I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in.
A brid egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday, Frida Bride Egg Lie.
I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Podcast. Today, I welcome on Keith Foster, a golf course architect who has done many beautiful restoration of classic golf courses across the country and also has built up an impressive list of solo designs.
Keith, welcome up.
Hey, thanks so much Andy for having me. It's my pleasure.
Yeah, excited.
You know talk Golden Age architecture, some of your architecture. I grew up playing Shepherd's Crook, one of your design your public designs, and it's, as I call it, the Crook. I think it's one of the best courses in Chicagoland
that anybody can play. But to kick things off, you know, two of your most dramatic restorations that I've seen are Philly Cricket Club and Marine Country Club, and each of them you've you've taken out quite a few trees, and I would I'm curious what you find to be the biggest misconception with memberships, committees and just golfers in general about trees.
Well, you know, I think, I think Andy, what really happens on trees is that, you know, every golf course, I don't care how old it is or how new it is, there comes a time when someone's going to say, we could put a tree here, we could put a tree there. And older golf courses they fell victim to. You know, when RTJ mister Jones was the man, the open doctor in the fifties, you know, for US open
sites and so on, all these trees got planted. And then Lady Bird Johnson in the sixties through arbor days and so on. So all of these golf courses initially started out not heavily treed, and then over time, you know, trees get planted here and there. And I think what's interesting is most old school golf golf courses tend to be wider in scale, because of course you have wider fairways, you set bunkers on angles, and the game becomes and
should be a more strategic one. But then when trees get planted in the fifties and they're small, and the sixties are small, and all of a sudden, the trees start growing, and it's a slow grow, but it starts encroaching into the golf And then suddenly the ways start moving and shifting away from the trees, and then golf
fairways start getting narrower. And so ultimately what happens is that the golf course, many golf courses, are just skeletons of what they used to be in terms of scale and impact and strategy, so much so that like a golf course like Moraine Wonderful Charming golf course, or Philly Cricket for that matter, most charming great old school clubs, they change the characteristics of their golf course and they become narrow. I call it almost like bowling. Look, golf
is a strategic game. Bowling, you know you're in a narrow lane. And I think dimension is really important in the game of golf. And so you know, I don't really think you can get great restorations renovation work, and I don't think you can return back to something really truly epic unless tree removal is part of it. So if a club is focusing on greens, bunkers, and tees, and they're not really looking at trees. I think they're short sighted.
It seems like, you know, the trees have to come down first, because then when you expand the greens, the edges make all the more sense with the wider fairways.
Right, Well, that's exactly right, and so you know, so so often, you know, everyone focuses on green surrounds, bunkers, and tees because those are the features, and those are the features. But I think the missing component is scale, and scale creates great golf. And you know, there was this big movement towards twenty six yard wide fairways because we all see them at the US Open, and oh my gosh, for the tour players, we've got to create tight hitting areas. But you know, for the majority of us,
you know, we need wider areas to play golf. And even so, the game is a game of options rather than these narrow boundaries. And I think the game of golf is wonderfully compelling when it has options, and we as golfers, have options so that we can, you know, enjoy a more flexible game of golf.
It is a lot of these courses especially the classic golf courses when they hosted these major champions chips. It was in the thirties, the forties, the fifties before all this tree you know planting happened. So their best self was actually when they had the fewest trees.
Yes, and then of course when in the fifties and sixties and seventies and eighties, we see all these national championships being held on for the most part, tree line golf courses. So everyone who's looking at golf on television or or you know, visiting these these big iconic golf courses with trees both left and right, everyone comes back, club members, board members, committee members, club presidents and go, oh my gosh, look what this course has. Then they're
doing it right because they're hosting major championships. So we've got to do that. And then, you know, something so innocent and so respectful of the game, you know, dramatically changes your golf course, and it changes it so slowly over time that you just lose sight of what you had. And that's why I think, you know, return of scale and tree programs are so important, you know, to recapturing the essence of the game of golf.
The effect.
Yeah, so Sam Joe member of my club, or Sam guy with a permanent tea time at a you know, overgrown municipal course. What and I And you know, these are readers or listeners of the of the podcast that understand, you know, they need to cut down trees. What do you think is the best way, since it's such a sensitive topic to go about, you know, getting people on board with getting rid of trees.
Well, you know, so many, so many times everyone starts keying in on the controversial trees, the ones that will have true impact on holes. I tend not to suggest doing that, you know, because I think what happens is that memberships are golf course, you know, guys who play, men and women, you know, need to understand the benefits
of tree removal. So instead of I don't usually attack the big controversial trees first, I try to you know, if there's fifty trees down the left side of one of whole one, and there's one hundred and fifty trees down the right side of whole one, what I'm going to suggest is first taking the weak trees out, you know, and there will be weak trees both left and right, and I just suggest taking the weaker trees out to create space, a little bit of space, and then what
you'll find is no one has any issues with any of that. And then then you're able to push it a little further and say, okay, look we're going to take every fifth tree out here and every seventh tree out there. And so suddenly this golf course starts opening up softly. And then when people start buying into the idea, wait a minute, this does look better. We have more space to play golf, we have different views vistas. Then I think you've got people on board and there'll be
a time to take controversial trees down. But I think so many clubs focus on that one ty tree. Oh my gosh, you know, that's the tree we've got to focus on. I tend to do it the other way, and I believe a softer approach is a better approach in a lot of cases.
Get rid of those evergreens that are just you know, random place next to a tea box.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, in terms of kind of your overarching you know, restoration process, and we'll talk a little bit about you know, restoration since we started with trees, and then we'll get into your solo work. But how does you know the the restoration process start from you know, when you first meet with say a club, to when you start doing work and overtime getting closer to a finished project.
