All right, we're back for another episode of the Friday Podcast, and tonight we have guests and other architecture guests. We have Keith Rebb with us. Keith is a long time associate for Core and Crenshaw. He recently completed his first you know, independent design. He partnered up with Riley Johns to do a makeover of Orlando's Winter Park project. So you may have seen Keith. He's been making a lot of appearances on the Golf Channel, becoming quite the TV celebrity.
Uh so we're excited to have Keith on. Keith, thanks for coming on.
Hey, thanks, Andy, I appreciate it, you know, thanks, thank you for the listeners to tune in. I'm sure a lot of people like, who is Keith Reb you know, and why are we why are we tuning in? But hopefully at the end we kind of who I am and you know, kind of what what what I've been doing? So thank you for having me on.
Yeah, for sure, we're excited to talk architects. So, you know, I think you've got a very interesting story about how you got into architecture. You know, it was kind of an unconventional way, So why don't you tell the listeners. You know how you became a golf course architect.
Well, I mean it kind of first starts in Lincoln, Nebraska. You know, I was doing concrete work. You know, fifteen years ago. If you would have talked to me, I would be standing in concrete with a concrete loop in my hand, watching concrete come out of the back of the truck, you know. And you know, I kind of thought that, you know, this isn't exactly what I want to be doing. And I went and interviewed with Landscapes and Limited, a golf course development company in Lincoln, Nebraska.
I got hired on the spot and packed everything up the next week and I moved to Agar, South Dakota, a town of fifty people, to live in a trailer down by the river. And you know, I mean that's that was the start. You know, I'm mean, making a big move, going to a place that I need have
never been to. And you know, once I stepped on that golf course is a Grand Marsh design and and I looked out there and and you know, over the lake and everything there, I was like, man, this is you know, this is what I want to be doing. And you know, just you know, really fell in love with with being outside and and doing that, and so that I mean, that's kind of the first start of getting into golf. You know, I didn't you know, as a kid. I wasn't like, you know, aspiring to be
an architect or anything like that at that point. But you know, it's like more and more just seeing different golf courses and being exposed to these different places and working with Bill and Ben. It just you can't help but just fall in love with, you know, this business.
So I'm kind of kind of curious, you said, you so when you go on site, few typical we just live right on the golf course.
Uh, you know, you try to find some of our close I mean, you know that that place when I was at a gard the only place that we could live. You know, you you have the people there set you up a place to live and who you live with. You know, it was an interesting kind of set up there. I got sent out there, and then I and that Lloyd, a guy that I worked with there that started at the same time, you know, probably about my dad's age, and and that's who my roommate was going to be.
You know, so we're living in this trailer. You know. I mean it's kind of I go into a little funny story that I've told the Riley and Trevor of some.
Of these guys.
But you know, we we'd work all week, long, long hours, go home and I kicked back in a recliner and Lloyd would, you know, have a couple of bud lights and then fall asleep on the couch. But he'd always eat Ritz crackers. And it was just one funny one day We're sitting there and all of a sudden I look over always passed out, you know, sleep and and there's a mouse that came out of the couch and
just eating crackers. You know, it's just it's just you know, these funny stories of these places that you're eating, you'll live at and and you know, just looking over the mouse, you know, eating crackers. And I don't know, funny stories maybe for some, but yeah, I uh, it resonates with me.
I used to work for a tech startup and I had to travel from city to city and we stayed in just the worst places. And one of them we stayed we were staying in l a and we had this mocking bird and we were staying in like a double wide trailer, and this mocking bird would would come out at like midnight every night and just tweet like all night long. But one of my buddies he would go out and spray it with a hose at like
three in the morning. It was awful. The funny funny things of you know, remote work.
Yeah, yeah, So, I mean that's you know, that's kind of one of those places you always try to find somewhere close just so it's convenient. So you moved to different places.
So then and so you're kind of working along there and Phil and Ben are get their get their contract to do Colorado Golf Club and and you get to start working with them. Tell tell me a little bit about how you got looped in with Coren Crenshaw and that was, you know, one of their earlier projects. If I have my tea, Yeah, so, you know.
I'm working with Landscapes Unlimited for about three years and then I get assigned to go to work at Colorido Golf Club. Landscapes Unlimited was the contractor for Friendshaw with the designer. So I was just kind of working, as you know, just a utility guy working on skid loaders,
tractors or anything like that. And you know, I still remember it to this day, you know, meeting Phil and Ben on the fourth fair way out there, and you know, I was just picking out a little ravine and you know, I think at that time I didn't even know that I was maybe big and though possible bunker or something, and you know, Bill and Ben, you know, came up and then Bill was like, you know, yeah, why don't you just dig this out a little bit here, maybe
kind of little here, but just have fun with it. I just thought, like that concept always stuck with me. His thinking of just have fun, and I guess just thinking of that and kind of the contractor mode have
fun with it just didn't really I guess connect. And I just think, you know, when Bill mentioned that, you know that that was really a neat thing, you know, just go out and have fun and you know, and kind of what happened was, you know, as working and seeing the course evolved over time, a lot of the guys got called to go to Sooro and Wikipaw in Arizona to go work on that golf course. So they
kind of got pulled to the next one. And there was a little nine hole, little part three course that that that needs to be built and and they kind of you know Bill, and then that gave me a chance. You know, that was the first first opportunity to actually shape something or build a green or build a bumper.
