I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in.
A bride egg, Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida Egg, Frida bride egg.
Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg Podcast. Today we will dive back into the architecture world and we are joined by Jeff Minge. Jeff is an architect based out of Canada. He's done extensive work in the Pacific Northwest and also in Vancouver as well as he's starting to do some in Minneapolis.
He got to start with Rod.
Whitman, uh doing some work with three of the you know, kind of most prolific new courses in Canada, Sagebrush, Cabot Links and black Hawk.
And welcome on, Jeff.
Oh, thanks for having me, and he appreciate the interest.
Yeah, we're we're excited to learn a little bit about you and kind of your work.
And and and.
All the all the things you know that we don't know, all right, So why don't you, why don't you give us a little background on yourself and and how you got into architecture.
Yeah, I was fortunate to grow up playing golf at Essex Golf and Country Club in Windsor, Ontario, which is just across the river from Detroit. Essex was, uh it's a Donald Ross course from nineteen twenty nine. Yeah, So as a kid, I mean I just took a unbelievable interest in the golf course. You know, my my brother
and I joke around occasionally. You know, he was able to focus on the ball and the hole, became a real good player, and I kind of hit shots and then looked around and thought, Man, how'd they build that bunker, how'd they build that green? You know, why is the golf course laid out this way? I just it was just something in me that that, you know, an instinctual interest in that sort of thing as I looked at
the course. But then I was lucky too, because my dad is an avid book collector, and I used to go to his office and look through his bookshelf. And it still amazes me that, you know, we're talking back in the late eighties when I was a teenager. You know, my dad had all the books, he had golf Architecture by McKenzie. You know, he had Scotland's Gift by CB McDonald,
all those classic books. So on top of taking an interest in Essex, I had all this literature and all these resources that my dad had, and I started reading all those books, which was fun and educational, and so I started, you know, I'm sixteen, seventeen years old. I started writing letters to architects saying, you know, I want to do this. It's a it's a found out, it's a real job, and you can do it. And I consistently got the same advice from guys I admired, you know,
a young Tom Doak answered my letters. Pete Die Bill Cooor. You know this is again back in the late eighties or early nineties, and I kept hearing that, you know, if you want to be a good, a good golf course architect, you got to really learn how to build on the construction of things. You know, anyone could come up with theories, philosophies, but if you don't know how to actually implement that stuff on the ground, you know, you're not going to
be as good as you could be. So long story short, I subsequent we found out that there was this Canadian guy named Rod Whitman, who had worked for Corn Crenshaw, worked for Pete Dye. You know, he worked in a way design build method. So I just pastored Rod for I can't even remember how long, and he finally called me up and said, all right, if you want to work,
I'm doing something at Edmonton. Show up you know, whatever date it was, and I jumped on a plane, immediately lied to him, and I knew how to run a bulldozer and ended up working for him for ten years.
So what was it? What was it like when you know, he said get on the dozer?
Like?
What was the first experience?
That's a funny story. I'm glad you asked it because I actually just told this story the other night. When I was in Minneapolis. I showed up on site and we were the tenth hole at this golf course was going to play up and over a hill. So the objective was to cut the hill down a little bit
to reduced the severity of it up and over tea shot. So, first first day on site with Rod, he says to me, you've run a bulldozer, right, And I said yes, And he said, uh, okay, Well what you need to do is cut that hill down, Here's where the tenth tee is going to be, here's the here's the line of the tea shot. Cut the hill down, take the cut material down to the tees, and flatten off. Flatten off a teeing area. I said, okay, So he leaves and I get in the bulldozer. No clue even had to
start it, run it nothing. I finally found that, finally found the key, started it up, started messing around. Rod came back, I don't know a couple hours later, and he looked at what I'd done, and his first response was, you've never run a bulldozer before, have you? And I said, uh, yeah, you caught me, but uh but we hit it off, and he gave me an unbelievable opportunity to to just jump into it, you know, literally jump into the fire.
Get on that bulldozer, get on that excavator, get on that track here, get on that sand rake, you know, and finish the green and you know, it's just just I mean, it's the it's the foundation of everything I do now and Tholip Golf forever would be grateful to him for putting me in that position without any rogers. Roger an easygoing guy. That's what's so great about him and he he just you know, gave me a remarkable opportunity.
It's interesting. So do you think there's any you know, I think you know from Keith Rabbit talked about Bill Corr being pretty easy going and laid back.
Do you think is there you know, is are there common traits.
That you see with with some of the great architects that you've you know, been able to meet, and do you think there's any common traits that is.
Certainly one of the traits of guys that that that I really admire, you know, Rod, Bill, Tom doak Uh, Gil hansh you know that that whole vein of guys and it all, you know, I often think it kind of all stems back to Pete Dye, you know, who who was easy going to You know, if you get a passion for architecture and you want to work, let's go to work. You know, it's not about landscape architecture degrees and you know, the certifications and all this stuff.
I mean, he's just got to get out there in the field and work, and the best work comes from a sincere passion for architecture. You know. I mean Rod always said on our jobs, you know, we'd have a guy. We'd have a guy come to us like you know, offence to anyone, but we'd have a guy come to us and say, Okay, I just spent the last six years working for Nicholas or working for Palmer, or working for this guy, work for that guy. I've been shaping
for twenty five years. Rod would put that resume aside and take the kid who'd never like me like I was, who'd never been on a project before and just had a passion for golf architecture. You know, there's a difference between having a sincere passion for golf architecture and simply knowing how to shape golf courses. Yeah, you know, and I think I think he died recognized that a long time ago. You know, Rod, I mean, you know, he rot had no experience really when he went to work
for Pete Austin country clubs in the early eighties. You know Bill Koor, I mean his background is in like Greek philosophy or something you know, from college. And Rod too, he's got a he's got something like a philosophy degree. I studied political science, you know, But we all, we all came into the thing with passion, and you know, there's a lot to be said about that. But back to your question, you have to take an easy going attitude to bring to bring people like that into the mix,
you know. And again, all those guys I named are just kind of like, you know, don't sweat it. I mean, we're gonna go out there and we're gonna work hard and and uh and get it done with passion. And I think that's what you're seeing in a lot of architecture these days. You know, you're seeing a lot more a lot more passion than you are seeing just business, you know, like guys running a business and building courses
and moving on to an XT course. Who're seeing people who really who really care and are really delving into it and are really trying to be craftsmen, you know, with with their work. So it's it's a it's a neat era, you know, it's a neat air to be involved in. Even though there's not a lot of golf courses being built comparatively, there's certainly a lot of quality work being done, which is which is really cool.
I think, Yeah, I'm interested.
You know, you're a part of this design build movement, and it seems like it's a it's a pretty it's getting to be more of an even spit split, you know, like this the design build philosophy.
Obviously, you know, you spend a lot more time on site. Do you think that.