Yeah. So you know, for me personally, I'm more of a relationship person. So you know, when I come in to visit a club, you know, I'm you know, I want to spend you know, the whole day out on the golf course, and I want to go around the golf course. I don't want to walk it quietly if I want to spend time with the super tendant. And I want to understand the golf course right, so I have a general understanding of it, But the key on it is, you know, one, I need to have an understanding. Two,
I need to love the golf course. And I need to see the possibilities as far as what it can be, not what it is, but what it can be and what it should be. So I need to have those things in my head and truthfully in my heart. And then I need to then meet with the committee or the board that I'm going to be meeting with, a group of golfers that I'm going to be meeting with, and really, I just want to listen to them a little bit, and then eventually they're going to say to me, Keith, Okay,
what do you think? And I'm just going to say, Okay, this is what I think, and this is what I think you should be doing, and this is how I believe you could get it accomplished. And then I'm going to look at their reactions to what I'm saying. And you know, you know, I'm a good read generally on people only because I pay attention, and you know, I'm going to look at them and you know, they're either going to look at me and go, guy, Keys, he's clueless,
or you know, what he's saying makes sense. And then based on my relationship with them and their relationship to me, you know, it either affirms or confirms that I shouldn't should or shouldn't be there. And that's key because ultimately I'm going to be forming a close relationship with these people that I'm going to be working with. They've got to trust me and I've got to trust them, and
we're working on this thing together. And I like that because I want to be part of something that's bigger than me, that's important, and I understand the weight of it. And I think that's the real key is that you know, there's been so many golf courses that have been touched too heavy handedly, and so what happens is the work either doesn't endure or doesn't have value. And I'm just
very mindful that I want to produce stuff. I want to produce work that is enduring, that you know, stands a test of time, that is timeless, that is classic, that you know, honors and respects the courses that I work for and who I work for to so so it's all based on relationships, Katie.
How much how much time do you do a lot of work before you even go there studying you know, say old aerols or or you know, I mean, how much of this job when you're doing a restoration as being like a historian.
Okay, I don't before I go anywhere, I don't study their course, I don't look at maps. I don't really care, you know, And I know that's going to be very shocking to maybe you even And I'm not looking at a golf course as an archaeological dig. You know, what I want to do is okay, if it's a tilling has golf course, I understand the characteristics of tilling Has. If it's a Ross course, I understand the characteristics of Ross. If it's Allison, I understand the characteristics of Alison. If
it's Maxwell, I understand the characteristics of Maxwell. So I inherently already have a foundation. And that foundation I have is pretty strong. So I don't need to see what they did here or there. I need to see it in the ground, and I need to feel it in the ground, and then I can see what happened and
what's missing. If I spend a full day out on a golf course, and I would probably say if a golf architect can't do that, the club probably shouldn't hire him, And so, you know, so I can see it, and I think in the end, I just want to talk with people about what they want, what I believe possible, and how we work together on it. Now, if I am the right guy and I am part of it, then I will extra every aerial, every image, everything that I can, so that I have a foundation most importantly
of what it was. And not only you know in the nineteen thirty nine aeril, but I want to track it in forty nine, fifty nine sixty nine seventy nine. I want to be able to track what was done and when it was done and why it was done, so that I understand, you know, what really happened over that eighty or ninety years. And that's equally important because you need to be able to, you know, figure out who did what, when they did it, when the trees
got added, what pa got added here and there. So I'll study all of that once I'm hired, before I craft my first plan.
And then the you know, the master plan, and then it goes through iterations and you you know, you worked a final product and then you start going on a timeline.
Right, Yeah, that's absolutely right.
So having worked on you know, you listed off a hit list of you know, some of the greatest architects of you.
Know, the Golden Age.
Which architect would you say that you've gained the most appreciation for through their work like that, you you know, maybe had one you know, thought of, but now that you've gotten so in the weeds, you just really love like.
What they do.
Well, you know. I think what's interesting is that Alison McKenzie was asked when he was at the pinnacle of his career, why did he think Saint Andrew's is such a sensational golf course. And you know, the comment was made by him, which is he believed that Saint Andrew's was as great as it is because he was convinced that very little was known about golf architecture, and they just kind of took it for what it was. And I think sometimes we overanalyze all this enough, like, for instance, Moraine.
You know, if I mentioned to you Knipper Campbell and all of your antique I'm sorry, your architectural guys who love antique and crafted old kind of golf courses, they would say, who in the world is Nipper Campbell. He's not tilling Has, he's not Alice, and he's not Ross, he's not Mackenzie, he's not Maxwell, he's not Rainer, So how good is his golf course? But the truth is Moraine was done by Knipper Campbell and it was a charming, wonderful,
well thought out golf course. And so you know, I think what's exciting is, you know, to find these gems that are off the radar, and that's the work that I like to do most. I'd much rather take a golf course that you know is is maybe a little of an obscure gem and polish that and reset act because it forces me to pay even more attention to you know, the little nuances in the details, which I really love.
Yeah.
I just finished right in my uh right up on Marine actually this afternoon, and it's like, you know, Nipper, you see so many of the guys that you know, Nipper Campbell had a similar pedigree of a ross And I think that golf course if you put, if you attach a big name architect tech to it, it would have been considered, you know, one of the you know, greatest golf courses in you know, the mid Atlantic or
whatever you call Ohio Dayton, Ohio's region. But because it doesn't have that name brand, it gets kind of hurt. But you go there, and you know, I played my USM qualifier there this year, and I mean I was absolutely blown away getting to play it three times in two days.
It was you know, you.
You gained such an appreciation and it still stands up today.
You know.
And the principles were so simple they use He uses the land so well there. But he's not a household name, but he grew up playing you know, great Scottish courses and then you know it was around great golf in America.
Yeah, And what's nice about that is I was able to take the best qualities that Knipper Campbell did and the areas where maybe I needed to improve or embellish, I was able to do it without having to justify anything. And and so I, you know, I was respectful of Knipper Campbell, and more importantly, I was respectful of Moraine and the ground. And then all I wanted to do is just make sure that Nipper Campbell got the credit. And then I just executed the work flawlessly or the
best I could. And then you know, highlight some of the features that he did do and then insert other elements that are similar or compatible to what he would have done or should have done, and then I just embellished them and executed it, you know, hopefully better than he would have done it back in the day. And you know that's what I try to do.
What what did you say, and what would you find like that? What would you say his weakness was that you kind of worked on the most.
