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I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a brid egg Frida Egg Friday Friday.
Bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. In terms of you obviously have a passion for Golden Age golf and golf in general. Like when did you know you wanted to be a golf course architect?
I didn't know. I had no idea. I never played golf. I didn't understand golf. I was like Seth Rayner, you know the famous pull to McDonald talked about Seth Rayner. He didn't know a tennis ball from a golf ball. That was me, and I'm very thankful to Pete due who I got my career started with. He embraced the work that I was doing for him, the creativity that he allowed me to do as a shaper. I started as a shaper. I knew how to draw because I
was a high school drafting trade teacher by trade. But I started as a shaper, and I didn't think I wanted to be in this golf business. But the more and more Pete Dye sent me around looking at his golf courses, Old Marsh and PGA West, all these golf courses he had done, the golf club on and on and on, the more I started to understanding the beauty
of it. And his son Perry died sending me around to other golf courses, allowing me to go to Cyprus, point the Dye sending me to Saint Andrews in Scotland. They hooked me, man, They hooked me big time. And they hooked me because they showed me a different way to build a golf course, not that I knew any other way than just hands on. I realized that the only way to do it right, as Pete Dye told me,
was to do it yourself. And because they taught me from the ground up, I understood and I appreciated how these things were built. And to go on to work at Pasa Temple and learn from McKenzie and Rainer courses uh Yeamans Hall. I did work at Mid Ocean UH, San Francisco Golf Club, Garden City, UH, the Bobbling Club, on and on on. Recently sank in the head uh in Nantucket, Emerson Armstrong one off design. I started to
realize all of these guys had the same passion. And it's addictive, and it's it's all encompassing, and it's funny when I send times, I send emails or text out at two in the morning because I'm thinking about golf. I'm all wrapped up in it. And you want you say, well, why are you wrapped up in it? You didn't grow up in the game. Well, because the way Pete and his son Perry shared their experiences with me, they allowed me to travel. They allowed me to see new and
and and and beautiful places. Cypress Point when I was a punk, the National Golf Links before I was uh, before I was thirty, before it was fashionable to travel and look at architecture and it just became all encompassing. And because I like working with my hands, I like building things, it was a perfect scenario for me and for them to allow me to draw, do grading maps,
work in the office, do drainage plans. It was all just a big foundation that I had no idea what I was doing, but I was doing the best I could do because that's what my mom and dad taught me in the little town. I grew up in whatever you do, do it well, work hard at it, and the benefits will reap and they have, and I've had the chance to meet some wonderful people, and all because Pete allowed me to seek out and look at different golf courses and he embraced me, he trusted me, and
he let me build and be creative. And who doesn't want to be creative And who doesn't want to build something cool that they could stand and say I built that? And who doesn't want to be out in the open air and the open space and to travel and to see beautiful places. I mean, who doesn't want to do that? Well? I didn't think I did. And thirty seven, thirty eight years later, I'm still doing it and I still have that passion, and the day that it burns out is
the day I'm done. But whether it's an interview a couple of days ago, or i'm working I'm working with Mike Kaiser on some projects, working with new designs, working with restorations, it's the passion. And when that passion's gone, you know I'll probably be done. But maybe sometimes it's too much passion. I can't sleep at all. That's how I got started.
I end up doing the same thing. I am like, you get crazed, but you get crazed the A lot of people say that we're in this second Golden Age, and something that seems to be to me A common theme is Pete Die with Yeah, I mean, and I feel like he doesn't get enough credit for what he did.
Well. I think Pete Dye was People always ask me about the Mount Rushmore of golf course architects, and Pete Dye should be up there, and you know you're going to say, wow, that's just because you work for him. Well, Pete Dye taught me about detail and taught me about being hands on. And look at how many people he spun off. Look how many people work for him. Lee Schmidt, Brian Curly, Bill Cooor, the list goes on and on
and on. And I think about all of the people who got that chance to work for Pete, and I think, Wow, we all had that same attachment. Pete putting his hand on your shoulder saying, you know this is what we're gonna do here and trust you. Tom Doak working for Pete dye pretty cool play, Pretty cool that we all had a chance to work for the man.