And you know, I was able to work with Dave atlin h just a great guy, I me know, a great friend, a great mentor, I mean, someone that that it was so neat to work with Dave because he had so much knowledge and so much experience, and then me just being like a greenhorn, you know, coming in. But then yet both of us just working together and having a lot of fun, and he could teach me things.
You know. I just remember one day when I was we were going to go look at a green and and and I kind of forgot to move the dozer, you know, so we walked back at the tea and then look at this green. But then I parked the dozer right in the front of the green. You know, he just like Keith, you know, you're showing your horns, you know, you know, you're showing your greenhorns, you know. And it was just, you know, it's just neat working with Dave. And we had a lot of fun. And
I think a lot of people really enjoy that. That's that's part three golf, part free course of Colorado Golf Club.
Mm hmm. That's uh. I'm hoping I saw there they got the mid am in a few years, so fingers crossed, I'll I'll get out there to play and that if not sooner. But yeah, I've heard nothing but great things about uh Colorado Golf Club. And then, uh, you've got to you kind of are You're a big fan of the short course, right, you.
Know, Yeah, I I am, you know what I mean. You know, I'm not I'm not the greatest golfer either, you know, So I mean I enjoy kind of getting out there learning the game and and not getting beat up, and and and and having fun. And I think that's I think that's a lot of things that we need to get back to. It's just having fun, you know, getting getting around with a couple of buddies, you know'll just shoot some shots and match play and you know, just enjoy the game the way it should be played.
And yeah, that's that's that's.
I just hope we get back to the roots, you know, And it looks like it's slowly getting that way. With a lot of hor it seems like more courses are you know, adding a short course, you know, and it's it's exciting to see that.
Yeah, I think a great bootprint is you know, taking courses, making them less holes and taking out some of the bad holes, making like things like putting courses or like little three hole courses that somebody can go out and play and play three holes in forty five minutes.
You know.
I think one of the things golf can do is create more ways for people to to do it quickly because it's you know, and in today's day and age, I think it really needs to compete. Have petitive options for like somebody's workout time. You know, people carve out an hour for working out, Like why can't we figure out a way that's more fun than you know, hitting a bucket range boss for an hour, you know, whether it be putting courses, short courses, you know, short loops.
So I'm on board with that, exactly, I am one hundred percent. So I guess, you know, kind of to go back to a little bit of the you know, so after Colorado of off Club, you know, kind of still working for landscapes and limited it's a little bit later in the few years down the road, I get a call, you know, to to come out to sugar Loaf Mountain in Claremont, Florida to be the first official
you know project to work for court Friendshaw. So, you know, getting that phone call, I'm like, you know, I'm in Colorado, it's snowing. I'll be in Florida, you know the next day. So that that was the you know, that was the first first, the official court Friend Shop project that I worked on. You know, the others were with with landscapes.
So sugar Loave's got kind of an interesting story. It's like one of those you know, golf courses that has the sad end. So tell us, tell us a little about sugar Loaf then you know the course for those that you know don't know about it.
Yeah, I mean, Sugarloaf Mountain is the second highest point is Florida. It's on sugar stands. It's it's a really neat site. You really don't feel like you're at you know, you don't feel like you're in Florida when you're on that site, you know. I mean it was just it was right at two thousand and eight, you know, I mean, the bubble was bursting it was going to be real estate driven. You know, it was probably not you know, really didn't get out there in the media, didn't get
the exposure that it needed to. You know, it struggled, and then it finally uh went back to nature. You know. I mean, you go back there right now. I went back there a couple of years ago. Together. There's still bunker rakes and old bunkers, and you know it's basically you know, tuble weeds and and the nettle grass, and it's it's a shame. It's it's a great sight. You know.
I would love someday for someone to figure out a way to disconnect the real estate with it and be able to bring that course back to life.
Yeah, I can only imagine. I get sad when I read about golf course clothings. But like, I mean, like, how sad were you when you heard of the news that it was kind of shuting down when like, you know, you spent like months of your life, you know, pouring sweat into it.
I mean, you know it does it doesn't bother you a little bit, you know. I mean all these guys with four printshout that I work with, you know, they put their hearts into the building the best golf they can and and Bill and Ben and and everyone. You know, they they put it, they put themselves into it, they put their heart into it, and it's defing worse than seeing it. Just you know, go away. You know it's done, it's closed down, the doors are shut. I mean, you know,
it's still kind of weird. You go out there to drive by the golf course and they still have the old sign up, like you know, Bill and Ben's first golf course in Florida. You know, I mean it's it's uh, it's tough. I mean, you know, maybe someone will go out and take a look and realize the potential is sight and you know, bring them back out there.
So it's uh fingers crossed. That's why. You know, as long as it doesn't turn into houses, it's got.
A chance, right, yeah, exactly.
So I think you know, obviously Core and Crenshaw, since you know, they are become the primo guys and golf course design and are kind of leading this charge of the you know Golden age, like kind of the new Golden age of architecture with Dope and Bill Hans and all, you know, these young off and comers, you know, having
worked with him for like ten plus years. Now, what's something that you've noticed that they do so well that like, you know that the common person might overlook, and you know or even the you know, sharpest of architecture geeks would overlook that they do just so well with their sites. And why you know these all these sites turn out such big successes.
