All right, we're back for another episode of the Friday Podcast. This week, we are talking with John Cavalier. He is the famed Twitter and Instagram account linked gems. Many of you probably already follow him on Twitter. If you don't, definitely recommend checking him out. He takes spectacular photos of golf courses and is a self proclaimed golf junkie. So we're gonna talk golf photography, golf course architecture, and you know,
kind of golf courses tonight. So John, thanks so much for coming on.
Andy might play. You're a big fan. Thank you for having me.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I think you know the thing that everybody would love to know is you know a little bit about the man behind links gems.
I'll give you as as best I can. So I'm a full time lawyer that that career tempt to pay the bills. I'm based out of Philly. I worked for a rather large law firm doing labor and employment work, litigation and trial work, which is interesting and keeps the lights on at home and on the side, obviously, I
play a lot of golf. I'm based out of Philly, so I like to get back and check in on the courses in my hometown and the surrounding areas, But I also travel a lot boks will working for fun and when I do, I I certainly like to see the golf that other areas of the country. That's offer. But I really summed it up. I'm born and raised in Philly. That's that's leaks shams in a nutshell.
So tell us a little bit about how you got into golf and when when did you just when did you start taking pictures? Were you always into photography or was it something that it kind of came later in life?
You know, that's an interesting question. Both the golf and the photography came rather late, at least later than most people. I guess. I didn't play golf until late in college. I had never played the game growing up. For handicapper, I certainly wish that I'd started earlier now, but such as life. The first round of golf I ever played was a round that was set up by my father's
boss at a course near here called Heartfelt National. They had the guy drop out and we're desperately scrambling to fill out the forsome so they asked me if I wanted to tag along and play and you know, growing up, I was always a baseball, football, basketball kind of guy, you know, the core sports, and considering myself, you know, I want to be athlete in the regular sports, so to speak. And frankly, it always kind of looked down at golf as both a recreational thing and a professional thing.
I never watched it on TV, never really got into it. So I sort of begrudgingly agreed to go tag along with these guys and see what gos was all about, thinking both that I would be bored out of my mind and that it would be the easiest sports that I'd ever played. And obviously I was wrong on both counts. Shot one hundred and twenty six. Still remember that very clearly, and was absolutely hooked from the very first home. I mean, you hear people talk about with the golf bug. It
bit me, and it bit me hard. From that point on, I think since then, I have been playing as much as I humanly possibly can, getting out constantly, and it's been great because it's given my father and I have a common ground and a common thing to do together, which is obviously a big benefit that I think a lot of people share in the game of golf. So that started me off. And now, since I guess I'm getting older here, that was about fifteen years ago and
I've been ever since. The photography came much much later, at least as it relates to golf. I've always been somewhat interested in photography. I mean, I've never never taken classes or done anything, you know, official with respect to photography, but there's always be something that it's been an interest of mine I casually pursue. I mean, I've always owned a camera. I take it with me on vacations, annoying
my wife, you know, things like that. But the two had two didn't really combined seriously until about three four years ago, when, for whatever reason, I happened to have a camera with me when I was going to play a particular golf course. I don't even remember which one it was, but I took some pictures while I was there. They came out fairly well, so I posted them online
and got a nice response. And even more than that, I realized that taking the photos and having them actually heightened my enjoyment of the round and help me to experience the joy of playing a really nice new golf course. Over a longer period of time. So it's nice to have to go back and sort of relive some of the course and look at the photos and see things
that I might have missed. And it also makes the round itself a little more enjoyable because I'm looking for certain things while I play and shoot that I might not otherwise be looking for or care about, depending on how on or off my actual golf game is on a given day. You know, if you if you're playing well and hitting it down the middle, you have a tendency to ignore a lot of the course that you
might otherwise see. So in an event four or five years ago through four years ago, I started taking some photos here and there, and since then it's it's the response to the photos I've taken and to sharing them online and on various websites have been extraordinarily positive, which is certainly in encouragement to keep it going. So I've been doing it since then and that I've really been getting a kick out of it since it's been nice.
So so with the photos, I mean, you know, you started and you're you're an average joe like all of us, and you know what are like some of the Yeah, so what you know, obviously where what the pictures you post now, you know, for somebody, even for me, I take pictures around a golf course. I'm colorblind, I'm kind of an idiot, so I'm not I'm not good at taking pictures. You know, some things I've picked up our elevation, you know, I watched for a light. But I don't
really know what I'm doing. But what are some like really easy things that you did that you saw drastic jumps with your you know, abilities of taking pictures.
That's actually another really good question. The first thing I will tell you is that the practice is invaluable. Especially when I was just kicking this all, I would shoot a ton of photos than I still do. And after the fact, when you review them, you see what works better than other things, what photos came out nicer than others, and you start to realize some commonalities between them, and you learn why certain photos look better than others and
why some come out looking like crap. And even now I probably throw half of the photos that I take on a given day in the virtual trash can, so to speak, because they didn't come out well for one reason or another. So it's definitely a learning process, and practice is obviously a key point of that learning process.
Beyond that, it's you know, photography is really just all about capturing the lights in the right way. So once you learn how light interacts with whatever camera you're using, it goes a.
Long way towards understanding why certain photos look nice and others don't. And unfortunately, to the extent we're outdoors, we don't really have control over the light. So there are going to be days where the light is bad and you're going to come home with an entire role of pretty mediocre photos. There's other days where it's perfect and you can't possibly take a bad shot. So some of it is out of your hands. With respect to taking pictures of certain things that you can you can look
back on and determine whether you like or not. I like to experiment with different angles and different perspectives that you don't usually see most people you see online, they stand on the t box, they take a photo. They stand in the middle of the fairway, they take a photo of the green. Maybe they get up closer to the green and they take a picture. It's sort of one, two, three in a row of the natural progression of a
golf hole. The biggest thing I would recommend as part of the practice is just to get off the straight line path and do some things that are different. Shoot from behind the green with the pin in the center of the frame, looking back up the fairway. Shoot from inside of a bunker, get down low and shoot the green surface. You can see how the green rolls and moves.
Shoot at different times a day. Obviously, the best time of day I think to shoot is in the hour or so before sunset, but dawn is a wonderful time. Depending on how the clouds look at a given day, you can get out there in the brightest part of the afternoon and get some really neat shots. But the point is you really need to learn what works for your own eye, and the only way to do that, at least in my in my sphere of knowledge here,
is to shoot a ton of photos. Shoot as many as you can, as often as you can, in as many different conditions as you can, and sooner or little you will learn what you like and what the people you share your photos with like, and it becomes easier
over time. I generally know now as soon as I step on the first tea, if I have my camera with me, whether it's going to be a good day for photos or whether they're going to come out looking like prep And that just comes with shooting a ton of photos over time.
