Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is powered by tdm or Trade. Every stroke counts on the scorecard and every penny counts in the market. That's why tdam ror Trade is committed to straightforward pricing with no surprises, so you're free to swing with confidence. Visit tdomritrade dot com slash Fried Egg member SIPC. We are back with another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Today's episode is part two of our most recent conversation with up and coming golf architect Jaeger Kovich.
So if you missed part one, check it out. It was released last week.
We talked a ton about how Yaeger got into the profession of golf architecture, playing golf around New York and aw Tilling cast. In this edition, we go over Yaeger's Mount Rushmore, We bring back Overrated, Underrated. There's all kinds of good stuff in this half of the podcast. Really appreciate the time from Yaeger. He also has been writing a ton for the website. Him and Clyde Johnson have been doing the Eclectic eighteen of the UK. Highly recommend
checking it out. This week we will be hitting hole sixteen. So if you haven't read any of them, you got a lot of reading ahead and they do a really great job breaking down each hole one through eighteen, all different holes from different golf courses around the UK. So definitely check that out on the website, Thefrida Egg dot com.
And here's part two of jaeger Kovid I.
Miss the green for example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a.
Brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida Egg, Frida egg Egg Frida egg, bride egg Lie.
I'm about ready to run.
Off of the hump course.
We've talked Telling hast and we've talked Tom Simpson. Yeah, I'm assuming those two would be on.
Your Mount Rushmore.
Four guys, if you had to do four, it would be the other two. If you I don't want to put either of those guys on, if you don't think they deserve to be on there.
Uh, I don't know. I guess this is I love sports talk radio, and this is like the classic you know, Mount Mount Rushmore question.
Mount Rushmore. It's it's I asked it to so many people.
I just I'd probably put Tom on there his influence with the writing and and just not just his golf courses, which the portfolio turtainly speaks for itself and probably belongs on there just because of that. But I think the impact and that with the the books, both the Anatomy and the Conventional guid and just showing people were trying
to the modern day. Yeah, sort of. It just shows you how how many great golf courses there are around the world that people didn't really know about, and you know, people are going all over the place to see them because you know, he put these places on the sort of map. Again, I think that impact that way is is pretty enormous. Plus, you know, and.
Writing about restoration like and like how many clubs did he write like this could be great if it was restored, like and then it led those clubs to actually do something.
Mm hmmm, we're just the The Anatomy too, is just you know, it's just a perfect book to give to like your green chair or something like that. Right, it's like one on one. It's you know, not the super old English like the old guys, but it's it's in very easy to understand, well, at least I think so.
But I think even the just a guy that's really interested in the golf can probably read that architectural book, and I mean learn a gazillion things from it too, even though if they don't understand everything, there'll be parts they take and then they'll play more and more, and if you pick it up five years later, you probably learn something totally new too.
So yeah, I.
Always recommend that or Shackleford's Grounds for Golf. Okay, yeah, I actually love the Little Red Book too.
That was neat. It's really easy for people with like ad D like me.
Or if you grew up on golf cob baalist, I'm like, yeah, I remember that thread. I remember yeah too, right, that's how I took it out reply those are good too. He shockingly likes like emojis on there too, which is kind of funny.
It's kind of fun noil Core likes emojis too.
Yeah, like who guy doesn't have email, but he loves the text is pretty funny.
It is.
It is funny. It's it's really funny. It doesn't even know how to use the Internet, but.
It's funny too because he's like, you know the last He's like hey, hi here, this is like do you like? He's like, are you comfortable texting? I'm like, I'm thirty three, man, like, yeah, I can do this. But there there were a while. Uh, I mean he's a candidate too for sure, right, I don't know. I mean Mackenzie would probably be on there with the Continental stuff just all over the globe. That's a pretty important one too. How many is that? That's is that four? If we have Tilly on there?
Are you booting Tilly?
I don't know.
I don't you can don't feel like you have to have him on there.
Well we'll leave it for now. I mean you could put I have a total fascination with Walter Travis courses as well. He would probably be a candidate for me. I probably wouldn't have Ross over Tilly. I think Tilly's best work is sort of a step of like the whole chunk of that a level. Tilly stuff I think is a little over that that sort of class from Ross. I think Ross has some like a top three or five, which you are up there, but after that it's kind
of you know that that sort of perfect. Every every community has to have one of those Donald Ross courses, which is awesome, right. The volume that's.
The tricky thing to weigh, is like the prolificness, but.
It's important, and you know, I guess this is a good question for you. I mean, you could questionably have you know, Trent Jones on there just because of what he did business wise to the thing. I mean, you could have it all. M hmm, exactly. That was the next one from the UK, or I mean old Tom or like those you know, the guys that were just finding the like, you know, if you wanted to go with that, Old Tom's resume is pretty damn good too, right.
So would you.
Let's take like Tom Simpson career mhm? Or I don't nobody's ever going to be Donald Ross, but like say, say you did instead of what Tom Sims's twenty courses something like that. George Thomas would be another one that's in that same bucket.
There's a guy that you know, there's another candidate for you.
But yeah, would you rather have like that type of career where or or a like three times as many but not have as good the great ones, like not have as many great ones all?
Really, you know, I'm just trying to have a career.
I understand that, but you know, I'm just curious. I never really thought, I.
It's such a different business now it is. You know, there's there's nobody. I can't see any scenario where anybody's going to have anything close to that, right, So in scaled reality, you know, if if anyone you know, start the clocks now does like forty or fifty courses in their career, it's going to be insane, right, depends a lot, it is, you know, even if like you know, like we get you know, it's changed in the last five years.
