Jon Cavalier and Zac Blair - 2017 Golf Season Recap

I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

And when I find my ball in a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Fridagrida Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run.

Off of the course.

Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today I'm joined by photographer Extraordinaire John Cavalier and PGA tour star Zach Blair. Guys, welcome on.

Thanks man, it's good to be back.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah, bringing back the crew, talk a little bit of golf courses, architecture, see what else we get into. You guys have good Christmases.

Absolutely, Holiday is always a fun time of year. Yeah.

Yeah, I was good out here. Nice to spend some time at house.

This podcast is making my Christmas though. And to be honest, as original guest, way back when, on I think episode thirteen of the podcast, I wasn't sure that, you know, our stars were bright enough to hang on the Frida Egg. After you've really taken this thing off over the last year or so, I'm very honored to be on.

You know you can't help. You can't forget the people that made the made the podcast what it is. And yeah, I have to redeem myself. I was a much worse host than than I am now. I'm still a horrible host, but I feel like I might be getting a little bit better. Let's kick things off. I wanted to go to do a rundown of our favorite courses, new courses that we played this year, so not necessarily new, but new to us. And uh, I think we each got a list of ten together and we'll uh each each

Yeah, I mean, I mean they're all good. All the ones that I got listed are solid, so I guess the order doesn't really matter much.

Yeah, let's uh, let's start, John, you kick it off.

Sure, So, like you said, I can't believe, it was a pretty pretty solid year for new to me golf courses, especially the first half of the year. And like you said, I can't believe I'm about to leave some of these off, but I guess we can talk about some some of these places that are outside my top ten when we

Yes, that's my tough kind of the way I feel with like the very best golf courses, every one of them, you walk off it and you're like, that might be the best golf course in the world, you know, and you exactly, But which of that ten were you kind of Which one did you have the least expectation going into that got its way in there.

That's a good question. I think it would probably be Rock Creek simply because I didn't know that much about it. I just knew that it was a dope course in Montana.

But I was just really really impressed with.

Everything about the place. It is a really neat environment. The golf course is just an incredible design. It's mountainous, but it's still walkable. It really encourages fun ground shots, which you don't see at mountain courses very often. The scenery was gorgeous, the conditions were absolutely perfect, and so having played there and driving back to kurd Laine, there's a lot of time to think about it, and it just really struck me as a place that was virtually perfect.

Give the club a call and see what they say.

But it is a course that I recommend most highly to anyone who is up and in that area.

It's just terrific that I've heard from a lot of people. Some people think it might be his best design dope ever, but it just lacks the seaside eye candy that like a Pacific Dunes that Terry d has.

Yeah, I think that's I think it's very fair. I mean, my three favorite dough courses are Pack Dunes, Dally Neil, and Rock Creek, And depending on what references are or what you feel like playing on a given day, I think you could very easily rank those three in any order, and all of them are terrific. All three are very very high on my personal list of favorite modern golf courses.

So moving on, ZB, what you got for us?

Yeah, so you know, when we were talking about this, I.

Didn't play a lot of new courses.

I didn't think, but then you kind of were a little shocked and gave me all the courses that I had played, so the list came a little easier after that.

I would go, uh, Shadow Creek in Vegas.

The Fas came through with a nice one down there, got over to Marion.

That was awesome.

I was actually I had heard kind of, you know a few different people talk about it, and a couple of people had said how amazing it was, and then a few people were kind of shocked that it was ranked so high. So I kind of went in with low expectations for that you know, grade of a golf course and was pretty blown away when.

I got done.

I was kind of offended that somebody, actually multiple people thought that it wasn't like that good, so that was really cool. The Pine Valley Short Course, I got to play that this year for the first time and that was really cool.

Yeah, we need to talk about that, Zach. Sorry to interrupt you, but I also played the short course for the first time this year and I was blown away. So we can talk about that after you give us your list. I'm glad you brought that up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, I would love to.

I played Lacc the South course that gil Hansk, and that was really really cool. I think it's a nice compliment to the North course over there.

It's just a fun, fun course.

I think there's you know, there's like six par fives and five par threes or something, and you know, it's just really cool. It's just it's more of a fun golf course compared to the North, which is very much of like a championship style place that the South is a little different, but it's really cool. I also got to go play the Redo at Aronomic.

Which was awesome.

Blown away Actually with that one was kind of another one wasn't expecting. I wasn't expecting it to be that amazing than it was then I got down to Australia and played some sweet spots played Victoria. Kingston Heath was another one that was really really cool, and then Royal Melbourne was probably my.

Thing. You would expect it to be from the stuff you hear.

Another cool one that I got to do with you, actually, Andy, was play a little dirt golf at the at the Buck Club earlier this year, So I'm gonna throw that one on my last Then the last one, another one with you, was out in Chicago.

Got to hit up Shore Acres, which was sick.