So do you carry like when you say you're you're going out to play, do you carry like a is it a bigger camera or is it a smaller one? Or do you use your phone a lot of times? You know, if you're if you're playing with save four buddies or three buddies.
So it depends where I'm playing. If I'm heading down to the club to play around, or I'm going to a course that I've played a hundred times or that I already have photos of, I'll usually just carry my phone. But if I'm going to a place where I know I'm going to want to take photos, especially if it's a new course that I've ever played, or if it's a course that I know is going to lend itself really well to photos, I'll bring my camera. And I usually do try to bring my camera to to most
of the places that I go. I don't shoot with a big camera. I don't shoot with the DSLR I have one, but I shoot the majority of my photos while i'm playing. Uh, And you obviously can't carry a around the next DSLR when you're playing around to go, So I shoot with a with a Sony Mark five DSc one hundred, which is a very small point and shoot camera that fits in your pocket. You can stick it in your pot, your pants pocket, or your shirt pocket while you're playing and easily play around the golf
without bothering you. And it takes terrific photos. Uh. It's the camera that I recommend to everyone. It's not the cheapest camera you're ever going to see for point and shoot, but it is absolutely tremendous for golf photos and pro photos of of whatever you want to shoot. It's really terrific. There are I guess a few occasions where i'll i'll, and I could probably count them on one hand over the last five years where I've shot golf with with the big dfl R. I don't think it makes much
of a difference. You know, somebody hired me to go to their golf course to shoot photos. That's probably the camera that I've used, just because it gives me maximum flexibility both with the camera and in terms of editing the shots afterwards. But they're all playing around the golf and you know, I'm not I'm not lugging that thing around with me and I'm not going back out after the round. I shoot ninety five percent of my photos while I'm playing golf.
I think that's the way to do it. It's like a I've noticed, you know, I'm trying to up my game with camp with the pictures, but I've noticed that the first round where I started taking lots of pictures and trying to play with buddies, it was it was so hard. You know, You're like, you're you're running around the golf. I felt like I walked to eighteen's, you know, and my buddies were, you know, out running ahead of me, and I'm like, slow down.
You know.
It's a It took a little time, but now I feel like once you get used to it, you've become like a pro and you're kind of out ahead of everybody absolutely.
And that's another thing that practice will help with. The more you do it, the more natural whole process seems in, the easier it comes. One of the things that when I'm doing this, my my number one cardinal rule when I'm out shooting golf is don't slow the group down and don't annoy the people that I am playing with. So I'm a very fast golfer anyway. I know everybody says that, but I play golf to the point that it's probably hurting my game. I play so quick. I
just don't have much chalance for slow golf. It's actually, you know, sort of a pet peeve of mine. So I've been getting used to doing this. It's very easy for me to both hit my ball and take photos and still easily keep up with most people that I play with. You if you find yourself slowing down your group, not only are you going to take photos that probably don't live up to your own expectations, but you're going to play poor golf. And to me, that sort of
defeats the purpose. I mean, I'm out there, first and foremost to play an enjoyable around the golf with the people that I'm with. If taking photos is cutting into that, I stop taking the photos. I mean, it's important to keep your priority straight. I mean, really is about the golf, not necessarily about the photos. So if the photos, I guess what I'm trying to say. The photos are very
much a by product of around the golf. They're not the primary reason of there, So I try very hard to make sure that that perspective remained complaint.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a good one to keep. It's so, we got a ton of great questions in from Twitter, and I wanted to make this one a little different where we kind of just go through the questions and let that kind of guide the conversation and we can get on tangents, you know, galore from these questions. So the first one is from Kyle and he just wants to know, and I saw somebody seconded this, how on earth are you able to see and play so many great courses?
So that's obviously a good question, and I'll answer it this way. Unfortunate in that I have have a good job that involves travel, I have no children, and I have an extraordinarily tolerant wife. So that is really, I think the sort of a key to being able to to travel around and see different golf courses in different places.
You know, when you're not worrying about you're gonna put your kid through school, or you know your wife is not in your ear constantly about taking her to somewhere to a vacation, it's a lot easier to go see these courses, and then as far as sort of the second part of that question, I guess an access question. I've been very lucky in that I've met so many amazing people through golf. I cannot tell you how many people I've met over the last fifteen years through golf
that I now consider my dearest friends. And that network is a really useful tool, uh, when you're specifically seeking out a certain course that you really want to see. I was down in Florida last week and a very good buddy of mine, who is a member of a couple of clubs down south, was able to set up seminal for us. He knew that I really wanted to see it, and he was kind enough to set it up for me without even asking. I have found that people who love golf also happened to be some of
the most generous people that I've ever I've ever encountered. Uh, And I think you'll you'll probably second this. People who love golf just want to be around and play golf and talk golf with other people who are enough about the game like they are. So if if Conner here is asking for advice on how to see courses, or if there's a course that he might have an interest in playing. A big part of it is just putting yourself out there and meeting other people who love golf.
I mean, you never know when you run into a guy who has a sweater own that has a logo, of of course you recognize of conversation with him, you never know where that guy is a member at, and he might become a useful contact in the future, and more importantly than that, he might become a buddy that joins your Sunday force and later one of your friends, or a buddy who you go on golf trips. But I can't tell you I'm any golf trips I've gone on with people I hadn't met before we arrived at
wherever we were going with golf. I just think it's such a communal game in that respect, and it's really interesting to see how the more people you meet, the bigger your sort of world gets and your ability to see the places you want to see. And then obviously the corollary to that is it's just important to be a generous person and somebody that people like to spend
time with. In return, I get contacted all the time by people who will come into Philadelphia, who might want to see certain courses or might just ask me, hey, listen, I'm going to be in town for a couple of days, where should I play? And I not only enjoy when people reach out to me and ask me those kind of questions, but if I can help in any way, I'm happy to do that. And I think that that kind of that kind of helping others really does lend itself to getting to getting it returned to you in
one good way or another. So I just the bottom line is this, you have to make yourself available. You have to have to go out and meet people, and you've got to be open to both playing with people that you don't know, getting comfortable in a situation where you're you're the new guy in a group, and you really just have to have a taste for meeting people.
