I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball.
In a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name is Garrett Morrison, and today is Earth Day. I can't say I know exactly what people do on Earth Day, but on the Frida Egg Podcast we like to talk to doctor Cole Thompson about golf's relationship with the environment. We had Cole on the podcast last year around this time, and as you may or may not recall, he is the Assistant Director of Green Section Research for the usg
and he helps direct the Turf, Grass and Environmental Research Program. Basically, Cole works with scientists to identify research projects that might be beneficial to golf courses and the people who run them. He's a great resource for learning about what the golf industry can do to contribute positively to the environment and be more sustainable overall. Last year, Cole and I talked about general environmental issues as they relate to golf, and
in this episode we're focusing on water conservation. Water might be the single biggest problem that golf faces in the twenty first century. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that we are in an era of climate change and increasing drought conditions and golf course superintendents are going to have to adjust how they can do. That is a question that Cole thinks about all the time. So let's get to it. Here is doctor Cole Thompson on
water conservation in golf. Doctor Cole Thompson, Welcome back to the podcast.
Thanks Gerret, happy to be back.
So when you were on last year at this time, we touched on a broad range of environmental topics. We kind of covered the full gamut of issues. For this Earth Day, we figured we'd focus a little bit more narrowly and talk about water conservation. And I don't think it's actually a super narrow topic. There are a lot of related issues. But just to get people started thinking about this, what is the importance of the water issue in golf right now? How would you characterize that?
Yeah, you know, it's a good question, and I think it's important to focus on water use in golf. Golf courses require water, you know, plants require water to grow, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. So it's important to be forward thinking about water. And I think I think golf course superintendents and facilities are very thoughtful in a way they use water today. But I think we can I personally think we can always
do better. And so you know, there's only going to be more competition for resources like water as our population grows and we have to deliver that resource and the other resources that require water to deliver their products to our citizens, and so it's important as a society to consider it. And so yeah, I think it's a really important topic.
Just in the time that you've been working in the industry, how has climate change affected the way that golf courses are using water?
Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question, and it's always hard to relate it directly to climate change, but you know, in general, you know, we can all know and observe that it's getting warmer, and even in my lifetime, it seems like from my perspective, the the micro droughts that we got in Kansas where I grew up are getting more prevalent and longer. And then maybe when we get the annual rainfall that you can count on, maybe it
comes more less frequently, it comes in larger volumes. And so I think things like that have have become challenging
for people just just during my lifetime. As you said, the growing seasons are getting are getting longer for more northern climates, and so that means that you know, it takes more water in a year to grow turf and so and then just when it's hotter, that kind of provides, uh, when it's warmer, you know, warm temperatures require or make a turf use more water to actually complete their growth processes.
And so so all of these things point to, you know, a climate where it takes a little bit more water and also a situation where maybe you don't have it as naturally readily available through precipitation as you may have been used to.
And I think this dynamic creates an environment culturally where golf can be in in a tough position just in terms of public relations. I mean, in a time when there's less water available and golf courses need more water, golf courses seem more and more wasteful to the general public. So, how would you describe the state of the public perception of golf and water.
Yeah, that's the I mean you characterized it. Well, that's the typical perception people tend to perceive. Golf course irrigation is wasteful, and you know, I guess I can understand that. If you don't understand the way that a golf course functions or what the real numbers are, it's easy. It's easy to just assume that the golf is just waste in.
Water, willy nilly.