You know, I'm a big Seth Rainer fan, the Rainer man, so those are kind of that's my list.

Yeah, that that dirt golf was an unforgettable experience, you know.

Yeah that that was really fun.

I don't know, you know how often you can go to a piece of property and go out and you know, put the cups and the pins in the ground and actually go play like thirteen or fourteen of the holes that you're planning out and actually make it playable. But it was definitely really cool. So that was probably that was one of my favorite rounds of the year.

Yeah, John's got to get out there next time we go. All right, so I'll give you my ten, not in any particular order. I have a Marine country club in Dayton, which is recently redone by Keith Fosser. It's an alec Knipper Campbell design and I had been told by somebody that it was like one of the twenty five best courses in the country, and I kind of was like, oh, yeah, whatever, and then I went out and played it like and he said classic courses in the country, and like it.

It is.

It is very very cool and a not too tough of a golf course for like a beginner. Is one of the coolest things I think about that place is that a thirty handicap can go out there and have a decent time because those contours can really help them. And it's you don't spend very much time looking for golf balls. One that I went out with you, Zach

You know.

I walked off sand Hills and I was like, Wow, that might be the best golf course in the world. And then I walked off Crystal Downs a couple of weeks later and was like, whoa, that might be the best golf course in the world. I mean, that place with the land, the greens, it is truly truly amazing. A funny story from there was I was I played.

I also saw Culver for the first time this year, and I'm with you there. I was astonished at at how cold that place was. What a neat little nine hole golf course.

I would say, nothing to do, nothing to do about your list. But one of the stories you tell in there about the guy when you played Crystal Downs kind of the same thing when I played Marion. Something that I've learned in the last couple of years is it's just something like either people get it.

Or they don't, you know, and it's nothing.

You know, there's nothing wrong with the people that don't get it about like, you know, really good golf course architecture, but it's just something, you know, there's just people out there that just don't understand it and they don't get it. And that's you know, something that I didn't I couldn't grasp I couldn't get my head around it for a couple of years, thinking, you know, there were people out

But it just it just kind of happens. It's kind of weird.

Yeah, he was. He kept going on and on and on about how awesome Arcadia Bluff was, but like that, and I mean, that's a really cool place. It's it's a beautiful place that you'll like the views are unbelievable and I really enjoyed playing out there, but like it's not a place that I'm ever dying to go back and play. But like Crystal Downs, Like I like woke up this morning thinking about like the the sixth hole there and how how cool it is. You know, It's

Yeah, It's just it's just one of those things.

Yeah, Well you hope, you hope. It's a matter of sort of education progressing along as people see more courses. I mean, look, not for nothing, but the three of us have seen a lot of golf courses, good and bad. And when you when you have that, I mean, look, when I first started out and got into the game and was really you know, fresh to this and seeing new places. You know, I was more enamored, most likely at that point with a lookout over a lake than

Know, I don't see what the big deal is.

You know, that's that's a real shame. And hopefully, you know, those people eventually do come around, and I think a lot of people do. And I'm one of them, you know, I'll admit to that. I am absolutely a person who early on could not grasp the real significance of certain places and certain concepts. But as I saw mover and I developed a greater basis of knowledge, I was more able to do those kind of things. So I hold out hope.

For Yeah, the I think that it is so true, it's and it require you know, there's just the hardest thing is is learning this stuff. It can't be done overnight. It's and you know, frankly like some people play golf for different reasons, you know, So it's uh, I always wonder what the top one hundred ranking lists with in this almost impossible to do. But if if if C like ocean views wasn't a part of it, or water views like where certain places would rank very true.

Look, I'm a photographer in addition to being a golfer. And so I love nothing more than a golf course sitting next to an ocean, and it's a factor and how I look at golf courses. Again, I admit to that. But it is interesting to see how a place like on the modern side, Bowing Yale or sand Hills, or on the classic side, a place like I mean, Short Acres is a great example. It's right there next to a lake, but there are no views of the lake.

Zach. You're you're building a course without any ocean views. How would you how would you combat that?

Yeah, you know, my my options for ocean views and you we're limited so now, but you know, at the end of the day, when when you see like the number one course in the world, Pine Valley is in the middle of like the pine barrens, no ocean views and it's consistently ranked number one, it kind of gives you hope that you know you can do it.

So it's just it's.

Just things, Uh, you know, you hope you build a really good golf course that people have fun at and enjoy, and that's kind of the only thing you can do.

Do you guys have.

Also, I mean I've seen the photos of your day out there, and you know, you might not have an ocean, Zach, but you've got some pretty incredible views at that place.

Yeah, it's it's it's good, you know, I kind of I'm always.

A little uh worried when I take people out out there because I'm so spoiled with, you know, living in Utah my whole life and grew you know, growing up in Park City and having these unbelievable mountain views.

And so when you go there, you don't know how.

People will react really when they see it, but it usually, I mean everyone I've taken out there has always been pretty blown away with with how cool it is.

