Today's episode is powered by Tdammeritrade. Every stroke counts on the scorecard and every penny counts in the market. That's why Tedammerior Trade is committed to straightforward pricing with no surprises, so you're free to swing with confidence. Visit tdomritrade dot com slash Fried Egg member SIPC. Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. In today's episode, I
am joined by Michael McCartin and Will Smith. These two have formed a nonprofit foundation called the National Links Trust. This nonprofit will focus on the restoration and preservation of municipal golf in the United States. Their organization plans to start with focusing on East Potomac, Rock Creek and Langston Golf Course, three municipal courses in Washington, d C. Which
are managed by the National Park Service. The National Park Service is starting an RFP process for their next operator, which will be granted a lease up to sixty years. This long term lease will allow the properties to have significant investment put into them and hopefully improvement of the courses.
The National Blink Trust hopes to be an instrumental part in these three courses future Michael mccarton was a guest on episode of one and twenty one when we discussed in detail his thesis on the East Potomac golf Course. Since that podcast, he has become more involved with the RFP process and the other municipal courses in Washington, d C. For this episode, we will lead into our conversation with Michael and will with a highlight from our earlier episode with Michael.
I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in.
A brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida, egg Frida, egg Frida, egg, egg Frida, egg bride egg.
Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Flat flat land, pretty pretty modest, nothing crazy. And they hired Walter Travis. Ye, Who's Walter Travis? Where does he fit in at this point in his career?
Walter Travis was an amazing golfer in his own right. He won the US Amateur and the British Amateur. One of the best golfers in history and was extremely well known at the time and had trans you know, transferred his talents from playing golf actively to being a golf course architect. At that time, he had built Garden City and Aquanic in Vermont and was kind of at the
height of his powers as a golf architect. He was working at the time at Columbia Country Club in Washington, d C. And Walter Harbin, who was a member there kind of an influential guy in the Washington DC golf scene, recommended Walter Travis to the people in the Washington d C Planning in a group to design the course at East Potomac Park. And he took a look at the course and was like, well, this is reclaimed land from the Potomac River. It's relatively flat, it's kind of shaped
in this triangular shape going downstream in the river. It kind of looks like San Andrew's honestly if you look at it in any But yeah, he was. He looked at the site and he said, you know what, this is the perfect place to build a reversible golf course. And he was he was a proponent of reversible courses.
Why right, Well, because especially in this in this case, they're a great way to create variety day to day and also spread out the wear and tear from a maintenance perspective, and when you think about how that applies to a municipal course, where the idea is you're going
to get a lot of people around. It's open to everybody, and at the time, there weren't a lot of avenues to play golf if you were't a member of a country club, so they were planning for a lot of golf, and the idea of a reversible, you know, course makes a ton of sense in that scenario where day to day the way people walk around the place is different, and so the wear patterns that in a different situation might cause maintenance problems over time, you know, you can
spread those out and keep the entire place in better shape. At the same time, if you play one day in one direction and then you play the next day in the other direction, it feels like a totally different course. So you get a lot, you know, a lot of bang for your buck in that scenario.
You had a great quote in your thesis.
Good golf architecture and affordability are not mutually exclusive. Municipal golf courses need to feature quality design at a price locals can afford to play frequently, and that's the ethos of this whole thing is that at a core East Potomac set out to build the greatest municipal golf course that in the country, and they did it by building a golf course that was still exceptionally challenging for the regular player, but so playable for the regular guy.
Yeah, and if you think about it, it hosted a major tournament in its first full year of existence and still got one hundred thousand rounds through it that same year. I mean, it's crazy to even think about it, but that one hundred thousand round number comes from a full on cross section of the golfing community in Washington, d C. At that time, probably heavily skewed to non country club members who are just starting to play.
All right, Michael, you're back on second time.
It's a huge honor. This is great. Two times is more than is two times more than I thought I would ever do it.
And Will Smith So, co founder of the Outpost Club, former aspiring golf architect, world traveler.
