning from Ryan and learning from different projects, and and I think
that's I think that's the funnest thing. You never never gonna just gonna master the gulf of what's the texture that you still learn every day.
So what's something that you picked up from, say, your time at bandon the building the Sheep Ranch.
I think, you know, with I think the one thing I picked up there was just I mean just more watching when Bill first approached that site and seeing a raw piece of land like that, but also seeing that someone's already done something to it, but not having the tendency to try to erase what's been done before and
then try to do your own thing. Seeing him look at that piece of property, knowing that someone else did work on it, but say this is really good, Like, how are we going to work around this stuff and utilize these contours and show respect to the other people that have been here and worked on it and build something cool and neat from there. I think that was a really cool thing there, And just I know, it's nice there when it's you know, it's nice for me to kind of just take the to just go back
to being creative. I mean not have to think about any of the other things that like, oh well, now I need to you know, what do I need to communicate to the membership or something like that, or or things like that, or what do I need to coordinate, what do we need to order. I can just be Okay, I'm just gonna think about shaping the screen and that's that's. Uh, that's nice to kind of just turn your brain off and just get creative.
So that's an interesting thought because in terms of the progression of your career, you go and you're gonna continue, you know, to get more and more solo projects. But in a way, working as an associate in a place could actually spur more creativity and your future of work.
If you, if you say.
Took, if you did, you know, a couple of months as associate every year, you might be a better hour architect in the long run.
Exactly. Yeah, I mean it's I guess I can express how much I appreciate, you know, the way Bill and Ben allow me to to move in and out of core Crnshaw and then when I communicate what you know, the hey this is going on, and Bill will be like, hey, go get it, you know, go go for it. And and that freedom of always having a home with them and working with them, it's I mean, I that doesn't
happen very often. And then I think that's just something I can't explain enough about how appreciative I am towards Bill and Ben for that opportunity to for them to say, well, hey, well, if you're going out on your own, you know, good luck, we'll see you later, you know, type.
Of thing like hey, you're a competitor now, yeah, don't let the door.
Hey yeah.
Mentality, it's a it's it's something that's it's really cool for them to do that, and I think that's I think it helps me be a you know, a better person just working with Bill and Ben and being around them more. The more you can take that time and being around them, but I just also just learning, learning more and being a sponge from them and taking everything in and and see how they approach different things in different projects.
So so something I've been excited to talk to you a little bit about because I've listened to you and Bill wax poetic about Old Town Club and I hadn't been there, and I finally went Wow, And I've just I've been you know, working on that project and it being such a big part of Bill's you know, kind of development into being an architect. What did you pick up from Old Town that you kind of see most in Bill's work?
I would say, first of all, I think if you go kind of that's when the light bulb kind of went on for me and getting more interested and curious about architecture and getting you know, and maybe looking at you.
Know, how long have you been with the corn Crunch Eye at that point?
Well, so I was working with them in two thousand and five, but I was with Core, I was with Landscapes, I was helping them with at Caraile Golf Club. I wasn't with associate, and I started with them trying to kind of lose a track of time, but sugar Loaf Mountain and then went from sugar Loaf Mountain to help at Dormy Club for a while, and then this is a little long Hair song. Well then I went to Lost Farm Barn Bugle stream Song, and then I went to Old Town and then I went to Cabot Cliffs.
So yeah, it was that's kind of that point where I'm like, you know, looking at the history, looking at Perry Maxwell, looking at the aha moments of Okay, this
is why we do these certain things. Is on the course is or why Bill would route something, or why he would utilize this contour, or why he would give you this run up, or or maybe this contour in the green has kind of got the It was at that moment I'm like, Okay, well, now now I see where where the you know, part of the influences of what how how much Old Old Town had to effect on Bill in his architecture, And and it was just it was for me too, the point where I was like,
you know, looking at the old plans, looking at the old aerials, doing the research that done LOMP and looking at all the all the research that Dunelp had done prior to the work that we started there, and and that was that was cool because I mean a lot of times you're just on a project where it's a new build, you don't have the tipy toe around anything.
You're just building golf, and this is something where you got to, you know, do a little research, and and that that got me kind of yeah, like I said, the light bulb kind of turned on for me. Personally too to get more curious about the architecture side of things too.