Gives you obviously an inherent advantage when you're go Yeah, so, I mean you learn a lot of the nuances right, well exactly.
I mean I'm lucky that when I explain to my clients right out of the gate that you know, plans are entirely conceptual, because, as you just said, when when you're permitted to spend time on site, things change, you know, you things change as you're shaping, things change as you continue to study the situation and tweak the design. And so to charge clients, you know, an incredible amount of money to sit in Toronto and design a golf course in Seattle is both a waste of time and a
waste of money. You know, I would rather have my clients spend spend money on me being on site, paying attention to details as things get built, and then also participating in the shaping as well. You know, that's money
well spent. And you know, again, usually that's part of my you know, part of my my speel when I when I come to a potential client or a new client and explain to them that that they're going to get the best best results out of that method, Uh, simply because you know, you you got to pay attention. It's like Ben Crenshaw said, you know what's the most
important thing in golf architecture, and it's time. You know, you need time to be out there, time to build, time to look, time to tweak, you know, and and all those sorts of things. And the more time you have without wasting time or taking too much time, you know you're gonna end up with a with with the best result possible.
I mean, I know you write a good amount, and I think it's a lot like writing is like when you have the time to really write something and you and you keep working on you know things that they always turn out better.
Absolutely, And that's that's a perfect analogy, it really is. But then you just have to find you have to find that balance, right because you know, if you think of an author who just wants to continually refine, refine, refine, you'll never get the book published. So you know, there's a there's a there's a final line of when the thinking in the in the tweaking and that changing, you know, stops have to stop. It reminds me of a funny story Dick Young's cap, who was who's the developer of
sand Hills. He developed a golf course that Rod actually worked on with Pete Dye at Firethorn in Lincoln, Nebraska. And we were sitting down at dinner one time with Dick Young's cap, and he told the story of Pete Die showing up at Firethorn during construction, and every time Pete showed up, he wanted to think more, he wanted to tweak more, and they were getting close to the finish line, and Dick Young's cap, who's got a great personality,
you know, he finally said, that's it, you're done. We're graphic, there's no more changes. Otherwise he felt they were never going to finish the golf course. Yeah, so, you know, so again there's a there's a bit of a talent in realizing that, Okay, we've done all we can. That's done, because I think, you know, with our artistic minds, I think we'd never be done if we didn't have to be done.
Right, So you've touched on Pete Die a couple of times, and you know we're the tours at a Die course now and then obviously the players is coming up, and we had the heritage at Harbortown. If you were going to say, you know, what's the one thing that you would take away from Pete Die as an architect that you know really kind of like that you admire the most, what would it be.
Well, I would say the guts and the strength to be bold with your work. You know, the I deal with a lot of client clubs and I just find golfers and I say this to my committees and memberships that I work with. Golfers are soft these days. You know, they want the golf course to cater to them. You know, you do something bold, whether it be a deep bunker or a big contour or a green or or something, and they're they're most of them are upset all the time.
You know, they don't want golf to be golf. And you know Pete you know, we all know he actually gets some bad rap. I think because you know he got he got this reputation. At all he did was build hard golf courses. I don't believe that to be true at all. I find a lot of his golf courses to be really fun. But there's always bold features out there, you know, that that excite you to play. And I just get this sense all the time when I'm working at clubs and people want to tone it
down because they don't want to. I mean, it sounds simplistic, but I often say they don't want to play golf. I mean when you go up, when you go to Scotland, you go to Ireland, you know, you you see stuff that is like bold and hard, and you know, I got I talked to the pet one time at the uh I think it was two thousand and eight PGA Championship at Oakland Hills. I just happened to run into him and we're talking about things, and you know, he said,
let me tell you something. I was all excited. He asked, you know, why do you think people play golf? And I thought I was going to get some philosophical answer, and he said, simply because it's hard. Yeah, you know, part part of the reason you play is because you always think you could do better next time, you know, And you know, and again I really give him a lot of credit I think he built his reputation on
not being afraid to be bold. And that doesn't mean make every hole bold or every course bold, but you need you need some stuff that's going to excite people, want people to come back to play, and it's thrill come back to try and yeah, thrills and try to try to conquer some things that are that are seemingly difficult, you know, or are difficult.
That's why I think so you hit the nail on the head with golf in general, Like, you know, the thing that keeps you, it keeps everybody coming back, is the fact that it's like untacraable, you know, you never you know, I've played some of the best rounds of my life and i walk off the course and I'm like shaking my head because I'm like, dang, I three pointed from twelve feet and you know, it could have
been could have been even better. And that's like the beauty of golf is that there's you're never fully satisfied.
Exactly, and it's it's it's challenging these days, you know, I mean, especially for a guy like me. You know, I'm I'm still in the midst of building my career. I'm not a dog or a core or even a Hants or anything like that yet. But you know, when you're working at a club and you see an opportunity to do something bold, you know, your first thought is, okay, how you know, how is this going to be received? You know, am I going to be? Am I going to get fired here? Because I want to do something
that's got some real character. But you know, and I follow through because I do think of guys like like Pete Dye and and other architecture. But you need those type of features, you need those types of holes out there. But it is it's you know, it's it's a you're always thinking about the potential threat when you're when you're about to build something that you know is going to be controversial. But as you know, I mean, all the great holes in the world are are polarizing. You know,
you either love them or hate them. If they were if they just shot in the middle, maybe no.
Good, right, Yep, It's uh, it's it's very true.
I mean, like Mackenzie thought Cyprus Point was going to be just maligned, but you know, because of how bold he went, and then you know, the natural beauty kind of over overshadowed everything.
But i'd be interesting.
You know, you you've talked a lot about, you know, dealing with memberships, and I know you've you've done a lot of you know, restorations and renovations of clubs. Like what would you say, you know, would be like the one thing you wish every membership committee would do, like, you know, having the experience, Like, what's the one thing that like really great membership committees do.
Well? You know, it's kind of like it's kind of like Alistair McKenzie. I think it was Alistair mckennee years ago said that the best number for a committee, the makeup of a committee is an even numbered less than three, right, which is which is one? And it makes me think of an experience I had at the Derrek Club. You know, we in Edmonton, Alberta. We completely rebuilt an existing golf course. It's it's basically a new golf course. And they did a very nice job of allowing us to deal with
a two person committee. We you know, they they our plans were vetted through Green Committee, long Range Planning Committee, Board of Directors, but once we got the thing through the membership, through the club, we simply dealt with two board members on construction schedule and financing in budget issues. Right, So we avoided what is most typical where you know, you've got twelve people in a room, you can't cut,
you know, you can't come to consensus. I mean, golfers, golf architecture is very, very subjective, as you know too. Everybody has different opinions and that's fine, it's wonderful. That's one of the reasons we have such a great variance of golf courses, you know, and variety is so important
to golf. But when it gets down to it and you've and you've hired an expert architect, and you've hired you know, you've got an expert super golf course superintendent, expert shapers, contractor, I mean, you got to let them go to work, can't. You can't have twelve people and they're putting giving their opinions on every tee, every bunker, every green. I mean, it's it's like spinning your tires and mud, you know, when you're dealing with that situation.