Yeah, it's nice to be with you, Andy and Michael. Tough to follow the footsteps of the greats like Colin she And and Jeff Ogilvy, but we'll do our best.
Yeah, So we're here today a little follow up from Michael and I's pod over the Winner about East Potomac and the Washington, DC area municipal golf courses. So we're here, Michael, why don't you give us an update where we're at with those with the RFP process. I know we talked at length, so anybody that hasn't listened to that pod be sure to check it out.
Sure. Yeah, So the RFP scheduled to come out in the middle of May, and will and I have been trying to chart it course forward to try and make sure that you know, everything we talked about in the
first podcast actually happens. And that's basically to you know, try to honor the histories of East Potomac and Rock Creek and Langston through restoration of the East Potomac and Rock Creek golf courses to the Walter Travis and William Flynn designs, but also just preserving the accessibility and affordability
of the courses. And based on you know what, we know a lot more now than we did at the time that we talked Andy, and it's kind of amazing how many people have reached out to us part of this process, you know, after we were on your podcast, and we've gotten two people and had meetings that we probably couldn't have had otherwise. So we wanted to say thank you for that exposure. What we want to accomplish requires,
you know, the right partartners. So one thing we've been doing is just kind of having conversations with people who either would put in a bid or would be interested, you know, as part of a bid that we might do. And so we're trying to keep our options open at this point. But yeah, so to bad.
You know, you guys are forming a nonprofit called the National Links Trust, and it's centered around maintaining restoring municipal golf courses. At first, the main focus right now is Washington, DC, but the grandiose vision is a organization that really protects and attempts to make municipal golf, especially in city center better. Yeah.
I mean that's kind of the key thing that we've learned as part of this is just the reaction that we've gotten has been from people who care so much about municipal courses. It's the place where people learn, it's
the gateway to golf for a lot of people. Nowhere is that, you know, it's incredibly true at East Potomac and the the DC courses, and we realize that the you know, what people are feeling towards ease Potomac applies elsewhere, and and it does feel like the the golf courses that are in those situations are subject to you know, pressures and things that that other courses don't, and they, you know, in a lot of a lot of ways need help to kind of maintain their you know, their influence,
you know, both from you know, an accessibility and affordability perspective, but also on the architecture side, where like you've done a lot of work, you know, shining a light on Belmont for example, you know, the story of Belmont and the story of East Potomac where these once great designs have kind of eroded over time, you know, is something that happens pretty routinely, especially when you're talking about courses
that were built in the twenties and thirties. And so you will will and I've like thought a lot about this, and I'll let him talk a little bit about it too, but thought about the need for somebody to say, hey, you know, the golf course is important too.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, part of the reason why we all love the game is the diversity and of of the courses and the fields that we get to play on. And it shouldn't. Good golf course architecture shouldn't just be for a certain subset of the golfing populace. It needs to be for everybody. It needs
to be. It needs to be. We need to have affordable and accessible good golf course architecture to engage beginners, to keep people coming back, to bring people back to the game, and places like East Potomac can be and are the fields that people need to keep playing and it can be a huge improvement on the course there. And we think we can we can help tell the story and make it make it a reality.
There are only so many hooks into the game, right. There's a lot of reasons why people start to play, but architecture is generally not one that's paid any attention to, and especially at the places where people learn. And and I think it's you know, overcoming it has or doing things, you know, especially in something that presents a cool problem.
I mean, like a good example would be one of the courses I played growing up had a stupid little pond and the yeah, architecturally it's not that great, but it was a hazard. Like anytime I hit it over the pond as like a seven year old, you know, it's like a big deal, you know. But that sort of thing can be presented thrill Yeah, yeah, I mean,
but think about it if it's actually done well. You know, if there's a golf course that that you know, compels you to think about what you're doing and try for things, you know, like a carry or thing or things like that where you pull it off, it's it's it's thrilling.
