Jay Blasi and Brett Hochstein

I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.

Ball in a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Friday bride.

Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

We're here at the Seavil Golf Training Facility at Stanford University Varsity Golf.

Somebody just corrected me, So what the exact title is.

I've got a couple of architects going to have a lively discussion about golf courses that were built in a certain era and you know what to do with them, and then we're gonna get to some questions. But I'm joined by Jay Blasi, who's a second time guest, and Brett Hochstein with Brett Hochstein Design, Golf Design.

You got rid of the golf I did?

It's just a hocksteye design shorter, very good.

Little alliteration almost it's not an alliteration, just a little round.

I guess I'm off to hot start.

So for anybody that didn't get where we are, we're at the Stanford Golf Practice Facility and they've got a lengthy name.

That I've watched. So today we're gonna do a.

Podcast about, you know, kind of the Dark Ages of golf and the courses that we've got all over the place and kind of what to do with them, as as the kind of you're seeing a a condensing of golf where a lot of golf courses are closed, some good, some bad, and you know, there's certainly a lot of great courses, but there's also some that leave a lot to be desired with the architecture, the design, and overall

So you know, Jay, you want you want to kick it off.

Well, I think when we talk about the Dark Ages were often referring to the time, you know, you can pick a starting point, but somewhere maybe from the fifties to the nineties, or or more primarily from the fifties to the eighties, and oftentimes it'd be golf courses that for those of us who love Golden Age architecture and

Of earth moving, and whatnot.

Perhaps the other big thing is just due to advances in technology, whether that's and earth moving equipment and turf grass technology.

All of a sudden, these golf.

Courses started going to areas where golf wouldn't naturally occur, so swamps and deserts and mountain sides.

And sites that weren't naturally conducive.

So now all of a sudden, you're using you're moving lots of earthf you play a hole, then you get on your cart path and drive a quarter mile, and then you go play the next hole and whatnot. So for those of us who love those principles, that that period of time that we've referred to as the Dark Ages is one that we'd love to forget or do our best to undo.

Yeah.

And sort of reason that it got to that point was.

That we had all this new technology, big machines, advances in maintenance, an agronomy where we could be greener. They have faster skies, certain heights and caught and all that, and people got a really and error for these new features is they didn't have them before, and instead of doing the right things with.

It, such as Alistair McKenzie.

Always talked about the bulldozer and you know what great things could possibly do well, there really wasn't, due to say, the depression and war time and all that.

There's not much lineage or action from the.

Golden Age all the way to the guys picking it back up in the sixties, so there isn't necessarily that sort of thought to say.

Let's use this for good and for artistry and for you.

Know, making conditions that are fun versus just esthetic and pleasing. And that's kind of a direction it all went, and the way it was marketed and the way the public sort of made it up, I.

Guess I see.

I think the big one big shift that occurred as well is if you think back to the early nineteen hundreds.

When golf courses were created, typically It was a group of people getting together for the love of golf and they had a common interest, and they set out to build a golf course because they were interested in golf, and they'd go find an appropriate site. Typically they'd go serve for the right land that had good soils and was gently ruling. During this period we referred to as the Dark Age as some of that change and the purpose for building a.

Golf course change.

So now somebody has a housing development, so the golf course is really the engine to sell houses or vice. First, we're building the resort a hotel, so the golf course is the carrot to fill the hotel rooms. And when the focus or the reasoning behind the golf course existed and changed, some of the priorities changed as well.

In terms of the architecture.

It's interesting I'm reading the links by Routert Hunter and he talks about how the land for golf, like if a club doesn't didn't buy the appropriate amount of land, the land price.

Would go up so much after they built a course because then.

The housing would come in, and then you know, the model changed to where it was housing first, golf course second, which you know, detriment to the golf and you know, long term it might be a detriment to the house.

And also as we kind of saw with you know, the the you know, consolidation, Sorry happened, but I'm curious.

It's something that Brett touched on, was the stop and ideas, Like, not very often does an industry go through, like an almost twenty year period where ideas and the flow of ideas stop.

And it had to.