Well, I don't you know, I don't think any golf architect. You know, look when kill he built his golf course back when let's say, or anybody years later, golf course maintenance and practices and all these all of these things that make golf courses now much better and tighter and more enduring. You know, uh, there is no perfect person. There's no perfect golf course architect. You know. Every golf course architect you know produces work based on what they're doing.
I mean, you know, Killing has work has been improved by people working on it and dialing the details in, and Nipper Campbell's work is the same, you know. So I don't really look when I'm working on people's projects like a Maxwell or chilling House or Ross or Nipper Campbell. I don't look at where their weaknesses are. I just look at what they did and how can I take
what they did and make it better. So I don't really look at flaws like my wife will say, my gosh, Keith, you know you know about this person that person, And I just don't hear anything negative. I don't see anything negative. I don't hear anything negative, and I don't ever dwell on negative. I just focus on how it can be better and call it that, and then just try to dial in my work and make it the best that it can be.
See, I need to spend more time with you.
I go to so many you know, I see these like especially municipal courses that are Golden age courses, and you know all that's been done to them and how they've been treated.
I just I get like, I'm.
Excited because they could be so good, but then I'm just so sad about what they are.
Well, And I think what happens unfortunately with municipal golf courses are that at least the best courses in the country are able financially to hire the best golf architects in the country to do the most sensitive work. Okay, municipal golf courses, on the other hand, you know can't take you know, they take the cheapest guy, the cheapest architect, they take the cheapest contractor, and they expect great results
with such great limitations. So the truth is, you know, they have no chance of being really great because you know, they're they're picking fruit, the lowest hanging fruit. And that's no that's no disrespect to the guys that are doing the work. They're doing the best work that they can do. But it's kind of like in my career, if I you know, I believe I am doing my best work ever right now now at thirty thirty five. When I'm starting out, I'm doing the best work that I can.
Then I don't have the wealth of experience that I do now and the weight of my work and my eye and so even though I'm doing the best work that I can at thirty thirty five, I'm probably doing more than I should be. And I don't have the resources, you know, and the appreciation of the game as I do now. And every golf architect's the same way, so
we all have to start out a certain place. And just like me, I mean I started, you know, I played golf on am a municipal golf course because my parents, we weren't country club people, So you know, I grew up on a municipal golf course because we couldn't afford anything better. And I learned playing golf on a municipal golf course because that's all my family could afford. So I come from that kind of grassroot as opposed to a pedigree of you know, playing at you know, exclusive private club.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean I grew up playing the local muni and it's amazing to me how many people that I have on this podcast grew up, you know, playing the local muny that get into golf and do you know, big things, it's a municipal golf is it's such a I've gotten wrapped up into it and it's been it just it drives me nuts.
But then there's also.
Such a beauty to it of you know when you see people out at a good municipal course.
Well, that's right, I mean, and you know that's what's so wonderful about our game. I mean, the game of golf is such an intriguing, captivating game, even at a level at a municipal golf course, there's great charm in it, and I think for most time, I believe it's actually the simplest form and the nicest form of golf where it's just not overdone, and I think, you know, there's great joy in that and just being able to play the game as opposed to expecting everything to be perfect.
Yeah, I was, I was gonna ask, you know, getting into your solo designs, you know, one of the themes I see when I look through them is that so many of them are affordable under one hundred and hundred and fifty dollars, grape spots and areas to play golf. Is that something that you went into you know, the design process with is you know, is building affordable golf?
Actually? No, you know, I wish I could say to you Andy, oh yes, this was something that I wanted to do when I carefully crapped in my career to do that. The simple truth is, you know, when I left art Hills to create my own firm, who was going to hire me? So, you know, the jobs that I could get were the jobs that I got. You know, I believe that I get the work that I'm supposed to get, and I don't get work that I'm not
supposed to get. So when I started my firm, sure, you know, no really high end people that are going to charge huge money are going to hire me. They're going to go Fazio, Rhys Jones and art Hills, the guy that I used to work for. You know, why would they give me an opportunity? However, the municipal golf courses would look at my background, my foundation, and my
fee is cheap. So I got an opportunity there. And so when when I left art Hills to create my own firm, you know the only work I could get and the only work that was presented to me happened to the municipal golf courses. And I started my career and just trying to earn a living doing that. And I felt very, very comfortable doing that because, you know, and it just so happened that they were affordable golf courses and that's where the game was, you know, at
that time. And then all of a sudden, right around two thousand, something happened in my little career. And you know, so for the first four or five years of my career as a solo person, you know, in the late nineties up to two thousand and two thousand and one and two, the only work I was doing was daily fee golf, municipal golf. And I really wasn't working on renovation or restoration of golf courses. I was focusing on, you know, public golf.
What change that you got over to the you know, doing so many restorations. What was the kind of first project or you know, shit turning.
Point, Well, two things happened to me. And the first thing was, okay, so you know, I start my business. I'm in my early thirties, and I'm doing some work and everything's going great. I'm very thankful, I'm very happy. All of it's good. And then a notable club calls me and said, Keith, can you come out and take a look at our golf course? And I said sure, and you know it was it was a notable golf course, right, And so my job was just to make sure that
what they were doing. I'm not rethinking their golf course. I'm just making sure that what is going to be done is going to be done well, you know, because I do have a maintenance background. I do have a construction background, you know, and I worked for Art Hills, so you know, my foundation is pretty solid. But at the same time, I go to Chicago and my mentor takes me to Chicago and this is all around two thousand,
thousand and one. And my mentor, who I have such a great deal of respect for it is probably one of the most talented men in the game of golf. And you're most of the people that are going to listen to your podcast don't even know his name, but he is, you know, he is the most talented, soft spoken, articulate, you know, gifted with you know, with a great eye in the business and so I met him in Chicago and we played two golf courses one day and two
golf courses the next day. We play Shore Acres in Chicago golf one day, and then we play two other big name golf courses. And I don't want to say and the comment, you know, And then he said to me, he said, okay, Keith, what do you think what's the difference? And I said, well, I said, the first day we played enduring classic architecture that was great and always will be great. The second day we played something that's just flash in the pan, that's just overrated and not enduring.