So that's always nice.

I can't wait to see you.

Yeah. So let's move on to the uh to the biggest surprises? What uh what places that might not have made that the ten best that you saw list that really surprised you.

Do you mean to go first whatever.

Whatever order you want to go, Zach, you want to.

Go no, no, Cavalier, go first, all right, I'll name a few, so some of these are more surprising than others.

But uh. On the list of places that really exceeded my expectations this year or gave me something I wasn't expecting, Bellao Country Club is a place that really blew.

My socks off.

I thought it was absolutely incredible. I went in there thinking that it was going to be really rough around the edges, given that at the time they were scheduled to close for a Tom Doak restoration, And usually when a course is undergoing a restoration, it's for a pretty significant reason given the costs. So I wanted to see it before so that I could.

Compare it after.

And what was on the ground at the time, and this was in May, was astonishing to me. I thought it was incredible. One of the most ingeniously ratied golf courses that I'd ever seen, and some truly out just outstanding golf holes there. So the idea that Tom Doak is now there working on restoring it to the George Thomas original design excites me to know and and I can't wait to get back. That was a great one. Colorado Golf Club by Coran Crenshaw outside of Denver, was

Uh.

If you ever get a chance to go out the Vali Neilist for your listeners, make sure, just like at dan and Dunes with Preserve, make sure you're building time to play the Mulligan Course, because I guarantee you you have never seen anything like this place. The wildest screens I have ever seen on a golf course. I don't know what Tom Doak was thinking or doing or drinking when he built these things, but I am very much in favor of whatever he did to create these things,

ZB.

Yeah, So when I was thinking about this, there was definitely one place that was in my top ten new courses for twenty seventeen that I totally just botched and missed.

Baltimore Country Club was so sick, like I was.

We had went out. We were trying to play Burning Tree the week of the Quick and Loans National in Washington, DC, and that kind of fell through. So we went up and played Elkridge, which is an old rainer course kind of just I guess north of Baltimore, and someone reached out on Twitter and was like, hey, if you're over there, you should come over to you know, Baltimore Country Cloud. It's like the best course in in the area. And

To hole, really really good.

There was no real like low points or spots that kind of felt like they didn't belong. It was really solid all eighteen and then the Lost Farms course was a core crunch awe had one of the coolest opening stretches I've ever seen on a golf course. And then the finish there was pretty strong too.

So I got a question, how would you compare like Melbourne golf to like say like New York or Philly Like as a golf scene.

I would say, it's you know, just as good. Uh what's cool? And you know when I played in Philly this year, we went Marion, Ironomic and Pine Valley.

You know they're all within forty minutes of each other. Same thing.

You get up to Long Island and you know you go play some of those places. Obviously National and Shinney and Southampton are right there, but then everything else, you know, it is within an hour.

I would say maybe an hour and thirty minutes. The difference with Melbourne is everything's like five minutes away. So you know, you got you.

Got Victoria, both courses at Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath, Metro, Yari Yara. You know you've got all these courses commonweal, you've got fifteen golf courses that are like world class courses within like five to ten minutes of each other. So I would say that's kind of the biggest difference is just the proximity.

They're just it is crazy.

So somebody actually, I think Ogilvy was telling me it was actually kind of just by chance that it happened. All the courses originally in Melbourne were kind of near the downtown area and then it started getting busy and a lot of the clubs were like, you know, we should we should like move our course because we don't want to be like where it's this busy, and they just happened to pick like that area and it was

Area Yeah, that's that's cool. What about that. I was wondering about that Keeney Park place.

I was just I just had it on my list right there, Keeney Park in Heart. I went over there a couple times actually during the week of the Hartford Tournament, and it's really cool. It's kind of got like a twist on a lot of template holes and it's it's really neat. I would highly recommend it to anybody that's kind of up there to at least go check it out.

I mean, I mean, they were really cool out there. It wasn't too busy, but I thought it was really fun. I enjoyed that a lot.

And then my last one would probably be the Bad Little Nine at Scottsdale National. I went out there this year during the waste management on a Wednesday, and that thing is crazy, how cool it is like out of this world.

By the way, second second vote for Keeney Park here. I played there last fall while I was up in Hartford for a trial, and I thought that was just super cool place. It's a muni that they're they've been putting some money back into and they just have some fantastic holes there. I was really surprised would have made my list this year had I played in twenty seventeen.

That's the pictures Zach sent me of that place, Like I've like instantly, I now have it like circled if I'm ever within, you know, anywhere close to what's it costs, like thirty forty bucks.

That's what I was going to say. I was going to say, like twenty five.

Yeah, it's that's the type of golf course that needs to live more. And like I don't know how conditioning is there, but like looking past the conditioning and looking at like the cool golf shots you get a hit and the interesting situations you get in is just so important. That's I've got a couple of those places on my list of surprises. Two of them are in Cleveland. So this place Mannikiki, which is the old Donald Ross and

Yo. Andy.