I mean that's both in business and in golf. Networking is such a key point and such a critical aspect of success that it's something that I don't think anybody can be too good at. Yeah, it's something that I enjoy doing. It's something that meeting new people is always
something I enjoy. So it's been good in that respect then, and of course luck, you know, it obviously entailed a lot of luck to get on certain courses, as I'm sure your listeners know, and and certainly I've had very good fortune in that respect over the last couple of couple of years. And it's it's absolutely not something that I would ever take for granted.
Yeah, I think, you know, if you're a golf junkie and you put yourself in the right situation, and you know, I think a big part about it is like, you know, people want to take people out there that they know are going to enjoy the experience. You know, it's not necessarily like I don't think the right reason is I'm checking one of the top one hundred off my lists.
Like that's not necessarily a good reason. But a great reason is like I want to go see the great architecture, or you know, I really want to like having a purpose and having a real like is something that I've found that you know, you know, is that I've found that you know, I write a lot about architecture, and you know, people want to show you the architecture of their golf course, and you know, I'm I don't I could give you know, I could care less what number
of golf courses on golf die just top one hundred lists. What I really want to see is the architecture. Like a perfect example is in your backyard. Of course, I'm kind of dying to play is White Marsh Valley, and I want to play there because yeah, it's George Thomas is who for those of you that don't know, it's his first design and it was and he's the same guy that designed bel Air Riviera Laccne Nor So you know, getting to see see an architects first design is you know,
something really cool. So that's a place that's really high on my list, and you won't find it on any top one hundred lists, you know. I think that that's an important aspect of you know, getting the access places, is that you're doing it for the right reason.
I could not agree with you more. Uh, And not only that, but I think that's exactly the kind of attitude and talking about when when you're you're putting yourself out there. I mean, some of my most enjoyable rounds this year and in years past have been at courses that that won't sniff a golf magazine or a golf digest list, and just in the last couple of months alone. Glen Falls is a course that I've been I've been putting a lot of photos out on Twitter and Instagram.
That place is incredible as far as the architecture is concerned. Country Club at Troy uh Ortard Lake out in out in Michigan, amazing golf course, not on any top one hundred lists, and that's really what I love. There is nothing that makes me happier than seeing a course that
just surprises me to no end. And if you're if you're into that, you can be assured that there are members at courses who are golf nuts just like you and me, who would love nothing more than for some enthusiastic golfner to come out check out their course and talk to them about architecture over a beer.
It's uh yeah, I think that that I find more joy in finding those gems you know that not a lot of people know about, but are just fantastic places to play golf. And a lot of times, I mean the club the clubs, Oh yeah, I think like you know, Manufacturers is a perfect example of that. I played. I was blown away by Applebrook out there. I thought that was really good. Yeah, and it's you know, there's a bunch of them in Chicago too. I mean there there
are a bunch of them everywhere. I think that, you know, like a you know, you look at all these places. Is a lot of times these Golden age architects like you know, maybe not the highest thought of course in the area. Sometimes are you know, the most fun to play, because they aren't, you know, they aren't trying to be a championship golf course. They're trying to be a fun golf course.
Yes, and I quite frankly, I am not good enough to play a championship golf course the way it's supposed to be played. But I am just about good enough to play a quirky, funky Seth.
Rayner design that has the same length that it did in nineteen twenty when they were using full.
Hickory's and a ball made out of bird feathers, you know. I mean, that's the kind of golf that appeals to me. I'm not going to be trying out for the my Tour card anytime soon. So the idea of a course being seventy five hundred yards and having rough that's six inches deep in greens that are running fifteen doesn't appeal
to me at all. But that weird little Golden Age design and it's barely been touched, that is in some neighborhood that nobody even drives through on their way to the US Open Course down the street, is exactly what I'm after when I'm going to a new city.
So, you know, you say so, I'm curious, how do you go about scheduling like your year of trips? And you know, you know, what are some of the new places that you're looking at for twenty seventeen.
Already good question. So weather has a lot to do with it as a as I'm sure you know, being from the Chicago area. Once about December fifteenth hits here, it's probably a little earlier for you. Golf is pretty much over. So from just about this time of year through the end of March, I'm just looking to get the hell out of here and go somewhere warmer. Ideally there's going to be golf there. If there isn't, I will find it. But I am looking for warm weather
destinations at this point in time. If I have a work trip that takes me somewhere where the temperatures are going to get over six in the winter even better, but if not, I'm still getting out of town. My wife and I usually try to go down to South Carolina every December, and obviously there's some great golf there. But as long as I can get away to a couple of warm weather spots this time of year, I'll be happy in summer months. It's really just about picking
areas that have courses that I'm interested in. The other interesting thing is that my wife is a big marathoner and triathlete, and every year she tries to do one big race in some far away location in the US. So, for example, she's got a big race in Kurdalene, Idaho, this coming August. So that's a great opportunity for me to go out there and play the courses in and around Kurdalen, to go over and play Rock Creek Cattle, play Godza Ranch, maybe even take a trip a little
further west and play gamble sands. You know, those are really nice things to have that my wife and I can do together to you know, make this thing seem more reasonable and all this crazy golf and not leads to divorced.
That's it. You know, it's gotta be tough for her, it's training was that elevation.
Yeah, she uh, A lot of the things that she she does would would kill a lesser man like, but she's she's done great with it. She she really loved it. And uh. The the the fact that we can jointly do a vacation to somewhere in the middle of nowhere that will allow me to play a couple of rounds of golf at some really nice places while she gets to do something too, uh and we get to see the a new area of the country that we've never
seen before. It's it's really a nice a nice benefit of of our little settle.
That's cool.
That'll be that will definitely be a fun trip for this year. You know.
It's one one out there that I've wanted to check out and I've heard so much about is Sylvie's Ranch. It's out and it's in Oregon. I think it's in like the eastern part of Oregon. And it's a Dan Hickson and it's it's a reversible course. So it was actually yeah, so he started it before Doak started the Loop. But like you know, there, I don't know what the deal with their ownership hasn't you know, wasn't ready to
do the resort yet, so they didn't. You know, the course is pretty much done though, which in it looks spectacular from the pictures I've seen.
I would love to see it. I do know. I've heard of the course that you're talking about. I don't know too much about it. I don't think much of out there about it. But that's exactly the kind of course that I would love to see out that way. Another one I'm looking at possibly seeing. It's sort of in the middle of nowhere, at this place called Sutton Bay,
which is in I think South Dakota. But I just stumbled upon it the other day and it just looked beautiful, caught my eye, and now it's on my always growing list of places I would like to check out at some point or another.