And he said, well, what do you think, Keith? And I said, I don't want to do the latter. I want to be part of only enduring work. And at that time I returned home told my wife. I said, Pam, I'm going to take She said, Keith, what are you gonna do? And I said, I'm going to take less work and I'm going to focus more on making sure if I work on any project that I'm committed to great and I'm committed to enduring work, timeless work, seamless work. And I broke my firm. I just broke my firm down,
and I said, I want to do great. How do I do great? The only way I can do great is spend more time than anybody else is on a job. And I'm going to focus on details, and it's not going to be about me. It's going to be about the game of golf and great results.
I mean, it's a quality over quiet. I have to ask who's the mentor.
So my mentor was a gentleman by the name of Brent Wadsworth from construction. Yes, and but the head of head of Wadsworth is Brent Wadsworth, and Brent Wadsworth. Somehow, when I'm twenty seven years old, I began working for Wadsworth Company, and I had the good fortune that Brent saw something in me and took an interest in me and invested himself in me, and he taught me so much,
and I am just so thankful for him. And I mean, I've worked for a lot of architects, and I've seen a lot of people do work, but you know, his, I his attention to detail, his ability to communicate and and do so in a soft way still to this day,
is just a marvel to me. And you know, I recognized it then and years all these years later, which is what you know, twenty five twenty years twenty five years later, Yeah, twenty five years later, he's still you know, he is my my baseline, and so I have a long way to go to get to him, but you know, just in terms of eye and talent and communication skills and all that, but you know, he is my goal.
Yeah, this is Chicago is an interesting place for it to happen because I mean, I'm from here, so I've got a general idea of where I probably have an idea of one of the courses.
I'm not positive on the second.
But yeah, short akers in Chicago golf are going to be good for probably another one hundred or two hundred years.
Well, you know, look, whatever any of us do in our careers, right, whatever it is, you know, if our work, whatever we do, can endure, you know, no different than art, literature, music, whatever. But if our work can endure and whatever we do, you know, that's that really matters. I mean, you're doing something that is meaningful and you're you know, what you're doing has weight, and that's what I wanted to do. And you know, I don't want to be negative about
anybody's work and what was there. But what it did is it gave me a look at what the difference was. Yes, and you know, and I've always held to that, and I was so thankful that Brent suggests that I come to Chicago and you know, just did that and he let me see the difference and I felt the difference, saw the difference, and committed to the difference.
So you know, it was just changing gears a little.
That I'm curious when you get a course that has like, you know, multiple architects throughout time, like so you know, one that comes to mind in Chicago is like a place like Skoky that's had you know, Donald Ross's work on it, William Langford and Theodorma.
Rowe work on it.
Like how do you go about places that have had you know, change, you know a couple of times throughout you know, their early years from you know, you know, seemingly great architects.
Yeah, so you know, like like for instance, Okay, Skokie. I'm familiar with Skoky to a certain extent, but not really because it's not my project and I didn't study it and I didn't do it right. So but so I can't really comment about that. However, like Philly Cricket, for instance, killing has did the routing and William Flynn came in three years later. Yep, So then I have to extract what Tilly did and what Flynn did, and you know, what had more merit and what was the
reason that Flynn was brought in. So for instance, when Ross comes in and then Langford comes in at Skokey, why you know, you have to ask a question why was Langford brought in? Yeah?
Now that is an example, but I figured you'd have, you know, something else that would be similar.
Yeah, So what happens there is there has to be a reason why another architect was then brought in either you know, either it was architectural, or it was maintenance related or is construction related or you know, for instance, with Langford and Moreau, how about they were based in Chicago. So if Skokey you have Ross, who's not based in Chicago, Ross does it the club has someone that they want to turn to for other things like maybe adding a
bunker here, doing something else. Ringford and Moreau are in Chicago, they seem to be the logical choice, right, So it might be something as simple as that. However, on the other hand, if you have one golf course by a notable architect, you know, where it's really a problem is Okay, Let's say, for instance, Skokie was there, and then you had Ross and Langford Moreau, and then in the fifties and sixties and seventies and eighties it was touched by
three other architects. Then you have to come back and say, okay, what is meaningful and what are you going to strip back? And in that regard, a lot of golf courses have been obviously affected, you know, by many other architects, and many other green committees and many other club presidents. So I think in the end, golf course renovation, restoration, whatever it is, sometimes you know, it's stripping away the work
that shouldn't have been done. And I think ultimately that's what golf course renovation is, and sensitive restoration and renovation is. You have to strip away what shouldn't have been done, whether it's tree removal, t placement, angles fair away with and even other architects. You know, I think most clubs, you know, make the mistake that every architect, if you're a golf architect, you're a golf architect and you're going
to get the same results with different architects. You're not, you know, uh, you know, there's there's levels of expectations and and and gifts and talents and so different golf architects are going to see golf holes differently.
It's and the do It's like one of the beauties of it is that you know, if you give you get if you get thirty golf course architects one land piece of land, you'll get thirty completely different you know works.
That's that's exactly right. However, one of you, one of them is going to produce enduring work. That's the difference. So let's say if you give a golf architect, you know, thirty guys this piece of property and they produce it. Of those thirty, how many are really going to produce Depending on what thirty guys you ask, how many of those thirty guys are going to produce enduring work, work that will last. That's the key right there.
Well, it's like.
You probably could do a good amount of math from how many bad courses there are and come to a reasonable conclusion.
Agreed.
So Harry Richards.
One of our listeners, asked, what's been your most challenging restoration.