Be very crippling because you saw there's the no real connection. There are very few connections from architects in the fifties to Alistair McKenzie. You know, one would be Robert Trent Jones was connected to Stanley Thompson who was connected to Alistair McKenzie, and that'd be one, but there weren't many. Most of them spawned then from Robert Trent Jones, right, Yeah, for the most part.

You could also say Jack Flunning came from McKenzie, but his his mark was fairly limited.

I think I think the lineage point is a good one, and you know, relating to the depression and the war and and.

How that impacted things.

I would I may disagree that there was a stop in ideas, and I think maybe a priority is shifted if you look at golf courses built shortly after the war.

I think the guiding principle was functionality, you know, and you know, we're worried about costs and to how we build something just super efficiently as opposed to necessarily strategically.

So it may.

Not be the same idea, but I don't know that there was a completely total stop of ideas. And as we evolve into the sixties, seventies, and eighties, there were all sorts of ideas. Any many who love Golden Age golf might just not like those ideas, you know, the idea of adding lakes and adding waterfalls and adding flower beds and mounting those were ideas.

There's a rise in popularity of professional golf also, so that could be part of it where they started to think we need to really you know, the the great player all of a sudden was the forefront focus of golf, like Ben Hogan, you know, and how do you challenge a guy that? And it wasn't the right way to challenge but they thought, you know, lakes and making them go over, but it made it just inseparable for a regular player. So how many of these courses are still kind of out there and and and.

I think moving forward, what do you what can be done with with these golf courses as we look at you know, this architecture and golf is moving in a different.

Direction from these courses, and you.

Know they're going to need updates with you know, when irrigation systems come up.

Like what can we do with these? With these golf courses?

Well, the nonvotable answer is too many.

And I think I'd probably say for as far as public golf and the accessible golf goes.

It's the majority of the horses.

And I think that's really had a lot to do with the shaping of our golf culture in.

General in this country.

This is the focus on riding instead.

Of walking, keeping track of your store, and just why we played horses at the The pros are playing not necessarily thinking about your own game.

And what's the second Parliament?

And you know, what can be done with them? I shouldn't ask so many questions.

Can they be improved for you know, low costs or do they need to be you know, completely overhauled, Like.

What could you do with a you.

Know, a residential course that stay has only got you know, limited corridor space.

So that's that's the one where it's a big challenge that I was gonna say, it's really a spy site specific mm hmm. We need reference where it's really narrow corridors and the routing, which i'd say routing and greens contouring goes are the two most impactful parts of design. And when the routing is compromised with that limited, you're already really up against it. And so is the cost of going through and making each.

Individual whole, you know, interesting and compelling.

Is that going to make the course good enough and interesting enough to outweigh the costs.

I'm not totally sure. There are other examples though, where.

The housing doesn't be quite as limited or the land isn't limited. One example what thought off the top of my head was of course, called the Kyote Club in southeast Michigan that I grew up nearby. It was built the late nineties. It's got, you know, all the mounding, the pretty.

Generic bunkering, not a lot of interest. I mean, you can find yourself on hold twelve.

And be like, I'm kind of bored.

I should go stop the cart rating and get a beer.

But it's on a pretty nice gentle piece.

Of ground, mix of land. It's half open, half kind of in the woods, so.

You can kind of go in and out of it.

That's the kind of example where you know, you could easily fill some ponds, maybe rerouted, rebuild all the greens and bunkers, and come up with something pretty interesting for not that exorbit of a cost.

I think that we've touched up a little bit on some of the issues that are in play. And Brett made a comment earlier which I think is critical for everybody to understand, and that is that as it relates to golf and golf courses, it's one hundred percent site specific. So the right solution at eve, even in the same market,

To survive the long term.

Just like your house, you need to reinvest and so the irrigation system oftentimes needs to be redone.

That's your biggest single investment.

So if and when it's time to redo the irrigation system, that's a great time to look at is there anything else that we should be doing well? Is now the time to do bunkers and greens or could change anything else around.

And if you have a situation where you have a great piece of.

Ground, but the layout that's on it just isn't very special, doesn't take advantage of the features very well, the natural features of the land, and it's due for infrastructure investment, that's the.

Right time to get in and take a new look and see could we.

