I miss the green.
For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a frid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Friday Bride Egg.
Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the golf course.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. This morning, we're joined by golf course architect Jay Blasi. Jay was an integral part in the design of Chambers Bay under Robert Trent Jones Junior Design and uh now he's out on his own, recently completed a great project at Santa Ana Country Club and is a big part of the Sharp Park movement and restoration in San Francisco.
Jay, welcome on, Thanks so much.
Andy, I'm excited to join you.
Yeah, yeah, it'd be fun. Hey.
The thing I always like to start out with these conversations is I'm curious about how you got into golf and then how when did you kind of decide you want to be a golf course architect.
Yeah.
Well, for me, it started really early and kind of close to your heart. My dad grew up on the South Side.
Of Chicago and was a caddye at Beverly.
And so that's how he fell in love with the game. And he met my mom at the University of Wisconsin and they settled in Madison. And so when I was born, he brought plastic clubs to the hospital, and when he
was a teacher, and so he had summers off. On his summer's off, he worked on the Grountin's crew and he befriended the superintendent, who was an influential guy in Wisconsin from the superintendent side of things with Roe Miller, and so when they built their first house, he convinced the superintendent to come over and build a putting green in the backyard. So I was lucky enough to grow up I had a putting green in my backyard.
And then we moved when I was young, and we ended up with.
A putting green with two little bunkers. And then we moved again, and I then we moved out to the country and had seven acres, and then we had three putting greens in the yard or three little golf holes in the yard. So my interest in the game started, you know, literally when I was born, and all through my childhood and then my interest in architecture really started very young as well. When I was four or five, We'd go out to dinner and I'd flip the place
mat over and draw golf holes and cryan. And we'd take all sorts of family vacations, always driving vacations, and I just spend the whole trip in the back seat with my face plastered to the window, looking out at the fun fields and visioning golf holes and stuff. So the interest in that started started very young. And uh, and then was very fortunate that uh uh, And thank my parents again. They were really the ones who kind of gave them the push. When it was time to
go to college. I had figured out that most people in golf design had gotten a degree in open escape architecture and and and so I knew that and was passionate about designing golf courses, but for some reason didn't necessarily think of it as a viable career anything. And they were the ones who kind of kicked me in the butt and said, no, you actually have you got to go for this. If you're lucky enough to find a passion life, you got to you gotta do you
go into business. You know, at any time but chase your dreams or whatever. And so I went to the University of Wisconsin, got a degree in landscape architecture, and after school ended up with our teacher YouTube nice.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, getting to do what you love and had a passion force into your kid is probably like the most rewarding thing ever. I mean, you work, it doesn't feel like work, which has got to be so refreshing for you.
It is, And I think that would be one thing that I would you know, whether it's golf, architecture or anything else. I mean, I think, you know, as a as a country, as a as a society, would be far better served if we really encouraged all of our young people to find a passion and chase that. Because if you're passionate about something, you're going to be good at it, and you're going to put You're going to put in the extra time and effort, and you know,
everything is better. You know, when when somebody's passionate about something, the outcomes are always are always better. So U yeah, I feel fortunate. I pinch myself every day that I get to do this, and I wish more people had the opportunity to follow their dreams and chase their dreams.
Yeah, it's.
I imagine how long until you move out you're in San Francisco, you can't have a putting green in your back yard now, I bet, But like, how long you know when you're going to get your putting green, your own putting green.
That's a great question.
Yeah, there are no.
I don't have any putting green here in the Bay Area, that's for sure. I feel very fortunate to have a roof and four walls. That the cost of living out here. But I'm lucky enough that if if I hop in the car and go twenty minutes, I get to make use of the Stanford Practice facilities. So that's a pretty good putting green backyard situation for me.
Yeah, that's good.
So growing up, did you have to take care of the putting green? Did you learn some like agronomy from that? And like who who had to mow the green?
Well? I would mow it. My dad would know it. I have a younger brother, he would mow it. I probably was not as good or in tune with the maintenance side of things as I should have been when I was little. But interestingly enough, yeah, my dad had this really old cool mower that I think he had gotten somehow on some kind of auction or something and whatnot, and we'd know it, we'd mow it and whatnot. I
did get to lay out the first little court. You know, when I talk about the backyard putting green, this is nothing too fancy.
I mean, it's a.
Small, little residential lot. But we made up a eighteen whole course. You know, the longest shot was fifteen yards, but we made up a little eighteen whole course in the backyard. So that was probably my first layout, was laying out the eighteen old course, and then we made up a little scorecard and we'd always had little competitions in the backyard. It's a good way to grow up.
Yeah, it's funny. My buddy.
I had a really good buddy growing up that lived up the street and we both, you know.
We'd play golf like all summer long together.
But when we weren't at the course we were playing, we'd play front yard with football golf and like, thank God, you know, God bless our neighbors because we would we had all.
These different holes.
You know, the street was a water hazard, and we'd play across into people's yards and you know, the trees were the holes, and I mean it was so much fun. But you know it was you start to design kind of holes like, oh, this one's a dog like left like and you got a you know, the different tough features of it. You have to lay up sometimes if you couldn't carry the carry the street. So it was so fun when you're you know, I wish you could go back to that.
Almost.
Oh yeah, I've done the same thing and it's great fun. Yeah, what's better than that? Growing up like that as a kid. I had a really fun thing happened, you know, by
just by happenstance. My next door neighbor, who I a number of times as a as a six year old, was taking gibbots out of his yard, you know, And here I am, you know, twenty eight thirty years later, I'm working on Central World back up in northern Wisconsin, and it was time to kind of make a pitch to the board of directors at Centry Insurance who were
going to approve the project. And in walks my former next door neighbor, who now you know, he's ahead of a now he's he became the head of an energy company and he's on the board of directors and he looks and he lights up like a candle, and I look at him and he just puts his arm around me and he looks to the rest of the board.
He goes.
The last time I saw Jay Pozzi, he was hitting golf balls out of my backyard. Yeah, so it comes full circle.
Yeah, that's uh, it was, you know, thank god.
If any of my neighbors are listening, they got to you know, they they let me and my buddy just just hack divots out of their front yard all the time.
So so, uh, yeah, I gotta be honest.
I uh, I'm not a big the biggest Jones family fan. Uh, having played a lot of their courses, I I disagree with a lot of their principles. And I'm curious from you working on the inside, you know, tell us a little bit about what it's like to work for rt J two and and kind of how the whole design process works with a with a you know, one of the biggest architectural firms in the in the world.
Yeah. So I think you know, to touch on your comments first about you know, the Jones family and design philosophies. I think it's important to I recognized. You know, when you when you talk about the family, there really are kind of three different parts to that that tree, right, So you've got RTJ Senior, uh and and then you've got the two sons, Uh, Bobby, rt J two and Reeve.
So I think it's important to make sure that you know, they're all kind of uh it be it's easy to kind of lump them all together, but but in reality, they're each their own entity, right. So I never had the chance to meet rtjuh Senior. I know some of the you know, many of the people in the rt J two office obviously, UH. And Bobby will be you know, tells lots of stories about his dad and and stuff.