So, yeah, that that place is just incredible because you look at the routing and what I kind of took away was the way I don't know many architects that would have routed it the way he routed it over those severe landforms, you know a lot of them, I feel like would have looked for a way around him, and he was just going right over him. And then obviously the greens are incredible, but that routing is just unbelievable.
Yeah, And I mean I think I don't know how many acres that you know, they they gave him the opportunity to look. It wasn't just like here's where you're building this golf.
Course, like a thousand acres available.
Thousand acres of like what do you think? You know? And you know this is going to go off on a little bit of tangent here, But we were trying to think about, Okay, so when was Perry Maxwell and like in the Philadelphia and he might have been in Philadelphia, and we kind of look at like maybe he was influenced on some of the courses in Philly, maybe even Rolling Green, you know, looking at how William Flynn routed and all those guys are kind of talking. It's like,
did he get influenced a little bit? I mean, that's like someone's got to do a little bit, a big, bigger dig on on the history there. But you know, maybe he went to Rolling Green when in.
That golf course in uh in Philly. Uh what's it called. I can't remember what it is, what the name of it is. It's driving, But he was in the area. Yeah, he was there.
He designed a course with it.
They say it's Mackenzie Maxwell, but it's mostly Maxwell. It's a you know, public golf course. It's still some of it remains. But I agree. The only person that I could compare Maxwell in the terms of the way he routes courses would be Flynn. Like how natural they were and how unafraid they were to use heavy cone, abrupt contours.
I mean, you look at some of you know, those greens at Rolling Green or just yeah, I mean, oh well we're going up here, you know, and it's like and then the side slopes of the fairways, the canter of the fairways, you know, it's like that's what I think is so interesting. It's like most people would be like, oh, we need to level these fairways out, and he's like, no,
we're sticking this fairway right on this slope. And you got to think about how where you hit your ball here and where it's going to run out to is
the best and just utilizing the land. And I think that those are the things that Bill was just like, man, he's just taken in and he was saying that there's a spot I think it's on number twelve there where there's a little building there and there was a gate right there, and that's where Bill would sneak through that gate right there, and then he would play the course through pays i think dollar to play the course and
then go on. But it's just cool to see, like, you know, I mean, I guess this might get a little kind of like out there, but you know, in life, those lord here, yeah, those yeah, those those things in life that you don't know the pass that you're taking on it and then you're going down this path and then knowing how much those little things will influence, you know, things down the road. I mean him Bill choosing Wake Forest to go there and then having a Perry Maxwell.
I mean, just look at those things that like, look where we're at now, you know, I mean with with Bill's designs. I mean it's just.
That well, I mean you're kind of the same boat because you were doing construction work road like road construction, doing concrete work.
But you know, those little things with concrete work and and those things I learned from that and running equipment then kind of you know, went right into to kind of building golf. You know, it's it's a lot easier to shape dearth than it is concrete.
So and you didn't know really anything about golf when you started working at Sutton Bay, right, No, No, I was I had no.
Yeah, I mean I barely play, you know, I had no introduction into it wasn't a path that I was heading down. And and and then just just having the opportunity to go work at Sutton Bay and just look out at the beauty of the course and and seeing it being built and and seeing what goes into it, I was just like, Okay, well, I know what I
want to do now. You know. It's like I just want to build golf and and have fun and do this and and and and and to be able to now sit here and at Winter Park with you and discuss. I mean, it's I can't tell you how much I'm just appreciative of all the people that have helped me through and and inspired me to be here where I am now. I mean, it's it is, it's it's pretty cool.
I mean just to sit here right now and see like five people on the putting green putting around right now, someone's teeing off, and seeing this place packed, you know.
That's got to never get all the seeing people playing the course that you've built.
Yeah, yeah, it's it is a it is a it is a cool thing and and it's the one thing while I'm glad, I'm glad I'm back here in winter Park to be so close to here and and to continue just to see this place grow and it's it's exciting.