Serve the community better by creating something that relates and it's more fun. The other thing is we know that contraction is going to occur, so there might be an opportunity in a number of places where you've got eighteen twenty seven holes now that they end up being better served as a nine.

Hole facility or a twelve hole facility, something.

Different, where maybe you take the good land and reserve it for golf and the other can become housing, or it can become a park or open space.

Or something else. And soccer field you can kill two birds with one stone. Mm. That's I mean, I think that's the thing.

I more I've gotten into this, the more I've traveled, is like, you know, the dearth of bad options for the public versus good options is it's it's frightening, Like you know, like you go to I go to a city, like I play in Chicago, and like there's really only like five public golf courses that I would like actually enjoy going playing, and I play those five all the time.

When I go play in public golfing.

But like, you know, so many of them I've once I've seen about eight holes.

I'm like, get me out of there.

I don't want I don't want to do this, And so many of them are constricted by like I mean, like car paths always stick out to me, Like it's just like it's hard to almost take a.

Photo without getting car path in it. Some of these places they cut down in middle of the fairway, But where would.

You say, you know, and I know it's all site specific, but is it inside fifty yards?

If you had a limited budget.

Where you could you do the most, you know, create the most interest for the most bang for your buck. Say somebody had, you know, budget to do a little bit of work, where would you focus.

The most around the green? That's because that is where.

A lot of these golf courses during that period of time are very more dimensional. You're nine times out of ten it's an aerial shot. If you miss the green, you're punished.

You're either in rough or a bunker, and in those positions your only shot out is a sandwich. Right, So your approach shot is repetitive all through the entire and then your recovery shot is repetitive.

So by simply redoing green complexes, you can introduce strategy.

You can introduce variety.

You can have shots that you can land the ball short and feed the ball into the green, and you can feed it in from the side, or you can have a backstaff.

You can have short grass around the greens.

And now you can use you know, the potter all the way up to a hybrid and everything in between.

So you can add so much more strategy there. So if you only had one place to spend your money, that's it.

To Brett's point earlier, even that might not cross the threshold if the routing is totally screwed up and you've got a whole where you play out two hundred and eighty yards and then turn right and got a hundred.

Degree ankle and go the wrong way, you know, but the bang for your bucks at the green complex, am Lie Brett.

What do you think are some you know, to go along with like greens, but what are some other like of the most important design features that create like, you know, kind of like a sustainable golf model and playable you know, obviously fun, but like outside of you know, interesting greens, what would you say are some of the you know, most important parts of design to creating a place that's really fun to play for the public and you know you can get people around and that kind of.

I think, well, yeah, definitely of the greens, and then going backwards from there, creating more width is.

Uh is one way to do it.

And less uh sort of a maintain rough, not not a big.

Family maintained rough.

Really I'd rather just be more short grass makes it more interesting and uh, you know it's a the point you bring up, it'll uh helps get people around faster.

It helps people enjoy the game a bit more.

And even if they're not necessarily thinking about which side and a fair way to be on the game an advantage.

You know, they're they're getting.

Around and they're having a good time as opposed to happing it out under a tree, you.

Know some deep.

Whine or rough or whatever.

Thinking about bunkers in the interesting way is.

Just that they're.

Or the mid handicapper making them sort of think and taking on challenge is if you step a bottle of tea and you go to address the ball, then you kind of step back and think, what the way second should I be doing this? I think that's a great way to engage the golfer, make a you have fun.

In my opinion, it's like, yeah, I think it's so important always.

To you know, not forget like the thrill of golfer. Everybody, you know, like the high handicap her still wants to feel the challenge of taking it over a bunker and you know it's a it's but then you also have to weigh that with like challenging.

And that's like, I think placement a bunker. How do you guys go about placing bunkers?

Because I've read where some architects do it formulatively, and it's like, you know, it's two hundred and eighty yards, We're going to put a bunker right here, and some guys just throw them out there or want to say, I just put them where it shouldn't be.

You know, well, I wanted to follow up or piggyback on what you guys were just talking about earlier in terms of, you know, still providing a challenge to somebody, but can you do it.

In a in a way that is more sustainable.