We've talked a little bit about McDonald and Rayner and National and I'm a huge Rainer nut and McDonald nut. And one of the things I've heard people that like to diminish Rainer and McDonald are they say that their use of templates were unimaginative.
What would you say to that?
I would laugh, I would laugh. And the reason I would laugh is because people who say they're unmattered, unimaginative don't understand why they came about where they came from. And yes, it's easy to say, oh, just another of a dan or it's easy to say just another alpshole or a hog's back, or a plateau or a short or eden. I could go on and on and on,
but the intent of the strategy. I was just talking to somebody about an article that Charles Blair MacDonald wrote and Golf Illustrated February issue nineteen oh seven, and he described in detail each hole and how he would create these wonderful holes that he brought from the UK. He selected the best holes of the UK and brought it with him, leading many leading authors of that time, Harry Varden, James Braid, Horace Hutchinson and John Lowe to discuss what
the best holes were. And all McDonald was trying to do was spice up the architecture in America because he thought it was very bland and he wanted to bring these golf of course is to America to showcase paraphrasing, these wonderful holes in all of their glory, these ideal holes of the UK in Scotland. And so when people talk about unimaginative, how many different times did Rayner use
the short in different topographies? Short Acres? I mean the short at Short Acres versus the short at the National versus the short at Yamen's Hall that I just recently redid this past spring and summer. They're all different. Yeah, somebody would say, yeah, they all play one, but the style of the green, its location, the micro climate, the wind, the trees, the open space. Unimaginative. Yeah, you could say they're all short and you could say they're all the dans,
and you could say they're all edens. But their location, the intent, the location in the round of the routing, the topography that was used, the width of the fairways, the type of ground it's played on rock versus sand, I mean unimaginative. What I think is unimaginative is bunkers that are put out at three hundred and ten yards left and right in the fairway on every hole. That's unimaginative.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
I think the other thing with Rayner, like you know, having played short acres so many times, is like you know, you think about some of the greatest holes of short acres, like the jump to mine are like eleven and fifteen, and those are holes that are just you know, cut into the natural landscape and aren't templates.
You won't see those holes anywhere else.
No, No, And yes you're gonna see the radan, but it's in a different presentation, and you are going to see the eden different presentation the road hole, but it's in a different presentation, each one of them capturing the essence of the idea but slightly differing in the way they're presented. And to me, that's the imaginative way that they were applied to the landform which seth Rayner, Charles Banks, Joe Barton all were involved with as well as McDonald.
They were taking the intent of those holes, spicing up golf in America and trying to recapture what was good for strategy, and they just took it across the country, applied it in different locations in different ways, and we all I enjoy them. Maybe not everybody enjoys them, but I enjoy them for their intent and their opposite of unimaginative, imaginative ways they were applied to the tobography. I mean, what Brian Palmer has done at Shore Acres, the superintendent
to present that golf course is off the charts. And you know that's the key to these golf courses. It's the superintendent's involved with places like short Akers, Scott Pavalco at the Baba Link and Brian Moore at Glenn Vy the clubs I'm familiar with Chicago Golf Club. All of those guys bring out the character of those quoted unimagined the holes like every time I hear that word, now, I'm gonna think of this discussion.
It's so do you think that the perception of templates would be better if they were labeled as inspirations instead?