But historically if you look at say it like Gills, like Gill, he didn't he doesn't have like the world's longest list of new courses. Certainly the last five ten years would probably you know, you it's fresher in your minds the new things, and they're prevalent and they're all awesome, but it's the business has changed, and it took years and years and years of great renovation, restoration and the odd really cool new courses he built. But to get
to that point, it's so hard to tell. Now, I'd be I'm just hoping to do one, honestly, it would be it would be amazing to just do one right now, and I'm probably not even gonna you know, who knows what that property is going to be. Like, so it's impossible.
I think it because like this is a conversation that you have about tour golfers, like would you rather be the guy that has, like, you know, the twenty five year career but doesn't win a ton or a guy that wins you know, a lot, but a shorter career, like you know, it's like that that it's a crazy thing because like I don't know, that's that's kind of what spurned my thought.
Could could like Clayton Kershaw, right, you did the best renovation restorations of all time, but when you get the new stuff, it just doesn't add up and it doesn't translate, you know, right, Sorry Shackleford.
That's a good. That's a good. I like that. Yeah, Clayton kershaw it's a yeah. I don't know, it's a I agree because.
Then I just I just don't want to be the Mets or the Cup true, right.
The cups are worse, but we've been good lately.
Yeah, So it's I yeah, in your position, you get getting the first one is the toughest thing.
Yeah, And then after that it feels like getting the second one because so you're not just the you know one time, you know, you got lucky one time, you know you can you did something, you did something good, good enough that someone wants to work, you know, wants to use you. We get right, that's okay, It wasn't fluke kind of thing. You know at supplants, you know, anyone can get lucky ones. I guess it's.
It's the development world too.
It's it's so hard at this point.
I think developers that the you know, they're in this position where they almost feel like there's not too much work for the top guys, so like they're always available, and they think like, oh, why wouldn't we not? Why would we Like there's no risk in hiring you know, Gil Tom or Bill, you know Bill, like you're.
Getting the highest quality stuff every time, and.
There's just no there's no a smart, safe choice.
But you know, when Mike Kaiser changed and everything when he hired David Kidd, David Kidd was an extremely risky hire. And it's it's just a fascinating thing because at that time there was so much development going on that you could well, like Fasio is going to be so busy that this wouldn't he wouldn't spend a ton of time here, like and that's not the case right now, which is a very interesting thing.
For the uh we were talking about that earlier with the restoration stuff and the consulting. Right, you know, imagine being twenty seven and being hired at the at piping Rock, right, you know, it's uh cool, awesome, all right, Yeah, we can do that, and that doesn't happen anymore, uh, you know,
it not to someone sort of that unproven. Even then it takes a lot, you know, a lot more experience, and you know, it's cool because it lets you know, you know, I know, I can go look for things with like a huge amount of potential and try to
you know that, right. That's the thing is you kind of like look to make a little bit of that sort of dent by taking something that could be really awesome and showing people that because it's the stuff that's really close, you know, it's probably someone's already working there at this point. Yeah, the stuff that everybody's heard of, it's already been restored exactly for the most part, there's
still some that need it. I'll tell you where you you know, the Wisconsin, so many courses up there just are desperate need of tree removal. There's pointing around here too. It's just like what you were talking about, Earl's a lot more expensive to get out here.
Yeah take the trees out.
Yeah yeah.
How much nicer is it working at home as opposed to it's pretty sweet?
It really doesn't happen very often, but it's it's it's a most weird a little bit because it's like there's there's other things going on at home, and when you're on the road, like you can be really laser focused, right, there's no there's nothing else to do at some of these places, and you're just there with the crew and the guys, and all you're doing is talking about golf and that project and how to make that better and better and all that stuff, and you're taking in that culture.
But when you're at home, it's it. You know, certainly, you know, having a fiance and someone to like come like at home, that's not it doesn't know what's going on. It's it makes it a little bit different, But there's nothing better than sleeping in your own own bed. I end up being so many for staying home. Well, it's tough because I can get to Long Island in the morning.
When I leave it like you know, five am, I get out there in fifty minutes, but it might take two hours plus and traffic to get back all the way across to We've just on the other side of the city in Jersey, and it's like, you know, that makes you think, like occasionally it might be good to stay out here and you kind of half and half, I guess is kind of what I did at the with the Creek, which is again it's like fifty minutes in the morning, but it can be if you want
to leave before seven pm, it's going to take you two plus hours. So it's you know, even it's not even a home game sometimes when it feels like it should be.
What what project?
I imagine that you were just you just alluded to it with talking golf with the other guys you're working with, Like what project sticks out? Like where when did you have the most fun time after work or during and after work where you go you're done and you just talk, talk shop and talk market.
The ones that stick out the most or gismoal River and that was like your second one, that was the first one, first construction with you were an in Renaissance. Yeah, there was a group of like ten of us right out there. That and that we're pretty much trapped, right, So you're when you're in a brack, there's no place there. We're all eating three meals together every day, we're all sleeping in rooms like right next to each other. You're working together all day long. That's that's kind of that's
just what it is. Obviously there's more talk than just golf, but knowing me, it probably was only golf, especially if you.
Had ten are still in architecture.