So yeah, with you know, I uh, back to you know, old town for a second. The one thing, do you do you see a lot from those greens that remind you of greens that you've you've watched Bill build over the year?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. I was like that's that was the first things I'm like, okay, well, this little kind of Perry Maxwell roll here, you know, like Okay, well, this is this is something I've seen before and built and and and in some of the tier greens and stuff like that, and and the run ups and the false fronts, and I mean it was it was it
was a cool, cool thing to see. And and then the bunker style, I mean you know, I mean you know when we first got there, those bunkers have been I mean they were perfect circles. I mean, there was no character. It was. It was it was like, oh, well, we need to make this easy to maintenance, for maintenance and maintaining it, which is understandable. You don't want to
have something that's unmaintainable. And then as a stressor. But when you go so far on the spectrum to where it's zero maintenance bunker, it just wipes all the character out of what was there before and and and scratching back that that creativity and bringing that back in. I mean you could just look at where Old Town was
before the renovation. I mean they were way off the list of top one hundred classic courses, I think, and I think they've like jumped up to like what forty five or thirty seven or something like that.
It's it's just that Golf Week one. I think they're almost up at twenty ors.
Yeah, yeah, and it's it's uh, it's it's deserved. And but I mean there's also stuff before we got there that they were doing such a good job on, is
you know, the tree removal. So I mean when you look at you know, I always say that with if you want a great tree removal success story to look at, you know, look at what Old Town did and what Dunlop did there with with removing tons of trees, but you would never know that there was you know, it was done respectfully and done right, and in the in the courses, the views of that place is just unreal looking at you know, from some of the te's and
looking out over that property to imagine that there was like thousands of more trees everywhere. Everything was choked off. And so you're you're.
Doing restoration work at Rolling Green, which I from I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it, but from a property standpoint, really kind of pretty similar to Old Town in the in the just the bold the massive landforms that that the course is routed over, but like you know, very corridored off where almost each holds its own room. And now they just approved a tree removal project.
And you know, I think it's done for the right reasons. I mean, you know, it's it's really has to be. It's the right tree in the right place. And and there weren't trees there and a lot of responts before tons of them got planted, and you got to look at you know, the health of the turf, the health of the greens, and you know, frost delays. I mean, there's so many things that kind of go into that are just going to open the door to in the in the views. But but first of all, the condition
of the golf course. I mean it's going to be a huge effect on that golf course, opening up those corridors. And excited to see that, I'm gonna be. I'm heading back up there here this next week, so I'm going to take a look at how things are progressing with the with the tree removal plan. And and you know, we're not just taking them all, We're we're picking the right tree.
And that's something that's misconceived.
And you know, I got it, as people think I am just cut down every tree. It's like, no, expose the trees that are the great trees or the property, and if you get the stuff away from it around it, the tree is just so beautiful and it's actually allowed to be healthy.
Yeah, and that's that's kind of what's happened there at Rolling Green. A lot of these trees are so choked off that one overcompetes and then it grows into the other one, and then it gets the diseased. And then well once you lose that one, well now you've got to get rid of four trees just because one, you know, one's got to come out. So I think that's one thing, and I think two. I think for here at Winter
Park is a perfect example too. I mean, we've actually planted back more trees than we've taken down, but they're in the right spots. We've we've been able to plant them. We've been able to get the invasive trees that needed to come out, and then we've replaced them with pines. I mean, right now you look at three beautiful pines that are planted over here behind nine. And then the tree trimming and stuff like that that's happened around the
course too. It just helps the turf thrive. So it is you know, everyone says, oh, just cut down all the trees. But it's it's really it does go back to just the right tree in the right place and and.
And that's the other thing trees can do when you expose trees more is that they can act as like optical illusion and deception. They can mess with sight lines and and you know distance, like the way you interpret distances and how far you think things are.
Everything. Yeah, so it's I think, uh, yeah, I'm excited to see the progression of the plan with Rolling Green, with the tree removal and and see the excitement of everyone, you know next year when they see it, and I know will probably happen. It will be like, so we took out trees, you know, and no one remembers, you know, when when it's already, when it's been done, they they don't miss them. So and a lot of those trees too, there's a disease and a lot of the trees that
they needed. I mean, Rolling Green has done it. Like they went and had to arborist go through. They marked every tree on the site. I mean there's some trees that I walked up to and I can believe that
they have a marker on. But they went through every tree, checked every health of every tree that was on the site, and then it gives you a list, you know, and Brian's got a tablet that has them all in and you can click on every tree and he knows what the health is and you know, then you make a choice either going to spend thousands of dollars to treat this tree or remove it and replace it with a tree that can thrive. So that just gives you I
really commend them for going that route. They've they've done their research and the asset of having that information has been huge for all of us to look at.