Well, you know, I mean I really appreciate the question on it. Yeah. I tend to think the most challenging renovation of restoration that I'm working on at the time is the most challenging one to me. Like every renovation project or any restoration project has its own challenges, right, I mean it really does, because everything is unique and interesting and different, but for different reasons. Everyone has its own challenge. Like Philly Cricket. Philly Cricket's challenge was, this
is Tilling has home course, Keith. This is me saying it to myself, Keeth, you better not screw this up. This is Tilling has Home Course. Okay. On the other hand, Moraine Moraine hires me. My gosh, Keith, We've got to produce something really, really strong because the club is, you know, putting all this responsibility on me, and I don't want to let them down. I want to honor them. I'm working right now at a club called apple Wamas, the
Appowamas Club. It's quirky, it's funky, it's different. But this thing is on and it's challenging. There's nothing easy about that. So I think, really I just try to focus on the work that I'm doing right then, and I recognize that their challenges and I've got to solve them or help solve them or be part of the solution. And you know, I've had one or two that are easy, easier, But you know, you have committees members that you've got
to exceed their expectations. You have budgets, you know that you have to manage, you have timelines with different contractors. And you know every golf architect he doesn't have the same contractor doing the work, so you have to still get great results with different contractors. And that's in itself is its own challenge. So I think right now, I'm working on three projects right now right and of the three, the Applewamas Club is a greater challenge because it is
so difficul Everything about it is hard. But you know last year's projects. You know, if I'm doing three in a year, of those three, one of them is going to be the most difficult, and then the other two become a little easier because they're compared to the more difficult one.
Yeah, obviously like having you know, some projects are bigger than other projects, But is it just.
Do you think three is kind of your sweet spot.
Yeah, well, and I try to do that. I mean, look, I could do more golf and I could do more work, right, And the way I do more golf and more work is I take more projects and I spend less time on them. I mean really, that's what golf architects do. You take you get more work, and when you get more work, what you're saying is to do more work, I have to spend less time on the projects that I get because you know, you only have so much time. Like I work, you know, seventy to eighty hours a week.
That's how much I work. So if I'm working seventy to eighty hours a week, I leave every Monday morning five am, I get home Friday night at midnight, okay, and then Saturday I'm drawing. Sunday I'm with my family. Okay. But that's what I'm doing. And I can only handle three programs at a time because the week can only generate so many days. So I spend a day and a half two days per project each week when I'm doing them. So that's why three is, you know it.
I can't do any more than that, you know, because there's just not enough time. And you know, that's how much time I want to spend on the projects because I want to produce great work.
That's what you said at the beginning. You want to do less but do better work.
And yeah, it's the crazy thing about architects and architecture. You're you're like an unknown for a while, and then you get popular and then you.
Have too much work. And you know, so you see it all the time where sometimes people take on too.
Much and then they go back to doing little, and it's it's a really it's an industry that's so different than almost any.
Other profession.
And you're a spot on andy. And so my wife, who is fantastic, she reminds me, Keith, you just need to learn how to say no more. And and that's hard because all of us want to please our clients. But you know, I'm always reminded that I need to get the work that is right for me. And that's why, you know, I look at people and relationships and you know, if they can trust me, if I can trust them, and then together we work on something that is meaningful.
And then you know, these clubs are going to invest their time and money right to try to get results that are exceptional I'm giving part of my life to this, so I've got to produce something really, really great because you know, in the end, look, we all are going to get paid, but the money is not The important part is the results. It's the weight of our work
behind us. And so you know, I promise my wife, my family, myself that I'm not going to take too much work because in the end, I'm not measuring how much work I'm doing. So it goes back to my mentor when I went to Chicago. I'm trying to do enduring work. I'm not trying to do more work. And you know, you know my gauge is great, and I just want to be part of great.
So do you get a lot of time to play?
Ever? You know I don't. And you know that's the So any of your listeners that say, oh, I'd love to be a golf architect, you can be a golf architect. You just can't play because if you have time to play and work on your game, you're not working on your clients, and your clients are paying you so and you're trying to establish a reputation not by playing but by your work. So you know, I love the game of golf. I think it's fantastic. I just don't have the time to beat balls and to maintain a swing
that you know is notable. So when we lived in Kentucky, I built a nine hole golf course on our farm and it was a circa nineteen hundred golf course. So you actually, you know, you would play with gut to perch of balls and you would play it with smooth face irons and long nose and it was so fantastic. And and I could go outside our barn and I could play it in forty five minute swing, and I could you know, I could also play with big arm
you know, our big time clubs now. But you know I could get back to the game, and I could do that in a quick thing. You know, all of us are struggling and fighting for time, and that's the whole thing is. You know, we have all this technology, you know, and all this technology is great, but all of us are starved for time. And so you know, I'm the same way. And what what I'm giving up is playing. And then maybe in ten years, you know, I get the opportunity to go back and return to
playing the game. But right now, you know, I'm focused on, you know, trying to do great work, so I don't really get a chance to play much.
Yeah.
I mean I think that technology sucks the time to make it like so much easier to do so much stuff, but it just takes away the time.
Yeah.
So, uh, Josh Bill's asked this question, and I'm going to just adapt it a little bit. But what is the one course that you'd love to work on? And we're going to say that doesn't have a consulting architect and we're going to make it, you know, say a unique golf course that you've seen or stumbled across that doesn't have you know, doesn't have a consulting architect, and has the budget to let you do what you want.
Which one would it be?
Oh my gosh? I mean look, okay, so every one of your listeners either likes long you know, like if I said to you, what kind of par four do you like? Some of your listeners and you may say, I want a power part four where I can hit this shot or have to hit that shot and so on. Okay, I tend to go towards quirky, unique, charming kind of places,
maybe under the radar kind of places. So I like things that are kind of lost gem and I like things that are just a little off if you will, you know, like if you if you look at a mantle of your you know, above your fireplace, some people will have two of something or it's perfectly balanced. I'm more of an offset person, So I want something that's just a little a little tattered, a little worn, that hasn't been messed up too much. So you know, like,
for instance, there is this charming place called Myopia Hunt. Okay, I would love to touch that place and not touch it hard, but just to be exposed to something like that. I mean, I just love it. I just love the name,
I love its quirkiness. But if I could work on anything, I would want to go to Swinley's Forest, the par sixty nine golf course that Harry Colt did, and just play in the bunkers and just I mean, you can't improve that golf course, because the golf course is incredible, but you could learn, you could play, you could study, and you know, you could be within something that's really quirky and great. And you know that's where I would
probably migrate towards. You know, it's just those really you know, charming throwback clubs.
There's a lot of those in the Northeast.
Yes, And then I imagine it plays perfectly into Alistair Philip's question, what's your top three in the UK?