So I never had a chance to meet him. And I've really spent very little time been in the same room with Reese, but really haven't spent any time with him. So uh. In terms of my experience at r t J too, it was it was a great experience. And that you know, I was a kid right out of you know, right out of college, and you get the opportunity to work at, like you say, one of the bigger, more well known design firms in the world, and you just get exposed to so much. I mean, there were
projects all over the world. They came in all sorts of different shapes and sizes, So you were exposed to, you know, a municipal project that were required a RFP and an RFQ, So you got exposed to that kind of process and what goes into trying to win a job that way. And at the same time, then another project was going to be a private club that was privately owned by a billionaire, right, So you're getting to see different ends of the spectrum from that side of things.
The sites that came across, I mean, there would be sites that were really special and others that were not special at all. You'd see, you know, uh, whether it was something in Asia that was a dead flat, you know, the rice paddy, and then uh, something else in Asia that was you know, the side of a mountain.
Uh.
And then and then you'd see all you know, so you got to see uh and got exposed to everything. And then uh, you know, even in the golf design world, even the big firms, you know what you call the big firms, every day we only had a half a
dozen people, you know. Uh, So then you get to learn about each of those people and and they each have a different background and story, and they kind of have their own little design philosophy or or things that tendencies that they like to do on the projects that they work on. So, you know, even if you don't agree one hundred percent with with each of with past work or each of the design philosophies, it was a wonderful uh opportunity and ex experience and great exposure to
a wide variety of things. Part of the golf business.
Yeah, I imagine the big firm allows you so many opportunities to whether it's not even working on but getting to just see great you know, some of the best courses you know, and as well as you know getting you know, the volume of work and the volume of projects is so high that you get inundated so much quickly as a young kid.
Yeah, I think coming right out of school, it was, like I said, it was a great experience. You know, my first couple of years there, I didn't you know, I was assisting other people, so I wasn't playing a
real creative role in any any project. But you know, when when you see when when the you know, whether it was Bobby or somebody who was doing business development, went out, they took a trip to Europe, and they come back and they say, hey, I met with this guy, and here's here's the topo map for this site, you know, and and then somebody in the office puts together put together a preliminary routing just to see what could fit
on the site, or a preliminary grading plan. And then you know, if my job then those first couple of years was to uh, you know, trace that or draw it up pretty or or enter it into the computer or whatever. You know, that's just that's an opportunity. You know, how many uh, twenty two year olds get the opportunity to spend six hours looking at the topo map and
routing and trying to understand. And so what I would do is I would I would do whatever I was supposed to be doing, which is, you know, drawing up somebody else's idea. And then I'd take that same topo map and take it home at night and my own force and do my own thing. And then I'd bring it in and share it with whoever I was working with and say, hey, you know, give me some feedback on this, you know, So again just kind of great exposure all the way around.
Yeah, Yeah, what would you say you learned most over during your time there.
Well, I think I again, I think it was you know, it was probably not any one lesson, but that there were just exposure to different things, like, you know, exposure to the RFP process for public projects and meeting with clients from all around the world and different cultures and different backgrounds. And one thing that Bobby pointed out one day we were on site that there's something that I
take with me and still think about a lot. As we were out there talking about, you know, a certain golf hole, and you know, he was asking me to walk in through my thoughts on something and and and then he said, well, you know, it's important to remember that people see things differently. Just because you and I are standing next to each other looking at the same thing doesn't mean that we see it the same way.
And so it's really important to be really good with communication and make sure that you're you're verbalizing and you're talking, and you're working with whoever you're you're working with on the project, whether it's the owner or another designer or the contractor or whoever, to make sure that you really communicate well and understand what they're seeing. Don't just assume that because you're standing next to each other looking at
the same thing, that you see the same thing. So that's something that that I took away and I use every day.
Yeah, I feel like that's like when when people get to walk with an architects and I see it. You know, when I've I've played with I've gotten the opportunity to play with some architects, is like, you know, they just
see they see things in such a different way. And you know, I feel like I'm pretty well read and I see things in certain ways, but you know, they they and being able to communicate that to someone is so tough because a lot of times, like the person you're dealing with on a on a project from whether it be a club side or an owner's side, isn't necessarily as well read and don't understand you know, the principles behind architecture.
Absolutely that that is so true, and you see that on it. You know, I see that on every project I work on, and it just becomes more and more clear over time, and it makes sense. You know, if somebody we're trying to explain to me, you know the details of the you know, the wiring in the house. You know, I wouldn't understand what they're talking about, and they could be eloquent and and walk walk me through at a basic level, and I may or may not
get it right. But you know, as a golf architect, yeah, I go out and I, you know, look at an existing golf hole and I can immediately right in my mind see what I might want it to be, or or see an alternative. Or if you're looking at vacant land, you know, you can go out there and you can see right away how how you might want certain things to unfold. But the ability to try to communicate that and walk people through that is it's an important skill
and it's a it's a challenging exercise. I think when we were working on Santa Ana over the last few years, we would, uh, you know, I spent a lot of time with the members kind of walking through what the what the vision is, what the plans were, and then we'd have like a construction walk through, you know. So we would be in the middle of construction and Friday afternoon, we'd invite the members out. We'd go walk around and I'd walk them through, Okay, here we are, We're on
the first hole. We're on the left hand side. We're starting to shape a bunker over there. The green's going to be up ahead, and this is what we're trying to set up. And you'd walk people through that and then say are there any questions? And somebody would say is there going to be a bunker, and I'd say, well, yeah, actually I just told you we're actually standing in the bunker right here. Oh I couldn't see that. You know, looking looking at dirt is really really hard hard for people.
And as soon as the grass goes down, now all of a sudden kind of the aha moment comes, Oh, now I understand what you were telling me. But sometimes it's it's really tough along the way to uh, you know, for people who don't do this all day every day to kind of see it.
Yeah, the course I play at in Chicago. When I say I play at, I've played there like three times this year. But to old Donald Ross and all of our greens are like so small compared to what their original design was. And there they're to small ovals and circles because of irrigation and maintenance things, and you know,
it just happened over time. But you know, and then they put in these sprinklers and you see sprinklers on where the green should be and even trees on it where and I, you know, I texted my buddies, I took some aerial shots with my drone and then you know, photoshopped over them like where the green should be. And they, you know, nobody really knows what you're you know, they look at and they're like, oh, this guy's just crazy.
But then when you play with them and you walk and you show them, it's like, look at this where this green should go.
And then look imagine this pin, Like imagine how this pin completely changes the whole and how when you get these greens over close to the bunkers, how much more of a challenge it is. And it's not necessarily even just the pinnable surface. It's the stuff that's not pinnable that makes the ball roll off the green ten yards.
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure that they would be uh that you could talk to them for months and months and months, But if you snuck out in the middle of the night and mow down the area in question to something close to green height, they'd probably see it a lot, a lot easier.
Yeah, it's yeah, hoping they'd do something that at this fall.
But so you know, on the subject, you know, what do you think went wrong with golf course architecture?
And not to say.
There weren't any good projects, but with this dearth of projects that you know, end up now being just you know, kind of sores on the golf community.
From like nineteen sixty to two thousand.