I think we did this on the other one, so obviously, right, So obviously Tom Blake and Brian and Schneider, right, those are obvious. Jonathan Reester, who was out there a bit with us, is still he still does uh some work, I believe, although I think he just went back to school. So who else? Yeah, Blake Clyde for sure, Zach Party for sure, Jeff Stein for sure, Brett Hakstein, Uh, Ryan Johns was working at bel Air right he who else? I haven't kept too much in touch with like Connor Cummings,
but I've heard at points. I think he's worked with Trip at least he's from Oklahoma. I don't know if there's anybody else currently, like they were still in for a while at least if they weren't James Byrd, I guess and uh Matt Hunter some of the other names that popped into my mind. If I might be forgetting someone obvious, but I just it's a while a go, but it's I mean, it was that was a that was a awesome time and learning experience. It was a
crash course in minimalism, but the same time too. Vineyard Golf Club, my first project with gil Well was was great. I spent a lot of time there with Kyle friends. That's where you know, three months with him talking architecture all the time. I and that's all we're ever going to talk about together.
You know, when Kyle calls you, it's gonna be like an hour.
And a half and he's driving and you're just worried he's gonna total his car on another animal at the same time, and I know he's driving with two feet as well, which is just so dangerous, but he thinks he's the world's greatest driver.
Man.
He's gonna kill me for saying all this, but it'll be funny, we said, I didn't get him as bad as Wagner got him on some of the other ones. Even in France. With Neil, I was telling you earlier when we're walking around he's he's awesome. He's one of the most talented people in the business and loves it and we are a really great team on site. We have a lot of similar just views on life, and it was we had an awesome time building golf and taken in the French lifestyle this year. That was a place.
It was hot though.
Yes they the French do not do air conditioning very well. But if you can get a the fans situation sorted, get a sleep on the bottom floor of the house, and a lot of rose, I think is the key. Really, it's it's a.
Far worse when you're talking shop with other guys. You know, they're you're kind of like teammates when you're doing these projects. But then in the future you guys are hopefully you know, going to go on and build your own courses and not all be working together all the time. Like are you do you have ideas that you like, can't tell you you can't like in your head?
I yeah, I think for sure. I absolutely, I'm there's everybody's got their own little secret move or something, you know, you like, yeah, of course, I I maybe it just depends on how much rose is flowing at the time as to what comes out at when. But you know, they're all just ideas, right, and most of the ideas and this stuff have probably been they're probably coming from somewhere being recycled or inspired by something else anyway, So you know, we'll see. I think there's obviously like a
big thing about you know, what's next. Right, We've been on this minimum, you know, so I.
Think there's a there's a.
Oh yeah, so you know, I I certainly have ideas about what that could be. I think there's a lot of stuff with the way some of the like crazy technology stuff and the uh tools we have to do these these these you know, super high end jobs. Now.
I think there's so, you know, with the bunker liners, all these sorts of different drainage stuff to sort of take what we have equipment wise and sort of rejigger some of the form and function stuff and try to make the I mean, you're gonna make We'll give the bunkers today, Like it's like perfection, right, But at the same time, it's really easy to almost if you're a good player, to hit some of that super high spinny shots out of those you know, the billy bunker stuff. Right.
It almost makes it more moist and the sand is firmer, So a really good player can get down and like create a lot of spin. It almost makes it easier for them. So how to take sort of react to that, right, because I think is sort of where mine go my mind goes. But then I also think too about like
you know, going more and the more urban stuff. Right, certainly I live around here in the big cities transforming sort of more urban golf courses that or you know, right on the outskirts that doing more sort of small format things, and how we can just sort of, you know, go about the small format stuff a little different. The
reversible stuff is really cool. The project we're doing it at Edgar Town with the it's a nine hole course, but we're building a second green very much in that sort of Japanese style, so it can they have the room for it, so they get two holes with only one fairway, right, it's two greens and two approaches, but everything else is shared, so you know, that's sort of two courses in one thing. You might get in one way at the loop you get a little bit different there.
You know. So I think nine holes is the right amount of golf for.
A lot of people. For me, thirty six is barely enough in a day.
So but I'm saying like in terms of like a working professional, because nine you can like squeeze in right, or four you can squeeze in yep. I think that's the best benefit of being a member at a country club is the ability to go play four holes versus.
I proposed something recently where there was what was it, you and Chackleford, we're talking about it, and I was like, man, you guys told my idea because I had this this routing for redoing. You know, it was a proposed rerouting for something. I was like, well, this place wants to be like super family friendly. They have a residential component
to it. I was like, well, if you could kind of reverse some of this, all of a sudden, you could have a loop of four holes, a loop of five holes, and a loop of nine all at the same time. So it's giving the country club that, like the starter's a lot more places to send people out. You know, if it's the wife and the kids and you bought one of their like two hundred and fifty homes right next door, you could go out real easy
in the evenings. When you get home. If the wife is you know, just learning and even nines maybe a little bit too much at times, it's perfect if you've got the kids that are just learning. You know, that's and you come right back and so it's easy function. You know, it's tough on the routing to always make it work and come back to the clubhouse and stuff
like that. But I think that's like if you want to talk about like family, family stuff and things like that, you could potentially do things like that and make it more. You know, you could sell four hole loops, five hole loops and make more more money out of that.
Right, I was thinking about this.
So the way that happened was it was a twenty seven hole golf course being downsized to eighteen. So I was like, well, how do you tell these guys that you're not going to lose revenue. So that's how it occurred to me like that, and I was screaming at the pub when you guys were talking like you stole my damn idea. Sorry, yeah, sorry, first time, long time.
I think about a lot of stuff.
See the same.