And I assume Swinley would be in there.
It has to be. And you know, I mean, I love golf in the UK. And when I would, you know, play a lot. What I ended up doing every year is I would do all my work in the year and as sort as I finished my work, I would take two weeks off and I would go to Scotland, in Ireland or England and I would play for two weeks and I played forty five fifty four holes today and immerse myself into the game and then I would come back rejuvenated to do it again. And I just
love that. And so, you know, I love golf in the UK and then Scotland and Ireland because you know, it's it's the game in the purest sense. Okay. But in terms of architecture, I like quirky, so you know in England, you know, I think I love cults work, and so I love Sunningdale. I love you know, Swinley forests. I just think they're really, really exceptional and so I love those two golf courses especially, but if I picked
one in England, it would probably be that. You know, I love golf in Scotland, Saint Andrew's, you know, I think it's fantastic, But I love the charm of North Berwick and it's just obscure and funky and a little different and charming in its own way. And it's rough. It's kind of almost as a feel of the municipal golf course because it is so rough, you know, and I like that. And then and you know, I just you know, golf in Ireland. I mean, shoot, Port Rush
is incredible. Uh, you know, Port Rush is great. You know. I I tend to kind of go towards that because I just think it's really really neat. But Port Marnock is neat, so you know. But if I could choose three golf courses, I would probably just do all Harry Colt courses, so and just go go all three.
So Harry Cole, he's he doesn't get talked about in the US because you know, Allison did the most most of the work here, what you know, knowing both so well, what was the difference between you know, how Alison built courses.
And how cold is well?
I think, what's yeah? You know, so Colt's work is interesting and you know, so your listener would you know, he asked, well, what are the three in the UK? And I would migrate, you know, if I could choose, if I had to choose all three, I would say Colt. I would say England and be good with that, and probably all the courses in Surrey, England would probably be my choice as opposed to even Scotland or Ireland. Okay, but now Colt and Allison, so Colt, Okay, this is
here's the difference between you know, Harry Colt. So, when asked about his best golf course, Harry Colt says, you know, Swinley Forest is my least bad golf course. Okay. Now, Swinley Forest is a really great golf course. But it is so understated, it's so off the radar, it's so charming. It's just what golf should be, which is a great walk. And I think that's really good. So I tend to think that Harry Colt's work is softer placed in terms of bunkering. There's more artistry in the bunkering.
And.
You know, it's just a bit more subtle. Okay, Now, Alison when he comes over here, Alison is a tremendous talent. I mean, you know, Colt was involved at Pine Valley. Alison was also involved at Pine Valley, and to make Pine Valley so special at Alison's work when he you know, so he works for Colt, but Colt has his own philosophy. Colt mentors Alison. Alison comes over here in the twenties. All of the work that is Cold and Alison, for the most part, is done by Alison. Alison creates teas
that are low to the ground. His green pads are big, giant, strong, proud greens, and the bunkers are boldly cut underneath. So there's less subtle tea in Alison's work, but it's bigger landforms and you know, it's more impactful. So Colt was more subtle, Alison was bolder in his presentation of golf scale and otherwise. So there's the difference right there. You know. Basically, you know, I grew.
Up working at Nola Club and Alison of course in Chicago that I know you you worked on after my time of working there, and uh you Nail, I mean that's it's really bold with a big bunkering and raised up greens and it's it's exactly how you described it.
Yeah, yeah, and it makes and it and it makes sense because if you're Alison, right, think about this. If if you're Alison and your mentor is cult and you're working for Colt, you know, you're not going to create cult work. You're going to create work that is your own.
And and so he got away from that and that became something really important to him, you know, when he just perfected it through the twenties and then you know, when the depression hits, he goes to Japan and he creates some great golf courses in the thirties in Japan, and and then and later in his years he goes to Australia in the forties and you know, produces some really great golf courses in Australia.
Yeah.
He might be the most worldwide traveled man.
I agreed.
Yeah, it's surprisingly it's something changed obviously after the Golden Age because Colet and Alison, you know, they were longtime partners.
They had Mackenzie and they all got their names on the firm. You know, Morrison then comes in gets his name on the firm. But now you see firms and you know you'll have you know, say it's a Jones firm. They have these project architects that don't get their names on the firm, but do you know the design work, and it's kind of it.
It's weird how that shifted.
It is interesting, isn't it? And you know, so so what you had right there is like, for instance, you had Colt, Alison, Morrison and Mackenzie and really, what Colt did you think about this when they had that partnership. Colt is doing the work in England, Alison is doing the work in eastern US and in the Midwest. Mackenzie
was doing the work out west. So they all had regions or territories, which is really really you know, charming, you know, But suddenly you know, here in the States and US everything you know, we want, we want the notoriety. And so what has happened is the game of golf. Well, look, Tilling has you know you think about Tilling has Tilling has had his guys, the Tilling has got the credit. Ross had his guys and Ross got the credit. So
there is a more. Oh, I would probably say the English are a softer breed, aren't they in terms of you know, being able to give credit and a little bit more accepting of those kind of things. But here in the States with tillinghas Ross and Jones and everybody else, you know, we tend to, you know, the the name you know gets the recognition. Just like when I worked for Art Hills. You no, my job was to make Art look the best he could make and be. It wasn't about me. It was about making sure that who
I worked for was the star. And I was you know, I'm in the line, on the line. He's a quarterback and it's okay. You know, you have to invest and put your time in there. But you know, it is certainly different than you know Colet, Alison, Mackenzie and Morrison.
I wonder if that work, if you did that today, if you you know, you put together you know guys and said we're a firm that we cover all, you know, any interesting concepts.
You know, I'd love that. I mean, truthfully, I think it'd be fantastic. I think what you have to have is the key on that whole thing is the guy at the first name, Colt. Okay, so it goes back to Colt, right, Colt said at Swinley Forest it is my least bad golf course.
Yeah.
So Colt was a humble man, a quiet man, a man of great subtlety and charm, and he didn't have a really big ego. So you know, but if you look at you know, some of the other you know, maybe that just doesn't happen. So I think it started with cult personally, like right now in my career, I would love to do that because I hope that I'm becoming a better person, and you know, I would love, you know, to do something like that. So Andy, you've got some guys with some great talent.