And five, well, I think a couple of things. So first I would I might have a little bit different time frame because I think that probably in the mid nineties there at least started to be a lot a lot of better stuff that started to come about. So I don't know if you'd got you know, from ninety five to two thousand and five, sure, there were dozens of golf courtre maybe even hundreds of golf courses, but people spent a lot of time and money and that
aren't very special. But there also were some that are pretty special. So I'm not sure you want to totally lump them all together, but I think to me, there's
probably three things. The first thing to keep in mind was that that kind of coincided with technology advances in terms of earth moving, in terms of agronomy, so all of a sudden, whereas in the early nineteen hundreds, a golf course was pretty much built where a golf course should be built, right, A group of people would get together and they'd say, hey, we're interested in forming a golf club, and they'd go out and they'd find the appropriate land because they didn't have the ability to create
their own environment, right, so they had to find an environment that was suitable for golf, and so the land was better. You know, there weren't golf carts, you know, So now you're laying out a golf course that's walkable, and you're trying to lay one out that doesn't require earth moving. So now fast forward to the sixties, and all of a sudden, we're building golf courses proally where
they don't belong. We're building them in swamps and deserts and mountain sides, and all of a sudden, we've got golf carts and we've got big bulldozers. So now if the environment doesn't work for us, we'll create our own. And if the parcel doesn't work, well, we can piecemeal a couple of them together and play a hole and drive two hundred yards and play another hole. So those are some of the things that probably went awry. The other thing is that the reason for building a golf
course probably changed. You know, back in the early nineteen hundreds, people got together and they built a golf course because they wanted to play off. The vast majority of courses probably from nineteen sixty one, we're probably built for a reason other than golf, whether that was to sell real estate or fill hotel rooms and be an amenity for some kind of a resort. So with those things in mind,
the reasoning for having a golf course was different. That led to, in my opinion, what is very troubling, and that's just a ton of artificial features. Right, So all of a sudden, we're using the bulldozer to craft a new landscape, and we're building a bunch of artificial lakes, and we're plant and flowers and planting trees everywhere. And now we've got golf carts, so we start putting in
seven miles of concrete ribbons all over the place. So all the stuff that takes away from from great golf and all the stuff that we love about the golf from the early ninety teen hundreds, you know, we're kind of kind of did the opposite for a big period of time there, and now we're kind of at a very interesting time in golf architecture that we've got a lot of wonderful projects that really are are you know, kind of recapturing the essence of the early nineteen hundreds
where somebody's building a golf course for to build a special golf course because people want to play golf. And at the same time, then there's still also a number.
Of projects where people are building a golf course to.
Full hotel rooms and to sell real estate. So you've kind of got this interesting dichotomy that's going on.
Now, Yeah, what do you you say?
You know, I think one of the things I think about a lot is all these golf courses that were you know, they aren't you know, they aren't the best golf courses, But what happens to them in the future, Like how can we you know, are they can they be fixed? And can they be made into something that's good for the game and a good golf course for people to play every day?
And how do you go about doing that?
Yeah, So I think it's an interesting question. And like everything with golf, it's site specific, right, So the right solution on site A is not the right solution at site B, and the right solution in city A might not be the right solution in city B. But we're definitely at a time in golf where, you know, we
have a lot more courses closing than opening. And what's interesting to me is the ones that are closing aren't always the worst golf courses, right, which is tragic, But it seems one thing that I've certainly noticed is that there's so many, like you said, usually golf courses that were built from nineteen sixty on or renovated from nineteen sixty on. That just leaves so much to be desired,
and that's really a shame. And so I'm cautiously optimistic that over the next twenty years, many of those golf courses that you know, one of my favorite things to do is to go look on Google Earth, right, you could just go around and go check out different golf courses all over the world or all over the country, and there are so many golf courses that might be in a good location, in a good city, in a good area, and then you go look at the golf course and every single hole, you know, the green is
the same size oval. There's a bunker short left, there's a bunker short right. You know, there's usually one fairway bunker out there. Everything's been planted with trees over the last forty years, so you know, you know that you're just hitting the same shot over and over again. You get up on every tee and keep it between the trees, and you hit into every green and it's you.
Know, avoid the hazards right.
And left and get it out of the green and stay below the whole. But those are golf courses that might be in a good area where, you know, if and when the time comes to replace the infrastructure, the irrigation system and the drainage and stuff, rather than investing in all of that infrastructure and keeping things the way they are, when it's time to invest in the infrastructure, that's the time to make some changes and make sure that, hey, we can take this property that's already permitted as a
golf course and already zoned as a golf course and has a good market and get rid of this mediocre thing and make something special and give people the stuff that we all kind of yearned for, the stuff from the early nineteen hundreds where people had options and angles, and there was a lot of variety and strategy and thought to thought to the round of golf.
It's interesting I hosted a lot of people on this podcast, and I've noticed over time that almost everybody, you know, not almost, I would say the vast majority of people that I host on this podcast that are involved with golf today grew up playing at a municipal or a public golf course. And I think to myself, Okay, the majority of those experiences probably weren't the best golf course experiences.
And imagine if those courses were really fun to play and had really sound architectural principles, not to mention the sustainability aspect of you know, if you don't have too many hazards, how much cheaper it is to maintain, and how these different little things like how many more great people would we have, you know, involved with the game still if they grew up at a place that was really goo great play.
Yeah. I think I certainly agree that municipal golf is important and it's where many people got their start. I certainly got my start in Madison playing on municipal golf courses and loved it, and I wholeheartedly agree that it would be awesome. It doesn't cost any more money to build an architecturally interesting golf course than it does architecturally uninteresting golf course, right, and if you're smart about it, you can craft one that's maybe easier to maintain as well.
At the same time, to your point, I guess where I made different a little bit is that, you know, at that age, you know, as much as I was interested in golf as a eight year old or a twelve year old, I probably wasn't at a point where I was really at least consciously understanding the different it's of great architecture at that At that point, I think I was excited to have a go play a safe place to go play golf and have have fun with
my friend, you know. And I think it's important that we certainly preserve and do everything that we can to to make sure that municipal golf does stick around, because in today's climate, uh, with with city budgets and stuff like that, that's a tough task. I mean, if people have a choice between uh, you know, the fire department and the golf course, the fire department is going to win, and it probably should. Yeah, And yet and yet the golf course does have a very important place in a community.
It's a it's a great community gathering spot. It's a place where people can have a healthy activity, but particularly if people walk, uh you know, playing golf, you know, and golf courses uh you know, Bobby always you talk about the golf courses are kind of the green lungs of a city. You know, if you fly across America and look down, most of the green spaces in America's
cities are golf courses. So you know, it's a great place to be outdoors and with and walk and get a good experience that way, and it's a great place to bring a community together.
Yeah.
I think if you if you just focus on like city owned golf courses for like major metropolitan areas and and really made those like really fun, cool places to play, it would it would make such a difference. I think about my home to the city Chicago. We have a nine hole course called Sydney Maravitz.
It used to be called.
Waveland up on the north side of the city and it's it's a it's right on the lake, I mean the most in it's right in the heart of the city. It's the easiest course to get to. But the golf course is just so bland and and there's a lot of trees. It's tight, and you get a ton of beginners out there, and I always think, like, why not just take all the trees out, make it fairway grass
all around, and you've got these beautiful lake views. And instead of it taking four hours to play nine holes, it probably would take you know, three hours or two and a half and to be just much more interesting golf course.