So I want a public course to do this where you have to have the routing right, but you could have like a three hole league, a six hole league, and a nine hole league and the nine hole the nine hole league starts at five, the six hole league starts at like you know, five forty, and the three
hole league starts at six fifteen. And it all depends on when you get off work, like when you can get off work and you go and you play and everybody then finishes at the same time, and you it has to you have to have the routing right spots, but you could adapt this. But then everybody together and you have like drinks afterwards, and it's well, I couldn't get out of work, so I couldn't get out of work in time for the nine hole er, so I.
Did the three hole but then you got to build the putting course. But you know right outside too, when you get the fire pit and you just keep it going with the drinks, it's perfect. Man.
There's there's a place that's getting that I went in.
I started thinking about this from it, and they have a putting course.
Right, Yes, there you go.
It's funny you said that, because that's exactly what they're doing. It's lock a bell up in Wisconsin.
Awesome.
It's a but.
But yeah, they have a they have a three hole loop, a six hole loop potential, and a nine hole loop.
It's there, you go.
It's neat.
I don't know, it's but that's a but. Uh yeah, sorry, I was rabbit rabbit Hole City exactly exactly. I mean, when you were a kid, you just start sketching golf holes, I imagine at some.
Point, uh, at some point. Yes, I have a sketch book at home Whistle with like in them holes. Sometimes it's like, you know, I would just go on the early stages of Google Earth or whatever and just trace something into it and then draw over top of that, or old yardage books. I have a massive yardage book collection, So some of that sort of stuff. Trying to you know, create sort of your own sort of templates or whatever as a kid was kind of fun, I guess. I
mean that was more probably high school. I probably started doing that a little bit. But when I was really I was drawing, honestly, I was drawing like I was the first thing I ever wanted to do when life was being NHL goalie. So I have sketch books more with like custom goalie pads setups than I do with golf courses. But it quickly changed. As you can tell, it's one track mind.
Here now for a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by be Dratty. Be Dratty make some of the best golf clothes on the market. They make the best cotton is Pima Peruvian cotton, and there's no better place to have this soft, luxurious cotton then in your underwear. They make boxers, so I would definitely check out the Richard Boxer. I mean, there's nothing better than a great shirt from B Dratty. It's so comfortable.
I get people talking about it all the time. They're like, oh God, these shirts are so comfortable. Well imagine that in your underwear. I mean, life's too short to wear uncomfortable underwear. So Richard boxers you can get those on bdradty dot com. They come in all different types of colors.
You know.
My biggest problem is is Missus Friday will steal them to sleep in them. I mean, maybe this is TMI, but highly recommend the Richard Boxer available on bdradty dot com.
And now we will go back to yaeger Kovich.
Yeah, you travel, you play a ton of golf and see a lot of golf courses. Not you might not play as much as sea courses.
I play a lot. Yeah you're not all the time, but yeah, I'm addicted.
How do you go about figuring out where you're going to see stuff? Like? What could? What could? The listener that's.
Well, well, just say just say you're going somewhere you haven't been, Like, what's the first first thing you're doing?
I don't know.
But see, I'm always starting off by going someplace for work, right, I'm always So if you're working in Pinehurst, you're obviously you know I wanted to go. You know, I had to go to Roaring Gap finally, you know old Town, Uh, Salisbury, you know that sort of.
There's so many courses in North Carolina.
Yeah. So, but if you know in Nebraska, you know you're you can you can drive to Prairie Dunes, you can drive north to Sutton Bay. I guess you can go see all of the cool mom and pop stuff in Nebraska. The little nine hole sandhole courses are awesome. I don't know, but it's it's just like you're I was starting from somewhere, and so I know a lot of it's you know, we're around here. So one thing I've been trying to do at home is slowly, you know, I've I've have lists of courses I want to see
that compile or whatever. So sometimes it's listed by state by state. Sometimes it's like list of courses by that architect that I want to see. So I want to see I'm trying to see as many or all of the tilling half stuff really. But same thing with Walter Travis, because he certainly did a lot of work near in my part of the country, and I'm just he's incredible and maybe the most underrated of the American based guys. I want call him Americans not but.
He did all his work in America.
Yeah, yeah, so and then Emmett as well. I'm trying to see kind of all of his stuff as well. Matt, I don't know, you have to ask. There's just a new book that came out, The Naturalist, right, I'm not sure, I think so, Yeah, I want to learn more about him. It's uh you just gotta go see him, see what's left, try to piece.
What do you have? What?
What are like the top of your list of places you want to see that you haven't gotten to yet.
I was we were talking earlier myopia hunt is on there, uh and Essex, I guess, right across the street from each other. Boston two step, Yeah, Cape Rundle, the Travis Course up in Maine.
I said I was going there with this year and it didn't.
Yeah, I said that last year. Theres I'm lucky right, there's I've seen a lot and a lot of what I've tried to. Huntercombe in the UK is the Willie Park Junior, the place that he I guess owned or was developed. That place just woke was absolutely fascinating. We Hinch has been at the very top of my list for the longest time. I was probably we.
Had a discussion earlier.
I want to go back to Japan and everything in Australians em I don't know. So there you go. Now we're in rabbit Hole City again.
And we had a discussion earlier about about.
Architects of the Golden Age that did it as a hobby and what they did, and then you know, It spawned from talking about Aiken and what a friend of ours said about how you know he got to build it for himself. Yeah, and you know Willie Park with hunter Combe right developed, he built it for himself.
Yeah, there's like we just you.
Know, I was just writing about the Addington another day for the equactic thing, right, and Abercrombie was the same thing there. It's like Pine Valley or yeah, how listen, I've thought about it. I've you know, I don't know how I can afford that perfect you know, Sandy Coast or even you know whatever. Honestly, it would be cool.