So I think I think the Derrek Club, even though it's a difficult thing to do politically, the Derek Club provides an excellent example of how to just let the people that you've hired go to work and not not not have interference with too many design opinions getting thrown thrown in there.
Yeah. I think the other aspect of it is, you know, most members of private clubs are very very successful in their trade, you know, and they aren't used to being you know, not the boss exactly.
But the other problem too, like I said earlier, is that is that you know, I always use this example. You know, Jack Nicholas won eighteen professional majors and two US Amateurs because he was able to tailor his game to varying courses, right He when he knew when he was at Saint Andrews he had to play different than he did when he was at Augusta, and he had to play different when he was at Pebble Beach than he did then he played at Augusta, you know, et cetera,
et cetera. That's why he was such a successful champion. The problem with so many club golfers is they want the exact opposite to happen. They want the golf course designed and set up to cater to them. And I'm constantly confused by that because as we talked about just a minute ago, I mean, the attraction to the game is the challenge. But so many golfers they run from the challenge and they just complain about the condition of the bunkers or the or where the teas were set up,
but where the hole was cut. You know, we all hear that all the time, and it's just such a it's such an ironic thing, you know, when I can be a little sarcastic sometimes and I ask people, again, did you really want to play golf? Or what kind of game are you trying to try to create here that's actually not golf? You know?
Well, I mean a perfect example is where I play in Chicago. I started playing there a couple of years ago, and I've I've always been a player that hit a right to left t shot, and this golf course, like you know, it had some shots where you had to move.
The ball left to right.
And over the over the years I've become so much more well rounded of a golfer because I've learned and been forced to learn how to hit the ball left to right. And you know example, and it's just it, that's the way people need to look at these things.
Is looking at it and saying like, you know, like if I play a course that really tests certain aspects of my game, you know, I you know, while still being fair, like you know, I think that, and I'm you know, like not having nowhere to bail out nowhere like but like where you have this test, like it's only going to.
Make you better, right, And I think that's why you know, Pete Die has gone to bad rap? Is it he was? You know Sawgrass you just mentioned the Players Championship. I mean Sawgrass is so cool because it's like overkill of presenting you with varying challenges, you know, if you if you actually look, I used to. I learned so much Plan TPC, Sawgrass and the old Sega of you know video games system years ago, right because they show you
the overview of the whole. And when you when you know a little bit about architecture, you could see that so many of the holes and so many angles are set up, you know, for cut off the tee and then draw into the green, you know. And with the eighties when the golf course opened, with the eighties clubs and balls, you know, those those types of shots meant something. And I think why a lot of those pros back.
And I'm just being speculative, but my my suspicion is that most of those pros out there when when when Pete did put those that you know, precise challenge out there and they couldn't hit the shot that was required, it just burned him up, you know. And and Pete always talked about you get into those guys heads, that's when you really got them right. Yeah, and you know when he was asking him the dude, you know, shape it this way, shape it that way, hit it low,
hit it high. You know. It's just it's such a smart design. I mean, I still can't believe he took a swamp and ended up with with that. I mean, it's it's arguably, I mean, I don't want to I don't want to overstate this, but I think Sawgrass is
arguably one of the greatest achievements in golf architecture. You know, to be first of all, to facilitate golf in what was really a swamp, and then to come up with so many holes that are just you know, fascinating from you know the look of the holes, the strategy behind the holes. I mean, I just got tons of respect for mister Due and that golf course. And I know I've kind of argued with a lot of people who feel differently about it, but that's my opinion.
Yeah, I mean it also the one of the things that does so well is it doesn't really favor a specific type of player. You know that you see a great variety in the leaderboard and winners there year in year out, because because you I think that's what he does so well is that he always you know, there
are always angles and ideal angles. The ideal angles usually come with a little bit of risk, and then you know, and then he asked you to hit south and it's you know, it's very clear, you know what you need to do, and if you pull it off, you usually have a great look at Bertie or Eagle, and if you don't, you're going to be you know, and you don't miss it in the right spot, you're going to be in a world hurt, right, And.
The sad part about that, I mean, I love the way you just described that, but the sad part about that is the way club of ball technology is now It's taken so much away from from exactly what you just described, because the ball is just being hit you know,
super high, ye monstrously high and monstrously long. No spin, you know, no spin, you know, so all that shapen and high low stuff is gone, and it's just it's it's pretty sad, actually, you know when you think about how fascinating the game was even twenty thirty years ago.
Yeah, I think about it.
I had Aaron Oberholzer on and he talked about the first time he hit a pro V one. You know, he was a pro golfer at the time, and he was like, holy cow, this is.
So much different.
And how I mean you look at hey, I think it's the pro V one's obviously been the one that's kind of really changed the game because when it as soon as it shifted from professional nineties to those that I mean, the spin just year over year has gotten less and less, and ball goes further and straighter and skills diminished.
Yeah, and it just it just boggles my mind that anyone would think that that's a good thing for the game. I just I don't understand it. But you know, I don't know if you've read it yet, but I just finished. I'm friends with Morten Rudstein, who's been a long time friend of mine. I was fascinated that he just wrote that book with Tiger Woods celebrating the ninety seven Masters, and so I was, I was slipping through the book.
It's a great book, actually, and the best part about it for me is Tiger talking about Augusta and he he just frankly says that the nineteen ninety seven golf course is not even close to the same golf course they play today when we saw it, when we see it on TV. I mean, we watched the ninety seven Masters, we watched this year's Masters. It looks the same to us.
But the details that he describes in terms of how different not only how different the playing equipment is, but what they've done to the golf course because of the playing equipment, is just fascinating. It's really kind of a you know, it's an architectural read in a lot of ways.
And you know, obviously we all know they lengthen the course, they planted trees, they introduce rough but Tiger's comments on how much they've changed the green surfaces and the green surrounds is interesting because the golf course has gotten so much longer. They've apparently flattened out a lot of the pin positions, and he says the greens have actually gotten a lot less interesting and a lot more subtle over the years in the pinnable areas, which which has really
made the golf course less interesting. He said, it was way more interesting when it was shorter and the greens were a little bit more severe like they were originally, rather than just playing a big long golf course with with with more flat areas on the greens.
It's it's interesting, and that book is one that's on my list of of to do's, but it's it boggles my mind how anybody how this theory of tiger proofing came about that Like, Okay, we've got this guy that's come on tour and he hits it so far, Like what we need to do to level the field is to make golf courses longer, Like what like that makes no sense whatsoever.
He admits that in the book too. He says all they did was play right into his hands because he could he could take advantage of his strength, even more so the longer the golf course.
Yeah, all you did was just remove And now we live in this.