Yeah. I think something that you've said to me a bunch that really sticks with me is that the dirty secret about in golf is that great golf course architecture doesn't cost anymore than mediocre golf architecture.
Yeah. I mean, when it comes to a place like Rock Creek or East Potomac where there's so much deferred maintenance into the courses, they're going to have to to fix the drainage at East Potomac, they're going to have to put millions of dollars into the place. And if you you know, at the same time as you rebuild everything in the you know, aftermath of fixing drainage. To build your average course or to build something great, it's exactly the same, you know, amount of effort and time.
It's really just the thought and you know point of view of the of the architects and builders and people you know who are influencing the direction of the course that that determines the quality of the outcome.
I think that we've seen a growing trend with restoration across the country, but it's mostly been in the private space. When you look through the big cities and across the country, there's usually a great golf course that's municipally run in almost all of them, and that's I think the when you look at the great opportunity there's obviously you know, these are the most popular golf courses, whether they're they're
great or they're present and of the way they are now. Really, I think the end of it is the product, and we're in a product driven society, so it should only help to have more people flocking to the game of golf if the products great.
Absolutely, and uh and you know, I want to commend to you on some of your writing on this issue. It really helped me sort of realize that this isn't just a d C opportunity or a d C issue, that this is a national opportunity that we need to get people back to the game or into the game. And the architecture in the fields is to me the key. And as Mike point out, it's no more no more expensive to build a great golf course than it is to build a mediocre bore one.
So yeah, the other thing I think that people focus on now more than ever, and it is incredibly true for us, is that, yeah, the democracy of the game, like bringing things that are available to people, you know, with tons of money and members at a bunch of clubs, you know, because when you combine that with the idea that great golf course architecture doesn't cost anymore, it's it's kind of crazy that there aren't more significant courses that
are available to the public at a reasonable price given all of that, And it's about it's about prioritizing the right things in the process. And I think, you know, one of the points of this National Links Trust idea is to provide that, you know, startup capital to make the types of changes that are being made at private clubs around the country, but make that available to the places where so many people can actually go out and experience it.
With East Potomac and the National Parks Courses here in Washington, d C. It's a it's a pivotal point right now with the RFPs opening up in mid May. What are the initial goals for the National Links Trust for this project here?
Well, first, we have to find the right partners as part of this process. We're open to working with entities that we're going to put in a bid anyway, as well as you know, organize our own. So we're really going down the path of you know, both both trying to work with with those people who are already involved and
trying to you know, bring together our own group. And we've had a lot of great conversations along that that way, and we're we're kind of gearing up to to do our own bid because we don't know exactly how people will react when when the RFP does come out.
In me, Yeah, we're we're trying to get our ducts in a row, trying to get gather as much information as possible, but also put together a group that can respond to the to the RFP when it comes out, both both from a partnership standpoint but also from an
advocacy standpoint. You know, this is a political exercise at the end of the day, and and we're going to need to We're going to need to uh to talk to the people up on the on the hill in the National Park Service and and and share our vision as widely and broadly as we possibly can.
Yeah, the sharing of vision is kind of the the thing that kind of brings people into the fold that you know, just like whether it's this podcast or we're having you know, a get together today. You know, we've we've had such a great response from people from all over kind of the community in DC, and everybody can contribute in different ways, and so kind of getting the group of people who are interested together, figuring out ways in which everybody can can make a difference in the
process is also a big part of that. And kind of playing to everyone's strength.
Obviously with the properties there's you know, they're right in the city, they're i mentally valuable. Any operator that takes over has the opportunity to build a great business around this in terms of what are what's the vision in terms of the properties and what type of golf the National Ink Trust is trying to promote.
Well especially as it relates to the three DC courses. Rock Creek and East Potomac are the like most straightforward, and that they had great designs, you know, to start out, So then you have to kind of look at it from a business perspective. We want to get back to those great designs. East Potomac happens to be a great business right now. If the driving range makes a ton of money, the golf courses are full, there's not an immediate need to do something tomorrow in order to fix
the business. At Rock Creek, however, the back nine is fully overgrown by trees and you know, you have to walk single file down the fairway is if you're not going to get hit by a branch, right, So there's an immediate need there to do something to help the business. You know, We've kicked around some ideas and we have a pretty clear vision for what we should accomplish there.