I mean I would say, is uh. I mean probably one thing. You know, there's no ego there, the egos aren't there. They know how to bring the best potential out of the people that they're working with, but also the site. You know, Bill is the best at like you know, bringing the potential out of the people that
he's around. You know, I mean everyone's got, you know, a talent or something to bring to to a site, and if you kind of limit the input or the people that's involved, you tend to lose the potential to site. And I think that's one thing that Bill and Ben and a lot of these other guys know how to bring the right people and talented people together and the team together too to really bring the project to you know, bring out the again potential of the projects.
So with the you know, the you know kind of team like what's typically a you know, a build team, look like on a daily basis that at a site. So like you're working on the new course at Big Seater Lodge now, like you know what what type of you know, what's the side of the team that you guys usually have out there.
I mean right now we've got you know, Jimbo right, great shafer, awesome shaper Bill with Phil and Ben forever, very talented guy you know out here, and you got Jeff Bradley you know aka bunker Do up out here doing the bunkers, you know what I mean? So you have different specialists you know that that do that that are on the site. You know a lot of times
it's three four four guys. It's just you know, different sites have different things, you know, Like when I was out in Tasmania, it was just Dave Axton and myself and and then we uh, you know toss the on you know, the guys locally there on how to you know the build stuff and and and finish things.
So mm hmm, what would you say, is you know your favorite site that you've worked on? Is it you know, Winter Park or was it one of the core crunch Off.
Sites you know, I get I get that quote question quite a bit. They lost farm Tasmania, Barnbougle to working at Cava Cliffs, you know, stream Songs, Old Town, you know, Yokohama, a country club in Japan. You know, I mean they all have their own little characters to them. I mean it's it's hard to pick one out that would say would be the best. But you know, I mean Tasmania was just you know, a really neat site, all sand and working with the owners there was just a really cool, cool place.
So h So you know, it's listed you as a shaper, so for you know, just the maybe novice architecture fans, could you walk through you know, like what you know a shaper does? And you know how how you know, how do you get good at shaping?
You know? I mean I guess you know how you get good a shaping as I think you kind of start from, you know, a shovel, You start from, you know, shoveling things. You kind of learn how to build things, you know, by hand, and then you kind of work your way up. You know, you get more opportunities to get on different pieces of equipment, like maybe a skid loader or a miniac and then an estivator and then the dozor you know, it just it takes a lot
of patience. You know, it's it's you know what we do is you know, we're normally shaping bunkers or fair ways or greens. And it's just I don't know, it's it's what I look forward to. It's like my office each day. You know, I hop in a dozer and and I can move earth and and be creative. And you know that's one thing that then, which is so neat out here, that is they don't put you in a box of like here's exactly you know, this is exactly what you need to build, here's a plan. You
got to hit these grades. You know, they're like, you know, this is what we're kind of looking at. You know, but if you but if you see something or something happened, run with it. You know, they never put you in a situation where they're trying to put you in a box. They give you a lot of creative freedom out there.
And I mean that's what just makes it so much fun is that you know, each day out there you're doing something a little different and you're just being able to have fun and not worrying about making a mistake or having Bill and Ben or someone come out and say, you know, man, that's you know, what did you use it? You're messed up or something like that. They would never
do that. And sometimes if if a mistake happens or something like that, it's it's it ends up being something that's even better than what anyone would have thought would happen. So it's it's really neat working with Bill and Ben and they really give you that creative freedom and you never have to worry about making a mistake out that's that's awesome.
It's the it's usually the way people do their best work is when they have the freedom and know that you know, if I do something and I believe that, you know, they're going to back me out. But it's I mean, that's cool. What's your favorite kind of feature to build? You know, whether it's not necessarily while you're building it, but like, what do you what do you think is kind of like the coolest feature to put on a golf course?
I guess you know features I would say, you know, like a picker slope or something like that. You know, if there's a certain slope that it's someone's flazer going to reward it and then they might not know, like, hey there's a little slot here in my fifteth year that the ball might run. You know, that's just one thing that Bill. You know, you see the influences that.
Your favorite Golden Age architects. Obviously we we like Golden Age architects, but the Frida Egg would love to hear kind of in your studying, you know who kind of stands out in your mind.
I mean I would definitely say one hundred Perry Maxwell, you know, I mean having the opportunity to work at Old Town and seeing how he laid that golf course on the land and the greens and you know, the little Maxwell role and things like that that he has in those dreams. I mean, you know what I mean for me, you know, not really coming up being like, Okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be an architect.
You know, Perry Maxwell was a banker, fell in love with the game, and then let that love kind of
transition into act actually becoming an architect. So I kind of, you know, I kind of relate to that, you know, and it just I mean, Old Town is just a special place I mean you get a chance to get out there and look at that, you see the influences that that had on Bill Bill's design, which is really neat to to kind of come full circle to be on that side to say, now I kind of get why Bill builds a certain contour or or maybe this
certain type of drain. So that that I think definitely, uh, Harry Maxwell, and I look forward to as I have time off to go look at more of his his courses.
Yeah what what what his courses there highest on your kind of bucket list to see?