But when you really like dial down and look at the numbers, you get a different perspective. And so something that I commonly get asked when I talk about water with people. They've somewhere that golf courses need three hundred thousand gallons of water a day or something like that, and the question is, oh, is this right? And my answer, if I'm thinking, well that day is it depends Because Yeah, for some golf courses, that could be right around the
number that they might require per day. In the cooler, rainier environments, it's probably more like thirty thousand gallons of water a day. Okay, So that's a huge range. So it's important to remember that and as we kind of
bubble that up to the next level. So I guess, first of all, just taking those numbers, you know, when the average United States citizen uses eighty gallons of water a day or so, according to the US Geological Survey, And it's probably difficult for most of us even to fathom eighty gallons of water, Like we can think eighty gallons of milk jugs, but I can't even think off the top of my head how much space that would
take up in my office as I'm sitting here. So even that level of water use is hard for people
to comprehend. And so when you start talking in the order of hundreds of thousands of gallons of water a day, I just don't think people can comprehend that, And so it's important to keep perspective, and so I always like to offer that, you know, I asked the question, do you know how much water the US as a whole withdraws from ground and surface water for different uses in a year, and people usually don't, And it's about three hundred twenty two billion gallons of water per day, which
is one hundred and seventeen trillion gallons a year. But so if you take that water use rate and compare it to golf. Golf is half of a percent of total US water use, and so it does sound like a lot of water when you're just told that, Hey, a golf course in the Western United States uses three hundred thousand gallons of water a day.
And I mean it is.
But if we get perspective, it's maybe it's maybe not quite the narrative that people try to sell it as.
So it's a proverbial drop in the bucket, is what you're saying.
I should have just said that, yeah.
In any case. But all right. So this is the case with a lot of environmental issues where convenient targets can be selected for, you know, to be characterized as wasteful. And when it comes to water usage, looking at a green golf course in the middle of a city or in the middle of a desert can be something to point to and say, you know, what are we doing here?
Why are we using water to keep that place green. Now, when it comes to golf courses in environments that are typically hostile to turf, like desert golf courses, I find myself having a bit of a hard time justifying that water usage and so I wonder what your reaction is to somebody kind of making distinctions between golf courses in environments where turf grass might more naturally and more easily occur, and golf courses in environments where maintaining that turf grass
is very like presumably it is in the desert. Do you think that is a useful distinction for people to make or are there other issues that we should be considering here.
So I absolutely think that's valid. I always think it's important to try to put yourself in the local environment where that problem is most prevalent, and so you know, you're right in one part. In some parts of the country, it takes a little less supplemental irrigation or a lot less to provide a golf course, and as you said,
in the deserts, it takes more water. And so in those situations, it's important for me to remember that it's that's kind of a local decision, and what are the trade offs and policies and other potential uses for water
in that environment. If the people say it's a public golf course, and the people want a golf course or that public green space, then you know, I think it's up to them to decide if that's a valid use of water of that resource, you know, for their community, and compare that to the other potential uses for the water.
I do think, especially in you know, the more arid, warm lands or environments for for a golf course, it's important to right away make sure that we have a logistical golf course, right that we're that we're minimizing the irrigation as much as possible, We're growing as little turf as possible, just to make sure that we're being really thoughtful about, you know, only using as much as we're using as little water is required to provide the playing
conditions of people want in that area, all right.
So just to set the table for how golf courses currently irrigate and how they might change some of those practices, I think it would be useful to talk a bit about the history of golf course irrigation. I know this is not necessarily your area of specialty, but just broad strokes, how has golf course irrigation changed from the beginning of the game to the present. I presume when golf began on the links Land that there wasn't really formal irrigation
going on there. There was some turf grass management. We know that old Tom Morris was very involved in kind of innovating that area. But can you give a general sense for how irrigation on golf courses developed from that point of like basically no irrigation to what we have today.
Yeah, yeah, I'll give it a shot here. And so, I mean from from I think that probably the earliest forms of irrigation where you know, horse charm, mule drawn carriages, wagons full of water, you know, with the hose or some other method of distribution where you're taking a wagon a water around the golf course and probably only watering the greens early on, and things like that. And then irrigation innovation has been pretty impressive and it's changed golf.