I've dreamt about just like somehow being able to take over like a few of these courses here in the like just as really close into the city and being able to take those over do something really cool and just sort of like a awesome nine hole course, a nine hole part three course and just to killer driving range and just being able to like show people kind of what you could do, like, you.
Know, well in Pine Valley, the greatest course in the country.
Everybody says that was built by a guy, you know, like the guy it was all a vision, right, Yeah, obviously he got a lot of help, but he built it for like you.
Know, yeah, but I don't know. But when I'm when you're out there on the machine, I'm not thinking em out what that. I'm just trying to make everything, you know, make love of the dirt, right, just give it. I'm just gonna I'm just like that anyways. I'm going to pretend like it's mind no matter what, and take to do the super high quality, best best work. You got to believe that, like or just you're doing it because you love to do it, and you know, you take
so much ownership of it. I think I don't think it would really be any different. If people are gonna trust me to do that, I'm gonna do it the same. Sure. I mean there's no like, what would I do on my own? Maybe not as much. It would be maybe a little bit more out there, I suppose, you know. But I guess it depends on your client too. At that rate, you know, what are they what are they
looking for? Everybody has so something. But yeah, but honestly, I just get dropped off on a bulldozer next week and it's like okay, you know, very little verbal instructions sometimes and it's like here you go, Okay, make something cool. So once you're there in the machine, it feels almost the same at that rate. Right, what does that make sense?
Yeah? It does. It does like once you get into it.
Right, once, once you're there, you've got to make it yours, you know that.
Because it is like you do have an ownership because it's your.
Yeah, and then it's turned over to the you know, contractor to the club to seed or you know whatever, and then it's then it's somebody else's. But until then, that's that's ours to make make it is the most fun golf you could possibly create out of it, Right.
What's your pet peeve architecture? It could be any any type. I'm just curious.
What what what? What? When you see just drives.
One of my favorites. I just love the way golf holes look in the dirt, just like tracked in with the track marks and the blade marks from how you know, the machine, or the bucket.
Marks from smashing down.
Yeah, yeah, I'm a I'm not a There's like different ways to run the machine.
You know.
There's a lot of guys. I'm a tapper, like you can normally hear it's really loud. The guys that rent you the machine don't like you because you're beating the hell out of the thing. So sorry, Matt and Rich and everybody.
They're making their money on those round.
It's all right, Uh, they'll if you, if you go fast enough, they'll forgive you. But when it's got all those fresh bucket marks and all those tracks on it, and then someone comes ripping up on a cart or something and just lays just tire tracks right down the line of sight, it's like, uh, don't touch it. It's just so perfect right now. But it's obviously an inevitable part of the process. It's that is my least favorite.
I'm sure. Yes, I've gotten probably way too upset a few people for just run in something, but it just is what it's not, you know, all right, we'll fix it, no big deal. Well it's got to be perfect at the end, and it's that's all that matters.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's uh.
I always like say, like a sprig. Course, oh no, sprigs are the worst. Sprigs is the worst process to watch because you're out there and I get you know, I probably said it to make love the dirt, right, It's just it's got you put this perfect finish on it. You make every so it's like, you know, we're literally talking fractions of an inch, you know, with almost all of the features right there. It's and then you know, certain like the service of a green, right you know,
we'll hand rake the green. And then you know what, how you sprag You get a bunch of guys to just come trample everything, you know, walk all over it by hand. After you've just raked every footprint off of the thing, they're gonna then walk all across it, put out all their fur, then take all these sprigs, throw them all over the place and just have a dance
party across it. Then they can come by and slice it in and then they're gonna crimp it in and roll it in and somehow it always goes back perfectly. Or but it is the don't ever watch anything I don't like.
Like when it's just after.
The I love the color of hydromulch. That's a beautiful sight. Maybe that's what I don't Sprigging is the worst. The finish like pre seed because northern, like bankrast rescue, the finished work you have to do has to be ultra precise because that that won't tolerate it right, it'll stay in that forever. But the process with the springing, with all that herd of elephants and the whole circus that goes on after, you know. So if it's a smith, you know you want to get it to absolutely perfect.
But there's different tolerances because of what you do after in the next step of the process. So and then I try to finish everything like it's bent anyways, Right, you got to make you's got to make a perfect You get one chance. You get one chance, then the grass goes on and it's done. Then it costs a whole lot more to take it apart. So one chance, you got to make it perfect. That's true.
Yeah, that is the The finality of design is like kind of a scary thing.
You don't want to dig stuff back up.
What's like the most nervous you've been on a project or like building something, if you ever felt like I really don't want to screw this up, like like I was typically about like one maybe the most well I know for sure I'm going to be I'm already nervous about doing that hole at Edgar Town in the spring, just because it's so unique and the land form is so amazing already, and that'll be the first, probably the first, definitely the first green I've ever fully you know, executed
on my own. Entirely green expansion is one thing, but to build an entirely new green on that's that's a huge step.
You're design correct, you know. So that's but in the past.
Built a lot of greens from nothing, but.