One of the one of the things that's unique about Rock Creek is it's on the you know, the drive home for hundreds of thousands people in the DC area commuting to and from work. East Potomac has a driving range that kills It makes a ton of money every year Rock Creek is actually more convenient for a lot of people, but it doesn't have a driving range. That could be a great option for just turning around the
business of Rock Creek quickly. There's if you were going to go down that route, you could preserve nine holes of the William Flynn course and build a Part three course or a kid's course or something like that and really cater to you know, what people have time and ability to do, you know, in this day and age,
you know, with family commitments and everything. You know, having a place where you can go and spend an hour or two playing golf or getting your kids involved is incredibly valuable, and Rock Creek is just kind of sitting there waiting for something like that to happen.
Yeah, I think we're at a really interesting point in sort of municipal golf in uniteds America. There's so many great programs. The people are rethinking what municipal golf can be. You know, while we're sort of developing this concept and ideas were forming in my head, and I got to go down and see Winter Park nine and see the way that that seamlessly integrates to its community, the way it engages the community through programming that's not necessarily golf
focused and golf driven. You know, these are all the things that we want to look at and learn from and you know, potentially bring to the facilities here in in d C. It's I think it's a really exciting time for municipal golf. People are starting to think broader and and out of left field and and uh trying to bring new ideas, and so we're excited to to keep folks, you know, keep keep chasing those downs.
One last thing. You know that we've talked a lot about the Part three courses that are popping up around the big resorts and how popular those are. And then you know at Pinehurst or abandoned Sam Valley, it's another place. It's another thing where that should be. You know, that's
that's a perfect scenario for a municipal course. You know, East Potomac has a Part three course and it's the you know, the first course I played and then I graduated to the White Course, which is you know, an executive length course, and then the Blue and just to have facilities like that where you can you know, get some experience and then move up, you know that that should be another function of municipal golf and and it's something that you know a lot of places have room for.
And I think there's now the appetite and recognition that that's important.
You know, today, I think in a lot of ways, the resort are almost like the innovators on the golf spectrum. So they, you know, especially in the golf course, they have a very monetary reason to be on the cutting edge. And short courses popularity boom at the resort level should signal signal to the operators at municipal level like this
is working and build course. That's something really stuck with me when we did the podcast about the Sandbox was when he was growing up, Part three, courses were like second class citizen for golf, Like there were the golf courses go to when you didn't have time to or couldn't get a tea time at the big golf course.
And anybody that's played, whether it be band and Dunes, Preserve, the Cradle and Pinehurst or the Sandbox of sand Valley or you know, I know that Big Cedar Lodge has some short courses and country clubs are starting to pop up with short courses.
Is if you do a.
Good job, if you put the time into designing this short course, it's not uninteresting. Like you know, Ogilvie, Clayton, Kaking and mea OCCM did a great one in Dallas at Shady Oaks Country Club and you know, walking around there, I was like, this is infinitely interesting and you could set it up a number of different ways and tests everything.
It's those golf courses.
Also at the modern time, with technology, people have less and less time for eighteen holes. At the municipal level, they almost make more sense than they make.
The resort level.
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to go on like a randmre set type rant against the scorecard and pencil set. But you know, golf is golf is about being outside. It's about being outside with friends and family. It's about engaging your mind and engaging your body. And we don't need to put these into these four hour eighteen whole boxes. It can be shorter. It can be you know, twelve par threes, it can be thirteen par threes, it can be you know a mix of short fours and threes.
It can be anything.
It's about being outside and being with friends and so yeah, sure the Kaisers have had touched on something they figured it out, and yeah, I think the resorts are leading the way and it's definitely the municipal golf and even private clubs have you said, are starting to follow suit.