They've kind of evolved together in the in the United States and in the world really. But so after the horse drawn carriages, you know, you start to get the first sprinklers, you know at some point, and some buried pipe on the property with quick couplings that are underground. And so then instead of drawing or dragging a wagon of water around the property and watering it with a hose, you know, now you're taking a mobile sprinkler around and plugging it into a quick coupler and you know, maybe
that's just teasing greens at first. Eventually there's a row of pipe and couplers down the fairway so you can water different parts of the fairway as time goes on. And it was really, I think, you know, not until the nineteen thirties or so, when the pop up sprinkler that we're familiar with today was actually a reality where it's buried in the ground and is hooked to pipe and it pops up and can deliver water on demand
and automatically. That was another big innovation to kind of the electronic and hydraulic controllers that allow you to control the irrigation system from you know, areas besides where that specific irrigation head is. And then you know, after World War Two, you know, I think is when those kind of fully underground automated irrigation systems were becoming common. But
it wasn't. It still wasn't until the you know, sixties or seventies until we really started replacing a lot of these quick coupler based systems with irrigation systems that were you know, automated and buried underground. And then even at that point, you know, there's there's been different stages where you know, you might have one or two heads around a tee and you probably have the green pretty well covered, but then it's maybe just a single row of irrigation heads.
That was kind of you know, whenever I think about it, that's the oldest kind of irrigation system when it's fully automated and you have the sprinklers and everything. And then at some point we get two rows of irrigation heads in the fairways, and then you know, maybe the fairway gets bigger, maybe there's three rows of heads, and then you start to get the heads shown up in roughs and you see multiple heads show up around greens, so
you can irrigate the greens and the surrounds differently. And so the irrigate, the precision of irrigation has definitely grown, and the footprint that we're able to irrigate on demand has grown with time. And so you can see where that probably begets more water use, but you know, you can also take a step back and see where that allows some efficiency where just because the heads are there doesn't mean you have to use them all the time.
So, just talking about the present day, what are some of the reasons that golf courses might want to consider changing their irrigation practices.
So, one of the biggest challenges with irrigation is delivering the water where you want it, when you want it. And you could have had a top of the line system twenty years ago, and it's it's base level. It's not going to compare to the you know, the uniformity of the systems that are out today, and especially how it's you know, it's it's going to be less efficient just by virtue of time, right, and components wear out
and you know, maybe some deferred maintenance. And so when the goal is to deliver water where you want it, you want your tool, you want that arrow in the quiver to be to be efficient and provide the water where you want it, when you want it, and so that that can be a big challenge. And so it's the other component here is that playing conditions are better when it's drier. Right. In my opinion, nobody it's not really a lot of fun to be around on a
wet golf course. And so I think that it's important to remember that that conserving water just kind of meshes well with fun golf and so even if your motivation wasn't to conserve water, getting water where you want it, and only providing that amount to get your playing conditions, it's going to be easier if your irrigation system is well maintained and up to date. And so, you know, again,
I think it's important to remember that. I think superintendents are already very thoughtful about the way that they irrigate, and you know as and so I think we can be assured of that. And then just remember that, like we mentioned earlier, there's only going to be increasing demands for water in the future. And so if we already need to make some investments in the golf course and in the irrigation system to be able to deliver the water where we need it more efficiently, you know that
needs only going to increase with time. So I think it's a good time to start making the case if we need to make investments to improve irrigation efficiency.
So you sent me a few well established ways that golf courses can conserve more water and distribute water more efficiently, and maybe we could just talk about each in turn. I don't understand every bullet point on this list, so I'm curious to kind of find out exactly what this
would involve. And you know, I think this is a great thing for golfers because irrigation can be a bit of a mystery, and so I'm going to learn a lot in just figuring out what are the ways that an irrigation scheme can be improved and can be rendered more efficient. This is just something that golf course golfers rarely think about, but maybe should be thinking about in this era. So why don't we start with why don't
we start with precision irrigation. We've talked about that a little bit, but what are some of the ways that irrigation can be made more precise? And maybe you could just start by talking about what does it mean for irrigation to be more precise?
Yeah, and so there's there's two components here, and one that we already touched on a little bit, and that's just delivering the water where and how you want it. And so years ago, the sprinklers or irrigation heads that golfers will see were only able to be controlled on
a block. You know, you would turn on four or eight heads at a time, something like that, And so you're already losing resolution in terms of the hydrologic zone that might be present in a fair way, that could be on a slope in the wet or end of that slope. The lower end of that slope doesn't need the heads to come on, but the higher end you know they might, but you turn them on all at
the same time. So that's a lack of precision. So a big innovation was the valve in head control system, and that just means that you can control an individual head. You can turn on this sprinkler head without turning on all the others, and so that's that's a level of precision.