You know, that's a good That's I've always thought about what templates mean to people, what the ideal holes mean to people. I think template holes are so vague in their and what they mean. I mean when you think about what McDonald and Rayner are brought to America in the early nineteen hundreds, I'm sorry McDonald. Rayner just helped
McDonald create these ideal holes. It was a time in America when architecture was so simple simple in this presentation, McDonald and Rayner brought these holes to life at the National Golfings of America, the Leito Golf Club, the Yale Golf Club, and people started to appreciate maybe what architecture and golf could could evolve to. And it's no different than what the seventies and eighties, or even post war fifties and sixties brought to America and golf. The seventies
and eighties, with major amounts of dirt moved. And even when you talk about the nineties, the late nineties when the Sandhills was built and the new minimalist style of golf architecture, it's no different. McDonald and Rayner were bringing those inspiration holes, as you say, different than the fifties and sixties what golf provided America the seventies and eighties with TPC sawgrass and these clubs that were being built
with massive mounts of dirt move. And now the nineties what Corn Crenshaw did at the sand Hills and minimalism and what they ushered in. So it was all different styles and just a different part of the history of what golf was evolving in America.
Yeah, I had Mike Clayton on about a year ago and he said, when you think about it, like, you know, the strategy of great golf holes is really simple, and it's almost impossible for a whole not to be inspired by another great hole. Like it's almost impossible to come up with like a truly unique, original idea.
And I think that the only way that you could is if you brought in somebody who had never played golf, which is what Pete Dye used to always appreciate about me that I didn't play golf. If you brought somebody in that had not seen a five hundred or a thousand golf courses, if you brought somebody into the business that didn't understand that good golfers were different than bogie golfers, that is the only way that you would bring in
a new perspective in golf design. Somebody that was completely oblivious to all the patterns, all the strategies, all the different things that had occurred from the early nineteen hundreds. Today, you'd have to be a complete newbie, as some people would call him, and then maybe you would find something completely different.
It's funny the a lot of like disruption that happens with tech companies. Like the founder of Uber was never a cab driver, and.
So that tells you that they saw something different and not the same old thing. And I think, you know, I made a comment about this young man, Zach Blair. He's going to create a golf course in Utah, I believe, and to me, he has probably one of the better chances of eating something different because he won't have these preconceived notions that golf course architects, golf course designers golf course builders have. I'll be curious to see what he turns out.
Zach is a pod regular.
I was out at his site a couple of months ago walking around looking at how holes could fit in.
So you had a couple of movies.
And I'm curious to see what it turns out to me. If I'm in the Salt Lake, Sydney area, I'm going to snake my way up there and take a look.
I'm sure he'd have you.
Yeah, I imagine you can't really if you don't have the superintendent on board and involved, you can't really have a successful restoration or build man as well, pack.
Up and go home, Andy, because they are the key to the unlocking the playability of these wonderful ideas. I'll never forget walking around with. I had this discussion with a friend of mind, David Wilber. I never have I remember having a discussion about Ken Nice at the Pacific Dunes and Old Mac and for all the golf courses at Bands Restore. He was the lead growing architect along with Troy Russell Abandon Dunees. He bought into the notion of what made these golf courses good and what would
make the architecture good. And that was Fescue and that same goes for Shore Acres and Brian Palmer and Scopavolo to Bobbi. They bought in to the architecture that was being presented and the way they were going to play the golf course, the bounce and roll that had to happen in order for them to be to realize their
full potential. And when we redid the greens and fairways and historical bunkers at games Hall this past spring and summer, it was Brooks Riddle and his staff, wonderful staff that embraced everything that we were doing and we were going to do the best to make the morning lines the right way, the green's the right way, the historical bunkers the right way. And if they don't buy in, Andy, as I said, back up and go home, because it has to be a team effort as well as the committee.
Everybody has to buy into what you're doing. If there's detractors, it's not as good. If there's naysayers, it's not as good. But if the team is all one, shapers, construction team, assistance, superintendents, the team, Andy, I can't tell you how many times I want to talk about the team. Take the eye out of it and put we we the team. We at Short Acres, we at all of these places I've had a chance to work at. They are the key to make an architecture happen, and I just don't think
enough of them get credit. Yeah, you should talk to more superintendents.
I know it's something.
You know.