Let's do it. I'm ready.
I just need to. I got to get in with big politics in Chicago.
I guess, well, that's an easy thing to navigate. Yeah, I'm sure that. I'm sure that you know, one meeting and share your vision and they'll be ready to go and make it happen.
Right, Yeah, no money, you know, just go in there. It's a it's a pretty much bankruptcity. Just go in there and say, hey, we need a we need a couple of million for this. But so I'm curious just with you know, being a younger architect and having seen you you probably remember hitting a lot of golf balls.
I remember it. We're close to the same age.
And having lived through this change in technology and especially the golf ball. What do you see as like the future of golf course architecture, because what we're seeing from the high level player is that the really the skills that you need now are being able to hit the driver long and straight and be a good short iron wedge player and make putts and this whole long iron and working the golf ball has kind of died with the advancements of the ball in the last ten to fifteen years.
No doubt about it.
And the truth is that you know, when you combine the technology advances and how that impacts them, you know, really the one percent the very top players of the game golf is not sustainable at that I mean in order to you know, if we're going to keep technology the way that it is, or keep allowing advancements in technology with you know, the two players and the college kids, I mean, you've got to build an eighty five hundred or nine thousand yard golf course to challenge those guys,
and that means more land, and then that means more water and more resources, and it's it's just not sustainable.
So not to mention the course that that course is only played by one percent of the population.
Well, that's the thing is that you know, so much of the focus in the golf world and the attention and the media relates to a game that the other ninety percent aren't. Right. So, but the sad thing is what people see on TV is what they then, you know, kind of expect or demand at their facility. So, you know,
Augusta National and the Masters. I mean, everybody in golf loves the Masters, and you know, all golf architects appreciate Augusta National, right, I mean, there's nothing really bad to say about it, except for the fact that you could make the case that the televising of the Masters and Augusta National every spring, everybody who ever plays golf watches the Masters, and then they go and they expect or
want those types of conditions of their golf course. And what they don't understand is that, you know, the golf course Augusta is prepped all year for that event, and that they've got an unlimited budget, and that that doesn't that is not the case at your local union in Chicago.
And so now there's this, you know, there's everybody's pushing to make their golf course, you know green, and I don't mean environmentally friendly green, I mean artificial green, and let's put white sand in the bunkers and do all these different things. So those are the things that aren't
really sustainable. And kind of to your point earlier about this pool golf and stuff, we I think we'd be well served to take a look at the Scots or take a look at Australia and see kind of how they do it and and and if we want golf to thrive over the long haul, that's that's probably a better model to look to mm hmm.
Yeah, I agree.
In terms of a project that you've been working on for now nearly a decade, the Sharp Park Park project, and it's the old Alisair Mackenzie course in the city of San Francisco owns it, and you know, it's a great seaside location that over the years has been you know a little bit altered for environmental reasons, but just basically a neglected.
Course that could be one.
Of the finest public golf courses in the world, designed by arguably the greatest architect of all time. Tell us a little bit about Sharp Park and you know the journey of that course.
Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because it is such a special place. It's actually in the city of Pacifica, which is about fifteen minutes kind of south of San Francisco, but you gret the city does own the golf course. And so the reason that it's like you say, Kenzie golf course from the thirties, and it's been in the news and I've been involved, like you said, nearly a decade because there was a threat that we
were actually going to lose the golf course. There were federal lawsuits over habitat for frogs and snakes, and two local golfers and lawyers got together, Richard Harris and Bowl Linx. And these guys are true heroes in the golf world. So if people haven't heard of them, they should google them and look them up. Them a thank you note.
But they they basically got together and said, Hey, this this national treasure, this this museum, this monument is about to be uh stolen from us, and and we're golfers and we're environmentalists and this just doesn't have to be the case. And and so uh, they they kind of rallied the troops and engaged you know, the right uh legal team as well as the community, the golf community, the local golf community and have rallied and saved the
golf course. So over the last you know, almost a decade, the course has been involved in legal battles and thankfully, due to their great work, we've we've kind of we keep winning each of those legal battles to preserve to save the golf course. And then you know, our dream is to to be able to restore that and we're actively working towards that, and I think we'll we'll get there. It's it's a it's a long process. Like like you
talked about, you know, governments aren't easy. It's a it's a site that does have challenges in terms of you know, there's a number of different government agencies that have some kind of kind of jurisdiction on the property. So navigating
those those challenges or constraints are are difficult. But I think there's a great chance that in the near future we'll get to put some of that McKenzie back or unpolish some of the mackenzie that's been defted over over the years, and I think that will be something that hopefully the golf world will embrace. I know they already have to save the golf course. But hopefully they'll get a chance to come out and see something special in the years to come.
Yeah, it's something that I've been paying attention to. And you always, you always want to see these courses. I have one in Chicago is Downers Grove Golf Club, which is nine hole course. But it's the original site of Chicago Golf Club and over the years, the Park District, you know, since they took ownership of it, they've altered the course. They built a driving range and and now
there's like there's four original holes. But I always think about, like, man, how cool would this thing to be be to get back to what it was and have a nine hole you know Cebe McDonald course. That was his first design ever in America.
Yeah, it's crazy, very Yeah, you know, I think it sounds like a worthy cause to me. I mean it, you know, it's unfortunately we're at a stage where where stuff gets in the way, and so it is a challenge. And so that's why people like Richard Bow and I'm sure there are others in Chicago and across the rest of the country that need to kind of step up and fight and save the day.
And because this stuff is worth fighting for. It is worth saving, you know, Shark Park as much as we're all interested in it. From the the golf course standpoint and the McKenny standpoint, it represents all that you would want about what a golf course should be to a community. You go out there today and you'll see people, you know, ages, you know, five to ninety, You'll see you know, twenty different ethnicities out there, and they're all you know, most
of the people are out there walking. It just represents what the game is all about. And so those places are certainly worth we're fighting for and doing everything in our power to save and when we have a chance to restore them.
Yeah, I think that's the the same same thing out there. You know, it's a pact shot sheet and that's part part of the reason they they haven't done anything is that, you know, it's a nine hole course that the community makes money on. So if it's not if it's not broken from a monetary standpoint, in their eyes, why do anything.
Right, Yeah, I think you know, it's kind of the bleeding, the slow down.
Right, if you've got.
A major open wound in the middle of your forehead, then.
You get to go to the emergency room. But if you've got a.
Internal bleeding that you can't see, sometimes you don't see it until it's too late.
That's a great and great analogy. I might have to use that.
I've been talking about going to park district meetings and just you know, just trolling the park district for for a while. Now I might have to start doing that in the winter.
There you go.
So I want to you uh talk a little bit.
You know, we've gotten on the subject of Golden Age architecture and I know your your kind of design principles are you know, throw back to the Golden Age. Who would you say are your biggest influences from the standpoint of architects.
Yeah, great question. You know, I think again that you know, obviously mackenzie jumps to mind in terms of this exposure is over time, I'm learning to appreciate more and more loss from a routing standpoint, appreciate some of those routings. But again it's it's it's tough to say, you know, I love all the kind of McDonald and Rayner stuff.