Golf course superintendents commonly take it even further. If you ever see your superintendent or their staff out hand watering putting greens, this is an exercise and irrigation precision because they irrigate the green to a certain level with the overhead irrigation system the sprinklers. That is, to provide you know, just enough water to make sure they're going to get
by for the day. Usually greens might be irrigated daily in the summer in certain instances to make sure they're not too wet, and then but as you start to get dry spots, especially in the heat of the day. That's when you see the crew out there with hose spot watering, and again that's just that's just a it's a it's a lowjack, but it's very, very definitely intended to be precision irrigation so that you're not overwatering a whole,
over overwatering the green. And so again, this is stuff like this I think people overlook when we talk about precision irrigation. It's fun to talk about the technology and the new things that are out there, but you know, precision precision management has been in the DNA of golf
course superintendents for a long time. For a long time, they've been treating greens a little bit differently because they know this one's in the shade and this one's south facing, and so that's really what it means is treating each area the way that it needs to be treated, given given its local conditions.
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irrigation system's maintenance. So you know keeping the irrigation systems themselves, I guess up to date and you know, making sure that they've been repaired and things like that. And then the second part of that is subsurface drip irrigation, which is again something that I don't know about, and so we'll find out about that. But let's start with the importance of maintaining irrigation systems and how that helps with
efficient water delivery. And I guess when you say efficient water delivery, you mean just like we're not wasting water in the process of getting it to where it needs to go on the golf course. Yeah, that's right.
And so you can imagine a scenario where if a irrigation system is poorly adjusted, you will overwater certain areas
and underwater others. And you can see this well, will may be able to see this if they see like an arc, a perfect arc or circle in a turf, and that's indicating that, you know, maybe the pressure is low or something where you're not getting what we aim for right now, which is head to head coverage, where that that sprinkler will throw water from its location to the next head and the other adjacent irrigation head or sprinkler is doing the same thing, and those together are
providing the precipitation rate that you're after. Right, That's how we talk about irrigation two is precipitation rate, because that's what we're out of or that's what we're trying to replace, and so so that that delivers a precipitation rate you're after. If one head is not throwing far enough for whatever reason,
then the precipitation rate is going to be light. And so you can you can start to see that if you see this kind of circular area and you just know that, you know, for whatever reason, the irrigation system is not adjusted well and the uniformity of the water delivery is is just not where it needs to be.
And that can be solved by, you know, often by just addressing the mechanism that delivers the water, making sure it's repaired, et cetera.
Yeah, I mean, so irrigation heads, you know, themselves, can go bad. It can be a pressure situation where there's not enough pressure to the head and that can that can be poor design or routing of the pipe. That can be a problem with the pump that's delivering the water to the system. It can be nozzles that are bad in the heads that are that are just not throwing the water the way they that the design intended. It can it can be a list of things. It can also be a very simple thing like having a
level sprinkler head. A sprinkler head needs to be level with the ground to make sure that it's and also not low and set below the surface. So if you've ever seen a sprinkler head, you know, hitting a tree or a bush or the ground or tall grass and not throwing water the way it's intended to, that that's affecting the delivery of water.
Yeah, welcome to my lawn outside, just like yeah, the irrigation heads are all over the place, all right. So subsurface drip irrigation is part of this question of efficient water delivery. What is subsurface drip irrigation? Is it a new thing? And is it something that not many golf courses have?
So it is not a new thing in relative terms, but it's also not something that a lot of golf courses use. There are some that have it in different locations. You might see it on bunker faces or things like that that are hard or difficult to water with sprinklers. But basically, what where you would most commonly see it, and I should correct myself. I bet a lot of golf courses do have it in landscaping beds because that's where that's where we see a lot of drip irrigation.