Era where all the golf courses are built for power players and sure enough, power players dominate.
The game, right, There's no you don't see any Corey Pavens around anymore, which which really sucks too. I mean, I remember following Corey Paven at that that two thousand and eight PGA championship, and I'll tell you what, you
you want to watch a fun golfer. You know, Corey's out there hitting cuts and draws and low high with long clubs into those greens because you know, obviously Oakland Hills was playing really long and I kept thinking to myself, you know what if we could watch the good players do this, Watch Tiger hit a four iron into a par four and either cut it or faded or hit
it low. You know. But you then, you know, you'd leave Corey Paven at that t thousand and eight PGA and go over to the guys on the leader board. They hit the drivers. You can't even see the ball, they hit it so high and so far. And then they're down there in wedge territory and they in another high one and plunk it on the green. I mean, that's fun to watch. I'd rather watch Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson slinging it around, you know.
Yeah, But That's what I always say to people is like, you know, people are like, oh, I'd love to see you know, DJ Rory and you know Jason Day in the same group, and it's like, well, they're all the same player. It's just like with It's just like golf course design. What makes a great variety, Like, you know, I'd like to see a guy like, you know, I'd like to see a group.
That has you know, one of the bombers in it.
Then you throw in like a Kevin Kissner that's like kind of an all around guy, and you throw in another guy that that's a shorter hitter that that gets it done a completely different way. That that is interesting to watch because you see how these different styles of play like how they all get it done.
And it's fascinating.
You know. One of the if people are interested in this topic, I mean, one of the great rounds of ball striking, shot making. I think one of the last great rounds was Nick Faldo in the nineteen ninety six Masters. I'll never forget. I don't know if you remember or not his shot that he hit from thirteen fairway into the green. He was on a hook lie, you know, severe right to left lie. But he needed to cut the ball into that green with a back right pin. Ye.
And I've watched it a million times. He had Fanny Suison on the bag and they were debating and he had it. He had a I can't remember what clubs he was debating, but he was pulling one club and talking and ended up pulling another club and he just set up over that thing and hit that a bullet cut. And they had the camera perfectly behind him, so you see the trajectory of the ball and he hit this
beautiful cut off this hook lie. Just like, man, if you're a golf fan and our architecture fan, you're like, that's that's what you live for, right, that's what you want to see, and you just don't see it anymore.
Yeah, it's that's I mean, that's the subtle, subtle ways of architecture to really challenge people is give people that, you know, I think William Flynn was one of the first that did it, was give you know, call for a right to left shot and give them a left to right lie. And you know it's, uh, the that's a I think that's you know what intrigue.
I think that's what's so cool.
About golf course architecture is all like the little subtleties that that you guys can do, that can you know, really give great players fits. So i'd love you know, I know, you know, we've gone on a tangent here of professional golf, which isn't the worst thing.
But we let's get back and let's talk.
A little bit about your work up in the Pacific Northwest. I think you've you've done a lot of work at courses.
Designed by A. V.
McCann, which you know, having done you know, a lot of research, it seems to be one of the more underappreciated architects of the Golden Age era.
Yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm you know, I back, Oh Jesus must have been. In the late nineties, I visited Vancouver, and you know, I'm always making lists if I'm in a particular city, what courses do I need to see in those cities? So I started making a list, and I'm a kid from the East obviously, so I hadn't spent a lot of time out west at that point. I need to see Shaughnessy, I need to see Mariene Drive, I need to see the Victoria Golf Club, I need
to see Roke Colewood. I need to see Capillano. Obviously Capillana is the Stanley Thompson course, and then all of a sudden, all the other ones it was Av McCann. Av McCann. I'm like, who is this guy? You know? So I subsequently tracked down a guy named Mike Rist He's from Vancouver, who had done some remarkable research on McCann's life. He immigrated from Ireland, born and raised in Dublin, came over to Canada and about nineteen twelve I think it was, and he was back before he came over.
He was in the loop with all the big names. He was a great amateur golfer, so he played he'd played amateur championships around the British Isles, and he knew all the guys, you know, John Lowe and all the guys of the time who were getting into you know, kind of this Renaissance movement golf, that golf architecture, especially at the time. So when he got to British Columbia there wasn't much golf around. He had the opportunity to lay out what is now Royal Cowood in Victoria, where
he lived. He tweaked the Victoria Golf Club where I work now, and he based himself out of there too, is his all His letterhead was Victoria Golf Club. But anyway, from those two golf courses, he subsequently laid out courses in Seattle, Portland all the way down to San Francisco. He actually the original designer of the California Golf Club before Mackenzie and Hunter came in and bunkered it. But he did. He worked from nineteen thirteen until he died
in nineteen sixty four. The problem was is that by almost by the end of World War Two, most of his original designs had really deteriorated. You know, I've found that out in the research I've done in the putting together the restoration master plans for his courses. You know, I'll run into guys, you know, I'll pitch the restoration of a particular bunker or whatnot, and I'll run into a member who says, you know, I've been a member here for fifty years, I don't remember that bunker ever
being there. And that kind of supports my theory that, you know, especially in the Northwest, when the when the second you know, come out of the depression into the Second World War. I mean, there were all the young guys who would have been on the maintenance crews and whatnot were over fighting the war. Nobody was spending money on golf courses because of the war and because of the depressed. So things started to disappear, you know, bunkers
went away and courses changed a lot. People had really forgotten about McCann's prowess and his talents. I mean during the nineteen twenties and thirties, if you look at historic photos and McCann courses, I mean, they stack right up with anywhere else, you know, whether it be Ross tilling has, you know, in all the greats who were working in
America at the time as his contemporary. But again, you know, the work deteriorated, and by the end of the Second World War, no one, no one remembered who a Av McCann was, or what is what his original golf courses were like. And again, the more I delved into his life and his work, he was he was. He was on part with all all the greats in the twenties
and thirties. So it's been it's been a real privilege to have an opportunity to kind of dig all this stuff out of the archives and kind of bring some attention to to, uh, to McCann's legacy.
I mean, a lot of your job is being an educator.
It seems like, you know, it's uh, it's interesting. I imagine that the Northwest has its own it's constraints, you know, especially with with trees and everything, more so than almost every other any other part of the country.
Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I mean not not only not only are there you know, obviously beautiful trees in the Northwest because of the climate. You know, you get those big, beautiful Douglas furs, and really the Northwest is filled with the types of trees you really don't want to see on a golf course. Most often ye big, big, big evergreens to cause shade and problems. Well that's what I was just going to say. You know. The biggest thing that I've had to fight is that sa Holly
has long And I've got nothing against Sally. I actually never played there, to be honest with you, but I've visited the place and the biggest problem is it's sholly because of it of its history of hosting championship golf it's kind of held. It's kind of become the standard in the Pacific Northwest. So every time as an architect and working with the superintendents I work with, when we propose some tree removal, you know, we're always fighting the well,
holly's a holly, does it? You know? There's a tree in the middle of the fairway, it's a holly. The greens are surrounded by trees, it's a holly. How come they can grow grafts, you know, So we're always we're always fighting that supposed standard of Sahlly being a course that's heavily treed, where trees come into play, where trees shade greens, and they don't do anything about it. So I think that's a holly standard has been a real
issue for us. But we're overcoming it, as you said, as we dig out all these historical photos and dig out some of McCann's writings, and now people in the Northwest are starting to pay attention to what's been done, you know. As you probably know too, it seems like golf trends moved east to west in North America. So Seattle's obviously going to be, you know, one of the last places where the wave of any kind of movement
gets to in golf. So but people are starting to become more conscious of the benefits of tree removal and the benefits of being able to see across these golf courses and appreciate the train and appreciate long views, appreciate more room to play, appreciate strategies you know, when you widen corridors. So you're absolutely right, it is a it's a it's a learning process, and a large part of my job is actually being an educator. But I enjoyed
I've always enjoyed history. As I said, I studied political science and history and I've always kind of been historically minded. So it's fun to, you know, again, dig out the materials and put together the writings and give the presentations. And yeah, we made some good progress in the Northwest, So it's fun.
I think.
I think trees make golf easier for good players and harder for bad players.
I agree. You get you get a fair away, that's that's lined. I know you're a good player. Andy, you know you get tree line, tree line right, tree line left. You can focus on that target, you know, and and you guys who are good like that focus.
There's nowhere you have to think about hitting it.
And as you know, the other people, I mean, how many fairways do they miss every round? A lot? So when you're in a tight tree line golf course, you're exactly right, easy for the good player and a lot more difficult for the higher handicap, which is the exact opposite of what the ideal and golf course architecture is. Right, you want to golf, You want a golf course to challenge the best players and at the same time allow
everyone else to have fun. And you know, and I used that argument a lot too, because Av McCann preached that forever. One of the most fascinating things I've read about from him actually is later in his life a kid wrote him a letter. I think it was in the He died in sixty four, so I think it was in the fifties or early they had late fifties. No, I'm sorry, early fifties, because they were in the letter they were talking about the nineteen fifty one US Open
at Oakland Hills. You know, when Robert Trent Jones narrowed the course, you know, bunkerd the hell out of it, and Ben Hogan won and said he conquered the monster. You know, it was the first time that you know, just making a golf course super hard, got a lot of publicity and a lot of attention, and McCann was totally against that. And the kid asked him, you know, I want to go into golf architecture. You know, what do I need to learn? And he said, well, don't
pay attention to Oakland Hills. All you need to do is read the two chapters and Bobby Jones's autobiography about the development of Augusta Nashville. You know, he thought that they achieved the ideal in terms of creating a course that challenged the best and catered to the enjoyment of everyone else along the line with Saint Andrews, and you know, it opened up with twenty two bunkers in nineteen thirty two. They had big, wide fairways, but they could play the
masters there, you know. And that's a neat piece of advice. I always go back to that McCann quote about who would think that Bobby Jones's autobiography is an architecture book, but it is those two chapters.
It's ironic that you that that same person that kind of did that to Oakland Hills did the exact same thing to Bobby Jones's AUGUSTA.
Yeah, it is interesting. It's also interesting that Bobby Jones was working with him when he started, you know, change in sixteen and eleven and yeah, it's boy, if you could bring Jones back and talk to him while working with McKenzie and then Trent Jones on that golf course, boy, would that be something to listen to. Yeah.
Yeah, I read something about this year that golf WRX did an article with Robert Trent Jones Junior and he was talking about it, and you know, it just had me shaking my head the whole time, you know, talking about how you know they needed to remove bunkers or add bunkers and add water hazards and all this stuff, and it's like, God, you just don't get it. It's it's interesting, Like I think, like the runoff areas that you see are so becoming so popular now and golf
like is a perfect example. For like the regular player, that fifteen handicap so easy, You grab a putter.
And you put it, you know, But then for the for the.
Better player, you look at it and you were like, what do I do here? You know, and you're like, do I hit a hit a sixty degree? Do I hit use like a gap wedge and hit a low checker? Do I bump it? Do I use a putter?
Like?
And all that question puts doubt.
Into your head and you and that's when you win as an architect against a good players, when you make them think and exactly and but for the for the regular player they and but like when you think about it, it's contradictory, like, oh, these runoff areas are easier, but in actuality they're harder for the good player.
Exactly. I agree one hundred percent. I mean, I love I love short crafts for the for the reasons you said it's it's it fits into the equation of creating the ideal and architecture right as you just said, the higher handicap they can knock it out of the green with the putter probably you know, maybe not close to the hole, but at least they're keeping the ball moving they're on the green. And then the shot options, the
tight lies present the challenge for for better golfers. But I lately I've been playing the devil's advocate on that one. I mean, again, I love short grass, but you know it's it's architecture in all forms of art, really, but you know, there's always trends in architecture, and I think I think sometimes the short grass areas kind of are starting to get a little bit out of control, to be honest with you, you know, everywhere because I run into it with members too. Everywhere there's a fall off
off the side of the green. You know, there's always a suggestion about putting short grass down there, and as I said, I'm not opposed to it. But at the same time, I mentioned this earlier. At the same time, I think variety is most important. You know, you want to have holes where when you miss, sometimes you're a bunker. Sometimes you got that tight lie on the short grass
like you just mentioned, sometimes you're rough. I mean, it's still a golf shot, right, that should be part of the equation to be playing out of two or three inches of grass too. I mean, you just have to make sure that it's not happening every time you miss a fair way and every time you misagree, that's when the golf course gets monotonous. So I think we need to use all of those hazards, you know, and kind of sprinkle them around equitably so that you get all kinds of different shots.
Yeah, something I don't see a lot of that.
I kind of really like our grass bunkers.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting you don't see them a lot. I've got an article sitting in front of me right here, actually because i've been working on this McCann stuff and trying to do things minimize bunkers on golf courses. And there's an article that mackenzie wrote in the Alistair. Mackenzie wrote the American Golfer magazine in nineteen thirty three, and he was talking about how golf courses have too many bunkers and actually advocating the use of grass hollows. And
you're absolutely right. It's in all my travels you rarely see grassy hollows. Actually, Bee Die courses you see, you see a lot of grassy hollows. But it's an interesting thing that I put some thought into. I don't know if I particularly know how to effectively use them, but in lieu of bunkers, it's an interesting thing to think about, that's for sure.
I mean it's another example of like for compared to a bunker, for like your beginner a grass bunker is worlds easier, you know, right, and then for the better players it's world's harder.
And most importantly, it's less expensive to build and less expenses to maintain. Yeah, yeah, and that's what that's what mackenzie was advocating back in nineteen thirty three. And that's actually a fascinating thing to me right now, you know. I mean, I've I've had this dream of one day having an opportunity to build a build a bunker this golf course. I don't even know if it would fly, you know what, which owner open would let you do it?