It's interesting to see particularly where they would go out of their way to you know, if they had an idea they if they had to move a bunch of dirt to make it happen, they'd go for it type of thing. So that that that's always interesting. I think again it's just site specific, right, So those principles that in California get exposed lots of George Thomas. So they're they're all unique and interesting and great and have different
backgrounds to them. And and but you know, the overriding thing that I've kind of taken away from all of them was, you know, I personally love the idea of having golf courses be fun. I love the idea of golf courses being natural. I love the idea of strategy and the and the golf ball on the ground and what happens when the ball's on the ground. So I'm
a huge fan of ground contours having strategic value. And so I don't, you know, hard hard to say, you know how each one impacts those those overarching themes, but they all certainly contribute to it.
So outside of say Mackenzie, if you could bring if you could bring one Golden Age architect back and have like kind of dinner with them and have them consult on, say your your next project, you do which one would you bring.
Back a great question the cop out answer, but as actually probably accurate would be it would depend on what the project was. Yeah, there's probably a different answer depending on what the site was and what the who the client was, So it probably depends. And then you got to get into the question of if it's if it's just a dinner are you are you picking somebody based on on personality and the stories that you're gonna be told, so you know, if you didn't have to pick up
the bill, it might be killing half. Yeah, I was going to say, that's.
A known, a known socialite, you know, interesting guy and uh a great architect. It's amazing to me with the us am at Riviera, how the I think the Philly the Philly Golf School and architecture, you know, for those that aren't aren't familiar with it, I have an article on my site, but this whole affiliate golf school is incredible.
With George Thomas, A. W.
Tilling, Hast, William Flynn, you know, then you have Hugh Wilson, Crump and all these guys. You look at their work and they've they've they've started because of you know, them getting their ass whooped in championship golf and championship amateur golf. And now you look back and they arguably have the majority of the timeless classic championship golf sites all came from that those three guys, there are five guys.
Pretty awesome, Yeah, pretty awesome, no doubt about it. And and and to think back, you know, you know, talking to you know, spending a night talking to Walter Travis and and talking golf architecture and then talking about playing playing career. You know, so those those would be uh interesting conversations to have. Yeah, you know, all sorts of all sorts of great day. It would be awfully fun to go back in time and have a have a roundtable or like you say, have a good dinner.
It's something I wondered because, like those guys like openly collaborated, and I think a lot of it. You know, one of the things that's changed is that it wasn't as a business then as it is now. But that open collaboration, free flow of ideas led to such great work.
And I ever wonder if that will happen again.
I think it might be you know a little bit with you know how Core and Crenshaw with their all their associates, you know, spawning out and dope with his intern program.
But I always wonder, you.
Know, do you do you ever have peers that you go to with, you know, asking.
Him questions and bouncing ideas off of them.
Yeah. I think that's a great point that you bring out. And I think to me, that's one of the exciting things about this time and history. You know, and we touched on earlier that we have a little bit of a dichotomy going on, and that there's a number of projects that you know, might be done for a housing development or fill hotel rooms and architecturally may not be very interesting, but then you've got a number of other projects that are very interesting and are on unique sites
and sometimes very special pieces of land. And and you know, when you think about the architecture world, yeah, you've got an interesting range of people in the industry, different ages and different backgrounds and coming from different family trees, if
you will, of architecture. And so yeah, I've been very fortunate to meet a number of different architects, old and young, and try to keep in touch and bounce ideas and have chatted with different people about collaborating and doing different things. And I think those are things that hopefully, I think there's been a little bit of that, and you touched on kind of the you know, whereas the collaboration in the early nineteen hundreds might have been the way we read about it now, you know, might.
Have been these guys.
But for anybody listening who hasn't been involved in a golf project, there is an endless amount of collaboration, you know, on every project, whether it's the guy whose name you read in the magazine, but there are people, you know, the people who are shaping the golf course are involved, and there's regular on site debates and conversations, and you know, a good idea can come from anywhere, whether it's the client or the guy digging the trench. You know, a
good idea can come from everywhere anywhere. There is a lot of collaboration on every project. But I think you will probably see more, you know, they'll probably be one off projects, but you'll see more collaboration between people in the industry. And that's something that I'm uh, I like the idea of myself.
Yeah, I think it's a it would be interesting to see if you did a modern day Pine Valley type project where you get five guys and you collaborate. Obviously there has to be one person that's the boss. But you know, yeah, you can't, you can't, and there has to be a unified vision. But like you know, the idea of like Pine Valley where like there, you know, the Hell's half Acre Hole, for example, is is like
notoriously a tilling Hals golf hole. And you know, you see different things in the same thing with Marion where there's so much flint in it that it could be considered a Flynn golf course. That you know, these these these golf courses became you know, they're the greatest golf courses in the world, but you know they were collaborated on and the spread of ideas. So I think we've we've talked about this pipe dream idea.
I have enough.
I'd love to talk a little bit about Chambers Bay, kind of your big project and you did it. You were the project architect on it during your time at rt J two, And it had the US Open, It's had the US AM. Most recently it had the Pacific Coast AM. I you know, from all accounts, I mean, it's just a beloved golf course by people that play it, and also the the players.
You know, I'll rave about it.
How you know, like and the only complaint always comes back to be, you know, the greens and the putting surfaces. How frustrating is it to have a course that is universally loved. But like the two things that you know, the US Open complained about was spectating and the green surfaces, which are really out of the architect's control.
Yeah, lots two on there. I'll start by saying, just talk about kind of being universally loved, and I think that to be to be fair, I guess I would I would say that it's probably not universally loved. I know a number of the players who competed in the Amateur in the Open either didn't like it or hated it, and that was okay. If you look back in history, I would imagine that most special golf courses are somewhat polarizing, particularly early on, And so that's okay.
Well it's different.
Also, you know, people always have like a reaction to.
It being different.
You know, there's with there's so much about angles and different ways you can play the course, so you know, naturally, like these guys play the same style golf course almost week out, narrow fairways, high rough, you know, is what I call robot golf, and Chambers definitely wasn't that style of golf.