Even in residential settings, it's very common, and it's it's just this buried pipe, or it might be in the mulch of a planning bed and it has emitters or holes cut in the pipe, or there's a style of pipe that just kind of seeps where it's designed to kind of akin to a soaker hose if you ever have to water your foundation, depending on where you live in the country, and it's just putting water out at at at a rate that you want, and it's the water ideally is is not being exposed to the air.
It's it's it's just being emitted into the soil and then it passes through the soil by capillary flow. You know, water just flows from high to low concentration and you you you deliver the water to the root zone without ever having to throw it in the air. And so it's again it's traditionally been used in landscaping beds. It's we see it more and more in turf. It's it's I've seen it in you know kind of the turf islands.
We call them into suite in between a sidewalk and a curb where there's really no use for a sprinkler, the drip can be used there. And we've even funded some projects in recent years where people are experimenting with it on isolated tea boxes and saving a tremendous amount of water twofold because they're not again watering the surround of the tea, they're only watering the tea. And because of the efficiency of not losing water to evaporation and
just the really efficient delivery of the water. I mean, you can save up to eighty percent of water compared to sprinkler irrigation if you get that subsurface drip system tuned the right way. And so it's not without challenges. I mean in turf we also air eate, We punch holes in the ground, and we top dress, and we do all these things that could potentially damage this drip line.
And if you were going to irrigate a fairway, you would have to lay a lot of drip line because it's got to be you know, eight or so inches apart and just a few inches deep. And so it's not without challenges, but the efficiency is so great that I think we can overcome some of those challenges to use this as a as a more and more as a tool for water conservation and golf.
So my understanding of what you're saying is that the kind of traditional model of irrigating golf courses has depends did on these sprinkler heads that throw water into the air, and of course some of the water goes away and before it hits the turf, whereas subsurface drip irrigation it's it's almost like direct injection, like it it gets it, it's right into where it needs to be. But subsurface drip irrigation, if I understand correctly, has traditionally not been
used extensively with turf. Now would subsurface drip irrigation work best and kind of these sort of specialized applications as opposed to general coverage, what it work best in places like teeing areas and things like that.
I think that's a lot. So first of all, you thank you for explaining that better than me. That's exactly what drip irrigation is. And and yes, I think the first kind of good target for using drip irrigation are you know, bunker faces, Tea's things like that. But I
think we can go beyond that. I think I think we just have to take the step to especially where water is really precious and limiting in some geographies, you know, I think it's I think it's time to to to give it a try and and and use it a little more broadly for more broad coverage that part of the catches you you probably still need overhead irrigation. You probably still need sprinklers so you can water, infertilizer or other for other uses, or if you have to seed.
I think you can't. You can establish grass with drip irrigation, but it's you know, there are still times. I guess what I'm trying to say is where you might want that irrigation head, so you might end up having both. This might just be an add on to an existing irrigation system, but it could could really increase efficiency and I think the people that are using it now for turf irrigation on a golf course would really be considered innovative. Again, I don't want to give the message that it's not
out there. People are using it, but it's it's definitely one of the lesser used things that that has been known for a while.
All Right. So the remaining ways that courses can can serve more water that you sent me are things that I am a bit more familiar with than the kind of irrigation system fundamentals that that we've been talking about so far. These the rest of these things are things that golfers will actually see. One is efficient water storage.
This won't necessarily be a playing element on a golf course, but what you mean by this is capturing more water and you know, you know, building some infrastructure on the golf course so that you know, water that comes down naturally, can you know, sort of efficiently go to another place on the golf course, you know, like a basin or a pond or something like that, so that it can be captured there and it doesn't just go to waste.
So can you talk about how golf courses can more efficiently store water and then more efficiently divert water as well, and how this can help courses concern or more water.
Yeah, So I don't think I have much to add on the on the on the storage component. I think you characterize that well where you know, it's just it's just capturing what we can from natural precipitation so that we can use it for irrigation. And essentially you're creating a surface water that you're going to use to irrigate
the golf course. And and this is pretty common. And if you have this setup, you know, it's common for a golf course maybe to be able to supplement that that irrigation pond with municipal water if they need to, but many most of the time they may not need to do that. So I don't think I need to try to add anything there the diversion component, you know, for me, as always, we're just diverting the use of
what would have been potable water. And this has been about fifteen percent of golf courses, is our best estimate right now, use affluent water or recycled waste water for irrigation. And it's just you know, it's it's pretty salty water, but it's it's water that has been treated and so it's it's appropriate for you use for irrigation. And it just reduces the strain on the potable water supply.