So there's there's this course in uh in Cleveland. It's you know, it's like ten minutes away from from the country club. It's called Acacia. It was this old Donald Ross track that went under. They're going to build like houses on it. But there's this Highland Park place that's literally like right across the street from Canterbury that is like this thirty six hole like public place. I don't really, I don't know much about it. I think it's okay.

But they lost it. Now it's just like some park.

Overgrown like like like some w like like reservation they've turned it into for the next couple of years until they build houses on it.

I thought you would have liked that, though. Have you ever heard of that place, Acasha?

I haven't. It just makes me sad.

It's yeah, it was.

This guy when I was up having lunch in Cleveland was telling me about it, and he was like, yeah, man, we did every We tried so hard to make them do like that. There was some like tax break they could take if they if they flipped the courses and did it at the other one, but the city ended up not doing it. And this guy was so bumped because he grew up playing at this Acacia Donald Ross course.

But I wanted to go check it out.

But it's all overgrown now. You can't even like recognize anything anymore.

It sucks.

It's twenty seventeen. It's going to be the year I think back and remember how I got way too deep in the municipal golf game, and that just how maddening it is, and how oh god, it's just a nightmare.

Andy, two courses right now, if you could, if you could take them back to what they originally were, or like what they were meant to be.

What two courses would you change?

Public or any courses, any course in America? Oh man, I wasn't ready for this question.

Okay to you too, John.

Pebble Beach would be one of mine.

I mean, augusta.

Right old beach.

You see old pictures of Pebble Beach, and look, Pebble Beach.

Is obviously a great course as it sits today. But if you ever see old pictures of.

Pebble floating around online with the dunes and the exposed stand and the oddly shaped greens and the beautiful bunkers, Uh, it will make you weep for what could be there.

Yeah, so that's yeah, I got one for you guys. Sharp Park, the Mackenzie and San Francisco. That was like the public cyper's point. I mean, like if you could somehow, which I don't think is possible, it would just get washed away. But like they had two he had two holes that played right down the shoreline of the Pacific Ocean,

I've been to Sharp Park, Andy, but I've never played it. I'm hoping I'll be out there in two weeks and it's on my list, so I'm hoping to get a look at it while I'm out there.

I would be careful, don't I guess there's been a rash of people punching in the backs of windows and stealing stuff out of cars, so you know, put put your stuff in your trunk.

I appreciate the pro tip.

Maybe all maybe yeah, that thick shot, Yeah, you know, potential sponsor of the pod uber But then, uh, I mean I would say Sharp Park, and I think I think, I mean, Yale would be an interesting one to look at.

Oh yeah, I think I think that would probably be That'd be a pretty cool one to to look at. There's so many, it's tough. I mean, Lido Course is the number one. Yeah, but I don't think you can get that one back. So we you know, we'll get it. We'll get that one away.

But what about you, Yeah, I don't know. Uh, Pebble would be a cool one.

Like like John was saying, those those pictures you see are just out of control, and then yeah, I mean you guys kind of mentioned all of them.

There's nothing no more to add. I'm good, all right.

So where are you guys looking? Uh, what's the let's just say one city slash like densely concentrated area that you are dying to see in twenty eighteen.

Well, for me, Andy, it is on the Atlanta Chattanooga area. It's the only area I had on my list in twenty seventeen that I didn't get to. I've played very little golf in and around that area, and I know they're not really next to each other, but they're certainly doable on the same trip.

You know us, You guys, we didn't play around at National Golf Links like we talked about, and you guys didn't go to Sweens like you guys promised me.

That's what I'm saying. I get asked about Sweden's Code more than any other.

Course now now that I remember that, Like, I probably shouldn't have reinvited you guys on until you did that.

Maybe right, But twenty eighteen will not pass without me getting down there. I am dying to see Peach Tree. It's probably my number one US wish list course nowadays. I've just heard so many amazing things about it. I'm dying to play there.

I'd like to see east Lake. I'd like to see Cousca Willa.

I certainly would like to see Honors. I'd love to see those two little nine hole or Sweeten's Cove. Like I said, I get asked about it all the time. Everybody I know who's played there just raves about the place. So I really want to get down there and see that. I'd like to see Sawani, which I believe is a gil Hans restoration or maybe an original. I'm not really sure.

You know, there's there's another course. Out there. That's like in Georgia. It's kind of in the sticks that I stumbled across called Old Tocoa and it's a it's an accent Dave Axelin design, who's been you know, one of you know, Corn Crenshaw's right hand Matt Man for like, And it looks incredible and it's probably about an hour from Sweetens.

Nine holes, right, they're trying to make it eighteen though.

Yeah, it looks really cool. Beautiful, beautiful bunkering. Yeah, I'd add that into your list.

Picture that.