I mean Verry Prairie Dunes. I mean you can't you know, you Hutch in Kansas know that or worked out there a lot, and that was what was cool about old And again I'm working with Dave Exlin again, you know him and I are working on that, you know, as a team. So yeah, I mean just you know, I mean,
you know, you just you get this architecture. You start, like you said, when you first get out there and you start first getting that little taste of what it is, and you kind of get to see it on the ground and you see that and it gets you and you want to learn more and you want to go
search out different golf courses. And I mean that's the biggest thing for me, is like, you know, coming from more of the construction side of things, there's more that I look forward to seeing more of these golf courses because I can look at it a way of like, Okay, how do you build that? You know, not just how is it design? But then how can I actually build that? And what equipment would I need to build something? Neat
like that? So I think kind of coming from it from a different angle, I mean for me, it's that's that's what I look forward to, is it is searching out more of these golf courses and in learning more. I mean I'm always learning.
So yeah, I think that everybody is always learning. With architectures, h There's there's infinite cool little courses to see. I mean I feel like I add ten courses I want to go to every day, and it's you know the tough part about it. Hopefully in a lifetime you'll get to see all of them, but very unlikely that's going to happen.
Yeah.
So you know, in terms of you know, if you were going to describe what your dream project to work on would be, you know, what what what type of things would you know be the five characteristics that you'd say, you know, this is the ideal project and situation I'd want to build my own course on.
Well. I mean, I think the first you start with team. You know a bunch of guys that you know, all get along. You know, they they don't have egos, you know, they they like to collaborate and and just have fun, you know. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when you see these golf courses being built and everyone's having fun. I think it kind of gets in the DNA of that golf course and and it shows like, you know, these guys really enjoyed being here and they
have fun building the soft course. And I think that's the biggest thing is is you know, if you have the team of guys you know like Riley Trevor, you know, Andrew Littlefield, you know, all these different I mean Blake, I mean you could go on and on of these guys that just love what they do. They're very creative, but they don't let egos get in the way. You know, there might be a thing where and also put Day there.
I gotta put Day backs on of course because he's just no ego, greatest guy to work with, and it's just where you can say, hey, I'm stuck here, why don't you come over here and work on this and and kind of see what you can do, you know, And I think that's that's what makes it so much fun, is when you know each person can kind of put their layer creativity on a site. And that's what I
look forward to. So my dream site would be working with a bunch of people that love love the game of golf, love architecture, no egos, and and want to have fun and and build you know, cool golf.
Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's best.
Work and it and on top of that sand site, sand site on the coast, so you kind of add the most maybe in Tasmania or somewhere you know, so you know, you kind of add some of those things into it. But it just for me is just the group of guys you have together. If it's a hard, rocky site, you still got guys that are enjoying it and having fun and like to get along and build google. I mean, if it's a rocky site or if it's a sand site, it's about it's about the team.
So MH. It's I mean, how much harder is it to shape stuff with the rocky site? I mean obviously stand I you know, you can see how you can just move it to every way you want it to move. But with rocky site, you know what, what kind of do you have different strategies? Like what do you have to do to you know, kind of get it into an ideal, you know, the way you want it.
I mean, you know, first you're looking at you know, just the cost. I mean you're looking at the equipment, the amount of equipment and heavy equipment you have to have on a site to move the rock or we'll cut through the rock, or if you have to blast. You know, then you think about how you get the irrigation took around. I mean, there's so many things that you know, become more of expense. You know.
It's just that it sounds like just don't build on a rocky site.
Well, I mean it also it depends on how I get what kind of rock.
I mean like out.
Here at the ridge course out here, you know in Branson, it's rocky soil, but it breaks up pretty easily. I mean you can rip it and kind of break it up, and we're kind of on ridges, so we don't really get into the heavy rock. So I mean, but but if it's a site you're you know, you're you're blasting a way, then it's kind of like you got to kind of take that in consideration. Is this is this worth the cost? You know? I mean, are we just wasting someone's money here to get a couple of good
holes and then the rest are just mediocre? I mean that's what you always got to look at on a site. What the potential of the full side is not just to have one great signature hole and then walk away and the rest are like mediocre. So, you know, it's just I think I think the biggest thing is just really gonna think about the money you're spending on your client, you know, and making sure that you know you can get the full potential out of a site and not waste their money. Huh.
Yeah, I mean it makes a lot of sense. It's, uh, you have to have eighteen good holes. If you want to have a great course, they have to you have to have eighteen great holes, you know.
Yeah, I mean those.
Are the courses that stand out, and are you know, at the top of the list.
You know, I think you know, Bill always explained it, like, you know, it's it's kind of like a roller coaster, you know, not every hole can always be at the very top, you know, and you're going down as a great you know, you've got to have you know, connecting holes and stuff like that, and you've got to have
a good balance, you know. And and it's like, you know, so many sites are just sacrifice for or to We're going to get this one hole out here, and then the rest of the golf course isn't gonna isn't gonna fit, you know. I mean I think Cabot Cliss is you know,
the perfect example of that. I mean, you know, Bill has this amazing sight that you know, be Ben Callender you know, had out there, and you know, Bill's like, you know, you really need to get you know a little bit more properly over here, and you really need to get this, you know. You know, and when a lot of times a lot of people would say, oh, well this is good enough. We'll do this and we'll just build the rest of these holes, you know up
here in the trees. But we'll have a couple holes out here that you know, you can see the ocean front. So I think that's you know, a really neat thing that Bill you know, won't just settle for a couple of good foals, that he wants to make sure that if he's going to be there, that again he can get the full potential out of the site, you know, for that client.