And this might factor into something that we talked about last year when you were on the podcast which is ecosystem services that golf courses can provide. And I think that water storage, water diversion can contribute to these services that a golf course might provide the surrounding community, especially water storage. Could you talk about how water storage might actually be important for the area surrounding a golf course.
Yeah, that's a good point. And so especially during a storm event where you've got you've got a lot of water and it's going to go somewhere and maybe flood the community and flood some infrastructure. Golf courses are these green spaces that are you know, they're poorous that the water can infiltrate the soil, and so they can serve as kind of detention basins to to divert storm water from,
you know, infrastructure that might have otherwise flood. And we've been supporting some scientists that have been estimating the potential for golf courses to do that, and it is pretty interesting to see, especially in certain locations, how a golf course can provide that service to a community and help prevent some flooding.
Let's talk about drought tolerant grasses. These I mean, I don't know if I'm right or wrong about this, but I feel like I've been hearing more and more about drought tolerant strains of turf lately than I had at any time before. I know, these are becoming It's a huge topic among golf courses in California and other places that are struggling with drought right now. So what are some of the latest developments on the drought tolerant grass front.
You know, this is kind of part of the long game of improving drought tolerance and the water footprint of golf. When you know, there were a series of droughts in the seventies and eighties that really kind of led to the creation of the research program that I manage, and it was all one of the main initiatives was to
develop grasses that were more drought tolerant. And you know, fortunately for people in the Southern United States, these grasses have more or less kind of existed there for a while.
It's the Bermuda grasses of the world that I mentioned earlier that are just to have lower water use rates, but they've been continuously improved to have through breeding programs at universities and private companies to have better turf traits, you know, to grow more compactly to be you know, fine textured and dense and provide the golf conditioning that
we want. And then you mentioned California. That's another area that, especially along the coast, traditionally has been more cool season grasses. That the temperatures in that climate really favor cool season grasses, but the arid nature of the climate favors warm season grasses more. We would like to see water use efficiency and we're seeing lots of in the last few years, you know, lots of regrassing programs in in California and in the transition zone to where people are making the
change from cool season grasses. And you know, I think off the top, you can be pretty comfortable that a golf course is going to save about twenty five percent in water just from making that transition, and it could be more, and then they could have other you know, economic savings because these grasses tend to also you know, require a little less fertilizer, they have fewer pests, and so it's a compounding factor where it can be a good a good investment in many ways, even if the
original plan was just to reduce water use in some way and so that's where the developments have primarily been are trying to get these warm season grasses so they
can be used more locations. But I think we can you know, there's also been developments in cool season grasses for the northern United States because you know, we started talking about climate change and the fact that you know, the more northern parts of the United States are getting warmer, and so that's probably also helping with the adaptation of some of these grasses that are typically more southern grasses.
But you know, I think we can really focus a little bit more on drought tolerance and salinity tolerance and things like that, and cool season grasses as well, and probably make some gains to help the areas where currently the warm season grasses are not well adapted. And so that's that's definitely still a frontier and something we need to work.
On all right now. Overall, reducing the amount of irrigated plants, both turf and non turf. That is the other big front in trying to conserve water. So we've talked so far about you know, just making irrigation systems more precise and more efficient, capturing water, diverting water in efficient ways. We've talked about drought tolerant grasses. That's that's a big frontier. Reducing the amount of irrigated plants on a golf course is in many ways a design question, and so it
excites me a little bit. You know, this podcast is very much about golf course architecture and golf course design a lot of the times. And so when courses are looking to reduce the amount of stuff that they're irrigating, how do they typically go about that and what are some of the big questions that they need to ask?