I wouldn't say a lot, you know, certainly that's you know, Gil Gil or Jim or say Eric Iverson when I was working for Tom or Bryant, those who were the guys building most of the greens. We've definitely built, you know, we do a lot of sort of everything else, and we certainly tweaked things here there, certainly built a good handful of them. Certainly in the last year it's been
more and more. That's we're talking about earlier. That was the amazing thing about frances I've built more greens for them in France than I probably did in the four years prior working with them, So that that's what made that That's why you know, brain right, aside from the Rose right and the duck, but aronom Ink was very nerve wracking going into that was probably the most nervous i'd ever been because the amount we had to recreate for that restoration. I mean it was going from seventy
something bunkers to like one hundred and eighty two. I believe that they're out there right now. So entire landforms needed to be totally recreated, and some ultra artistic just mind blowing week cool stuff, and we had tons of photographic evidence of what it exactly was like. But to that was I felt pretty nervous being in the everyday guy there and being the one that was there that was that was tough, but very proud of how it turned out.
Speaking of like in your mind, what's the line?
I feel like, you know, certain places should always you know, like given their space in the game, Like it's a no brainer restore, restore, and a lot of stuff has gotten restore, But like when is it When is it right to not restore and to renovate maybe a hole or change a routing or of especially a classic golf course like a Golden Age design.
I think, you know, I don't know, it's something you don't want to get in a necessarily pattern of doing, but I think it's a circumstantial thing. So only to just pull from like an actual experience. Right, So there's there's a couple of places like that. I think in the future we kind of hope to do it suburban.
Right.
It's a nineteen twenty two toing Hasse course. It was built ten minutes down the street from Baltos Rawl the same year. So there's tons of incredible stuff out there. But there's also it's a very tight place. It's a small property. It's there's a lot of linear nature it required to get sort of through. But there's a you know, there's a shortish par five there that's got five hundred yards of propery line and fence up the right and over time that it's become trees on the left side,
which is narrowing the thing. And there's really you know, was really never any it was just a straight five hundred yard hole until it got to the green and the green had changed. The greens was changed by a golf pro I don't know, thirty fifty years ago. It's just a pancake, right, just change. But that's a place where you know, they have already a pattern of these really cool sort of shared hazards, and we need to do something to try to pull the interest left instead
of right where they have the boundary issue. That's a place where you could sort of get in to do They already have shared hazards on a number of holes, so if we could do something like connect some fairway a little bit with the seventeen on the left of it,
do some cool shared hazards. And I've kind of thought too since the green sort of you know, that's a place where maybe you could add a little bit more of a it's a it's you could maybe start to think about doing something, you know pull tilling House did a lot of writing and sketching of template holes, especially the park fives, you know, double dog leg the right. So that's something there where we've sort of just batted
around that idea. We haven't done anything with it, but that's something kind of kicking in the back of our heads for down the road. So that's a place I kind of look to is you know, there's it's just five hundred yards of straight this is a place kind of yeah, but not Tilly's so.
Yeah, yeah, it's uh yeah, that's that's a tricky thing.
There's also places too where if there's like a functionality thing right, So if it's there's correct, circumstances have changed and it's flooding and you have to move something right, you know, then what do you do? Shade safety things like that. Those are always obvious ones. But you know, sometimes I don't want to change the crazy stuff. I like, you know, the wildest stuff. I'm always going to probably lean to low keep that that's the cool stuff. But
like the stuff that you know, I don't know. I think there's sometimes a lot of room for improvement. Things are always evolving, so you just got to work at it. Oh, I guess a circumstance. But at the same I'm pretty strict on myself with the restoration and stuff. I really I don't know. I'm I'm pretty I think you kind of have to be. There's a lot of gray area and what restoration is. So I just try to be pretty clear and try to if we're going to be
really authentic, I want to do that. If there's no reason to do that, then what we do. Is it just something that's influenced or is it a total I don't know. There's a lot of ways that it's to sort of spin it.
At the same time, Yeah, it's kind of got like a dividing line and then like.
As you get some edge of the spectrum and you know, it's very delicate situation.
Yeah, but you know, there's always been a pattern and I think you know, when there's real history and there's really something to tie into, I think there's something really cool about having that same sort of experience and the people have been playing golf here for one hundred years and that's sort of same thing. I think there's a lot to that. I think we have that throughout our culture, right, that sort of you know, antiques sort of thing for
a reason. Right, people love that sort of stuff, the sort of vintage clothing that you know, all our kitchen appliances look like they're you know, they have a very sort of historic sort of thing to them. I think it's you know, the way he kind of you know, what did mom do right at home? So there's there's always a draw I think to that culturally, and it.
I don't know, Hey, I haven't done overrated underrated in like a year.
Wow, do some overrighted underrated baby, We'll see, I guess go for it.
Rainer currently.
Currently dreading overrated probably and that he didn't make the rushmore he didn't make Mount Rushmore for me, so I didn't. Yeah, how about that.
It's kind of unbelievable.
I just I always am that amaze, the fact that he didn't even know what golf was.
About that, right McDonald, I think would be closer to the Rushmore than Rainer in my mind.
Yeah. The impact, right, impact is insane, Rayner. The thing that I'm amazed.
About is that Andy's favorite rabbit hole.
I've said this a lot, but I think his best holes are the non template holes.
Yeah, totally. M that's fine.
Yeah, yeah, but you know, so it's hard to pick for listen, I love it.
I just I was super pumped about Francis Byrne the other day, right, I mean I love it, right, of course. Yeah, but the whole you know, I love the temple like I love the you know, the world needs more leaving holes as far as I'm concerned, or no, like really good no holds. But at the same time too, that's the only thing the world seems to be talking about right now, and I'm just a little uh. I want to be different, man, I like, you can do something different.
I you know, I don't. I don't post pictures for likes like and stuff.
But I know when I posts like some fresh new Rainer photos that the internet is going to like.
Love them.