Yeah, I mean, and they've no arguing the work they've been doing. Like I mean, it's so many, so many great golf courses. It's cool to see and so you know, let's let's switch gears and move more into you and Riley's work at winter Park. So you know, the training wheels were off. Now you were out on your own. You got your name on the project. So for those of listeners that aren't familiar, I'll put some videos in the in the podcast page that the Golf Channel has
done a great job with. But the background of Winter Park is, you know, it was a kind of overgrown municipal golf course that the community kind of banded and said we want something better. So you know, it's keys. I'm sure you can color it in more. But I'd love to hear about how you guys got involved, how you you know, on the project, and then we can talk more about you know, the project as a whole.
Yeah, definitely. So I guess you just I guess you got to kind of start at square one. You know, you got you got residents there like Matt Haggerty and Gary Deal and you know, they they they saw their golf course there and you know, they loved it, but they they saw the potential. They said, hey, we we could be we can be better. So you know, what do these guys do. They they put together a cast force that then reported to the governor, I mean the mayor there to kind of give him input like, hey,
this is what we're looking at. You know, here's you know, Matt Haggerty works at the golf channels, you know a lot of great golf courses. You know, Gary's been in the field too, so they have, you know, their expertise and their input, and they brought that to to the mayor, you know, to say, hey, like I really think we could be better. So they start task force. They went to the task force and they kind of dust deeper into the golf course and realized that there's a lot
more work to be done. You know, it's this isn't just a you know, do a couple of greens and and everything's going to be great. You know, the golf course greens had roots growing in them, you know, so they're mowing over roots. You know, the the graph is mutated, the course is stashed over so it doesn't drain properly. So you know, so they went to the mayor, they
went to the task force. They put out an RFP I put together a team with Riley and and and Don Halfney to to put together a team that could get the job done in the timeframe that they needed it done. So, you know, when they were looking at us, they they saw that we would be on site and every day, and they saw a really big benefit that So that's that's awesome.
So you know, you go down there, how long did the project take and kind of you know, walk us through a little bit of you know, kind of your vision, uh for the golf course.
Yeah, so it was, uh, you know, three of us out there. So you know, Riley, myself and Blake Coone and you know, we you know, three guys out there, you know, out there shaping building bunkers, you know, fairways and everything. So it was it was three months, three guys and a d three you know, that's that's what we kind of we always kind of laughed a little because the D three doser is you know, we ordered
a D five, but we get a D three. You know, it's very small doser compared to what we needed to get the job done. You know, so it you know, it was, uh, it was exciting to work with with, you know, just like minded people that were out there to to get the best out of the golf course. I mean, it was I'm trying to think of how to really explain it, but I mean it's just you know it, but I don't know really how to Yeah, I don't really know together.
I mean I imagine it's you know, it's a it's a crowning achievements. You know, your first golf course with your name. It's got to be something that's kind of crazy. It's hard to you know process. I'm sure when you think back to where you're peign concrete.
Right, yeah, I mean you know to think that, you know, you you take all those experiences you have and in all these different sites that you worked on and you get a chance to bring all your experiences that you have to municipal golf course. You know, we were coming off of like Habo cliffs. You know, these are top one hundred golf courses in the world that we're working on, and we get to bring the experience that we have to to municipal golf course, you know, for a community
in Winter Park, Florida. I mean that's you know that that was a neat opportunity to bring that experience and and that was you know, yeah, I mean I guess it's you kind of sit back and you kind of look at that like, you know, wow, you know, to bring to to to give back in a lot of ways to a game that's you know, given so much to me, to give back to a community where you know, when we're out there first starting the project, you know, we're watching you know, young, old, you know, blue collar,
white collar, no collar, you know, out there golfing. You know, this is this is the roots of community golf. And it's like, we can't mess this up. Yeah, we had the pressure. We had the pressure on us, and then we also had you know, the golf channel, you know, I mean the golf channels right there. You know, Matt Hagerty, you know, you got Matt Janella, you got these guys
that this is their home course. You know, these guys drive by this course every day, and you know you can't you can't mess this up, you know, and and you can't come out here and do everything that you've always wanted to bill on every golf course. And you got to make it, you know, playable, and it's got to be affordable and and you know, there's so many things that go into your mind when you're when you're starting a project. You know, when you get to the end,
you're like, did did we achieve our goal? And you know, I really think we we we achieved the goal. When you know you're sitting in the clubhouse and guys are laughing and you're cheering, and you know they're just having a blast out there playing fun golf. And they're like, you see me carry you know, the trees on number six to to carry the green? Or can you believe that bunker shot? Or you know, those type of things.
Are the guys that come into the clubhouse and they're like, we just played nine, but we want to go out and play another nine. You know, that's that that's or or the or the kid that it's his first first round of golf. You know, a dad and his son, you know, and the and the and the kids keen off off the deck with the driver, you know, and and he hits it out there about fifty yards, you know, to see that, you know, yeah, after you work so hard to achieve what you know, to grow the game.