Yeah, and so I think you're right, it is a design question, and it comes down to what's you know, what is a what is a golf course? And kind of philosophically, and if we look at you know, the numbers right now for land use on a golf course, a golf course is one hundred and fifty or some acres and eighty to ninety of that is maintained turf. But that's it's on the decline, and I think, you know,
this is where we'll probably see more of that. And so I think the consideration to your design point is, you know, where are the playing corridors, where are the golfers going? Where you need turf to to have the routing that's desired, and how do you want people to play that course? And where do you where do you
not need the turf? And where can where can you save And because we know that with taking turf out of the out of play and naturalizing it and in some way, you know, saves water and saves other resources and saves emissions because you're not gonna have to mow as much, and so it's it can be a benefit all around. I added other plants in there because you know, people I think sometimes think we're just going to turn off the sprinklers and and there you go. We've taken
turf out of play. And in most cases that's that's not going to be a desirable situation. There's going to be some type of redesign, regrading, re establishment of the area. Even in the West, it's often some zero component where there's you know, some dg some some zero plants, rocks, other things like that, and and you need to install irrigation for those plants as well. They're probably not going to thrive without a little bit of that drip irrigation
we talked about earlier. So there's an investment there as well, and plant material and infegation in irrigation infrastructure. So I guess it's just important to remember that that if you whatever you replace, you might still be using water unless you just go completely to a non vegetated landscape or or something that you're expecting to turn over and recover, you know, in the wet parts of the year and just go away in the dry parts of the year.
And there's some opportunities to do that. Some of the some of the desert grasses and things like that can can really tolerate an extended period of drought and then they recover very well when it rains for the for the amount of traffic and and the you know, esthetic that they're providing. So it's it's it's a nuanced question, but that that's where I come from on taking turf out of play and considering what that actually means for the golf course.
Yeah, some of what you're saying about, you know, what might replace turf for what might remain after you take out turf gets at a problem that superintendents have often brought up with me when I start talking about the wonders of naturalized areas, and often the reaction of superintendents is man, you don't know how much work it takes to maintain these supposedly naturalized areas, and so what are some of the challenges there and how can golf courses
address them? And you know, will it just take more labor? Are we replacing irrigation with just more labor? Or you know what, what are some of the consequences of going to naturalized areas as opposed to turf.
Sometimes, you know, from my perspective, where the natural And you're right, I guess I should say that just to go naturalized does not mean that it's going to be a no maintenance area or that you're never going to
have to touch it again. And that is something that's a common, you know, consideration we hear from superintendents, and I think I think some of the biggest challenges come when you go to a naturalized grass setting where you've got you know, you could have a really difficult situation for play where people are losing golf balls, it's hard to play out of there, and and it slows down play and and it's often difficult to control weeds in those situations because the you know, the chemistry or the
the herbicides, the tools you want to control the weeds, you know, maybe aren't a good fit for the naturalized grass that you have there. And so it can be extremely it can it can be difficult, and you know, people are even doing things to try to slow down the native grasses and in the way that they grow
to enhance playability. But then as you reduce kind of the the that natural grass that well, then then more weeds come in, and so then it's not esthetically pleasing, and so it's it's it's full of trade offs, and I think that that's why people just have to be really thoughtful about where these naturalized areas go and and what a what an area that you take out where
you remove turf should be. And it's often not just let it grow up to whatever wants to grow there, because that's not going to be something that I don't think golfers will enjoy and it'll be a pain for superintendent to manage. So it does have to be, you know, kind of a thoughtful, systemic approach to decide what to do with naturalized areas.
All right, So a lot of the issues that we've discussed today have to do with what golf course managers and golf course superintendents might consider for the future of their golf courses. But I mean, I think that a lot of the impetus for change in the golf course industry has to come from from players and from golfers, you know, looking at courses and asking questions about how they're maintained. And I'm not saying necessarily golfers need to be a pain in the butt to the gms and
the superintendents at their courses. But what are some of the things that you think the everyday golfer can start noticing or start asking about golf courses as they relate to water conservation. What are just some kind of simple, sort of actionable items simple. I shouldn't have said simple, because nothing about this is simple, But I mean, so at least some understandable things that you know, say you have your home course, and most golfers are not really
going to know are we conserving water? Are we using too much water? Or are we being as efficient as possible? And so what what can golfers do at their home courses to encourage more conservation?