Absolutely and that was by design for me personally. When you think about championship golf. And again now we're just talking about the one percent, not everybody else, but but to me, championship golf is way way too much about execution and not enough about thought and strategy and uh and creativity. And so to your point, you know, weekend week out on the PGA Tour, it's you know, very
little thinking is required. Right hit between the trees, hit it between the bunkers, you know, avoid the pond, and just not a lot of thinking. And so Chambers, Uh. You know, obviously at the municipal course, it's open to everybody, but there always was the desire and intention to to attract and host major championships. And one of the one of my great hopes for the project would be that
the golf course would actually require golfers to think. And you know, to your point earlier about technology and how it's changed a little bit of the game in terms of shot making, you know, the goal at the Chambers was you know, through the ground countours to ask players to hit the ball high and hit it low, and you know, move the ball left to right, and move it right to left, and so, you know, the greatest joy I took out of both of those championships was
to watch the best players in the game stand in the middle of the fairway and talk to their caddy and try to figure out how best to get the ball close to the hole, knowing that they had four or five different ways to do it, but if they were smart enough, they could actually figure out that one
was would serve them far better than the others. So for me, you know, in twenty ten, watching Peter Euline stand in the fairway and talk to those caddy about, yeah, I'm two hundred yards out, but do I want to fly at one eighty with a draw into that slope and let it release, or do I want to fly a one ninety and hit it high and landed at the toe of that slope with with a faide to try and hold it. Those were the things that made me,
uh most excited. So from that standpoint, yeah, absolutely, I think you know, I was thrilled to death with how the amateur and the Open unfolded, you know, the the unfortunate thing about the Open in particular, and you know, the first year of Fox and their coverage and and unfortunately one of the storylines became the dreams and obviously the the issues with some of the poland that had popped up, and and and it was it was very sad because you know, the people who pour their heart
and soul into maintaining the golf course are friends of mine and very very talented people, and and and they know what they're doing. And there was just kind of a big confluence of whether it was weather or championship prep or all these different things kind of kind of led to something and then it became a big storyline that took away from so many of the other great things about the event, so that that was really the
only negative. But I think over the long haul, those things will get worked out and everything will everything will will be fine in the future. And when we first built the project, we were first getting started building it. You know, John Landenberg, who was the county executive and the project vision area, he made it clear in the very first meeting that you know, this is one hundred year project.
We're creating something here that's going to be here for multiple generations, and our goal is to get it right for them and to take the long view and to do everything in our power to make sure that you know, future generation have a place to enjoy. And you know, that's you know, from a non championship golf standpoint, that's what makes Chambers Base so special is that every day there are hundreds, if not thousands of people that go walk that public trail that is above and weeds through
the golf course. There's you know, golfers that are our locals, and it's attracted golfers from all over the country and all over the world, but have a different you know, had never heard of Pierce County, Washington before, and now all of a sudden they come, and when they come, they stay and they spend money and support local businesses and things like that. So a lot to be excited about there.
Yeah, I think that's something that always gets lost, is like Chambers Bay is so young and its life is a golf course. And do you think about like especially like Marion. I mean, Marion continued to undergo iterations and changes from their first USM they hosted through all the way.
I think it was nineteen sixteen they had their first US Am and then you know, the golf course really wasn't complete until nineteen thirty four, and in the meantime they'd hosted six or seven championships during that time, So you know, the idea of like, you know, a small change here and there. I mean, the golf course yielded probably the most exciting US Open in the last decade, and I think it gets lost especially with the US Open mentality of the necessity of thick rough and seeing
guys hack it out. Like the most interesting golf is exactly what you hit on with Peter Eulin talking about it is when you can put doubt and you can put you know, you have to for you're forcing the greatest players in the world to think about the type of shot they're playing in. There is just the best kind of golf where you start to see the shot making come to the forefront and you see the best players in the world having to hit different styles of golf shots that you don't see week in week out.
Yeah, to my point, those were the things we're excited about. I mean, there's so many great takeaways. I mean, you think about it, you know, from a from a support standpoint, when when the Open was at Chambers, well, when the Amateur was at Chambers, my understanding everything I've been told is that they had you know, some of the best crowds ever and some of the best volunteer sign up ever for an amateur. For the Open, the volunteer you
know sign up was their quickest ever fill up. They sold more merchandise than they'd ever sold before or in in you know, many a decade or whatever. You know, it did well on TV. And then from a pure playing standpoint, you think about the amateur, you had the number one amter in the world beat the number two ameter in the world at the time for your finale. When you think about the Open, the number one, you know, the best player in the world at the time. One championship.
The leader board, if you look look back, was probably the best leader board you've had in twenty five years. And certainly the back nine and the Sunday had you know, probably the best leader boards of anything in the lands
twenty five years. So there's a lot of things to be excited about and positive takeaways, and clearly there were things that you'd like to refine and do over you know, I think from a spectator standpoint, I was there all week, and you know, the USGA did a great job leading up to the event about sharing with the public that this was a little bit different of the US Open and that the venue was such that you'd be far better served to go to a grand stand and watch
two or three home from a grand stand as opposed to trying to follow a group, you know, for all eighteen holes. And that was that was the good part. The bad part was the public listened to them, and the public went to the grand stands, and by nine o'clock all the grand stands were full. So then you then all of a sudden you had a bunch of traffic challenges with people walking around. But that's something that you can learn from. You can you can modify a
roping plan. You can add more grand stands, you know,
those are those are things that could be worked around. So, you know, it was it certainly was for me, you know, as a young guy, you know who who loves links golf, who loves municipal golf, who loves championship golf, whose dream in high school was to design a US Open golf course to be able to be part of that, and watch it from the first first day on site, interviewing, trying to get the job, and to go all the way through building the golf course and then having an
open announcement. Then watch it go all the way through. It's been a pretty interesting journey.
Yeah, it's it's got to be really cool.
I I envy the ability for you guys to just kind of watch your pro you know, have your name on something and watch it and watch people's reactions and then you know, to get to see the whole world reacted. I mean, it's it's got to be pretty cool. I wanted to get to We've got a lot of reader and our listener questions from Twitter, and I wanted to get to.
Some of those.
Just I'm not sure if you've ever listened to a pod, but we have an overrated underrated segment. So they'll be peppered in there and you just you know, you can feel free to expand.
But you know, the general.
Consist it just say, you know, overrated or underrated on different topics, so those will be sprinkled in here. We'll start out with a overrated underrated from Barry Elevated Greens in False.
Fronts, Uh, are those two separate things. Yeah, underrated? I like I like a good false front, particularly on an uphill hole.
Uh.
Elevated greens, I'll go overrated. You know, I love golf where the ground game is an option, and so if you've got a green that's more at grade, the aerial option is still always there, but but the ground game is something that I just I just love. So elevated greens have their place, but I'm balanced, I have to say, uh.
Overrated, mm hmm.
I feel like that's an easy way to make a lot of golf courses more playable is just to lessen the grade of that front of the green that because then you know, more people can run the ball into them.
Absolutely so again, go look at most golf courses between nineteen sixty and ninety five, and almost all of them the green is two to three feet above the elevations the fruway. It just it just makes life so difficult for mid to high handicappers who golf is difficult enough for that group, takes so much fun and strategy out of it.
It has zero effect on the one percent or the ten percent we always we've been talking about.
Well, in some respects it actually makes it easier for him because I know they're just grabbing whatever club is
going to fly to the middle of the green. You know, I don't know about you, but for me, if I see an open entrance green, I start thinking about running it in, even if I'm in a you know, if I'm back in the Midwest and the conditions aren't firm and fast, if it's playing soft, even if it's playing soft and there's an open entrance, just my eye and my tendency to like ball on the ground gets me thinking about going on the ground, even if it's not
the right play due to conditions. So uh, in some respects, the little alvy of green might make life easier for the low handed gapper.
Yeah, especially I think also especially around the green, because you know, you the lob wedge has become such a weapon for shots around the green. And when it's when it's perched up, you don't even think about You just grab the lob weedge and you hit the shot. But when it's when it's flat, you all of a sudden your mind starts to race and you start thinking about different things.
You could do.