I'd love to do it, all right, I'll uh, I'll send them your way. I think law firms do it. You know, it makes a lot of sense. We got a couple of other really good questions that I want to get to. I don't want you. You're a busy man.
So Jeff Shackelford wants to know you're the best piece of history slash memory Omphelia you've found on your hunts.
Well, all right, so you know many of your listeners and all this stuff they don't know. You know, maybe a lot about me and and probably that's a good thing. But Okay, so I'm a golf course architect, and but I've always liked antiques and collectibles and things like this. But but I love the game of golf obviously too. So when in two thousand and you know, as I was going through my career, I started trying, you know, somebody introduced me to golf architecture books, and I'm going, what,
there's golf architecture books. And then I start trying to buy golf architecture books. And then it starts going on this exploration. And then I started trying to find golf balls and old golf balls, and golf clubs and old golf clubs, and so you put all this stuff together, and I started buying this or that or finding this or that. Well I happened. What I thought was one of the coolest things I found and got was Harry
Colet's personal scrap book. And Harry Colet was so proud of Country Club at Detroit and when it held the US Amateur I think in nineteen fifteen or nineteen fourteen or fifteen. He kept a scrap book of everything that happened on his first voice to the United States, and he brought his wife and it has his tickets and it had all of his information on what he ate and where he stayed and what he thought and pictures
and everything else. And I found that scrap book and I had that scrap book for a number of years and it was just so wonderful because it was just so insightful to Harry Colt. So I have, you know, the first piece of letterhead that was Colt, Alison, Morrison and Mackenzie and it was all part of that scrap book, and I just thought it was just so fantastic to have.
And then the other thing that I found, which is really great is there's this old golf club called the Royal you know, Thistle Golf Club and it was founded in eighteen nineteen. And I got a receipt that they paid a greens keeper keeper of the greens for his annual salary. And I got that receipt of his is you know, actual payment for the course of a year, you know, while he was keeping the greens at Discle Golf Club, which was really incredible.
That's a that'd be a fun thing to just to get to thumb through that cult scrap book.
Oh, it's incredible. And you know, I still have a lot of great old golf stuff, and you know, I just love it. I love the history of the game, and I love the charm of the game.
That's that's why. That's why you love the restoration so much.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, that's yeah, it's I always liked history class, which is I think why I like this stuff.
So much when I was growing up.
All right, we'll do one more question here. Pat Craig says, you're working on Golden Valley up in Minnesota. How does it stack up with the other Tillies that you've worked on.
Well, you know, ironically, ironically, I was at Golden Ball on Monday, right, and Golden Valley is really really an interesting golf course, and I didn't really know a whole lot about it, and then I get the opportunity and the privilege to go meet with them and and and what's interesting about it is that it's a typical because you know, you have this this you know, Tilling has gem consider this Golden Valley, you know, is you know in Minneapolis, and uh, Killing has does one golf course
Rochester in Minnesota. Right, However, Killing has has relatives in Minneapolis and Golden Valley convinced Tilling has to go there to take a look at this piece of property. And the only reason that Tilly does it, of course, is he has family there, which is fantastic because now he gets to see his family. So Tilly routes masterfully an incredible routing on this difficult piece property. Right, so it
has it has perimeter roads all around it. It has an interior perimeter road and a railroad track running through it. And Bendalo does a golf course originally in nineteen fourteen or nineteen sixteen. There Chilly comes there in nineteen twenty six re routes it, expands it and does eighteen holes, and he creates an incredible routing on this awkward, disjointed piece of property. And then over time, over sixty seven years, like many great wonderful old golf courses, trees get planted,
architects come in. You know, people do more things than they should and not enough of what they should do, and so Golden Valley sits like this. And so initially when I go to Golden Valley, I I come in the night before and I just drive around, not the golf course, but around the perimeter, and the night before, all I'm seeing is all those roads and all the issues, and then I, you know, I go to the hotel
room and I just sleep on it. The next morning, I walk into the golf course and I start walking it, and then and then I start seeing what Tilly did, and I am just blown away by how good it can be. And so I just look at it, and I suddenly forgot about all the other external things and I just focused on what Chilly did. And it's really good. And now, of course I can see it, and now we're presenting it to the you know, to the to the board and the committee first before we present it
to the membership. But I am so excited about that. And and what was really good about it is that usually I just create a plan, a master plan, to take them to where they want to go. But what I did is I took a look at Tilly's old plan and I took I was so excited out to Tilly and what he did on it and the Tilly plan, but I took our master plan and I then went
back and created what Tilly created. And so I've got this really great Tilly plan for Golden Valley, which is what he did plus what we're going to do, and we have this incredible opportunity there. I'm really excited about it. They are so nice there and so trusting, and you know, I'm really thankful to be there. So it's going to be pretty exciting to do it.
Yeah, it's Minnesota.
People are just so nice and it's an interesting golf town because they had Ross do work there.
They had Rainer up there, they had.
Tilly, they had William Watson, like they had all these great architects in the doing, you know, work at various courses.
It's got a ton of variety.
It really does. And you are so right, Andy, However, and this is what I was saying the Golden Valley that yes, there are all these notable architects that have done some really really good golf courses there. However, if you look at the pedigree of courses that Tilly's done, right, I mean you can, Okay, Ross is really talented. Clearly Rainers really talented. Look at their work. But look at the list of courses that have endoored that are Tilly.
It's okay. And now you look at gold it is unbelievable. So now you look at and that's the thing that's the genius and the charm of Tilly. So now you look at you look at Golden Valley and look what they have ready to be polished and reset. It's incredible.
I would add it's remarkable to look at the entire Philly School of Architecture because Flynn is a similar where he had. You know, he has so many courses that have endured the test of time. George Thomas, you know, with the courses he did on in la you know, obviously Marion Is and then Oakland, but those guys that did all that collaborative work in Philadelphia, all of them have you know, so many great golf courses still today.