So much good golf down there that just is waiting. So I'm dying to go down there. And I know you only ask for one. But the other thing I need to do is I need to get back to Ohio. You guys are just talking about Cleveland area courses. I did get to Ohio for a very short trip early in the summer in twenty seventeen when I played Camargo and I also played Arfield Village and the Golf Club, all of which were exceptional. But there are like twenty five golf courses in Ohio that I just hear nothing

Yeah for me, I mean, I can't really narrow it down to like one place, but Sweeten's is kind of on the top of the list.

I'm gonna get out there, hopefully for DJ's birthday.

And then.

But man, there's a bunch of places in San Francisco that I need to check out. I want to go to check out Myopia and Essex up in the Boston area, and then sand Hills.

Camargo, Crystal Downs. Just too many, too many that I need to go to.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I literally I don't know if I'm gonna be in Chicago for like a week this summer, but I'm uh, I think so I got I gotta go to New York. I gotta go to New York and Boston and you know, a bunch of places, but under the rate are I really am excited. I'm going to go up to Detroit for a while, and I don't think I'm even going to play Oakland Hills. I want to play the other courses in Detroit more than Oakland Hills. Yeah, I want to do Orchard Lake,

True, so true. Hey, and Andy, by the way, you bring up another.

I guess I brought it up with Orchard Lake.

But that's like the fourth Keith Foster restoration we've mentioned on this podcast. So just shout out to Keith Foster, one of the most humble people that I've ever had the pleasure of meeting in the golf business, and everything the guy touches turned the absolute golf goal. I have never played a Keith Foster restoration that I didn't absolutely love. Zak mentioned Baltimore Country Club earlier. Keith Foster did that restoration.

I really love his business model, which is like he only takes three jobs a year. The club has to go all in or he doesn't take the job. And he has like a three year waiting list, you know, he has he's booked for three years, which is it's just crazy, you know, doesn't.

Surprise me at all.

The guy is just incredible with what he does. He does absolutely fantastic stuff with zero ego by the way. I mean, he is insistent upon the fact that after he has done, his name not appear as an architect on the Philly Country Club wanted to list him as an architect alongside A. W. Tilling Hass. They wanted to have a Keith Foster event for him in his honor for the great work he did there. He turns it all down.

Hey, Keith, did he did TBC Old Wife the latest restoration too?

Right?

I believe that's correct.

He killed it there too.

I mean that's everywhere.

Yeah, that's everywhere really good. It was always cool, but it's it's really really good.

Now.

That's great.

Here.

I got to get back there.

I haven't played a secc old.

Boy in a while.

Yeah, I need to get there. I mean, that's where. Where don't I need to go? That's the better question. So, uh, we'll get to some Twitter questions here. You know, first and foremost, Sam Sam Schumer ask John why why don't you sell a calendar? But you do?

Yes, I do, and and or I did this year. Thank you for asking about that. I had a couple of people make this request in the fall, and so I decided to to go ahead and try to put one together. So I enlisted the help of my sister, who is a graphic designer and who did a wonderful job putting together a little calendar for me, and I put it out on Twitter that people wanted to buy it, they could, and the idea was to raise a little bit of money.

For a charity.

And I thought that I would sell a couple of them, but to be perfectly honest with you, the response was amazing and I sold more than I ever thought I would, and as a result, we were able to recently make a nice donation of twenty five hundred dollars to the Woodstock Sanctuary, which is an animal rescue up in New York that my wife is very involved in. And I should say that my wife is a very big supporter

But during the process, which.

Can obviously be hard, on people. She would occasionally go up to Woodstock to volunteer and do a little bit of work, and as she always says, as much as it's an animal sanctuary, it's really a human sanctuary as well, and she would always feel really good and refreshed when she would leave. And so it's been a charity that we've supported for a while and be able to donate some money to them. It was really the best thing about twenty seventeen for me. It was honored to do that.

And good news is is still not twenty seventeen, so there's still time. So we'll put a link in the in the podcast and on social media so people can know where to get them.

That's nice of you. Orders are still trickling in and I still do have plenty of calendars sitting around my apartment waiting to go out. So thank you for that. Man.

All right, so Carvon for the course, wants to know what courses you've played that were not very photogenic but that we're very photogenic actually, that were photogenic but not architecturally sound.

Well, as I said on Twitter, I think the big one for this is is Trum National La. It's a golf course that I it really sticks out in my mind for several reasons, some good, some not so good. It is on an unbelievably beautiful piece of property. It's just south of La It's on a little finger of land that sticks out on the other side of the road into the ocean. You have beautiful views of I guess it's I guess Catalina Island out there in the Pacific Ocean. It's it's hanging right off a cliff on

Lot of goofy tilt to the course.

It's almost like playing golf on like a rice farming terrace, where you know, you go across the property one way, then you step down twenty feet, come back across the property the other way, and then down another twenty feet. It's just it's a very strange design and given the location and the land, I mean, look, it's probably gonna fall off into the sea one day anyway, because it

Zb you got any courses that you've been just disappointed with, you had high hopes man that occurrence on the PGA Tour.