Do I land this, you know five feet short, and you know kind of hit a little checker. You know, they are all kinds of things. It's just more options are good. I think people just are tired of hearing me say that. But Barry also had another question that is, I think a really good one. He's a he's a Hawaii guy, so he's he's very interested in wind and how it plays a factor in design. You know, the prevailing trade winds affects all courses in Hawaii. But then uh,
linksy options aren't always provided for the most part. I mean, there's a lot of frustrate elevated greens that are tough to access.
With only one shot option. How do you approach prevailing winds?
So that's that's a great question. And uh and wind really is It's one of the wonderful elements of the game. I think it's it's very hard to paint with a broad brush. Again, when it comes to golf and golf courses, everything is site specific. So you know, for example, if you're in Hawaii or in a windy place and you're building a new golf course and you have a lot of room, then the then the prevailing wind can impact your actual routing of the golf course and how you
lay out the holes. Oftentimes that's not the case. You might have a parcel that's not as big, and where you route the holes is more a byproduct of the amount of space that you have, right, and you need to you need to fit them in, uh, fit the puzzle pieces in. But then you start to think about the wind on a on the individual design of the hole, if you will, uh, right, and and maybe where hazards are placed. Or to our discussion earlier, whether or not the green is open entrance in at grade or or
elevated or not so. Uh, it's all very very site specific. If you do, if you're fortunate enough to have an open site in a windy area and and uh you know, if you have the triple whammy of having a sandy soil, uh, then the then the prevailing wind can can play an even bigger role. And and actually laying out the course otherwise, if you don't have all those luxuries are probably is a bigger impact on the detailed design of the wholes and the features.
That's a that's a great answer.
Here's some with you being a Wisconsin native, We've got some uh, you know, questions about the Badger state.
Two weeks, two weeks from the day, two years from to day two weeks.
So with the Brent Wagner wants to know what course in Wisconsin would you most want to restore or redesign.
Uh, well, yeah, that's a great question. So in terms of redesign, that's probably not politically correct.
Yeah, we'll save restore.
We'll say restore.
So there's there's some there's some neat ones out there, you know. Uh, there's probably a couple in Milwaukee that probably a couple of private clubs in Milwaukee that probably would uh fit that bill. There's there's some underrated uh kind of hidden gym golf courses uh uh that that are kind of neat. I our family spend a little bit of time up north. There's a nine hole club, Ryan Lander Country Club that's pretty neat. Uh. I think
I haven't played there in forever. But there's a course in the southeast that's uh, I think kind of more of a mompo operation. Spring Valley that's oh yeah, got got some pretty cool stuff going on that would be great to peel back the layers and expose some of that stuff. There's yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, so it's a great time of golf in Wisconsin. Wisconsin's becoming a hotbed for golf. So I'd love the opportunity to
to get back and do some stuff there. I was fortunate enough we did a Readers of Century World that was very, very satisfying and great client and very proud of what we've done up there. But yeah, I love the opportunity to get back and uh and work in the Bedro state.
Yeah, I'd love to. I think there's an Ozaki Country Club could be so so, so good if they they got rid of some trees, and I mean that place has some some really cool features.
Absolutely and at it.
Have you have you ever played Eagle Springs.
Eagle Springs, I don't know that I have.
Oh man, you got to get Well, it's the oldest course in Wisconsin.
And where where exactly it's in?
I want to say it's relatively close to two.
I played it years ago. Let me see where it is.
Uh, it's in but it's got some just unbelievable green complexes and it's you know, it's the oldest course in Wisconsin.
It's in Eagle, Wisconsin. So in let's see what is it.
It's in.
Waukesha, I think county.
Oh okay, yeah, so it's Milwaukee suburbs.
Yeah, yeah, but nine whole course. And I mean, just if they've got this great volcano green and just some unbelievable dream complexes, It's like that place could be really really good and you know, you could go play there for I think it's like fifteen bucks in Walk let's see, and it's a great little course. It's yeah, it's a summer weekend rate is walking is eighteen seventy five, So very nice, pretty good.
So yeah, I mean Wisconsin's Wisconsin's getting a lot of puk for all the big, fancy, fancy places, but yeah, restoring some of the smaller gems would be a good thing too.
I like this question.
H HPS asked it for every pod.
We don't get to it on every Architecture pod.
But if you're playing, if you could play one place on a Sunday afternoon with a Sunday bag, what what course are you going to play?
Yeah, that's a that's a tough one. There's there's so many to choose from.
You know.
I've been lucky enough to go out to Prairie Dunes a few times, and that's a that's a place. I would love to be out there with a Sunday bag on a Sunday afternoon. That's pretty that's a pretty special place. But you know, I mean, uh the uh yeah, I'll just I'll stick with prairie dunes. But just know that there's a dozen enough of them. That's Are you know anything that's a good a good easy walk that has excitement and strategy and interest on a happy camper.
Mm yeah, there's that's a tough question. I mean there, I don't think there's a wrong answer if you I mean anywhere. It's pretty nice to do that, especially if there's nobody around.
You can play well if there's nobody around. I don't know if you're like me, if you're out there by yourself, ill you know you're playing. I'll hit a shot, you know, you'll hit your approach shut into a green if you don't like how you hit the first one, and you drop another one and hit another one, and then you get up to the green. And once you get up to the green, then you may or may not, you know,
putt the ball you originally hit. But you must just start seeing different shots to get hit and drop five or six balls around the green. If you're going to do that, then I'll then I'll stick with play dunes is a fun place to tip and putt.
Yeah, That's one of my favorite things to do when I play by myself is I just throw five balls into different spots around the green and try and get all five up and down.
It's it's it's a fun way. I recommend it. It's great practice too, all right.
So Katie w wants to know what's the best way for an individual to begin getting into architecture.
Uh, well, I'm sure you've probably touched on this in the past. I think there's you know, lots of different routes again, tiny industry and uh and small one to get into it. But there's a number of good books to read. Uh. And then if you're if you're really serious about making it a career, I would encourage people to get involved in golf construction and golf course maintenance. I think both of those things are critical elements to have an understanding of and and the exposure of those
opportunities will be invaluable. So, uh, you know, getting involved in golf course maintenance, getting involved in golf construction, and then you know there's there's a number of great books on the subject that I'm sure that you probably have a listed on your website somewhere.
It's funny, I did a books article over the winter and I put a ton in there.
But it's the most asked question I get.
I get a couple of emails a week and I need to just write them down into a post because what I end up doing is I end up applying the same way to all these questions, and it's like, God, why don't I just have like a post on the site that's like linked right by where somebody the contact us page.
So there's something I need to do, you know.
I think that the thing for people, you know, there's you know, every year anytime, you know, I'm on a plane and somebody asked me what you do, and you know, oh my god, that's the coolest job in the world. I want to do that, you know, And then you get others to say, you know, I think the key thing for people is to really for young people who are interested in golf architecture and want to make a career out of it, is to really think long and hard to yourself about what do you want out of
that career? Are you looking for fame and fortune and to be you know, do you read magazines and see magazine interviews or people on TV and you want to be that person? Or do you want to be a part of a team that builds golf courses? Right, because there's a number of opportunities for people who want to be a part of a team to build and maintain golf courses. But you may never you know, be on
a magazine cover or on TV. And what you think you might want when you're eighteen might be drastically different than what you realize you wanted when you're forty. But you know, it's certainly you know, like I said earlier, I pinch myself every day that I get to peak, get to be part of it, and get to be involved in this. And I think there's anybody who's ever been involved in building a golf course, I think would say that it's it's a magical process and and and one that's very rewarding.