And you know, and isn't isn't that the truth? And that's a great observation. And I wish I could say, now, look, I'm from Philadelphia. Now I'm from the wrong side of Philadelphia. I'm from South Philly, and all those other golf courses are in the Posh neighborhood. But you know, that is one thing that when I got the opportunity to go to Philly Cricket, I'm going, my gosh, I'm from South Philly. I'm going to go to big time Philly now and I get a chance to work on tilling Haass golf course.
I so want to honor Philadelphia architecture. And you know, George Thomas was a member at Philly Cricket with Tilling half. So that's why I was just so excited to be given that opportunity. And I just wanted to make sure that what I did was honoring to Tilly Philadelphia School of Architecture. And you know where I'm from.
That's that's really cool. It's say, a getting to do stuff in your hometown is awesome. It's all right, we do this overrated underrated segments. It's quick, it's you know, I mean, give you a couple topics and you tell me if it's overrated or underrated.
All right, no proper.
War and if I hey, hey, and if I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, I'll just say I don't want to comment.
I mean, we're we don't usually allow that.
You know, we've allowed We've allowed one or two properly rated in the history.
Of overrated underrated.
Okay, the use of grass hollows from the one bearded golfer.
Oh, I hate them. I think there I just don't even see the charm in them, you know, no, I don't see it. Overrated, Yeah, very very overrated.
El Dinarino says us opens at modern venues.
That's just a clueless thing. I think that's so overrated. And my gosh, look at look at the results last two or three.
We're on the same pace here. Green to Tea like connections from Ben Hogan camp.
Okay, I love them. Okay, So I think I think what's great about that is, look, if you have a close Green to Tea connection, I mean green fir t is really there, instead of pretending it doesn't exist, I love to connect it so that I'm showing that you're going from one room right into the next room. I think it's really really good. Now, you don't want to do it where it's forced or there's too much room, But if it's tight close I connect.
Gotta do it, and you gotta have it consistent. You can't just do it once right.
Well Yeah, I mean, okay, so Andy, you saw marine. How cool is those? How cool are those Green Keey connections?
They're amazing and anybody can see it. I've I've got a review. I got like hundreds of photos in that thing. So that course, I'll tell you what though, we had to walk thirty six in that USAM qualifier.
Huh that was a bear.
Well you know, yeah, yeah, well you know. And I did a couple of green tea connections at Philly Cricket. In truth, I'm on a mission where I'm trying to return golf to close green tea relationships. So like when I played Saint Andrews, you know, you go from one green right to two t I love that where you're in the game, and that's where I think the game is in terms of charm. If you can get right off the green, go right onto the tee and go, I think that's it. It promotes walking too, it does,
and that's what I'm trying to do. And and I just want to reintroduce that. So at Golden Valley we're going to introduce it. And Moraine clearly, we did Philly Cricket, we did Baltimore. So you know, Marine passionate about that.
Speaking of major or like Major Champion, Marine needs like a Senior Open because that place is unreal and it's such a good test.
I agree, Yeah, I absolutely agree, and it could hold it.
Yeah, it's there are usam it rained, So it was a little soft and only one one score, one eighteen hole score was under part.
Yeah, and I mean and and by the way, that club didn't say to me, Keith, we need to get more yardage. But when I never really thought about trying to pull it back further because they just didn't need to do it. But it's it's a lot of golf, and it's a great golf course and a great membership and great people.
Yeah, they were really nice there.
If you know, if they had, if they tried to do a pro event, they'd have to move Tea's on nine and seventeen back because like Dustin Johnson could just fly those those ridges, those agreed, Those are great little subtle design things that they did there, or you did, I don't know who did.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually I actually did it.
Yeah, those are like those ridges that just they just killed the long him.
And I hit him right into it, they'd go nowhere.
It's like, you know, yeah, and that's you know, and I learned that years ago, which is if I can get you know, a strong ball to hit into the upslope, you know, and take the heat off the ball, that's key and you know, I finally learned that.
So yeah, I thought it.
Was one of the better subtle things that I saw on a course this year. So I'm a fan. Last one from Joseph rolling the ball back underrated, overrated, This is.
Oh my gosh, you know, you know, oh, isn't it? Isn't it terrible? Where our game is going? Where you know, people are now talking about eight thousand yard golf courses just so that the pros you know, can hit, you know, to force them to hit five irons or three irons into holes. So you know, the pros play a different game than we do, and you're going to roll the ball back. It's impossible, you know, for our game to continue the way it is.
It's just it's I hit it pretty far. I'm not like Dustin Johnson, but I was like I played our stadium this year and I was like kind of like sickend because of how many wedges I hit. And it's just like I I didn't have to h do anything but hit driver wedge and it's like that's not off.
It isn't. And yeah it's still on darts, it's it's but we'll.
See what happens.
So hopefully we'll just start our own revolution, you know, like your backyard.
Nine hole cours. Yeah, I know, I wish it was that simple. The problem is there's so much money in the game, and you know what's happening is that everybody's trying to do what's right for everybody and at the expense of our game.
M Yeah, I agree with that.
You know, they they still sell balls, but yeah, it wouldn't be you know, all the research and development money that they already poured into next year's ball would be gone.
And that's the thing I think they are mad about. But they'd be up in arms about.
So with that note, you know, on a getting off on a somber note, which you know is only fitting because you're you've been so positive.
That's the end. So thanks for coming on.
Well Andy, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk with you and a little bit about my work. And I'm so thankful that you would, you know, you know, want to talk with me and allow me to you know, just talk about what I do.
Hey, you always have an open invite, so you know, if you want to, you guys, something to get off your chest, send me an email.
We'll get your back on.
Well, thank you again for you know, paying attention to some of the work that I'm doing. And you know, I'm really excited about the work I'm doing right now and what I've got going on for next year and the year after, and I've got three or four years work out ahead of me, and I'm really quite excited about it. So thank you, and and I hope to have the pleasure of meeting you.
Yeah, for sure, let me know when you're going to be up in Minnesota. It's not that far from here.
Sounds perfect. I love it. I'd love to host you and show you how special Golden Valley's going to be awesome.
Well, we'll talk soon and have a have a good holiday season.