And would golfers recognize that you could do something interesting and without any sand bunkers. You know. It's just it's something I'd love to give a shot to, you know, interesting greens, interesting contour in the fair ways, and figuring out a way to do it without any bunkers. You know. I'd love to take on that challenge someday.
It's well, like you know, like we've talked a lot about Augusta, but I think one of the most overlooked great holes out there is the fourteenth and it's bunker less, and.
I think it would be I think it would be very cool.
I was going to ask you about, you know, what kind of new architecture ideas or trends get you most excited and that kind of feel, you know, doing something bunkerless.
It could be cool that you could do it.
You could be as it could be less than eighteen holes too, you know it. You'd have to have a good piece of land, I imagine, though, right.
Yeah, exactly, I was just thinking the same thing.
I mean, a nice, rolling, sandy piece of ground with good contour would give you a lot more options than than, you know, than a less interesting piece of land, that's for sure. But I don't know, I've you know, it's going to sound like a sales pitch, but I mean I've always been kind of obsessed with with economy, you know, in efficiency.
You know, I would rather have someone go play one of my golf courses and say, geez, did you see what what what Minge did for a million dollars, rather than say, geez, did you see Minge spend fifty million dollars on there? And I don't even want to play there,
you know. So trying to figure out ways to be efficient and economic, you know, is a is a very interesting challenge to me, and obviously from a from a business standpoint, I mean, geez, that's what you should be providing your clients with, you know.
Well, it's lessons like especially at a public course, you know that all the costs just get passed the consumer, you know, And that's why we see two hundred and fifty dollars green speeds at a lot of these plays, Like why is why.
Does Whistling Straights cost four hundred dollars to play? Well?
They moved an insane amount of earth to build the golf course, right, and you know, like you you look at other places, like I think one of the things that I've been I'm fascinated at from like this kind of discussion is the Loop. You know, the Tom Doks recent course, and I know Dan Hickson is doing a reversible course that opens this year up in Oregon, but the idea of two golf courses in one.
Yeah, absolutely, I can't wait to get to the Loop. I tried to get there last summer and I just couldn't work out the schedule. But I'm hoping to get there this year because it is it is a fascinating concept, amazing. I actually looked at a piece of ground in British Columbia to redo it existing golf course that had this
similar potential. Unfortunately, the project did go ahead, but I pitched it to the the owner there, and you know, he was quite confused by the by the idea, you know, And I remember hearing Tom Doaks say that that he'd been considering that. He may he may have said this to you, and you talked to him recently. But you know, a lot of people wouldn't get that concept. You have to find the right owner who's willing to take on that, you know that. I guess it's just an oddity that
a lot of people wouldn't wouldn't quite get. So it's cool. That's cool that they gave Calm an opportunity to do that. I can't think about a better guy to give it a shot, to be honest with you, I'm sure it's great. Frank Pont actually a friend of mine who's based in Amsterdam over in Europe. He's working on two projects where he's he's going to be doing reversible courses over there
in the Netherlands. So I don't know, maybe it's going to become a bit of a trend, and I don't think it'd be a bad thing in spots that we can figure it out.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, you know, like especially for a resort, you know, like it gives somebody as to stay an extra day, you know, if you're trying to build destination golf. I think it would make a lot of sense for a members course too, because you get a lot you know variety.
Yeah. Absolutely, but again, well again we're fighting the North American mentality of I mean, you know, I see things like they don't want you know, members of golf clubs complain if you move the team markers back and or forth. You know, they always want to play that hole at one hundred and sixty seven yards. If you set up at one hundred and thirty seven, they walk up and say why they watch move the teas up. So we're constantly, you know, fighting to create that type of stuff when
people don't at variety. You know, again going back to the start of our conversation, they don't want to challenge, they don't want it to be different. It's it's it really, it's really mind boggling to be the way some golfers think.
Something I've started to do in non like stipulated rounds. Is I just play whatever tea box I want to play, you know, And I've just decided that, like, why do I have to play.
A specific te box on a specific day, Like, you know, if I.
Want to play a par five up and make it a completely different hole than what it is I play the majority of the time, why not if I don't want to hit it, you know, like if it's into the wind and I don't want to have to hit like a punch three wood on a par three, I'll
move up and hit a different shot, you know. It's like or if I want to move back, like I just I think that's one of the problems with the game is that we've become so it's become so focused on score and tease and handicap, and that's what needs to be let go because at the end of the day, it's just about having fun. It's like, like the most fun times I've had on a golf course is like when you just peg it, you know, and there are no te markers out there.
Yeah, you know, that's It just reminds me of another amazing content that hasn't been attempted again, and that's George Thomas's La South, you know Los Angeles Country cub South Course.
When Thomas designed it in the in the mid twenties, his concept was to create a course within a course, so that golf course and I know that Gil Hanson and Jeff shakov are recently stored a lot of those concepts, thankfully, but Thomas wanted you to go out there and basically create enough tea options and enough options to set the pins that you're basically every day you're out there, you're
playing a different golf course. The holes aren't even close to the same because of the options you have in terms of the way you set it up. And really that just derived from the old course, right, you know, the old course gives you a lot of room to flex. The distances of the holes and the greens are so big that you know, you can take the pins far right, far left, up front in the back then the wind
starts blowing. I mean, of course, is the epitome of course within a course, and it's it's a really neat concept that I think that needs to be resurrected when we have those opportunities.
Yeah.
Yeah, if there's all kinds of little things you can do so I'm curious. You know, we've talked a ton about kind of Golden Age architects. What if you were gonna, uh kind of create like your ideal architects using like, you know, the different different skills, like you know, routing bunkers of of you know, it could be current, it could be uh, Golden Age architects. How would you construct
the architect whether it be like routing, bunkering greens. You know, if we put it into like, you know, three or four categories, you.
Mean, who would be in charge of each category?
Yeah?
Oh, holy cow, that's uh, that might be one of the best questions I've ever been asked. Well, you know, I mean I go back to my childhood and it didn't take me very long to realize how great Donald Ross was at routing golf courses. You know, absolutely fantastic. Rarely do you see a Ross course where the routing has been changed because you can't really improve upon it.
So maybe I'd give Ross the routing. Well, I probably I probably sound like a lot of my a lot of my contemporaries here, but I might put Perry Maxwell in charge of the greens. You know, he's I mean, Perry Maxwell Green's. The best ones are just stuff the chart, good prairie dunes and whatnot. Cheef bunkers. I'm trying to say, you know, you know what I like about bunkering is
I like variety. I mean, I think on all my projects, I try to bring a different bunker style to each one because I think that, you know, obviously, the bunkers are one of the biggest visual aspects of any golf course. And Bill Koor and Ben Crenshaw in there, guys Jeff Bradley, Dave Axcellen, they've done such a good job resurrecting, you know, a great naturalistic Tom Simpson style of bunkering that I
think there's been too many copycats. I was going to say, I put Tom Simpson in charge of the bunkering, but you know, right now, I think we need to we need a kind of a renaissance and bunker style. We got to get away from that kind of blowout look and start looking at some different things. But that being said, I might put Coorn in charge of the bunkers, either him or Tom Simpson. So there you go, running greens bunkers.