What I need is I need more hours in the day. Yeah, find me, find me thirty hour days. But I definitely planned to do more in twenty eighteen. I interviewed Kyle Hegland, the sand Hills superintendent, a couple months ago, and he said something along the lines I don't want to misquote him, that, you know, almost every super should be an architecture nut, and if they aren't, they aren't necessarily doing their job to their best of their abilities. I you know, I
don't want to misquote it. It was there was a lot of context around that. So, but do you believe in that?
You know, I believe the superintendent has to have the working knowledge of his or hers the design. The Golden Age design CJ. Penrose and Justin Manden. CJ. Penn was a sanctity and Justin Maddenen at Pasa Temple are both
recapturing the essence of a Golden age design. If CJ doesn't understand that that Emerson Armstrong this was his only golf course he ever designed, and he and he didn't understand that Emerson was trying to bring Links golf to America and he had this wonderful sight that he could do it on. If CJ didn't understand that, and c G. CJ. Penrose only knew that you know, uh, you you water and you fertilizer and you mow, and you don't understand what Link's golf is, then I don't know if that
he could recapture the essence of Sancity Head. And the same for Justin at Posa Temple. If Justin didn't understand who Alistair mackenzie was, uh, then he probably wouldn't be so uh tolerant of the amount of work that he has to put in to keep the look of the bunkering and the greens at Posit Temple so well uh uh appealing as far as the look of him. And when he painstakingly took Positive Temple through the drought years and create did this firm and fast playing conditions with
Brown outside of the playing surfaces. If he didn't understand where Alistair McKenzie came from and what Posita Temple should stand for, then he may may not have been so successful. So I believe the statement that superintendent should have at least some understanding of Golden Age design so that he understands the strategy and layout and how they were maintained in that era. So I agree with him totally.
Yeah, speaking of Justin, I got to see the new water facility and meet him when I was out there a couple of months ago, and that that's pretty cool. So he's not just a super noow, he's like a water treatment specialist.
You know. The funny thing is all superintendents are water management people, and I think Justin took it to the next level.
So with Old Mac, building Old Mac, you got to build a modern day rainer McDonald, you know, representation. How much different was it from restoring a rainer? And then conversely, what what have you learned from building that you now take to your restorations.
One of the there was two pivotal points in the in the design and construction of Old McDonald that were
for me. For me, personally turning points. The first was we had a group of consultants that were helping with us with the project, the late George Botta, who who what a wonderful man, Carl Olsen and Brad Klein, and we were standing on just in front of this fire road or access road that would be the future of a dan at Old McDonald and I had the group together and I asked the question to all of them.
It was a sunny day, mid afternoon. I'll never forget this, Andy, I said, how much does this golf course have to look like the ideal holes that McDonald and rayn are built at the National And almost to a man, Tom was standing there as well, Almost to a man, they all said, it doesn't. And that was a philosophy that was that now shaped the way we were going to build the golf course. I spent, you know, one hundred ninety days there, over one hundred and eighty five ninety
days there. I was going to now take that ideal about. It doesn't have to, but it does have to have the inspiration behind the hole. You know, what did the short hole stand for? Well, you can't build a short hole and make it two hundred and ten yards long, right, Well.
Some people, some people in the seventies thought that was the right thing for short holds.
That's one of the funniest things when i'm these during rainer courses, when some people they say they want to make it longer, and I said, well, then we'd have to change the name. We would have to change it the longer, not shorter, and so that usually shuts everybody up, not in a domeaning way. So that was the first That was kind of the first principle. It doesn't have to look like but it has to play like the
intent of the strategy. So that was like, it was like, oh great, now the Redan doesn't have to be exactly like the Redan, and the Eden doesn't have to be exactly like the Eaton. It should have the straft bunker, it should have that. That's important in the Eden. And the double plateau should have double plateau green. But how it's configured, you know, that's not that important. And the second important day for me was the day that ten nights myself and Mike Kaiser walked the first three shaped
holes at Old McDonald I'm sorry, the four holes. So we looked at the we looked at Sahara's third green, Bruce Hepner had shaped that in their wonderful job. We walked the hog's back the fourth hole and the green had been shaped on. I can't remember who did that one. We got to the fifth hole and Tony Russell was just finishing shaping up. Tony Russell is a famous shaper
of Core Crenshaw fame and Bannon Dune's fame. He had just finished all the little contours that I had asked him to put in on short and then we walked to the sixth hole. And when Mike Kaiser walked those four holes, my heart was like coming out of my chest because I knew that he was going to respond either one way or the other. One way he was going to say this looks great, or too he would say, I don't know, maybe this maybe we should think about something here or there. And I Mike Kaiser has all
my due respect. He's the great enabler. He allows you to be creative. After we walked those fourth holes, he looked at those green sides, he looked at what was there, and he said, is this what McDonald and Rayner would have done? And I said to Ken Nice and him I said, yes, I believe. So they didn't exactly look like the ideal holes, but they were representative of that.