It's so weird. It's I don't know what it is about. I think it's because people have seen it.
Yes, it's recognizable and so you you and they're easy to understand because you can you can, okay, well, this whole the strategy of it is like this, and it's sort of told to you and it's explained to you, so you can relate it back to that and you can break it down and it's like, you know, that's the if you were going to teach an architecture one oh one thing, almost like tons of that stuff would be in there, right, that's you know, the most copied
hole in golf is the 'redan right, how would that not be? You know, you'd have that discussion of what is that? And how does it look here?
How is it?
There's this one? You know, so it's it's just relatable. People can can get it, and that's great.
You know.
I started like that too, like of course, but then the more and more sometimes it's like all right, you know, I absolutely I'm I'd love to go to Camargo that's really high on my but like the same time too, you know, difference difference good too. Yeah, yeah, I know, I I I like to zig and you know.
I like the most influential golf course in my life is a Rainer, you know, And I think that's why, Like you know, that's like the place where like a light bulb went off for me. So I think that's obviously always something that I you know, and it's but like as I've seen more and more, everybody gets.
That, right.
I just said, I just said overrated, and I cannot tell you how excited I am to go put Yo tomorrow just through the like so I say that, but it's essentially, you know, it's just a temperature of the room answer. I suppose you know culture, you know. Yeah, I'd probably hate him even more if I was on Twitter, but I'm not going to do that.
So the group I'm not I'm not making as I got too many opinions to be on Twitter, so we're not going to do that.
It's I used to reply, and I used to be, you know, but I'm done.
No, I'm a I'm more of a I don't like getting in the mentions anymore. It's uh, you know, the the social media has been overall really good for architecture. Yeah, but I think it also creates this like group think and in a way can stunt the progression because you know, becomes this gospel this is good and like I feel like sometimes I'm I do you know it's like this is good, this is bad.
It's like it's if it's you know, what you guys do is art.
You know, there should be a wide range of opinions, right, Yeah, this is a big, big topic.
You know, Yeah, this is this is only going to get me in terrible trouble too. Oh man, how do I how do I find my way through here?
A topic for another day.
It's hard to give like honest critique, especially someone in my place, right because you know I do this so I have a very critical eye, and so I always just get frustrated because as an art you know, I went to you know, I was a school, I was an architecture major. I was a studio art minor. You know, critique was everything, right, So I insist on critique on site. I want to know, you know, we were talking about earlier, like having Kyle on site. He's gonna you know, ask him.
You know, I like what this is doing. I like what that's doing. Did you ever think about this? What about that? That's how we learn. And you know, you know when your professor in college stands up and she freaking rips your model in half and like you thought you were gonna walk in and get an a and then you just have to stand up there and present something and all of a sudden you're getting slaughtered and it's like, here's your c mine is this is trash?
Like what were you thinking? Like So that's the only way I think we can learn. But you need that to push everything forward because if everything is simply the just like everything the newest is always the best, it's not the best, it's just so that's we need that. I don't know how you get that. I know it's very difficult to critique the other guy in the same business as like I get it. It's it's a weird ground. It's hard to do right and not offend everybody. And thus,
you know Twitter, you were critical. I'm yes, very early on, like early on, but it made me better.
And like Tommy Knakarata, it was really critical of me on some.
And I just saw him defend you very very well the other day. But and he's and that so many people he hit on exactly the same thing that you know, you've you took it. But then you like you got on a plane, you game here and you're standing in the dark waiting for the sun come up to take photos of put you know, places that no one's ever heard of. You drove two hours out of your way to go to Galen Hall because to go like a moat hole, Like there's not many people that would do so.
But but this is the thing Tommy like he like shredded me.
Sure he sent a gazillion messages to Gill and Jim, well what does this get?
But but but you called him. I talked to him and I in it. And what he said, he's like, you know, like you just need to do your homework like you do your.
And it was he was totally right, and it's like it changed.
But like, and this is the thing that kind of can drive me nuts a little bit about the Internet because like if you say something critical about something somewhere, people like think you hate it, and it's like, well no, I'm just pointing out like one thing. Yeah, and if somebody doesn't point it out. How do you ever know that?
That might I and I'm not necessary.
And then if the thing too is you know, if someone if like if I want to talk about the functionality stuff or how something was constructed, no one in the world is going to understand that, And then they're just being like, oh, you're you're saying all this, but horizon line, it's bad too, because I can be really negative or be really critical of a really small thing, but overall the thing was actually excellent. And I find that's often I really really like something and you know,
you know, say it's like a doakes. You know, I might give something a doke seven, but I might rant and rave about a couple of things that are just driving me nuts out there and like everybody, but I was like, you know, I might be fascinated about it and just go on and on and on. Know it's like, what are you talking? It's still an awesome golf court. Like, don't get me wrong, but there's something about the way
that this thing is that just gets at me. And I don't have a place to explain that because that's how people learn, and you know, we you know, I just want to teach people more, and it's hard to be you have to be sometimes critical. You don't necessarily be overly negative, but frank and it's it's tough to find that. And then you know, it's tough some always to find you know, well, what good is it going to do if you just I don't know? So it's tough.
I loved well, I'm the golf Cabatles is riddled of things like that I've said over the years. And but that's more of that discussion thing. For whatever reason that you know, where I spend most of time on social media, it's like Instagram, right, and there's not nearly that conversation.
Here on Instagram, saw like it's the photos roses.
And it drives me insane. Sometimes it's just because like to me, like, but everywhere can't be the greatest in the world, because if everywhere is the greatest, then.