Yeah, that's that's uh, that's a formidable three That's the thing I like.
About the core Crenshaw.
What they do is that the VERI and the and the bunkers, like we've talked about, it's like so many different shapes and sizes and different placements. Like they aren't afraid to just throw a bunker right in the middle of a fairway, Like I love that, and I hate when people like are afraid to do that right because that's right where you want to hit the ball.
That's what makes it interesting. I've often got that comment at the clubs I work out. We just restored a center fairway bunker off the tee at over Lake in Seattle, and we brought the committee out to to show them what we were up to. And one of the first comments I got and is why would you put a bunker there? That's right where I want to hit it? And my response was immediately to say, that's the point,
as you just suggested. You know now that now that there's a bunker right where you wanted to hit it, Okay, well now things are gonna get get get fun right. Can I carry it? Should I play short? Should I play left? Should I play right? You know now you've now you've Golf's an inherently physical game, as we know, and if you could bring a mental element into into the equation, you know, it's going to become more interesting if you take the right attitude to it.
It's uh, I think it was Mackenzie said, like the bunker, a hazard should always be on the intended line of play, right, and you know.
The most way to describe what I just said, You're right.
It's amazing how these those those old school architects had like a I think Riley was talking about it, and it they're how concisely they could describe things.
You know.
Yeah, that's a good point.
It's uh.
I think they were just a little bit more blunt and not afraid of what, you know, what they were saying.
You know, that could be part of it, no doubt.
So we got a ton of really great Twitter questions I wanted to get to and you're you're a big music fan, so uh KVOY wanted to know, you know, has how has music influenced your work on the golf course?
That's a that's a great question. I would say firstly that you know, most parts of my life are inspired by music. I tend to have headphones on all the time, I again take just take inspiration from all kinds of genres. You know, my tastes and music vary from you know, I'll be listening to the Doobie Brothers and I'll be listening to Public Enemy that i might be listening to a metal band you know that I'm interested in. So when I'm out on a golf course shaping, usually I
usually have my music going. And again, I just kind of feel, I feel good about things when I'm listening to what I want to listen to and I think artistically, it just becomes inspiring and puts me in the right frame of mind to be creative and and being being the right mood to do to do good work.
So yeah, you got to have the right mindset for anything, you.
Know, absolutely every aspect of life.
I feel like, So, uh, let's see, uh, you know, we're going to transition to a musical artist who had a question for you, Micah Iration wants to know template holes limiting or.
Are they a great starting point?
Geez, that's a good question too. I would never call them limiting because you know, the great template holes really really give us, you know, you know, they easy easily explain architectural concepts and philosophies that have stood the test of time and have worked and you know, make make golf holes and golf courses, you know, be what they be, what they should be. But on the other hand, I think we got to be careful that we're not just
going around copying. You know. Another thing that I've been kind of critical of is you know there's been a lot of talk of like the Lacy bunker edges. I mean, there's been a lot of DAN talk, you know, in architecture in recent years, you know, where everybody's always talking about using side slopes to help people kick balls onto greens, and hey, that's cool there. DAN is one of the most exciting Part three concepts there there is, and time
has proven that. But you know, we don't want to overkill anything, right, we go back to the word variety. So when when the when when the template concept presents itself in a certain piece of ground or a certain situation. I mean it's hard to ignore it because again, you know that those concepts work really well, But I think we got to be careful not to not to overdo it too. I think that makes sense.
No, No, I think that's I think I'm a huge Rainer McDonald fan. And you know, I've had the lucky opportunity to have played Short Acres, one of Rainer's best courses, you know, probably closer.
One hundred times.
And you know, you think about the golf course, and he uses a lot of great templates, but the best holes on the golf course are the non template holes because he was given this beautiful land and this unbelievably unique land and he and he created unique golf holes that.
Fit the land.
And I think that's where you can't allow the templates to you know, be in a box like you know, and but like if you were given a dead flat piece of land and you did all template holes, it probably turned out really good.
Yeah. Well, you know, Chicago is a good example of that, right, really good example of that. And I think, you know, maybe a Chicago aside. I think one of the reasons that McDonald Rainer templates worked so good is that they were so good at fitting those concepts to the existing terrain. Yeah, you know, they would find the table top ridge that tilted right to left like at the National you know Dan Green on it, or find a find a hill
to tuck the alp screen behind an existing hill. I'm not a constructed hill, so you know, I think when it comes across as being natural rather than forced as a preconceived idea or concept, I think it works a lot better. Although I do love Chicago Golf Club too.
Yeah, yeah, it's uh, I'm getting out there in in a couple of weeks, so I'm I'm excited about that.
You should be.
Yeah, I've locked it, but it's uh, it's a big bucket list one I'm getting.
Off the list. So so, you know, I know.
You've been spending a lot of time in Minneapolis, talk about a little bit about the GoF city Minneapolis.
I feel like it's a little bit under the.
Radar, I I would say so. I Yeah, I've been hanging around and working at Town and Country Club for the last year and a half working on a master plan, and Bill Larson, the superintendent the country Club, has been really He's given me an incredible tour of all most of the courses around Minneapolis Saint Paul, and I would go so far as to say that, you know, as far as the depth of great golf courses on the list of courses there, it's it's one of the deepest
lists I've ever seen. I mean, there are extraordinary courses in that city that no one's ever heard of. One of my favorite places there that many people probably haven't heard of his Somerset Country Club, which is in Saint Paul. And it's one of SETH. Rayner's first golf courses. I think it dates back to I think it's pre nineteen twenty, nineteen nineteen or so. Wonderful setting, wonderful clubhouse, great course, all the template holes in there. One of the craziest
dans I've ever seen is at Somerset Country Club. Yeah, and then you got I mean White Bear Yacht Club, which is up in White Bear, Minnesota, which is not today twenty thirty minute drives from Saint Paul. I would put White There Yacht Club maybe in my top five of course as I've ever played. Wow, that's how good. That's how good. It is just a wonderful piece of land in a wonderful setting, real lay a layout of land, golf course. And then you've got you know, you've got Minnicotta,
which has hosted a lot of championships. Interlocking there's a great old Donald Ross course near Lake Minatonka. I think it's called Woodhill. You know a lot of places like that that are kind of, as you said, under the radar, but just off the chart. Good Midland Hills, another Rainer course. I mean, I could keep going and going. It's what's a deep list of a really great golf.
Have you played Northwoods up in Duluth.