So yeah, it's I mean, the I think it's a it's sort of I'm excited. I'm gonna get to go down there and play in January and you know, I'll put a hole right up. But you know, from everything I've seen in the pictures you've sent me before and after, I mean, it's a total transformation, and I think you know, it serves as kind of a blueprint for you know, community golf and municipalities and you know what you can
do with you know, it's relatively lean budget. But you know, everybody wants to go with a you know, an established name, but a lot of times the best way to go is to go with the the you know, up and coming you know, people that are passionate and that have all this. You know, you have worlds of experience and you know, have learned from the best in the business, and giving somebody a shot is so you know, it's it's they're gonna you know, like they're going to work
their you know, tails off for the project. And I think that's the cool thing about the whole project was that, you know, with it with the big names and the golf channel involved, that you and Riley and Blake got you know, you got to shine when I'm sure you were up against some bigger name people.
Yeah, you know, I mean it was. It's it's very humbling too to think that, you know that the city put full trust in us. You know, how many how many opportunities where someone gives you that chance, you know, so we we trust you. You know that the city never said, you know, well, this is the way we do it. You know, they you know, the leader, you know, with the mayor, Steve Leary. I mean you can't I can't say enough about that leadership. And in water Park.
If more governments, in local governments ran like winter Park, I mean we'd be we'd be in a whole lot of better place in this country because with his leadership, is is what made that golf course. They put the trust in us, They they gave us the resources that we needed to be successful, and you know we uh, I really think we delivered for them. And you know it's just now. That's the biggest thing is someone puts
a trust in us. We're you know, we're gonna we're going to try our best to deliver every time for for a client, and you know, that's it's it's it's just a really neat story and how it all went down. And and I really think that if it's it's kind of a blueprint that I hope a lot of unique golf courses can can can maybe look to call up when a part you know, hey, we have this golf course. You know, we're losing money. It's it's it's not going well.
I mean, I think we're gonna have to sell the thing and it's going to turn into a parking lot or or condos. What what? What? What did you guys do here at winn a part? And maybe it might save a lot of these golf courses where you know, this is where kids learn how to play golf, you know, and this is how we're going to grow the game.
So I just hope that a lot of people look to win a park and can contact you know, the task force in the mayor and get the information and kind of get that blueprint, and you know, hopefully you know, if it's us or someone else, you know, it's if it's it's just so mini golf can win and grow.
So yeah, I think it's a it's a core part. I grew up playing. I grew up and learned the game on a municipal course. So you know, I ride my bike to the golf course with my golf bag and just you know, in the summers and spend all day there. So you know, having a cool place to play would be you know, where you have to hit shots and you learn strategy versus you know, the state of most MENI golf courses is just you know, rip it and and and chip it. So that I want
to get some Twitter questions. We got a couple here. One of them is from a buddy Ors Trevor. Yeah, yeah, trev So he wants to know what advice you have for young people trying to learn your craft.
You know, I would say, I mean, in my case, you know, I saw a really big benefit and working for a contractor, like a golf course contractor, you know, the chance to kind of get some experience, you know, work, you know, work a summer for for a golf course or local golf course, you know, doing grounds work or or go work for a golf course development company for
a summer, you know, get get experienced. I would say, you know, you just you know, take ownership and work hard and don't lean on a shovel, don't don't sit down in the bun you know, just just work hard. And the people that are you know, in place to the leadership will notice that effort and then they might say, hey, you know, why don't you hop on this excavator or why don't you say I'm why don't you coming on Saturday on your day off, I'm gonna teach you how
to run a del you know. I mean, there's more of affluence for someone to give you that chance to learn another craft. If you're working hard, you know, and you're showing that effort, people will make the effort to teach you. And I mean that's the biggest thing for me is that you know, I'd love to you know, teach guys how to you know, I've had guys teach me.
You know, I want to be here if if there's people out there that like gave as from the thing, that give me the chance to to get on a piece of equipment or be creative and there's a lot of people that have been helped to have given me that chance. And you know, I'd love to give that chance to anyone that on different projects, if people want to come out and and work hard. And so I think, you know, first is you know, see if this is right for you. I mean, this isn't right for everyone,
you know. I mean, you know, we're traveling and I'm I'm at home, you know, sometimes maybe eighty days a year. You know, I'm on the road, you know, away from my wife. And you know, I mean, I'm I'm very lucky that I have a wife that supports you fully and and and loves your traps. But sometimes it's not it's not exactly for everyone, you know. I mean, we're it's kind of a funny business where we're always working ourselves into unemployment. We just finish a project and the
lune employee, you know. I mean, so it's you know, I would just say, have a positive attitude, take ownership about whatever you're doing, and people will give you the chance to move up. And and I think that's my opinion on my best advice for for how to to learn.
M It's it's a lot like you know, work hard and try and try and be there and be ready.
I mean, there's just there. There there's no shortcuts, you know. I mean when when you try to take a short cut, you're going to get found out. I mean, so yeah, it's definitely. Ah, it is a fun business. It's very rewarding, but it does have its sacrifices. You know, you have to realize that you there's a lot of uncertainty if you're looking for a plan on whether it's going to
be the next day or the next month. You know, I don't know what what next next project I'm going to end up when I'm after this project, you know, and so you never know. So yeah, when you even accept the uncertainty, if your person that can do that, then this might be the right business.
Yeah. Yeah, it's to probably be good for you know, anybody that kind of can happy to float, you know.
Yep.
Yeah. So we got one from Andy Roderick, who you know, he's qualified for the US four ball in the spring, so it looks like he's going down to play Dormy Club while he's down there, so you know, he wants to kind of know what what he can expect from Dormy Club. And you know you having worked on it, you know, I played it. I got to played. I really it's a great golf course. Would love to hear your experience out there.