What is the greatest? Correct? Yes?
Then like how do you ever know if it is the greatest? If you if you say everything's the.
Greatest, yep, I'm I I struggle with this all the time.
Yeah, but then you start talking about like you're talking to someone that's worked on a lot of these super you know, like.
Incredible places that they are. You know a lot of them are these courses you're talking about. I don't know how to like, you know, I will. You know, it's great to have the positive, it's amazing, but how does it really you know, sometimes it's too soon. You just got to see how things level off well.
And that's the thing is, like so many courses, you got to see how they mature.
Too, right, and you can't judge. It's so hard.
To judge of courses or living, breathing, evolving things.
And like one loop around.
I found this with especially National Golf Links, Like I the first time I played it?
Did had you ever walked it before?
No?
So see when I went, So I walked the golf course probably three times before I ever played it. So I'd call Bill, I'd send Bill an email, and I'd go out there in February. I'd I'd be out there at like seven am because I got to beat the traffic all the way out to the Hamptons right and then i'd come back. I'd walk the whole thing, probably take me six hours. I'd have six hundred photographs for the day. You know, the bunkers have palettes in them,
or white things like that. For the way there's no flags, it didn't matter, and you know, so like I was able to take every and I probably did that two or three times over the course of and then finally one time, you know, somehow, I you know, it was nice enough to have me out there. It was man. I played with Ben Hiward. It was the windiest it was literally there was a tropical storm off the coast of Long Island. We were the only people to play the golf course that day. But you know, you wouldn't
have had that, you know experience. I was pretty funny. They were like literally two tailor made reps in the shop with us. It was the four of us in the morning, and they were trying to wait it out, and we were like, all right, let's go for it. They never went out with only people on the golf course that whole day. But I smashed a best drive and best three wood of my wife and barely got pinhigh on seventeen. So that tells you how much wind there was. That's a lot of wind.
The uh.
Yeah, So the first time I played, Yeah, my buddy was like, what did you think. I'm like, you know, honestly, I can't even tell you because I'm like kind of like my I'm a total sensory overload.
You couldn't take it in.
Like the second time I played, I like saw i'd noticed a lot.
More stuff like yeah.
And then the third time I was there, I played with like a hit and a per Simon or a Hickory driver and a Ballota ball and it was like insane, you know, like, all of a sudden, I saw so much more than.
I ever about that restoration movement.
The seventeenth tea was the most and like this, everybody talks about how great seventeen is, right and playing modern, it's not a great hole for me because I just blasted up the left and there's no thought like but then all of a sudden.
I have a hickory and a Lota in my hand, right, and all of a sudden, I saw so many more about.
That's what the Principal's nose really was, wasn't it. It was like a three dimensional hazard when you had to try to get the old hickory stuff airborne, because that so it was like a.
Vertical hazard, correct, right, And in all of a sudden.
The seventeenth I had this like I was like, oh, like I got why it was cool, but I at the same time, I'm like, nobody can call this is the greatest part four in the world right now, because like with modern equipment, you just hit it over it, you know, and it's not the design's fault. You know, it's the governing body's fault. But like it's not like you know it by today's standard, is you know, sadly not the But then all of a sudden with the
old equipment, I'm like, but I appreciate that more. And then people are like, what are you gonna write about this place? And I'm like, frankly, I'm not even right right about it. What am I gonna write? What am I going to add to.
The subject right now?
Yeah, because I haven't even seen and I don't know enough about it. You know, certain places you can you know, shed light on early on that people haven't provided the places.
Museum, you could write about so many different things. There's like every kind of bunker on the ever you know imagined is somewhere out there already.
Right seventeen, the bunker with the top, I mean.
That's why, you know, then the next McKell or to the trench bunker.
The inverted bunkers at Garden City are well they're out there at National Yeah, it's inverted bunkers need to come back. I saw.
We were talking earlier, right, the the sort of you know, the future, right, the change, the reaction to the other stuff. Well, there you go, invert bunk.
You don't need Billy bunker for that, right, So cool anyway that doesn't know what invert bunker is like literally just think about flipping a bunker over and then just put it mound with sand on top of it.
Yeah, I like the cool ones that certainly a Garden City where it's like deep bunker and then it's got something in the middle, and then it goes to the it's got the trifecta, right, the inverted and then the middle stage and then the like deep cavern all in like a triplet right there. Those are so Walter Travis. It was just brilliant with his creation of features. But I think we only got one overrated underrated.
And then way man time, Well, you know, discussion.
I'm glad you got brought that back there. I feel honored to participate it in that.
You know, it's a good because it just jumps you into these topics.
Yeah, look at the rabbit hole. It led us into mm hmmm. All right, this is enough. You know, the second end.
It's gonna be just sheer, delusional golf nerd stuff after this.
Thanks for coming on for the second time. All right.
People can find you on Instagram, proper Golf at proper Golf, and they can read all.
Your stuff on the Friday. You've written a lot of stuff.
A lot of stuff were fourteen weeks up right, I think today or yesterday fourteen went up right from the old course Cide wrote about. Yeah, so come down the stretch.
Yeah, you gotta be like the fifth most contributing author on the Friday.
So I'm gonna remember that then one of these days when it' you better be careful. Now we got photographs too, I know this is just giving me amo. Yeah.
Perfect, All right, Well, we'll talk to you soon and look forward to seeing edgartown.
Yeah, I get out there, awesome. Definitely nothing wrong with day playing golf in Martha's vineyard.
There's always time for nine or eighteen or eighteen.
You gotta play both seven and sixteen