No, I haven't been there yet, but you know what every golfer I run into in Minneapolis St. Paul says to me, have you been up to Northland yet? It's a really excited uh tone in their voice. So I'm excited to get up there. Yeah.
They I've had so many people say tell.
Me I got to go play Northland, and it's so I gotta get up to Minneapolis one of these days.
Yeah, you want to make sure you go to Duluth in the summer though, Yeah, the middle of summer. I'm I'm there.
I'm Chicagoan, so you know it's not I don't have quite as cold, but I know what the constricted season.
And and what golf in May and June can be like even June can be just bad.
Yeah. Yeah, I think when I was up there last week and snow and of course of Northland, that's one of the reasons we didn't go.
Up that's uh this way up there, so uh, I apologize. I didn't get the name of who asked this.
But what's one piece of knowledge that you take away from working with Whitman on on the great projects that he's that you've been working with.
Him on.
That that's an easy question. I'll never forget. When I first started working with Rod and hanging around with and you know, I was kind of like the kid who had who had read all the architecture books, you know, and all I wanted to do was talk about theory and concepts and that sort of thing. And Rod said to me one time, you know, he said, hey, let
me tell you something. You know about ten percent of golf architecture is philosophizing and talking about concepts, and then the rest of the ninety percent is just hard work. And I've watched Rod work hard. You know, he's he's I won't reveal his age, but he's been in the business for a long time now. And you still see Rod on the bungozer, you still see him doing finished work. You still see him out, you know, out there in
the field working hard. And I'll never forget him saying that to me ten ten percent conceptual hard work, And I wrote down a quote he said one time that I still think is great. He said to me, you know the guys with dirt under their fingernails who have the best chance at building the best And you know, I think about that all the time in terms of being out there and getting my hands dirty and working hard. Yeah, it's I take away from this.
I imagine you don't lose perspective that way too. It's like a lot of things. You move up in professional life and and you forget what you know the job's really about, you know, and sometimes some of the cores of of of.
Your work exactly. And I've made myself a promise that the day that I don't want to get on a buldos or an excavator or go finish a green, I think I've lost lost the passion that I have. And you know, I doubt I will, But in the day if that ever happens, I think I'll stop working. You know, I'm sure. I'm sure Rod feels the same way.
Yeah.
So so we're and to the end, we got to do our Frida egg tradition here.
Of overrated underrated, So yeah, just easy, rapid fire questions they've you know, morphed into, you know, then they end up in debates. But but first up a Canadian tradition poutine.
Uh, well, it's underrated, of course, there's nothing better than poutine.
You know, it's not as popular in the States, but good poutine is good, good food.
You know. Well it's because you guys got to go to Montreal to eat it. Then you'll realize how good it is.
Okay, So if you're in Montreal, you got to get the poutine. I know my fiance is going there for a bachelorette party of one of our friends, so I'll tell her if she has to get poutine. Look at me, I've got a third eye.
Though, Cross bunkers.
Under rated, I think.
Okay, I agree, I think they're awesome. You know, I've been getting a lot of flak from my love of the Great Hazard. What would you say about the Great Hazard or Hell's.
I love it hells Acre seven at Fine Valley.
Right, Yeah, that's that's the.
Coolest ones I've ever seen, and I absolutely loved it is When I visited Ben Crenshaw's Austin golf club. That yeah, the ninth hole is a cool uphill long part five, and they have a great hazard in the middle of the fairway, you know, big mounds and big sandy areas. I was, I had my jaw at the ground that I saw it. I thought it was so cool. And what's neat about it is, you know, we philosophize about
lateral strategies on golf holes. You know, you know, if a pin's talk right behind a bunker, you want to drive left and vice versa. You know, we always talk about that. What I love about the great hazard is it actually it's a it's a it's a you know, a challenge of simply hitting a golf ball, you know, where you've got to drive it far enough that you
can get over that hazard. And if somehow or another you don't hit the proper drive, then the next shot, you know, again, you just need power and length to get to get over that hazard. It's it's just quirky in a good way. And I think also part of the challenge of golf, you know, I think I think they're you know, we complained about the golf ball going too far and whatnot. But I still think that part of the challenge should occasionally be long hitting, and I
think that Hazard does a good job. Was that.
I think that one of the things I love about it is it's like a really good way. Like you know most part five that you hit a bad drive and it's just oh, I just lay it up, you know, and like it's fine. You know, I'm just gonna lay it up to one hundred and twenty and I'll I'll have still have a good birdie chance, like the great hazard, Like if you don'thit a good drive, like you all of a sudden have like a mid to long iron into the green and.
You're like, oh shit, I need to make pars.
Right. And then that's the thing. That's the thing about designing par fives too, right, there's too many par fives I think, where it's the second shot that's completely boring, you know. So so whenever you whenever you get a par five where you actually have something to do on the second shot if you're not going for the green, I mean, those are the great three shot holes.
Yeah, I might, I might start a campaign more great hazards.
I'll try to find one for you, all right.
The doors, Oh well.
I wouldn't say either underrated or overrated. I think they're properly appreciated.
Now you got to pick one, I'll.
Go overrated then, all right, story guys.
Yeah, it's okay. Music on the golf course.
Overrated. As much as I'm a music fan, I don't particularly enjoy people around me playing.
Music, all right, that's uh. I was expecting the opposite. No, So all right, well, well, we really appreciate the time.
And you know it's a it's gonna this will probably be going up on Friday afternoon and over the weekend.
So you know, what's being a big music fan.
What's one band that we may never have heard of and the listeners have never heard of that.
We used to listen to this weekend.
Oh, what a great question. Lately I have been listening to a lot of Gojira, go Zerra, Yes, g O j I R A.
Hold on, I write it down. I'm gonna listen to it this afternoon.
They've got it. They've put on a new album a few months ago called Magma, and I've been pretty pretty obsessed with with that album. It's very very well done. O heavy heavy music, but it's very well done.
G O.
G O j I R A R Era goes zero. All Right, and I'll let you know a little secret goes Zira is what the Japanese called Godzillah and the bands in the bands from France, so there's a small world scenario for it.
This is actually there's like almost too much there for my head. Bay and can see American movie, Japanese word, French band.
Yes, and the album is one of those great ones that you can hit play on the first track and it is pretty entertaining right through the end. So sounds like I like. I like the album concept where it's where it's most fun to listen to it front to back rather than just picking individual tracks. So I think that this album kind of fits that fits that ideal.
For me, just like a great golf course.
Right, Hey, there you go, perfect?
All right, Well, Jeff, thanks so much, and I'll throw your Jeff's on Twitter. He I'll throw his profile link into the pod and give him a follow, and you know, any questions we didn't get to, I'm sure he'd be happy to interact and answer on on Twitter.
So thanks so much for coming on.
Hey, thanks Andy, I appreciate the interest. Enjoyed it all right, Bye bye,