So how can people help with the National ink streuss? What can they do to pitch in? And you know, say they're in LA or other areas other than d C.
How can they get involved and help?
Yeah, I mean it's early days, you know, at this point. You know, we would love for you to go to our website nationallink trust dot com, fill out the form that's at the bottom or the pop up that will come up, and get on our mailing list. We are in the process of forming our five and one C three and our nonprofit status and starting up a way to be able to take donations and hopefully that will
be coming here in the next few weeks. But you know, drop us a note, let us know how you want to get involved, and you know, follow us on social media at National links Trust on Instagram. I think it's at links Underscore National on Twitter. Join the conversation. We'd love to hear from you and and you know we'll be coming at you asking for things soon enough.
Yeah.
The other thing I'd add is that it would be great to hear from people about courses that they're passionate about and think are good opportunities that fit in this mold. You know, we're you know, we grew up in the DC area. We love the golf courses here, but this I think is bigger than just DC, and we want to hear about places that have a similar opportunity that people are passionate about.
And we'd love to hear success stories places that have sort of gone down this road and improve their golf courses and seeing seeing results and different different techniques that people have used to engage the community and maintain affordability and accessibility to these golf courses. You know, we want to learn.
I think the huge opportunity of this is obviously Washington, d C. And these golf courses. East Potomac was built to be the model municipal but when you look at scaling beyond DC and the way a communiticy community can interact with a golf course, but also from a public perspective, people travel the major cities all the time, and the ability to have you know, golf courses within the metro area that you can have a great experience, a great golfing experience.
About everybody wins in this scenario.
The local community has a golf course that is accessible, beginner friendly, affordable, and you know, very convenient, you know, making golf more convenient. And then also for the person that might be in Chicago, like you're probably going to get to d C before the end of your life, so you know, hopefully you get there and you've got a great golf course to play that you don't have to get in an uber or rent a car and drive forty five minutes to find a place to play golf.
You know that the closeness to the city center is one of the most amazing things about these municipal golf courses across the cities.
The other thing I would I think that goes with what you're saying is that and it's kind of like ties together. Lot of what we're saying is that these places should be geared towards not just the hardcore golfer, because we know they're the places that people start, you know,
learning the game. But in thinking about successful examples of courses that are really truly part of the community, they also involve other uses outside of golf, whether it's like hiking or just you know, whether it's winter park where you have programming around the clubhouse that gets people there. I haven't been there, but I've heard of that. The
DC courses are actually like great examples of that. East Potomac has a road and kind of walking trail along the river and it's really and it's a park that's really well used. Rock Creek is like actually part of the city's major park and people can hike around the edges of the course. It's all about kind of bringing people together and when you have people coming from outside
the area. Not everybody in a group necessarily plays golf, but to have you know, things for people to do in the area so that it's a legitimate, you know stop that involves you know, everybody in a group is It's also important and you know, these are like civic spaces and they should you know, cater to you know, the use of golf, but also too, you know to anything else that kind of fits in the in the area.
Yeah, obviously, like the most famous example would be San Andrews, which park on Sundays.
Yeah, so.
It's it's inclusive.
I mean, the whole point of this is to be inclusive to beginners too, you know, to good golfers and to non golfers.
Make it easy for people to play golf and make it even easier and more enjoyable for them to come back and play more.
It's really the really the goal.
Right absolutely, So thanks for you guys coming on. I'll provide links in the podcast and probably do a little write up about it and promote it on our social media channels so everybody knows where to find you guys, and it will be a really fun journey to get to follow and see where this goes. It's it's exciting
and I think for golf it's it's extremely needed. You know, it's something there's a hole that in the current landscape that it fits to help, at the very least advise communities on how to move forward with their golf, especially if they're invested in being in the golf world, in the golf space.
Yeah, well, Andy, thank you so much for having us. It's it's been a pleasure to talk talk golf, talk to National Links. Trust with you and Mike here.
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