Yeah, my list, guess I think I add like four or five to my list every day, and it's it's just it's awful.
If I could play half of my list between now and whenever I die, I will consider that a rousing success. So the list, it doesn't matter how much golf I play, the list always grows.
So now that we're on your list, let's let's hear like you know what are where are the top five courses on that list that you haven't gotten to yet?
On my wish list, the number one is, without question Cyprus. Point I've only I've only done one trip to the the San Francisco in the Northern California area, and I was very fortunate and I got to play a lot of really great courses. But Cyprus is absolutely far and away the number one course on my wish lists, both
domestically and abroad. I am dying to see it for reasons that we don't really need to get into, because it's obviously anybody who's ever picked up a club, but that is a place that you know, I'm dying to play. I'm also hoping and planning to play Pine Valley in twenty seventeen. It's a little ridiculous given that it's fifteen minutes from my house. I've had it set up i think four times in the past, and through what is becoming an absolute comedy of circumstances, the round has fallen
through each time. Hurricane Sandy ruined one of the round. Poor a member who had been so kind to invite me for one of the rounds actually died before we got a chance to play one time. It snowed on the day that we were supposed to play. So Pine Valley has become sort of the white whale locally, and it's even more frustrating, like I said, since I can practically see it from my deck, so I would be on the I really want to see sand Hills this year.
Yeah, certainly the best modern that I've never seen, way up there on my list is Camargo, which is probably the.
Best seth Rainer, of course, of them. I'm a huge steed in McDonald, Seth Rayner, Charlie Banks fan, and I've played what I'll say, most seth Rainers courses, but Camargo is one that I have heard nothing but wonderful things about. So I'm very much looking.
Forward to playing their best set of template part threes of any Rainer McDonald.
They say, so I've heard, I've heard the same thing.
So so for incredible for the for the audience out there, something that very few people I think some people know, but you know, if if you are, if you are good enough to be able to try and qualify for a U s A. Every single year, Camargo hosts the USAM qualifier. So for one hundred and fifty bucks to the USGA. You get a practice round and two other
two tournament rounds at Camargo Country Club. So that's something that you know, if you are a golf architecture nerd and a good player, that should be something that's a on your list of things to do.
And from what I know about Camargo, I am not quite good enough to play in a USM qualifier. But if what I will say is even having not played Camargo but having heard so many good things about it, for one hundred and fifty dollars, that's the kind of thing that I would absolutely plan golf trip around.
Yes, if any of your listeners have the handicap and the desire, I would. I would certainly make that trip and we could talk about this later. In Ohio is sort of the great untapped area for me. There are so many.
Courses that I want to play in Ohio. It's one of the few areas that I haven't spent. I've spent almost no time in Ohio, and it is just shock full of dynamite classic courses with terrisdic architectures. I would I.
I haven't played a ton in Ohio either, and I was amazed. A buddy of mine was going to Cleveland for something. He asked me, Hey, where should I play in Cleveland? So you know, I was like, well, let me do some research, and I pulled it up. I mean, there's multiple Stanley Thompson designs, There's tons of Donald Ross. I mean, there are so many. And these are all public access courses. You know, the city of Cleveland operates I think to Stanley Thompson designs and one or two
Donald Ross designs. They are supposed to be spectacular courses.
It's it's incredible, both on the public and private side. How much good golf ohioland and it's a crime that I haven't gotten out out there more than I have. I mean, I've driven through Ohio to go to Chicago, to go to Wisconsin, to go to Michigan several times, but I think I've played something like two courses in Ohio and that's just ridiculous given the quality of golf there.
I know one place you've been. I think, I'm I'm gonna do my USAM qualifier at Moraine Country Club in Dayton. So I heard, I know you went there this year and you said it was great.
It's amazing. That is exactly the kind of course that we were talking about earlier when we were talking about courses that aren't on any list, although I will say that it would not surprise me in the least to see Moraine pop up on a couple of those lists in the near future now that Keith Foster's work there
is done. But you talk about a golf course that is on an amazing piece of land, that has a membership that cares about the course, cares about its history, cares about its pedigree, and it's a rich architecture and and it has both the means and the desire to to get the course back to the way it was originally intended to be. And you have a place like Marine. It is incredible And I wholeheartedly co signed your decision to do your qualifier there. You will love the golf course.
Yeah, yeah, As I was like, we have just the worst sites in uh Illinois this year, so I'm just I'm gonna go out of state for I think all of them and just find some cool courses. I think one of the mid Am sites is a country club of Fairfield, But I don't think I'm gonna go out there a week before my wedding. I think I'd get probably killed. I wouldn't be getting having a wedding if that happens.
I will tell you Fairfield is awfully nice, but since I want your wedding to go off, well I won't. I won't tell you too much about it.
Yeah, So.
You know, we've seen some some drone pictures from you, and Drew is curious about what kind of drone you use, and he's he just got a Phantom three Pro and he's been kind of hurt by the recent weather.
So I certainly feel Drew's pain. I actually my prior drone to the one I'm using now as a Phantom three Pro like Drew's using, and that's a terrific drone. I unfortunately crashed my drone, and one of the things I will tell you is good luck getting a drone repaired anywhere in the comminental of the United States, especially if it's a DJI drone like I use. They just there's nobody who will touch it, and it's just not quite worth sending it all the way back to Japan
to it worked on. So having crashed that one I earlier this year before on my trips I went out and I got the Phantom four, which is very much like the one Drew's using, with a couple extra features. But it's a it's a wonderful photography tool. It's a wonderful tool to play with, especially if you are sort of a gadget geek, like I think most photographers and most golfers are. They're a blast to play with, and I have been really, really thrilled with some of the photos that I've managed to.
Pull out of my drone this year. Uh, it's been it's been a good year for that, and I think who's gonna have a good time with it? They are, They're really a blast to use, and they're they're.
Just perfect for golf photography. I mean, the nature of a golf course lends itself to those those elevated perspective photos like nothing else. It's it's just a great tool if you're looking to capture golf courses from an interesting perspective.
So yeah, I've been kicking around the idea of getting one. I feel like I just really miss out on getting Like, you know, I think Chris Spence does a great job getting like green Ngel with his drone shots and whenever I look at yours, I just like, God, I want one of these, but it's.
A lot of fun. I will. I'll just recommend that, you know, don't spend a lot of money on your first one, because you will almost certainly crash.
It, almost to guarantee.