Yeah you know, I mean you no, I finished up at cir Mountain and then I got sent out there for a little while. I was only there for a short time. It's kind of was it was kind of in the construction phase where you could only work on thirty two acres at a time, so you're only building like, you know, three holes at the time, then draft those and then you can move on to the exception. So you know, a lot of that golf course. You know, once I left, I didn't really see the rest of it,
you know, completed. I did have the opportunity which was my first you know kind of official court Crenshaw Green that I got to build was number seven out there. Kind of the reverse were dand AR three, you know, fun little shot in there. But I mean, if it's a you know, I want, I went, I got. I went as an old town. I got a chance to go back there and kind of you know, take a little loop and and look at the holes that you
know that that we're finished. I mean, you just you know, you gotta you gotta think about the shots you make in there. You know you can make the ground game is uh, you know there. I mean it's you know, it's just been one of those golf courses that you know, has gone through a lot of different transitions, and you know, from what I hear from different people, it's, uh, it's
it's it's back up there. It's and I don't know what's uh when you were there, when what was your what was your take of of of Dormy Club and the conditions?
And I think it's awesome. It's you got with the greens are like are tough? You know they you got I forget, I forget what hole was you got that? I really like that part four that has that downhill shot with the the waters not in play, but it's over to the right and it's got those cool cross bunkers coming down. I played four.
I don't know, yeah, maybe four kind of has the ravine and the waters off to the Yeah, you know that that's that's a really neat neat meat Bassola.
Yeah, it's you know, for me, that was my first time playing in North Carolina, and I you know, I just the land site and the pines. It's just such a unique golf experience for anybody that hasn't been down there and played that kind of golf. You know, it played firm and fast, you know, the green I loved all like the runoff areas, the fairway around the greens.
That it's one of my favorite features in terms of golf courses is having you know ample you know, slopes and have that ball run you know, if you miss that green, have it run twenty yards and staying fairway because I think that it's so cool. It's such a unique test and unique shots. Coming back from those.
Yeah, definitely makes you think about what shot you're taken, and they're not just you know, your standard. You know, the golf course isn't dictating what you what you have to do, which is so great on Court French House site that you know, the golf course isn't going to say, well,
you got to hit this shot. You know, you have options, you know you're going to use every club and you're bad, you know, I mean, it's just you know, I mean, it's just the great you know characters of a court Friendshaw projects.
Yeah, and that's you know, one of my favorite you know, architecture kind of principles is I never think that the whole should dictate the type of shot that you have to play, you know, where you know, off the t a slicer and hit a slice, you know, and there isn't all these trees on the left side that that don't let them do that, you know, but there is a specific way that the golf course should be played, you know, where you know certain if you're able to
hit certain shot shapes, you're rewarded for doing so, but you're not, you know, essentially, you know, kindalyzed heavily for not being able to hit a specific shape exactly. It's it's interesting. It's that you know, there's golf courses and just playability is I think the number one thing that golf courses need. Yeah, yeah, I mean every type of player has fun.
Yeah, I mean getting getting that short cut you know, instead of having rough you know in some of those areas between the transitions between a t you know, on some of these like short course like Winter Park, where you know, before the golf course had rough you know, and now we just one cut fair way and dreams. So I mean you're seeing the ball run. I mean these beginners. You know, even if they top the ball and the one burn it down there, they're advancing the ball.
They're enjoying it. You know when you when you put a bunker in front of them or or things like that rough and you just get you know, it gets frustrated, you know. And yeah, and and I think that's I think that's one thing. You know, get get rid of that rough, you know, cut it down shoulder and let people enjoy the game. Don't don't penalize everyone.
Yeah, and then you know, for the better players, you make it about angles, you know, you make it yep. Yeah, you make it so that you know, you want to be on the right side of the fairway and maybe you have you know, you have a bunker over there that you know only they can get to.
I think that's exactly.
Yeah, you make it and that's the strategy. No, no, go for.
Yeah, No, I mean that's I mean, that's one thing I guess, you know, kind of going back to the winter Park thing, I mean, you know, we were we were really stuck and limited because we had roads and we had a ringing, we had we had different things, but we we had to figure out ways to make it challenging for you know, the low handicapper. You know, how is he gonna you know, challenge this person, but
yet not challenge you know, the high handicappers. So I mean, we looked at areas where we still different sets of teas that angled away from bunkers. You know that if this guy, if he carries a bunker, then he's gonna get shaped, you know. But if this dinner player, that buffer isn't even in play because the angle will be set the you know, just kind of keeping you know,
that in mind. And there are different angles and risk reward that you can put into a golf course that you know, I mean, as the person gets furder in their golf games and they start moving back to the further, you know, they kind of move back to this season they you know, I mean even I think I think the cool thing about Winter Park is what we've seen is that even when they shift the keys from not the back kee and they kind of move it up and then some of the as you've been playing the
golf course every day, like wow, you know, this completely changes the whole and this is new and it's neat, you know, so.
Factoring in that, yeah, I mean it's it's kind of fun sometimes to play golf courses. Like, you know, I play the back tis almost everywhere I go. But the thing I used to like to do and a golf course I played a lot is I'd play the front piece like the lady's teeth and see how low I could shoot. And you know, it's actually kind of like
a fun, cool extra size. I mean, like you think, you know, but if it makes you really work on your Like you know, you're driving up by greens, all of a sudden, you have to work on your wedges and you're in places that you're never in before, and you know, it's just a fun way to change things up.