Yeah, Zach plays on tour, so he probably has a lot of them, but he's probably got to be a little careful.

You know.

We we Uh.

The good thing is the courses are in really really good shape every single week out on tour, so that that helps for sure. But yeah, we just we don't play a lot of amazing golf courses week in and week out.

They're they're pretty good for tournaments.

But you know, just as a as a big like architecture geek, there aren't too many awesome ones. Riviera is one that kind of sticks out that that is really good.

But I don't know, man, there I can't.

I didn't get to play like a ton of places this year that were that were new.

That were bad, you know what I mean.

Yeah, I kind of try and do a little research before I I'm a little bit of a you know, snob that way.

I like to go play really good places.

I got a question for you in that regard when you're out there playing in an event, because I know that you're certainly more architecturally inclined than most tour players and you're you know, on Thursday or Friday or Saturday or Sunday of an event, You're sitting there at two hunder par and you get to say the fifth hole, right, I mean, obviously you're locked in. You're you're playing your game,

As much in like the actual like Thursday through Sunday stuff. I kind of just tune it out a little bit. But in practice rounds, Yeah, for sure, it's something that you know, over the last couple of years, as I've gotten more involved with it and kind of more into it, it pops. But yeah, there are always times that I'm like, I also notice a lot of things that I, you know, tell to other people that they're just like, how would

So so you see a lot of things that help.

Yeah, that's uh. I get asked by a lot of people like do you have fun playing golf anymore? And it's like, you know, when when I play bad places, I do get a little frustrated, but you know, it's still golf. And then when I play the really great places, it just makes you appreciate it more.

You know.

I one place I forgot to mention was the Sandbox. This par three course up at sand Valley. It's super cool. It's Zach, you love it. It's all like template holes. Both of you guys would love it all, like pretty much like you've got like a mini Radan, You've got a mini Devil's asshole. You've got you know, many double plateaus. But you know, what do you guys think it is about?

Well, from my perspective, it just makes perfect sense if you're a destination, whether it's whether you're a destination club or a destination public resort, to have a course that people can go out on at the end of the day and just tool around on and get a quick nine or eighteen. And you know, I tell people who go to Bandon all the time, and the preserve out

It's a private club.

It's you know, they do have members from all over the country, so guys come in and stay there. But the short course of Pine Valley is just I can't imagine a better way to warm up for around the golf and going out and playing these ten holes that actually mimic the approaches into the hole on the main course.

Yeah, I mean, I just think they're a lot of fun, and that's kind of at the end of the day, what you you know, what you want out of a golf course or a destination is something to go enjoy and it's really easy to kind of take one or two clubs out and just go whip around with your friends, especially kind of as the day is ending and there's

Well that's the other thing too, Zach, is you can build a par three course. I mean, when you take away all of the land that's required for you know, three hundred yard two hundred and fifty yard t shots, you can build a really amazing set of greens and peas in a very compact area. And a lot of these areas that are compact, they can squeeze them into spots on the property that have some of the most spectacular features like a vandam. So you know, it's a no brainer from my perspective.

You know, another thing I think it does. And I don't know how you feel about this, zb is. I feel like it it lessens the skill gap when you play a short course.

You know, yeah, I mean you there's just.

There's less shots that you have to hit, you know what I mean. So it's exactly what you're saying. You know, when you go out and play like a championship golf course, you have to drive it long and straight, you have to hit good, you know, long irons, and you have to putt and hip well on most in most cases short courses or part three courses, you don't have to do that as much to you know, you know what I mean. So everyone that you're.

With, if people aren't all the same handicaps and skill level, you can all go out and have fun.

That It reminds me one of my favorite spots I keep forgetting things that there's this. So I was in Portland for my buddy's bachelor party college buddy and like my group of college friends, like very few golf first, Like you know, one of them had never played golf in his life or actually had played at once and he was like six or five. But we go and play this place in downtown, like close to downtown Portland.

You know.

It's like I found that place to be so much fun, and like all my buddies had a great time, even the guy that had never played golf before.

Yeah, I think that's that's where they're killing it right now. I mean, it's exactly what you said.

The skill gap is brought in so much more and you can just go have it's more about just having fun. You know, you're not necessarily going out to these courses to go shoot under par or try and shoot a low score. You're you're out there to have fun with your friends, and uh, that's what's so good about them.

I think, all right, this is a really so we we're running a low on time here, and I get it. We got a ton of questions, so we're gonna have to do some rapid fires. But this is a really good one for all of us. I'm gonna take it. Andrew Bailey wants template you know, I saw somebody getting in your grill yesterday. Zach about template holes, will say inspirra template slash inspiration hole power rankings, So give each of you give me top three, you know. Limit The reason why.