But anybody who asks me whether they should get a drone, my response is always the same. If you can afford it and you think you might want one, to get it, because you'll really enjoy using it, even if you don't use it regarf that much. They're just a blast to send up and fly around and get an interesting perspective on things that you wouldn't otherwise have. There are a lot of fun and well, well they're certainly not They're
not cheap. You can get, especially nowadays, you can get a really high quality drone that's going to give you really good performance and really good pictures for a very reason price. I think you can get a fan of three these days for something like five hundred bucks, which, you know, five hundred dollars is a lot of money, but that's around the pedal beach, you know, for a drone that you're gonna have until you end up crashing it.
So if if you're interested until it takes beat.
Right, it's exactly exactly so. And like I said, some of the the photos and the courses that I'm going to shoot this year with the drone have have really turned out well. And I just figured out how to fly with my drone too, So now when I travel by air, I can take it with me and and
shoot some courses that aren't aren't near Philly. So I'm looking forward to doing that in twenty seven, especially by the way, if I can get if I can find myself away to sand Hills and baling Neil and his other course, Oh god, I would love to shoot those with a drone. Wow, would they come out looking me?
Yeah, I've been thinking about doing that trip too. I you know, it's just it's gonna be a week. But you know, they go out there and do Prairie Clubs out there too, which is supposed to be a really really good facility. And bally Neil sand Hills its yeah, dismal rivers right there. I mean, I guess right there isn't that good of a description. But yeah, when you get into when you get into sand Hills, like three hours is like right around the corner.
That qualifies to the next door in that part of the world.
Yeah. So, you know, Michael is and this is a place that's high on my list of places to check out. You know, he's trying to get you to see Culver. He wants to know what does it take, You know, Michael, all it.
Takes is warm weather and a message on what they works for you. I would love to see Culver. That place looks incredible, especially after the walk they've done there. I mean, I have an affection for nine whole courses, actually for non traditional courses, whether they're you know, nine holes, whether it's a course like abandoned preserved thirteen whole park
three course. I love seeing courses that don't fit the traditional eighteen hole part seventy two, you know, sixty eight hundred yard model, and Culver looks like a place that has nailed that model down close to perfection. It just looks amazing. I would love to see it, and I'll certainly tell Michael that it will not take much to get me out there.
Well, you know, they've got the course was done by one of the most underrated architects duos of all time, Langford Moreau and those guys were you know, Brainer McDonald's disciples. We see a ton of their work here in Chicago, but not a lot of people know of them outside of you know, the kind of the Midwest, Wisconsin and Illinois, Indiana. So the great architects. Another nine hole spot that I saw this year that was, you know, blew me away
with Sweden's Cove. So yeah, I would highly recommend a Chattanooga trip because there's a lot of good golf.
Yeah, there really is. In Tennessee, like Ohio is an area that I really have to get to. You know. Lookout Mountain is down there, which is for for your listeners, is another rain of course that I haven't seen, but would absolutely love to. Sweden's Cove is most definitely on my list. Everybody I know that's played there just raves about the place. You know, I've seen photos. They look incredible. Everything about the place is just screaming out for a visit.
And of course in Tennessee then you have the big dogs like Honors Course, and then not certainly down in Atlanta, there's a couple others that there.
Yeah, yeah, there's a there's another course, Black Creek there that's a Brian Brian Silva design that you know is modeled after Rayner McDonald too. That's it's supposed to be really good. So and then then there's a course in Knoxville, Holston Hills that yeah, that was. That was an awesome, awesome place.
Told me that Holston Hills is one of the purest rosses they've ever played.
Oh yeah, it's It's like so the it's an interesting story. The club was always on the wrong side of the tracks. So essentially, when you know, golf was in its death period of architecture, they didn't have any money to plant trees and mess it up. So now they have, you know, one of the primo ross courses in all the country. I mean, this place is so playable, it's so fun. I mean, they've got a one of the coolest volcano holes that you'll ever see. It's like a three hundred
yard uphill par four. Just I mean, it is a great, great golf course.
I can't wait to see the buddy of mine is remember there. So maybe we'll have to add the Tennessee area to the Winterstic Winter Destination.
I don't think it's it's and I don't think it's not that far. If you do it in the if you know, it's not that far from Ohio and you know, or Atlanta. Chattanooga's only I think two hours from Atlanta. So I always tell people if you're if you're a golfer and you live within like five hours of Sweeten's Cove, you should go there like once every two months. So I think, yeah, I like, I've I've had multiple days where I've just thought about getting my car and going there and it's nine hours away.
But I know that's feeling. I know that's feeling, especially this time of year. I have done some crazy things on random December and January days where I just need golf and I say, all right, well, I'm getting in the car at three in the morning and I'm driving south and you know, I'm going to Pinehurst or I'm going to South Carolina or whatever, and you know, you play thirty six cole, stay overnight, play another round or two, and drive home.
I mean that's sort of the way we northern folk get.
In the winter time.
Yeah, so let's get another one of these questions here. This is from Chris Butler. What golf course features are easiest to capture well with a smartphone? And how do we do it. I think we touched on some of this a little bit earlier, but I think this is this will be a good question.