Yeah. I think that's one thing that we kind of you know, one of the parts that we wanted to kind of get people to do is, you know, go play for the pack and play your second nine and play from the four, you know, and then you're playing mating holes and it's got different shots, it's got different challenges, but it's got it makes you think in different ways, you know. So it's like you get your full eighteen in, but you're playing it from different angles and in different feats.
All right, So our last question here is from Robbie Vogel and it's about Cabot. He played it in June and he thought it was incredible. He's wondering if there's any potential or land for a third course, and how much better do you expect the Cliffs course to get as it matures.
You know, I mean you never know. I mean you got the you got the Kaiser factor, you know, my Kayser, you got you know, think klandor up there. I mean, you just never know what they what they have up there sweep you know. Sometimes you know, I could see a short course, you know, possibly being there, you know, I mean I I see growth for you know, another golf course to kind of pull people, to kind of be like a golf Cabot Trail type thing to Ugland people.
I mean, that's that whole area out there. Just but if you can go in the Cabot Trail play you know links, you know, you play Cabot Cliffs, you go to Highlands, you know, and then another golf course, I mean, that's there's the there. There's not many places like that where you could play that high quality golf. So I see that there'll be definitely potential for from more golf up there and for every course. Some Yeah, it just takes it takes time. You know, it will take a
few more years, you know. I mean the thing with with Cliffs is it's so popular that you've got so many people coming there that you just don't want to wear it out. You know, you got the factor all the people playing, but then you got all the caddies on top of it. You think about how much foot traffic you know, you're putting on those greens and around the greens. You know, it's but also you're trying to get that much golf in a small window of the time that you have to actually get golf out there
and Inverness. So I mean it's always as it's a double edged sort there because yeah, you know you want to bring people in and get them out there and enjoy it, but yet you don't want to you don't want to wear it out. But I think it really is the winters. You know, how the winter goes, how how the course winters. If they get snow covered, they get moisture, you know, how those greens come out of the winter the next year. There's always a challenge.
So yeah, I bet that had some interesting constraints to building it. I bet you had a lot of cold days on a dozer out there.
Yeah, you know, it was that. That's probably the most challenging project I've ever worked on, you know. I mean you have a small window of time, you know, and and and all the guys that work on that project just gave their heart and and and made a bunch of sacrifices to get that get that project to where it is now. I mean to debut at I don't know, it was nineteen in the world or or some I don't know, some way up there on the list. I mean, a lot of guys put their hearts into making that
project happen. And it was tough days, I'll tell you it was. It tests you in every which way, and just when you think you're getting it, you know, it would you know, mother nature would come down and and and beat you down. You know. It was a it was a very uh, very tough projects are very rewarding, and I'm just glad that you know, people aren't enjoying it. And you know, Lynks is you know, what Ross Rob's
done out there is an awesome force. You know, It's it's cool that you know, building Ben and and Rod. All these guys you know, get get the work, you know,
close together on the project like that. So and to have Rod work on cliffs too, you know, you know, you kind of dig into the roots of you know, these guys, you know, like doing Bill sitting and Rod and Rob was working at a golf course with them, and they're sitting there, you know, talking about maybe some day building golf courses and then you know, you fast forward, you know, thirty years thereon Rod got a golf course that he designed and then build build a golf course
right next hill. I mean, it's just you know, just cool, cool stories. You could probably still hours of podcasts about, you know, with with with Bill and Ben and day back some stories.
Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, I'm I'm really excited to see your career progress in the coming years and hopefully we'll get you on here, you know, a bunch more and talk about some more cool projects. But really appreciate all the time. I mean, you gave us a good hour plus and I'm sure you had a long day out on the ridge at the ridge course at uh six Peter Lodge and you probably got an early morning tomorrow.
So yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, I just.
Want to think, you know, thank all the listeners too, you know. I mean, you know, this is all kind of new for me that to kind of be out there, you know, to talk about you know what now It's it's sometimes hard for me to talk about what I do because I don't want it to to come across as you know, cocky or have an ego or anything
like that. I mean, it's just you know, we're just you know, guys that are really passionate about what we do and and really want to work with, you know, people that enjoy the game, and you know, we just want to work with cool people and build cool golf. I mean, if we can do that, then you know, golf will win. And you know it's it's not about it's not about the name of who the designer is
or or or who that is. I mean, if it could be more about the golf course and and what that does for a community or the people in that area. So yeah, it's I just really appreciate you know, you you're having me on here. It's always nice to meet people that are passionate about you know, architecture and and find new ways to kind of get the information out to people. And you know, thanks, thanks again for having me on here. I don't hope I didn't mess it
up too much. And my phone dropped out dropped out.
There a couple of times. So this will be this will be your last. Uh you know, we'll kind of. I know that you're up in your game on the podcast thing, so I guess you can go out with a bang on this one thing.
Yeah, for everybody out there, I want to say this is the last, the last podcast without a real microphone. So the podcast is and the next thing we're gonna work on. We're gonna get some entrance music. So yeah, the podcast, but I don't know if we'll get a better guy. So I appreciate the time, Keith, and uh we'll talk soon. Okay, thank you, thanks like you, thank you.
M