So with restoration work, obviously, I imagine you learned a ton of stuff when you building new courses. How what's the is the stuff you learn and the way you're kind of thinking of of architecture is that the way it progresses when you're doing restoration work is it different than the way it does when you're doing a new build.
Yeah. I mean the biggest thing is you hear it a hundred times, you know, you get ready to do a restoration or something or going that aspect and you're like, so we're going to move this bunker closer to the t's and we're going to put this back to where it was, you know, and they and then it comes into the whole technology is it is it going to be relevant? You know if we move this bunker, we do things, and then you're thinking about then then the
technology is start steering the restoration. And then it's like it's that balance of oh, you're going to make the course too easy. And I think we were kind of hearing at really weren't hearing that, but it was it was a concern that like even at old Town, or we're to make it too easy that Old Town. We went and we had some bunkers in certain spots to kind of help with the technology. Maybe we had a bunker behind another bunker where you don't really see it,
but it comes in play for the big hitter. So now and then you got to kind of turn that kind of thought into it about is that bunker meant to be a visual cue or is it plays in the strategy. And especially like with Flynn, like once you kind of think you figured out what Flynn's gonna do, he'll do something completely kind of like throws you off in a whole different aspect of things, and you and once you think you got it, you're like, okay, well then why this one doesn't make any sense? Why'd you
put this bunker here? So I think that's that's one thing we're working with Rolling Green right now is when we first went and looked at it, we were we were taking that thing back to nineteen twenty six. Like
we found we went in a deep dive. We found a plan that had been sitting in an engineer's office for like ninety like ninety two years, was just sitting rolled up and it was like the linen plan that's like looks like a treasure map and you you know, fold this thing open and it's got the pencil marks of where, you know, even where Flynn was thinking about maybe the fifteenth Green being in a different place, and you know, and you start doing research about different plans
that were drawn in that he had he'd put up, and then you start seeing the little differences of where things have shifted, and then you have to figure out, well, why did he shift that? And you got to kind of put your you know, kind of thinking outside the box and why that might happen. So I think with with with Rolling Green in that aspect is just it was just so much fun to do the deep dive and find out the history and where we've now found
We've we found the baseline. We're like, okay, this is exactly where we could basically say this is what it was when it opened up in nineteen twenty six, and then now we can take that information and now we can move forward without doing something that would damage the course and be something that would not go that would go against kind of Flynn's principles on those things.
So you and Riley did something unique with the you know when you guys got the job at Rolling Green where you did a massive flint tour. Yeah, yeah, I mean you saw what twenty something, Yeah, yeah.
We went everywhere we were just we wanted to get those uh those you start seeing like patterns of things and then you can kind of take that back to where you're and then back to Rolling Green or or you know, maybe that's something that you know that he would do here, so you I don't know, it was. It was really kind of cool to see, you know, how things how maybe some assumptions that maybe made about what it was or what It's kind of hard to explain, but like kind of know how far to take things.
I guess what.
Were some of your biggest takeaways that you know, or things that after seeing Rolling Green that the tour might have changed your perception of Flynn or something that maybe even something that you take away from Flynn and and really look at, you know, hopefully using in your future work.
Well, I think it's I think it's the I think to seeing his designs is how almost he was ahead of his time, I think. And you know in the clubs that they were using at that time and in some of the shots on some of these courses that he was asking you to make, and you're like, you know, even with the modern technology, this isn't an easy shot.
You know, these guys are got you know, I don't know, got hickories and they're just you know, hitting this ball into the into into some of these greens and and just some of the you know, not afraid to put you know, fairways on on side slopes and things and and how and you got to think about how you're placing the ball in the fairway and and where it's
going to run out to and the strategy. And I think too, when you look at there's a few times where people are like, oh, we're the most authentic Flynn and then you start kind of digging back and you got these photos and you start looking and you're like, well, I don't know, I don't know what happened here, but that doesn't look like what it was.
I guess of the Finns that you saw outside outside of Rolling Green, which one would the one that you kind of took the way it took away the most. And if there was one that was particularly you you didn't expect to get as much out of, what were the courses that kind of resonated and stuck with you the most?
I think the one that, like just recently, I was up in Cleveland and I went to the Cleveland country Club there and and that one is like it's it's the bones are still there. It just you know it. It could use the bunker restoration and things like that, but man, it's got it's got just some cool character to it. And that's one that I I really saw as like what one had the most potential if it was put back or had some work done on it.