So let me let me capture the smartphone. Let me talk to the smartphone part. First, smartphones these days are so good that anything somebody can do with the camera, you can do almost just as well with a smartphone. You do not need what we'll call it a real camera to take good photos a golf courses. You just don't. The iPhone camera is the new Google smartphone, and any fansung phone the camera is easily good enough to serve
as a golf course camera, and that's without exception. So the question is really what course features can we capture? So the biggest difference with the smartphone is the center is smaller and there's no zoom. So what most people, at least in my humble opinion, sort of mess up when they're trying to take photos of a golf course with the smartphone is that they're they're too far away
from the features they're trying to capture. And like I was saying earlier, that's where you get that t shot photo where you know, you kind of see the beginning of the fair way, and then you get closer to the green, everything is getting small, and then the green is like a spec way on the distance, and you don't really get a perspective on how the whole actually looks. You can't really see any features because everything is sort
of minimized. So the number one recommendation now gives people if they're shooting the smartphone, is to find something about a given hole or a given course and it's interesting, and then get up close and shoot it. Whether that is a role of the green, whether it's a bunker feature, whether it's an element of a terrain that they think is curious or unique or they think might look nice, get up close to it and capture it as best
you can. My really, the only rule that I have for cake and golf course photos, and this is not a rule that anybody needs to follow, but I think it's a good point of reference, is so long as you can see the pin in your photo, you're going
to have a usable photo. So with a smartphone, what I like to do, and I shoot a smartphone all the time, is to especially get up by the green and shoot the way a bunker is arrayed with the pin in the background, or get down real low and shoot a picture from almost ground level so you can see how the green either slopes upward front to back
or how it rolls in certain spots. But you really need to be close to what you're shooting with a smartphone, otherwise you're gonna have a picture that is distorted in terms of the real way a whole looks, and frankly, it's just not gonna be that interesting because you're not gonna be able to make out any detail. That's really
what I think makes a good golf photo. It's a photo that that makes you feel like you're actually standing there and looking at whatever the photographer's trying to show you. And you just can't do that from far away with the smartphone. So as long as you're you're up close, and you're you're shooting things from a compelling angle or from a from a compelling height, you're gonna end up
with a good photo. The other thing you've got to be aware of with the photo is that or with a smartphone, is that the photos are going to be much more sensitive to the way the light is hitting the camera. So if you're shooting into the sun with a regular smartphone camera, the picture is not going to come out well, so you've got to move to a
spot where you're not shooting directly into the sun. A lot of phones these days have an HDR mode, a high dynamic range mode that will allow you to balance out and equalize the light and the shadow in a picture with a smartphone, and given the limitations of the smartphone, this can be a really useful feature. I would recommend everybody who shoots the smartphone play with a little bit. iPhone has it native in the camera app, but there
are also third party apps that you can use. The only caution I would give people who are trying it is it's really easy to get carried away with it and end up with a very stake looking photo or almost a cartoonish looking photo if you go overboard. But if it's choose correctly, it can really be a nice tool for somebody with the smartphone where the sensor might not be as capable of capturing the bring light conditions
that we've seen to go. But again, it was a long one way of answering a relatively simple and straightforward question. But the most important thing is get up close to whatever you're shooting. If you're shooting a smartphone.
Yep, that's a great piece of advice, one that I'm actually gonna take to heart, because I am so guilty of what you talk about with shooting with a smartphone and just taking a picture of a really long haul from the team.
I do it. I do it all the time. And it's amazing because I'll be standing on a tee with my phone and looking down at the hole and thinking this really looks amazing, and I'll shoot the photo, and you know, I'll do it a couple more times. I'll get home and I can't wait to look at these photos that I got, and I'll pull them up and it doesn't even look like the same hole that I was standing on because the perspective is so it's so
minimized because of the way the smartphone cameras look. And on that point that that's really like I said, you certainly don't need what I refer to as a real camera to shoot golf course photos. But one of the nice things that a real camera like the Sony has that can be a really useful pool in shooting golf courses is the zoom function, not only because it allows you to artificially get closer to whatever you're shooting, but because it allows you to play with the depth field
and the perceived depth of the background in photos. So you zoom in and not only do you make the things bigger in your photo, but because the angle of your shot decreases, it really pulls the background in closer, so you can get closer to what it actually looks like to your eyes standing there when you have that capability. But because most smartphones only have a digital zoom function, which is worse than workless, I've never recommend using that feature.
It's harder to mimic that real life viewpoint that you can do with a camera that have more capability.
So partly enough, this Rob has a question. You know, he he loves the setting sun a you know, he thinks, you know, it's difficult to get the right you know, capture of it. So what what are your tricks for? Uh? You know those pictures the last hour of sunlight.
Yeah, and some of those pictures are are the best pictures to take, but they are tricky. So that's a really good question from Rob. There are a couple of ways to go about it. If we're talking smartphone. For the HDR function is a really good function when you're shooting into the setting sun. Otherwise, what you'll end up with a lot of times is you know you can you can you can expose your shot for the sky and you'll get a really beautiful sunset, but the golf
hole will be black, just be shadowed out. Or you can expose for the golf hole and it will come up nice, but this beautiful sunset that your eyeballs will be completely whited out and overexposed. So the HDR function sort of merges those two things together and you end up with a photo that hopefully is at least close to properly exposed both for the light and the dark. The process for the camera is very similar to that.
By the way, you can also create the HDR photos after the fact that software, but for the most part, the apps and the camera features that cameras have nowadays you usually make that process unnecessary. But it's possible. But that's I guess a little more advantable for us, you know than us lowly golf courses aerever we really need to know about. I don't do it as you're shooting with a real camera, and this goes for not only
setting sunshots, but all shots. You want to make sure that your camera is set up the way it needs to be and properly for the shot that you're trying to take. People ask me all the time, what camera should I buy for taking golfposed? And there are plenty of answers that we'll get somebody a wonderful camera for got photos. The thing I always tell them is whatever camera you get, to make sure you learn how to use it. People expect to a lot of times people to pop them out of the box. It's like a
smartphone camera and immediately rip off these great photos. But you really just need to learn how to use the camera and how to set it up properly for the
different shops that you're going to encounter. And to Rob's point, I have a memory slot on my camera set up for exactly the kind of shot that he's talking about, so that when I end up on a hold that the sun is setting behind and we have this beautiful scene in front of us, rather than having to tinkle with everything and set the camera up the way it needs to be set up to get a good photo, I can just click a button and be ready to go.
You can use HDR modes in camera after this act with regular cameras too, I think they tend to be much more natural looking than a lot of the cell phone cameras will look when using that mode, So that is a good way to do it. And then the probably the most useful way to get really good shot into the setting sun is with editing after the fact of post processing. We haven't really talked about that because
it's something that I absolutely despise doing. I hate editing my photo deck to the fact it takes so much time and it's it's not all that fun for me. I like shooting the photos, but I hate playing with them, so I avoid it. I also don't use a computer of my workflows from camera to iPad to wherever I'm sharing the photos, so I'm limited in what software I've access to. And I also shoot Jpeggett the post to walk.
But if you are really looking to get some great photos of the setting sun into the setting song on golf course, I guess my recommendation would be shoot with a real camera, shoot with the highest dynamic range your camera will allow you to shoot with and ideally shoot in raw mode so that after the fact you can tinker with the photo to the maximum extent possible and darken up the the overexposed areas and brighten up the under exposed areas, and hopefully end up with a balanced
photo that you that you're happy with. Like I said, there are a lot of ways to go about it. None of them is right or wrong or any better than the other, but it's it's it's a tricky photo to get right, and an easy photo to to capture an overblown cartoonish image on or one that's just simply unusable. So those are the methods that I use, and I've
had some success, but I've also had some failures. I mean, sometimes no matter how hard you try, no matter how well you set up the camera, and no matter how hard you push it in editing after the fact, it just doesn't come out. And that's kind of the nature of the trinal error.