So if you look at many of those golf courses built during that period of time, you might have a cluster of five or six bunkers all in one grouping in a landing area, right, and then you look at it. One simple thing is to say, okay, well, of that giant, you know, sixty yard area that's all sand and broken up into.

Six bunkers, there's only a five yard area that's actually impact in.

The strategy of the whole. If you can get rid.

Of the other stuff, now you've simplified the maintenance practices you've maintained or enhanced the actual strategic value of it. So those are some of the little things you can go look at and existing golf course and.

Say, hey, these are ways that we can improve it for everyday play.

Of course in Chicago did that They took out like it's called harbor side.

They took out like an un I mean, they removed probably about sixty percent of the bumpers.

I think if you if you were to do an inventory of golf courses built in the nineteen eighties, you could probably reduce the sand on ninety percent of those courses by at least fifty percent without having negative without having a negative impact on strategy, and maybe having a positive impact on strategy well.

And pace of play, oh right, ganging around that's more sustainable.

You can get more rounds out, you know, people are even playing more when they play faster. And then also the maintenance side of things.

I was at BALLI Neil and they have them one point five acre Punny Green, and I was trying to do the maintenance in my head of that and it was an astounding number robots.

Yeah, robot we need grow, do they have they're coming. I don't know if they have them at Ballily Neil. I know that there are facilities that are starting to use them. They're on their way. Google should start. They probably did it thirty years ago. Yeah, we just didn't know about it. We've had that for ueresh.

To your to your point on bunker placement again, I think it's site specific, an architects specific as to how they come about. If you've got a great piece of land that has natural features and natural movement in the land, many times bunkers can evolve based on that natural movement.

It's just kind of peeling back whatever vegetation is there and highlighting it in terms of the whole and strategy of the whole. The closer you get to the green probably the more the placement of the bunker is is something that's actually thought out or or designed or or.

Crafted as opposed to just finding it naturally. But I think the days of formulaic bunkering and laying them out at two AD are hopefully past us.

Yeah.

I don't think following any formula and golf design is a good idea.

I think you just always have an open mind to every single situation.

Variety.

Yeah, that's what keeps people coming back over and over again and throughout the course of a round. If you can offer different challenges, different opportunities for excitement, different opportunities for escape, Those are u those are the things that get people excited and keep them coming back.

So let's say, you know, let's move to a more positive topic.

We've got a lot of We've got a lot of Twitter questions, so I figure we'll do some we'll do some overrated, underrated, everybody's favorite podcast segment, and we'll do some questions.

So I fired this off a.

Few minutes ago. So this is so how much This is a good question from Nate Mowery.

How much time planning going to deciding to grasses and strains for a golf course.

When you're building, it's certainly something that's fought out, and typically it's a team effort. Obviously, if if it's an existing facility, you're working with the existing superintendent and their team, and then they're usually leaning on agronomous or university researchers that are helping them.

So in a perfect world, you can do that a couple.

Of seasons in advance, where you could actually do test plots on your own facility. You know, it's one thing to do to check out test plots.

Somewhere else, but if you can do it on your own property, that's always the best advantage. So I think the simple answer is the greater lead time you can have, the better chances for success that you'll have, and the more testing and trials that you can do, the better chancel.

Yeah.

I mean, I know I've had my own preferences.

Going into something that's generally whatever is going to be play the furthest.

And fastest, while also you know, not being a.

Total burdener expert costs and maytain and typically.

Those two things you know going in anyway, So it's just a.

Matter of finding out if that fits within the client's budget and you know their preferences and with the superintendent is.

Going to be maintaining it.

And I've got it at a turf background myself, so I've got, you know, a little bit of able to discuss it and more to which I think helps.

And you know, I don't working mad and so I understand it. It's uh like like it to be a.

Two way thing between the superintendent and you know, architect or shape or whoever's out there.

Yeah, I think that collaboration helps. Probably with the whole projects so important, it's critical, I'd say. I imagine there's like an ownership stake that the that the more you can get the club or course is staff involved helps after.

Right, Yeah, anytime you can get buy in from the whole team, you know, the idea of coming up with one common vision.

Right, that we're always working towards, and there might be different.

Ways to get there, But as long as the vision is the vision and that's what we're all working towards, then that's a recipe for success.