And country club, Yeah, contract that place is really cool.
Yeah, I mean there's there's just that funky kind of just the land that he picks and it's like, I don't know if you had like a standard where he said, well, if you don't have a creek running through your project or or you don't have this you know, random you know, hills or things like that, then I'm just not interested in it. But because that's one thing that he starts seeing, you know, some of the things that he would route it over a over a stream or something like that.
And I mean there's some of the ones right around you know, Philly that you know, like Huntington, you know, and seeing some of the you know, him using that raw land and then a compact piece of property too. But then you getting the best out of it is
something I really really noticed. He liked that outside inside right rout Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's he's gonna take you on a on a a little bit of a journey through different parts of the prompt breath in, and and that's what's that's what's really cool that he definitely gets the best out of it.
How how's so here at winter Park? You you didn't really reroute anything, right, No.
I mean when we first, you know, we we first tried to take everything look at everything with a with a blank slate. But I mean, you got everything's surrounded by students, and I mean the only thing that we looked at is like could we do something with like five, six and seven over there and do something a little bit different, But it.
Just nothing with with for students with the opportunity. What was what was routing for the first time?
Like, oh, it was you know, it was it was cool. I mean it was basically that one day walk in it. I mean you just let you just let your you know, feet kind of help you with you know, how would I walk this property if I was just gonna go on on a bit of a journey here. And that's what was fun when I first got there, when I first saw the property, I did a routing on my own, and then you know, Riley came in the next time and then we both then then he was able to
put his layer on it. And then that's kind of like that's what's fun. Is that that collaboration, like, oh well that's something I didn't think about and that's cool, and it's just that added uh, those those added things were neat, you know, and.
So so the way it worked, you you went first, you you put together a routing. Yeah, had Riley went had he seen your routing before he got there? Ah?
No, I didn't show him. Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah. I mean we all knew where we were starting from. I mean it was obvious where we were starting out, the pavilion right there, and you know, I had the routing and we went we walked through it, and then he's like, well, you know, I really feel like if I got to this point, I kind of want to know what was happening this way. So I was like, okay, well let's look at that. And I'm like, yeah, perfect, Yeah,
I didn't think about that. That's cool, it's a cool way to go and and and it's cool, but it's a better hole for that for that area. And then we both think about how we can make it work. But you know, sometimes when you have a cool idea and something changes there, then it has a ripple effect through the rest of the course. And and and that really there weren't many things that on the routing that
we both looked at that changed that much. The thing that that probably changed the most on the routing is when when Riley got there, was we finished on the ninth and we got to the ninth green, and it's it would have been a bit of a way from from the pavilion, and Riley is like, well, we got to figure out a way to play back to the pavilion, you know. And I'm like, I'm a play back I'm gona figure out a way to play back to the pavilion no matter what, you know. And I was like, okay, well,
how is this going to work? Riley? We And that's where it was that, well, can we have the putting green. We're gonna put another green here, and we're gonna have crossing holes. And that's that was that was a thing where Riley's one of his ideas was out of the box on making the crossing holes. So and when you're there.
Riley's got a lot of out of the box idea.
But I mean that's that that type of like shaking the excess, you know, the shaking the box and seeing what comes out. You know, it's like just you get sometimes in the norm of just thinking one way, but then you got someone that just like, you know, kind of just you know, like, hey, look at this a little differently, and.
You well, I think that's such a valuable thing in the design world because once you get kind of locked in you also the way you view something in anything of life, like you have your everybody has their own biases and the way they look at things, and and it can be great for so many ways, but that that collaboration often yields even better because it's you could take the two the things that you do best, and somebody else might just enhance it.
A little bit.
Yeah, it's it's really having that you know, no ego and and yeah, it's just it's just taking a step back sometimes and sometimes in your mind you'll fight it a little bit, you know, be like, oh, I mean this is I kind of like this, you know, but then you start thinking about it, and then when you're done, you're like, why would I have ever had that idea of trying to like, uh, be locked in into something
like this. So that's it's something that I saw that I see with when we're working with Bill and Ben all the time, and I'm like, man, that works. And when you have someone like Riley where it's so much fun to be around and joke around with and and and have those outside the box things, but like yeah, just the yeah, we're gonna do a crossing hole here one in ten are going to cross and and when you're there, everyone's like, oh, well, how is this gonna work?