Yeah, that's I think everybody's been there, just you know, frustrated with it. You know, you see something that's just absolutely epic and there's just no way to get it feel like, you know, you're in the moment again, I.
Completely agree, And by the way, on that point, that's another you bring up a great point there.
If you are standing there looking at that epic moment and you really want to capture it, don't you shoot one photo, fire off a bunch, change your settings a little bit, try something you ever tried before when you were dealing with digital cameras. Here, there's really no such thing as having too many photos. It's much better to get home with twenty photos of this epic shot you thought you had and have.
Nineteen of them be worthless but one be usable, than to take one thing you thought it was set up perfectly, realize you didn't account for something, and get home and have a totally worthless, one shot image of this amazing scene. So take multiple you get multiple cracks, bet it with the digital camera, use them.
Yeah. So let's Eric Bens has a good question here. I think this is a great one. I think, you know, there's a lot of golf travel people that tend to focus on, you know, the high end resource and everything, but like you know, a lot of the great courses are these hidden gems and you know, public courses that are under one hundred bucks to play that you know
you love. So what are some of your favorite, uh, you know, courses in across the country that are public and under one hundred bucks, and I'll give some of mine too.
Great question. I don't know if it counts or the cheating, but I think the absolute best value in golf is the replay rate at Bandon Dunes. If you go at the right time year, you can play thirty six holes of golf there and the second round is going to cost you something in the order of seventy five dollars. I think the first round might be one twenty five. There is no better value, in my opinion, in public golf than that deal. I don't know. I've never been
to Abandoned in the summer. I know the rates go up a little, but certainly in spring, and I believe in fall you can go out there and get those rates. And I just don't think you can possibly find a better deal in golf. And that goes for a lot
of high end resort courses. I mean, it doesn't necessarily apply at places like Whistling Straits, which is expensive, or Pinehurst, but I will tell you that a place like Kiowa Island, the Ocean Course, which is one of the first great courses I ever played in the place that I try to play every year when I go down to Kiowa. If you play the Ocean course in December on a weekday after something like one o'clock, it's seventy bucks and carry your own bag. You don't have to worry about
a caddy. That's a great deal. So a lot of the resource courses, if you are careful about what time you're able to play in the day and what time of year, you can get some really great deals. And I do that all the time. I love a good deal as much as anybody, and that's a great way to get some. In Philadelphia, there's a lot of really classic, great courses that can be had very cheaply. Lulu country Club is a place that around here that just went
semi private. Used to be a private country club and now it's open to the public during certain days and times. I've played there earlier in the late in the fall, I guess at the end of November, and I think it cost me fifty dollars. And this is a wonderful, quirky, well preserved, decently conditioned, total loss gem that anybody who is into architecture would absolutely adore. And it's really cheap for what you're seeing.
My uncle was my uncle is the head pro out there for about thirty years. So I love Louis. Yeah, great, great golf course.
It's terrific, right, I mean, you don't get you don't get those kind of courses anymore because they've always been altered or updated or modernized. And here's a ross where the club was perfectly contend with it and just sat on it for eighty or ninety years and it exists now almost in the same state that it didn'ts we lost building.
Yeah, I think it's from what I've been able to tell on Twitter, They're they're putting a lot of money in a good, good new ownership. So that's the place that should just get better with time.
Couldn't agree more. And then as far as the rest of the question, it's really it's just a matter of being willing, at least in my opinion, to go off the beaten path a little bit, your high end resource where the demand is high and people with disposed will incomers staying there are going to cost more money naturally. You know, there's a reason why Peddle Beach can keep its screens fee at five hundred and fifty bucks or whatever they're getting these days. They charge it because people
will pay it. But the further away you go from the major cities, the further away you go from the high end resorts, the better your chances are of getting a great deal on a terrific public golf course for less than hundred bucks. And there are a ton of them out there. One that I played this year was out on Cape cod called Highland Links. Another nine holer
that we talked about earlier, full rescue everywhere. This place hasn't been touched since they originally laid it on the ground back in I want to say something like nineteen twenty. And it's terrific. You can tire your own bag there all day long, play wonderful golf and it'll cost you thirty five bucks or something like that. It's an amazing place. These kind of courses are around, and frankly, there's usually at least one of them in or near every major
city in the country. You just have to be willing to look a little deeper and do a little more research to be able to find what's out there.
Yeah, I think a good practice is to well one architect in particular, You can usually find Donald Ross courses everywhere. He designed four hundred and twenty five of them. So there are The Donald Ross Society has a full listing, but a lot of them are public, I find. You know, that's usually a pretty good bet if you're looking for a course with good bones. They aren't always in the greatest shape, but the bones are there. They're fun.
You know.
A good example of that in Chicago there's a course called Ravslow Country Club. It's on the south side of the city. It's an old country club. This now public. That's a great golf course to play a one up and you know, this is an awesome trip. And John, this is this one should be very high on your radar is Sand Valley. But right forty five minutes from Sand Valley is a place called Lisnia and it's designed by Lankford Morreau. It's probably one of the best golf
courses in all of the Midwest. Probably I would say top thirty golf course in the entire Midwest. And it is I think, I want to say, like ninety bucks to play, and the replay rate is around thirty. So that place, I mean, you could play there all all the time. And then you know, forty five minutes away you also have Sand Valley where they're building these courses. That's gonna be a little bit more expensive, but you know, in that hour area you have four world class golf
horses now with the new David kid design. A couple others. I like a bell View at Biltmore which is down in like the Tampa area. It's a cool little Donald Ross public course. You know, Sweet and Scove, which we mentioned earlier. Uh, there's a bunch you know that's that's a whole blog post in itself. Best best values in golf.
Absolutely, And I'll tell you I I've heard nothing but good things about Lasonia. I'd love to to see that place sometime soon. When I was in Chicago in early November, I actually I didn't have a chance to play it in a time, but I actually drove into Ravaslow, got out, walked around a little bit that place. Wills cred that that is a course that is absolutely on my list for my next trip Chicago. That's a great example in the filiary again, since that's my neck of the woods.
A great place to head for relatively low cost public golf is the Atlantic City Shore area. Atlantic City Country Club is a dynamite course. Saturday morning during the summer, they're probably getting easily into the three figures. But again, if you're willing to play it in the afternoon on a random Tuesday, you can get an afternoon rate for for well under one hundred dollars. There's a Twisted Dune
is a really enjoyable course down there. Same thing. So as long as you're flexible with with your schedule and when you're willing to play there, there are certainly good deals out there that you have cool.