So we got to Bay Area resident.

As we learned this morning, it takes quite a long time to get around the bay.

What's the most underrated? This is from counter Doherty.

We'll do most underrated Bay Area, of course, one public, one private.

Good question.

If I could stretch the Bay Area all the way up into just north of Nat County, I would.

Say at the Springs at the Springs nine to will.

All properly redone by Dover Renaissance guys, I don't know about ten or fifteen years ago, and it's just it's really interesting golf. Get some neat greetings, out there. It moves around property in really great way. It's in and out of certain aspects of it, and it's just really it fits the site context the.

Area so well. They they they're card barn is an.

Old refurbished uh barn from you know the property whenever it's a cat ranch or whatever it was, and just there's that sort of details.

But this is a really special place.

Private of course was pride and out well, So I'll get out of there when when you're out in the wine country with the life, you know, set.

Up wine and setting set up.

Yeah, I know.

That's a that's a good advice.

I need to get up there. It's hopefully it's okay with all the piers and everything.

So I think they got away with it. The drive out there probably kind of depressing.

Yeah, from a private club standpoint, I don't really know that it's actually under rated or off the.

Radar, But in my mind I underrated is metal.

Club and and Sean Tully that super up there, just continues to.

Help the golf course.

Evolve, and Mike Degrees has done a good job up there, and so that's continuing to just kind of keep evolving and just keeps getting better and better and better with with time.

And it's a good, pretty special place when, of course gets better over the years.

You know, so often when you see that it happened where if the fairways get it narrower, the.

Grads gets fall a right, Yeah, are architecturally minded?

Is superintense or is there their treasure? It's all right, overrated, underrated.

The Olympic Club from Connor also.

Curious hot top uh, great club, great membership, overrated.

All right, we'll go with overrated.

Underrated from Josh Roby Double dog Leg par five, I'm.

Well, I'm gonna throw a copy on in there.

So so long as you can you can see and and you can play the angles, I'll say underrated. If there's trees, you know, if you're if it's a dog leg left and gotta play around trees, and then the second half goes around trees to the right, so you really can't see your maneuver it, then I'll say overrated.

So it's both.

That's I was trying to figure out how.

I want to say that, and that's pretty much it be able to actually take.

On the that's.

That's it's kind of like that fourth hole at Bethpage you know, but there aren't many in the way of the whole trees. Yeah, it's pretty pretty, it's pretty cool, pretty pretty.

It's terrible, all.

Right, Philip Johnson, Overrated under rated the switchback call Brett, you gotta go first this one.

By switchback, are you referring to.

Like I think I think I think it's like a fade t shot, draw second shot or a draw t shot.

That's what I thought you were actually going like reverse angle.

Also started thinking about like.

Switch that all the way down affair with it.

I'm thinking more more conventional, like where something calls for one shot shape, you know, kind of the whole the whole changes.

In terms of underrated underd I think that's a cool little it's not christ any.

Time you get anytime you can introduce angles, and it's usually a byproduct of having with.

You know, we've already touched on with over and over again. Today.

If you can, if you can have with and take advantage of angles, that creates compelling golf and encouraging Shotshe ball's gotta gonna mean we gotta change.

The ball to do that just goes right down. Curious.

Uh, this is something I've actually wondered it's about Olympic Club.

You know they have the fairways historically. You know that every body season when they host the tournament that they'll move. They'll dog like one way, but the slope goes the opposite way. What do you what are you guys thoughts on on fairways like that? Like, I don't know what the terminology is.

Reverse camera. Yeah, that's reverse camera. I knew it was reversed something, you know. I'd say if.

I mean just going back to the whole variety thing, if you used every once in a while, it can.

Be you know, a good thing and doing it eighteen times in a row.

I don't know if that's interesting or fun.

I'm not saying that is that, but done.

Right, Yeah, I'd say it's good to a spring left.

Once in a while. I would make two points for everyday golfers.

I would say it works far better if the whole moves left to right and the land.

Is moving right to left.

Is because nine percent of golfers fade or slice the ball, so they're hitting into the slope, so it becomes more playable.

So that'd be one point.

I would echo Brettsen that when done in moderation or as a change of pace.