You know, And when you're there, there's a big tree that blocks and forces you that way, and you just gotta have golf etiquette and and you know, it's it's a place to have fun. And if you're gonna get upset because of speeds of play or something like that, like then just go back to your cottage.
And it has to be like a it's almost like a coincidence where people are at the exact same point at the exact same time.
Well, I think, yeah, yeah, when you think about it, I think it's also gonna be fun because you're gonna have the people shout and be like, you know, cheering on the person that they hit their shot on there. The people on the tee on ten are gonna be watching the people hitt into one. It's just gonna create this buzz around that pavilion. And then you got people, you know, if they hit a hole in one, you
know there's gonna be people. We built the green on ten so you have a really good view of sitting at the pavilion of the full green surface. So and we built a bunker that kind of hides a bit of the green, so the ball will kind of hit up on a slope and then kind of trickle down into the It could be a whole one. You got the whole pavilion jumping up. People are excited, and and then you got the guy you know, running down the
fairway there. I mean, it's just it's going to create a buzz that I think, I think we need more in in golf. Is just that excitement and fun factor.
Oh yeah, I mean Part three is the best spot because everybody has a has a chance on the part of a Part three. You know, you could, you know, even if it's just for one shot, you can beat the best player, you know. Yeah, and that's the beauty. And there's a few things more thrilling than a whole one.
Yeah.
So you know, we will be looking for next year, next June ju Jun ye.
And then I'll have to get up there definitely.
Yeah be uh yeah, we we I think we tried to. We try to get you up there for some rock picking this year, but it didn't didn't see you show up.
I was had a busy summer.
We had a place for you to stay, had had everything all set up, had had everything and you just just didn't show up.
I I mean it wasn't confirmed.
Yeah, it was. It was always a tentative.
I wanted to go everybody. Everybody wants to come pick rocks.
I would love picking rock.
Surprisingly well, the next project, we're gonna we're gonna put you on a dozer. Now you don't see and see what you can do, you know, I mean I've seen the the you know, the skills you have to scare possums, and I wonder if you can like channel something with that to like maybe pull it into golf design or something like that with building or something.
I don't I don't think I'm gonna be very useful. I've never been you know the uh, but.
I'll give it a try.
You know, one thing Andy is.
Those who can't do right Yeah, we'll say is.
That, you know, the years of watching the Frida Egg and listening to you on the podcast and in the work that you've been doing, I'm very appreciative of of of the of what you've been doing and pushing and uh firing some shots out there and and and making people question what they're doing and and how they're going about things. I think you've made some big impacts on it, and making on a few things that have happened in the in the industry of making people question why are
we going down this path? And and and can we do things better? And and I appreciate that, uh honesty that you have to people and and and I look forward to more of that and uh and and.
I just hope I don't let you down like when you wanted me to come pick rocks.
No, you you've redeemed yourself. So's I still will remember that that you're gonna have to You're gonna have extra rock picking duties on the next project.
You know, you gotta just you gotta get send me a formal invite. I gotta get it on the calendar. And that's uh.
And I'll put in I'll have a tenerary for you in the Google Maps, like to get you a zacht to the place that you need to go.
If you talk to missus Friday, you know you'll find.
That time management and and and and I kind of trusting the Google Google Maps and things like that is uh, probably something they shouldn't do.
I'm I'm a self sabotager, Isn't it?
Isn't it? Also because like Chicago is all graded out, you know? Is that why when when you when you work off a grid system on roads where you kind of know where you need to be, and then you get in these other cities that don't have a grid system and you just get lost. And I get you end up like trying to get the winter Park, but you like end up in Mam Millennia somewhere on like I four and like five twenty eight, which is like an hour and like well like two hours from Orlando.
Now I get lost, you know, I wake up lost.
So it's well, you found you found winter Park, which was a good thing, and you're actually on time.
I've been here like three times. I know, you know, I get lost just in general with life. So yeah, I'm sure I probably you know, my there are a lot of skills that I don't have.
But we're all we're all learning, and uh that's that's that's good.
So thanks for coming on, and uh, well next time, hopefully we'll be talking after your next uh your your eighteen first eighteen hall.
Hopefully of course. Yeah, so thanks Franks, Andy