M Yeah, I think it's a lot less glamorous than people think, especially at the start of your career.
Yeah, you know, I think, uh again, if you're if you're looking for fame and fortunate, uh, probably not. You know, probably better off to go get that business degree and
go go make your money somewhere else. But uh, if if you want to wake up every day and know that you're going to get to interact with interesting, passionate people, and you get to be a part of uh being doing something creative, and you're going to get to build something that's going to last for decades and decades where uh, where generations of people are going to go make memories with their family and friends. Uh, then then uh, then it certainly worthy pursuit.
Mm So what GA Golf Architecture Texas wants to know least favorite trend in modern golf course architecture.
Long listed? Choose from. I don't know the trends. I'll just say the the overarching umbrella for me is artificial elements, whether it's a man made lake or artificial mounding, or concrete cart paths, or flower beds or planted trees, all of these things. You know, again we talked earlier about kind of making golf unsustainable. All of these things, in my mind tracked from golf rather than add to it.
I would agree with almost all that I think.
I hate Roff. I'm on a mission, personal mission to eliminate rough from the game ago. I'd be happy to eliminate par te blocks. We get rid of t blocks while we're at it, all sorts of stuff to give rid.
Of around the greens. Rough.
All it does is it diminishes skill and brings you know, the great short games closer to the bad short games.
Yeah, certainly. Take You know, when I spent the last few years working on a project in southern California at Santa Ana Country Club. And so the golf course that was there before we did our big project was essentially at seventies or eighties golf course and every single green complex you know, bunker, short, left, short, right, The green was all the same size and shape and surrounded by rough,
and all the greens were elevated three feet right. And so you know, in going through the process and talking about, you know, what could be, we were trying to do some member education on the courses there. And you know, most members of a club, you play your course, and you play there with your friends. It's what you know and you love, right, But when you really start to study golf courses, you can get a feel for a boy, I'm hitting the same shot over and over and over again.
And you know everything, if you went twenty yards around every single green at that golf course and probably the vast majority of other golf courses from that time period, everything within twenty yards is the same shot. It's a sandwich, and it's either a lob shot out of rough or a lob shot out of a bucker. And there's you know, that's a very hard shot for a mid to high handicapper to execute, and it's not terribly tough for a
low handicap to execute. And when you introduced the ground plane, and now you've got tighter ground and different undulations and things are maintain firm and fast. Now you can play the ball on the ground or in the air. You can Uh, those those undulations, whether they're convex or concave, can be can be used. They can become a hazard or a helper. Uh and uh. It just brings out so much more in terms of strategy and creativity. And and the nice thing is for for a higher handicapper,
the the options available to them. You know, if you're not able to hit that lob shot with a sandwich, you can put it and uh and and so I just find that to be something that's that's critically uh important, and we hope we see a lot more of There has been, uh there's been a trend towards that, at least in some circles, and that's something I'd like to see more and more of.
Yeah, I agree, So last question, then we'll do a couple over and underags then taken up more.
Than enough of your time, Johnny begsos if we've rolled the golf ball back to the original pro v one with that save OLED courses.
Oh, I don't know that it's a one. You know, certainly addressing the golf ball and possibly addressing clubs together, I think is critical. And again this really relates to championship golf. I mean, as much as the advances in technology have helped you know, lesser players, you know, lesser players don't hit the ball for three hundred yards. It's these top one presenters that are flying at three twenty and that's the that's the real Crux four Championship golf.
So I don't know if it's going back to the pro V one, I don't know the exact right place to go back to, but I know we have to have to go back and and and have to have to get get it under control, and it needed to be done a long time ago, and and we're long overdue and and when that happens, will be will be better served.
M Yeah, I think it's it's something has to happen, at least at least on the professional level. I think it's good for the like the regular play, but it's I don't I have less fun on the golf course now because of the ball.
Well, I'm somebody who loves to try different shots, and and uh, even though I've maybe executed the shot previously in my life, I'm not good enough to execute it on demand. But if I see a shot that that demands a faide, I want to try and hit a fade. Uh, you know. And I love working the ball, you know, right the left, left to right high low. Even if I'm not good enough to pull it off, it just makes golf that much more fun. But uh, you know, so getting back to some of those days would be
a good thing. I'll be very curious to see how the Masters and Augusta National fits into that equation. I think they have a golden opportunity. You know, there isn't a player on earth that's going to turn down an invitation to the Masters. And if they said, oh, by the way, in twenty eighteen, we're going to be playing with the tournament ball. You know, every pro is still going to show up and they're going to be excited
about it. So they hold I'll be curious to see their role and everything, because I think they've got the easiest opportunity to make something happen there.
Unfortunately, buying that land might be a bad you know, they might be adding length.
You know, sad well that adding length and planting trees seems to have been the model over the last thirty years. Hopefully they'll be uh the next thirty years might be a little different.
Yeah, so we'll get the final overrated underrateds here, I'm going to say green speeds and stimp readings overrated, underrated, overrated.
Certainly, I'm a big fan of greens with I like greens of contour or speeds that match the contour. Let's just put that way. A different speed for a different set of greens is probably the right answer. But this love affair with thirteen on the STEMP meter just makes means that greens need to get flatter and flatter and
more boring and more boring. Or if you've got greens of contour and you maintain them at thirteen, then they're unplayable and they'll fund and people get upset and want to change the green.
So it's like that, was it.
Nairn in Scotland has a sign that says, you know, we're on the windiest property on earth or green speeds are five to six, so just deal with it, you know.
It's just there's a lot of factors that go into it.
And then last one would be, uh, the great hazard as it.
Under, Yeah, so good, right.
Yeah, absolutely, I mean golf is supposed to be fun, and what's more fun than a great hazard?
Right? Oh yeah, I get I get a lot of ship because I love it so much, but.
It's so good.
Good story, good great stories come from the great hazard. Yeah, So the more the more great hazards, the more great stories.
It's such a it's a it's a fun design like it. You know, it is a forced carry for the higher handicap, but like one or two of those in a round is so good because it's so thrilling for them.
Well, I think you did touch on a good point there that it could be overdone. We don't we don't need we don't need it on eighteen holes. But uh uh, but the idea of it at a point or two in the round certainly certainly makes for great fun and great interest in my mind.
Yeah. Well, hey, thanks for coming on. Look forward to meeting next week at the Renaissance Cup. And uh, who.
Knows, there might be it might be a late night podcast done there.
You got to figure that out.
That that could be interesting. Yeah, interesting, Andy, Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity I tune in, tune in regularly and appreciate all that your tongue, and I know all the listeners to too, So keep it up, keep it up, keep up the good work.
Yeah, follow Jay on Twitter? What what is it is it?
At j uh at j blobby all.
Right, I'm I don't even know my own Twitter handle, so don't be offended. All right, have a good one and we'll see you in a couple.
Of days named in storms as may at some days