I would say the double Plateau is one that's really cool because you can just change it up so much. And along that same lines, the beer Itz Part three it just has so much versatility.

And then the punch Bowl because of how fun it is.

Power rankings for template number one for Dan because the best part three design, and golf number two the punch Bowl because it's awesome, and number three is a tougher one.

For me.

I'm going to say the always underrated eleven concept because it's really able to be duplicated in a variety of settings, and I always enjoy playing and they're always amongst my favorite hole on the course.

Yeah, I was gonna say, Levin, I'll change it now because I'm a contrarian. I'll go double Plateau. I love. I wrote an article for Golfers Journal, shout out Golfers Journal about double Plateau and how awesome it is because you can put it on dead flat land and it's like an incredible hole. So I'd say double Plateau, I say, I'll say the short hole. I love the short hole. I love that if you don't hit like a perfect wedshot, you have a very very good chance of making bogie,

All right, Hey, how good? How good is that? Stretched though?

At Fisher's eleven nine ten eleven twelve? Yeah, John, even.

Here, ridiculous, what's your favorite three whole stretch of Fishers. This is you know, we're going off the cuff. There's too many good questions.

Three four five is out of control.

Yeah, it's got to be three four five.

It has to be three four five, dude. I did.

I did a cool Twitter like giveaway this year. It was my friend's idea of putting a composite course together. But you had to do like two to four whole stretches at golf courses. I like that, and it was we got a lot of really cool courses, but that three to five at Fisher's Island is next level.

That's good as good as you know.

I have to give you some some crap because I responded twice, but you deleted the tweets because you kept changing the rules.

No, no, that's not true.

So then I lost interest, you know.

I had to.

I had The people were like they didn't understand it enough. I wasn't blaming it good enough, I guess.

But that's my bad.

I'll send you.

That's that's a neat question.

By the way, three four five fissures two three four at National one.

Two three at Chicago Cyprus?

What about one two three at Chicago golf.

Yeah, that works too. It certainly works too.

There's a lot of good ones. Yeah, fourteen or fifteen, sixteen, seventeen at Cyprus is one. Oh, this is the one you have to do my overrated, underrated seventeen at Cypress.

That's you two underrated. You think it's underrated. I think it's overrated. I know, and I get.

I think that part of the reason that you think it's overrated and I think it's underrated is because you're a far better golfer than I am. This is why I don't want the words in your mouth. But one of the reasons I think you think it's overrated is because you stand on that tea box and you're like, I know what I'm supposed to do here, and I can't do it because there's a clump of trees growing

See, I think it's overrated because I don't think there I think there was an actual intent to be able to go right event you know, when when the hole was planned out, so you could take an aggressive line right down the down the water and have a nice web shot in.

And that's.

That's interesting because my one play of cypress, I'll have you know that I went right unintentionally, but we'll put that aside. I went right and hit that little two yard strip of fairway and had a beautiful little wed shutter. Agree. So maybe maybe this talent Japp is not as big as we Maybe maybe that's the issue.

I think you should have admitted that you were on intentionally, like you know you are going for that. But do you know what I mean?

I feel like I do I do.

I feel like if there was if there was like a fifteen yard fairway, or you know, if there was a fifteen or twenty yard fairway on the right, So if the trees and the bunkers were just moved left, like twenty yards or fifteen yards to where you could play aggressive down the right, I think it would be such a better hole.

Not that it's a terrible hole or anything, but.

You know, it's I think the bottle concept off the tee, where if you take the aggressor the eleven concepts even or if you take the aggressive line off the tea, you have the perfect angle into the green. I do think exactly. I'm assuming the reason why there's not it is just because the Pacific Ocean had eaten a couple of yards of that fairway as a cli. Yeah, yeah, you make a very good point here, Zack. I certainly agree with that.

You know, maybe you should write a letter to Bill Corr, you know, tell me your thoughts. You seem to be very passionate about this.

I'll uh, I'll just have you calling. Yeah.

So, uh, let's see what's the what's the least photogenic course to photograph that is the best court? Like, you know, that doesn't get us due from.

Photos garden City all day long.

It's it's just tough to get an awesome golf.

Course that you just can't photograph because it's flat, it's surrounded by trees. There's just there's just not enough there to photograph. And you also missing photographs the depth and the scale of some of the bunkering there, which is just incredible. Oddly though, Chicago Golf Club, which is also relatively flat, I think, photographs very well, but for whatever reason, I have just had a hell of a time photographing Garden City in a way that does the course even

I know how good that first hall at at Garden City.

It's awesome. It's a great short par four with bunkers where you can end up lost in forever. I mean, the whole course is just incredible.

But it just doesn't photograph well.

It's just it's very difficult to get photographs of it that that actually give you a visual idea of what the course is all about.

All right?

Uh?

Which course from Philip Johnson has been the least willing to let you have free reign with your camera. You said you made a note that you wanted me to ask you this.