So you know, I want to be conscious of your time. It's very late now on the East Coast. Before we get you out of here, I'm just gonna hit you with some quick hinder questions. All right, favorite architect, Yeah, it's a favorite architect.
Favorite architects Seev McDonald and.
Definitely Okay, if you had to play one golf course the rest of your life, which course would it be?
National Golf Wins.
All right, that's a good That's number one on my list of places to go see. So with that, what are the three courses you're most excited to see in twenty seventeen.
Cypress Point Is is definitely the top on that list. I think I want to throw pine Valley in there, but I'm not really sure about that given the unfortunate history that I've had with it. So let's let's, you know, let's leak that one out for now. We'll say Cypress Point, will say sand Hills will say.
Come on, Okay. Those are three strong choices, and then we'll go with what was the place that blew your socks off most and twenty six meaning that I had, you know, you didn't have any expectations going in and you walked out of there like wow.
That would either be Glenn's Falls up in New York, Orchard Lake outside of Detroit, which absolutely blew me away. Or I don't cheating by giving you multiple answers here, but or it would be Black Sheep outside of Chicago, which I played. I actually stumbled out that way because I had a little extra time after a morning round and I had a choice to either go back to the conference that I was out there for or go
see Black Sheep. Figured what the heck went out played Black Sheep played all twenty seven holes one afternoon in high winds, and absolutely loved the place. I thought it was just incredibly fun modern dame man.
That's what I haven't gotten out there, and I'm kind of jealous now.
Of nowhere. Like I said, it was not on my list of places to see. It was not something I was planning to do. It was literally a spur of the moment decision, and man, what a good decision. Really knock my focks off is a perfect description. I had a blast. It's just it's golf like it's supposed to be fun. Uh, you know, deep features you don't see anywhere else. Very unique design, especially given the property they had. Uh, just fantastic in every way. Great.
Yeah.
The architect there, David Esler, might be one of the best modern architects that nobody knows about.
I agree. I didn't know about him until I saw a black sheet, but he is certainly a guy who I look for now.
He did all the bunkering at Ravslow too. He did a restoration there.
He did a restoration at the Olympia Fields, didn't he he?
I know he did glen View Club. I'm not sure about Olympia Field Eld. But he did glen View Club, which is a flynn up in on the North Shore. And I want to say he did Skokie too. I'm not positive about it, but he did, he has he has a couple of good projects. I mean that, and I've heard great things about Black Sheep. So and then uh, all right, last question. It's a it's a tough one. Best golf city or metro area golf metro area in America.
So the way we're going to define this is you have within an hour driving of the city center.
Great question, and I like the way you defined it because that definition can really alter the reasoning here. So anyway within an our of the metro center, to me, it's it comes down to uh, Philly, New York, Boston, Chicago, l and San Francisco. Those are the six contenders, right. I think you probably have to eliminate San fran as good as the golf out there is, because an hour doesn't get you all the way down to Monterey. You know,
you capture Hastiefo there. But there are a lot of great courses within that hour, but I don't think it quite matches up to the others. Same thing with La. As great as the high end courses are in LA, some of the ones that I really like are outside that hour radius. So you just sheer numbers game. You just don't have enough super high end courses for LA to be in the conversation. So with your definition of mind, I think it's a really close fight between Boston, Chicago,
and Philly. And because I can't really make the decision between those three, I'll go with Philly just because it's my hometown. The manager a lot of great courses within an hour downtown Chicago, and I'll say a Boston. I mean, you got myopiat Essex, Salem, It Hans, It, the two moderns, a Old Sandwich, and Boston Golf Club, and you got all the way out on the cape that I think you're reaching an hour place like Eastward Hoe. You got Whiteonville. You know a sport. It's amazing how many great golf
we're star balls. But I literally Boston because you're playing seasons shorter. So in the end, it's Philly wrote to Chicago. I'm a Philly guy. I know you're a Chicago guy, So I'm gonna go with Philly. I'm pretty sure you're gonna say Chicago.
Somebody I went out. I went out to Philly. I had two golf trips out there, and a Philly's at Philly in my mind takes the cake. I Uh, it's the depth at Philly is just so much stronger than I think Chicago. Like a perfect example is White Marsh Valley, you know, like like that that. I mean, Chicago's really good though, and New York's eliminated because Long Island is too far from the city center, so exactly.
And look, there's still a boatload of great golf within an hour of downtown New York. But I just without those those Southampton courses and the courses further out on Long Island, you just you know, it's close. But if if you think those away from New York again, I just don't think it can compete on depth Philly. At the high end, obviously we have. You got Marrion, Pine Valley, Iron and Ink Gulf Mills. The high end is here.
Is really really Philly Cricket.
Philly Cricket is another great one.
How is there are there fifty courses better than Philly Cricket Club. I'm sorry you are there fifty courses in America that are better than Philly Cricket Club?
If you're asking me that question, I'd be hard pressed to give you fifty, especially now the Foster restoration is done. Philly Cricket Club is a phenomenal golf course now, and I'm a big killing ass fan, and what Foster did there to bring that killing hands back out of that golf course is just tremendous. That that place is absolutely outstanding right now.
Yeah, I mean that's when I realized how good Philly golf was was when, of course I played that, I barely you know, I had heard about it from you know, the senior event and the club pro event out there. But then I get out there and I'm trying to think. I'm like, you know, if this is in Chicago, it's it's probably top three golf course in Chicago, and here, you know, they have it between you know, five and seven.
That being said, rankings are a load of crap since short Akers is ranked the number seven course in Chicago and yeah.
Which is really all you need to know about the ranking systems, because that's about as crazy as it gets. Shore Acres is one of my favorite places on earth.
There's there's there's not a place that I've found better. So it's, uh, we'll see this summer. After this summer, I'm gonna play a lot of great courses, but we'll see if it still stands up. But there's not many places that there's a better, you know, three and a half hour walk around than short acres in the world.
I could not agree with you more. That place is just lovely in every respect.
Yeah, all right, John, really appreciate the time, and uh, you know, for those of you that don't know, it's it's almost midnight recording this in in Philly, so he's staying up late for us. I'll I appreciate the time, and I'll link John's Twitter and Instagram handles in the podcast posts so you guys can go on and follow him if you don't already. Thanks a lot, John, now any thank you.
I appreciate it. And I always love talking golf with a fellow golf month, So anytime,