Yeah, it's a it's a good question, and I think I think golfers can feel assured that whatever their situation, I would be pretty confident to say that their superintendent and their decision makers are delivering water in the most efficient way they can to produce the product or the conditions that golfers expect with the infrastructure that they have. And so the challenges with water conservation often come down to infrastructure, which we've spent along a lot of time
I'm talking about today, and expectations. And so if superintendent's buy and large know how and where they can save water, they just need in some ways the freedom and resources to do so. And so I think it's fair for golfers to ask these questions. I think it's important for
golfers to ask these questions. But I think they've also got to realize that, you know, the expectations of the clientele of the golfing body for a golf course determine how far a superintendent can go with, you know, letting things go a little brown and having variable expectations during a dry period. That could be a big way to
save a lot of water. Is just you know, understanding that drought will happen during the summer sometimes and we might have some turf dormancy but you know, we're going to irrigate enough to make sure it doesn't die and it'll come back when it rains again or when we're no longer in a water shortage. And so these types of recalibrations and expectations I think are really important to the discussion around water conservation, and as important are the
infrastructure questions you have to be able to. We're willing to invest and make sure that the golf course has what it needs in terms of irrigation and plant materials. You know, maybe it's time to regrass and get something that's more drought tolerant. Maybe it's time to take on a capital project and take some turf out of play, put in some new parts of an irrigation system, install some drip, and see what happens in terms of water conservation.
So again, I think totally fair and important questions that golfers should be asking, But I think they've got to remember that at the end of the day, it comes down to what the golf course has for infrastructure and what the expectations are for that golf course.
Now, from your perspective, as you're looking toward the future of the programs that you're helping run at the USGA. What are some areas of research related to water in golf that you're really excited about. What are the most potentially fruitful frontiers for advances that.
I appreciate that question. That's a good one, because I think there's a lot to be excited about right now.
We actually didn't talk about soil moisture meters, and you know how you know they can be used to even kind of that kind of they kind of provide that you know what your irrigation threshold is or what your drying threshold is, and that moisture meter is able to tell you that and tell you when it's dry, and it can tell you that quickly and in a site specific way, and so you can deliver water again only
when where it's needed. And I think that those types of projects where we were were kind of showing people how to better use some of these existing technologies and what that means for water conservation and the bottom line for a golf course at the end of a year. I think I think those can be really beneficial and impactful for the industry. Apart from that, I mean, I think we still we're going to continue down the breeding
realm of work and that workstream. The worst thing to do after you've improved any plant through breeding is to just stop, because you can keep getting a percent or two gains every year if you keep going. So twenty years from now, if we would have stopped, we would really probably regret that decision. And so I think you're going to continue to see us thinking about the long
game and trying to do that type of work. And then I really want to learn from other sectors within the agriculture industry and use some of these innovative technologies and sensory based systems that we're not using in turf right now, and I think we can find ways to apply them to where it will be really scalable to quickly make irrigation decisions without having to install a bunch of you So I'm west your sensors in the ground, and so I think those are the types of projects
that I'm most interested in and excited about. And really it comes down to just you know, managing as precisely as we can and being as informed as we can through data, and so we just want to find ways to enable that excellent.
All right, Well, it sounds like there is a lot to be worried about, but there's also a good deal to be excited about on the research front. I appreciate you coming back on the podcast again, Cale, and I guess when Earth Day twenty twenty three comes around, we'll have you back again. Maybe maybe we'll figure out another domain of your research to investigate. But thanks so much for coming on today. Appreciate it. Sounds great.
Kurt.
Thanks. This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast was edited by Meg Atkins. If you'd like to keep up with what we're doing at the Frida Egg and with general happenings in the golf world, subscribe to the Frida Egg newsletter. It's free, it comes out three days a week, and it'll keep you up to date with current events and golf. So go to the fridagg dot com click subscribe. Thanks for listening.