Well, so, I mean, it depends on I think you answer that question. Depends on what it is that I'm there for. I mean a lot of my photographs are taken while I'm playing the round of golf, and certainly I always ask permission to shoot photos while I'm on a golf course. Sometimes I'm out of course because they wanted me to come and take photographs, and that's very easy. Obviously,

And it does happen, it happens very rarely.

I think in all the photo the courses that I've shot, I think I've only ever bumped into that kind of thing two or three times. Uh, And it's always a very easy issue to resolve. But I guess my my point in this is, if you're gonna do this, and you're there as a guest and not specifically to photograph the course of the invitation, just make sure you're asking and your checking with people to make sure that what you're doing is okay.

Yeah, that's good advice. I would uh, I would second that. All Right, let's do some overrated underrateds in I'm sad there's so many good questions overrated underrated taking iPhone Pano photos.

Photos. I think that's way underrated. I think all iPhone photos are way underrated.

I love the Mini Pano. Shout out Peter Korbakas who taught me ed but very nice. Yeah. What about uh what about golf knickers? That's from Matt Weinmaker.

I go underrated, man, I show show your style man, pump it out.

Z B.

Yeah, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go overrated on that one.

You've got a different throwback passion now, huh.

Yeah, I'm I'm deep in the hickory game.

Uh.

Shout out to Matt Mollica down. That's it's so good, it's out of control. I got some for Santa brought me some for Christmas, So I'm excited to go hit some shots.

You know. Uh, I think I know this guy that I play amateur stuff with in in Chicago. He's like, uh, he plays in like the US Hickory Open. I'm gonna get in that. I gotta I gotta get a set of hickories.

Andy. I think you would love it. I think you Yeah, I.

Wonder if I could get crooked with a hickory manufacturer, you know, get Louisville Hill, you know, do the the golf blogger thing, get some handouts.

Crooked, crooked Andy.

It brings back all the wonderful architectural features.

That we love. Yeah, when when we played it at Royal Melbourne, I couldn't believe.

Just how different par fives were.

You know, you get these you get these cross bunkers like forty yard short, fifty yards short of the green that now you're kind of like, why did they even put that there? And you quickly realize like, okay, that's that's why those bunkers are there because if you mishitch shots at all, like you're in these death bunkers that you know, par fives are the whole.

A good score. Way underrated, Hickory, Yeah, underrated.

Those bunkers you were talking about. I always write, Mike, well, they add a lot of interest to layup shots or poor drives. So let's see we got another couple of good ones in here. Oh, friend of the pod, Simon Haynes, when are we going over across the pond?

Well?

First of all, shouting out to Simon, who runs an absolutely fascinating Twitter account of his own, I call it to Haynes Collection, where he posts old school pictures of golf courses. A lot of times he'll post a photo after I post one that is the same golf course from the same angle from about eighty to one hundred years ago. I don't know where he gets his archive from, but it's it knows no bounds. He's a great follow. People should follow him on Twitter. The answer to his

Yeah, I think I'm going to make a trip. I ideal world. I'd love to just pick up and live there for three months and spend a month in Ireland, month in Scotland, and month in England. But we got to see if the wife wife can get on board with that.

If you need a yeah, if you need a roommate, let me know.

Yeah, Well, we'll see if anybody you know needs a freelance writer. My wife would be a great one.

I'm not sure I could lawyer from the UK or if my job would be cool with that, But there's no harm in checking.

Your your law degree transfers if you're there for golf. I heard.

This is if it's not If that's not a real rule, it sounds like it should.

Zb you. You're going to go anywhere big this year. I feel like you need to go to mid Ocean.

Yeah, that'd be a good one, like a quick one. That's easy for me.

I need to go spend some time in San Francisco, but hoping to get back over for the Dunhill Links over across the Pond because that's next level golf over there is so good.

Take the Hickories too.

Yeah, I really want to do the Uh. I think the heath One courses interest me the most, which might people might say is crazy, but I want to play like walking, you know, woking, Woking. That's so not woke that I mispronounced it. All right, guys, thanks for coming on. Happy New Year. If anybody stayed with this to this long, I'm sorry, but.

Yeah, my apologies too. But you know how we like off we get talking about golf. Andy, seriously, thanks for having me. It's great to talk to you guys again. It's great to see what you've done with this podcast, DV.

We got to see it up sometime soon. In the meantime, I'll look.

Forward to catching you on TV here and there. But I appreciate what you guys do, both of you, and UH, it's always a pleasure talking golf.

We got to do the National, Yeah, we got to do the National. Yeah, that's fine done.

I'm willing to do that and get my ass kicked all over the golf course.

Just going to take a play with you guys there, so maybe we'll do it the Monday after ZB wins the US open next door.

Oh sick, I love it.

That works.

All right, See you guys, New Year.

Take care. Thanks guys, you've

Been listening to the podcast We do the digging for you.