And he said, I like him, Jim. And from that day forward it was like, we are going to build something really cool here, and with the help of talented chapers, our in house construction crew, a talented group of people assisting us with the ideas. It was Mike Tiser's willing us to be creative and to allow creativity with the interpretation of those holes, the ideal holes, the heat and the short, the long hogs back and we put our own we put our own spin on them. And that
was the key. Does that answer your question?
Yeah? Yeah, I love it.
It's uh, you know, it's it's not a replica course, but a representation of representation.
Just those two conversations set forth the gears and the rotation and and the movement to create all the donald Yep.
It's uh.
I love the the idea of and it seems like it's the I haven't been there yet, but the right land and the right setting for you know, a really good course that represents the ideal holes of the British Isles.
And with the window in your face playing the long with the with the breeze in your face, it feels long. But the way the units were put in one of the things I was adamant about. The unit's I call him. Other people don't like that term, but one tee where everything's motive one hYP I started doing that at Pacific Dunes, just one teeing ground and then they would move the blocks around. There weren't separate team blocks. I love that
presentation that looked. And we took that to the next level at Old McDonald back in two thousand and nine, and Mike embraced it. Everybody embraced it. The one t doesn't make you feel like you're playing way back, and that you could move up farther and farther and you don't feel like you're moving up a tea. You're just playing on the ground. And that was what allowed this golf course to play the way it did. And that's the imaginative part that Mike TiSER allowed us to have.
And he is as much to credit as anybody the enabler allowing a creative freedom.
So let's get some over rated underrated? Are you ready?
All right? All right?
You just gotta pick overrated or underrated, okay, front to back sloping greens, underrated, Donald Ross underrated, underrated William Flynn, Oh boy.
I would say underrated. Yeah, And I say underrated because I think some of his golf courses away from Philadelphia are overrated, but overall, I think he's underrated.
So you know you you went underrated on everything. Tell us one thing that's overrated.
The way golf courses are maintained. They are so over maintained that I think sometimes we lose a grass, but what golf is supposed to be about. Does that fit in the overrated?
Oh yeah, I think that. I agree. You know, we agree with that to my stuff.
Overrated golf courses because they're over maintained. Do you really have to clip every little tree with with pruning shears? Do you really have to edge your your bunkers every week? Well? Yes, I know. The expectations of golf courses are that if they are kept, they are well uh maintained, and superintendents unduly have to do these things because people are mistakenly driven by the look of the golf course. If it's pretty, if it's kept, it must be in good condition, it
must be healthy. But sometimes I think that's overrated.
Yeah, I agree, and I think like, especially when you get to like a municipal level, the strive for great green conditions, it hinders. What happens is that that goal then loses, especially with Golden Age design, like they lose the fairway lines or the green sizes because they're trying to get fast greens with limited resources.
Limited resources making the over maintain golf courses so overrated.
We aren't going to have much debate because we think about things the same way. But no, Jim, thanks for coming on and we'll have to do pleasure do another one at some point and in the future, and really really excited to see more of your work and congress to on all the success.
Thank you. I appreciate you having me on and allow me to ramble on sometimes of us.
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