It's interesting.

The other caveat I put on it is if there's enough room to actually let the ball run out. So a twenty yard wide fairway and a reverse camber, to me, is not very compelling because you're just going to end up in the rough all the time. If you actually have enough space to let the ball run out and let it go run seventy yards away, then it's kind of interesting because now you're encouraging people to hug the right side.

If they bail out and they missed, they still have a shot, but now it's much longer.

So it can it can add to the strategy or just a horrible angle.

Yeah, and you're going back to shot and you're encouraging getting a draw or fade into that sot to try and hold it out there, which is interesting.

I think it's no.

I think that's really I It stimulates, you know, the thought process, that's the key for thinking.

That's all right, we've got here's a good Drew Nedzinski. What are some modern design features.

We've talked about a few of them, but we'll get you each get one modern design.

Features that we're going to see more and more with newer courses. Maybe they're like newer features that you're seeing pop up and designed that you think should be used more. I'm adapting this question. I don't know, Shue, I don't know so much. I don't necessarily think it's so much new features.

It's just kind of embracing the past, and it all relates back to kind of sustainable golf.

We've touched on it many.

Yeah before short grass hunters, Jay overrated, underrated.

Offensive lineman s wearing touchdowns.

Very underrated.

That was it was brilliant because it was a backyard backwards past. It was actually a lateral perfectly executed. Jay is a big Badgers fan. Wiscons the badders, so you know, and we took down the Alna. They took down my line thanks to an offensive lineman touchdown. He ran for fifteen yards bene fourteen.

Yeah, anytime I don't think you can talk, you know, kind of like golf, anytime you can get the ball rolling is a good thing. I think anytime in football you can get a big man running with the ball underrated.

Somebody has one. Gravity has its advantages. All right, we'll do uh, we'll do one more. We're kind of amount of time Crunch because of the traffic here. Overrated, underrated, Poeanna Greens, overrated.

In general, obraded in general.

Yeah, what about just embracing a poe once you get you feel again it's all sites specific.

I mean, we sound like a broken record when it comes to.

That, but uh yeah, I mean there's no reason that Poe Greens can't be a great surface.

But on balance, you don't see people striving for it off the bat in general, and there the.

Surface itself as far.

As going ball, they can be really great, but it almost always they're gonna be soften.

Yeah, you overly receptive, and.

It's just.

That's not as interesting as to have to think about green that's gonna bounce and rule, and.

You really have to think about where you're gonna land instead, and you can achieve.

That better with Ben.

And in most cases you can where there's poet and you can you can manage Ben.

It's yeah, that's it is it is it wingfoot or one of the courses out.

He's like buys the poem green into people try and rip out or ripping out there, We'll take it.

They buy it.

Well, I think the other thing to know about Poe is there's you know, I know just enough about grass to be tangerous.

But my understanding is there's so many different strains and lines of it. So when you when you when you use that blanket phrase, the poem that you're talking about.

In Pennsylvania is different than the poe that you're talking about in California.

And yeah, well, I mean there's a reason they're doing that because it's it's really a valuab.

As cool as evolved. What you said, you're over eighty years, one hundred years, and you're that's.

Not gonna grow in the nursery.

So of course it has those types of greens, and you're buying down the.

Road and it's doing a bunch of greens expansions and it doesn't have a big enough nursery.

They could really use that.

Yeah, to help marry up with the current breeds.

That's an interesting point. I didn't never think about it as like green expansion.

When you have best tough Well, yeah, if you're expanding greens and you go through the whole process and you're doing all the construction, you see him pull the sod off and send it to the side.

If you do the green expansion, when you put that side back, you haven't covered the whole green.

You still kind of cover the new wings and everything. So what's the best and most efficient way to make that work. I'm gonna just start a sod farm, you and Greg site. Yeah, just do a bunch of them all throughout the country and you're just gonna.

Be buying up little plasland.

You you're evolving into Greg Norman. You can have sod farms and a vineyard. You can have it all. All right. Well, thanks for coming it on.

I appreciate that your guys's time.

Sorry it was a little truncated, but is that a clear People enjoy the discussion, appreciate the opportunity here

M